Booed on boot camps

56 comments on “Booed on boot camps ”

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1. Dom 1

   12 September 2008 at 5:03 pm

   I’ll happily boo Key on this anytime – it’s an ill conceived plan that won’t work.

   There are other, targetted, solutions to youth crime that have far more merit – would love to see more funding for those.
2. Brett Dale 2

   12 September 2008 at 5:52 pm

   I prefer Nationals policy of boot camps than Labour’s Policy of calling these taggers/vandals artists and blaming society.

   I guess Labour doesn’t know how to teach kids right from wrong, they just know how to blame someone else.

   [but i thought it was the parents’ job to raise kids not the State’s. Nanny State out of our lives, eh? I just ask for some consistency Brett. SP]
3. Scribe 3

   12 September 2008 at 5:58 pm

   Dom,

   There are other, targetted, solutions to youth crime that have far more merit – would love to see more funding for those.

   Such as? Youth crime is getting worse, not better. What has Labour done over the last nine years to help the situation?

   The chief youth court judge says boot camps, when paired with mentoring schemes etc, are very successful, as has been shown overseas. I’ll take the word of Andrew Becroft (sp?).
4. Scribe 4

   12 September 2008 at 6:20 pm

   Eddie,

   It’s not John Key’s week really. Winston disappears like magic off the front pages

   Winston dominated the front page three of the five days this week (NZ Herald) and there was a large story on a fourth day. Only the tragic shooting of the police sergeant pushed him off the front page.

   Another Privileges Committee hearing Tuesday, i.e. Winston back on the front page.
5. infused 5

   12 September 2008 at 6:37 pm

   It’s funny, boot camps actually work and create better people.
6. Felix 6

   12 September 2008 at 6:45 pm

   Brett,

   What is “Labour’s policy of calling these taggers/vandals artists” that you talk about?

   I realise that there are a number of art galleries who support the idea that tagging is art – there are fairly regular shows to demonstrate that. I’m totally unaware of any govt. policy on the subject.

   I would be very concerned if you were saying that the govt. should tell art galleries what they are allowed to show.

   Your other remark also intrigues me.:
   “I guess Labour doesn’t know how to teach kids right from wrong, they just know how to blame someone else.”

   I guess I just never picked you as a Nanny-Statist. Who do you think is supposed to teach kids right from wrong?
7. Brett Dale 7

   12 September 2008 at 6:49 pm

   If you dont have permission to spray paint where you are spray painting, your a vandal, not an artist.

   Yep the Labour party always play the blame game with their polices, if they were tough on youth crime, then kids will get the message, what is right and what is wrong.
8. Wayne 8

   12 September 2008 at 6:53 pm

   Brett. The Labour Party does not have a policy that tagging is art. Provide references and stop posting while stoned.
9. jo zinny 9

   12 September 2008 at 7:02 pm

   eddie,

   Moaning Report – nice one!

   brett dale – proof please that boot camps sort vandals without dislocating them in some other way
10. Felix 10

    12 September 2008 at 7:05 pm

    Brett I’m not really wanting to get into a discussion about what constitutes art because it’s irrelevant to the issue. It’s fair to say that most people would agree with you that spray-painting things without permission is not cool. The law agrees because it’s also illegal.

    You have said at least twice this week that Labour thinks tagging is art. Today you even said it’s Labour policy to call vandals artists.

    Can you let us know what you mean?
11. randal 11

    12 September 2008 at 7:19 pm

    boot camps always seem to be the last resort of bullies and their fevered fantasy’s with john keys being no exception. watch him lose his rag before the 8 weeks is up….hahahahahahaha
12. garth mcvicor 12

    12 September 2008 at 7:20 pm

    jo zinny – proof please that the current system of dealing with vandals is effective, or more effective, than say boot camp programes that have been run overseas?
13. Brett Dale 13

    12 September 2008 at 7:31 pm

    Felix:

    Anything can be called art. I can tell you what constitutes vandalism and if you spray paint someone’s property that is vandalism, I don’t care if ya name is Van Gogh or if your just a thug, its a clear cut case of vandalism.

    But not according to our local Labour MP a few years back, These taggers are artists and we should appreciate them more. Just do some emailing to the Labour MP’s in Christchurch you will get the same answer.
14. Brett Dale 14

    12 September 2008 at 7:33 pm

    The boot camp teach discipline and respect, something these young criminals are lacking.
15. Brett Dale 15

    12 September 2008 at 7:34 pm

    Wayne:

    I was told this by a local Labour MP, when the street I was living in got tagged.
16. Razorlight 16

    12 September 2008 at 7:45 pm

    “It’s not John Key’s week”???

    Who’s week was it then? Helen Clark kicks off the election campaign the same week her largest donor calls her self serving, describes her President as a liar, her deputy as a bully and claims he wouldn’t want to be in the trenchs with any of them.

    John Key and National could not have paid any PR company to produce better headlines than these. It was a dream way to begin a campaign you are already winning.
17. randal 17

    12 September 2008 at 8:14 pm

    razorlight…thats just crap put out by a fawning media to appease the right wing ideologues and aint worth donkey doo. the people of this country know who is going to give the best deal and it aint the upstarts and piranhas of the national party.
18. Pascal's bookie 18

    12 September 2008 at 8:14 pm

    Brett, Scribe or infused,

    the thing about boot camps being successful, IIRC, is where they are voluntary. Like the one run by the Army presently. Wasn’t one version of Key’s plan to use boot camps as a last resort, ie send kids along to them when they’d actually rather not be doing it? He may claim they are voluntary, but if you don’t go you lose your benefit or whatever, if these kids don’t have other support systems what do you think such a policy would produce?

    I can’t see that working to be honest. Neither can the Army, if I remember what they said at the time.
19. Cecil 19

    12 September 2008 at 8:21 pm

    I love boot camps, as they sort out the pathetic wimps in Klarkland!!

    [lprent: I like pathetic morons who can’t spell. They wind up falling into moderation traps. Of course most of them are too stupid to read the Policy and learn how to survive here and eventually fall into martyrdom as I ban their arse. ]
20. garth mcvicor 20

    12 September 2008 at 8:22 pm

    randal – that comment comes across as desperate. laughable
21. Colonel Razor Sharp 21

    12 September 2008 at 8:23 pm

    I wouldn’t share a trench with a homo Labour gripper.

    [lprent: Good. Unlike you I’ve actually been in the armed forces.
    So I don’t like sharing a blog site with an tosser with a sexual hangup like you. Read the Policy and lift your Standard otherwise you will be out of here so fast that your arse will fry.]
22. Razorlight 22

    12 September 2008 at 8:23 pm

    Randal, time will tell whether it is in fact crap as you put it.

    But believe me that National could not have dreamed of a better start. The opponents being criticised from their wealthiest supporter.

    The election will not be decided on this but this is not the headlines Helen wanted this week and it was without doubt something that put a smile on the faces of the right.
23. Pascal's bookie 23

    12 September 2008 at 8:33 pm

    I wouldn’t share a trench with a homo Labour gripper.

    Did you think we’d want you darling? Bless.
24. T-Rex 24

    12 September 2008 at 8:35 pm

    “Boot camp” can be a fairly broad brush. There are a lot of things that could qualify.

    Did anyone ever watch any of that “brat-camp” series on TV? It’s the only reality TV I’ve ever enjoyed (or, in fact, watched… oh wait, no, I watched RockstarINXS as well). They seemed astonishingly effective, I was really impressed.

    I doubt that what Key is proposing will be anything like that. Why? Because they’re extremely expensive, and they people running the camps are absolutely nothing like drill instructors. Personally I think such a thing would be money quite well spent.
25. Draco TB 25

    12 September 2008 at 8:40 pm

    The boot camp teach discipline and respect, something these young criminals are lacking.

    Yes Brett, we definitely need fitter, more disciplined and better trained criminals.
26. Pascal's bookie 26

    12 September 2008 at 8:50 pm

    Don’t try to tease army boy, you’re no good at it and I’m just not into you.

    I can meet you in Liverpool if you really fancy some though. Get you sorted right out.
27. Felix 27

    12 September 2008 at 8:55 pm

    Brett that sounds very odd but I have to take you at your word as an honourable gentleman. 😉
28. toad 28

    12 September 2008 at 9:02 pm

    Brett, give young minor offenders some good military training and, guess what, they will graduate to bigger things and we’ll see more cops being shot.

    “Boot camps” which institutionalise the culture of violence, will breed only more violence.
29. coge 29

    12 September 2008 at 9:20 pm

    Toad, the purpose of these boot camps is not to provide combat & weapons training. Where did you get that deeply prejudiced idea?
    If you are indeed representative of the Greens, how are such pre-concieved notions going to help the Greens in an MMP based democracy?
30. randal 30

    12 September 2008 at 9:27 pm

    HMMMM… a collection of frightened little tories whistling in the dark to keep their spirits up.
31. Brett Dale 31

    12 September 2008 at 9:46 pm

    Boot camp would seem to work, if you teach respect it, its not all yelling and screaming like full metal jacket.
32. Pascal's bookie 32

    12 September 2008 at 10:01 pm

    Brett, do you think it will work if it isn’t the kids’ decision to be there?

    If this is run as a last option thing for kids that don’t want to be in education, can’t/won’t work for whatever reason, and the option is boot camp, or lose all government support, I can’t see it working.

    Too much emphasis will have to placed on keeping the buggers in line. You will need to prevent escapes, protect staff, manage contraband with searches etc, and all the other things you have to do in prisons.

    If they don’t want to be there, you will need to make it, in many respects, like a prison, which is not conducive to getting kids to be productive members of society.

    The ones that won’t go, and get cut off from society, will be prime gang recruitment material, because society will have said ‘we don’t want you’.
33. Satin Cool Blue 33

    12 September 2008 at 10:12 pm

    You are so right Brett – the little buggers need to be taught some respect. And may I add all them PC lot really get on my nerves. Political Correctness Nanny Corrupt State etc the root of all evil! It is time for ambition.
34. General Trust 34

    12 September 2008 at 10:28 pm

    Does PC Labour know the meaning of trust or do they need it booted up em?
35. T-Rex 35

    12 September 2008 at 10:29 pm

    Yeah, let’s teach them respect by yelling at them and making them do pointless boot camp stuff – coz that approach obviously worked so well when they were young.
36. Killinginthenameof 36

    12 September 2008 at 11:32 pm

    “Brett Dale
    September 12, 2008 at 7:33 pm

    The boot camp teach discipline and respect, something these young criminals are lacking.”

    Last time they tried boot camps did it result in a 5 or 15 % increase in reoffending, I cant remember which?
37. Draco TB 37

    13 September 2008 at 12:11 am

    Damn it – screwed up the link last time. Here it is – should work this time.
38. monkey boy 38

    13 September 2008 at 6:52 am

    Yes, and to top it all he gets acused of paedophilia by the left. http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/
39. Still raining but spring is in the air 39

    13 September 2008 at 8:15 am

    In a gang culture it is all about discipline and respect, so young criminals can learn discipline and respect – but it is the discipline of violence and respect for less positive role models who teach them to use their anger on others.

    To respect other people, we have to be able to respect our selves and some young people have no repect for themselves – low self esteem and lack of love. Some of the work that is being done around this country is bloody amazing and working as it is supporting young people to find themselves, which leads on to them learning empathy, compassion and have a sense of self respect and pride. A lot of this stuff is also about prevention rather than a cure where schools and organisations work with children and young adults to prevent them losing themselves and ending up in gangs etc

    The only problem is schools and the relevant organisations are severely under resourced and I do not see the “nats” focusing on resourcing them better as they didn’t when they were in power last.
40. Private Ernest 40

    13 September 2008 at 8:48 am

    IrishBill says: you are now banned for six months dad.
41. T-rex 41

    13 September 2008 at 9:05 am

    Dear gibbering moron,

    Do you realise the basis on which the symbol associated with your name is assigned?

    See if you can work it out.

    Though your stupidity is badge enough…
42. Still raining but spring is in the air 42

    13 September 2008 at 9:20 am

    Someone got up feeling a bit grumpy this morning – a vent before nine PE/SS/PP.

    hope you are feeling better now
43. T-rex 43

    13 September 2008 at 9:57 am

    I haven’t got up yet – quite the opposite 🙂 I didn’t mean you btw, thought your post was spot on; my comment above was directed at the trolling name changer of little brain.
44. Still raining but spring is in the air 44

    13 September 2008 at 10:12 am

    I wasn’t meaning you either (-: but the person posing as platoom pete etc. It is a pain when an interesting thread gets crapped on. Wish there some magic button where I can make them invisible, though it is quite fascinating that someone would go to the trouble of being a such a twit this early in the morning – on a saturday too.
45. Felix 45

    13 September 2008 at 11:08 am

    Bloody name-changers and fakes! Lock em all up and throw away the Key!
46. jo zinny 46

    13 September 2008 at 11:25 am

    To brett Dale,

    Could you try answering my question of 12 Sept please. This was — proof please that boot camps sort vandals without dislocating them in some other way.

    In the matter of respect I would respectfully suggest that you consider this more something learned. Taught, per your opinion to date, is fraught with failures.. a reason for this might well be that recipients have not sufficient learning to recognise likely and/or possible benefits for themselves..
47. Brett Dale 47

    13 September 2008 at 11:32 am

    If I can track down the stats and hard data I will get back to you. Have you any stats and hard data that Boot camp doesn’t work?
48. dad4justice 48

    13 September 2008 at 12:07 pm

    What – boot camp for 6 months. Thanks Mike.

    IrishBill: Make it six weeks. It’s a bit unfair to ban you until after the election and we do have a soft spot for you. Just don’t try to come back until then and when you do, clean up your behaviour.
49. randal 49

    13 September 2008 at 12:38 pm

    it didnt work for kelvin blerk and the other bombastic blowhards on ‘solid brass’ either
50. The PC Avenger 50

    13 September 2008 at 1:47 pm

    Brett, that’s not a hard task. A few minutes of research returned a number of research papers specifically on the effectiveness of youth orientated boot camps.

    One study (Bottcher & Ezell, 2005) found that there was no significant difference between reoffending rates for youth involved in a boot camp programme, and those in traditional youth justice programmes. Follow ups occurred during each year after the programme until parole, and again, no significant difference was found between the two groups.

    In another study (Steiner & Giacomazzi, 2007), it was found that the only significant difference between youth in a camp programme and a control group (who were just under probation) was a very slight reduction in the rate of reconviction. However, they were no less likely to reoffend, and 74% of those in the programme later reoffended. The conclusion was that the boot camp didn’t have any significant effect on recidivism, positive or negative.

    The type of boot camps you seem to want, along the lines of “The boot camp teach discipline and respect, something these young criminals are lacking” have already been run in other countries, and have failed in their goal of reducing recidivism. As noted by one of the researchers

    “The bulk of the evidence from previous studies supports the conclusion that boot camps are ineffective as correctional treatment” (Bottcher & Ezell, 2005).

    As a closing note, it’s worth mentioning that the Bottcher & Ezell quote is referring to the following research paper: “Effects of Correctional Boot Camps on Offending”, which, funnily enough, stated “A meta-analysis found no overall significant differences in recidivism between boot camp participants and comparison samples.’

    Bottcher, J & Ezell M. (2005). Examining the Effectiveness of Boot Camps: A Randomized Experiment with a Long-Term Follow Up. Jean Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency, 42, 309.

    Steiner, B & Giacomazzi, A (2007) Juvenile Waiver, Boot Camp, and Recidivism in a Northwestern State. The Prison Journal, 87, 227.

    captcha: youths marine
51. Brett Dale 51

    13 September 2008 at 1:53 pm

    Thanks for posting the information, I shall give those reports a wee look.
52. DeeDub 52

    13 September 2008 at 2:08 pm

    Satin Cool Blue:

    Yes….. ‘ambition’! Why, you’ve got it! The answer to all the world’s problems. People just need to focus on ‘ambition’!! Of course! How could we have struggled through all these dark centuries without figuring that one out before? Genius! It’s time for ambition……Thank-you.
53. randal 53

    13 September 2008 at 2:17 pm

    as far as I can see they are usually run by sociopaths who make enough noise to get government funding and then they are free to work their fantasy’s out on captive youths. go figure that one out.
54. T-rex 54

    13 September 2008 at 6:48 pm

    “as far as I can see they are usually run by sociopaths who make enough noise to get government funding and then they are free to work their fantasy’s out on captive youths. go figure that one out.”

    I think that’s probably pretty unfair – especially in the context under discussion: Key suggested the idea himself without even MENTIONING it to those he expected to run the program (The army, who from memory thought it was a pretty stupid idea).
55. DeeDub 55

    13 September 2008 at 6:59 pm

    Which just goes to show that Key is a loose cannon, firing at will with no thought to the target in front let alone those standing behind wondering what the hell they’re firing at…..
56. Anita 56

    13 September 2008 at 7:14 pm

    My memory of what the guy from the army who runs the one Key mentioned said, was that the key to success is that they work with kids who want to be there.

    There are plenty of really good programmes for young people who want to make a change in their lives, which aren’t run by sociopaths. Some use the discipline-and-structure approach, some the lots-of-physical-activity approach, others use education or literacy or trade skills or self awareness or tikanga. None I’ve ever heard have said that they can turn around kids who don’t want to change.

    This is (yet another) example of National’s obsession with compulsion. Take something that’s working on a voluntary basis, make it compulsory and see the kids and programmes fail.

    It’s just like their approach to the DPB. Rather than improving solo parents’ access to employment by ensuring the work is there and shaped for solo parents, make it compulsory to work and see solo parents fail and their families damaged.

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