Written By:
Bill - Date published:
3:27 pm, March 10th, 2014 - 50 comments
Categories: class war, International -
Tags: International, killings, ukraine
So, it’s emerging that the snipers who shot and killed 94 people in Kiev immediately prior to Viktor Yanukovych fleeing the Ukraine, may have been hired by elements within the Maidan movement. (Both police and protesters, it is being claimed, were shot by the same munitions)
The allegations were aired during a telephone conversation between Estonia’s Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton. The conversation has been confirmed as genuine and starts proper at about 2 min. ( I’ve provided an embedded link from ‘The Guardian’ because the direct youtube link asks people to ‘sign in’ because ‘video content may be inappropriate for some users’) edit: while checking the links, I discovered that ‘The Guardian has ‘fallen over’…so here’s another link to the same telephone conversation in the meantime.
As I linked in an earlier post, the interim government of the oligarchs in Ukraine (who are apparently refusing to investigate the sniper killings) doesn’t have the trust of ordinary people, who remain mobilised, and who may well attempt to kick out one administration after the next as happened in Argentina a few years back.
Mercenary and ambitious elements embedded within anti-government protests employing lethal force against the people whose side they claim to be on, and then pointing the finger of blame at their opponents has precedent. Business interests behind the wholly manufactured and ultimately defeated coup of 2002 in Venezuela used the same tactic of shooting people dead and (in that case) blaming government supporters.
Meanwhile, in summary, there are simply bastards with grand plans and bankrolled puppets, many tangled strings…and the people of the Ukraine on a hiding to nothing.
The current rise of populism challenges the way we think about people’s relationship to the economy.We seem to be entering an era of populism, in which leadership in a democracy is based on preferences of the population which do not seem entirely rational nor serving their longer interests. ...
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Yes. I keep thinking how the first great round of globalisation from 1845 onwards ended in exactly this scenario in 1914. It’s more than a little worrisome really.
There are differences. For a whole lot of reasons there is far less appetite for war now than there was in 1914. There will be no queues of farm-boys and their horses lining up to get onto ships to head off into the ‘adventure’ of a nuclear holocaust.
Putin will carve-off Crimea for the time being. But Ukraine will not be stable. While Obama may be willing to tolerate the loss of face, the mad right wing will not. Already we’ve had that crazy woman from Alaska ‘who can see Russia from her home’ – make a bad jibe along the lines ‘the only thing that stops a bad man with nukes is a good man with nukes’; a line that was vociferously gobbled up by her audience. Obama’s walking a domestic tight-rope on this, needing to make the right noises to appease his domestic audience, while not setting a match to Europe.
These events have set a chain in motion. There will be another crisis and no-one can predict what or when. However at some point there will be a cold realisation of what the consequences of failure are going to be.
At that point a grim sanity may prevail and the nations of the earth will reluctantly begin to concede their rights to warfare. The alternative is extinction.
Good point Red, the First World War said to have been the result of Count whats-his-face getting ‘fragged’ in His coach, according to my long departed dear old Irish Grandma was simply the end result of a laissez faire Capitalist System that had gone tits up,(much the same as the current one),
That and the tide of Socialism that was during the late 1800,s and early years of the 1900,s washing across Europe including Britain in all Her broken glory,
The Socialist means of communication, the humble pamphlet, passed from hand to hand across the Continent had woken up in the minds of more than the Russian workers that it was they who created the actual wealth while their masters denied to them in many cases even the basics of life,
The tool of ‘war’ used down through the centuries by the ruling classes to silence the demands of the unhappy masses then turned into the slaughter on an industrial scale that was World War One,the cynical ruling classes simply seeing such ‘sacrifice’ in a war against each other as a far more expedient means of silencing those who would call for a fairer system of both monetary and political distribution without having to involve themselves in the direct slaughter of their own citizens,
Such wars rely upon the psychology glaringly apparent in today’s society where the cynics in charge use the resource of owning the mass media directing those in a financial position above being totally poor to hate those who are, the psychology in the case of war is simply extended across borders…
The parallels are quite apparent, but I’m not willing to be drawn into the trap of predicting the details of WW3 just yet. There will be a crisis, there will be another tsunami of credit defaults larger than the last time. The money system will falter.
But the political fall-out is tougher to predict; there are a lot more players in the global order than there were in 1914. At that time you could count the truly important individuals without taking your shoes off.
And the difficulty for the ruling classes (and again its a mistake to characterise them in a monolithic fashion) is that an all-out nuclear exchange goes beyond the mere industrial-scale slaughter of the unhappy masses. It’s a potential threat to them as well. Even those who shelter in deep-bunkers understand that emergence would be forever fraught.
But yes your grandmother was a very clear thinking woman.
Yeah Red, missing from the equation needed for an all of Europe conflagration is a broken Germany along with a belligerent leader of that particular nation,
The remnants of the welfare state in most of the western nations is also a factor, while there is still a semblance of this remaining, young people will remain relatively removed from becoming politically angry…
France and Britain owed massive debts to Wall Street, and the bankers weren’t about to let a Kraut victory ruin the repayment schedule. Hence the USA threw its weight behind “the Allies” despite Wilson having been voted in on an anti-war platform, and popular sentiment being completely against US involvement in the war.
A massive propaganda machine was mobilised to completely reverse public opinion. And it was the academics and the intellectuals who often fell for the convoluted arguments of why war was absolutely necessary – while knowing that they themselves would not be the ones sent off.
CV
Is this an interest of yours – the history of the wars or Europe and the great powers? You seem very informed.
“A massive propaganda machine was mobilised”
Including the sinking of the Lusitania.
Such wars rely upon the psychology glaringly apparent in today’s society where the cynics in charge use the resource of owning the mass media directing those in a financial position above being totally poor to hate those who are, the psychology in the case of war is simply extended across borders…
Just a side step away from the Ukraine thread bad 12 but there was a thoughtful interview about Rwanda on Radiionz in the weekend I think. The swirling currents of deeply held emotional connections are hard to deal with. And heartbreakingly the right things were not done at the beginning before it ramped up to all its mad ferocity and brutality. A miasma of madness and wrong-headedness.
Indeed,Rwanda was the perfect piece of ‘blame gaming’, if i can be forgiven using the word perfect in conjunction with such horror,
Mixed in with the poverty of both sides of this conflict was hundreds of years of tribalism not really understood widely by western commentators,it was simple for the hatred of their impoverishment to be blamed upon each other,
Obviously the closer to the cave we live the more barbaric we can become,although the barbarism of Rwanda is a matter of debate, where we find it barbaric of the Rwandans to have made much use of the humble machete in an up close and personal orgy of violence, the force used in Iraq by the coalition for the killing and beamed across out TV sets nightly while we ate dinner was a barbarism in terms of casualties as great if nor greater than what occurred in Rwanda,(there i go again, the word great hardly a fitting descriptive of such destruction),
for a true piece of the barbaric tho, we cannot go past the US Prez who with the signing of an executive order can assassinate whole extended family groups with a drone strike in Pakistan a country the US is not even at war with…
Interesting – in a kind of despondent way – that the first 4 comments are posited deep within accepted and self validated historical and contemporary frameworks – constructed and passed out by bastards with grand plans and bankrolled puppets.
Fuck the lot of them. Yes, what they do has real world consequences – like 94 people dying from sniper fire… for example. But the longer we give them some grand legitimacy by setting our understandings only within their frames of reference, the longer they will continue to cause mayhem.
And yes – I know I haven’t expressed that as well as I might.
I do hear you Bill.
I guess the default position is to use the language and frameworks that others will understand. But ultimately you are right, the only way out is to render the “bastards with grand plans and bankrolled puppets” irrelevant.
To my mind that implies a completely new way of ordering the world. But it’s not easy to talk about.
Robustly rejecting (or challenging) all the grand interpretations, reasonings, justifications and condemnations of those with ‘higher standing, purpose and rights’ would be a simple enough beginning. Maybe a first step would be an utter rejection of the ‘black hat/white hat’ nonsense that’s peddled at us. At pains of repeating myself too often – they are all bad bastards.
edit. So, as an example, Obama wants to wank on about illegitimate referendums in the Crimea? Bring up Kosovo.
People need to learn (or wake up and learn!) to question everything. Don’t just accept as fact information you see, hear or read from any source, especially the mainstream media which constantly reports bullshit dressed up as news.
Hmm. I’m not ready to sing Crimea River yet, but so far this annexation looks like one of the cleanest land conquests in recent history. Especially when compared to anything I can think of since, oh, World War II.
Obama is a confused softcock of a President who doesn’t deserve to play on the same field as Putin. He should STFU and concentrate on what remains of domestic policy he can actually change.
So…I’m going to bang on this line one last time and then leave it.
There are far more of us fuckers than there are of them.
Putin, Obama, whoever in the EU or the Ukraine or the Crimea should be kicked into touch in such a way as they would never again dare lift their presumptuous fcked heads to attempt peddling their bullshit and poison on ordinary people ever again. And the same for any so-called leader (whether elected or otherwise) who would throw any support behind any of them.
Now, I know I’m dreaming…but internationalism wasn’t always such a foreign concept to such a large proportion of the left. We, as probably the only expression of solidarity we can execute at the moment, should be condemning them all at every opportunity instead of buying into their ‘silly buggers’ game.
Bill,
Now, I know I’m dreaming…but internationalism wasn’t always such a foreign concept to such a large proportion of the left.
Not to me. I’ve been idly thinking of a series of posts on the topic, but work has been too draining recently.
When you look at it all the real challenges to the Left are global in nature and we keep getting fucked over because we have no global responses.
When work catches you a break, try one on ‘How the Left Failed to Use the GFC to Form a New Narrative’
Well if Australia decided to invade NZ I’d not expect much in the way of military conflict either.
And are you in Sarah Palin’s camp here. Nothing that a few good nukes couldn’t fix?
Merging or otherwise requires a post all to itself. Migration and intermarriage seem to be doing the job in the meantime.
There was an excellent discussion of the Ukraine situation by Wayne Brittenden (sp?) and, then, a US academic on the Sunday programme on National Radio in the weekend. Completely different perspective.
On the question of the grand narratives put out by our ‘betters’ (aka ‘our representatives’), short-circuiting them can be done by repeating the simple truth that none of this is about principle, values or even ideology: It is purely competition between those who occupy structural positions of power.
Yup to the countering of the ‘grand narratives’. And that link to a passably comprehensive and balanced background to this coterie of ‘grand players’ is… http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/2588325
Why do you think that was a balanced article?
What leads you to think it wasn’t passably comprehensive and balanced?
It seemed to be very one sided as it made a big deal of the US involvement and the neonazi element in Ukrainian society as opposed to the very real opposition to the corrupt government of the previous president and the efforts of Putin to reestablish Russian hegemony. Did you not pick this up?
You saying that US machinations in the Ukraine and fascist elements taking up positions of power in the Ukrainian parliament off the back of popular opposition to Yanukovych’s government aren’t big deals?!
And…well, the Russian hegemony is an odd one. Both the US and the EU want to pull the Ukraine under their influence while Russia wants it’s post putsch influence to remain undiluted…which is somewhat different to, as you put it, re-establishing Russian hegemony.
Anyway, as I keep repeating, I’ve got no time for any of them. I suspect many Ukrainians have similar feelings but are aware that their position is somewhere between a rock and a hard place.
And at least that interview moved away from the tiresome ‘us and ours and all that we do = good and above question’ versus ‘them and theirs and all that they do = bad and beyond question’ nonsense.
anyway, because it’s worth the read, I’ll relink the Guardian piece from comment 10.2 http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/ukraine-and-west-hot-air-hypocrisy-crimea-russia
I would agree the interview presented the other side of the argument from that presented by other media sources in the West. It was not balanced though and because it wasn’t balanced it was not comprehensive. Do you not agree?
Well, it was balanced and comprehensive to the extent that it did, indeed, reference the claims made by Obama, NATO, etc. about what Russia was doing.
I think you are forgetting that the point of the item was not to give a comprehensive history of the Ukraine and the current conflict but, rather, to take a comprehensive and balanced look at the claims being made by Obama et al. about why what was happening in the Ukraine was happening.
You have to remember – when discussing ‘balance’ and ‘comprehensiveness’ in a piece of journalism – just what it is trying to explain and elucidate.
To say this piece ‘lacks balance’ because it doesn’t mention the political oppression of the deposed President is akin to saying a report about a game of rugby ‘lacks balance’ because it didn’t mention the result of the netball game on the other side of the city.
For those who are drawing parallels with WW1, I highly recommend The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman, which outlines the path to that disaster. Germany was seeking dominance in Europe particularly as France had recovered so quickly after the Franco-Prussian War and paid off its war indemnity much faster than expected. Germany feared encirclement by hostile powers and once Russia, Britain and France started their close relationship, it was only a matter of time before Germany lashed out. But they had been planning the invasion of France via neutral Belgium since at least 1905.
Russia today fears encroachment of other powers into what it considers its sphere. Further, they want to continue to export their natural gas through the pipeline that passes through Ukraine. I think their actions may backfire. First, yes they’ll get Crimea, probably as a satellite, but all the service – eg the powerlines run via a small isthmus from Ukraine. Until they build the promised bridge from Russia, they will have trouble guaranteeing supply. Secondly this will thrust Ukraine into NATO. Third, Turkey, a NATO member, may deny access to the Bosporus. Fourth, Germany may slow down its plan to shut down its nuclear plants to hit Russian natural gas. Overall I think Putin has worsened his position when he could have just sought an assurance that the Russian leases to the bases still stood.
To pick on a technical point. It is hardly surprising that both the police and protesters would be shot by the same type of munition. They would both be using the same type of weapons. In the Ukraine the AK47 (actually the modernized AK74) and the Dragunov sniper rifle would be ubiquitous, and there may well be only a couple of ammunition manufacturers.
Unless it could be shown that the rounds that killed both protestors and police came from the same batch, or that the same weapon killed both protestors and police, this does not really stack up. The bullets could/should be examined to see if the marks produced during firing showed they came from the same weapon. But I have not seen that being alleged.
It would need to be more than one such shooting, to go beyond an accidental killing by a sniper of both a protester and a policeman. In terms of all the rounds coming from the same production batch you would also have to test the spent cartridge cases. I suspect not easy to do, since snipers usually retrieve their spent cartridge cases.
If this has all been shown surely this would be well publicized by the Russians. Unless there is an alternative allegation is that this was all a setup that the Russians did all this to provide the pretext to intervene in Crimea. But the view expressed on The Standard is that the whole Ukranian affair is supposed to be the fault of fascist groups. It is a bit like the apologists for the USSR in 1939/1940 until Germany invaded the USSR.
Or is it really just a conspiracy theory.
But the view expressed on The Standard is that the whole Ukranian affair is supposed to be the fault of fascist groups.
The view being expressed here is a great deal of sympathy for the Ukranian people, and things would be a whole lot better if all the plotting, greedy bastards conniving over their land simply left them alone. I don’t think anyone has been careless enough to use the ‘fascist’ word. (Besides it’s become so loaded with historic misinterpretation it’s more or less lost any useful meaning other than an emotionally noisy snarl.)
And while I tend to agree with your thoughts around the sniper rounds, I’m not sure they get us any closer to the truth than Bill’s original assertion that they may have been a false flag provocation. Both possibilities remain open until we get more evidence.
RL – I’m quite happy to call Svoboda and those to the right of them fascists. I am not using the word carelessly, but I’m also not going to refrain from using it when it’s appropriate.
Oh for Christs sake Wayne! The government is apparently refusing to carry out any kind of investigation. That’s the same government that’s kinda stacked with very unsavoury shits from the extreme right. That’s the same unsavoury shits that Victoria Nuland’s stated as the preferred ascendents to power should Yanukovych go. And that’s the same Yanukovych who made all number of concessions to the opposition in a failed attempt to remain in power til elections in May, who, so we are to believe, ‘lost it’ and in a moment of madness had the whole place shot up.
As for the preponderance of any particular types of gun across Ukrainian society, well….I have no idea the gun ownership numbers, never mind the models. But I think we agree an investigation is warranted given the initial evidence from wound patterns that would seem to indicate sniper bullets killed both police and protesters, no? Like I wrote in the post, this shit has been pulled before.
As for whatever being well publicised by the Russians…how widespread has the reporting been on that phone conversation linked in the post? Or, how deep was the analysis of Nuland’s ‘Fuck the EU’ leak? Such an open, impartial and intelligent investigative media we have, is it not?
Meanwhile, perhaps Wayne, you’d care to show where I have expressed a view that “the whole Ukranian affair is supposed to be the fault of fascist groups” or where I have ever excused or explained away the actions of any aggressive state action?
To add to your technical point, Wayne: the AK74 and AK47 use the 7.62mm x 39 round, while the Dragunov sniper rifles use either 7.62×54 or the newer 7N1 or 7N14 rounds. While the 7.62×39 is very widespread, the rounds used in the Dragunov would be a little more restricted. The actual sniper rounds are generally steel jacketed as well, while police rounds tend to be hollow point.
Merely being the same type of bullet may already narrow it down more than you like. Anyway, you and John are welcome to join any NATO strike. We’ll wait until Johnny comes marching home again. Just leave our kids out of it, and stop misrepresenting our views while you’re at it. While I have no doubt that fascist groups have taken advantage of the situation in the Ukraine, it would be stupid to say it’s solely their fault. They wouldn’t have done anything without US and EU funding and encouragement.
To be honest the Ukraine crisis is already over. Once the vote is held everyone goes back to business as usual. The vote in Crimea is actually the West’s get out of jail card, since they will be able to say the people have spoken.
There might be some symbolic sanctions, and some negotiations on various issues of borders, repatriation, compensation, etc. But no one wants a Cold War mark two.
“To be honest the Ukraine crisis is already over.”
Ha! So those people who have taken powerful positions in the government in Kiev for themselves…they’re going to go ahead with the May elections, are they?
That’s one way of saying “Forget about it now. Our mates in Washington have got what they want.” Maybe you should have got ShonKey to lend you a Navy frigate, or one of those oil response barges, and you could sit off Rangitoto with a “Mission Accomplished” banner.
ak74 use 5.46×32 mm round ak47 7.62×39
Oops. I got mixed up with the AKM. Thanks.
I’m with Wayne on this. The story that the snipers were brought in by the Maidan is a disgraceful distortion of the truth.
The best analysis I’ve read so far is this one by the historian Timothy Snyder from his blog in the New York Review of Books
http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/
What the fuck is a “historian” doing trying to analyse the news. Its ridiculous.
Possibly historians are the best people to analyse the news CV. I’d welcome it if they did it a lot more often, instead of the mindless, contextless, sensationalism that is otherwise palmed off as ‘news’ these days.
My take-away from all of this is with Bill – that us ordinary people really are not privy to the truth, that there really is no-one we can trust to tell it to us and we are at the mercy of propaganda merchants who will tell us whatever suits them.
On that basis I call a bastard on all their belligerent houses. Which is sad because a bunch of very brave people died in Kiev and we may never really know why.
Another historian’s POV here
Its about Empires butting up against each other…
Its about oil and gas….
Its about money……
Its about nationalism….
Its about ethnicities…..
Its about people….ergh……people????????? Yes, people come a distant last in this whole fiasco.
Bill just grabbed this for you to read – http://dissentingdemocrat.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/things-arent-exactly-clear/
Fog of war people – they are creating a fog of war – and guess what??? working stiffs get shafted again.
Not just basing this on that article – but I do believe that people are slowly, despite the ‘best’ efforts of the bulk of the msm, ‘getting it’. Question is – what next?
Hey, hey, ho, ho I won’t fight for no corporation, no!
Hmm. Also worth the read.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/ukraine-and-west-hot-air-hypocrisy-crimea-russia
I find the clearest understanding and commentary on the Ukraine is given by Paul Craig Roberts:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/
What’s happened is very dangerous and will continue to be so it was an American financed and encouraged Putsch ( A sudden attempt by a group to overthrow a government.) an overthrow of a democratically elected government albeit incompetent and corrupt but still democratic the sit now is not democratic. Extreme fascist elements now control western and central Ukraine.
@ cv – because I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt, I will read your question as ‘irony’.
@ aj – some historians’ pov’s carry more weight than others
GARY LEUPP is Professor of History at Tufts University, and holds a secondary appointment in the Department of Religion. He is the author of Servants, Shophands and Laborers in in the Cities of Tokugawa Japan; Male Colors: The Construction of Homosexuality in Tokugawa Japan; and Interracial Intimacy in Japan: Western Men and Japanese Women, 1543-1900. He is a contributor to Hopeless: Barack Obama and the Politics of Illusion, (AK Press).
Timothy Snyder Timothy Snyder received his doctorate from the University of Oxford in 1997, where he was a British Marshall Scholar. Before joining the faculty at Yale in 2001, he held fellowships in Paris and Vienna, and an Academy Scholarship at Harvard. He is the author of five award-winning books, including: Nationalism, Marxism, and Modern Central Europe: A Biography of Kazimierz Kelles-Krauz (Harvard Press, 1998); The Reconstruction of Nations: Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Belarus, 1569-1999 (Yale Press, 2003); Sketches from a Secret War: A Polish Artist’s Mission to Liberate Soviet Ukraine (Yale Press, 2005); The Red Prince: The Secret Lives of A Habsburg Archduke (Basic Books, 2008). He is also the co-editor of two books Wall Around the West: State Power and Immigration Controls in Europe and North America (Rowman and Littlefield, 2001) and Stalin and Europe: War, Terror, Domination (forthcoming). In 2010 he published Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, a history of Nazi and Soviet mass killing on the lands between Berlin and Moscow. It has received a number of honors, including the Leipzig Prize for European Understanding and the He teaches undergraduate and graduate courses in modern East European political history.
Scholarly Articles “The Causes of the Holocaust,” Contemporary European History, Contemporary European History, Vol. 21, No. 2, 149-168. “The Causes of Ukrainian-Polish Ethnic Cleansing, 1943,” Past and Present, 179 (2003), 197-234. 1a and 1b. “To Resolve the Ukrainian Problem Once and for All’: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ukrainians in Poland, 1943-1947,” Journal of Cold War Studies, Volume 1, 2 (1999), 86-120. “Leben und Sterben der Juden in Wolhynien,” Osteuropa, 57, 4, (2007), 123-142. “Memory of Sovereignty and Sovereignty Over Memory: Twentieth-Century Poland, Ukraine, and Lithuania” in Jan-Werner Müller, ed., Memory and Power in Postwar Europe, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2002, 39-58. “Die Armia Krajowa aus ukrainischer Perspektive,” in Bernard Chiari and Jerzy Kochanowski, eds., Auf der Suche nach nationaler Identität: Geschichte und Mythos der polnischen Heimatarmee, Munich: Oldenbourg Verlag, 2003. “A Polish Socialist For Jewish Nationality: Kazimierz Kelles-Krauz (1872-1905),” Polin: Studies in Polish Jewry, 12 (1999), 257-271. “Kazimierz Kelles-Krauz (1872-1905): A pioneering scholar of modern nationalism,” Nations and Nationalism, 3, 2 (1997), 1-20. “The Poles: Western Aspirations, Eastern Minorities,” in Charles King and Neil Melvin, eds., Nations Abroad: Diasporas and National Identity in the Former Soviet Union, Boulder: Westview, 1998, 179-208. “Soviet Monopoly,” in John Williamson, ed., Economic Consequences of Soviet Disintegration, Washington, D.C.: Institute for International Economics, 1993, 176-243. “Three Endings and a Beginning: Shimon Redlich’s Galicia,” on Shimon Redlich, Together and Apart In Brzezany: Poles, Jews, and Ukrainians, 1919-1945, Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2002, in Yad Vashem Studies, 34, 2006. and so on
Yeah, Huggin. An academic can have a list of writings and honours or awards as long as your arm. It doesn’t mean that they don’t simply parrot the scripts of the powerful. I can think of a few (for some reason) well respected academics I had the misfortune to study under who would reasonably and fairly fit beneath the term ‘apparatchik’ or ‘commissar’.