Open mike 09/10/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, October 9th, 2014 - 169 comments
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169 comments on “Open mike 09/10/2014 ”

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  1. Sanctuary 1
    9 October 2014 at 7:41 am

    People who run around claiming DOC are poisoning our water with chemical warfare and getting generally hysterical about 1080 annoy the sh*t outta me.

    Why? because they are dullards, immune to science and reason, whose OTT hyperbole undermines the credibility of actually important environmental stuff like global warming and fisheries depletion and loss of habitat.

    Go.Away.You.Annoying.People.

    And that especially means you, the lady with the pamphlets in the next office along whose response when I asked her for credible scientific source for her anti-1080 rubbish declared I was a arrogant and stupid person who should ask all the dead trout and kiwis.

    Yeah, really scientific she is.

    • Tom Jackson 1.1
      9 October 2014 at 8:59 am

      Well, I guess someone who thinks dead trout and kiwi can talk has problems.

    • wyndham 1.2
      9 October 2014 at 9:16 am

      Such folk are always with us. Some don’t believe in the advantages of vaccination; others think that flouridation of water supplies will kill us. It’s OK to kill stoats to protect our native birds but cats are sacrosanct. The list is endless – – – some people are even agin the gummint.

      Reason doesn’t come into it and that’s what makes us the diverse and rich community that we are.

      Go 1080 I say !

    • vto 1.3
      9 October 2014 at 9:19 am

      The Ban-1080 Party got more votes than United Future.

      The Ban-1080 Party got more votes than ACT.

      The votes came from places where 1080 is most widely used.

      But yeah nah always believe the official line when it comes to chemicals eh … like we did with formaldehyde, like we did with 245T, like we did with asbestos, like we did with …… on it goes ……

      And yeah nah, that we are pretty much the last country to still not ban the shit is meaningless too …….

      And yeah nah, that DOC refuse themselves to use the shit in their kiwi areas is meaningless too …..

      always believe the official line eh yeah

      • lurgee 1.3.1
        9 October 2014 at 9:23 am

        ike we did with formaldehyde

        You mean thalidomide?

      • rawshark-yeshe 1.3.2
        9 October 2014 at 9:54 am

        kudos, vto .. well said

      • Chooky 1.3.3
        9 October 2014 at 10:32 am

        +100 vto…NZ takes 80% of 1080 world production!

        …made by a sole family company in USA

        …banned for years in environmentally aware Oregon

        …used very very sparingly in other States in USA

        …it is killing off the kea…it kills other birds including endangered kiwi…

        NZ needs to pay hunters to keep possums down….and needs to reinstate the publically funded Rabbit Boards to keep down rabbits on farmland

        • joe90 1.3.3.1
          9 October 2014 at 12:15 pm

          NZ needs to pay hunters to keep possums down

          Possum population – >30,000000.

          Nah.

          • vto 1.3.3.1.1
            9 October 2014 at 12:32 pm

            Weka is right below that 1080 seems to work. The problem is that it never completely works – there are always remnants which then reproduce the population again.

            What I think is needed is a combo of current approach plus a bounty on possums so the remainder can be taken out after a 1080 drop. Combo of 1080 and trapping/hunting post-drop to really clean out the catchments totally.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.3.3.1.1.1
              9 October 2014 at 3:49 pm

              The last time that bounty was used to cull possums we ended up with a worse situation as some hunters decided that they wanted to work closer to home and so spread the possums into areas where they weren’t.

              Personally, I think that the solution will be the infertility drugs that they’re working on but until then we get to use 1080 because nothing else is practical given the large area and rugged terrain.

      • wekarawshark 1.3.4
        9 October 2014 at 10:54 am

        “And yeah nah, that DOC refuse themselves to use the shit in their kiwi areas is meaningless too”

        The problem is that 1080 works. The kill of native species is more than offset by the increase in breeding and survival of those species over time, that’s the point. I don’t know what DOC do re the kiwi, but it makes sense to not use it in areas where you have failing populations of ground birds.

        I think the crucial question is how many of the anti-1080 people voted National? There is no way in hell that there will be less 1080 use so long as we have a govt that cuts funding to DOC.

        It also concerns me that 1080 is being used more and more by councils and even private property owners. It looks like there has been a change somewhere in how easily accessible it is, its price, and I’m guessing a push from consultants or sales reps. Has there been a change in regulations too?

        I’d also like to know if anyone is keeping a log of increase in use, and areas where it is being used.

    • wekarawshark 1.4
      9 October 2014 at 9:52 am

      “People who run around claiming DOC are poisoning our water with chemical warfare and getting generally hysterical about 1080 annoy the sh*t outta me.”

      Is it just the hysterical ones, or anyone who has criticisms of the 1080 use in NZ? Because it looked like you might just have said there are no valid critiques of 1080 use, which would be not hysterical so much as fundamentalist.

    • wekarawshark 1.5
      9 October 2014 at 9:57 am

      as an aside to the hysteria, I heard a rumour that one of the Nat MPs (from a previous govt I think) who approved 1080 use also had business connections to the manufacturer. Anyone know if that’s true or got more detail?

      • vto 1.5.1
        9 October 2014 at 10:05 am

        Don’t know but that would be in line with the National Party approach….

        Apparently though one of the main reasons it is being used is that the gummint bought tons and tons of the stuff, way more than was needed, quite some time ago and it is all too expensive to throw out. Perhaps linked to what you have heard weka..

      • Chooky 1.5.2
        9 October 2014 at 10:37 am

        i heard that an Act associated company lobbies and promotes it…dont know if this is true…try Catherine Isaac ‘Awaroa Partners’ ?

    • Chooky 1.6
      9 October 2014 at 10:54 am

      ‘North and South’ did a feature on 1080 debate and scientific evidence a number of years ago ….and really according to two USA scientists (PHDs in stats and environmental science) living at the time in NZ…. there has been no real scientific studies of the fall out from 1080 drops conducted in New Zealand .

      From their cursory studies they were appalled at NZ’s negligence!!!!.

      Personally i prefer to believe the evidence of NZ hunters and fishers and farmers…those who have lived in the drop zones….and my own observations…lack of bird calls , silent forests….no kiwi, no kea ( endangered bird species)…when once upon a time the bird call noise particularly at dawn was deafening…that is evidence!

      • b waghorn 1.6.1
        9 October 2014 at 12:12 pm

        I worked in Ohura for a farmer who went there in 1958 he said that until they 1080 d the bush pigeons were a rare site , I was there only two years ago and they were plentyful. Not very scientific but hard to argue with

        • wekarawshark 1.6.1.1
          9 October 2014 at 3:18 pm

          +1

          Every bit of bush I’ve been in that’s been 1080-ed has better bird life than the bush that doesn’t. The quiet bush effect is post the drop. But the pick up in wildlife happens in the years afterwards.

          However, 1080 isn’t the only option. There are other successful ways of controlling predators and they generally don’t kill native species.

          I’d like to see research done on possum bodies being left in the bush by fur pluckers and whether that is increasing rat and stoat populations. Or even some anecdotal evidence that the bodies are getting eaten.

          • b waghorn 1.6.1.1.1
            9 October 2014 at 3:48 pm

            Done a bit of possum control and yes they do get eaten , its a tough Job and asking trappers to carry out carcases is impractical lmo. I also had a good yak to a very experienced possum control guy recently and he reakoned they have improved there 1080 methods greatly and use a fraction per hectare that they used to.

            • wekarawshark 1.6.1.1.1.1
              9 October 2014 at 4:09 pm

              not all terrain is the same, so some body recovery is possible. The problem here is that the fur industry is trying to work to niche marketing in a market economy and that’s being done separately from pest control. Possum pluckers should be being paid to run stoat lines as well, and there is the opportunity to offer incentives to not leave bodies lying round. Getting a good skin price established would help too.

              “I also had a good yak to a very experienced possum control guy recently and he reakoned they have improved there 1080 methods greatly and use a fraction per hectare that they used to.”

              Interesting. Problem is, usage is going up and its being used in more and more places where it wasn’t before. It should be kept for situations where there really is no other option, like high conservation value areas that are inacessible.

              • b waghorn …
                9 October 2014 at 5:40 pm

                I agree ground control is best but as we can’t get NZ unemployed to pick apples or milk cows I can’t see them carrying heavy packs on trackless forest.

  2. Skinny 2
    9 October 2014 at 8:02 am

    Supreme High Commander John Key & his cohorts decides on whether to send New Zealand troops to war. No bipartisan decision by the whole of parliament, just a dictatorship call. Disgraceful breech of power could lead to a terrible terrorist attack on our shores, by Key saying “our SIS will provide targets for drones & airstrikes.” 

    Problem is a dampened down New Zealand society, like sheep they will follow the shepard to the slaughter house.     

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11339342

    • Chooky 2.1
      9 October 2014 at 10:26 am

      …will he send his own son?…I doubt it ! ( it is the acid test )

      (…even the Royals have their sons involved and at risk …not John Key)

      …will he go himself?….hell no!….he will just send OUR sons and daughters

      ….will he put all New Zealanders at risk of terrorist reprisals on our own shores?…YES!

      …. will he be held responsible?…YES!

      Helen Clark did not take us into the Iraq war…she is a hero

    • Murray Rawshark 2.2
      9 October 2014 at 10:22 pm

      This, along with all the corrupt behaviour exposed by Rawshark, really convinces me that we need a constitution. Going into an aggressive war should involve at least 2/3 of parliament, and everyone who votes for it should either have to go themselves, or nominate a close family member.

  3. ScottGN 3
    9 October 2014 at 8:10 am

    Stuff reporting that employment law reform is a third term priority for the government. Is this the term that Key’s backers call in the favours and push for lower wages? I guess we can kiss goodbye to the public holiday penalty rates that Clark restored during her time as PM
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10595483/Priorities-for-third-term-revealed

    • dv 3.1
      9 October 2014 at 8:26 am

      AND education reforms.
      What will that mean???

      • phillip ure 3.1.1
        9 October 2014 at 8:34 am

        smash the teachers-unions..and a serious roll-out of charter schools..

        ..and the other ‘reforms’ they have heralded..

        ..(that rustling-sound in the background you can hear..is the various factions of the right..

        ..writing up their wish-lists..for the next three yrs..

        ..they are gonna go apeshit/gangbuusters..)

        ..and is it too soon to adopt the phrase/catch-cry?..

        ..’don’t blame me..i didn’t vote for the bastards’..?..

    • Tracey 3.2
      9 October 2014 at 8:54 am

      They have been paying back in employment law for six years…

  4. Ad 4
    9 October 2014 at 8:19 am

    I would like the editors to consider inviting regular columns from the new Parliaments’ Green, Labour and NZFirst members.

    I think we can help prepare the ground for an alternative government.

    • phillip ure 4.1
      9 October 2014 at 8:30 am

      that wd be good..but the deal shd be that they also take/answer questions..

      ..not just do a seagull-appearance..

      ..then we cd ask the green whoever why they gifted peter dunnes’ seat to him..

      ..and for the umpteenth-time..

      • Skinny 4.1.1
        9 October 2014 at 8:45 am

        And Auckland Central ‘again’ mind you Labour messed them around on running on the same policy ticket like they do in OZ.

        • phillip ure 4.1.1.1
          9 October 2014 at 9:02 am

          yeah..and epsom…again/still..

          ..until they learn how to play-mmp together..nicely..!

          ..the left/progressives are screwed…

          ..the other option is to lower the threshold..

          ..but that ain’t gonna happen in the near future..

          ..and of course the simplest option is the nz first one..

          ..end progressive vote-splitting forever..

          ..and don’t stand electorate candidates..

          ..just have a clear/simple/single-option for anyone even slightly green..

          ..party vote is it..

          ..i dunno why they persist in that electorate-circus..

          ..i can’t work out for fucken why?..

          ..they have no chance of winning one..

          (unless they do a deal with labour..well cent…where robertson came third in the party vote..wd be an obvious candidate..)

          ..and they have to spend/expend all that money/energy in what is largely an exercise in futility..

          ….when a focused party-vote only campaign wd do as well..and likely better..

          ..’cos you wd end that problem of voters giving one vote to the green candidate..and their party vote elsewhere..

          ..it’s a no fucken brainer..really..

          ..(and the same message should/must apply to mana..in 2017..esp. in auckland..)

          • The Al1en 4.1.1.1.1
            9 October 2014 at 9:05 am

            “..i dunno why they persist in that electorate-circus….i can’t work out for fucken why?….they have no chance of winning one..”

            Maybe because you’re a bit retarded?
            To be able to participate in candidate meetings, to push the party vote only message, one has be listed as a candidate in the electorate race.

            “..it’s a no fucken brainer..really..”

            You’ve convinced me 😉

          • Skinny 4.1.1.1.2
            9 October 2014 at 9:23 am

            The problem is list only candidates are notorious for doing no work, Shane Jones was a classic example. Even Peters the same can be said. A electorate MP has to do some work locally is my point.

            • Tracey 4.1.1.1.2.1
              9 October 2014 at 9:28 am

              Might be true for lp, but not for greens

              • Te Reo Putake …
                9 October 2014 at 10:13 am

                More likely to be true of the greens, I would have thought. None of their MP’s have any tie to an electorate. The LP list MP’s have actually done a great job as buddy MP’s in the last few years, keeping up the party presence in Tory electorates and assisting in the smooth operation of the regional hubs. This may, in part, explain the LP’s good results in electorates this time round.

                • wekarawshark …
                  9 October 2014 at 10:32 am

                  “More likely to be true of the greens, I would have thought.”

                  That’s kind of a bizarre statement to make. The implication is that if you don’t have an electorate you have more time to twiddle your thumbs. Do you have any evidence that this is true of GP MPs, as opposed to them using that time to do other MP, parliamentary or party related jobs?

                  “None of their MP’s have any tie to an electorate.”

                  AFAIK the GP list MPs are involved in their electorates or wider rohe despite not being electorate MPs.

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    9 October 2014 at 10:41 am

                    That’s the point I was making Weka! Tracey assumed list MP’s do fuck all, and I gave an example of what they actually do (from my knowledge of the LP) and what success may have come from that. I’m not really slagging Green MP’s, but they don’t have the same relationship to the electorates as the LP MP’s do, not least because there’s only 14 of them to cover 70 seats and no Green MP has a realistic chance of winning an electorate, so their relationship is different.

                    If Tracey wanted a good example, she could have used NZF. Who knows what those people do to fill their days. Suduko? Crosswords?

                    • wekarawshark …
                      9 October 2014 at 10:47 am

                      Hmmm, I read Tracey’s comment to mean the other way, but I can see it’s a bit ambiguous. Your comment seemed to be pretty clearly saying that the GP MPs do less work because they’re not electorage MPs, and I’m asking for evidence of that (as opposed to assumptions based on FPP ideas of what MPs do). You also said that GP MPs don’t have ties to their electorates, which is plainly wrong.

                      You can reframe that diplomatically as the LP have a different relationship with their electorates than the GP, but it’s not valid to assume that means the GP MPs work less or have no ties. Of course the relationships are different. You just seem to not be appreciating those differences 😉

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      9 October 2014 at 11:05 am

                      Well, to follow the sequence, the original comment was skinny’s “The problem is list only candidates are notorious for doing no work …”

                      Tracey said that didn’t apply to the Greens, but maybe Labour Party list MP’s.

                      So, it was a wee backhander, presumably out of ignorance. I gave an example of what work I know LP list MP’s do and what positive outcome might be attributable to that work. I also suggested that because the GP has bugger all MP’s to cover 70 electorates and they are not serious contenders to win any electorate seat anyway, their relationship to the electorates would be different.

                      Does that make my thinking clearer? I genuinely believe the GP MP’s do work hard, but not so much on electorate issues, for practical reasons. ie former Green MP Sue Bradford isn’t remembered for her electorate work, but for making the lives of our children just a little but safer.

                      I also think that within the GP there may be issues about electorate representation anyway. My understanding is that the GP list is chosen on the basis of finding the best list MP’s and geographical representation is not a significant factor. If it was, Hamilton, for example, would have a Green list MP too.

                    • Tracey …
                      9 October 2014 at 1:04 pm

                      Tracey did NOT assume that at all. The poster above her did. This hatred and blame some here have for the greens for nats being back in is just bizarre… The person used shane jones as an example which suggested he/she was referring to the LP.

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      9 October 2014 at 1:16 pm

                      Hmmm. Must have been another Tracey that wrote “Might be true for lp, but not for greens”.

                    • wekarawshark …
                      9 October 2014 at 1:23 pm

                      There’s too much confusion
                      I can’t get no relief

                    • Tracey …
                      9 October 2014 at 3:20 pm

                      Might be true for lp, was a nod only to the comment skinny made about shane jones as his example of not working on the list…

                      Weka read my comment as I intended it, you didnt.

                    • Ron …
                      9 October 2014 at 8:57 pm

                      Well if its crosswords I bet they are not cryptic ones

                      If Tracey wanted a good example, she could have used NZF. Who knows what those people do to fill their days. Suduko? Crosswords

                • The Pink Postman …
                  10 October 2014 at 3:27 pm

                  The best example of a list MP who works very hard and is a credit to the Labour Party is Sue Moroney who,really deserves a safe seat but is dedicated to Hamilton.The two Hamilton MPs are not in the same class as Sue Moroney when it comes to working hard for the people of Hamilton.

              • Skinny …
                9 October 2014 at 10:19 am

                A broad statement I know however I can name a couple of GP slackers.

          • lurgee 4.1.1.1.3
            9 October 2014 at 9:26 am

            (unless they do a deal with labour..well cent…where robertson came third in the party vote..wd be an obvious candidate..)

            But Robertson was elected by the voters of Wellington Central, with an increased majority. They obviously quite like him.

            • phillip ure 4.1.1.1.3.1
              9 October 2014 at 9:41 am

              yes..my anti-robertson for leader bias was clearly showing thru there..

              ..but you get my point..i hope..

            • miravox 4.1.1.1.3.2
              9 October 2014 at 3:21 pm

              “They obviously quite like him.”

              Yeah – nah. I voted for him because he was the Labour candidate, not because I like him.

          • The Lone Haranguer 4.1.1.1.4
            9 October 2014 at 10:09 am

            If they are too dopey to do a deal and vote strategically Phillip, whatever makes you think that they could:

            1) write a decent column that resonates with the readers (aka potential voters) ?
            2) understand your question regarding strategic voting?
            3) construct a half decent reply that explains why they didnt vote strategically?

      • The Al1en 4.1.2
        9 October 2014 at 8:52 am

        “..then we cd ask the green whoever why they gifted peter dunnes’ seat to him…. for the umpteenth-time..”

        So the green party are responsible for how some voters in Dunne’s electorate cast their vote? Typically very unfair singling out green voters and their party, but as each vote is our own, we have to accept we can’t use others votes for them.
        For example, mip supporters should have voted for the labour candidate in rotorua and gotten rid of Flavell, but they didn’t, however, It would be churlish to blame the mip party for their voters error, even if mip didn’t publicly announce the vote switch tactics… Unless you have an ulterior motive or are a bit of a mongo*.

        * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongo_(Blazing_Saddles)

        • Tracey 4.1.2.1
          9 October 2014 at 8:57 am

          Plus 1

          And conveniently leaving out TTT and labour ruling greens out of cabinet.

          If the green party is the enemy of the Left some people need to clear the mist before their eyes

          • phillip ure 4.1.2.1.1
            9 October 2014 at 9:05 am

            good one tracey..!

            ..so we’ll just do it all again in 2017..eh..?

            ..that’s be real fucken clever..wouldn’t it..?

            • The Al1en 4.1.2.1.1.1
              9 October 2014 at 9:09 am

              Single issue – Check
              Hammer – Check

              🙄

              • Tracey …
                9 October 2014 at 9:17 am

                When he directly addresses you he is not engaging in dialogue by which he means he intends having the last word, or period.

                Its all the greens fault. Labour chose nzf as its pre election fuck buddy. Lp chose to state greens wldnt get cabinet position in labour led govt. Lp deprive the left of 3-4 seats through their TTT decision… Greens didnt campaign for party vore in epsom or ohariu. ?. But dunne and goldsmith are the greens fault for being so selfish.

                Hope that clears it up….

                • phillip ure …
                  9 October 2014 at 9:20 am

                  once again..with yr words..you astound me that you actually trained as a lawyer..(and passed..(!)..)

                  ..you clearly cannot understand/comprehend what i am saying..?

                  ..were you away the day they explained vote-splitting to those other dewy-eyed law-students..?

            • Tracey 4.1.2.1.1.2
              9 October 2014 at 9:13 am

              Who did you party vote for

              • The Al1en …
                9 October 2014 at 9:21 am

                Party vote green, electorate Sue Moroney as a privateer tactical vote.

                • Tracey …
                  9 October 2014 at 9:25 am

                  Cool. Thanks. ?pee ewww.. Voted IMP, is that your recollection?

                  My question was for peeee ewwww tho.

                  • The Al1en …
                    9 October 2014 at 9:27 am

                    Well it’s out in the open – A greenie didn’t for the green electorate candidate, putting the tactical voting onus on the vote giver. And I didn’t even need to be told by politicians or wannabe hack pundits how to cast my votes.

                    I don’t think he voted at all, I think he got the election result he wanted in order to continue his anti green campaign for months after the fact as well as before.

                    • Tracey …
                      9 October 2014 at 9:31 am

                      Its a bit odd, because had the LP been more accomodating of the greens, imp and understanding of MMP we might have some kind of leftish govt today…

                    • Te Reo Putake …
                      9 October 2014 at 10:26 am

                      “Its a bit odd, because had the LP been more accomodating of the greens, imp and understanding of MMP we might have some kind of leftish govt today…”

                      Can you expand on how the LP could have been more accommodating to the Greens, Tracey? I would have thought explicitly offering them cabinet posts was pretty positive. I’m sure Cunliffe would have preferred a 2 party coalition, but the numbers were never there for that, so NZF had to be the 3rd leg of the stool. No way to avoid that, unfortunately.

                      As for IMP, they reaped what they sowed, as KDC has acknowledged. Their fundamental strategic mistake was delegating the political campaign to the IP. If Hone had control of the process, I think he’d still be an MP. Laila Harre’s mistake was not taking control within the IP. KDC should have been following her plan, not the other way around. And, tactically, if they wanted a deal in the north, it was up to them to do something about it. Months ago, in fact. They needed to approach Labour and put a case for cooperation. They didn’t, and they lost everything as a result.

                    • Tracey …
                      9 October 2014 at 1:10 pm

                      Didnt labour reject the green party approach to pre election cooperation.

                      The greens cost labour nothing. Labout achieved nothing all by themselves

                    • wekarawshark …
                      9 October 2014 at 4:21 pm

                      “And, tactically, if they wanted a deal in the north, it was up to them to do something about it. Months ago, in fact. They needed to approach Labour and put a case for cooperation. They didn’t, and they lost everything as a result.”

                      You’ve said that before, but everything in the public domain suggests otherwise (that Labour would in no way do concession deals). So unless you can provide some back up to your belief I think it will have to be wishful thinking.

                      If Labour were so open to working with other parties why didn’t they work with the GP when it was offered? (am guessing you will somehow make this the GP’s fault).

                    • wekarawshark …
                      9 October 2014 at 4:26 pm

                      “I’m sure Cunliffe would have preferred a 2 party coalition, but the numbers were never there for that, so NZF had to be the 3rd leg of the stool. No way to avoid that, unfortunately.”

                      I know this is an unpopular view, but fuck Peters. He’s basically been holding the country to ransom for twenty years. I think NZF will be a useful part of the NZ political landscape once Peters is gone (or at least I hope they will). But at the moment he basically says that people on the left of Labour are to be disenfranchised because they’re not like normal NZers. That’s anti-democratic. He’s also an arch manipulator and uses his power in ways that too many people admire but can’t cope with personally.

                      Labour’s problem isn’t a 3 legged govt, it’s that they still believe that having power is more important than effecting change. Hence all this interminable dithering about whether to go to the centre or not.

        • phillip ure 4.1.2.2
          9 October 2014 at 9:12 am

          @ allen..

          ..no..dur-brain..if the greens don’t stand a candidate..dunne is gone..

          ..he won by 700 votes..

          ..the green candidate got over 2,500 votes..

          ,.i’m sure even a person with yr limited intelligence/comprehension-skills cd do that basic-math..eh..?

          ..(and no..i am not commencing a dialogue with you..resume normal position..!..)

          • The Al1en 4.1.2.2.1
            9 October 2014 at 9:24 am

            “..(and no..i am not commencing a dialogue with you..resume normal position..!..)”

            To be fair, that’s a bonus not a penalty.

            “.i’m sure even a person with yr limited intelligence/comprehension-skills cd do that basic-math..eh..?”

            My comprehension is just fine, it’s appears it’s you who has the limited grasp on the reality of the political scene in NZ.

          • Chooky 4.1.2.2.2
            9 October 2014 at 10:15 am

            pu..you are funny!

            …and it seems like The Allen has taken bad12’s place as your sparring partner

            • Tiger Mountain 4.1.2.2.2.1
              9 October 2014 at 10:28 am

              bad12–when he was truly bad he was very bad indeed…

              “he who makes a beast of himself takes away some of the pain of being human”

            • Te Reo Putake 4.1.2.2.2.2
              9 October 2014 at 10:30 am

              Only because I can’t be arsed, chooky! I’m waiting for Phil to follow through on his announcement a couple of days ago that he was cutting back on his contributions here. No sign of it yet, sadly. Open Phil is still littered with his pipe dreams.

              However, I do agree with him about Ohariu. WTF were the Greens thinking?

              • Chooky …
                9 October 2014 at 10:41 am

                @TRP…yes agree about Ohariu also

                and phil is great entertainment value …..and i often agree with what he says…even although i have had a few run ins with him myself

                ( and he has put me off my chops….bugger!)

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  9 October 2014 at 10:50 am

                  Yep, the other thing I agree with him on (though his vegan righteousness is a bit OTT).

                  Edit, just remembered I wrote this in my first ever post on TS:

                  “To put it simply, you cannot be a socialist, a greenie or any kind of progressive and eat meat.”

                  Maybe Phil and I have more in common than I thought!

                  http://thestandard.org.nz/world-vegetarian-day-october-1st/

                  • wekarawshark …
                    9 October 2014 at 11:01 am

                    “To put it simply, you cannot be a socialist, a greenie or any kind of progressive and eat meat.”

                    That’s quite a statement there TRP. I would say that you cannot be a socialist, a greenie or any kind of progressive if you believe it’s impossible to eat meat ethically, or that it’s wrong to eat meat irrespective of context.

                    It’s pretty easy to argue that being vegan does more damage than eating meat, or vice versa, but of course it depends on what the vegan or omnivore is eating.

                    Eating imported, monsanto-sponsored, commercially processed soy from overseas does far more damange than eating a rabbit that was killed anyway by a local farmer doing pest control.

                • phillip ure …
                  9 October 2014 at 2:26 pm

                  @ chooky..

                  “..( and he has put me off my chops….bugger!)..”

                  ..excellent..!..(said while rubbing hands in monty burns style..)

                  • Richard AKA RAWSHARK …
                    9 October 2014 at 6:29 pm

                    Can you live on peanuts? There is not enough vege”s I like> I loathe eating meat< but fat tastes so nice specially fatty bacon

                    I was a vegetarian for years as a teenager and early 20's aenemic (can't guess spell check on that word.)as a ghost.

                    Peanuts to save the animals. i'll waste way working on that diet.

                    PiE!

                    😛

                    • Murray Rawshark …
                      9 October 2014 at 11:16 pm

                      Anaemic.
                      A vegan friend of mine was recently in Cambodia for a few months. She couldn’t stay healthy on a vegan diet with what was available there and began to eat a little meat besides her regular diet of pussy. Made me wonder how much being vegan is a first world privilege.

                    • wekarawshark …
                      9 October 2014 at 11:26 pm

                      Indeed. It’s actually pretty hard to sustain a vegan diet if you grow your own food or eat locally. Some people will be able to do that in a powerdown world, but most will not.

                      I think the reason why there are virtually no vegan cultures is that you can’t keep the species/tribe going on a vegan diet either (hmm, that might be the best pro-vegan for Westerners argument I’ve come across)

              • The Al1en …
                9 October 2014 at 10:51 am

                “However, I do agree with him about Ohariu. WTF were the Greens thinking?”

                Labour did reject the green party advance for closer electoral cooperation, so I guess it was everyone for themselves in the end, though I’m quite sure a number of green party voters gave their vote to labour to unseat pd and elsewhere up and down the country like I did.

                “Only because I can’t be arsed”

                I get the same feeling, partly out of boredom, having to rebuff the frequent same old same old, and partly out of fear of being linked to banned members who wrote nasty sh!t to a female mod.
                But then it’s not about me (even though it is), so I too pick my moments these days.

                I hope he puts his egoism in check, broadens his world view and stays, but he needs much better material.

          • NeutObserver 4.1.2.2.3
            9 October 2014 at 11:12 am

            @Mr Ure: don’t you see the Green Party fielded a candidate not to help Labour but to compete against it?

            The Greens sole interest is to become the largest opposition party to national and they could well achieve their objective.

            • The Al1en 4.1.2.2.3.1
              9 October 2014 at 11:19 am

              “The Greens sole interest is to become the largest opposition party to national and they could well achieve their objective.”

              Looking at the divide in labour, with the dinosaurs and righties circling like pterodactyls and vultures in the ascendency, one can only hope so.
              Would be nice to have a left of center party as official opposition, rather than the disaster we’ve had since 08

            • greywarshark 4.1.2.2.3.2
              9 October 2014 at 4:09 pm

              @ Newt Observer 11.12
              so-called Neut what do you know about the Greens? The Greens sole interest is to become the largest opposition party to national If they had concentrated on just growing the size of the party as their sole interest, they would not have been able to achieve so many useful, good things for our society. Of course they are interested and welcoming of supportive membership. But they have possibly been going since before you were born, and achieved much.

              Just so that you can think about something different. Here is a discussion about the word ‘newt’. It is as irrelevant as your remark is.
              http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=NEWT

            • Murray Rawshark 4.1.2.2.3.3
              10 October 2014 at 12:35 am

              I am beginning to doubt your neutrality. My doubts increase every time you post. I think you are either very bad at spelling Tory, or the neutral bit is dishonest.

    • b waghorn 4.2
      9 October 2014 at 11:45 am

      I don’t know much about politics but I do know you would be mad to rely on NZ first to change government

  5. greywarshark 5
    9 October 2014 at 9:19 am

    What about the story that Maori graduate nurses can’t get work. Some have trained because they knew there was need for them in their rohe but can’t find a place that will employ them. Some going to Australia, for experience, some still looking after a year.
    Shouldn’t the grant to Maori for their particular self-help of their people be used to grab these dedicated trained people exactly right for the mission?

    And a comment from Min of health or some bureaucrat that the waiting time for the Maori nurses is not longer than for any others. How strange – that we can’t find work for such valuable people.

    I am sure there are many older nurses who would think of working part-time if they could receive early super to top up their salaries. They could start off mentoring these young nurses who apparently need experience to be fully useful, and then go onto part-time, perhaps job sharing with others of similar experience. That would keep experienced people in the pipeline, and enable younger ones to enter prepared for the responsibility of the special workplace that hospitals are. In that way we would be using our work force efficiently, and it would be a win-win situation.

    • Colonial Rawshark 5.1
      9 October 2014 at 9:31 am

      There is plenty of work available for teachers and nurses; our current system and leadership refuses to provide the funding to turn that work into paying jobs, however.

    • Ergo Robertina 5.2
      9 October 2014 at 10:03 am

      Yes it’s mad given nearly half of nurses are aged over 50. There is a huge hole looming when the baby boomers retire, but it seems DHBs are driven by short term considerations that allow them to look no further than the end of the next financial year.

  6. Pat O'Dea 6
    9 October 2014 at 9:32 am

    As John Key crawls up to the US with his offer of Kiwi cannon fodder for the Syria/Iraq meat grinder of US construction.

    In a show of false bravado the Prime Minister tries to justify his craven subservience to the US super power.

    Reprisal threat won’t sway PM on terror

    “If you weren’t prepared to do anything solely on the basis of that [increased risk], then you actually start losing your independent foreign policy because by definition you’re saying that the actions of terrorists will stop you standing up to those terrorists.”
    John Key Stuff.co.nz, September 9, 2014

    However, just a little change to this Stuff.co headline, and a couple of changes to his following quote, better reflects the truly servile character of our Prime Minister, over a perceived risk to our trading relationship with America.

    To illustrate my point, let me paraphrase the Prime Minister’s above quote;
    ‘If you weren’t prepared to do anything solely on the basis of that [increased risk], then you actually start losing your independent foreign policy because by definition you’re saying that the actions of [Americans] will stop you standing up to those [Americans].’

    In 2003, with just the slightest perceived threat to our trading relationship with the US, John Key delivers a hysterical screaming speech demanding we go to war.

    Reprisal threat will sway John Key on trade

    “Our traditional allies are in there, (in this agreement). We, in our name are missing.

    MIA, just like it was in the war in Iraq. Missing.

    And this country will… This country will pay for that, don’t you worry about that. Don’t you worry about that!

    There will be no free trade arrangement here in New Zealand.

    There will be one thing we won’t have to worry about, that is container ships going to America, because there will none of them leaving from out of this country, because there will no free trade arrangement……”
    John Key

    (Thanks to Travellerev @ A Wider Perspective)

    • Pat O'Dea 6.1
      9 October 2014 at 11:05 am

      John Key weighs Kiwi cannon fodder on the free trade scale.

      Money – Lives, Money – Lives,

      Which will John Key choose?

      Rather than a tough on terror hard man that John Key tries to portray himself as, Key reveals himself as an unprincipled toady, who rather than defending New Zealand’s hard earned independent foreign policy is prepared to sell it to the highest bidder.

    • Murray Rawshark 6.2
      10 October 2014 at 12:39 am

      “Don’t you worry about that” was one of Joh Bjelke-Petersen’s favourite phrases. That’s not the only similarity. Key may well go down in history as our Bjelke-Petersen.

  7. paddy 7
    9 October 2014 at 9:38 am

    Read the following and weep.
    http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2014/electorate-60.html
    Grant Robertson ran a token PV campaign but concentrated on his personal vote. He merely gave lip service to the PV to have plausible deniability.
    He gained a massive 19,807 personal votes but a miserable 9,306 PV.
    Apples will bleat that the electorate lost Wadestown but proportionately it lost as many National and Green votes as Labour ones. Thus no net change.
    Robertson wanted Cunliffe to lose so that Robertson could take over the leadership. Such treachery should be noted and he should be purged from the Party.

    • phillip ure 7.1
      9 October 2014 at 9:47 am

      “..@ paddy..

      “..Robertson wanted Cunliffe to lose so that Robertson could take over the leadership..”

      (plus one..)

      ..him and all those other rightwing-ratbags in labour..doing all they can to ensure defeat..

      ..their personal ambitions/political-games outweighing the/any good to the labour party..

      ..let alone the voters/country..

      • Pat O'Dea 7.1.1
        9 October 2014 at 11:14 am

        No doubt their personal careers and parliamentary Super continue just as well in opposition as it does in government. With the added benefit that they don’t have to do anything to earn them.

        They cannot advocate winning strategies or policies because they have no vision.

        Having no vision they are scared of taking power, because they wouldn’t know what to do with it.

        Having no vision they are at the mercy of every corporate lobbyist, and conservative civil servant.

      • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 7.1.2
        9 October 2014 at 6:33 pm

        If Robertson wins over Little and Cunliffe both experienced ministers where Robertson is green as the day is long, Seriously, i’ll vote National next Election.

        and as a NAtional voter(NOT) i’ll wait three years hope no one remembers this and not vote National. 🙂

    • Hami Shearlie 7.2
      9 October 2014 at 10:01 am

      +1

  8. coaster 8
    9 October 2014 at 9:47 am

    1080. Is a poison that kills mammals, including very large mammals very effectively.
    when it is dumped in your town water supply catchment, and out the back of your property you have valid reasons to be concerned.
    im yet to see anyone in favour of it mix a small amount in a glass, leave it to settle for a day and then give it too someone close to them to drink.
    if they do that, then I might beleive the scientific research supplied by non independant sources.

    on another matter, can someone explain to me the process whaleoil used to get the labour party members details from the labour website. Also what assurances do we have that those who received the data wont use credit card details for there own personal gain. Also was there any recomendation from labour about changing financial details?

  9. music4menz 9
    9 October 2014 at 9:50 am

    I see contributors are continuing to fight the 2014 elections. Move on, guys- only another 3 years till 2017!

    Little for Labour leader!

    • Te Reo Putake 9.1
      9 October 2014 at 9:57 am

      Feel the fear, folks.

    • Skinny 9.2
      9 October 2014 at 11:58 am

      It’s off to war we go, orders of the despot dictator John Key. Go enlist Music Man follow your great leaders orders into battle, don’t forget to post regular updates and change ya name too SISmusicman. Just make sure you know how to read a compass, it would be a real shame if you dialed a drone strike in on yourself…or would it?

      • Murray Rawshark 9.2.1
        10 October 2014 at 1:08 am

        Maybe Obama promised to let Key nominate a drone target or two? He could wear his AB uniform while he gives the order. Could be more addictive than smack.

  10. phillip ure 10
    9 October 2014 at 9:57 am

    “..10 Surprising Things You Didn’t Know About the History of Pot..

    .Did Henry Ford actually develop a hemp-based automobile?..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.alternet.org/drugs/10-surprising-things-you-didnt-know-about-history-pot

    • Murray Rawshark 10.1
      10 October 2014 at 1:12 am

      Umm, no. He apparently made a prototype that had body panels of something like fibreglass, but made from hemp and other fibres. It’s hardly accurate to say the car was based on it.

  11. NeutObserver 11
    9 October 2014 at 10:11 am

    What is Stuart Nash doing and who is behind him?
    http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/labour-mp-nash-wanted-own-party-2014100822

  12. wekarawshark 12
    9 October 2014 at 10:17 am

    Insightful piece about trole culture, from someone involved in geek/tech early on. It’s in the context of gender trole-ing, but takes in a whole range of issues that affect everyone. Although it’s different than Dirty Politics, I thought about Slater quite a bit as I read, could see many overlaps, similar techniques and similar world views.

    http://seriouspony.com/trouble-at-the-koolaid-point

    • Tracey 12.1
      9 October 2014 at 1:18 pm

      Given the hager raid, i wonder if those stories allegedly being compiled based around rawshark emails will ever actually materialise?

      Thanks for the link weka

      “.From the hater’s POV, you (the Koolaid server) do not “deserve” that attention. You are “stealing” an audience. From their angry, frustrated point of view, the idea that others listen to you is insanity. From their emotion-fueled view you don’t have readers you have cult followers. That just can’t be allowed.

      You must be stopped. And if they cannot stop you, they can at least ruin your quality of life. A standard goal, in troll culture, I soon learned, is to cause “personal ruin”. They aren’t all trolls, though. Some of those who seek to stop and/or ruin you are misguided/misinformed but well-intended. They actually believe in a cause, and they believe you (or rather the Koolaid you’re serving) threatens that cause. “

  13. Morrissey 13
    9 October 2014 at 10:39 am

    “They’re offensive and they attack people, but they’re so BRILLIANT!”
    Television One Breakfast, Thursday 9 October 2014, 8:35 a.m.

    We join the mirthful chatterboxes shortly before the 8:30 news…..

    NADINE CHALMERS-ROSS: Ha ha ha ha ha!
    ALI PUGH: He he he he he!
    RAWDON CHRISTIE: Ha ha ha ha ha! …..[Several seconds of vacuous silence as the team gathers its breath]…. Coming up soon: we have EVIDENCE that the Top Gear incident with the number plate in Argentina was not entirely innocent. They KNEW what they were doing! Ha ha ha!
    NADINE CHALMERS-ROSS: Ha ha ha ha ha!
    ALI PUGH: He he he he he he he!
    RAWDON CHRISTIE: Hey, um, now Sammy, I wanna ask you about the Jeremy Clarkson Argentina number plate incident, because we now have evidence that they KNEW what they were doing.
    SAM WALLACE: Oh NO! Hur hur hur hur hur!
    RAWDON CHRISTIE: But we’ll do that after the weather.

    Sam Wallace spends a couple of minutes delivering the weather forecast, but he’s obviously burning to find out about the number plate evidence….

    SAM WALLACE: Yeah, so whaddya got? Whaddya found?
    RAWDON CHRISTIE: Well, you remember that stunt in Argentina where they were attacked because they had that number plate H982FKL.
    SAM WALLACE: [snorting with mirth] Which we KNOW was more than coincidence! Yeah.
    RAWDON CHRISTIE: Here it is. [He holds up a picture of the BMW with the number plate H982FKL] Anyway, Jeremy Clarkson and the BBC said “No! It was all a terrible misunderstanding!”
    SAM WALLACE: Hur hur hur hur hur!
    ALI PUGH: He he he he he!
    RAWDON CHRISTIE: Well, they’ve found ANOTHER number plate!
    SAM WALLACE: Oh, NO! Hur hur hur hur hur!
    RAWDON CHRISTIE: Here it is! [Holds up picture of a number plate, BELLEND]
    SAM WALLACE: Hur hur hur hur hur! “BELLEND”! Yeah, I get it!
    ALI PUGH: He he he he he he he!
    SAM WALLACE: Hur hur hur! Yeah!
    RAWDON CHRISTIE: The plan was to go out and get abused by some Argentinians for the first plate, and then they would replace it with the BELLEND plate!
    SAM WALLACE: Yeah, very funny. Not innocent though! Look, to be honest, they’re storytellers. They’re offensive and they attack people, but they’re so BRILLIANT!
    RAWDON CHRISTIE: That’s right! They often attack people, but they’re just BRILLIANT!
    ALI PUGH: They’re just so FUNNY!
    RAWDON CHRISTIE: Hard not to love them!
    SAM WALLACE: Yeah!
    ALI PUGH: They do it VERY WELL!

    …..[Extended awkward vacuous silence]…..

    RAWDON CHRISTIE: Anyway. ….[Another few moments of awkward vacuous silence]….So, the Rolling Stones are coming to Auckland…..

    If you can bear it, here’s some more idiocy from this lot…..
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-17072013/#comment-663905
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02102013/#comment-704507
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-05122013/#comment-740099
    http://thestandard.org.nz/tuwhera-mike-06022014/#comment-769085

    • ropata mako shark 13.1
      9 October 2014 at 12:36 pm

      too much watching that stuff will lower your IQ mate.
      these people are hired for their charisma on camera (and to support whatever bullsh1t the network is selling),
      not for their brains

  14. cogito 14
    9 October 2014 at 10:53 am

    Top Gear should have gone to the Falklands instead – then they could have engaged in every form of anti-Argie insult they liked and they would have been absolutely adored by everyone.

  15. Not a PS Shark Sashimi 15
    9 October 2014 at 11:08 am

    Andrew Little has throw his hat in the ring. Announced on Radio Live.

    • Bill 15.1
      9 October 2014 at 11:20 am

      Well, well, well. That changes things somewhat. Now, if somebody can perfect some kind of Vulcan mind meld so that we have the sharpness of Cunliffe and the staunchness of Little in one entity….

      • adam 15.1.1
        9 October 2014 at 12:08 pm

        You forgot Charisma

        • Bill 15.1.1.1
          9 October 2014 at 12:16 pm

          It’s widely acknowledged that charisma is an unavoidable side effect of the mind melding 😉

          • adam 15.1.1.1.1
            9 October 2014 at 12:23 pm

            I’ll get the Enterprise warmed up then.

            • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 15.1.1.1.1.1
              9 October 2014 at 6:40 pm

              If you can warm up the Enterprise, then get scotty to beam us all the fuck out of here before Planet key explodes.

      • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 15.1.2
        9 October 2014 at 1:20 pm

        sharpness of Cunliffe and the staunchness of Little in one entity

        speaking of which, why is it such a bad idea for the deputy to be chosen from similar kind of wide membership-affiliates-caucus voting?

        • lprent 15.1.2.1
          9 October 2014 at 2:09 pm

          Nah, imagine the scenario where your bitterest rival winds up as your deputy.

          • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 15.1.2.1.1
            9 October 2014 at 2:49 pm

            Mmm, the scenario you point out could be the outcome of only caucus’ votes being determinative, as well as being the outcome where the wide membership-affiliates-caucus have all had a say. Would the latter be worse than the former?

          • DoublePlus Good 15.1.2.1.2
            9 October 2014 at 3:18 pm

            I think you’d make a terrible supervillain. Your bitterest rival should of course end up as your Grand Vizier, in full knowledge that he wants to topple you and will undermine you at every turn.
            Setting your Key enemies up as your deputy (or Granting them the leadership of a patsy opposition…), you can arrange things so that it will be worse for your rival if they try to topple you. You can also make it worthwhile for them to off your less bitter rivals, and get them to fight amongst themselves (with no Little amount of Whaleing and Nashing of teeth) instead of challenging you. That saves you a lot of Labour in the long term.
            But of course, that’s probably not your style because you know, you have ethics.

        • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 15.1.2.2
          9 October 2014 at 6:41 pm

          @kiwiri

          That would be Mallard wouldn’t it.

          Grabs popcorn, sits back.

  16. paddy 16
    9 October 2014 at 11:08 am

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2782906/The-terrible-truth-cannabis-British-expert-s-devastating-20-year-study-finally-demolishes-claims-smoking-pot-harmless.html

    The cannabis nutters need to read the evidence of harm. The Greens and Internet party need to drop their anti-scientific policies on cannabis.

    • Morrissey 16.1
      9 October 2014 at 11:12 am

      So, Paddy, are you railing against alcohol as well? And if not, why not?

      • The Lone Haranguer 16.1.1
        9 October 2014 at 12:06 pm

        So your argument is that because alcohol is dangerous, and legal, dope which is also dangerous, should also be legal??

        I suspect we should be thankful that one dangerous product is illegal and we should try to reduce the influence of the dangerous, but legal product.

        But thats not the collective will of our Parliament, who seem to have sold out to the liquor industry.

        • framu 16.1.1.1
          9 October 2014 at 12:40 pm

          no –

          1) alcohol is vastly MORE dangerous
          2) making pot legal means we can get tax revenue to address the health issues and save money on the criminal issues

          for gods sake –

          pots here, everywhere.
          Were one of the biggest global consumers of it – even though its illegal.
          Kids already have access to it readily.
          Its illegal status doesnt make it hard to get hold of.
          Most of the issues are solely due to its illegal status
          We spend vast sums of money in the police, courts and prisons due to its illegal status
          Any $$ spent on it via the state comes from our taxes
          Normally law abiding people are instantly classed as criminals
          The whole synthetic cannabis debacle got so big because pot was illegal – that was the number one reason given by buyers of synth cannabis for using synth cannabis

          Making it legal gives it a taxable revenue stream to address health issues
          Making it legal means an instant saving on enforcement
          Making it legal reduces its appeal to gangs as a money scheme
          Making it legal creates a legit industry for all those places where they already grow illegally
          Making it legal means we can address the health issues
          Making it legal doesnt magically change its availability (its all ready available remember)
          Making it legal means people wont buy synthetic cannabis – which is now a black market drug

          theres more i could add

          which scenario do you think is better for society? The one where we spend vast sums of money and go backwards or the one where we make some attempts for the substance to pay for its own downside?

          • politikiwi 16.1.1.1.1
            9 October 2014 at 5:06 pm

            The fact that possession / use of cannabis is criminal offence creates more harm than cannabis itself. Think of the money wasted on enforcement costs and the associated enforcement costs (courts, drug raids). Think of the otherwise law-abiding citizens who have their lives destroyed by a criminal conviction.

            Given the current legal regime has done **nothing** to reduce the use of cannabis, and has arguably increased the harm, we should be thinking about how to actually address the very real harms of cannabis usage. Making criminals out of people who would otherwise not be, whilst spending millions of dollars enforcing laws which don’t solve the problem, is just lunacy. It’s time for that lunacy to end.

          • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 16.1.1.1.2
            9 October 2014 at 6:47 pm

            Studies and practising countries have shown that legalizing it actually reduces use and related problems. That might seem an oxymoron but it’s true. It also allows addicts to seek help without fear of prosecution.

            Not only pot should be legalized, everything should be decriminalized and a selection of safer products allowed to be sold,and it should be controlled.

            At present if you do use, you have to buy from the street, if you go to gang tinny houses who’s to say they are not spiking the tinnies with P to hook you.

          • Murray Rawshark 16.1.1.1.3
            10 October 2014 at 1:31 am

            +1 framu
            I’d add that the war on drugs in Aotearoa is a war on young Maori where marijuana is concerned.

    • wekarawshark 16.2
      9 October 2014 at 11:42 am

      The Daily Mail as scientific experts on cannabis use and effect, lolz.

      Here’s the article that the DM appears to be referring to. Note the review is of chronic cannabis use (daily or near daily), and it’s a review, not research.

      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1506/full

    • joe90 16.3
      9 October 2014 at 12:09 pm

      Too funny.

      All the review’s conclusions were based on the results of observational studies. So while it seems probable that cannabis use increases the risk of some adverse outcomes, it is also possible there are differences between cannabis smokers and non-smokers that explain some of the differences seen.

      http://www.nhs.uk/news/2014/10October/Pages/cannabis-labelled-harmful-and-as-addictive-as-heroin.aspx

    • bearded rawshark 16.4
      9 October 2014 at 12:24 pm

      the 0.46% mostly Lefties who voted for the legalise cannabis party should vote for the Left, can the LCP and lobby the mainstream parties instead.

      That would be another half seat for the Left.

      I notice phillip ure doesn’t mention this when he correctly slags off the greens and labour for not getting their act together in epsom and ohariau.

      • The Al1en 16.4.1
        9 October 2014 at 12:27 pm

        To be fair, he did write an open letter to the LCP and tell them to vote mip as they’d be wasting their votes otherwise.
        Guess they couldn’t read it, didn’t understand it or decided thanks but no thanks.

        • wekarawshark 16.4.1.1
          9 October 2014 at 12:30 pm

          ironical.

        • bearded rawshark 16.4.1.2
          9 October 2014 at 3:33 pm

          thanks Allen I didn’t know that. Still the way to go is to chuck the party thus chucking most of the votes to lab/gr.

          • phillip ure 16.4.1.2.1
            9 October 2014 at 3:51 pm

            i wrote the open letter..

            http://whoar.co.nz/2014/comment-whoar-an-open-letter-to-the-aotearoa-legalise-cannabis-party/

            ..but as the comment-thread shows cannabis-activist dakta green was the one who used it as a tool to persuade alcp-voters to vote imp..

            ..and it wd seem..on the surface..that he had some success..

            ..in 2011 alcp got 12,000+ votes..

            ..in 2014 it dropped to 8,000+ votes..

            • bearded rawshark 16.4.1.2.1.1
              9 October 2014 at 5:06 pm

              accepted phillip but 6000 votes to the left and 2000 to the right would be a much better outcome (or7000-1000 more likely). I am in no way attempting to belittle the cause they support, in fact these are people who, all praise to them, do actually get out and vote unlike many.

              Getting lab/gr into power may one day help loosen cannabis law. 8000 wasted votes will never do this.

              • phillip ure …
                9 October 2014 at 5:14 pm

                “..8000 wasted votes will never do this..”

                which was the point of my letter to them..

                ..that had things gone as planned..

                ..int/mana..with that clear promise/pledge from harre..

                ..was the best anti-prohibition choice for voters since forever..

                ..and i stand by that call..

                • Murray Rawshark …
                  10 October 2014 at 1:36 am

                  I agree that Mana is the best hope for legalisation. Hone doesn’t want to change the law so he can puff in peace, he wants to change it because the war on drugs has a direct and negative effect on the people he represents.

                  I think Labour are actually less likely than NAct to do anything positive in this area. Not unless they’re forced to, at least.

                  • ropata mako shark …
                    10 October 2014 at 1:41 am

                    ACT is supposedly the ‘liberal’ party that champions our freedom and that sort of thing. (Except when Banks or Brash is the leader.) Who knows, National have the political capital to legalise if it comes up on the ballot and their pollster/pimp has the numbers.

                    • phillip ure …
                      10 October 2014 at 6:15 am

                      @ ropata..

                      the only problem is that all of that ‘individual-freedom’ stuff preached by the right is utter horse-shit..

                      ..here they have a majority in parl..

                      ..and polling showing 84% supporting an end to prohibition..

                      ..the only argument is what form that ‘end’ should morph into..

                      ..but act/national..?..individual/personal freedoms..?

                      ..when push comes to shove..?

                      ..yeah..nah..eh..?

                  • phillip ure …
                    10 October 2014 at 6:11 am

                    @ murray..

                    “..I think Labour are actually less likely than NAct to do anything positive in this area…”

                    ..agreed..

    • framu 16.5
      9 October 2014 at 12:28 pm

      ‘If cannabis is not addictive then neither is heroin or alcohol,’ he said.
      ‘It is often harder to get people who are dependent on cannabis through withdrawal than for heroin – we just don’t know how to do it.’
      Professor Hall writes that it is impossible to take a fatal overdose of cannabis, making it less dangerous at first glance than heroin or cocaine.”

      i think professor hall has illustrated the problem here in his own words

      anti science you say? – or anti raving looney?

      and the big bit you fail to realise is that much of modern pro legalisation/decriminalisation policy is against young people having access – something which they have now due to its black market nature

      its all about approaching it from the fact that the vast bulk of the problems are due to its illegal status, which prevent society from addressing the negative health aspects

      prohibition doesnt work

      maybe go and educate yourself before making a fool of yourself

      i will forewarn you on this one – this argument has been done here before

      • phillip ure 16.5.1
        9 October 2014 at 3:54 pm

        @ framu..

        “..‘It is often harder to get people who are dependent on cannabis through withdrawal than for heroin – we just don’t know how to do it.’..”

        and just that statement/claim proves this professor hall is a delusional fucken fool..

    • minshark 16.6
      9 October 2014 at 1:23 pm

      Notably, the study didn’t find or identify many effects that were actually definitively caused by marijuana use if you read the entire study, and Street dealers don’t ask for ID, so how is prohibition really keeping cannabis away from young people anyway?

      I wonder who paid Prof. Wayne Hall to conduct this so-called ‘study’? Also, considering Mr. Hall is on the editorial board of ‘Addiction’ journal that this article was published in, how much peer-review scrutiny did this article get?

      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/journal/10.1111/%28ISSN%291360-0443

      He could have at least had the decency to list this clear conflict of interest in the Disclosure section, but he didn’t.

    • Draco T Bastard 16.7
      9 October 2014 at 6:02 pm

      One in six teenagers who regularly smoke the drug become dependent
      It doubles risk of developing psychotic disorders, including schizophrenia
      Heavy use in adolescence appears to impair intellectual development
      Driving after smoking cannabis doubles risk of having a car crash
      Study’s author said: ‘If cannabis is not addictive then neither is heroin’

      1. And how many teenagers who regularly drink alcohol become dependent?
      2. Doubling the risk is meaningless if the initial chance isn’t mentioned. I suspect that was left out on purpose as a doubling from 0.1% to 0.2% is probably within statistical error even over 20 years.
      3. I’m pretty sure that some people find it addictive and some don’t. The question, which isn’t answered and not apparently asked, is: What’s the proportion of people who use cannabis who do become addicted compared to other drugs?

      But his main finding is that regular use, especially among teenagers, leads to long-term mental health problems and addiction.

      The problem with that assertion would be that we wouldn’t be legalising it for teenagers. Same as we don’t legalise alcohol for teenagers (I get the feeling from the article that they use teenagers for people around 13 through 17 and over that become “young adults”).

      That entire article comes across as a scare article with absolutely no credibility.

  17. adam 17
    9 October 2014 at 12:06 pm

    Yes this is a link to @peace – no, not that song. But this hip-hop number sums up NZ and our current predicament, rather well.

    And then the truth

  18. minshark 18
    9 October 2014 at 1:19 pm

    New studies: ‘Conspiracy theorists’ sane; government dupes crazy, hostile

    Recent studies by psychologists and social scientists in the US and UK suggest that contrary to mainstream media stereotypes, those labeled “conspiracy theorists” appear to be saner than those who accept the official versions of contested events.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/07/12/313399/conspiracy-theorists-vs-govt-dupes/

    • McFlock 18.1
      9 October 2014 at 2:06 pm

      That’s an interesting interpretation of an interesting interpretation, in my view.

      E.g. the first study mentioned argued that the frequency of comments on news websites related to conventional vs unconventional views.

      It’s essentially like the climate change debate: as soon as the validity of the actual evidence is ignored, all viewpoints are regarded as equal.

      Personally, there are occasions when even having a so-called rational debate is in itself an irrational act. Sometimes it’s just plain appropriate to call a nutjob a nutjob.

    • Draco T Bastard 18.2
      9 October 2014 at 5:38 pm

      I linked to an audio of a NZ academic who covered the same topic a few weeks back.

  19. joe90 19
    9 October 2014 at 1:59 pm

    Oddly enough the quotations from that article don’t appear in the study. This bit’s my fav –

    Likewise, Clarke (2007) observed that conspiracy theories are often extremely vague, particularly in the Internet age.

    If this is the case, then for people who hold a conspiracist worldview, the specifics of a conspiracy theory are less important than its identity as a conspiracy and its opposition to the official explanation.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3703523/

  20. joe90 20
    9 October 2014 at 5:28 pm

    meh!

    Although there is no vaccine or established treatment for Ebola, its transmission can be stopped. In Liberia, the Firestone [4] rubber company used its money to open its own hospital and treat local residents in its company town. Patients were isolated and health workers were properly protected. This protocol is effective and results were predictable. Contagion was stopped and fatalities were minimal.

    In a just and equitable world, a corporation which didn’t want hampered operations or sick workers would not be the only example of an EVD success story. The rest of Liberia isn’t as lucky as Firestone’s employees. Before the outbreak there were only fifty physicians [5] in a nation of 4 million people. Such a paucity of resources makes any communicable disease a catastrophe.

    […]

    While the fear of illness and death is understandable it is not logical to turn what should be a reasoned analysis into foolish hysteria. Anyone who wants to look for Ebola conspiracies should spread this story instead. White health care workers who become infected are taken to Europe or the United States for treatment but black doctors are left to die [6]. That information is worth spreading to the whole world.

    http://www.blackagendareport.com/print/14450

    via – #ebolaethics.

  21. Morrissey 21
    9 October 2014 at 5:29 pm

    LIARS OF OUR TIME

    No. 43: Assistant Commissioner Alan Boreham

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    “Look, integrity is absolutely critical to the New Zealand Police. It’s a core value.”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    —Assistant Police Commissioner Alan Boreham, talking to Mary Wilson
    Radio NZ National Checkpoint, 5:10 p.m. Thursday 9 October 2014.
    At least four police officers are under investigation for giving false evidence after Tasering a man in front of his young daughter.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10597676/Taser-use-was-excessive-force

    More liars….
    No. 42 John Key: ““We’ve been given a tremendous gift tonight, the trust and goodwill of New Zealanders, and I do not take that trust for granted.”
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-30082014/#comment-876265
    No. 41 Richard Prebble: “What I do know is that John will consider everything. He’s an honorable man….”
    No. 40 Colin Craig: “I’m interested in raising the level of debate.”
    No. 39 George W. Bush: “We will be standing with the people of Afghanistan and Iraq until their hopes for freedom and liberty are fulfilled.”
    No. 38 Jeremy Hansen: “I read a great column by Paul Thomas in the Herald….”
    No. 37 Alan Seay: “You know, we respect the rights of people to protest….”
    No. 36 Paul Dykzeul: “No we won’t be changing the Listener; it’s got a terrific editor….”
    No. 35 Mark Jennings: “I think Paul’s a bright guy and he will be able to bring a discipline to his performance….”
    No. 34 Willie Jackson: “I thought we’d been sensitive with her yesterday….”
    No. 33 Supt. Bill Searle: “I think what’s happened here is the police officers have done their very best….”
    No. 32 Sonny-Bill Williams: “It’s good to get the win over Papua-New Guinea, a strong Papua-New Guinea side, aahhhh….”
    No. 31 John Palino: “Suggestions that I am somehow orchestrating some grand right-wing conspiracy to unseat Len after the election are so wrong…”
    No. 30 Alan Dershowitz: “I will give $10,000 to the PLO if you can find a historical fact in my book that you can prove to be false.”
    No. 29 John Banks: “I have nothing to hide and nothing to fear. And never, ever would I ever knowingly sign a false electoral return. Never ever would I ever.”

    No. 28 John Kerry: “…we are especially sensitive, Chuck and I, to never again asking any member of Congress to take a vote on faulty intelligence.”
    
No. 27 Lyse Doucet: “I am there for those without a voice.”
    
No. 26 Sam Wallace: “So here we are—Otahuhu. It’s just a great place to be, really.”


    No. 25 Margaret Thatcher: “…no British government involvement of any kind…with Khmer Rouge…”


    No. 24 John Key: “…at the end of the day I, like most New Zealanders, value the role of the fourth estate…”
    


No. 23 Jay Carney: “…expel Mr Snowden back to the U.S. to face justice…”
    


No. 22 Mike Bush: “Bruce Hutton had integrity beyond reproach.”
    


No. 21 Tim Groser: “I think the relationship is genuinely in outstanding form.”
    


No. 20 John Key: “But if the question is do we use the United States or one of our other partners to circumvent New Zealand law then the answer is categorically no.”
    


No. 19 Matthew Hooton: “It is ridiculous to say that unions deliver higher wages! They DON’T!”


    No. 18 Ant Strachan: “The All Blacks won the RWC 2011 because of outstanding defence!”



    No. 17 Stephen Franks: “Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands.”



    No. 16 Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months.”



    No. 15 Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”
    


No. 14 Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
    
No. 13 Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”
    




No. 12 U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”
    


No. 11 Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”



    No. 10 Boris Johnson: “Londoners have the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”
    


No. 9 NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”
    


No. 8 Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question….”



    No. 7 Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”




    No. 6 Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”




    No. 5 Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.”
    




No. 4 Willie Jackson: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”
    



No. 3 John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
    



No. 2 Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”




    No. 1 Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”

    • Clemgeopin 21.1
      9 October 2014 at 8:45 pm

      Enjoyed your compilation. Very revealing. Thanks.

      [I would add another one : ‘I did not have sex with that woman’—-Bill Clinton]

      • Murray Rawshark 21.1.1
        10 October 2014 at 1:44 am

        When Masters and Johnson did their famous study, they found that most men went to prostitutes to not have sex with them. They were willing to pay for this, because not having sex was not available from their wives.

  22. RedBaronCV 22
    9 October 2014 at 9:13 pm

    Sounds like the police might be feeling a little of the heat. Well they had better hurry up and search the filing cabinets for that core value.

    Probably stuffed at the back under all the ignored complaints, uncompleted reports and poorly filled out statistics. After all “crime is dropping” isn’t it so they can’t need more resources or be too busy now can they.

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