Are we this racist?

Written By: - Date published: 5:14 pm, April 16th, 2012 - 276 comments
Categories: racism - Tags:

A day after a Sunday Star Times piece about how racism is getting worse in New Zealand comes the apparent proof.

You can’t read anything scientific into a self-selecting online poll, but there’s no reason to think that someone would bother deliberately skewing this one. And that means at least 6500 people (out of 11600 – 56%) have agreed with the notion that landlords should be allowed to be racist in selecting their tenants. Decide that just because someone’s skin is black, brown or yellow, they don’t want them here.

Everyone’s a little bit racist, but racist enough to agree with that proposition?  Do we have a problem as a nation?

276 comments on “Are we this racist? ”

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  1. mickysavage 1
    16 April 2012 at 5:19 pm

    I am ashamed to be a kiwi …

    • higherstandard 1.1
      16 April 2012 at 5:26 pm

      I am ashamed that you are a Kiwi too.

      • mickysavage 1.1.1
        16 April 2012 at 5:35 pm

        So did you vote to agree with the proposition that landlords should be free to discriminate? 

        • higherstandard 1.1.1.1
          16 April 2012 at 6:27 pm

          The only online polls I take part in are the Horizon polls.

          • Matthew Whitehead 1.1.1.1.1
            16 April 2012 at 11:52 pm

            Nice dodge, but do you agree that landlords should be able to discriminate based on race in selecting their tenants?

            • higherstandard 1.1.1.1.1.1
              17 April 2012 at 4:37 pm

              No landlords shouldn’t be allowed to discriminate on race when selecting their tenants.

              But it’s interesting to muse on how they should discriminate when choosing tenants, I certainly discriminate against smokers for a start.

  2. Lanthanide 2
    16 April 2012 at 5:26 pm

    One thing that surprised me a little when I signed up with a rental management company to manage my rental, is that they talked about how they screen tenants.

    The guy was quite blatant about it: they give you a short list of the people interested along with their background etc, and you can choose who can rent the house. He said, for example, that a lot of landlords don’t like Indians or other ethnic people in their house because they often make smelly food that can leave permanent smells in houses.

    • Lanthanide 2.1
      16 April 2012 at 5:27 pm

      That’s what I get for clearing out my browser cache at work, it forgot my email address :/

    • QoT 2.2
      16 April 2012 at 6:59 pm

      a lot of landlords don’t like Indians or other ethnic people in their house because they often make smelly food that can leave permanent smells in houses.

      I hate shit like this. It’s like, if one can ignore the blatant, small-minded racism, it just makes no goddamn sense. What, foodies from Good White Families aren’t going to stink the place out with cheeses that smell like rotting socks? Students from Good White Families won’t hotbox the bathroom?

      I have known, in my misspent youth, several people whose rooms, when they moved out of their flats, had to be completely renovated because professionals with gigantic steam-cleaners and industrial-strength solvents couldn’t shift the filth. All white guys. But hey, at least they weren’t cooking delicious curry, that would completely ruin your property values …

    • prism 2.3
      17 April 2012 at 8:52 am

      Food and smells can be a problem from some ingredients such as curry, so I see that as a valid concern. I once cooked some newly bought fish in a motel with the windows open but it can’t have been fresh and the smell lingered on despite fans and open vents. I visited a retirement home yesterday and the smell of overcooked cabbage hung in the air. So smells do register.

      But the retention of the bond for cleaning purposes, would cater for clearing curry and other smells I would think. The walls and ceilings would have to be wiped and dried so not a small job. But not impossible. If the unit was relet to a similar ethnicity those people would presumably find the odours welcoming.

      • dd 2.3.1
        17 April 2012 at 9:02 am

        Yeah, we moved into a place that had obviously had a lot of curry cooked up in it. A bit of cleaning was required but no biggie.

        How does the bond work in regards to food/smell? If the owner decided that the place smelt too much when the tenant left would that be grounds to hold back bond money?

        Would it be ok to make it clear to the tenant before they took up the lease that the house must be left ‘relatively smell free’? Or is this just a given?

    • jack 2.4
      17 April 2012 at 10:06 pm

      He’s right, they do leave smelly rooms because of the spices they use. I am racist against anyone who
      doesn’t pay their rent on time and trashes my house. It is my dutie to protect my property.

  3. shorts 3
    16 April 2012 at 5:31 pm

    we’ve always had a problem with racism in this country – we just don’t acknowledge it much

    bit like our 100% pure campaign – its always been bollocks

    we’re not as nice a people as we’d like to think – course we can say we’re better than someplace else as that often seems to massage our feelings of guilt

    • Jim Nald 3.1
      16 April 2012 at 7:30 pm

      Having lived in about half a dozen countries, my personal experience is racism is alive and well in NZ- covert, rather than overt. Often, the ‘true colours’ of prejudice, ignorance, resentment or racism is revealed when the culprits reckon it is ‘safe’ to do so. And sometimes, it just pops up a lot more openly.

      Friends and family members, who are the European partner of the mixed race coupling, have recounted many instances of what have been said at work, in social circles and in public when other races do not seem to be around.

  4. Jenny 4
    16 April 2012 at 6:32 pm

    Racism in housing.
    A friends of mine rang up to rent a place in Mission Bay. The husband went to meet the landlord only to be told that the house had been taken.

    His wife rang up and made another appointment with the landlord who told her the house was still available, he then let her the house.

    Guess why the man was lied to and turned down for the house, while his partner was acceptable.

    Needless to say this ignorant bigot was irate when the couple and their child moved in.

    • rosy 4.1
      16 April 2012 at 7:00 pm

      +1 yep, my daughter has had the same problem – her partner could never get a place to rent for some reason, but she always managed to rent one.

      • Akldnut 4.1.1
        16 April 2012 at 10:01 pm

        My first wife went and aplied for a flat to rent and was told it had gone, I went around an hour later and was told it was mine if I wanted it.
        Needless to say I told her where to shove it. Racism is alive and well!

        • dd 4.1.1.1
          17 April 2012 at 7:46 am

          I do think women have more luck in finding places though?

          My wife always finds our rentals. I never have any luck. We are both white.

          So either sexism is at play to or I just make a really bad impression.

  5. Hateatea 5
    16 April 2012 at 6:44 pm

    Well, as I never claim to be a ‘kiwi’, not wanting to be considered as a flightless bird with a long proboscis that only comes out at night, I may not be considered someone who should comment 😉 however, my 5 cents anyway.
     
    After a period in our history where racism mostly went underground and was expressed more subtly than when I was a child, it appears to me as if there is a significant tranche of the population that thinks it alright to express their racism openly. Sadly, many of them see on-line, mostly anonymous fora  fertile places to share their nastiness.
     
    It is hard to stop when you cannot look the offenders in the eye but hopefully, enough people with ethics and passion will continue to show their fellow citizens that not everyone thinks, speaks or acts as the racists do.

    • Jim Nald 5.1
      16 April 2012 at 8:21 pm

      Once upon a time, actually fairly recently but it can now feel quite a long while ago, the Government of the day was strong on social justice and an inclusive society – they got damned for being “politically correct”.

      And the Orewa speech was, to put it mildly, less than helpful for publicly fueling and giving blessing to covert, underground racist sentiments.

      • mickysavage 5.1.1
        16 April 2012 at 8:31 pm

        Aye and I was less than impressed with my party’s response at the time.  Mallard in particular went through and cut the funding for a number of programs that were targeted at, for instance, pacifica education.  A couple of good friends lost their jobs about it.

        He should have stood up and said “this is stupid” and faced them down.  Going along with this sort of crap only makes it worse. 

        • Jim Nald 5.1.1.1
          16 April 2012 at 8:43 pm

          Thanks for this comment.

          That marked the change of tide for me. My enthusiasm and respect for the Government of the day took the first plunge.

          I was later informed that that Government felt it was the appropriate response then in the face of divisive politics that was being played.

          Still, I thought they should have faced down the dirty, nasty, racist dog-whistling.

          I long for a return of the aspirations and real policies to advance social justice and to create an inclusive society. I hope I will see that again in my lifetime. Soon.

          • Kotahi Tane Huna 5.1.1.1.1
            16 April 2012 at 8:49 pm

            “…they should have faced down the dirty, nasty, racist dog-whistling.”

            Agreed! When did appeasement ever produce good results in this context?

          • mickysavage 5.1.1.1.2
            16 April 2012 at 8:50 pm

            Yep Jim

            Some things ought to be more important than political power.

            And I still believe that principled leadership is more important than pandering to prejudice that is skin deep. 

            • Kotahi Tane Huna 5.1.1.1.2.1
              16 April 2012 at 9:01 pm

              Principled competent leadership has nothing to fear from prejudice.

    • Kotahi Tane Huna 5.2
      16 April 2012 at 8:32 pm

      Leaving aside the obvious mischievous fun of posting this link – yes, recent studies show a strong relationship between stupidity, racism and conservatism – it includes the observation that:

      Prejudice is of particular interest because understanding the roots of racism and bias could help eliminate them…many anti-prejudice programs encourage participants to see things from another group’s point of view. That mental exercise may be too taxing for people of low IQ.

      “There may be cognitive limits in the ability to take the perspective of others, particularly foreigners… “Much of the present research literature suggests that our prejudices are primarily emotional in origin rather than cognitive. These two pieces of information suggest that it might be particularly fruitful for researchers to consider strategies to change feelings toward outgroups,” rather than thoughts.

      I hope they have some measure of success.

    • the pink postman 5.3
      17 April 2012 at 4:01 pm

      Racism often shows its evil face in the most unexpected places.
      A few years ago I went into a local,retail shop with the purpose off buying a TV. Whilst I was conversing with the shop owner a Maori man came in the shop owner was more interested in watching where this Maori was doing.He did his best to catch the eye of his assistant who finally followed the Maori man at a safe distance .It was obvious that they “were keeping an eye on him” meanwhile a bunch of white kids from local private school rich kids sons came in and helped themselves .So busy was the shop people keeping an eye on the Maori man that they missed the posh kids thieving. I just kept quite then when the owner finaly gave me his full attention I had the satisfaction of telling him he was racist bastard /
      and to put his TVs up,his arse . I found out some time later that he was a prominant member of the local National Party .interesting!

      • Vicky32 5.3.1
        17 April 2012 at 5:01 pm

        meanwhile a bunch of white kids from local private school rich kids sons came in and helped themselves .

        Your experience reminds me of one I had in the local supermarket today. Non-posh,xxxx  kids were cycling around through the supermarket, and being ignored (to my annoyance, as they were missing customers by millimetres). Thanks to one kid zooming right past me, I saw inside his hoodie, where he had one hand, steering with the other – and I glimpsed the swag he’d nicked on his way through.)
        The staff were too busy to tell these kids to shove off.. and the kids were having some school holiday fun. The race of the kids is irrelevant, so I won’t mention that, or the race of the staff, which is the same as that of the kids.
        Just to say that conclusions ought never to be jumped to.

  6. coolas 6
    16 April 2012 at 7:01 pm

    Racial stereo-typing fixes in some people’s heads and they can’t get over it. Brown skin – must be dirty and lazy and can go primitive on you – never mind the PhD and top job.

    I’m not surprised by this poll, and agree with shorts, that the racism in NZ is played down. Our history with Maori aint pretty, and Islanders, and the Chinese had to pay a poll tax ’till the 1950’s just because they were yellow-ish.

    Now with Indians and Somalis and … how do we cope? They’re just not like us, eh, and fuck knows what they’ll do to our houses.

  7. happynz 7
    16 April 2012 at 7:11 pm

    Throughout our schooling we often hear that hoary statement, ‘There’s no such thing as a stupid question.’ Er…that sentiment may be withdrawn with a gander at the weekly doofusosity℠ offered up by the SST weekly polls.

  8. Foreign Waka 8
    16 April 2012 at 7:12 pm

    Fantastic if Kiwis are aware of this, and belief me they are in comparison to other countries. Not that I condone discrimination, but I wish Kiwi’s wouldn’t flog themselves publicly about it. Every country, race experiences these behaviors and some are worse and some are at least trying to create a more accepting environment. This takes decades, Rom was not build in a day. NZ is doing it’s best in that area and I can reassure you of that. Read my Name.

    • Adele 8.1
      16 April 2012 at 8:30 pm

      Foreign Waka

      Tokenistic gestures suck too. Your avatar might say ‘waka’ but you still sound very much like a guy off a ‘boat.’ Aotearoa has been afflicted by racism since the first ‘boats’ arrived.

      You’d think that a sophisticated and civilised culture would take much less time than 200 years to end its racist attitude towards Māori and other non-white peoples.

      Kiwis are short-sighted – especially when it comes to their own racism.

      • vto 8.1.1
        16 April 2012 at 8:51 pm

        “Aotearoa has been afflicted by racism since the first ‘boats’ arrived.”

        Adele, I would like to know what it is called when one group of people discriminate against another group of people of the same race, and the result is the same (e.g. mere to the head, children dragged through the water until drowned, etc.) and how that is different from today’s understanding of ‘racism’.

        • marty mars 8.1.1.1
          16 April 2012 at 9:12 pm

          You are very seethrough vto

          • vto 8.1.1.1.1
            16 April 2012 at 9:13 pm

            why do you never answer the point and instead make it instantly and solely personal?

            • marty mars 8.1.1.1.1.1
              16 April 2012 at 9:48 pm

              You haven’t got to your point yet but the

              children dragged through the water until drowned

              sorta signposts it.

              • vto …
                16 April 2012 at 10:00 pm

                wrong and boring.

                Try answering it. Go on. What is it called and how is it different?

                Because Adele states that until the ‘boats’ (white boats I assume she means) arrived there was no such thing as racism. Well, woop-de-doo what a useless statement – how many races were in NZ before the first whitey boats arrived Marty? Of course there was no racism – there was only one race. But was human behaviour any better, as Adele claims? I have asked this question countless times in many threads and you Marty Mars keep ignoring it.

                My point addresses the issue of outrageous prejudiced human behaviour, of which racism is one. An equal one. Did it not exist, that sort of deadly prejudiced behaviour, before the whitey arrived Marty? Did it? Or not? Answer it you piece of chicken shit. Your continued personal attacks and lack of substance paint your own see-throughness.

                • Hateatea …
                  16 April 2012 at 10:15 pm

                  vto, whatever practices that you disapprove of that were perpetrated prior to the coming of tauiwi, none of them were racism, which is the topic of this post.
                   
                  You seem to be very focussed on the purported ‘misdeeds’ of iwi versus iwi, hapū versus hapū and whanau versus whanau in the pre_Christian era. Perhaps this is a debate we might have in a more appropriate venue, such as Marty’s own blog. I feel that our continued insinuation and sniping is off putting, but then, perhaps I am just a tender little putiputi

                • marty mars …
                  16 April 2012 at 11:46 pm

                  Answer it you piece of chicken shit.

                  Oh dear touched a wee nerve did i – so sorry.

                  Is it so easy to look back and judge that time and place without the slightest inkling of anything about the worldview of the people? Nothwithstanding that i think all peoples have attitudes and behaviours, that in our world we now consider rightly unacceptable. Even by human standards of decency many peoples have committed disgusting acts upon their neighbours and communities – the fuckers are still doing it now. How we can live in a world where it still happens is beyond me.

                  So I hope that answers your question and you stop the idiotic abuse. We both know you feel that someone has assumed a moral highground and that rankles you. Why let it? We all have different views – that’s a good thing. You seem to have a rigid position, fair enough, so do others with opposing views. So often it just becomes circular and futile, I mean you’ve said often enough that nobody has offered anything to change your mind.

                  • vto …
                    17 April 2012 at 7:57 am

                    Good. At last an acknowledgement. Because Adele above and you recently do place maori on some faux moral high ground at times and it does rankle. What the fuck do you expect? You refer to the bulk of my ancestry, people who live today and people who I knew who knew the old people. It is as personal to me as the racism issue is today to you and your ancestry.

                    Get it?

                    end

                    • marty mars …
                      17 April 2012 at 12:58 pm

                      You are just like pete – it’s all about you.

                    • vto …
                      17 April 2012 at 1:07 pm

                      Good on you marty, keep at it.

                    • Adele …
                      17 April 2012 at 7:27 pm

                      Tēnā koe, vto

                      What ever higher moral ground I occupy it is not faux. Basically your people fucked over my people when they dis-honoured Te Tiriti o Waitangi. Your people have turned my people into second class citizens on their own whenua. My people are home. Your people can go home.

                      Nothing I ever do will reduce me or mine to you and yours in terms of morality.

                    • vto …
                      17 April 2012 at 7:50 pm

                      Good evening Adele.

                      If you believe what you have written above then you are truly ignorant about the human condition and its consistency across all peoples.

                      Even marty mars acknowledged this consistency across peoples. Why can you not? Do you truly believe that your people have never acted in a similar manner? We finally abolished slavery for just one example, did your people? And how do you claim you are home and I am not when your people only arrived a dot in time before my people? Why don’t you go home too and leave these lands in peace? And how do you even know whether I am one of your people too? Does that count for nothing? How much would that count for in your mind? Does first in first served really exist as an honourable and sustainable way of living with your fellow manwoman? And what of the question I posed to your initial comment? Does that just get ignored so you can let loose your next unrelated cannon?

                      If your post above truly reflects your opinions and outlooks then it is a terrible day and I foresee only trouble. Fortunately however your outlook is not applicable to the great swathe of humanity imo and we will continue four steps forward and three steps back rather than walk blindly into a blinkered sinkhole.

                      Shame on you.

                    • Adele …
                      18 April 2012 at 7:02 am

                      vto

                      In times like this I would rather have a conversation with your penis. When it was not aroused it made more sense. The only person ignorant in this discussion is you.

                      Your fixation on the less appetising aspects of Māori society simply speaks to your prejudices. Not every Māori killed and not every Māori ate human flesh. Acts of War were highly ritualised affairs – and the subsequent deaths could most often be counted on one hand. It’s relatively difficult to kill large numbers of the enemy using mere, taiaha, and tewhatewha – weapons used in hand to hand combat. The introduction of the musket into the warfare of Māori changed the dynamic profoundly such that an estimated 30,000 Māori were killed during the musket wars.

                      I whakapapa to six Iwi. My tūpuna from Ngāti Awa was at the slaying of the missionary Volkner (the guy whose eyes were subsequently eaten by Kereopa). He and many others were rounded up and incarcerated at Mount Eden. Because of his age at the time my tūpuna was spared and the others were hanged. Mokomoko was one of those hanged and in 1993 the government apologised to Whakatohea for hanging an innocent man. He was officially pardoned in 2011. I should also mention that Ngāti Awa and Whakatohea both lost all of their lands because of this and other incidences. I whakapapa to both Iwi.

                      My tūpuna from Ngāti Rangitihi was slain in the battle of Pukekaikahu, 1814 by Tuhoe and his head was subsequently used as a decorative ornament at Rua-tahuna. Peace was eventually restored between the warring Iwi through the efforts of the son of my tūpuna, Moko-nui-ā-rangi. I should say at this point that I whakapapa to both Iwi.

                      My Tūhourangi tūpuna were slaughtered by Ngā Puhi in 1823 on Mokoia Island in retaliation for the killing of Ngā Puhi by Tūhourangi sometime previously. I do not whakapapa to Ngā Puhi but I have mates that are Ngā Puhi and I support Hone Harawira.

                      The slavery as practised by Māori had an entirely different character than the slavery as practised by Pākehā on the African and the Polynesian. And Pākehā continued to enjoy the fruits of slavery in this country until the practise ended sometime in the 1880s.

                      I could go on but none of this detail is actually of interest to you as your purpose is to solely diminish the mana of Māori relative to your own sense of worth in some feeble attempt to lessen the burden of shame that your people continue to carry in not honouring a Treaty that was written by Pākehā for Pākehā to exist peaceably in this country.

                      The morality underpinning the Treaty is not our morality. The principles espoused to give practical effect to the articles of the Treaty were developed by the Pākehā law courts – Māori had no say in the matter. You would think in the circumstances that Pākehā could at least honour the morality that Pākehā established for themselves.

                      Until you claim your whakapapa – you are just another baldhead with a redneck. If you are a representative of an honourable and sustainable way of living – it brings into context as to why this country is fucked.

                    • vto …
                      18 April 2012 at 7:32 am

                      Oh dear… ” none of this detail is actually of interest to you as your purpose is to solely diminish the mana of Māori ”

                      It is nothing of the sort and it is your own view angle which leads you to that opinion. My purpose with these threads is to open out the entire gambit of human frailties and view them objectively and across long timeframes and many peoples. It helps in gaining an understanding of the human condition and points directly to ways to move forward. Your entire view is clearly, from these posts, framed within the context of the problems with te tiriti only. That is but a quick snapshot and of little use on its own in understanding humanity.

                      I stand by my posts and thanks for referring to my penis yet again. Nice habit of yours.

              • vto …
                16 April 2012 at 10:10 pm

                Too late – time for sleep and drams.

                Hasta manana

            • Hateatea 8.1.1.1.1.2
              16 April 2012 at 9:57 pm

              Perhaps because you posed the question to Adele? Just a guess 🙂

        • QoT 8.1.1.2
          16 April 2012 at 10:47 pm

          Because I just love engaging with you to see how long it takes you to go full-on trololol, vto:

          Because “today’s understanding of racism” (sorry, I forgot the scare quotes) have a basic comprehension of power dynamics.

          Look, even Urban Dictionary, that bastion of modern intellectual discourse, has heard about it.

      • Foreign Waka 8.1.2
        17 April 2012 at 6:28 pm

        Adele, I am absolutely not referring to any race, creed or religion but may point out that no one has the high ground on that issue. Any discrimination based on “otherness” is just plain wrong. There are examples in the history of all cultures that makes one’s blood curl. Yes, we have to acknowledge that the human race needs a lot of persuasion to show compassion instead of cruelty to anyone really. You say that I sound like a guy off a boat. Well, being foreign in terms of where I was born is one thing but being made to FEEL foreign, especially with remarks like yours – that is racism. Your basically have already build an opinion about me (I don’t take this personally) by association. As to the sophistication of any society, I am sorry but I would say that will have to do with many things but none of these are based on race. I have friends from other parts of the planet (please note, plural) who were REALLY suffering – and I mean in every sense of the word – because of their heritage. Yes, there are NZlaenders who will express their preference of a particular race, but on a whole it is benign.I have actually seen the opposite, where white people were discriminated against. Which was very surprising given the constant news stories.

  9. Pete George 9
    16 April 2012 at 7:18 pm

    A couple of recent posts on this, one on a rascist attack in Dunedin at Easter.

    This was balanced by Survey shows improved attitude towards Asians.

    There may be more blatant rascisim, but it’s from only a minority of then population.

    The Asians who were the victims of the rascist attack were unfortunate to have been an opportune target for a bunch of drunken thugs who may well have have been as likely to pick on any differentiating feature of what looked like a defenceless person or group.

    Racism is just one excuse for the obnoxious and vicious.

    • Hateatea 9.1
      16 April 2012 at 7:29 pm

      ‘Racism is just one excuse for the obnoxious and vicious.’
       
      absolutely no reassurance for those who were the victims that they were just targeted by drunken thugs, or the obnoxious and vicious.
       
      Only those who have never been the victims of ongoing racism could be so blasē. Among other effects is that on the self esteem.

      • Pete George 9.1.1
        16 April 2012 at 7:33 pm

        I haven’t been the victim of ongoing racism, but I have been physically attacked, and I’ve also been the victim of ongoing abuse, some of it vicious.

        It’s not just racism, it can be geographical, political, based on age, religion – there are many excuses that some people use to be thugs.

        • coolas 9.1.1.1
          16 April 2012 at 8:12 pm

          Racism isn’t about thuggery. It’s about symbols and stereo-typing. And you’ve just displayed your ignorance which is the core of all prejudice.

          • Foreigh Waka 9.1.1.1.1
            17 April 2012 at 7:49 pm

            Racism is about fear. Fear of the other, fear of loss of identity, fear of loss of property, fear of being seen without “worth” etc., all of those fears that are based in insecurities about one self. Everybody has those fears, everybody deals differently with them when confronted with situations. No one can be sure how they will react but nice words will not cut it.

        • Hateatea 9.1.1.2
          16 April 2012 at 8:17 pm

          Only a middle aged straight white healthy male would think that his occasional bad experiences in life are the equivalent of ongoing covert and overt racism.
           
          You would not enjoy the way my young nephews and nieces experience living in non-racist Aotearoa

          • Kotahi Tane Huna 9.1.1.2.1
            16 April 2012 at 8:40 pm

            Sad but true – if my experiences with my “own kind” are anything to go by.

          • Pete George 9.1.1.2.2
            16 April 2012 at 8:56 pm

            You’re presuming a lot when you have no idea what I’ve experienced.

            But I’m sure there are buck toothed, big nosed, pimply, four-eyed, fat, short, sandwich short of a picnic, ginger headed, left handed catholic whites who have suffered more than me and you – inflicted by their own race.

            Don’t fool yourself that your sort of racism is the only prejudice that is used to attack people with.

            • marty mars 9.1.1.2.2.1
              16 April 2012 at 9:41 pm

              Jeepers pete that’s a bit rough – I thought you said you were on the net to learn – you should listen instead of making it all about you. I wouldn’t expect you to have any idea of how some people are treated, although you seem to have created some schoolbullying insult list and compared it to the systemic, sustained abuse that is racism. You know when threads discus areas I don’t know about, I listen and try to learn what that group are saying , in their words. It’s actually more interesting than listening to our own voices all the time – that’s a bit boring IMO.

            • felix 9.1.1.2.2.2
              16 April 2012 at 9:58 pm

              “But I’m sure there are buck toothed, big nosed, pimply, four-eyed, fat, short, sandwich short of a picnic, ginger headed, left handed catholic whites who have suffered more than me and you – inflicted by their own race. “

              Pete that’s all well and good, but try to imagine two people each endowed with all the traits you describe. Next imagine one of them is of the dominant culture in a racist society and the other is of an ethnic minority in a racist society.

              Get it yet?

              • Pete George …
                17 April 2012 at 6:18 am

                How would you define the “dominant culture” in New Zealand?

                • felix …
                  17 April 2012 at 9:59 am

                  If you have to ask, you’ll never know.

                  • Pete George …
                    17 April 2012 at 12:45 pm

                    I don’t have to ask, I wanted to know what you thought. Here’s one view on our culture (from Wiki).

                    “The culture of New Zealand is largely inherited from British and European custom, interwoven with Maori and Polynesian tradition”?

                    That’s a bit general. There’s a vast range of cultures in Europe, even across Britain, where there’s a much more influential class system than here. There was also a cultural range in pre-European New Zealand, as there is in Polynesia.

                    There isn’t a New Zealander who won’t be a blend of cultures. Some just happen to claim one as their own dominant culture, and some try to pigeon hole others without having a clue about their culture.

                    I’m still interested to know how you would define our dominant culture.

                    • felix …
                      17 April 2012 at 2:43 pm

                      “There isn’t a New Zealander who won’t be a blend of cultures. Some just happen to claim one as their own dominant culture, and some try to pigeon hole others without having a clue about their culture.”

                      Perhaps you should first define what you think the word “culture” means. I think you’re using it to mean ethnicity or race, which are all related but none of them interchangeable.

                      Here’s a hint though: Wherever you live, if you look around and honestly can’t define what the “dominant culture” is, it’s you.

                    • Uturn …
                      17 April 2012 at 3:07 pm

                      “…Wherever you live, if you look around and honestly can’t define what the “dominant culture” is, it’s you.”

                      That’s a very good way of putting it. If a person has even a skerrick of consciousness when that happens, what happens next is the “fun” bit.

            • Vicky32 9.1.1.2.2.3
              17 April 2012 at 5:08 pm

              Don’t fool yourself that your sort of racism is the only prejudice that is used to attack people with.

              Seconded – somewhat to my shock, I mean  it’s PG!

        • fender 9.1.1.3
          16 April 2012 at 8:47 pm

          Its not good to hear that you have been physically attacked PG. That must be extremely unpleasant and destressing if unprovoked.

          I hope some of your “and I’ve also been the victim of ongoing abuse, some of it vicious” is not reference to people giving you some stick on a blog site, as you have been known to complain on other sites that you have been personally attacked by people from here. I’m not so sure that the shit you may get from people on a blog qualifies as a crime against you, unless its just mindless abuse or defamatory, but I havnt seen that here, unless you can give an example.

          • just saying 9.1.1.3.1
            16 April 2012 at 9:54 pm

            I’m not so sure that the shit you may get from people on a blog qualifies as a crime against you, unless its just mindless abuse or defamatory, but I havnt seen that here, unless you can give an example.

            And much of the criticism Petey feels so victimised by is in response to his hate speech (including racist hate speech) on this site.

            Bit like the vicious bully who complains of abuse from the system – kidnapping, forced captivity, withdrawl of freedom etc.when put in jail for his crimes. Yeah he’s the real victim here.

            • Pete George 9.1.1.3.1.1
              17 April 2012 at 6:48 am

              I don’t think I’m the one feeling victimised here.I could claim that I’m the one who’s been directly criticised because of my “race” in this thread. Very minor, but racism isn’t confined to one race. I’ve been viciously attacked online, but not here, on other blogs, and on Facebook.

              But what has happened here is a relatively mild example of how racisim/tribalism/classism can work. From when I first started commenting here I’ve been abused – and much of that was because the resident tribe seemed to jump to conclusions about about what political tribe I belonged to. Incorrectly.

              Just like conclusions have been jumped to in this thread, I doubt anyone who has tried to pigeon hole me here has any idea what race or races I have connections to.

              Racism is serious and can be very damaging, but it’s not the exclusive cloak of oppression of one race. To overcome it we have to work against it together, not keep delineating perceived differences. Dissing anyone deemed not worthy of membership of the “poor me” club is more likely to just strengthen that club.

              One of the best ways to combat racism is to prove rascists they are wrong, and you don’t do that by abusing them back.

              • happynz …
                17 April 2012 at 6:59 am

                erm…racist, racism – not rascist or rascism. This common misspelling does my head in. It looks like the Spanish verb rascar which means to scratch. Perhaps there’s a word ‘rascista’ (and if not, there should be), a person who believes fervently in scratching.

                😉

              • Te Reo Putake …
                17 April 2012 at 7:58 am

                 
                ” … and much of that was because the resident tribe seemed to jump to conclusions about about what political tribe I belonged to. Incorrectly.”
                 
                Well, let me help the resident tribe. Pete is a tory, folks. T.O.R.Y. Try to get it right in future, because when you get it wrong Pete feels like a victim. Donations can be made to 0800woeisme or check the website: petedon’tgetit.com.

              • mickysavage …
                17 April 2012 at 8:10 am

                Pete you get a serve here because of the quality of your comments not because of the color of your skin.  And not debating matters properly does not help.  

                And also your habit of hopping over to right wing blogs to seek praise for your efforts over here does not help.

                It has nothing to do with the color of your skin.  There is nothing worse than someone with privilege claiming they are repressed. 

                • Pete George …
                  17 April 2012 at 12:22 pm

                  I didn’t claim it was anything to do with colour of skin. It was jumping to conclusions about colour of my politics.

                  There is nothing worse than someone with privilege claiming they are repressed.

                  What are you referring to there? Maori (a minority of) who claim they are repressed but also claim special privilege because they are Tangata Whenua?

                  Or something else specifically?

                  • marty mars …
                    17 April 2012 at 12:53 pm

                    Maori (a minority of) who claim they are repressed but also claim special privilege because they are Tangata Whenua?

                    a minority? sounds like you have some strong evidence to back that up. And we need to see these false claims of repression – damn tricky I suspect, but way you go.

              • just saying …
                17 April 2012 at 8:25 am

                Refer excellent comment – Marty Mars 9.41pm

                Dissing anyone deemed not worthy of membership of the “poor me” club is more likely to just strengthen that club….

                So, if we won’t allow people like you to assert that you are equally oppressed and have suffered equally, without challenge……………what exactly?

              • marty mars …
                17 April 2012 at 12:37 pm

                you say,

                To overcome it we have to work against it together, not keep delineating perceived differences.

                and you have also said

                When the Chinese have taken over our economy and land, Muslims have taken over our law, and Australians have taken over our workforce, the Indians have taken over our service industry, the Pacific Islanders have taken over our rugby, and then US has taken over the rest of the world, what then?

                as i noted here http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-08042012/#comment-456609

                How do you reconcile your two statements pete. Seems like you perpetuate that which you say you oppose.

              • Vicky32 …
                17 April 2012 at 5:11 pm

                One of the best ways to combat racism is to prove rascists they are wrong, and you don’t do that by abusing them back.

                Seconded again! Whew, it’s scary…. 🙂
                (But I know that’s right from experience.)

  10. fatty 10
    16 April 2012 at 8:11 pm

    “It’s not just racism, it can be geographical, political, based on age, religion – there are many excuses that some people use to be thugs.”

    I don’t think geographical, political and age are comparable…the socio-historical influence on racism makes it incomparable to those other three.
    …religion perhaps.

  11. dave brownz 11
    16 April 2012 at 8:16 pm

    Can’t wait for the nationalisation of land so that tinpot landlords will have to work on a production line with all honest workers.
    Why don’t we pakeha colonists trade our human rights to China for its policy of land nationalisation? That way we increase the civilisation quotient in both countries. 
    Oh I forgot we already traded our human rights so we could civilise the Maori off their land. 

  12. McFlock 12
    16 April 2012 at 8:34 pm

    On the talkback thing, it pisses me off that “personalities” in the NZ media haven’t even done poorly enough to deserve the monicker “shock jock”. That’s an insult to Howard Stern, who at least has broad-range provocation. Few people are “shocked” by what they say – more pissed off that people are paid big bucks to be “racist for ratings”.
         
    Lhaws, Deaker, Veitch, Henry et al are, in my opinion, just “cock jocks”.

  13. marty mars 13
    16 April 2012 at 8:46 pm

    Great comment dave!

    • Hateatea 13.1
      16 April 2012 at 9:43 pm

      There is prejudice and there is racism. It is true that they are not mutually exclusive but I know of no recorded instance of a left handed person, for example, being denied housing simply on the basis of being left handed.
       
      Racism, in my opinion and that of many experts in the matter, is insidious and damaging to all involved, even the racist. The more we expose those who practise it and show their beliefs to be the shallow canards that they are, the sooner the majority stand up and say enough, the sooner we will become the society we like to think we already are

    • Hateatea 13.2
      16 April 2012 at 9:45 pm

      It seems you have a devoted follower, Marty 😉

  14. Psycho Milt 14
    16 April 2012 at 8:48 pm

    Are we this racist?

    Well, it would be astonishing if we weren’t, seeing as everywhere else is that racist. Much as we might like to imagine ourselves the superior of the world’s other countries, we’re not.

  15. vto 15
    16 April 2012 at 8:57 pm

    Some careful and long thought patterns would result in the realisation that racism is simply one form of generalisation.

    Generalisations have their place, and are part of the human character. Without generalisations we humans would have died out long ago … as we went to pat every cute and cuddly lion that crossed our path.

    Generalisations are also pretty well catered for, such as here http://thestandard.org.nz/new-record-set-in-ironic-racism/ Sometimes the angle of the view is difficult to ascertain and completely ironic.

    Generalisations can be both good and bad. The racism form of today clearly describes the bad form – as can be seen in some of the anecdotes above. But the jury is out on whether races discriminating on the basis of race is entirely bad… Certainly it is bad so far, but I just wonder if that is because the entire world has in only the last couple hundred years or so come together like a whole bunch of rat tribes who never even knew each other existed – and that given a couple more hundred years we may just end up learning to live with each others smells.

    Now for the crucifixion…

    • Hateatea 15.1
      16 April 2012 at 9:50 pm

      Gee, vto, a crucifixion? Really? I haven’t heard of one of those on The Standard but I suppose you might be the first 😉

      • vto 15.1.1
        16 April 2012 at 10:03 pm

        ha ha, wouldn’t surprise me. I don’t seek these things, but I do seek answers and they require unpalateable questions at times. It can be difficult to ask the questions in the right way without getting offside first, but I do try…

    • Kotahi Tane Huna 15.2
      16 April 2012 at 10:08 pm

      vto you are right that racism is a form of generalisation, but I think you are missing the point.

      Generalisations about members of the dominant culture do not affect their education, employment, or accommodation prospects. They are not less likely to be wealthy as a result of said generalisations. Et cetera.

      • vto 15.2.1
        16 April 2012 at 10:13 pm

        I understand that KTH. The issue within our current society as you describe is certainly a terrible situation. I am looking at it from the wider lens.. It’s just what I like to do – see where current situations sit within the human history and character. For me this helps to understand where it has come from, its use, and where it may lead to.

    • fatty 15.3
      16 April 2012 at 10:17 pm

      Racism is not simply words, generalisations, physical attacks etc.
      Racism is a form of power, the same way physical violence is a form of power.
      If someone from a racial minority verbally abused me about being white it would be similar to a weak old granny punching me in the face…I would laugh and have an amusing story to tell.

      If I verbally abuse someone of a racial minority in the form of a racial remark then it is an act of violence…just the same if I punch a weak granny in the face.

      Words and actions are not the issue…it is the power one holds before the action occurs that defines if it is racism (violence) or not.

    • QoT 15.4
      16 April 2012 at 10:52 pm

      Hey, vto, I mean this in all sincerity: you might need to get a specialist to look at the big chip on your shoulder relating to ladies who say fuck a lot and can notice when a bunch of well-off whiteys are letting their racist asses show.

      • vto 15.4.1
        17 April 2012 at 8:05 am

        Post something worth reading QoT. I count 4 posts by you here. 3 are smart-arse one-liners and 1 references time in a student flat.

        Just like your thread a week or so ago they are weak and empty, which was pointed out to you at the time.

        And why do you always refer to my gender? I don’t see that it has been raised by me anywhere at all in recent times… It seems you let your obsessions get away on you.

        • QoT 15.4.1.1
          17 April 2012 at 6:43 pm

          I didn’t refer to your gender, vto. I made a pretty obvious point about the fact that when a man and a woman are both sweary bastards, the woman will inherently face a different type of criticism because Western society is much more okay with men who say fuck.

          And since you’re not a moderator here, you can kindly go fuck yourself with passing judgement on my comments. God forbid I, a person constantly accused of Taking Things Too Seriously and Looking For Things To Be Offended By, might lightheartedly participate in a mass comment-conversation. But it’s nice to know you’re keeping track of me.

          • vto 15.4.1.1.1
            17 April 2012 at 7:18 pm

            ha ha ha, you’re out of control.

            You just carry on enjoying your men women comments ’cause they aint been nowt to do with me since I can’t even remember the last time I commented on men women issues. Weeks and weeks and weeks ago must be. Obviously a preoccupation of yours so all the best with it.

            And if you cannot handle someone commenting on the quality of your comments then what on earth are you doing mooching around here like some sullen teenager?

            • QoT 15.4.1.1.1.1
              17 April 2012 at 7:43 pm

              … it’s fucking adorable how the pieces of other people’s comments which are inconvenient to your argument just don’t make it from your eyes to your brain. And how as one of the most prolifically pointless thread-derailers on this blog, you want to accuse others of “mooching around”.

              • vto …
                17 April 2012 at 8:03 pm

                You know QoT, you actually come across sometimes as quite adorable yourself. God knows how, but you do.

  16. Puddleglum 16
    16 April 2012 at 10:14 pm

    Are we this racist?

    I’ve deduced from two recent incidents that there must be extensive racism – and complicity with racist talk and attitudes – in New Zealand. Apologies ahead if they offend, but I think they’re important to relate.

    The first incident was when I was having a coffee one morning in a cafe that I regularly go to. That morning the local paper had a photo of Tame Iti on the front after the court case concluded. The woman who served me (who I know well) and then collected my empty coffee cup saw the paper and took the time to press her finger on Iti’s image and say “Don’t you wish you had a bullet?”.
    What struck me was that the venom was more what I would have associated with a response to the photo of some sadistic, murderous paedophile rather than someone on firearms charges. Also, it was clear that she expected me to agree. That says something, I think, about the social world she normally expresses herself in.

    The second incident was closer to home. We were visiting my mother-in-law and she said she had this really good joke to tell us. In brief, it involved a fire in an apartment block in Australia. The Chief Fire Officer was interviewed afterwards and he described the tenants on each floor. The first five or six floors were occupied by multiple families of – in turn (though I don’t recall the exact order) – aborigines; maori; muslim immigrants; ‘boat people’, etc..

    They all died, the Officer quietly intoned.

    The top floor (interestingly it was the top floor) was occupied by a white couple (also interestingly, not multiple families). The Chief Fire Officer said that they survived. The startled interviewer asked how they survived. The answer? “They were at work.”

    We weren’t impressed and told her so. She insisted it was funny. Apparently, everyone else she’d sent it to (it was via email) or told it to had “really laughed because it IS really funny” she said. It was an uncomfortable moment.

    My wife’s family has been in New Zealand for over five generations on each side. They’re from the lower half of the South Island, and, until recently, most of them lived in provincial centres and smaller, rural areas, which might be relevant (but I suspect these attitudes aren’t confined to such places). At family gatherings it is not unusual for my wife’s uncles and aunts to make casually racist comments with the full expectation that they will be roundly agreed with, and certainly not challenged.

    I remember when I first realised the presence of this racism in my wife’s extended family. I felt quite confused because, otherwise, they came across as perfectly good and reasonable people – quintessential ‘ordinary kiwis’, in fact.

    • Hateatea 16.1
      16 April 2012 at 10:23 pm

      And that is the world I grew up in, Puddleglum. A scary insight into provincial New Zealand thought processes, isn’t it?

    • Kotahi Tane Huna 16.2
      16 April 2012 at 10:42 pm

      Pretty much precisely reflects my experiences Puddleglum – I’m sorry to say.

    • vto 16.3
      17 April 2012 at 8:11 am

      Agree 100% Mr Puddle. I suspect that some of that is starting to ease however – there is considerably less agreement when these sentiments are expressed today when compared to mumble years ago imo. In fact, most times when that happens now there is often considerable disquiet and little or no agreement. The raising of the problem and the constant diligence in resisting it seems to be having a relative impact.

    • prism 16.4
      17 April 2012 at 9:13 am

      I think that humans in general like to have someone to look down on and make jokes about. The targets shift depending on the person and their personal culture. The extreme is when you can count on a crowd to show up with rocks to throw at someone who has been judged as being a bad or law-breaking person. Or enjoying hangings etc.

      Perhaps there could be an official scapegoat announced each year to give the regular ones a break. Race, gays, women, mother in laws, the unemployed, people on benefits, the different – speak funny, look funny (both queer and haha), union members etc could be replaced by pointed stories about violent men, rapacious women with serial marriages (and half the partner’s lifetime earnings after three years), or rapacious men?, shooters in unauthorised areas who whine that they didn’t mean to kill someone who was just enjoying being outdoors, rugby players who do spear tackles, eye gouging, etc., seconds-slicers overtaking on blind corners because they’ve done it before and not been killed and they want a fast beer.

      There are just so many good subjects going begging for derision by real people who look outside their tent.

  17. Benjamin B. 17
    16 April 2012 at 10:29 pm

    News at 6.

    How come everyone’s so surprised? Around here, walk the streets and everyone’s friendly; give em a chance to get away with it and 80% are vicious, racist, what not.

    Immigration dept, landlords, anonymous commenters — yes it’s all of you that I’m talking about.

  18. kiwi_prometheus 18
    17 April 2012 at 2:28 am

    All the examples so far have been ‘white on other’ racism.

    Here’s a couple off the top of my head that are different.

    A wealthy cultured host with a Hong Kong Chinese background telling us that USA immigration/airport staff were jerks post 9 11, [quote]especially the black ones![/quote]. Wow! the restaurant table went deathly quiet, lol. I turned to the rich white guy next to me who had just been complaining about “PC gone mad in NZ” and said “That comment wasn’t very PC was it?”. “No it wasn’t” he replied tersely while staring closely at his soup.

    I got trapped on a flight with one of the South Auckland ‘bros’ next to me telling racist jokes about Asians when he learned I was heading to the Far East for work.

    I’ve worked in a couple of East Asian countries for a few years, they are homogenous insular societies and very racist, especially against brown/black skinned people. They bring these attitudes with them when they immigrate to NZ.

    • felix 18.1
      17 April 2012 at 10:14 am

      “I’ve worked in a couple of East Asian countries for a few years, they are homogenous insular societies and very racist, especially against brown/black skinned people. “

      Forget the skin colour, what you describe is the racism of a dominant culture toward a minority one. That’s not so different to the situation here.

      • Gosman 18.1.1
        17 April 2012 at 10:53 am

        What’s the definition of a ‘dominant culture’?

        If a Maori acts in a discriminating manner against a person of Chinese descent are they doing so from a position of dominance?

        • felix 18.1.1.1
          17 April 2012 at 10:56 am

          Those are two different questions. The first you can find out for yourself easily enough.

          The second is unrelated to my reply to kiwi_prometheus.

          • Gosman 18.1.1.1.1
            17 April 2012 at 11:02 am

            The trouble is you are seemingly stuck in this weird academic view of racism where power dynamics affects the definition of prejudice. A dominant culture only impacts racism if that culture makes a conscious decision to discrimate based on race, (e.g. Apartheid South Africa). This only effects the impact of racist thinking not the intent of an individual.

            • tracey 18.1.1.1.1.1
              17 April 2012 at 2:32 pm

              Hi

              I’m not quite following your point. Are you saying unless it is actually legislated (racism) it isn’t being perpetuated culturally?

              • Gosman …
                17 April 2012 at 4:19 pm

                Nope. There are many ways that Racists ideas can be perpetuated culturally other than via legislation. Religion being one.

            • felix 18.1.1.1.1.2
              17 April 2012 at 2:33 pm

              “The trouble is you are seemingly stuck in this weird academic view of racism where power dynamics affects the definition of prejudice.”

              Nope. Prejudice is prejudice. Not affected by power dynamics.

            • Hateatea 18.1.1.1.1.3
              17 April 2012 at 3:34 pm

              Gosman, legislated racism is an extreme but valid example. Racism that is condoned by silence is what we have been discussing here, unless I have totally missed the point.
               
              The South African and southern United States examples that existed in my childhood had their echoes in NZ when people were allowed to put up signage saying ‘No ….. will be served’ etc (usually Māori but also Chinese, back in the day). Now we have legislation that explicitly prohibits such discrimination, we have a number of people who try to find ways to circumvent the legislation with unspoken or sotto voce support from others as well as the usual nut jobs exercising their right to ‘free speech’ while making sweeping, discriminatory, sometimes hate filled attacks on people of ‘colour’ including Māori, Asians, Pacifica, Africans etc.
               
              Of course, there may be religious intolerances layered on that just to further complicate the situation. None of it is acceptable to the majority of fair minded people but the daily battering perpetrated by some of the MSM does not help.
               
              As for some of us here speaking to the racism against Māori- the answer from my viewpoint is simple. I, my friends, family and community hear daily the slurs of Ngāti Kakīwhero who spew their prejudice without thought to the foundation of this country. We ARE Tāngata Whenua, all others, whether 6th generation or 1st, are Tāngata Tiriti, that is, you or your ancestors came here by invitation based on the treaty relationship. When you disrespect us based on our skin colour, traditional practices, l rs who extended a welcome then became marginalised in their own home.
               
              It may have happened over the past 170 plus years but the effects linger and the pain is still felt. When you judge my child, grandchildren, nieces, nephews and whanaunga purely on ethnicity, you are a racist but more than that, you are ignorant of the history of this country and how it came to be. Sadly, lack of historical knowledge seems to be endemic

              • Gosman …
                17 April 2012 at 4:06 pm

                I think you are mixing up a few things there.

                If I disrespect and denigrate you based on your race then I am a racist.

                If I disagree with point out flaws in your culture that is not racist.

                It would be like arguing that female non-white anti-capitalists atheists are racist (and sexist), against White Anglo-Saxon Protestants if they point out flaws in what they regard at the patriarchial capitalist system they are living in.

        • Fortran 18.1.1.2
          17 April 2012 at 1:46 pm

          Gos

          You should ask Hone Harawira aka John Hadfield – he knows best.

          • Hateatea 18.1.1.2.1
            17 April 2012 at 3:38 pm

            I have never known the Harawira whanau to be known as Hadfield in my lifetime. Likewise, I am unaware of Hone being called John by anyone other than a racist.
             
            If the cap fits …..   😉

    • Vicky32 18.2
      17 April 2012 at 5:20 pm

      A wealthy cultured host with a Hong Kong Chinese background telling us that USA immigration/airport staff were jerks post 9 11, [quote]especially the black ones![/quote]. Wow!

      Wow indeed! Did it cross your mind that he might have been perfectly right? If the oppressed (black minimum wage workers) get the opportunity to be oppressors, they’re going to take the fullest advantage, aren’t they? It’s human nature.
      People of colour are people, not plaster saints, sorry QoT and Marty …

      • QoT 18.2.1
        17 April 2012 at 7:45 pm

        Your penchant for bringing me up in comment threads I haven’t participated in is a fascinating case study, Vicky.

        If Marty or I had ever said, anywhere, that people of colour universally can’t be racist, you might have a point. But that would be unusual for you.

  19. North 19
    17 April 2012 at 5:55 am

    Pakeha talking to Pakeha (both by all appearances “nice”, “normal” people):

    “He’s a Meowry but he’s a lovely fellow…..”

    Just rolling off the tongue…..the “but” not even emphasised.

    The Tame Iti /bullet anecdote above betrays a strident KKKness alive and well in NZ, just itching to go hard when the person harbouring it is fearful or angry.

    And that’s in “nice”, “normal” people.

    Tune in to sports radio and other talkback to see KKKness not dependent on fear or anger for its exposure.

  20. muzza 20
    17 April 2012 at 7:50 am

    I know many people from various asian countries, and they have one thing in common when it comes to other nations…The share a dislike for the same nationalities, so I guess that makes some asians racist too. Some of them say that whitey smells strange, and that they find ‘kiwi” culture primitive…

    This is not a Kiwi problem, this is the world as it was, and still is. Migration, immigration etc have done many great things to expose us all to other cultures, the good and the bad, but it as also pushed cultures together in a relatively short period of time, and this is always going to have repercussions in the so called “race space”.

    All people need to remember that we are basically the same, and practice tolerance, and accept that all human beings share greatness…

    Letting petty ignorance, and in some cases it might be flat out racism, regardless which colours of people are involved, should not be tolerated. Governments and the media have played a major part in ensuring that there is a continuation of it, and also make sure that predjudice keeps itself in the picture, with constant class wars, benefishiary bashing, workers v students, WFF v those who don’t get it, the list goes on and on….The aim is to constantly confuse issues and muddy the waters..

    Bottom line, the system is happy to have society at eachother in as many ways as possible, and it is up to people to realise this and not buy into it..

  21. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 21
    17 April 2012 at 8:05 am

    I suppose this arose out of the Fijian Indian landlord who advertised on Trade Me for “European” tenants.

    Margaret Mutu would say that, as he is not part of the dominant culture, it is impossible for him to be racist (and if you think he is, you are the racist).

    • felix 21.1
      17 April 2012 at 10:17 am

      So who is holding the power in that situation?

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 21.1.1
        17 April 2012 at 10:26 am

        Racist.

        • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 21.1.1.1
          17 April 2012 at 1:43 pm

          You consider that the landlord is in a position of power in that situation?

          If so, if the Fijian Indian landlord offered the flat to a European tenant who refused it on the grounds that he did not want a Fijian Indian landlord, would the potential tenant be racist? Or not, because he has no power?

          • felix 21.1.1.1.1
            17 April 2012 at 2:35 pm

            You tell me, it’s your example. The bit you seem to be stuck on is the skin colour.

            • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 21.1.1.1.1.1
              17 April 2012 at 2:55 pm

              They’re both racist. But I don’t have to worry about that “power” bullshit. I am genuinely interested how you unravel that using your tortuous definition.

              The bit you seem to be stuck on is the skin colour.

              If you are trying to determine whether someone is racist, surely skin colour is not irrelevant.

              • felix …
                17 April 2012 at 3:11 pm

                I’m sorry, but power dynamics aren’t simple enough that I can give you a catch-all answer that applies to every Indian, every Maori, every landlord, every employer, every customer, every shopkeeper, every pakeha etc etc.

                It’s your example, you figure it out. I know nothing about these people.

                • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …
                  17 April 2012 at 3:13 pm

                  I have my answer. They are both racists. I wanted yours.

                  But if you don’t want to play, that’s fine.

                  • felix …
                    17 April 2012 at 3:18 pm

                    Sorry, didn’t know we were playing. I thought you wanted a straight answer so I gave you one.

                    Perhaps I could ask you about the guy up the road from me – is he a bastard?

                    • Gosman …
                      17 April 2012 at 3:35 pm

                      Where was your straight answer? All I saw was you trying to avoid addressing the very pertinent point that was made.

                    • Gosman …
                      17 April 2012 at 3:42 pm

                      Where’s the straight answer to a simple question?

                      All I see there is you trying to claim the situation is complex. It certainly isn’t in scenario you were given.

                    • felix …
                      17 April 2012 at 3:43 pm

                      Perhaps you could answer my question then Gos.

                    • Gosman …
                      17 April 2012 at 3:46 pm

                      It is far too complex for me to ascertain the answer to your question without knowing the power dynamics involved in the interaction.

                      See two can give meaningless non straight forward answers
                      😉

                    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …
                      17 April 2012 at 4:08 pm

                      Your neighbour, was he conceived while his parents were in a union recognised by God and the law?

                    • felix …
                      17 April 2012 at 4:13 pm

                      Actually it’s not that complex Gos, I just haven’t given you enough information to expect a meaningful answer.

                    • Gosman …
                      17 April 2012 at 4:24 pm

                      But that is irrelevant to whether you can answer Gormless’s question because all the elements for making a decision were there.

                      Your so called straight forward answer was in fact an attempt by you to avoid doing so by trying to claim it was far too complex for an answer.

                      As I pointed out that sort of BS logic could be used against any question.

                      What is 1+1 ? Well it is far too complex to answer as you first need to know what sort of number each 1 is and what you mean by +.

                      I think many rational people, (so perhaps not you then), would agree answering a question like that would not qualify as straight forward.

                    • felix …
                      17 April 2012 at 4:36 pm

                      Not at all Gos, I have no idea of the power dynamics in the relationship Ole made up.

                      You might like making half-cocked pre-judgements from a position of ignorance but I’ll keep right out of that one, thanks.

                    • Gosman …
                      17 April 2012 at 4:45 pm

                      You don’t need to know the power relationship to understand if something is racist or not. That is the whole point. Your whole thinking is f#cked up on this matter..

                    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …
                      17 April 2012 at 4:49 pm

                      Alright then, Felix, what other information do you require to answer my simple question?

                    • felix …
                      17 April 2012 at 4:53 pm

                      Don’t tear your hair out Gos, it’s just a word you don’t understand. Look it up, learn what it means, and move on. Sheesh man.

                    • Puddleglum …
                      17 April 2012 at 9:54 pm

                      Racism is always about power.

                      When it comes to defining and politically identifying racism, I have no idea why right-wingers get so fixated on the level of individual behaviour. So many people seem to be unable or unwilling to think at levels above and beyond that of individual decisions and behaviour. It’s a trivial level in comparison to the other levels – group, social, cultural, political/legal – in terms of its impact.

                      As I said, racism always involves power: Attempts to exert existing power; attempts to gain (some) power; expressions of assumed power.

                      All individuals can, and may, use racism to advance their interests. But, a racism that comes from a political prisoner decrying the ethnicity of his or her captors is a world away, in terms of impacts on the other, as a dictator extolling the superiority of his or her race or denigrating the supposed qualities of another race. 

                      Yes, we should all be Gandhi-like in our universal respect for each other but, back in the messy world of actuality, racism works its most heinous effects when it is supported at all levels of human being – individual, group, social, cultural, political/legal.

                      By far the most concerning racist expressions are those that align with those ‘upper level’ powerful forces and which, therefore, are legitimated by them. The reason they are – or should be – most concerning is that they are the expressions most capable of doing real damage.

                      Getting all hot under the collar at all expressions of racism solely at the level of the individual exposes, I’m afraid, a motive to justify the most heinous expressions. It does so by attempting to assert some definition that, in essence, claims a moral equivalence between the expressions of individuals completely unsupported by those powerful upper levels and those completely supported by them.

                      There is a world of difference between insulting members of a ‘race’ that clearly has all the cards in its hands and insulting members of a ‘race’ that has no cards in its hand.

                      It is also absolutely no revelation that all individuals have the cognitive, emotional and motivational capacities to speak and act in a racist manner. So what? 

                      All individuals are also capable of lying. But isn’t it far more concerning when the opportunity for lying can cause the greatest damage in a society (e.g., when a senior politician or businessperson lies)? If a dictator lies there’s rather greater consequences than if a peasant lies. We should therefore be especially vigilant over the former case.

                      Also, your claim that a European tenant ‘has no power’ is incorrect. Socially, culturally and probably politically, that tenant is being supported by rather a lot of the institutions in modern New Zealand and so has quite significant power in comparison to the Fijian=Indian landlord (who, if they complained, may well be exposing themselves to the backlash from that support).

                      BTW, notice that the Fiji-Indian landlord was advertising for ‘Europeans’.  I wonder what the poll results would have been like if only ‘people of colour’ were welcome?

      • Foreign Waka 21.1.2
        17 April 2012 at 7:03 pm

        The landlord?

      • Mehere 21.1.3
        18 April 2012 at 1:38 am

        So, as a Fijian New Zealander,  I have a license to be as racist as fuck? According to Felix’s rules it would seem so.

        Felix, did you know that Fijians are actually pretty fucking racist. I have first hand experience through my extended family. I suspect you’ve never actually met an actual Fijian. Indigenous Fijians are quite casually racist towards Indian and Chinese Fijians.

        So who is holding the power in that situation?

        Btw, as someone who knows Gosman in real life, he’s the least racist guy I know. (He’s going to hate me for saying that, it ruins his rep on this site as the next incarnation of Hitler. I’ll have to buy him a beer to make up for it.)

        • felix 21.1.3.1
          18 April 2012 at 3:11 am

          No, you don’t have a license to be racist and nothing I’ve said would imply that.

          If you’re going to make statements like “according to felix” I’d appreciate it if you based them on something I’ve said, and not on something Gosman is pretending I’ve said. He’s not very good at taking in what he reads, has trouble with set theory, doesn’t appreciate subtext, needs the bleeding obvious explained to him like a child, and is a terrible judge of character.

    • Hami Shearlie 21.2
      17 April 2012 at 10:33 am

      Yes I’m sure she would. I heard a maori woman slagging off pakehas whereupon her best friend and workmate said” But you can’t say that, it’s racist!” Her reply was, “I can’t be a racist, I’m a maori”! Racism occurs in all races. After all the landlord who sparked this controversy, only wanting white tenants, was a Fijian Indian!

      • felix 21.2.1
        17 April 2012 at 10:39 am

        “Her reply was, “I can’t be a racist, I’m a maori”! “

        That’s prejudice. If she was using a position of influence or power to enforce that prejudice, it’d be racist too.

        Either way it’s ugly though.

        • Gosman 21.2.1.1
          17 April 2012 at 10:56 am

          No, the view she expressed is both prejudice AND Racist. All power does is allow these views to have a greater impact via any action the racist person mighttake. It doesn’t make them any less racist.

      • Vicky32 21.2.2
        17 April 2012 at 5:27 pm

        Yes I’m sure she would. I heard a maori woman slagging off pakehas whereupon her best friend and workmate said” But you can’t say that, it’s racist!” Her reply was, “I can’t be a racist, I’m a maori”!

        Be careful Hami Shearlie! I believe you, but QoT will say you are a liar, that you invented that anecdote because you are the racist… That’s what he/she said to me, when I told a similar anecdote, and he/she has never forgiven me…
         

        • Hami Shearlie 21.2.2.1
          17 April 2012 at 5:55 pm

          This happened quite a few years ago. We know what we all heard and were shocked! It came out of the blue! We all walked on eggshells around her after that. It was sad really, we were all good friends before that!

        • just saying 21.2.2.2
          17 April 2012 at 6:27 pm

          link

        • QoT 21.2.2.3
          17 April 2012 at 6:46 pm

          That’s what he/she said to me, when I told a similar anecdote, and he/she has never forgiven me…

          Citation needed. If you find a good shoulderchipologist, you should recommend them to vto.

          And the only things I might “forgive” you for are your fantastically laughable attempts to “insult” me with phrases like “Remmers blonde”. The “pretending I’m not really a woman” line is a nice step up, but sadly still just screams “I’m massively insecure because someone called out my racism even though I have brown friends.”

          • Vicky32 21.2.2.3.1
            18 April 2012 at 3:09 pm

            even though I have brown friends

            They’re relatives, actually… 🙂 an ex-now-late (he died in December) husband, son and daughter in law.
            (Although as I recall, you refused to believe me about that, either.)

    • Uturn 21.3
      17 April 2012 at 10:35 am

      “…as he is not part of the dominant culture…”

      Being a landlord is part of the dominant culture. What you mean to say is that culture and race are the same thing, yes? Well, no. It would also help if you didnt take Mutu’s comments out of context, misapply them “by accident” while erroneously identifying the source as a “hero of the left” to score a pathetic forum waffle point, all to unsuccessfully hide your glee in maintaining the racism of the status quo.

  22. Gosman 22
    17 April 2012 at 8:20 am

    Yes, certain people have a screwed up view of racism being related to power in that only those in positions of power can be racist. Ridiculous view.

  23. tracey 23
    17 April 2012 at 2:36 pm

    Perhaps I am missing something, isn’t racism where anyone discriminates (that is disadvantages)another by virtue of their skin colour?

    While the impact may be more devastating when it is practised by a dominant culture I would have thought the core definition remains the same.

    So, if an asian person turns down a tenant because they are european rather than maori or asian, how is that not racism?

    I accept that in most countries whose legal system arises from the british or european empire there will have been copvert and overt racism from the very top.

    • felix 23.1
      17 April 2012 at 3:03 pm

      Yes, I think “disadvantages” is the key word here tracey. Someone can think prejudiced thoughts all day long without ever being in a position for that prejudice to affect anyone else.

      • Gosman 23.1.1
        17 April 2012 at 3:55 pm

        This is a variation of the whole ‘If a tree falls in a forest but noone is around does it make a sound?’ pop philosophy.

        You could rephase it to ‘If a racist sits around all day bitching about other races only to fellow racists but doesn’t actually interact with other races, is he an actual racist?’

        The answer is of course he is. However felix answer would be ‘It is far too complex for me to ascertain the answer to your question without knowing the power dynamics involved in the interaction.’

        • McFlock 23.1.1.1
          17 April 2012 at 4:01 pm

          First paragraph reasonable.
              
          Second paragraph bunk (you slid internal thought left unshared into reinforcing and normalising the attitudes of every participant in the hypothetical discussion).
                
          Third paragraph too shallow for words. 

          • Gosman 23.1.1.1.1
            17 April 2012 at 4:12 pm

            My point is you leftists over intellectualise something so that a simple term becomes complex and virtually meaningless.

            A person spewing forth hate against races on a subscription only website that is only accessed by members who are fellow racist but who does nothing else racist against other people is still a racist. It isn’t a difficult concept to grasp.

            This reminds me however of the discussion about the economic value of ideas. You are so stuck on some complex formula for working it out when the answer is simple.

            • McFlock 23.1.1.1.1.1
              17 April 2012 at 4:31 pm

              I agree, you could never be accused of overthinking something.

                 
              Felix’s comment was “Someone can think prejudiced thoughts all day long without ever being in a position for that prejudice to affect anyone else.”
                      
              Only  on planet Gos does a full group discussion (online or in person) constitute an unexpressed thought.
                     
              I actually agree with you – your scenario does involve racism, because it involves an expression of prejudice with an attached power to communicate and therefore persuade. Felix’s   scenario explicitly removes any power from the prejudice, therefore is not “racist”, just “dumbfuck prejudiced”.
                        
              Sometimes the distinction between a spade and a shovel is important. Most of the time the words are interchangeable in practicality, but sometimes the distinction is the subject of the discussion. Same with “prejudice” and “racism” – the conversation has morphed into a discussion of the distinction between the two.
                  
              try to keep up.
                   

              • Gosman …
                17 April 2012 at 4:42 pm

                BS McCluck.

                If I go into a sealed sound proof room and screamed racial obscenities that I believed whole heartedly in, those racist obscenities and my views are still racist.

                If I decided to not let out my house to a person of a different race I am still as racist if I decided to only rent a place to live from a person of the same race.

                • felix …
                  17 April 2012 at 4:50 pm

                  By your own personal definitions of those words, probably.

                  We don’t rely on you to define words for us though, so not really relevant.

                  • Gosman …
                    17 April 2012 at 5:51 pm

                    Not just by own definion of the word racist but by the dictionary’s as well

                    rac·ist
                      [rey-sist] Show IPA
                    noun
                    1.
                    a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others.

                    • McFlock …
                      17 April 2012 at 6:17 pm

                      “The” dictionary?? Wow! Which one?
                      Here’s mine – the Oxford English Dictionary. It’s pretty well regarded in the field.

                      OED Online:

                      racist, n. and adj.
                      Pronunciation:  Brit. /ˈreɪsɪst/ , U.S. /ˈreɪsᵻst/
                      Etymology:  < RACE n.6 + -IST suffix, perhaps after French raciste… (Show More)
                       A. n.
                      An advocate or supporter of racism; a person whose words or actions display racial prejudice or discrimination. Also in extended use: a person who is prejudiced against people of other nationalities. Cf.RACIALIST n.

                       So the primary modern use of the word “racism” involves the active expression, not just possession, of the prejudice. Your “belief” cause contraire is valid in a sense that is growing obsolescent.

                       

                    • Gosman …
                      17 April 2012 at 6:29 pm

                      Please note “Also in extended use: a person who is prejudiced against people of other nationalities” Nowhere in that is their a mention of them having to act on that. It is in fact consistent with my definition of racism being a subset of racism.

                    • McFlock …
                      17 April 2012 at 6:40 pm

                      Please note “Also in extended use: a person who is prejudiced against people of other nationalities” Nowhere in that is their a mention of them having to act on that. It is in fact consistent with my definition of racism being a subset of racism.

                      Yeah, I read that. Note the “also in extended use”. 
                      You’re an idiot. 

                • McFlock …
                  17 April 2012 at 5:16 pm

                  Gossy dearest,
                      
                  the fact that you see no fundamental difference between strictly internal and externally expressed actions leads to some interesting conclusions.
                     
                  By your logic “violence” and “anger” mean the same thing as well, because there’s no difference between feeling angry at someone and not being able to stop yourself beating seven kinds of shit out of them.
                         
                  Similar distinction here.

        • felix 23.1.1.2
          17 April 2012 at 4:19 pm

          Nah Gos, I never complained that any particular situation was too complex to analyse. I said I wasn’t going to try to provide a catch-all power analysis that would apply to every situation.

          Geddit?

          We all seem to be in agreement about prejudice btw. The only stumbling block is that you’re using words you don’t know the meanings of. Like “racism” for example.

          • Gosman 23.1.1.2.1
            17 April 2012 at 4:34 pm

            No, Racism, (as stated), is a subset of Prejudism. It is Prejudism based on race. I dislike people of a Religious bent. This is prejudism based on Religion. You might dislike people just because of the right leaning political beliefs. That is prejudism based on political views.

            • felix 23.1.1.2.1.1
              17 April 2012 at 4:46 pm

              It’s a subset of prejudice in a sense, yes. It’s the subset of prejudice which is practiced by those with the ability to disadvantage the target of their prejudice.

              • Gosman …
                17 April 2012 at 5:01 pm

                No, not just by people with the ability. You simply added that in there as part of your argument. The ability of someone to act on their racist beliefs doesn’t affect whether they are racist. Why do you keep arguing that when it makes no logical sense?

                • felix …
                  17 April 2012 at 5:12 pm

                  Nope, it’s the ability to act on racial prejudice that makes it racist.

                  • Gosman …
                    17 April 2012 at 5:47 pm

                    Wrong.

                    Let me educate you felix

                    rac·ist
                      [rey-sist] Show IPA
                    noun
                    1.
                    a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that a certain human race is superior to any or all others.

                    Please note that nowhere in that definition of racist does it mention the ability to act on their racial prejudice. It is merely the belief.

                    • McFlock …
                      17 April 2012 at 6:09 pm

                      Which dictionary did you use? Charlie Brown Word Fun 1957? The penguin Book of Big Words for Little Boys?

                      Let’s look at something current:

                      OED Online:

                      racist, n. and adj.
                      Pronunciation:  Brit. /ˈreɪsɪst/ , U.S. /ˈreɪsᵻst/
                      Etymology:  < RACE n.6 + -IST suffix, perhaps after French raciste… (Show More)
                       A. n.
                       An advocate or supporter of racism; a person whose words or actions display racial prejudice or discrimination. Also in extended use: a person who is prejudiced against people of other nationalities. Cf.RACIALIST n.

                       All active. Your “belief” definition is an afterthought in “extended use” (aka used by illiterates like you).
                       

      • tracey 23.1.2
        17 April 2012 at 4:55 pm

        agreed. I also agree that being “racist” is about how one views others. Actionable racism is where their racism infringes the laws of the land. Slave owners in America and England were racist even though their racism was legal, ergo not actionable. Didn’t make it “right”.

        • Gosman 23.1.2.1
          17 April 2012 at 4:59 pm

          Excellent, perhaps you can educate felix on the meaning as he seems to think it has to do with power dynamics in relationships.

  24. captain hook 24
    17 April 2012 at 2:53 pm

    racism is overdetermined, usually with an admixture of bullying but generally a racist is someone who says that if one person of a race does something unconscionable then all members of that race do it.
    anyway this country is full of lowbrow knuckle draggers who can only build themselves up by putting others down.

  25. Gosman 25
    17 April 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Your whole ‘Racism is related to power dynamics’ BS has been shown up by the example Gormless postulated.

    The person who refuses to purchase something from someone because that person is of a different race is as racists as the person who refuses to sell something for the same reason.

    The fact people can’t get this just serves to highlight how F#cked up leftist thinking on this issue is.

    • felix 25.1
      17 April 2012 at 4:24 pm

      Nah, what you and Ole are doing is confusing the systemic racism practiced by a dominant culture at a societal level with isolated examples of interactions between individuals of different ethnicities.

      We don’t live in a nation characterised by Indian landlords and European tenants.

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 25.1.1
        17 April 2012 at 4:28 pm

        So, people can’t be racist, only society?

        Another reason to be suspicious of it, I guess.

        • felix 25.1.1.1
          17 April 2012 at 4:33 pm

          Nope, didn’t say that either. This would be a lot easier if you guys would read the words instead of just looking at the pictures.

          • Gosman 25.1.1.1.1
            17 April 2012 at 4:37 pm

            It would be a whole lot easier if you understood what straight forward answer to a question meant rather than trying to avoid dealing with it by this BS tactic of trying to state it is far too complex to answer.

            • felix 25.1.1.1.1.1
              17 April 2012 at 4:47 pm

              I didn’t say that Gos, as explained already. You’re lying again.

              • Gosman …
                17 April 2012 at 4:54 pm

                Ummmm…..

                “I’m sorry, but power dynamics aren’t simple enough that I can give you a catch-all answer that applies to every Indian, every Maori, every landlord, every employer, every customer, every shopkeeper, every pakeha etc etc.”

                Firstly you weren’t asked to give a catch all. You were asked about a single theoretical situation where a European tennant refused to move into a place because the land lord was a Fijian Indian.

                Secondly when you state that something isn’t simple enough it is logical to assume that it is more complex. Therefore your problem is around the complexity of the situation.

                • felix …
                  17 April 2012 at 5:05 pm

                  That doesn’t mean the particular situation is too complex you egg, it means the myriad relationships and power balances between all of us are too complex for a given answer to be meaningful regarding anything but the particular hypothetical situation.

                  Jeez, why do we always have to explain everything 4 or 5 times with you Gos? It’s quite embarrassing.

                  • Gosman …
                    17 April 2012 at 5:47 pm

                    So why didn’t you answer the question then if it wasn’t too complex?

                    • QoT …
                      17 April 2012 at 6:48 pm

                      Because he could see the cunning trap you’d laid, wherein he’d say “in this specific hypothetical set of circumstances, yes/no” and you’d say SEE, SEE, I was totally right about a huge, wider, vaguer, less defined theory of racism!!!!

                      Just at a guess.

                    • Gosman …
                      17 April 2012 at 8:00 pm

                      Well it is a wrong guess because I didn’t ask him the question Gormless did.

                      It also relies on an assumption that is easily countered. He could quite easily have stated that in that particular situation it is racist but not in others.

                      Care to explain how this wouldn’t have worked?

                    • McFlock …
                      17 April 2012 at 8:09 pm

                      Care to explain how this wouldn’t have worked?
                          
                      It involves a pimply narcissist being willing and able to understand a simple concept, that’s why.

                    • Gosman …
                      17 April 2012 at 10:33 pm

                      That’s a bit harsh on felix there McChuck. However you probably know him better than I.

                    • McFlock …
                      17 April 2012 at 10:37 pm

                      by gum, that was a two-fer. You’re not descended from Oscar Wilde by any chance are you, gossy?

  26. higherstandard 26
    17 April 2012 at 4:19 pm

    There’s only two things I can’t tolerate racism and the dutch.

    Edit: and gingas – day walkers scare me shitless.

  27. captain hook 27
    17 April 2012 at 4:52 pm

    felix…dont make me fall off the floor dude.
    grossman always resorts to lying.
    its what the right are best at!
    some of these people are not exactly what I would call hom homo sapiens sapiens but more homo sapiens chainsawus.

    • Gosman 27.1
      17 April 2012 at 4:55 pm

      Where’s the lie?

      Please quote me where I have lied here.

      I very much doubt you can do this.

      • tracey 27.1.1
        17 April 2012 at 5:00 pm

        Is anyone going to suggest you have only stolen if you get caught, or only a cheat if you get caught breaking the rules?. The moral transgression exists regardless of any legal prohibition. Stealing becomes “theft” by virtue of the law but the item is nonetheless stolen or taken without permission whether the law intervenes or not. Isn’t it the same for racism?

      • felix 27.1.2
        17 April 2012 at 5:10 pm

        Gos you keep saying I’ve said a particular question was “too complex”, and I’ve explained several times that I didn’t say that.

        If you’re not lying then you genuinely didn’t understand what I wrote, and I’m giving you credit for not being quite that thick.

  28. felix 28
    17 April 2012 at 5:14 pm

    I’m off for dinner if anyone else feels like giving Gosman a slap.

    • vto 28.1
      17 April 2012 at 5:31 pm

      Fijian indian curry cooked by a whitey using a chinese stove inside a whare all powered by electricity soon to be owned by an american per chance?

      • felix 28.1.1
        17 April 2012 at 9:05 pm

        lol it was a Nth Indian curry and the stove was made in NZ, but other than that yep 😀

  29. mike e 29
    17 April 2012 at 6:08 pm

    goldman
    of
    sachs
    mad
    anal retentive
    nut job
    You are once again scraping the bottom of the barrel.

  30. Te Reo Putake 30
    17 April 2012 at 6:25 pm

    Double posting, sorry.

  32. Tiger Mountain 32
    17 April 2012 at 6:53 pm

    C’mon Gozzie, strangulated logic games impress only so far. Cry for me ‘Rabi blanco’ heh.
    We all bleed red blood, racism is just a capitalist wedge tactic these days.

  33. Balanced View 33
    17 April 2012 at 7:34 pm

    I don’t think New Zealand could be considered a racist country. I think that more often than not the term racist or racism is used incorrectly. I would suggest that less than 5% of New Zealanders are truly racist.

    • Colonial Viper 33.1
      17 April 2012 at 7:37 pm

      I agree its not racism in some parts of the country mate, its just normal.

    • QoT 33.2
      17 April 2012 at 7:48 pm

      BV, I really do enjoy finding people who want to pretend that there’s some magical line between the institutional racism which does exist throughout Western culture (let’s just start with the economic benefits of shitting on “less developed” indigenous people while we were “conquering” the West, for a start) and “true racism”, which is obvious just a terrible rare condition whose symptoms include swastika tattoos.

      Sure, it’s uncomfortable for people to consider the ingrained, normalised prejudices in their own heads, but let’s not take the easy route of claiming it’s “not that bad” or “not real racism” when we’re living in a society shaped and dependent on racial prejudice backed up with social, economic and political power.

      • Balanced View 33.2.1
        17 April 2012 at 8:14 pm

        I don’t think the picture you’ve painted truly reflects New Zealand today. I don’t think that true racism is “ingrained” in all or most of us.
        Yes there are generalisms, and some of these are prejudiced, but these generally aren’t what I’d consider to be racist.

      • Foreigh Waka 33.2.2
        17 April 2012 at 8:43 pm

        I really don’t see how you can say that institutional racism exists in the West – and by implication white people. What do you understand – or better still – know of the generalized west? What about the East? The persecution of the Kurd’s? Or the European South perhaps, the marginalization of the Basques? Far east Japan, where the Ainu were just recently “recognized” by the Government despite being indigenous.
        Racism is not based on a skin color, anyone can be a racist as long as fears are being kept alive and with it conforming to a group.

  34. Hateatea 34
    17 April 2012 at 8:39 pm

    @ vto 7.50pm
    Do you truly believe that your people have never acted in a similar manner? We finally abolished slavery for just one example, did your people?
     
    Now I am seriously annoyed. You keep taking threads with only a tenuous connection to Māori only issues and turn it into a forum for your problems with pre-European iwi life and attack, attack, attack. You particularly seem to have a problem with QoT and martymars, even to the point where you seem not to turn up until one or other of them has posted. It makes your particular slant very hard to take. I have tried being polite, I have attempted to get you to be specific, quoting the source of your particular problem with our pre-contact history but you make generalisations with no reference to context.
     
    As for your slavery assertion – cite your evidence for people being taken by whānau, hapū or iwi, thousands of miles across the sea, in unsanitary conditions, to be sold to people who had different language, cultural values, religion etc, where families were mere goods to be separated at the whim of the owner whilst all the time professing to be living a good Christian lifestyle and I might engage with you.
     
    Whether you are a racist or not, you are prejudiced. That makes me sad 🙁

    • vto 34.1
      17 April 2012 at 8:56 pm

      Hateatea, if you notice the threads where I take issue with marty or adele or qot it is not me who comes out swinging. On each occasion it has been they who swing the initial blindsider. For example, see Adele’s comment above re racism in NZ prior to the ‘boats’ arriving. Please read it carefully and read my reply – it was in fact a relatively calm questioning of her position, with just a minor jab to balance her own.

      Similarly with QoT’s thread a week or so ago. And my battle with marty mars some time ago – he commenced it with a dig about the colonists military ways as if it was something exclusive to the early settlers and foreign to maori. These digs do not sit well and I will defend and attack until reason is seen or things are proved wrong or I have the wrong end of the stick. For example, see marty mars and I above. He finally conceded that the human frailties are consistent across all.

      I stand by my posts. They are somewhat defensive but imo they stem from unjustified attacks from these posters in the first place. They each consistently make posts which are biased and unbalanced and heavy-hitting (did you not pick up that my ‘slavery’ jab was an equivalent response to her ‘go home’ jab? How do you classify ‘go home’ relative to ‘slavery’?). What sort of reply do you expect? I keep a watchful eye for others telling me to pull my head in and takes cues from that – but you may notice their infrequency

      Perhaps the problem is that it is in fact immeasurably difficult for each of us to look through someone else’s lenses.

      • vto 34.1.1
        17 April 2012 at 9:13 pm

        Just one more thought Hateatea – you know, my own not too long ago ancestry includes both slave trader and slave tradee. WTF? Perhaps this mixed-up world is also part reason why these issues get thrashed so heavily…

      • marty mars 34.1.2
        17 April 2012 at 10:14 pm

        I didn’t conceed anything fool – typical of you to twist it all around – the point you were so earnest about is obvious and totally unconnected with this post or racism. What a goddamn waste of time you are vto.

        • vto 34.1.2.1
          17 April 2012 at 10:31 pm

          “Nothwithstanding that i think all peoples have attitudes and behaviours, that in our world we now consider rightly unacceptable. Even by human standards of decency many peoples have committed disgusting acts upon their neighbours and communities – the fuckers are still doing it now. How we can live in a world where it still happens is beyond me.”

          your words

          • marty mars 34.1.2.1.1
            18 April 2012 at 8:50 am

            my words, that you are using to push your agenda, an agenda I oppose. One thing is for sure – you have zero moral high ground IMO so leave me out of your rantings please.

            • vto 34.1.2.1.1.1
              19 April 2012 at 11:48 am

              marty mars, you seem to think I have some agenda. You have referred to some hidden aim of mine several times. There is no such thing. Why don’t you just read the posts? You sound paranoid and conspiratorial.

              My point was that racism, as a form of prejudiced behaviour, is a trait common across all of humanity, expressed in different ways at different times in different cultures. Nothing more nothing less.

              You, and adele and hateatea, seem to think that such a trait does not exist across all humanity and is particularly particular to the whitey in New Zealand.

              That is the issue I have with you and the others and your views. It is nothing to do with the particularities of Maori, pakeha and te tiriti problems.

              Answer it if you can but please don’t accuse me of ranting and abusing because an objective look back across this entire thread will show that is absolutely not the case. It is disappointing that on each and every occasion you let loose a cannon blast of personal jabs. But each to their own.

              You guys need to get off your high horse on this issue – everyone gets bucked off it at some point.

              • Hateatea …
                19 April 2012 at 12:20 pm

                I am breaking my self imposed, ignore the irritating person, ban to leave you with this thought: The wise person speaks only of things they know. I speak of tauiwi on Māori because that is what I know. I am seldom in a position to see Fijian Indians or Asians being racist and as I hope I don’t demonstrate racist practices myself, I can’t speak to that. I am sure that individual tangata whenua are racist but as that doesn’t apply to me or mine (that I personally have observed) I cannot provide any comment on that.
                 
                I don’t believe anyone here believes that racism belongs to anyone ethnicity or skin colour. I also don’t believe that all of the tāngata whenua who post here believe that all tauiwi are racist either. It is important to note though that one or two have demonstrated for the world to read, their blatant anti-Māori prejudice.

                • vto …
                  19 April 2012 at 12:38 pm

                  Thanks Hateatea, noted. The sentiments expressed on here by others at times don’t follow your statement though and in evidence I refer to Adele’s first post here … ” Aotearoa has been afflicted by racism since the first ‘boats’ arrived.” as if somehow the human trait leading to racism, amongst other same prejudiced behaviour, was absent in Aotearoa and only brought in by the white manwoman. It is this that I dispute.

                  But look I am well wearied by this thread and will have to leave it now for a breather (one last comment currently sits in moderation). Maybe we can continue it some other time.

  35. Hateatea 35
    17 April 2012 at 9:28 pm

    If you are conflicted by your own heritage don’t take it out on mine!
     
    As I have often told young people who constantly find an excuse to argue and fight, you are not responsible for the words or actions of others, only how you respond. You are blaming the others when their initial posts in this discussion were not directed at you and were not in response to anything you had posted in this discussion because you didn’t turn up unti lafter they did.
     
    Take a look at yourself and be honest with yourself. That is all I can suggest.
     
    Now I am going to go hug my mokopuna, a much healthier thing to do than write about racists, bigots and people who are prejudiced about anything.
     
    Kia tau te rangimarie i waenganui i a tātou katoa

    • vto 35.1
      17 April 2012 at 9:39 pm

      No Hateatea, see my full post in reply to yours. Don’t take just the small minor piece that most favourably suits a point you would like to make. And that point was meant to refer to the mixed background of most all people living in aotearoa. Consider the entire message.

      The posts have all been in relation to the lack of honesty shown in the other posters, as I pointed out.

      I get so very tired of people climbing onto moral high ground as if they are somehow superior – in evidence see Adele’s post above re going home.

      As I said, perhaps it is all of us who cannot see through each others lenses. That is without a doubt what is displayed by their posts. Little or no empathy is displayed by these posters for the positions of those the subject of their slanted points. And that is what I try to take aim at each and everytime.

      edit: and as for ‘turning up after’, you are exactly right. I have turned up after they have made statements which cannot go unchallenged. How can that be done prior? (in addition, you may note that two of them in fact turned up after me, contrary to your claim)

      • vto 35.1.1
        17 April 2012 at 9:57 pm

        And another one more point …. why did you pull out the ‘slavery’ jab of mine yet left untouched the ‘go home’ jab of Adeles? You see, your aims at me and defence of them point to similar features in yourself that you claim about me, namely a bias and prejudice.

        • Hateatea 35.1.1.1
          17 April 2012 at 10:12 pm

          @ vto, because I was addressing your rather unpleasant habit of introducing random, irrelevant and often inaccurate aspersions against Māori, not Adeles, QoT or martymars. Were I doing that, I would choose a quote of theirs.
           
          BTW, you have still not addressed the relevance of the introdution of slavery nor the issue of comparing the mass theft of iwi mangumangu from Africa, transporting them in dreadful conditions, selling them, ill treating them, making huge profits off them while all the time claiming to be Christians with a stone age culture.
           
          I await with baited breath you actually properly addressing your diversion of the day.
           
          My mokopuna are now asleep, smiling sweetly. I pray that attitudes such as yours are something that doesn’t negatively affect their lives

          • vto 35.1.1.1.1
            17 April 2012 at 10:25 pm

            Hateatea, I have explained the slavery jab above. And it was no more random than Adele’s ‘go home’ jab. As stated, your posts are painting a picture of someone with a particular view, slanted and not objective, biased and prejudged.

            I have tried explaining my posts in response to various of theirs i.e. standing up for those they attack with little or no reason, unjustifiably and with no empathy for where and how their subjects may have come to be.

            You know, I try to make each and every one of my posts without personal attack, however if you look back you will note that when I make these posts these others instantly take the personal approach. In evidence see marty mars above.

            I am waiting for the others to explain their own highly unpleasant jabs, which I have cited. marty and his military ways jab, adele and her ‘go home’ jab, and qot and her ‘all rich whites are racist’ jab, for just a few examples. They made them, not me.

            As I have said, read carefully, because you are missing my points.

            And making your own jabs like this ” I pray that attitudes such as yours are something that doesn’t negatively affect their lives” are more of the same. I too pray that they grow up to see the views of others – though the more I read from you, the less confident I am that will happen. (see, not pleasant is it. So give up right now on the personal attacks)

            • Hateatea 35.1.1.1.1.1
              17 April 2012 at 10:37 pm

              Gee, and I was being SO polite too.
               
              I take it that you don’t appreciate the same way that you single out certain people, certain perceived ‘attacks’ and pursue them unceasingly, all the time claiming to be reasonable and clear thinking. Apparently, no one should turn the same microscope on you.
               
              That said, I said nothing to you that should have caused you offense. Your hurt feelings lie solely with your self perception.

              • vto …
                17 April 2012 at 10:41 pm

                “I pray that attitudes such as yours are something that doesn’t negatively affect their lives”

                ” I said nothing to you that should have caused you offense”

                your words.

                • Hateatea …
                  17 April 2012 at 11:01 pm

                  Thin skinned, much? I rest my case. Now I suppose I can expect you stalking me through the blogosphere. You are sad.
                   
                  As I pointed out before, how you react  to the statements of others is within your control, not theirs or mine.
                   
                  From now on I am going to lump you in with the other trolls I routinely ignore.
                   
                  Pō marie

              • kiwi_prometheus …
                17 April 2012 at 10:50 pm

                He’s got a point Hateatea. Your prayer number reminds me of born again Christians who say they will “pray for your soul” after you knock down their arguments.

            • marty mars 35.1.1.1.1.2
              18 April 2012 at 9:00 am

              You know, I try to make each and every one of my posts without personal attack

              Try a bit harder because you are delusional and destructive and sneaky too – but not sneaky enough, we (as in those fighting inequality) see smarmy types like you everyday of the week, maybe a few more jabs would help you – try rabies

              • vto …
                19 April 2012 at 12:02 pm

                Lovely.

                Got any evidence to back up your delusional, destructive, senaky, smarmy and mad-dog claim?

                • vto …
                  19 April 2012 at 12:25 pm

                  I just went back right through this thread to find where I have personally attacked anyone, including you, hateatea, adele and qot. I found just two, one where I called you a piece of chicken shit and one where I called adele ignorant.

                  On the other side of the ledger….

                  I have been labelled by you and them as sad, a troll, bad attitudes that need praying for, racist, bigot, zero moral high ground, waste of time, brainless, pointless, go fuck yourself, chip on shoulder, baldhead, redneck, ignorant, idiotic, delusional, destructive, sneaky, smarmy, mad-dog and see-through. Each of these were simple attacks and have zero argument.

                  The evidence is all there. The picture has been painted.

  36. kiwi_prometheus 36
    17 April 2012 at 11:00 pm

    “Are We this Racist?”

    From the thread comments it is obvious the ‘We’ is actually only white NZers being put in the hot seat, not any other color.

    Which is kind of racist isn’t it?

    • Colonial Viper 36.1
      17 April 2012 at 11:19 pm

      Uh, give us an example of a wealthy Maori landlord who told a poor white disadvantaged family to piss off out of his rental property?

      • kiwi_prometheus 36.1.1
        17 April 2012 at 11:32 pm

        So I’m right then? The “We” is actually only (rich, rentier) white NZers?

        Why isn’t the thread titled “Are white NZers really this racist?”?

        • Colonial Viper 36.1.1.1
          17 April 2012 at 11:40 pm

          maybe you should write your own posts on the Standard. The “contribute” button is on the top right in green.

          • kiwi_prometheus 36.1.1.1.1
            18 April 2012 at 12:04 am

            Maybe your approved contributor should be clear about white NZers being the bashing target in this thread instead of disguising it as some kind of collective angsty introspection.

            • felix 36.1.1.1.1.1
              18 April 2012 at 12:11 am

              “white NZers” are the “bashing target”?

              Funny, I thought racist NZers were.

            • Hateatea 36.1.1.1.1.2
              18 April 2012 at 12:13 am

              If you had followed the links provided by the original contributor you would have noticed that the first story was about an elderly Chinese woman’s story while the second was about a Fijian Indian wanting to rent to only ‘Europeans’,
               
              Hardly white only. Bunji is not to blame for where others take the comments. WE are, including you

              • kiwi_prometheus …
                18 April 2012 at 12:27 am

                One has an Asian victim, the other has white NZers on the advantageous side of racism.

                It is dog whistling and you and your mates on here came running.

                • felix …
                  18 April 2012 at 12:30 am

                  So I guess you’ll want to take back that bit about how it’s “always the white guy” then.

                  • Hateatea …
                    18 April 2012 at 12:33 am

                    Don’t hold your breath, felix. There is no evidence that kiwi_prometheus will understand what you are saying

                  • kiwi_prometheus …
                    18 April 2012 at 12:35 am

                    It is always the white guy with you felix and co. I was about the only one on this thread who gave other examples.

                    So why would I want to take it back?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      18 April 2012 at 12:40 am

                      I figured it out.

                      You’re one of those pricks who thinks that greedy rich white people who hold positions of power in our society are a vulnerable minority who need protection.

                    • felix …
                      18 April 2012 at 12:47 am

                      Hmm, I gave no examples at all. Guess that means I think there’s no such thing as racism.

                • Hateatea …
                  18 April 2012 at 12:30 am

                  Most of us hang out here a lot. You, on the other hand, are the new kid on the block even if you do trot out some familiar lines.

  37. vto 37
    18 April 2012 at 6:59 am

    This thread has exposed several strands to the race debate in our lands… Each valid to an extent imo. Each a different form. It has also exposed ingrained views and biases which are unhelpful to moving forward – on various sides.

    These different strands are difficult to weave together methinks as they get overlapped and muddled.

    So where to next?

  38. Rusty Shackleford 38
    18 April 2012 at 10:01 am

    “You can’t read anything scientific into a self-selecting online poll, but there’s no reason to think that someone would bother deliberately skewing this one.”

    Self selection does not equal deliberate skewing.

  39. dave brownz 39
    19 April 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Modern racism is an ideology that arose with capitalism to justify the ‘primitive accumulation’ of the riches of pre-capitalist society. In pre-capitalist societies competition between tribal, slave or tributary societies causes wars and its associated rationales for warfare eg in tribal societies reciprocity, the defence of rights to ones own territory; in tributary modes dominance, subordination etc. Thus these pre-modern forms of racism reflect the historically specific conditions of the material social relations existent. We could call these forms of racism since they involve the relative valuation of one group by another in order to facilitate social reproduction. Eric Wolf’s book is a brilliant introduction to this.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_and_the_People_Without_History
    When tribal groups go to war to right a wrong their justifications are based on justice not a will to dominate. That doesn’t arise until a social surplus exists to fight over along with the means to enforce domination. Tribal societies underwent that transition to tributary society quite recently in the Pacific and the resistance to domination still exists.
    The first unequal social relationship was between men and women. Sexism is the associated power ideology to justify subordination of women. Women’s resistance can involve the derogation of men but that is not sexism. The struggle for gender equality in the Pacific is directed at eliminating sexism.
    http://livingmarxism.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/on-the-domestic-mode-of-production/
    Similarly, modern racism is the ideology that is used by capitalists in their domination of colonies and semi-colonies. It’s based on the ideology of the bourgeois individual who saved their capital and now has a moral duty to civilise the ‘natives’ by following the required steps. The neo-liberals are a throwback to the raw ideology of bourgeois individualism. Appropriately enough, neo-liberalism arises at a time of capitalism’s decline and impending demise. Its a survival reflex to justify the destruction of all opposition to capitalism’s destructiveness, just as its first expression was a founding mechanism to justify an equally barbaric suppression of all rebellions again capitalism’s conquests.
    So it’s not surprising to see the memes of bourgeois individualism, human rights as civilising mission, Eurocentrism etc re-appearing as part of the right wing ideological offensive. So the open expression of racism reflects these power relations and their underlying social relations of domination and exploitation.
    When individuals such as landlords are racist it has nothing to do with their personal ethnic attributes but everything to do with their role in reproducing capitalist social relations. Their personal stake may be as a self-employed person (landlord, shopkeeper, foreman, contractor etc) whose economic interests are to live off the working class and join the capitalists. 
    That’s why modern racism will only die when capitalism dies, and racists will cease being racists when they no longer have an economic rationale to oppress others.
     
     

    • kiwi_prometheus 39.1
      19 April 2012 at 9:49 pm

      “The struggle for gender equality in the Pacific is directed at eliminating sexism.”

      Yeah sure, you met QofT yet?

      As for your obscurantist torturous 19th Century Continental philosophy, I think I will pass.

      • felix 39.1.1
        19 April 2012 at 9:58 pm

        There there, it’s ok. I’m sure she still thinks of you now and then.

        • kiwi_prometheus 39.1.1.1
          20 April 2012 at 1:24 am

          As far as I can tell she only thinks of herself. The whole feminist/beat up on white guys thing is just a vehicle for her ego.

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