Open mike 17/11/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 17th, 2012 - 104 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

104 comments on “Open mike 17/11/2012 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    17 November 2012 at 6:23 am

    Neo liberals in ascension?

    Labour leaders meet business leaders in private and state housing activists nowhere.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7962380/Shearer-to-lead-Labour-into-election

    The party leadership today met more than 100 business representatives behind closed doors.

    Fairfax News

    Meanwhile in other news:

    Two flax roots Glen Innes housing activists organising against the National Government’s eviction of state tenants and the removal and demolition of state homes in Glen Innes. Have had the invitation extended to them to attend the Labour Party conference, crudely canceled at the last minute.

    Why?

    Are the neo liberals behind the withdrawal of the housing activist’s invitation to conference?

    Will David Shearer’s highly hyped Sunday speech on housing be advancing market solutions to homelessness?

    Will GI state tenant Evonne Sainty’s message of protecting state provision of secure long term government tenancies, which build secure communities,* conflict with David Shearer’s views on state provision of housing?

    *(Sainty’s vision is in direct conflict with National’s view of state housing as a short term band aid for for homelessness, extended only for a limited period before you are shifted out to find a home in the private sector.)

    • Rogue Trooper 1.1
      17 November 2012 at 9:28 am

      The Return to Egypt; the role of The Islamic Brotherhood for Hamas
      meanwhile, back in the Bat/ $hit cave, China have the Formula to rule the world.
      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10848015

      (Flash…ahhh ahhh, he’ll save every one of us…)

    • Dr Terry 1.2
      17 November 2012 at 9:51 am

      So almost first thing we see them disappearing behind closed doors with business leaders. What does that tell us? Can this action be”corrected” by a fancy speech tomorrow? Remember, Shearer has stated his intention to focus on the economy and not social issues (like poverty, I imagine).

      • Dr Terry 1.2.1
        17 November 2012 at 10:00 am

        I meant to return to dear old Shakespeare with regard to the coming SPEECH:

        And ’tis a kind of good deed to say well:
        And yet words are no deeds.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.3
      17 November 2012 at 11:38 am

      hah, this is perhaps more topical than I thought:

      According to Congressional hearings on illegal lobbying activities ’46 was the year that Milton Friedman and his U Chicago cohort George Stigler arranged an under-the-table deal with a Washington lobbying executive to pump out covert propaganda for the national real estate lobby in exchange for a hefty payout, the terms of which were never meant to be released to the public.

      Which goes along quite well with my idea that the free-market is just justification for capitalism rather than a viable economic theory.

  2. just saying 2
    17 November 2012 at 7:38 am

    That’s really depresssing Jenny, but thanks for the information.

    • Jenny 2.1
      18 November 2012 at 7:47 am

      Some questions need to be asked.

      Who were the attendees on the “Labour leadership” side?

      Were they fully representative of the Labour leadership, or just a section?\

      What did the “business representatives” want?

      And who were they?

      Where they fully representative of the business community, or just a section?

      What assurances, if any, were they given?

      Why was the meeting held behind closed doors?

      Why have all the identities of those involved not been revealed?

      Was monetary donations from business for Labour’s election campaign one of the things discussed?

      What else was discussed?

      Will any of the subjects discussed behind closed doors between anonymous Labour Party leaders and anonymous business leaders be revealed to the membership?

      Secret discussions being held prior to conference between unnamed senior Labour Party and Business leaders behind “closed doors” surely is not a good look, does this sort of behaviour by the Labour leadership risk undermining the public’s confidence that the Labour Party conference is the supreme democratic policy making body of the party?

      PS. Interesting how Rogue Trooper tried to divert the thread. Someone feeling a little bit sensitive about this issue being raised?

      • Jenny 2.1.1
        18 November 2012 at 10:06 am

        If this is what we can expect from Labour in opposition, what can we expect from them in government? More secret “closed door” meetings with business interests, while social activists are locked out and ignored?

        No wonder the non-vote is on its way to becoming the majority.

  3. Benghazi 3
    17 November 2012 at 7:44 am

    Today is the day for all members and delegates who want to change how the Labour Party selects its leader. The 40:40:20 remit looks likely to pass. But remember that’s not the critical vote. The trigger within the caucus to start the leadership selection process is your most important vote today. The current remits are focused on 2/3rds, 55%, 51%. You need to understand 51% is the status quo, the current caucus trigger. The trigger needs to be lower if members are going to have real involvement in selecting their leader. In the UK it’s 20%.

    If, for example, you want to have the opportunity to choose between Shearer and alternatives such as Cunliffe, that can only happen with a 40% caucus trigger.

    Mallard and King have a lock on too many MP’s and if the trigger remains at 51% (or is increased) only they will hold the power to begin a leadership selection process. They can stick with Shearer until they are ready to install Robertson (probably far too close to an election). And where’s the membership involvement there! If you think Cunliffe should just suck it up and wait, think again. If 40% fails today, it’s time for four years of white anting by Mallard and King to stop. Cunliffe’s talents should be used more productively outside the Labour Party. That’s what Mallard and King want. What do you members want today?!

    • ianmac 3.1
      17 November 2012 at 9:40 am

      “The 40:40:20 remit looks likely to pass. ”
      What does that mean Benghazi?

      • Benghazi 3.1.1
        17 November 2012 at 10:04 am

        Sorry Ianmac, it was shorthand for Remit 297(d). This is the remit that could finally give members some say on who our leader is. Presently only the caucus decides. The split most likely to be passed is that the vote for the leader will be weighted 40% for caucus, 40% for members, and 20% for affiliated unions.

    • Dr Terry 3.2
      17 November 2012 at 9:55 am

      Stick with Shearer just as they did Goff before him. Great! I almost wish Goff would return, nothing much worse could happen.

      • Lanthanide 3.2.1
        17 November 2012 at 11:47 am

        Goff got pretty good during the election campaign. The problem was the brain-dead policies they were running with – extending “working” for families to people that don’t work and borrowing money to invest in the superannuation fund. CGT was good but people didn’t seem to understand it and seemed to have a lot of exclusions.

        I ended up voting Labour, but was seriously tempted to just vote Green.

    • muzza 3.3
      17 November 2012 at 9:55 am

      Imagine the filth that King/Mallards controllers have on them to still be propping them up the way they are, Labour supporters need to have a good hard look in the mirror!

      To be honest Cunliffe has no chance of saving NZ unless be fancies a car accident, or getting “sick”, as he has been around long enough to understand the consequences of becoming a genuine “saviour” of NZ.

      So all you Cunliffe fans out there, time to get some reality in ya, and accept that he is just another part of the establishment, nothing more!

      Tactic: While moving the “left to the center”, all the while moving the center to the right, you in fact succeed in deleting even faded memories of what “left” ever looked or sounded like!

      Hence why those still supporting Labour have to be some of the most blinkered, read blindly ignorant people in the country, either that or they’re actually National voters in drag!

    • David H 3.4
      17 November 2012 at 7:44 pm

      Well when Labour go down in a screaming heap in 2014. Coming in 2 nd after the greens with Mallard and co given the well deserved boot. If they’re trying to get back in on the List, then I pity Labour, If dinosaurs like them get back in.

      • Te Reo Putake 3.4.1
        17 November 2012 at 7:52 pm

        And back on planet earth, one third of kiwi voters still prefer Labour. More after today, I imagine. And even more after the 13th of February.

        Still, I wouldn’t be overly concerned if Labour did come second to the Greens, as you suggest. In that fantasy scenario, I’d guess National come third. Fine by me!

  4. Rogue Trooper 4
    17 November 2012 at 8:57 am

    well, J T was carrying on like an abandoned ” little Boy” not allowed another piece of cake on the MSM last night; the character of the politically aspirant: I despair. J T and Maggie Barry would make a lovely photogenic couple.

  5. Rogue Trooper 5
    17 November 2012 at 9:55 am

    educated, articulate, compassionate school principal mentors charming young male teacher up North

    male teacher’s girlfriend advises principal teacher sleeping and showering with boy students

    principal notifies local “bobby”

    local “bobby” roughs up teacher and unsettles him

    teacher informs fellow staff, and parents, principal informed on him

    principal is ostracised and targeted

    teacher is transferred; parents take around 40 children out of current school to follow teacher to new position

    teacher is found some years later to have interferred sexually with over 40 children

    principal now teaches in Nigeria amidst civil conflict and other African realities

    Principal concludes; “Children are safer in Nigeria than they are in New Zealand”

    (these parents may be the “electorate” the “centrist”- appealing pollies are trying to appeal to)

    -the cynical prosecution rests it’s case.

  6. gobsmacked 6
    17 November 2012 at 10:07 am

    Key on the Nation (Tv3):

    First part – does OK, deals with Smalley (TV’s best interviewer?) well, not too defensive about the economy, he’s comfortable on that turf. Would eat Shearer alive.

    Second part – on education, has to defend Parata and Foss, which nobody could, so he struggles. Parata is “outstanding” … hmmm. Gets tetchy on Kim Dotcom. Smalley attacks.

    Overall, Key shows that he can still deflect easily with his prepared lines, but gets riled when he comes under sustained pressure.

    But let’s not kid ourselves. He’s streets ahead of Shearer as an interviewee.

    • Dv 6.1
      17 November 2012 at 10:26 am

      Re Paratas outstanding job.

      That is probably fair in terms of Keys standards.
      And Key probably can’t understand what she says anyway.

  7. muzza 7
    17 November 2012 at 10:08 am

    Fancy that, Comrade Helen talking about global government via the UN

    The United Nations needs to reform to resolve global problems such as conflict in Syria and climate change, former Prime Minister Helen Clark says

    “Around the world, people are exposed to media reporting of the human toll of the Syrian crisis, and are asking why the UN cannot act to protect innocent civilians,” Miss Clark said.

    She said it was a good time to consider reform of the council, in particular the veto power held by its five permanent members.

    Miss Clark also spoke about the risks in failing to co-ordinate a global response to climate change.

    “It would be a tragedy for future generations if today’s leaders and decision-makers prove incapable of taking the bold decisions which are necessary to stop catastrophic and irreversible change to the world’s climate (good to see helen has picked up the new buzzword catastrophic, and is repeating if for the start struck auther to quote on!)

    She said there was limited accountability for the agreements that had been reached on carbon emissions, and no meaningful consequences for failing to reach reduction targets.

    You would like meangingful consequences, and full accountability for those “agreements” though wouldn’t you Stalin, woops I mean Helen!

  8. Morrissey 8
    17 November 2012 at 10:20 am

    MOST SHAMELESS LIES OF THE WEEK
    Week ending Saturday 17/11/2012

    Lie No. 1….
    “Israel takes every measure to avoid civilian casualties.”
    Binyamin Netanyahu, Thursday, 15/11/2012

    Lie No. 2….
    Reporter: What mark out of ten would you give David Shearer for his performance so far?
    David Parker: Ahhhhhhhmmmm… ten.
    Radio New Zealand National, Focus on Politics, 16/11/2012

    Lie No. 3….
    “Hekia Parata has done an OUTSTANDING job as minister.”
    John Key, on The Nation, TV3, 17/11/2012

    Lie No. 4….
    “Nick Smith has an enormous brain. Sure, he made a few mistakes on the margin…”
    John Key, on The Nation, TV3, 17/11/2012

    • Lanthanide 8.1
      17 November 2012 at 11:52 am

      “enormous brain”? Key really is an ignoramus.

      • PlanetOrphan 8.1.1
        17 November 2012 at 12:12 pm

        Yup,

        Back in the old days when I used to talk to “Directors”, the one thing they all said was they couldn’t delegate, always have too oversee people.

        John Keys rhetoric is identical to all those directors’ responses to systemic failure.

        The one difference obviously being that the Gnats’ are running our country not a business whos “reputation” may be damged by calling the person responsible an ignoramus.

        Well said Lanthanide (-:

        • Morrissey 8.1.1.1
          17 November 2012 at 1:05 pm

          What business would tolerate someone as substandard as John Banks? Or Hekia Parata?

          All right, all right, all right, I know what you’re going to say: there’s the Herald, NewstalkZB, Television New Zealand, the New Zealand Rugby Union, Radio Live….

  9. muzza 9
    17 November 2012 at 10:23 am

    Temporary employment entry for skilled workers under the New Zealand – China Free Trade Agreement (FTA)
    The FTA includes commitments for skilled workers from China to enter New Zealand for temporary employment, without labour market testing (but subject to specified qualifications and work experience requirements, registration if required, and the requirement for a bona fide job offer), if they work in one of the following occupations:

    Traditional Chinese medicine practitioners
    Chinese chefs
    Mandarin teachers’ aides
    Wushu martial arts (including tai chi) coaches
    Chinese tour guides.
    For more information, see China Special Work Category.

    In addition, a maximum of 1000 skilled Chinese workers at any one time may be granted temporary employment for up to three years, in specified occupations where New Zealand has a skills shortage. Entry is limited to no more than 100 workers in each occupation at any one time.

    The list of occupations (which all have specific qualification and experience requirements) is as follows:

    Auditor
    Automotive Electrician
    Boatbuilder
    Computer Application Engineer
    Design Engineer – Electronics / Product Engineer
    Diesel Mechanic
    Early Childhood Teacher
    Electrician
    Electronics Technician
    Film Animator
    Fitter and Turner
    Fitter / Welder
    Medical Diagnostic Radiographer / Medical Radiation Therapist
    Motor Mechanic
    Plumber
    Registered Nurse
    Senior Test Analyst
    Structural Engineer
    University or Higher Education Lecturer/Tutor
    Veterinarian.
    For more information, see China Skilled Workers Category.

    For more information about the FTA, visit http://www.ChinaFTA.govt.nz.

    • Rogue Trooper 9.1
      17 November 2012 at 1:15 pm

      been saying Welcome The Chinese all year; they are coming and politicians will be handing over the keys.

    • Foreign Waka 9.2
      17 November 2012 at 1:18 pm

      This is the solution offered to appease the Chinese and plug the hole that the abysmal education has left over the last 15 years. I suppose that this ought to help getting NZ on a similar productive level as its pacific rim neighbors. Problem is the cultural divide in terms of employment conditions. NZ had enjoyed a rather civilized arrangement with the British influence but this is going to slowly lean towards modern slavery under the new dogma. The ones that will leave and can do so will and others will just have to endure.
      Of cause there are alternative solutions which fit with the current economic and social make up of NZ (as it still is) that makes far more sense and has the same outcome with none of the social reconstruction. But maybe this is not what is wanted.

  10. Rodel 10
    17 November 2012 at 10:28 am

    Heard some excerpts of the PM debating the other day on radio.Thought, ‘who does he sound like?’
    Then it hit me.He sounds remarkably like Paul Henry when excited. Listen next time.

  11. burt 11
    17 November 2012 at 10:28 am

    Remit #121: End the process of union affiliation and return control of the party to the party members and return transparency of the party direction to the voters.

    • gobsmacked 11.1
      17 November 2012 at 10:48 am

      Amendment to Remit #121

      Agree to do the above, as soon as National and their proxies embrace complete “transparency” in their funding.

  12. ak 12
    17 November 2012 at 10:45 am

    Never ever envisaged saying it, but reckon John Armstrong pretty well nails it this morning…..

  13. Uturn 13
    17 November 2012 at 11:43 am

    If women didn’t get so drunk, police would be able to catch the people who attack them.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/james-ihaka/news/article.cfm?a_id=315&objectid=10848010

    While thinking about how many ways this story could have “innocently” gone wrong, and consdiering the many ideological laws it broke, the deciding vote – for me – went in favour of writing errors.

    James/Jamie, listen, there are more perspectives than just your own in this world, you know that. You hold a priviledged place in our society, yet you’re ignoring the impact a singular perspective can do to groups within that society when the overall message of your words – the theme – is ignored, by you, the writer. Let’s skip past the ins and outs of readily available protection myths that you obviously don’t or can’t know about and concentrate on sources. No one’s asking you to become a feminist ideologue, just approach it from a perspective of good writing.

    When this story was formed, did you consider the environment and attitude of the people offering the information and how, if it remained unchecked, it would alter the central message? Did you agree with the basic ideas of the people you met? Do you admire and defer to authority? Do you know your place? Do you believe you are essentially a good person, a team player? Do you believe you can write well without examining these influences? Did you have no choice but to generalise, because the raw information covered such a large group of individuals? Did it not matter, because you wanted to do good? Did you sincerely try for balance by talking to representatives of an alternate viewpoint?

    Imagine how the story would have read if it was just about one person – what questions would you have asked in order to explain the whole picture? How far back would you have gone, how far below the surface would you have scratched, which side-tracks would you have trimmed out? Would you investigate the influence of intoxication separately or in parallel? How would that make a difference to the overall message? How many issues are contained in this story, James/Jamie? Would you be able to see everything and not have an opinion about what you saw? Where would you choose to cast the final vote – on the side of the victim, the aggressor, to uphold societal beliefs or attempt a reflection?

    Best of luck to you Jamie/James. Take care with the power you have been awarded.

    • BM 13.1
      17 November 2012 at 12:02 pm

      The crux of the story is,
      If your going to get so pissed that you have no idea what’s going on around you, the police can’t help you.

      • weka 13.1.1
        17 November 2012 at 12:29 pm

        I thought the crux of the story was that if you get so pissed you don’t know what’s going on around you and you then get raped, society will say it’s your own fault (even if they try and say it more neutrally than they used to).
         
        What the article should have done is introduce the policing issue and then focus on Kim McGregor’s statement about the need to look at the behaviour of rapists/offenders (see the pathetic amount of space given to her statement at the end vs the rest of the article). I’m sure she had lots more to say.
         
        They could also have done a completely separate article on the Massey research, looking at all the issues around young women binge drinking, and when they got to the bit bit about rape, again focus on the behaviour of rapists towards drunk women and link to the other article.
         
         

        In Auckland, Hamilton and other centres, police and other agencies are out in the streets at night, pushing campaigns designed to prevent sexual assault.
        Hamilton police are giving the message, among others, that intoxicated or inebriated people who are slurring their words or stumbling around can’t properly consent to having sex.
         

        Great, but who is the message being given to and how? Jamie and James, instead of telling us more about what that actually means, your whole article has just informed rapists and potential rapists that if they rape really drunk women they’re likely to get away with it.

        • weka 13.1.1.1
          17 November 2012 at 12:33 pm

          Oh, and Jamie and James and editors of the Herald, rape is not sex, so don’t call it that. Wish I had time to redo the whole article, but here’s a rewrite of the headline
           
          Out-of-it victims stymie sex cases
           
          should be
           
          Men raping women who are unable to give consent

          • BM 13.1.1.1.1
            17 November 2012 at 1:05 pm

            Facts are, rape has been around since human beings got up and walked, It’s not going away.

            The smarter woman takes steps to reduce the chances of rape happening, getting so trolleyed you have no idea of what’s going on is not one of them.

            • weka 13.1.1.1.1.1
              17 November 2012 at 4:05 pm

              Please produce some evidence that the high levels of rape we have now have always been.
               
              And if you think that the responsibility is on women to avoid rape, please tell me what undrunk women who are unable to give consent or protect themselves should do. 
               
              Then tell me what responsibility you think men have in this.

              • BM …
                17 November 2012 at 5:06 pm

                Rape and pillage
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_rape#Antiquity

                Yes, we all know rape is bad and it’s not the fault of the man/woman/child who gets raped and in a perfect society any one could walk the streets at any time of the day and night, in any state and not get raped or beaten up.

                Unfortunately we don’t live in this perfect world and I doubt we ever will,so a bit of personal responsibility needs to happen if you want to stay safe and out of harms way.

                • QoT …
                  17 November 2012 at 5:10 pm

                  BM, you were asked Please produce some evidence that the high levels of rape we have now have always been.

                  You responded with a Wiki article on rape during war.

                  Either you’re a disingenuous fuckhead with a vested interest in not confronting societal attitudes which allow rapists to go unpunished, or you’re just a kindly-hearted confused little dweeb who doesn’t understand the circumstances in which the majority of rapes occur.

                  Sadly for you, I am all out of Benefit Of The Doubt.

                  • BM …
                    17 November 2012 at 5:14 pm

                    I’m just a realist, unlike yourself.

                    • QoT …
                      17 November 2012 at 5:18 pm

                      Oh, BM. So sad how you can’t even back up your assertions. First you try re-defining things (rape vs. rape during war) and then you claim to be a realist when I’m the one arguing from actual statistics! It’s fucking adorable, to be honest.

                    • weka …
                      17 November 2012 at 6:07 pm

                      You might want to consider why you believe that high levels of rape in society is the norm (despite there being no evidence), and how that relates to what you think can be done about it.
                       
                      You haven’t answered my other questions.

                • BM …
                  17 November 2012 at 6:14 pm

                  How about you tell me how we could achieve this totally safe society where any woman could walk around at any time of the night without fear of being attacked and raped.

                  What steps should be taken, what’s your ideas?

            • QoT 13.1.1.1.1.2
              17 November 2012 at 4:21 pm

              The smarter woman takes steps to reduce the chances of rape happening

              I agree, BM. That’s why I live in an underground bunker and refuse to have contact with all men.

              After all, the statistics tell us I’m most likely to be attacked by someone I know in my own home, so being a “smarter woman”, I’ve taken the necessary steps to reduce that risk.

            • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1.1.3
              17 November 2012 at 4:40 pm

              The smarter society realises and supports the idea that people should be able to walk around anywhere and not be attacked rather defending the attackers and blaming the victims as you’re doing.

    • Rogue Trooper 13.2
      17 November 2012 at 1:20 pm

      what I often ponder, considering my experiential knowledge of the field, is the neurological damage that this culture of binge-drinking among young people will have, which takes time to heal, and the proportion of these young people who, statistically speaking, will develop “alcohol abuse” and “alcohol dependence” health histories; the DSM IV covers these matters at length, along with narcissism.

      • aerobubble 13.2.1
        17 November 2012 at 2:11 pm

        People drink to fit in. People fear difference. Intelligent people are different, and can cause huge social angst when they put average citizens down (loss of status). So why is it hard to fathom, that young people fear coming off as intelligent, want to fit in, and so abuse their brains.
        Fearful people join groups in order to maintain security.

        so the question is why is there so much wealth created by fear mongering? Well simple,
        greedy crony capitalism distorts to make money, and creating a society of inequity,
        fear of inequity, fear of being isolated, fear of being thrown out of society, being
        made a non-citizen, will inevitable lead to gangs, to drinking to fit in, to…

        There’s an old saying, what comes around goes around, and I think it means, that if you push values of supremacy then inevitably you are enslaved by your own dealings. Take the recent ponsi collapse, the trusting investors did not appreciate the GFC, National were not explaining the GFC, saying growth is just around the corner, so of course it was easier for investors to think the above market returns were realistic. You see it, National spin turns into shit hitting the fan for National, as Key promised to clear up the investment industry!

        As a nation we are peddling lies about the weak taking over, destroying the economy, but in fact the weak are the National party and all hangers on who cannot stand on their own feet but neew no tax on CGT, need the socialism for the wealthy to be successful, be economically drunk and in need of a bonus on the board of a company, because they joined a group out of fear, not for positive reasons.
        The need for alcohol or for profit, its all the same, security. Whethe r it be drinking to fit in, or joining a gang, or even supporting the current clueless National fear mongers in the Beehive.

        I mean seriously, the rich made vast amounts gaming the system to produce huge indebtedness, and people really think they deserve to avoid tax increases, but this meme is a regular appearance on the news. It was tax decreases that got us into this mess!!!

        • Rogue Trooper 13.2.1.1
          17 November 2012 at 3:18 pm

          you often, coherently, make reasonable points, now.
          somebody , Tane, from memory, the other day referred to post-structuralist deconstruction as the necessary tools. They are certainly useful tools; what social policy advice influences policy is political, it appears, however, this deconstructive stuff is being written and published everyday; we can but spread the Word.

          It is encouraging that young-ish people are likely to read and / or comment here as that is who we who are older are here for, aren’t we?

          Now, I been following Chinese politics lightly, (too much audio-visual may be desensitizing, it certainly blows me away when I haven’t seen the bleeding and limp-dead children for a couple of days)
          anyway, one quote from a citizen, maybe from the village where the new Leader spent Seven years of his youth living in a cave, said the Party aim is to make every Chinese person wealthy; well I can see they have certainly made some progress towards that aim since The Cultural Revolution. Thing is, where is all that wealth / resource gonna come from in a “finite” system? Maybe from the West, I’m thinking.

          And, the new Central Committee members are all very good at One thing; being in a Committee.
          very helpful

      • Field Marshall 13.2.2
        17 November 2012 at 3:07 pm

        People who drink first have to acknowledge that it is THEM who has the problem – not the rest of society.

        AA has personal acknowledgement as part of their Oath.

        Addicts don’t abide by laws and regulations so it is then rather pointless to increase ‘barriers’ to alcohol.

  14. Jackal 14
    17 November 2012 at 12:01 pm

    Thou shalt not kill

    The potential for this conflict to escalate even further is there, with the Israelis calling up 30,000 reservists and amassing troops and tanks near the Gaza border. Despite a warning from Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi, Israeli rocket and airstrikes have continued unabated, entirely dwarfing the retaliatory strikes coming from Palestine for the assassination of Hamas military leader Ahmed al-Jabari…

    • PlanetOrphan 14.1
      17 November 2012 at 12:19 pm

      And Israel sits in morbid fear of Iran because of it as well.

      They really need to open their eyes to one simple fact “Torture results in Torture”.

      If they keep the element white hot simply to justify the “Self Defence” stance then it’s simply an engineered excuse for a fear perspectived suppression.
      (i.e Israel starts talking “Terrorists” again )

    • Rogue Trooper 14.2
      17 November 2012 at 1:23 pm

      many of your writings are very succinct and timely and timely Jackal

      • Jackal 14.2.1
        17 November 2012 at 1:34 pm

        Thanks Rogue Trooper. It’s good to have some agreement and I think Israel and the United States need to know that not everybody in the west supports such an unjust war on the Palestinians. I think very few people would if they were made aware of the facts of the matter.

    • Foreign Waka 14.3
      17 November 2012 at 1:26 pm

      It will escalate as there is no solution to the fact that out of 70 odd water wells in Palestinian country more than 50% have been taped from the Israelis leaving the Palestinians – without water. Now you tell me, what solution is there? You can actually say that the Israelis deliberately undermine the survival of the Palestinians with these actions. So what solution would you offer? Albeit the information is accessible, not many report on it. Why?
      http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/water.html

      • PlanetOrphan 14.3.1
        17 November 2012 at 1:49 pm

        Pure freakin evil, probably defines the entire problem from Day 1 of the Zionists.

      • Morrissey 14.3.2
        17 November 2012 at 2:01 pm

        Now you tell me, what solution is there?

        The solution is simple and easily achieved: the United States must cease funding and supporting Israel’s illegal aggression and settlement programs, just as it was eventually persuaded to cease funding and supporting Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, apartheid South Africa, and the Suharto dictatorship in Indonesia.

        • KJT 14.3.2.1
          17 November 2012 at 3:05 pm

          Stopped supporting the dictatorship in Indonesia. When?

          They are still selling them arms. training their military and helping with repressive police tactics.

          In fact, so is New Zealand.

          http://kjt-kt.blogspot.co.nz/2011/10/kia-ora-this-dictator-of-oil-rich.html

          “This Dictator of an oil rich country.

          Overthrew a democratically elected Government.
          Murdered between 700 thousand and a million of his own citizens to get into power.
          Brutally squashed two independence movements. Now engaged in squashing a third.
          Keeps about 2/3 of his country in poverty.
          Allows foreign companies to repatriate almost 100% of their profits. Especially Western oil companies.
          Has the worst environmental record in the Pacific..
          Allows abuse of workers in virtual slave labour.
          Sends troops in to kill unionists.
          Country has unsustainable debt.
          Streets of beggars and homeless.

          This Dictator of an oil rich country.

          Left his country with no external debt.
          Gave interest free loans to citizens.
          Had Western standards of living.
          Increased literacy from 25% to 83%.
          Had the Highest Standard of living in Africa.
          A proportion of all oil sales was credited to every citizens bank account.
          No beggars in the streets and no homeless.

          Guess which one was helped into place by the US Government and is supported by other Western Governments, including ours”.

        • Dr Terry 14.3.2.2
          17 November 2012 at 5:14 pm

          The United States exists in mortal fear of the large number of its rich and powerful Israeli-born citizens. No President will dare to defy Israel, being so beholden to the vicious politicians in that country.

  15. Penny Bright 15
    17 November 2012 at 12:25 pm

    DODGY JOHN BANKS ….GOING……….GOING………….???
    What happens if Graham McCready is successful in his private prosecution of John Banks under s.134(1) of the Local Electoral Act?  
    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2001/0035/latest/DLM94799.html
    134 False return
    (1) Every candidate commits an offence who transmits a return of electoral expenses knowing that it is false in any material particular, and is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to a fine not exceeding $10,000.
    _________________________________________________
     
    If you want to read Judge  Mill’s decision on the granting of a witness summons for John Banks – and not rumour and heresay – a full copy of her decision is available on http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’.

  16. Penny Bright 16
    17 November 2012 at 12:35 pm

    Seen this folks?
    17 November 2012
    Media Release:
    Protest against Israeli attacks on Gaza – today 2pm, Aotea Square. 
    As Israeli troops mass at the Gaza border Global Peace and Justice Auckland is organising a march this Saturday to protest Israel’s assassination of a Palestinian leader in the Gaza strip and the deadly rocket attacks in which many Palestinians have lost their lives.
    We will be calling on Minister of Foreign Affairs Murray McCully to speak out for New Zealand and urge Israel to stop the carnage it started.
    With our silence New Zealand is part of the Israeli killing machine.
    Around the world the mainstream media has given an appalling pro-Israeli version of how and why the latest violence started. (See postscript to this release)
    We hope to begin to redress the misinformation with a live link to kiwi activist Roger Fowler who is in Gaza on a solidarity mission for the New Zealand group Kia Ora Gaza. Call me for Roger’s international phone if you want to talk to him – and we hope you do.
     
    Todays’ protest will include a mass throwing of old shoes at the US consulate. Throwing shoes is a traditional way of showing disgust at US/Israeli policies in the Middle East following the Iraqi journalist who threw his shoes at the then US President George Bush in a 2008 media conference.
     
    These latest Israeli attacks continue the brutal victimisation of the Palestinian people of Gaza who are effectively locked in the largest open air prison in the world and treated like animals through an inhuman Israeli blockade.
     
    Israeli justifications for the attacks are hollow. It is Israel’s racist policies and vicious mistreatment of Palestinians which are at the heart of this conflict. Israel policies alone pose the greatest threat to peace in the Middle East and in the world.
     
    As well and blockading Palestinians in Gaza Israel maintain a military occupation of the West Bank while destroying Palestinian homes and farms to make way for Jewish-only settlements. These vicious de-humanising apartheid policies against Palestinians are in defiance of international law and numerous UN resolutions.
     
    John Minto 
    Mike Treen 
     

  17. Morrissey 17
    17 November 2012 at 1:01 pm

    So you think nothing and nobody can revolt you?
    You haven’t seen ALEX SELSKY in action….

    Go to YouTube and type in the following:

    “Gaza War Spiral: RT talks to Israeli PM spokesman”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8VbtRk5ufo&feature=player_embedded

    If you are not disgusted by Mr Alex Selsky, there is something wrong with you.

    • Rogue Trooper 17.1
      17 November 2012 at 1:34 pm

      yes. the war for the leadeship of the NZ Labour party may in Remembrance of Things Past, be overshadowed by the initiation of a much more significant War…
      (go on “ask me ask me ask me..”)

      • Morrissey 17.1.1
        17 November 2012 at 1:38 pm

        The daily bombardment of Gaza is a “war”? Be careful of your terminology. This is a “war” in the sense the blockading of the Warsaw Ghetto was a war. One side has a massive and overwhelming advantage, the other side is almost entirely unarmed, penned in, and at the mercy of its tormentor.

  18. Jackal 18
    17 November 2012 at 1:30 pm

    National fails the environmental test

    Clearly the media statements National made following the release of the Pure Advantage Green growth: opportunities for New Zealand report (PDF) were entirely false. The contradictions between them and what Bill English said in parliament on Thursday couldn’t be more apparent…

  19. Rogue Trooper 19
    17 November 2012 at 1:55 pm

    well, while the “gangs” all here (speaking of scouts, and other conservative establishments, how much more of this sexual manipulation of children by “respectable” persons is gonna be revealed)
    I have seen and experienced a lot in my life, and when I was younger and establishing relationships with the opposite gender, I was continuously disturbed by the revelations of “partners” of the sexual abuse that had been visited upon them; now, regretably, in some ways, I had a disproportionate amount of partners for the time, yet, I would estimate at least half had been taken advantage of for the sexual gratification of an older male.

    The most disturbing example was a young women, who had become quite “experimental” for the time, sharing with me how her Father, a former school teacher and MoE School Inspector, before he became self-employed, had systematically formed and developed sexual relationships with all Four of his daughters from primary school through to their teens (he is dead now);consequently, they all had deep psycho-social “issues”
    anyway

    Big Fat Lies
    http://sweetpoison.com.au/?page_id=458

    Fetish
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_Fetish

    now, I better do the garden to reimburse for my time wasted, on the internet that is
    🙂

  20. Morrissey 20
    17 November 2012 at 1:56 pm

    November 16, 2012
    Gaza Blitz – Turmoil And Tragicomedy At The BBC
    by David Cromwell and David Edwards
    http://www.medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=706:gaza-blitz-turmoil-and-tragicomedy-at-the-bbc&catid=25:alerts-2012&Itemid=69

    BBC News is in turmoil. Having last year dropped a report on claims of sexual abuse against the late DJ and television presenter Jimmy Savile, the flagship Newsnight programme this month wrongly implicated Tory peer Lord McAlpine in child abuse. As a result, after just 54 days in his job, the BBC director-general, George Entwistle, ‘stepped down’ on November 10. The BBC’s head of news, Helen Boaden, and her deputy, Stephen Mitchell, were then also ‘asked’ to ‘step aside’. Peter Rippon, the Newsnight editor responsible for the Savile decision, had already ‘stepped aside’.

    The Lord Patten-led BBC Trust, which is supposed to ensure that the BBC is run in the public interest, has once again been revealed as a useless, dangling appendage.

    Newsnight’s journalistic failures on child abuse are bad enough, rightly heaping pressure on the broadcaster. But there was no comparable pressure for senior staff to ‘step aside’ over the BBC’s truly catastrophic failure to challenge US-UK propaganda on Iraq’s non-existent weapons of mass destruction and the country’s supposed ‘threat’ to the West. This failure paved the way to war in Iraq and the subsequent brutal and bloody occupation at a cost of hundreds of thousands of lives. As Media Lens noted recently on Twitter: ‘If you think Newsnight failed badly now, compare with anchor Jeremy Paxman’s 2009 confession on Iraq’: namely, that he and his media colleagues were ‘hoodwinked’ by propaganda about Iraq. Paxman made these extraordinary comments….

    Read more….
    http://www.medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=706:gaza-blitz-turmoil-and-tragicomedy-at-the-bbc&catid=25:alerts-2012&Itemid=69

  21. Monique Watson 21
    17 November 2012 at 2:56 pm

    Sounds like a lot of antisemitism rubbish to me. Not surprised though. Socialists hate success. The State of Israel is very successful in both defending itself and in making money. Therefore the nasty State of Israel should be kinder to the poor wee Palestinians.

    • joe90 21.1
      17 November 2012 at 3:06 pm

      Yeah, Syrkin, Ben-Gurion, Katznelson, and Meir, all success hating socialists.

    • Te Reo Putake 21.2
      17 November 2012 at 3:06 pm

      Oh, do grow up, Monique. It’s not anti-semitic to oppose the bullying of the powerless by the powerful. It’s a sign of character. And us socialists love success, we just define it differently from righties. Socialists want success for the majority, your lot see success as entirely personal and something only the minority should enjoy.

      • KJT 21.2.1
        17 November 2012 at 3:14 pm

        Shooting 30 or more non-involved Palestinians for every Israeli killed seems to me to be too reminiscent of certain German methods in the 40’s.

        Far from being anti Semitic, I know there is a large number of Jewish people who think that Israel should be better than that.

    • Morrissey 21.3
      17 November 2012 at 4:24 pm

      You’re utterly ignorant. You need to read the piece and then think. So far you’ve done neither.

    • Draco T Bastard 21.4
      17 November 2012 at 4:52 pm

      The State of Israel shouldn’t exist as people, specifically the Palestinians, already occupied the territory that the Zionists wanted. It came into being as a declaration from the UN and terrorism by the Zionists.

      BTW, Palestinians are Semitic as well so where’s the anti-Semitism?

    • freedom 21.5
      17 November 2012 at 8:41 pm

      Monique, I will not write what I am sorely tempted to, instead I will let this image illuminate your hate. Your vile sanctimonious wastrel of a comment shows that you seem oblivious to or proud of how ignorant you are, and I cannot decide which is the more pitiful.
      http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/converted_islam/35446474/13326/13326_original.jpg

      • Jackal 21.5.1
        17 November 2012 at 9:34 pm

        I pity her ignorance the most, mainly because if Monique Yea or Nay [sic] Watson actually bothered to learn the truth about the Israeli Palestinian conflict, she wouldn’t have displayed such sanctimonious drivel.

  22. RedBaron 22
    17 November 2012 at 3:00 pm

    I know nothing about political conferences and this post is probably loaded with naivety but here goes.

    Somehow a lot of the remits seemed so last century – where is there anything about taking the fight to the opposition, using some of their tactics against them. It takes time to build up what the last labour government did, but no time to wreck it. Destroying it needs to be made a lot harder.

    Take PPP, a left government could sign a contract with the teacher’s unions to provide services to state schools with the appropriate standards and some large break clauses, sort of Serco in reverse,
    which would make it more difficult to divert funds to the private sector.

    Asset sales. At the moment all the shares in the companies are held by the Minister of finance. Put a block of these shares into a trust for the employees and customers of the company. Most of the time it won’t matter but if something large comes up then the minority provisions of the Companies Act click in and the trustees are bound by their duties which should slow things down considerably.

    Groups excluded by National. (Everybody but rich white males) Don’t let the framing be around a “more Interventionist” left but one of leveling a tilted playing field so that all citizens are able to contribute. Look at the benefits we will all gain from Maori stance on water , thanks from us all.

    Lastly, I didn’t think David Shearer’s comments about bloggers were smart. If words didn’t matter then why the drive to control MSM by the right. Social media is a way for those not involved or incensed by the MSM to bring otherwise hidden opinions and actions to light. Of course the MSM hate and belittle this, because of the loss of control by them over the discourse but a wise political party should see the benefits.

    People who take the time to blog are I suspect likely to be influencers and opinion formers out there in the real world. Just because I blog here doesn’t mean that I don’t try to influence opinions out there in real life on a case by case basis and sometimes I believe I suceed.

    I personally, have no idea who the other bloggers on here are apart from some mental pictures and I never will unless Lprent throws a party…..

    I can tolerate Shearer but I think he needs to use everything and everybody he has to the maximum capacity not sledge likely supporters.

    Here ends today’s rant.

    • KJT 22.1
      17 November 2012 at 3:09 pm

      +1

      I don’t think Shearer has “the fire in the belly” (I was going to say, balls, but QOT would then have mine) or the inclination, to lead Labour both into reversing the neo-liberal crap which has failed us to date, and deal with the third way advocates in Labour.

    • Rogue Trooper 22.2
      17 November 2012 at 3:31 pm

      I agree to you both; When Shearer said on tele, a little red-faced, that he will be leader, and lead the party to win in 2014, I thought, hmmm, a little presumptious, but maybe he is a committee man 🙂

      in person
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personalist

      • RedBaron 22.2.1
        17 November 2012 at 3:48 pm

        Should have expanded. What would it have cost Shearer to

        1. Have a punt at the MSM ” Labour values all forms of discourse and social media has a big place in forming and voicing emerging opinion and preventing complacency and the status quo from ruling as the Nacts would like”
        2. and keeping the heat off himself ” this may not mean that we agree with everything said but respect right to say it , and of course I’ve been voted in as the man for the job by the party” [small smile on face]

        • gobsmacked 22.2.1.1
          17 November 2012 at 3:57 pm

          Yes, he could have shown good political judgement. Except – he hasn’t got any.

          He is only listening to those he wants to hear, which is usually the kind of thing that happens when politicians have been in power for ages and have lost touch. But – incredibly – Shearer is showing the same disconnect from reality at the start of his leadership. And that’s why he’s doomed.

          • Rhinocrates 22.2.1.1.1
            17 November 2012 at 9:35 pm

            You know, from a purely tactical point of view, I would say of everything Shearer has been saying lately about his position, something like this:

            Of course that’s what he has to say – to say otherwise would be to admit an error or to play into his opponents’ hands.

            Really, he can’t say something like this:

            Yes indeed, there is a serious threat to my so-called leadership.

            Or:

            All those bloggers and columnists are longtime Labour supporters and they have legitimate concerns that I really must address.

            Let alone:

            Yep, when Fran O’Sullivan with the piss-tinted spectacles, Matthew Hooton, Richard Long, David Farrar – AKA The Penguin – and all those other goons are supporting me and respected left-of-centre writers think I’m a pile of dingoes kidneys, I’ve got to admit that I’m probably not the man for the job after all.

            He can’t say anything other than what he’s saying because he’s painted himself into a corner and it’s too late.

            When the time comes, what he will not say is “Et tu, Brute,” because it will be a surprise to no-one – not even himself. You see, despite the strong resemblance, he’s just a wee, tiny, little bit (but not much) smarter than Dilbert’s pointy-haired boss.

            Bye bye Dave. Maybe you should swap that guitar for a violin or maybe in your spare time you could paint your roof.

    • Jim Nald - Once Was National 22.3
      17 November 2012 at 4:19 pm

      “but one of leveling a tilted playing field”

      – spot on.

      The present National Party that has been hijacked by banksters, money launderers, gamblers, Big Corporates, and the 1%, extract unfair advantage from the tilted playing field, and they continue to tilt the playing field even more in their own favour and interest.

  23. Karen 23
    17 November 2012 at 4:05 pm

    I saw David Shearer on TV this morning and I while I’m sure he’s a very nice chap, I just wish he’d do the following:

    A. Keep his mouth closed at all times except when speaking; and

    B. Stop licking his lips all the time. The lizard-like tongue constantly darting out makes him look very nervous and besides that just looks a bit icky.

    Can’t someone just tell him?

    • Morrissey 23.1
      17 November 2012 at 4:25 pm

      The nervous fixed grin doesn’t help other.

    • Dr Terry 23.2
      17 November 2012 at 5:29 pm

      You cannot tell him because it is highly questionable that he is in fact “a very nice chap” (look how he regards critics from his own party; consider his openly expressed egotism). Regardless, I am rather suspicious of these “very nice chaps” (particularly of the Key variety!) This “very nice chap” phrase has by now become a well worn-out and meaningless cliche.

      • Rhinocrates 23.2.1
        17 November 2012 at 9:56 pm

        Yeah, I never got that “Key is a nice guy” thing at all. He always seemed revoltingly smarmy – and likewise, I don’t get the “Shearer is a nice guy” thing either. Sure, you can be a bumbling, incompetent nice guy who ultimately wins through in an Adam Sandler film, but in real life you can be a bumbling incompetent, vain, tin-eared, inarticulate, unsuitable, ignorant, cynical, spineless, focus group-driven, dull, passionless, visionless, unprincipled, egotistical and fundamentally stupid arsewipe of a puppet who’s a sad waste of space too.

    • Rhinocrates 23.3
      17 November 2012 at 9:45 pm

      People have their tells – Key has that hiss of indrawn breath to show that he knows he’s lying (yes, OK, lips moving and words coming out is a tell that he’s lying, but I mean deliberately since lying is a matter of reflex for him) and Shearer has the lip-licking to show that he’s scared.

  24. joe90 24
    17 November 2012 at 9:28 pm

    The reality.

    http://www.juancole.com/2012/11/wagging-the-dog-in-gaza-netanyahus-skirmish-of-fear-sternfeld.html

    With the 2013 elections just months away, Barak sees polls for his now rapidly vanishing party sending him to early retirement, and just like in Hanukkah 2008, Israel decided to break a ceasefire and assassin the Hamas senior military persona, Ahmad Jaberi. Hamas, as expected, responded with firing rockets on Israel’s southern regions, and to the great satisfaction of both Hamas and Israel, a full-scale war is being evolved.

    http://www.jeremiahhaber.com/2012/11/israels-pre-election-war.html

    I spoke with an expert on the Israeli military shortly after “Operation Cast Lead,” and when I told him that many argued that the operation was a reaction to Hamas rocket-fire, he laughed. He said that Hamas rocket-fire was deliberately provoked when Israel broke the cease-fire so that Israel could do a little “spring cleaning,” deplete Hamas’s arsenal of weapons. He told me that this happens every few years, and that I should expect it to happen in another few years. Israel will assassinate a Hamas leader, Hamas will have to respond (wouldn’t Israel, under those circumstances?) and Israel will perform a “clean up” operation. If Hamas is smart and doesn’t play into Israel’s hands, then Israel will also come out ahead, because it will be weakened in the eyes of the Palestinian public. It’s win-win for Israel. That’s what having control means.

    edit: This too.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/assassinating-the-chance-for-calm.html

    The assassination of Jaabari was a pre-emptive strike against the possibility of a long term ceasefire. Netanyahu has acted with extreme irresponsibility. He has endangered the people of Israel and struck a real blow against the few important more pragmatic elements within Hamas. He has given another victory to those who seek our destruction, rather than strengthen those who are seeking to find a possibility to live side-by-side, not in peace, but in quiet.

  25. felix 25
    17 November 2012 at 10:13 pm

    I know not everyone here always thinks particularly highly of Messrs Trotter and Bradbury, but together with Wayne Hope they had a good discussion on Citizen A the other day.about where Labour is at, among other things.

    Recent media coverage of The Standard comes up in the discussion.

    http://youtu.be/FcjopHGLnwU

  26. prism 26
    17 November 2012 at 11:56 pm

    Searching documentary about the anti-semitic question that I was fortunate to see recently.
    Try watching the trailer. Very questioning, and shows some people are thinking seriously about Israel and Jewish attitudes. One thing comes across – how hypersensitive to negative feelings about them, no matter how fleeting or isolated, some Jews are. Doc is called Defamation.
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1377278/

    • muzza 26.1
      18 November 2012 at 9:01 am

      Hi Prism.

      People just take a ganders at how the religious racial state was signed up for, and the powers behind making it happen, then take a look at the “peace” in the middle east since then to understand that the Israel story is nothing like what the media or recent history want to paint it as being about!

      It is a sick joke on humanity, and like the political correctness movement, if one dares even questions Israel, one is labelled as anti-semetic, and any discusion shut down. What needs to be rememebed is that many Jewish people were sacrificed in odrer to create the State, so in some ways the Jewish people, mostly those who were poor, and hoping to return were those who were sacrificed.

      Looking at it, to me the situation is entirely manufactured to serve the purpose, that has been the 64 years of ME war since, which has of course spilled out into Africa, and beyond, its all part of the same game. The planet is living with the pre and post formation of Israel every day, one just needs look at our shameless pro israel media to see the powers behind the story telling, and how will that change!

      Only by people waking up and challenging what they believe to know about history, because we are not living in history, we are ALL living in the lies created by others, and passed of as history!

      • Rogue Trooper 26.1.1
        18 November 2012 at 11:49 am

        Kierkegaard’s work presents a viable contrast to the “Hegelian” historical determinism of particular peoples that is so often deferred to by the status quo

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