Highlights quoted out of the National-New Zealand First coalition agreement

73 comments on “Highlights quoted out of the National-New Zealand First coalition agreement ”

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1. observer 1

   25 November 2023 at 9:57 am

   "Reduce Core Crown expenditure as a proportion of the overall economy."

   That's not surprising, it's what anyone would expect from right-leaning governments anywhere. But …

   It is then followed by a list of plans, at least 25 of which involve spending more money than currently. (And that doesn't even include hidden but predictable costs in future, like more spending because of increases in smoking-related health problems).
2. Belladonna 2

   25 November 2023 at 10:05 am

   This sounds like good news for the tiny homes movement:

   Amend the Building Act and the Resource Consent system to make it easier to build granny flats or other small structures up to 60sqm requiring only an engineer’s report

   Currently, they are often strangled by bureaucratic red tape by Councils – or banned altogether.
   • joe90 2.1

     25 November 2023 at 12:59 pm

     requiring only an engineer’s report

     Because self-regulation will work. This time.

     they are often strangled by bureaucratic red tape by Councils

     Being held to the same planning and construction codes as any other home being built is bureaucratic red tape?
     • Belladonna 2.1.1

       25 November 2023 at 3:32 pm

       Paying $20+K for a 'resource consent' in order to put a granny flat on your back garden, is absolutely extortion from the Council.

       You then have to pay the standard building consents and charges on top of this.

       No reason that a standard home from a standard provider should have to have an individual building consent, either.

       But, hey if you support regulating tiny homes out of existence…..
       • Visubversa 2.1.1.1

         25 November 2023 at 4:55 pm

         A "standard home from a standard provider" will need Building Consent to ensure that it is "safe and sanitary". Any building work that establishes new connections etc generally requires a BC.

         There are also rules and regulations about yard setbacks for amenity and fire safety reasons, and impervious area/site coverage for stormwater and green space reasons.

         If there are no District Plan infringements, many Plans (like the one I worked with at one of my last jobs) have Minor Dwellings of up to 60m2 as a permitted activity – meaning no need for a Land Use Consent.

         If Land Use Consent is needed, and it is a simple matter, it is not likely to cost $20,000 for a Land Use Consent.

         I got LUC for extensions and alterations to my home 5 years ago. It cost just under $2,000 for a Hydrology Engineer's report because the site was subject to some Overland Flow, and it is in a Heritage Zone where any building change requires Consent.

         I wrote my own Assessment of Environmental Effects and put in my own application. I reckon if I had charged someone for it as a Consultant Planner it would have cost about $2,000 for that work.

         I paid a deposit of $2,500 for the processing fee and because I had given Council everything they needed, Consent was granted in 11 days and I got a refund of about $800.
         • Belladonna 2.1.1.1.1

           26 November 2023 at 11:13 am

           Next door neighbour (inner Auckland suburb, no heritage overlay). Around 25K required for the resource consent to add a minor dwelling (basically a box with eaves, but because it has a sewage connection, it requires a RC).

           If you have the knowledge (and connections) to write this yourself and navigate the complexities of the Council system – then more power to you. Most don't.
       • adam 2.1.1.2

         25 November 2023 at 7:11 pm

         But, hey if you support regulating tiny homes out of existence…..

         No, but nor do I want them as the solution to the housing crisis. Collected together they look like a refuge camp, and will have next to no services. Tory idiots have a track record here.

         Also if we are going to infill like this – which I think is a good idea. Then getting leaky tiny homes is some bullshit I don't want to see again.
         • Belladonna 2.1.1.2.1

           26 November 2023 at 11:09 am

           The proposal to free-up granny-flat style accommodation in existing backyards, isn't going to create refugee camps of tiny homes. But will enable multi-generational families to co-exist – and (potentially) be a great solution for retired renters, who don't have the capital for retirement homes.

           TBH – any space which is large enough to create a 'refugee camp' of tiny homes in Auckland, is going to be snapped up for larger development (by KO, if not other providers)

           The leaky homes are overwhelmingly concentrated in the 'architect designed' monolithic clad and apartment building space. Not in the simple box-with-eaves style of building which most entry-level tiny homes comprise.

           Having the provider get building consent once for the design – should be sufficient for all local councils. If you want to employ an architect, and design a top-drawer customized solution, then you can afford to pay for the council to evaluate your design.

           Of course, the Council still needs to sign off on the build (to make sure the builder hasn't cut corners) – but that shouldn't be an onerous or expensive job.
       • joe90 2.1.1.3

         25 November 2023 at 10:59 pm

         I support the building of sustainable, habitable spaces constructed to a standard with durable, easily maintained materials, that meet the planning requirements of the community they're being built in.
         • Belladonna 2.1.1.3.1

           26 November 2023 at 11:16 am

           And, do you also support Councils deciding that their 'planning requirement' effectively shut out the possibility of tiny homes? Because, that's the reality in some local government areas in NZ.
3. Belladonna 3

   25 November 2023 at 10:07 am

   I'm not, personally, in favour of this…. but it has had wide support across multiple different parties at different times.

   Support to select committee a bill that would enact a binding referendum on a four-year term of parliament

   I wonder if it will get cross-party support?

   The wording makes it look as though National are prepared to back away if there turns out to be a tsunami of public disapproval….
   • Tabletennis 3.1

     25 November 2023 at 11:32 am

     "Support to select committee a bill that would enact a binding referendum on a four-year term of parliament "

     I think I could support this if it would also have a party threshold change of say 3.5% change
     • Belladonna 3.1.1

       25 November 2023 at 4:11 pm

       I don't really feel that the two things are connected – apart, of course, for both being related to Parliament.

       Extending the parliamentary term to 4 years – is entirely independent of the make up of parliament (whether the threshold is 5% or 3.5% or any other number).

       I don't see why changing the threshold would make a 4-year term any more or less desirable.

       Or were you seeing it as a trade-off? (if you give me this part I want, I'll support the part you want)

       Multiple changes are much more likely to see a referendum fail. Which (if that is what you want) can also be a reason to add extra factors.

       However, open to being convinced.
       • Tabletennis 3.1.1.1

         26 November 2023 at 1:03 pm

         "Extending the parliamentary term to 4 years – is entirely independent of the make up of parliament (whether the threshold is 5% or 3.5% or any other number)."

         Sure you are right in regards to the length of the term however:
         a parliament that is made up of more than the two major parties – who merely undo what a previous government did – such that the voice of more people is heard.
   • Craig H 3.2

     25 November 2023 at 11:59 am

     Was suggested in the 2020 political debates and had cross-party support then. My guess is that it will just be a referendum in 2026.
4. Belladonna 4

   25 November 2023 at 10:09 am

   Amend the Waitangi Tribunal legislation to refocus the scope, purpose, and nature of its inquiries back to the original intent of that legislation.

   This one is so full of fish-hooks it could be trademarked by Talleys.

   I wonder who gets the joyous job of shepherding it through the select committee and parliament.
   • pat 4.1

     25 November 2023 at 10:28 am

     "Amend the Waitangi Tribunal legislation to refocus the scope, purpose, and nature of its inquiries back to the original intent of that legislation"

     Does this mean reverting to the original 1975 Act (that only allowed for breaches post 1975) or something other?

     As with everything to do with this issue there is unlimited (deliberate?) ambiguity….by all sides.

     It is little wonder it is problematic when no one can pin down what agreement is being sought upon.
5. bwaghorn 5

   25 November 2023 at 10:28 am

   """– Repeal amendments to the Smokefree Environments and Regulated Products Act 1990 and regulations before March 2024, removing requirements for denicotisation, removing the reduction in retail outlets and the generation ban, while also amending vaping product requirements and taxing smoked products only.

   – Reform the regulation of vaping, smokeless tobacco and oral nicotine products while banning disposable vaping products and increasing penalties for illegal sales to those under 18. ""

   Big tobacco obviously pay better than the vape companies.
6. Tony Parker 6

   25 November 2023 at 11:04 am

   "…an hour each of reading, writing and maths every day"

   How? Cameras in every classroom monitoring and timing teachers. Make up time after school on sports days/class trips. Stupid. No trust in teachers and schools to do what's best for their tamariki.
   • Belladonna 6.1

     25 November 2023 at 11:18 am

     No trust in teachers and schools to do what's best for their tamariki.

     Well, yes, that is rather the point.

     Achievement levels in reading and maths are declining – and have been for decades. Whatever is happening in the teaching space, clearly isn't working.

     I think that you'd find that most parents of school-age children would be on board with this change.

     And, it was very widely signalled pre-election – this is one of the changes that people knew about and voted for.

     I don't know that it will fix the issue (IMO, the MoE approved teaching method for reading is probably more of a barrier, than the amount of time spent) – but it's difficult to see how it can do harm.

     And the 'how' is obvious. Instruct the principals to implement it in their school. Just as they did for teaching NZ history.
     • bwaghorn 6.1.1

       25 November 2023 at 11:48 am

       I've got kid at year 9 , the methods and subjects being taught are far better than back in my day, I read the yr 9 science exam yesterday, excellent in both knowledge and teaching conceptual thinking,

       I'd bet the lowering outcomes is mostly attendance related, some kids are barely attending due to economic, psychological problems and a dose of slack parents.
       • Belladonna 6.1.1.1

         25 November 2023 at 4:15 pm

         The problem isn't the standards, the problem is the number of kids who are nowhere close to achieving the standards.

         More than 40 per cent of students failed the writing and maths components of the latest NCEA literacy and numeracy tests.

         https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-maths-and-literacy-assessment-prioritised-other-ncea-changes-slowed
         • bwaghorn 6.1.1.1.1

           25 November 2023 at 4:46 pm

           Has any one studied if there is a link between attendance, single parent homes, poverty or race and results ? Instead of blaming teachers.
     • mpledger 6.1.2

       25 November 2023 at 12:26 pm

       The "decline" is against international tests that test things in a way we don't teach or test, or new countries that selectively put kids into the tests. Overseas they tend to put an emphasis on very exacting, rote learning while NZ tends to put much more emphasis on doing. On the other hand, we are having more kids come to school with English as a second language.

       It will be pretty interesting to see year 0 kids do an hour of writing unless it's a very liberal definition of writing. And once it gets that liberal then the law is an ass. In year 8, the kids at my daughter's school had to do 20 minutes of writing a day and from what I can tell they really disliked it. But they did do two hours or reading/writing and 1 hour of maths.
       • Belladonna 6.1.2.1

         25 November 2023 at 4:04 pm

         I don't think that you'd find any evidence, against any set of standards, international or local, which would find that Kiwi kids achievement standards for numeracy or literacy are improving.

         The benchmark test this year for NCEA numeracy and literacy (the new standards they have to pass to get NCEA) had a 40% failure rate.

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/education-more-than-40-per-cent-of-students-fail-latest-ncea-writing-maths-tests/JVGN6E5OFZCZRDID4E32KDMRN4/

         Note: this is still in the trial period, and most schools are only allowing kids who they feel have a good chance of passing, to sit the tests. So 40% is an under-measure of the failure rate of the whole cohort.

         While Tinetti claims that "only a small number of students participated" – the reality is that there were 41,000 – which is a very substantial test, indeed.

         These tests are intended to measure 'functional' literacy and numeracy. Can the student read, comprehend, write, and perform basic mathematics – at a level required to participate in adult society. They are not asked to analyse 'War and peace' or solve quadratic equations.

         It seems undeniable, that the NZ school system has been turning out students who are functionally illiterate and innumerate. In fact, that was the reason the additional papers were added – employers, tertiary institutions and parents, were all outraged where teens had gained NCEA qualifications, but couldn't actually function in a modern workplace, let alone go on to further education.

         https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-maths-and-literacy-assessment-prioritised-other-ncea-changes-slowed

         English as a second language students are largely irrelevant – as long as they begin in the primary years. The vast majority go on to successfully achieve NCEA, and often excel educationally. The persistent trail of under-achievement is almost never new migrants.

         While Covid has had an impact, it's beyond time that schools stopped using this as an excuse. If a child is so far behind their peers, then it is, educationally, much better for them to repeat a year, and actually learn the material – than it is to sit in a class, floundering (and being made to feel stupid) – or worse, still, stop coming to school.

         If a child can't read at appropriate age level – then the school needs to take urgent action – rather than pretending the problem doesn't exist.

         I suspect that your daughter's class actually incorporated 'writing' in lots of other subject areas (social studies, science, etc.), as well as the 20 minutes she disliked. It sounds as though her school are already meeting the reading, writing, maths targets, and won't have to make changes.

         I would anticipate that the Year Zero kids 'writing' will be letter recognition and formation – and will be integrated into the other activities of the school day – just as maths is.
         • Ed1 6.1.2.1.1

           26 November 2023 at 11:07 am

           "While Covid has had an impact, it's beyond time that schools stopped using this as an excuse."

           Many schools do analyse absenteeism, and staying away because a child or family member is ill is more common than it used to be – Covid is still with us, and rightly feared. Other influences will be poverty despite both parents working, transport, language problems, poor pre-school experiences (more paid child care than Kindergarten development). Our world has changed, and sadly many teachers are still affected by the previous National Party changes that put measuring failure ahead of teaching to get past those failures – student teachers were taught that paperwork is more vital than children learning . . .
           • Belladonna 6.1.2.1.1.1

             26 November 2023 at 11:37 am

             Teachers have been under a Labour led government for the last 6 years – and 'student teachers' will never have known anything else in their workplace.

             Chronic school absenteeism is almost never health related. And, if you're implying that it's OK for kids (almost always girls) to be pulled out of school to care for younger siblings, then you and I are going to differ.

             Poverty is a reason for kids to be in school, not a reason not to be. Schools provide free meals (certainly in all lower decile areas), help with uniforms and learning materials (also free, in many schools). As well as 6 hours of time, per day, when parents are not responsible for their care.

             Transport might be an issue for older kids – but every primary school is walking distance for the kids in their zone (or the MoE provides a free school bus, for country kids)

             I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'language problems'. If you're thinking about immigrants with English as a second language – they are generally highly motivated to have their kids in school, and learning English as quickly as possible. If you're thinking about speech/language development issues – then I agree that the current level of support services in schools is woefully inadequate (and not only for language, but a whole raft of learning difficulties).

             It's very difficult to argue that high-quality pre-school care is essential, at the same time when we are looking to the Nordic countries, where kids don't go to school until they are 7. Nor am I a fan of the 'educational' preschools – kids learning through play are much better prepared for a lifetime of learning [Full confession, I'm an ex-Playcentre child and mum]

             However, I do agree that there is evidence that full-time commercial child-care for children under 2 – is not beneficial for the child. But, I've not seen any evidence that ties lower school achievement to daycare participation. Many of the kids turning up to school with poor socialization issues, have never been in any form of daycare.

             Whatever the source of the problem. Ensuring kids are in school (so the issues can be addressed), and requiring schools to address and resource fixing the problem, as soon as feasible, is essential.

             One big issue which hasn't been addressed – is the fact that schools are financially motivated to keep non-attending kids on the roll (roll-based funding), but not encourage them to actually turn up (when they have to deal with educational and behavioural issues – which requires staffing resources). Much easier to just keep ticking them as 'absent'.
             • Tony Veitch …

               27 November 2023 at 4:56 am

               Maybe we need truant officers to follow up on these absentees?

               Oh, wait, they were abolished by the Natz and have only been making a comeback under Labour!
               • Belladonna …

                 27 November 2023 at 1:03 pm

                 And have they made a difference under Labour? Looking at the most recent school absentee figures (released after the election) – it appears, not.
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 27 November 2023 at 6:10 pm

                 Maybe the Natz can make a positive difference differently? The % of school students attending regularly will probably continue to trend upwards in 2024, after the very low attendance in 2022 – time will tell.

                 https://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/statistics/attendance

                 
     • mikesh 6.1.3

       26 November 2023 at 9:21 am

       Achievement levels in reading and maths are declining – and have been for decades. Whatever is happening in the teaching space, clearly isn't working.

       TV replacing extramural reading, and the use of electronic calculators, probably contribute to these declines.
     • KJT 6.1.4

       26 November 2023 at 10:11 am

       Note the decline in achievement in schools are the cohort that went through most of their schooling during the previous Governments NACT standards.

       But why use evidence to decide on educational policy.
       • Belladonna 6.1.4.1

         26 November 2023 at 10:56 am

         Yes. The point which I'm trying to make is that the current education policy isn't working. I feel that the MoE is much more to blame for this than any government.

         But, they (very clearly) won't change until they are made to.

         Tinetti made a good start with getting them (finally, after 20+ years of evidence-based research, that their balanced literacy model didn't work for around 30% of kids) – to shift towards allowing a phonics-based decodable reading approach.

         I would hope that the incoming government would build on this – and hopefully make the mills-of-god, glacial, approach to change speed up a little – so we don't have another 3 years of kids failing to learn to read.
         • KJT 6.1.4.1.1

           26 November 2023 at 2:19 pm

           The whole idea that there is "one best way" is fatally flawed. Learners are not a homogenous bunch. You may find Phonics alone may work for 30%?

           We know from evidence that a mixed approach tailored by skilled Teachers to learners works best.

           NACT however are determined on "one size fits all" except for the "elite" of course. KJT. Random musings on all sorts of things.: The real aims of National’s “Education” policy. (kjt-kt.blogspot.com) This is doomed to failure, just like National's previous attempts to dumb down State education to rote learning 3R's.

           There is one really good reason why Finlands education system tops the charts. Private for profit schools are not allowed! The wealthy, whose kids go to the same schools as everyone else, insist on a quality public education system that recruits and pays the best Teachers.
           • ianmac 6.1.4.1.1.1

             26 November 2023 at 7:52 pm

             KJT As you know at least 80% kids learn to read well. Many are able to read at adult level. It is the other 20-30% who have difficulty: culture, dyslexic, poverty, ESL. The antiNZ-school cry has been that NZ kids are failing. Not so for large majority. And to make those able to learn to read naturally/organically it would be criminal to risk loosing the joy of reading by insisting on a narrow phonics approach.

             And by the way, NZ is well inside the top 10 out of 80+ countries on Reading achievement according to PISA.

             Imagine a 5 year old "doing reading" for an hour per day every day1
             • Belladonna …

               26 November 2023 at 9:41 pm

               Imagine a 5 year old "doing reading" for an hour per day every day

               What do you think goes on in primary schools? It sounds as though you've not been inside one, for quite some time.

               'Reading' in Year one involves using age-based and levelled readers (the argument is over whether phonics-based ones are a better solution to whole-language ones – but the 'reader' format is the same). Good schools will already be doing an hour a day of this – certainly in Year 1-3. It will almost certainly be broken up into smaller chunks (a solid hour of anything is a lot for a 5 year old to manage).

               I'd like to see your evidence that 80% of NZ kids "learn to read well'. And the time-frame within which this happens.

               And, why (even if this figure is true) you feel that it's an acceptable result for 20% of kids to grow up as functionally illiterate adults.

               Kids who have a natural ability to decode text – breeze through phonics, and rapidly move on to chapter books. Nothing about a phonics-first approach prevents them from experiencing the 'joy of reading'.
               • ianmac …

                 26 November 2023 at 11:43 pm

                 Belladona. When I started teaching it was the end of phonic based reading era using Janet and John. Janet and John taught many kids to read but for many it resulted in less of a love love of reading. I started with the Ready to Read scheme which involved contextual clues, and contextual phonics. The accent was on the pleasure of books, and we integrated reading with the writing process. An inspector came into my room and said "Who would like to read to me?" Every kid grabbed a book and rushed the poor man which answered the question of do kids, whatever the system of teaching, actually enjoy reading and are the confident in the competence. I am yet to see evidence that phonics helps kids to enjoy the printed word.

                 Near the end of my time we had given up on ability grouping (streaming?) and worked on an individual wholistic approach. I fear that phonic teaching will cause kids to revert to ability grouping in order to manage the logistics.

                 PS: After years of watching people learning to read I still don't know how we actually turn printed symbols into meaningful images/thoughts.. It works that somehow it happens but no one can explain to me how it happens. Can you Belladona.
                 • Belladonna …

                   27 November 2023 at 8:27 am

                   I fear that phonic teaching will cause kids to revert to ability grouping in order to manage the logistics.

                   Ability grouping is already used within the classroom (reading groups, at different reader levels). There is no other way that a teacher could manage – given the ….very…. different ability levels within a classroom. A Year 2 teacher, for example, may have kids with reading ability ranging from Year 0 – right the way through the Year 3 or 4.

                   I can't explain at the neurolinguistic level – not my area of expertise. But my understanding is that reading is decoding. So learning to associate a letter (b) or letter group (sch) with a sound. In the initial phase, the learner sounds out each letter, and then strings them together into a word (c – a – t = cat = cat!). This requires letter recognition (yes, I've seen that pattern/letter before, it is 'c'). The ability to associate that pattern with a specific sound (c sounds like…). The ability to chain several of these together into a word (without forgetting the ones at the beginning – which is why short words are better, than long ones). And the ability to recognize the several letter-sounds as a single word (gaining meaning).

                   Breaking it up this way helps specialist teachers to figure out where a kid is struggling in the reading process: e.g. if someone is struggling to recognize letters – and many kids do mix some up in the early stages – you need to work with them on this, before looking at sounds, combinations and meanings. Conversely, some 'quick' readers, sound out the words and letters, but don't actually 'understand' that c,a,t = cat. Those are the kids that you need to work on reading with meaning.

                   It all sounds very mechanistic. And in the early stages it is. Some kids, have a natural ability to skate through the early stages quickly – and it looks as though they are just reading whole words. But, neurolinguistically, they are carrying out the same decoding process – just doing it quickly. [There have been brain scan studies, showing this]

                   Of course, as you get better at this reading process, your pattern recognition skills expand – your memory of words expands, and you no longer have to sound out most words (although you still may use this technique for longer or unfamiliar words – and get trapped by the weirdness of English spelling 🙂 )
                 • Belladonna …

                   27 November 2023 at 8:43 am

                   I can't say that I love Janet and John (they'd pretty much gone by the time I was at school).

                   But I've seen the misery of kids in the early years classrooms, who just don't get the whole-language approach – and flounder at reading. Kids who are put into 'Reading recovery' at 6 – which is exactly the same teaching method which has just failed for them. And kids who are self-identifying as 'stupid' because they are in the 'bottom reading group' (and it doesn't matter what names you use for the groups, they figure it out very quickly).
                   Many of these kids quickly become highly resistant to reading anything (entirely understandably – why would you engage with something that you find so hard, and unrewarding).

                   Yes, you can turn this around. But it requires a lot of investment (specialist teacher time, in particular), and a lot of coaching/support/scaffolding to help a child believe they can become a confident reader. Too many just don't get this opportunity.

                   https://theconversation.com/young-new-zealanders-are-turning-off-reading-in-record-numbers-we-need-a-new-approach-to-teaching-literacy-141527

                   I've heard from teacher friends about the transition that they've seen in classrooms which have switched to decodable/phonics based teaching and reading practice. And the dramatic improvement in reading progress from struggling readers.

                   This link is not to people I know, but the comments from teachers are very similar.

                   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/rnz/300163434/schools-footing-bill-to-teach-teachers-how-to-teach
                   • ianmac …

                     27 November 2023 at 4:22 pm

                     It was interesting to hear from phonic teachers showing on TV how they teach phonis now. In error they were sounding out letters by name.sounding out letters.

                     P is the name P but it is not the sound pi.

                     And so on. Pin becomes pi. Pan becomes pa. Pond becomes po. Pen becomes pe and so on so the letter has no sound until it is linked to a word. What I used to do was get the kids to form their mouth ready for a P but only make a sound once they had identified the next letter. Part of a wholistic approach.

                     In a junior class I dispensed with ability grouping in reading. I had every infant reading book available in cubby holes for each child to choose what they felt comfortable to read. Buddy reading etc and the effect was a quick learner was not held back by level of the group. And strugglers were not hampered by being in the "dummy" group. So ability grouping was not required but sadly many schools will feel bound to group kids to satisfy the political will.
               • ianmac …

                 26 November 2023 at 11:45 pm

                 By the way that was a good look at reading thanks Belladona.
           • Belladonna 6.1.4.1.1.2

             26 November 2023 at 9:10 pm

             Actually, the research-based evidence is that Phonics/Decodable text works for close to 100% of kids. [There are always a few with complex learning disabilities, who need a tailored solution]. Importantly, every child who learns to read using 'balanced' or whole language' techniques, will also learn using phonics and decodable texts.

             What doesn't work is the hodge-podge of methods currently thrown at kids in the name of balanced literacy. It not only doesn't work, it's actively damaging learning (once kids learn the 'trick' of 'look at the picture and guess' this becomes their preferred strategy. And works fine, until there are no pictures, and it becomes evident that they actually can't read – i.e. decode the text). Again. Evidence based. Shown in research trials for over 20+ years. Not even controversial – anywhere outside the NZ MoE.

             Finland is a fascinating subject. Their kids don't start school until 7. They have a heavily play-based curriculum in the early years (nothing like our factory farmed profit-based ECE). They pay their teachers very well, and it's highly competitive to get into teaching (most of our teacher cohort wouldn't make it). There is a very strong argument, that it's the very high quality of the teaching which makes the difference. It's a very different model. And, based on the articles, it seems as though it only works as a package – you can't pick and choose which bits you want.

             Private schools do exist in Finland – though more like the integrated schools here in NZ. So Macauley would exist, but not Kings.

             “There are private schools in Finland, but they offer the same education based on the national education plan, just like public schools. Private schools get funding from the state and cannot charge fees” to generate profit, according to Niinimäki, who added that private schools need government permission to operate.

             https://www.aacrao.org/edge/emergent-news/private-education-is-not-prohibited-in-finland

             If you believe that State schools are all the same in NZ – you might want to have a hard think about the 'elite' ones like Auckland Grammar. They are the alternative to private schools for the wealthy- and nothing about the Finnish model – even if it were translated to NZ wholesale – would prevent this happening.
     • Peter 6.1.5

       26 November 2023 at 10:17 am

       Maybe standards have dropped because the kids going to school these days are less educable than those of the past.

       How?Why? Because more of them are coming from homes with dumb dumb parents?. Parents who believe there was no such thing as a pandemic, who believe and spread the most nonsensical nonsense about anything, who believe Act is the answer.
       • Descendant Of Smith 6.1.5.1

         26 November 2023 at 10:45 am

         More transience as you move from school to school as you get evicted from one place and have to go to another.

         More power poverty meaning you can't do your homework in winter when your power is disconnected.

         White flight meaning the schools lose a balance between the well off kids and the poorer ones so their is less peer support / healthy competition. Also higher proportions of kids entering with lower level skills in the first place in low decile schools.

         Less teaching of manual skills such as woodwork and metal work – particularly in low decile schools for those kids who are often less academic but more kinesthetic.

         Way too much focus on measuring a schools success by how many kids go on to university. Means the focus is often on those students who are likely to do so you know by the third form that your school isn't that interested in your success as it isn't to go to university. (also linked to the loss of trades training in schools).

         Too much focus on handwriting coming – teach kids to type properly for FFS. When is the last time anyone handwrote anything of substance. Handwriting is going the way of calligraphy. And yeah you can learn to read without the writing bit.

         Oh and reinforce secular education – teaching people god bullshit of any religion asks kids to suspend all sense of logic and commonsense. Stop funding religious schools.
         • Belladonna 6.1.5.1.1

           26 November 2023 at 10:59 am

           Stop funding religious schools.

           Sadly, for your polemic, the 'religious' schools out-perform their peers educationally, and in just about every other measure – at every decile level.

           About time, perhaps, that the state system took a good look at what works so well for 'religious' schools – and learned from them.
           • Drowsy M. Kram 6.1.5.1.1.1

             26 November 2023 at 12:00 pm

             Sadly, for your polemic, the 'religious' schools out-perform their peers educationally, and in just about every other measure – at every decile level.

             Sadly, not all "'religious' schools". Dilworth School and Gloriavale Christian School have been in the news lately. Maybe these are exceptions that prove your point, and it could be argued that Dilworth School 'out-performed' in at least one "other measure".

             Dilworth School has allocated nearly 44-million-dollars for sexual abuse victim redress [13 Nov 2023]

             Aren't most "'religious' schools" part of the "state system" anyway? About two thirds of NZ schools with a religious affiliation are Catholic and so integrated into the state education system.

             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-integrated_school

             Went through the state education system many years ago, and we did have weekly 'Christian assemblies' at one of my primary schools. I've no expertise in current school education – Google helped in compiling this comment.

             New Zealand schools with a religious affiliation
             By affiliation, as at July 2022, number of schools
             • Descendant Of Smith …

               26 November 2023 at 3:56 pm

               Part of what works for many of them them is white flight and wealthier parents. We know that parental wealth is an strong indicator of educational outcomes.

               Recent research shows that parental wealth is an important determinant of educational attainment, net of other characteristics of socioeconomic status (SES). This has important consequences for the intergenerational reproduction of wealth: about a quarter of the association between parents’ and children’s wealth in the United States can be attributed to children’s educational attainment. This issue may become even more relevant in the future as wealth gaps in educational attainment are increasing, while wealth inequalities are on the rise in most Western countries .

               https://academic.oup.com/esr/article/38/1/18/6335766

               NZ data easily shows parental income makes a difference as decile systems are based on the parental income of students at a particular school.

               Decile 1-3 in year 11 for instance has an 85% NCEA attempt rate and a 79% success rate.

               Decile 4-7 91% attempt rate and a 86% success rate.

               Decile 8-10 88% attempt rate and a 91% success rate.

               I do not think there is any evidence that the teaching of a particular religion in a school has any influence on success.

               I don't think it has anything at all to do with teaching religion per se. And yeah most are integrated now having been initially set up in opposition to secular schools but losing their rolls as New Zealanders became less religious. Rather than close they sought government funding to help them out. Should never have been allowed.

               The initial impetus from the reformation for most schools being religious schools was the development of the printing press and the education of people to read the bible. Prior to this the reading and understanding of the bible was the privilege of Catholic priests for instance. Protestant schools also tended to educate women more than Catholic schools did so.

               We no longer need churches to run schools and it is seriously time we stopped teaching religion in schools. Sadly we seem to be going the other way. I'm also highly doubtful that teaching someone that god exists is out- performance. In the more extreme cases teaching alternatives to evolution such as creation science should simply not be allowed.
               • Belladonna …

                 26 November 2023 at 9:21 pm

                 I do not think there is any evidence that the teaching of a particular religion in a school has any influence on success.

                 I invite you to look at McAuley. Heavily non-white (Polynesian and Maori) – integrated Catholic school. Way out-performs its decile peers. Kids are getting the same results as peers 3 or 4 deciles higher.

                 https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/126520392/beating-the-stats-how-one-school-has-upturned-the-odds-for-mori-boys

                 This holds true at almost every decile level (until you get to decile 10) – kids at religious schools perform better academically, in comparison to their peers at equivalent decile state schools. This is not new. It's been happening for at least 2 decades. And shows no signs of changing.

                 You *could* argue that there is nothing about teaching religion which makes this happen. But, in that case, you'd need to find the other element which these schools have in common, which makes this work.

                 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/religious-schools-beat-private-and-state-schools-on-adjusted-ue-results/2UK6RBXSNOLLA6TYUMV7VWS2MI/

                 Archived version:

                 https://archive.ph/Bz4Il

                 Why should parents accept your philosophical opposition to religion in schools – when it is painfully evident that religious schools teach kids better (not just religion but academic topics as well).
                 • KJT …

                   26 November 2023 at 9:42 pm

                   The "other element" is well known.

                   Unlike State schools, religious schools can pick and choose their students.
                   • Belladonna …

                     26 November 2023 at 10:05 pm

                     If, by this you mean they can exclude students who blatantly and repeatedly break the school code of conduct, not to mention the law. Then, yes they can. And so can State schools. The 'rules' are the same for both of them with the MoE.

                     If, you mean, that they deliberately don't select kids who they think are problems. Then, no they can not. Their charter, approved by the MoE has a rigorous process for selection for admission. Student behaviour doesn't appear on it. Student places are allocated in preference order (e.g. first kids from feeder schools, then kids who are Catholic, etc.). At any point where there are more applicants in the preference category, than there are places – a ballot occurs.

                     IMO, the two elements which are factors in the achievement are: the ethics-based approach, integrating the special character into the whole school life; and the parental involvement: it requires parents to specifically choose to apply and send their kids to a special character school – these parents are, by definition, more engaged with their kids education, than the norm.
                   • Descendant Of Smith …

                     26 November 2023 at 11:22 pm

                     You've partly answered your own question.

                     "parental involvement: it requires parents to specifically choose to apply and send their kids to a special character school – these parents are, by definition, more engaged with their kids education, than the norm."

                     And having sat on the board of a low decile school I became acutely aware of the disparities in funding (especially compared to the high school I went to), the white flight, the pinching of our best students and athletes by other schools – often with job offers for the parents, the lack of parental involvement in schools and the inability to pay school fees and to buy equipment for sports, etc., the larger class sizes and so on.

                     And on teaching people that god exists – that is the very antithesis of educational merit. It should no longer have a place in any school. You can have ethics and not be religious.
               • Belladonna …

                 27 November 2023 at 8:53 am

                 And having sat on the board of a low decile school I became acutely aware of the disparities in funding (especially compared to the high school I went to), the white flight, the pinching of our best students and athletes by other schools – often with job offers for the parents, the lack of parental involvement in schools and the inability to pay school fees and to buy equipment for sports, etc., the larger class sizes and so on.

                 And, *none* of that is true for the state-integrated schools at the same decile level (apart, possibly, for parental involvement).

                 Do *try* to compare apples with apples. No one is arguing that the educational outcome of a decile 1-2 school is equivalent to a decile 9-10. We're looking at schools at the same decile level – and discussing why some get better educational outcomes than others. [I know, an approach which is utterly anathema to the MoE – who believe that the cookie-cutter approach is perfect, and all schools are exactly the same – despite ongoing counter evidence]

                 And these schools consistently out-perform their state peers.

                 Your personal preference for atheism, is fine and dandy, but other parents have the right to make other choices – especially when those choices result in a better educational outcome for their children.

                 You do realize that the state-integrated schools cost the country less than educating those kids in the state system?
                 • Descendant Of Smith …

                   27 November 2023 at 9:39 am

                   You do realize that the state-integrated schools cost the country less than educating those kids in the state system?

                   You mean cost the taxpayer less not the country. Their spend per pupil is usually significantly higher due to their other sources of funding.

                   Once upon a time they cost the taxpayer nothing.

                   And yeah by pinching the best students from low decile schools they lower the overall outcomes for those schools. I have workmates who do the catholic grandmother trick to get their kids into Catholic schools – encouraged by the priests in order to keep their rolls and funding up and to get around the limit of 10% non-Catholic students. The continual disparaging of state schools while at the same time marketing the better outcomes is self-perpetuating and cynical – designed to keep getting state funding. State schools such as Auckland Grammar do it as well – don't get me wrong. They just tended to pinch our athletes rather than our academics.
                   • Belladonna …

                     27 November 2023 at 1:01 pm

                     Their spend per pupil is usually significantly higher due to their other sources of funding

                     OK. Now time to provide some evidence for your reckons.

                     AFAICS – there is zero evidence that the cost per pupil for kids in state integrated schools is higher than for those in state schools.

                     Whereas there is tons of actual fact-based evidence that the state (i.e. your and my taxes) do not pay for any of the integrated school buildings or infrastructure – this is paid for by the 'proprietor' (usually the church, but sometimes another owner) – and charged back in school fees.

                     So parents pay more, but the taxpayer pays less. [NB: before you get up in arms about this excluding poor families, there is a very substantial scholarship program, paying fees for families who qualify for entry, but can't afford the school fees]

                     This works out to be a darned good deal for the taxpayers. Or haven't you seen the tidal wave of school rehabilitation projects awaiting funding in the state system.

                     Evidence, please, that integrated schools 'pinch the best students from low decile schools'.

                     Given that the vast majority of the integrated secondary school roll comes from feeder integrated primary schools – you seem to be envisaging some form of intelligence assessment operating at ECE level.

                     Perhaps it's just time to admit that the quality of schooling is better, and that it does make a difference.

                     I've explained, earlier in the thread, the selection criteria – academic achievement (or sporting prowess, for that matter) do not appear anywhere on it. And, I can flat out guarantee that if this was happening, parents whose kids had missed out on a place, would be getting the MoE to run an investigation.

                     I really think that the priests have better things to do – than to encourage Catholic grandmothers to shoehorn their grandchildren into integrated schools in order to keep the rolls up! Virtually every one of the schools has a long waiting list. Believe me, drumming up business is entirely unnecessary. Results count, when parents are choosing a school.

                     When you've come back with some evidence (I'll accept articles, no need for detailed statistical analysis) to support your reckons – I'm happy to continue the debate.

                     Oh, and "once upon a time" isn't really a very useful measure. Once upon a time, kids finished school at 12. And only the brightest and well-off ones went on to secondary school. I'm sure that this isn't a standard that you want to return to.
                   • Descendant Of Smith …

                     27 November 2023 at 3:45 pm

                     I don't know where you are and you don't know where I am but these things happen on a regular basis. The loss of these students who were often role models in our school have negative impacts on both teachers and students.

                     We never tried to stop them especially those that came with job offers for the parents. That obviously had a much better outcome for the whole family. I can't give details as it would break confidentiality.

                     There have been articles however on All Blacks and the discrepancy between the high school they started at vs the one they finished at as young talent was identified.

                     Saint Kents got boycotted by other schools.

                     "The perennial national championship private school contender has been shunned from Auckland's top competition after being the only one of 11 schools who refused to sign a document about rules and conduct regarding player poaching and welfare.

                     St Kentigern revealed a few weeks ago that they had taken on five boys on full scholarships, all of whom played for first XVs at schools outside the Auckland area.

                     Although there are no rules regarding how many students can be introduced from outside of Auckland, other schools felt St Kents' recruitment drive was a step too far, with the school also having recruited players in past years from opposing Auckland schools."

                     We lost both sport and good academic students – some with offers from multiple schools. Not just rugby either

                     Rugby is so bad though some schools were even going directly to the Pacific Islands to pinch players.

                     Plenty of articles on white flight.

                     "Communities would be far better off if everyone went to their local school and we had local pathways through to their local colleges. Communities would be much stronger and we'd far better off. Too many people don't go to their local schools for all sorts of reasons, white flight being one of them," he said."

                     "Lower decile schools are also hit by the double whammy of their better students going to higher decile schools."

                     https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/114067757/call-for-debate-on-white-flight-from-low-decile-schools

                     Maybe your school isn't pinching students but others definitely are. That and the marketing of integrated schools as better simply helps and encourages such drift.

                     And you miss the point about the Catholic grandmother – it is the way they get around the restriction of taking no more than 10% non-religious.
                   • Belladonna …

                     27 November 2023 at 5:22 pm

                     So your examples are: St Kents (a private school – not state integrated); and Auckland Grammar (a higher decile state school)

                     Still waiting for the examples of the state integrated schools 'poaching' students for either academic or sporting reasons.

                     Although, the initial point being made was academic success, not sporting achievement. And, rugby is no longer the ultimate pinnacle of sport for most high-schools.

                     White flight. Please tell me how McAuley – a low decile state integrated secondary school – with a predominantly Pacifica/Maori roll is an example of "white flight" This is the initial example I gave you – of a school which is delivering academic results for its students – well above its decile peers.

                     We certainly see 'white flight' within the state system. Either through balloting process for out of zone students, or parents (legitimately or otherwise) acquiring an in-zone address for the desired school.

                     I would argue that there is actually less of it within the integrated system – since many families who want this kind of education for their kids, are immigrants (and rarely 'white')

                     And, repeating for what appears to be the umpteenth time. State integrated schools perform better than state schools within the same decile. Giving examples showing disparities between deciles is a total straw-man argument.

                     Given that you haven't been able to find any data disproving the academic performance of the integrated schools, benchmarked against state schools in the same decile – it doesn't seem to be a 'marketing' issue in "marketing of integrated schools as better" – rather a simple reflection of reality.
                   • Descendant Of Smith …

                     27 November 2023 at 6:10 pm

                     I can't control what is reported in the media and you have been selective in just alluding to Auckland Grammar in that story.

                     We knew very well which schools our students were going to and it was mainly local integrated schools. In other cases one for instance went to Whanganui Collegiate but there is no news story about that.

                     Putting “parental choice” aside do you not think that teaching someone in a school that there is a god is in itself unethical?
             • Belladonna …

               26 November 2023 at 9:28 pm

               Aren't most "'religious' schools" part of the "state system" anyway? About two thirds of NZ schools with a religious affiliation are Catholic and so integrated into the state education system.

               Yes, they are state integrated special character schools (not just Catholic, but other religions as well). They teach the state curriculum, and also teach religious classes. They also perform at the top of the comparable decile level in just about every educational measure. This is an unpalatable fact for atheists.

               DoS's argument is that, in his philosophy, they should not exist.

               Dilworth has indeed been in the news – for historical sexual abuse cases. Horrific, and desperately sad for those involved. But historic, not current.
               There are plenty of other similar/comparable historic abuse cases involving teachers as state schools – so hardly an 'exceptional' circumstance.
               • Drowsy M. Kram …

                 27 November 2023 at 5:58 pm

                 This is an unpalatable fact for atheists.

                 Some atheists – I'm an atheist, and I don't find it unpalatable

                 But historic, not current.

                 Yes, Dilworth staff and members of the trust board have an unpalatable 44 million dollar incentive for their independent Christian school to be squeaky clean in the sexual abuse department, going forward.

                 https://www.dilworth.school.nz/student-safety/safety-at-dilworth
                 • Belladonna …

                   28 November 2023 at 5:07 pm

                   Yes indeed – it's unfortunate for the South Auckland boys sexually assaulted by Alosio Taimo – that the same remedy isn't available for them.

                   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/383123/auckland-school-rugby-coach-alosio-taimo-jailed-for-22-years-for-historical-sex-abuse
                   • Drowsy M. Kram …

                     28 November 2023 at 11:39 pm

                     Oh indeed – if you believe that money is a remedy in such cases.

                     It's possible that 44 million dollars would be an exceptional sum for many schools to stump up – McDonalds not so much.

                     During the nine-week trial, Crown prosecutor Jasper Rhodes argued Taimo sexually abused boys at his job at McDonald's where he worked as a manager, at a school where he later worked as a teacher aide and in his own home and car, amongst others.
       • Anne 6.1.5.2

         27 November 2023 at 10:10 am

         Maybe standards have dropped because the kids going to school these days are less educable than those of the past.

         I think you make a very good point there Peter @ 6.1.5. Too many children of today grow up in a much less stable environment – both within the home and beyond – than my generation. It is not conducive for giving them even the ability to learn.

         And of course it is going to get much worse now we have a tunnel-visioned government who can't see past simplistic solutions such as boot camps for the most vulnerable of all.
7. Corey 7

   25 November 2023 at 12:02 pm

   Hell yeah. Victory to the vapers. Labour were absolutely nanny state busy bodies on vaping, the week after they changed vaping laws they put us in that final months long lock down and it was impossible to get juice. Shocking Labour never banned disposables but glad the coalition will.

   The smoke-free legislation was mocked globally by fellow leftys, it was always gonna be repealed, the idea that adults born before a cut off date could buy cigarettes but adults born after couldn't was stupid and discriminative. You can't tell adults what to do.

   On the whole, I agree with about 25%,im neutral on about 50% and disagree vehemently with 25%

   I'm socially a libertarian and economically a keynesian universalist social democrat lefty, i despised the previous govt socially and constitutionally it had bizarrely illiberal authoritarian leanings around speech, free will and citizens private lives and was utterly uselessly piss poor on housing social democratic economic reforms because it was obsessed with post modernism.

   I already hate this lot economically and on housing and they seem just as obsessed with bizarre post modern culture wars (but in reverse) but I really don't fear this lot on free speech like I did ardern and hipkins mob of wet blanket authoritarians.
   • Anker 7.1

     26 November 2023 at 11:26 am

     100% Corey.
   • Craig H 7.2

     26 November 2023 at 3:04 pm

     As far as I can tell, the biggest problem legislating around free speech vs hate speech is where the line falls on something to the effect of "will nobody rid me of this priest". Directly requesting that someone specific assaults or murders "this priest" is covered by the Crimes Act as incitement, but it's not incitement to wish general ill on "this priest".

     It could of course be left to the invisible hand of the market – when that happens, we get boycotts whether cancel culture or something else. The occasional priest would be one of the costs of this approach.

     We could ban cancel culture, but that's an attack on free speech and freedom of association.
8. Bearded Git 8

   26 November 2023 at 9:34 am

   Great work Ad. That is a long and horrendous list that will take the country backwards in so many ways. I have tried to find a few positives in it and I actually support the following:

   1. The creation of a National Infrastructure body. Assuming this will have cross party input this needs to give considerably more emphasis to the provision of public transport and new urban bike trails and much less to the provision of roads.

   2. Stronger IRD tax audits. I was surprised to see this in there and doubt it will happen, but it should.

   3. Better funding for St. John and Plunket.

   4 The referendum on a 4-year parliament.

   The rest is just awful.
   • Mike the Lefty 8.1

     26 November 2023 at 6:17 pm

     Stronger audits on beneficiaries no doubt while the rich pricks with Cayman Islands Bank accounts will be ignored.
     • Bearded Git 8.1.1

       27 November 2023 at 10:09 am

       Probably true Lefty….just another Luxon anti "bottom feeder" policy dressed up as something else.
9. Mike the Lefty 9

   26 November 2023 at 2:16 pm

   I'm intrigued that in the linked item it is referred to as "The NZ First- National agreement", no mention of ACT. It's like ACT is merely votes in the house for supply, demand and confidence. I wonder how well this went down with Seymour?

   Also there seem to be a few policies that you can be sure Seymour didn't want: investment in public transport and one that Seymour definitely would have had nightmares about: moderate rises to the minimum wage.

   One could read into this that Seymour got well and truly scuppered by Peters in these negotiations. Of course Peters (give the devil his due) is a master at this and Seymour a dilettante.
   • Belladonna 9.1

     26 November 2023 at 9:54 pm

     I read this as: This is the National/NZF agreement. There is a comparable National/ACT agreement. All elements in both agreements are policies that all 3 parties can live with.
10. Robin The Goodfellow 10

    26 November 2023 at 4:30 pm

    Some stuff in there I really like, some stuff is a bit head scratching but overall I'm sure everyone would agree its much better than what we got from the previous six years
    • KJT 10.1

      26 November 2023 at 5:04 pm

      Dependable unconscious satire. Again!
      • Robin The Goodfellow 10.1.1

        26 November 2023 at 5:39 pm

        Here's your highlight of the last six years:

        https://www.prints.co.nz/mm5/graphics/00000001/2/10380_Weston_Frizzell_Aroha_Jacinda_Ardern.jpg

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