How the Right makes people believe lies

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1. Alanz 1

   15 July 2013 at 7:53 am

   “So, the Left has to do a better job of fighting on these issues.”

   – It would be really good to hear Labour make the argument and take the fight to the bastards in government.

   “politicians need to communicate the reality to the public better ”

   – Let’s hear Shearer speak about the working people’s plight … but let’s hope we won’t hear the pain in his communication for all the wrong reasons.
   • Tom Gould 1.1

     15 July 2013 at 8:51 am

     So you think that having Shearer run 1950s-style class war rhetoric about “working people’s plight” is the fix for the issues raised by Eddie? No wonder the left is in crisis and turning in on itself.
     • Lightly 1.1.1

       15 July 2013 at 9:52 am

       the Left is losing elections because working class people aren’t voting (or they’re voting National on cultural grounds based around misconceptions – see post), because they don’t feel the parties of the Left represent them. And, you know what, Labour hasn’t had anything to really offer them in decades since it gave up the economic argument.

       Yes, talking to the working and the poor would strike the media elite as weird, but there’s a hell of a lot of potential voters there
2. CnrJoe 2

   15 July 2013 at 8:08 am

   Ed – do u mind if I lift some excerpts from this post to compile a letter to our local Gisborne Herald – which is a bit of a cheerleader for our local munificence A.Tolley?
   in particular –

   People think 24% of benefit money is obtained fraudulently, when it’s actually 0.7%. how much per day do you think we pay per adult for the benefit system?

   You pay less than a dollar for the right to a basic income in the event of unemployment.
   You pay only $2 a day for the right to a basic income in the event that sickness or permanent incapacity prevents you from working
   You pay another $2 a day so that you and your kids will have a basic income if you become a single parent and can’t work because you need to look after your children.
   And you pay just $9 a day to have a basic income for, on average, the last 16 years of your life.

   And that’s the ‘crushing burden’ of all those ‘bludgers’ that the Right has tricked us into believing in, which the Left has failed to fight back on.Rightwing politicians need to stop lying to people and whipping up false perceptions as a way of wedging working people against each other and against their class interests (note that all the misconceptions seek to turn working people into two groups: honest battlers and bludgers).

   But the Right ain’t going to do that because they need working people to vote against their class interests if they’re going to win and get on with the job of flogging the public wealth to the private elite.-
   these bits.

   [lprent: Fine by us. The only reason that we don’t explicitly relinquish copyright is because it allows a weapon against parasite sites who simply harvest content from other sites in their quest to attract advertising. But the material put up into the site is there to be used otherwise. ]
   • David H 2.1

     16 July 2013 at 8:56 am

     This should be posted in the comments section of ALL msm outlets that are covering this story and that have comments enabled and lets see how many actually allow the post.
3. KJT 3

   15 July 2013 at 9:21 am

   Lets face it, if National, and other right wing Governments, including 1984 Labour, were subject to truth in advertising laws, no one would ever vote for them.

   “We are going to cut your wages, drop the standard of living for the whole country, make the ill, unemployed and elderly live in as abject a state of poverty we can get away with, cut taxes for millionaires to spend on Hawaii holidays while increasing yours, borrow for election bribes, have a slower growth rate, and close more businesses than any left wing Government ever has, and cause recessions even when the rest of the world is in a growth phase”.

   Does not win votes.

   It must be very depressing to be a right wing apologist. Having to lie to deny the obvious.
   The more their prescriptions are applied the worse a country, and most of its people, does!

   “Lunacy is doing the same thing again and expecting a different result”.

   ANYWAY. Where are the strong denunciations from Labour of this latest piece of right wing evil.
   Have Labour so abandoned principal and reality that they are prepared to let this happen without a fight.
   • Colonial Viper 3.1

     15 July 2013 at 10:25 am

     Not sure where to even start on this piece. The facts of the piece are true of course, just as they would have been 10 years or 20 years ago.

     Yet instead of the Left creating an effective counter narrative backed by other organisations and authorities, political parties like Labour have essentially helped to create and sustain Right wing myths. Why else would you bring in tougher and tougher medical/work assessments for beneficiaries, talk about bludgers on roofs, force beneficiaries to prove that they are applying for any and all jobs no matter how unsuitable?

     This piece could therefore be just as easily titled

     “How the Right makes people believe lies while the Left abandoned its ideology, allies and media channels to fit in with those lies“
4. Sanctuary 4

   15 July 2013 at 9:53 am

   Yesterday on media watch veteran Australian journalist and media commentator kerry-Anne Evans was quoted as saying “…political journalism is now a hunt for a hint of weakness… …struggling for survival and relevance, we as a profession of political journalists and commentators have debased our craft to the lowest common denominator, writing articles confected out of barrel scrapings and hectoring, the public interest rarely exists…” She went on to point out how the line between opinion and journalism has become completely blurred. One of course immediately thinks of the Greek chorus of right wing shock-jock “journalists’ who get their talking points from propagandists like Slater and Farrar, or like Mike Hoskings have so debased their craft they think nothing of taking money from Sky city whilst plugging its interests in their media commentary and think nothing of boasting of being partisan friends of the prime minister, or of the recent behaviour of the completely out of control Paddy Gower.

   The media narrative in what is reported on isn’t just overwhelmingly right wing in bias; it is actively part of propagating the myths in order to boast ratings, generate controversy and manufacture the consent required for the witch hunts it will then lead to. Just as important is what isn’t reported. Today I heard mention in passing on RNZ that unemployment had risen in Auckland. This isn’t covered in the Herald’s online edition, certainly not on the front page at least. I will confidently predict none of the established TV stations will bother reporting this in their main 6pm infotainment bulletins. Of course the latest round of benefit cuts, couched as “the biggest reforms since the social security act of 1938” (funny how little detailed discussion there has been of them then) are covered, because they feed the narrative of a bludger class. Unemployment, the scourge of the poor and real reason for the despair of our beneficiary underclass, is not an issue because it challenges the ambient right wing shibboleths upon which much of the anger of the poorly informed and low information voter is based and that mis-informed populist anger is the straw that fuels the furnace of the modern media. The media would rather feed the siege mentality of the middle class with tales of their betters (the royal baby), the weather and the errant poor.

   We can talk about the causes of this media malaise all we like, but the real question is does the left have the balls to do anything about the increasingly mindless, emotion driven Fox-like drivel that now passes for media? What can be done?

   Well, as a student of history I think the past can be instructive in telling us how this can be done. I once read a good way to tell the middle class from the working class is you’ll never hear the working class whining that it isn’t fair. The left needs to stop whining the media isn’t fair and understand they’ll never get an even break from such a toxic right wing media environment. Where amnesia and knee jerk emotionalism is the default and when arrogant bully’s like Duncan Garner and Mike Hoskings believe they can do whatever they like and get away with it because they and their ilk control the medium the values of the left will never get a fair hearing. So stop whining that the media “isn’t fair”. Rightists like Murdoch have deliberately shaped the media to serve their agenda. If the left wants the media to serve its agenda, then it needs to change its ambient culture, it needs to re-shape the media to tell its stories and repeat its narratives. The First Labour government understood this. It understood the media was a front in a permanent propaganda war with capitalism. Every editorial in every so-called independent newspaper in this country stridently campaigned against Labour in 1935. Labour in government didn’t bother pandering to those newspaper editors. They didn’t court the Gowers and the Garners and Espiners. Instead, they created their own media and went over the head of the newspapers to get their message out. They created the national Film Unit and made sure it told their story. They promoted radio, and made sure that it told their message. In short, they took on the Murdoch’s of the 1930s, not placated them. And they won. “So what? history smish-tory” I hear you say!

   But! But what if an incoming left wing government were to promise a new “Kiwi share” in telecommunications, one where anyone who asks can get free access to a broadband service that connects them automatically to a government portal, with free access to any .govt.nz website, “NZ Skype” and a government news service that tells the governments story? What if this left wing government were to sell TVNZ and use the money to triple Radio NZ’s budget, let RNZ use the parliamentary TV channel for public service broadcasts, and re-brand Kiwi FM and use that to compete with the ZB network, as a sort of BBC radio 1 – and make sure this new, powerful Radio NZ (effectively a new NZBC) to promote its message? What if this hypothetical left wing government were to set up a “NZ in Print”, just like NZ on Air, parted funded by the government and by a levy on the big media and telecommunications companies, to promote investigative journalism through grants? And what if, last but by no means least, this government were to restrict ownership of NZ media to 100% NZ owned companies which cannot control anymore that 25% of any market and which receive significant tax breaks if they are structured as non-profits (like the Guardian Trust)?

   The left needs to quite moaning about the media, and start doing something like what I have outlined about it.
   • Colonial Viper 4.1

     15 July 2013 at 10:31 am

     Now you’re talking.
   • Rosetinted 4.2

     15 July 2013 at 10:36 am

     Unemployment, the scourge of the poor and real reason for the despair of our beneficiary underclass, is not an issue [in the media] because it challenges the ambient right wing shibboleths upon which much of the anger of the poorly informed and low information voter is based and that mis-informed populist anger is the straw that fuels the furnace of the modern media.

     Quoted from Sanctuary above.

     This is true comment. And the mis-informed populist anger is a blanket thrown over the truth to prevent its reality being seen and felt. I remember the comments of some man slagging off the unemployed as bludgers, then a bit of shame-faced understanding when he was laid off and for a while unemployed. Then back to superiority – he found another job and the bludgers remained unemployed which proved all his negative comments about them. ‘I did it (get a job), so why can’t you’ is a simple query such people put, with the ready answer of a simple put-down.

     And as for Labour and its ability to get its point over. Kay Brereton was making a spirited attack on these swingeing and egregious measures being used against beneficiaries, but in doing so didn’t include in the soundbite piece anything about the few jobs available, and the pay below living wages, and the costs of travel.

     One of my relatives was supporting her husband dying slowly of cancer and unable to work though not bed-ridden, and was forced to do work in a rural area and spent more on petrol one day than she earned. One day she travelled to work to find that there was none, because everything was too wet from a heavy overnight rain. Reality bites you in the bum when you’re in difficulties in NZ and not in the high income bracket where they can ride above being affected by such compelling demands.
     • handle 4.2.1

       15 July 2013 at 10:47 am

       Brereton on Radio New Zealand this morning also failed to provide any facts to back up her argument. Spreading those around has to be part of a unified progressive resistance.

       “You pay less than $1 each day for the right to a basic income if you become unemployed.

       You pay only $2 a day for the right to a basic income if sickness or permanent incapacity prevents you from working.

       You pay another $2 a day so you and your kids have a basic income if you become a single parent and can’t work because you need to look after your children.

       And you pay just $9 a day to have a basic income for, on average, the last 16 years of your life.”
   • Watching 4.3

     15 July 2013 at 11:20 am

     and a government news service that tells the governments story?
     &
     government were to set up a “NZ in Print”

     I have worked in some countries whereby the government has done this. The people treat the new stories similar to a teenager listening to their parents – like teenagers they switch off.
     In the long term we have a democracy system not a one party state, and eventually an incoming right wing government will have this all set up for them.
     • Colonial Viper 4.3.1

       15 July 2013 at 11:26 am

       It has to be an independent non-commercial entity held to the highest journalistic standards, and with its own guaranteed funding sources. It cannot be a “Pravda” or similar.
       • Gosman 4.3.1.1

         15 July 2013 at 7:49 pm

         Pray tell how you can guarantee a funding source?
     • Sanctuary 4.3.2

       15 July 2013 at 11:49 am

       First of all, BBC Radio One owns the airwaves in the UK so you’ve got no idea, really.

       Secondly, funding wise that is easy. Pass laws that include massive financial penalties if any future government changes the funding formula in the next thirty five years.

       See what I did there?
       • Colonial Viper 4.3.2.1

         15 July 2013 at 12:07 pm

         You can’t lock the actions of a future government up in that way, it has to be smarter than that. Not sure if you are serious, but those laws would simply not be enforced or alternatively be repealed, by an unfriendly government.
       • Gosman 4.3.2.2

         15 July 2013 at 7:51 pm

         Why wouldn’t a Government that changes the funding formula change the financial penalties at the same time?
   • Pete 4.4

     15 July 2013 at 2:12 pm

     But! But what if an incoming left wing government were to promise a new “Kiwi share” in telecommunications

     Speaking of that, I was at Nethui last week, and Amy Adams announced a review of the Kiwi Share, heavily hinting that free local calls are on the chopping block:

     The current TSO does not allow Telecom to use the most cost-effective and modern technology to provide TSO services, effectively locking in copper and potentially delaying the availability of cheaper and more innovative services.

     The TSO arrangements – particularly free local calling combined with a relatively high monthly rental charge – may have slowed the progress and uptake of newer services. We may be seeing higher prices, less innovation and fewer new products compared with other countries that do not have these settings.

     Source
   • tracey 4.5

     15 July 2013 at 3:32 pm

     Please stop making sense
   • tracey 4.6

     15 July 2013 at 3:32 pm

     Please stop making sense
   • unicus 4.7

     15 July 2013 at 9:36 pm

     Organising direct action against a socially destructive influence such as New Zealand’s foreign owned media is feasible but complex . Many countries which have tied to establish genuinely free media have struggled – although there is no reason to suggest that with imaginative strategic planning it couldn’t be achieved here .

     A simple and immediate strategy could include public disclosure of just who the puppet masters controlling New Zealand’s media are . The loud mouth ‘media personalities ” are simply the end of an organisational chain reaching to the executive floor’s of New Zealand’s media companies.

     Lets identify for a start – who the major shareholders are the editors , the producers , the sub-editors , the board chairs and governance clusters who drive political policy –

     It cant be that hard – its time to name and shame !
     • Colonial Viper 4.7.1

       15 July 2013 at 11:05 pm

       Lets identify for a start – who the major shareholders are the editors , the producers , the sub-editors , the board chairs and governance clusters who drive political policy –

       It cant be that hard – its time to name and shame !

       This part is easy as it can be legislated for.
   • Don't worry be happy 4.8

     15 July 2013 at 11:03 pm

     +1…
5. geoff 5

   15 July 2013 at 10:19 am

   How the Right makes people believe lies?

   Money.
   • Santi 5.1

     15 July 2013 at 10:53 am

     How the Left makes people believe lies?

     Simple. More welfare benefits and handouts.
     • Colonial Viper 5.1.1

       15 July 2013 at 11:13 am

       Which is actually another lie. Labour has never undone the massively negative changes to benefit levels pushed through under Richardson.
     • One Anonymous Knucklehead 5.1.2

       15 July 2013 at 11:22 am

       Less welfare benefits and handouts, in fact. That’s actual reality rather than the deluded parrot between your ears, Santi.

       Assuming you’re ignorant and impressionable that is. The other alternative, of course, is that you have a twisted liar between your ears.

       Which is it?
     • muzza 5.1.3

       15 July 2013 at 11:50 am

       Santi, are you paid to push such nonsense, or are you thick, a liar, both, all three?
     • tracey 5.1.4

       15 July 2013 at 3:33 pm

       You didnt understand the opening post did you
     • North 5.1.5

       15 July 2013 at 9:24 pm

       Stupid Santi troll !
6. Santi 6

   15 July 2013 at 11:25 am

   Wake me up if they pass legislation requiring solo mums to support any further children they have whilst on the DPB themselves.
   • One Anonymous Knucklehead 6.1

     15 July 2013 at 11:27 am

     Wake me up if this gutless creep is ever prepared to own his lies.
   • Colonial Viper 6.2

     15 July 2013 at 11:30 am

     Wake me up when you start attacking corporations, PPPs and farmers receiving multi-million dollar social welfare handouts.
   • lprent 6.3

     15 July 2013 at 11:39 am

     Santi: As confused about reality as you usually are, this comment reaches a new low. It is a completely illogical statement bearing in mind the legal structures in this country.

     All parents are currently legally required to support children or the children will be removed from their care and put in the care of responsible adults. The source of income is irrelevant to that.

     You appear to have degenerated from a mere fool to a stupid fool while I’ve been on holiday. I trust it isn’t a symptom of untreated syphilis?
     • Sanctuary 6.3.1

       15 July 2013 at 11:51 am

       Ban stick for dicks.
     • Santi 6.3.2

       15 July 2013 at 11:56 am

       Thank you for your concern, dear lprent. Treatment going well.
   • Sable 6.4

     15 July 2013 at 11:52 am

     The Nats considered trying that on in the Shipley/Richardson days but they knew the public wouldn’t wear it. Don’t be surprised if chuckles has a go if he slithers back into office for a third term.
7. Sable 7

   15 July 2013 at 11:47 am

   I read this article too. Of course the far right are lairs, who would rightly put up with their bullshit otherwise. Just look at the arse-hat we are forced to endure and the sell out mainstream journo’s who kiss his ass as if its sugar coated.
8. red blooded 8

   15 July 2013 at 11:51 am

   Sanctuary, your suggestions for political propaganda tools may be interesting, but they are also somewhat frightening. When you insist that a left-wing government “re-shape the media to tell its stories and repeat its narratives” you seem to forget that more often than not, we have a right-wing government. “Oh,” I hear you cry, “but if we enacted my suggestions that wouldn’t continue to be the case!” Well, my answer to that is:
   1) Any government with that level of control over communicating its message to people is by definition being given too much power, and power corrupts even those who begin with noble intentions, as they start to use it to entrench themselves and their values. There’s a difference between propaganda and information, and your suggestions smell more like the first than the second.
   2) Even if it was desirable (it isn’t), you seem to assume that the Left actually has the power to do these things (it doesn’t) and that the MSM would allow such structures to be established to be established without fighting back (they wouldn’t).
   3) An information war would ensue, with the non-government (right wing) media being seen as the “free” and “independent” voice of the people.
   4) Believe it or not, I think it is important to our democracy that we have media that does challenge the government’s story. Think about the role that Campbell Live has played in challenging what’s happening in ChCh, for example. (Oh, and by the way, that’s not a state broadcaster and is foreign-owned.)
   5) It’s interesting that you quote the BBC and The Guardian (the latter not publicly owned, by the way) as role models. Let’s remember that the majority of the British media is rabidly right-wing and consumerist. People basically choose their media outlet to match their political and social views. Is that really so different from here?

   Yes, give people access to information from government sources, but keep it free of commentary. Yes, give us decently funded state broadcasting, but don’t ask it to “promote its message”. The separation of state and media is as important as the separation of church and state. 1984 has been and gone. And yes, I accept that I haven’t given any nice, easy answers about how to change media culture, but “as a student of history” one might have expected you to know that state attempts to dominate the media seldom work (especially in the age of the internet) and even if the original intentions are good, the outcomes for freedom of thought and the democratic ideal seldom are.
   • Colonial Viper 8.1

     15 July 2013 at 11:58 am

     The BBC ain’t no bastion of news media impartiality.

     I noticed them running every single Pentagon talking point ad nauseam pre-Iraq War, they gave the banksters an easy run at the peak of the GFC, and currently they are letting crucial aspects of the GCHQ spying revelations slide in favour of focussing on Snowden’s asylum troubles.
     • Sable 8.1.1

       15 July 2013 at 12:04 pm

       Agreed, they are as bad as the rest. Reuters are not impartial either. Hard to find an honest journalist these days.
       • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1

         15 July 2013 at 12:33 pm

         journalists and their sources know for a certainty now that they are being spied upon. Much easier and more profitable to repeat establishment talking points than challenge them and risk angering your sponsors.
         • Populuxe1 8.1.1.1.1

           15 July 2013 at 12:44 pm

           Riiiiiiiiight.. So how did the Guardian end up interviewing Snowden again? Big Bruver must be slipping. Gosh, I wonder how all those Wikileaks leaks and Tory sex scandals keep getting published?
           • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.1.1

             15 July 2013 at 4:22 pm

             If you have a point somewhere in that mess, please feel free to make it.
             • Populuxe1 …

               15 July 2013 at 4:28 pm

               Simply that for the willing servant of the rich right, the MSM still seems to manage to bite the hand that feeds it on a regualr basis. Is that enough spoonfeeding for you?
               • Matthew Whitehead …

                 16 July 2013 at 5:59 pm

                 You really think that because the media has small spats with the government (mostly on issues that directly effect the media…) within its incredibly conservative narrative that they’re too hostile to be in collusion in any form? That’s a bit of a laugh.
       • Mike S 8.1.1.2

         17 July 2013 at 10:41 pm

         Reuters and associated press give us nearly all of our international news stories between them. Both organisations are owned by one family.

         In other words, pretty much all of our mainstream international news comes from just one source, a privately owned, for profit organisation that has it’s own agenda. Hard to believe there would be no bias, or deliberate agenda, or manipulation, etc..
   • Sable 8.2

     15 July 2013 at 11:59 am

     Agreed but that’s is in reality what we have anyway. News reporting in this country is considered “weak” by international standards and has been co opted by far right political interests. Going back to the 1980’s I remember my dad used to call the Evening Post “the Tory times”. Simply looking at the loaded language used by these sites today its easy to see there is little objectivity in their reporting. That’s why I no longer bother with the mainstream media, I’m tired of being lied to.
9. Populuxe1 9

   15 July 2013 at 12:05 pm

   It wasn’t a study, it was an open panel lecture – quite a different thing and almost entirely supposition
   http://www.kcl.ac.uk/sspp/kpi/events/eventrecords/Perception.aspx
   • karol 9.1

     15 July 2013 at 12:11 pm

     From Eddy’s link in the post to a “UK study”:

     A new survey for the Royal Statistical Society and King’s College London shows public opinion is repeatedly off the mark on issues including crime, benefit fraud and immigration.

     The research, carried out by Ipsos Mori from a phone survey of 1,015 people aged 16 to 75, lists ten misconceptions held by the British public. Among the biggest misconceptions are:

     I’ve never heard a “phone survey” being described as a “panel lecture” before.
     • Populuxe1 9.1.1

       15 July 2013 at 12:29 pm

       A phone survey, presented as a public lecture and not yet, as far as I can tell, published – still not a “study” in any scientific sense. It’s a poll conducted by a PR firm FFS.
       • felix 9.1.1.1

         15 July 2013 at 12:47 pm

         Who commissioned the research?
       • karol 9.1.1.2

         15 July 2013 at 12:47 pm

         Well, it’s certainly more than the “panel lecture” that you attempted to downgrade it to.

         It was conducted FOR the Royal Statistics Society and Kings College London.. So, again, you are trying to downgrade its status to being just a PR thing.

         About the Royal Statistics society:

         The Royal Statistical Society (RSS) is one of the world’s most distinguished and renowned statistical societies. It is both a learned society for statistics and a professional body for statisticians.

         It is not unusual for preliminary findings of research (or a study) to be presented at a conference. It still can be referred to as a study, albeit one that hasn’t fully been written up as yet in a publication.
         • karol 9.1.1.2.1

           15 July 2013 at 12:48 pm

           Edit: Link that didn’t work:

           http://www.rssenews.org.uk/2013/07/rss-commission-new-research-into-public-perceptions-of-statistics/
           • karol 9.1.1.2.1.1

             15 July 2013 at 12:51 pm

             PS: at the bottom of the last raw link, there’s a link to a 30 page written report on the research, entitiled “Ipsos MORI Perils of PerceptionTopline Results
             Fieldwork: 14th – 18th June 2013 “
           • Populuxe1 9.1.1.2.1.2

             15 July 2013 at 1:03 pm

             Well that’s lovely and nice but until I see a peer reviewed paper with verifiable evidence this is presumably just some notes jotted down by a jobbing journo sent along by the Independant and therefore about as genuinely useful for making an informed argument as udders on a bull. I also note your link quite clearly uses the word “survey” repeatedly and doesn’t mention any intention to publish. I quote: “A new survey by Ipsos MORI for the Royal Statistical Society and King’s College London…” “The findings of the research are being presented at an RSS event, ‘The Perils of Perception’, which is being held at Kings College London today (9 July 2013).”
             A phone survey is no more a study than a phone poll is a PhD – it is just raw and highly subjective data (lest we must raise the spectre of political polls being statistically innacurate because young and poor people don’t have landlines, or somesuch).
             • felix …

               15 July 2013 at 2:49 pm

               Do you have a definition of “study” handy?

               Are you sure it’s the same one others are using?
             • karol …

               15 July 2013 at 3:20 pm

               Actually, I referred you to the pdf file, linked to at the bottom of this page:

               http://www.rssenews.org.uk/2013/07/rss-commission-new-research-into-public-perceptions-of-statistics/
               While you keep referring to the sources providing the least amount of info on the research.

               that pdf file contains 30 pages of raw stats that were gathered by the phone poll.

               yes, phone polls are skewed data, can you show us any better research on this topic that discredits this data?

               The pdf file, with the RSS & Kings College London logos at the top is entitiled, “Ipsos MORI Perils of Perception Topline Results
               Fieldwork: 14th – 18th June 2013 ”

               It begins with this statement:

               Ipsos MORI interviewed a representative sample of 1,015 adults aged 16-75 across Great Britain. Interviews were conducted online 14th – 18h June 2013. Data are weighted to match the profile of the population.

               Where percentages do not sum to 100 this may be due to computer rounding, the exclusion of “don’t know” categories, or multiple answers. An asterisk (*) denotes any value of less than half a per cent. Data are based on all adults unless otherwise stated.

               Feel free to critique the actual data, pop, rather than just resort to very skewed statements about the inadequacy of phone polls.

               And, it looks to me like research in progress. I’m pretty sure a College wouldn’t support it if there was not a publication as the end result.
               • Populuxe1 …

                 15 July 2013 at 4:31 pm

                 Yes, raw data, unanalysed and uncontextualised.
                 • Pascal's bookie …

                   15 July 2013 at 6:52 pm

                   So what more needs to be done Pop?

                   What’s your actual problem with this study?

                   It’s a pretty simple design, but so what? It’s looking at a pretty simple question.

                   “Do people’s opinions about various political hot topics correspond to reality?”

                   How would you go about answering that?

                   These guys chose some questions that had factual answers.

                   Polled those questions using a scientific poll from a reputable MR (not PR) company, and compared the results of that polling to the actual answers to the questions.

                   If you want to know what people think the answers to a question is, you need to poll to find out. But the poll isn’t the study, it’s data to be compared with the actual answers to the questions.

                   And when you are studying what peoples opinions are, then you are looking for people’s subjective opinions. What those opinions are, however, is not subjective. It is fact, revealed by polling.
                 • karol …

                   15 July 2013 at 6:59 pm

                   But it is still looking like a “study” to me, which is your original point that I was responding to, pop. It is referred to in various places as “research” and the pdf of data, calls it “fieldwork”, which indicates that it is a step in a research project, or “study”.
         • felix 9.1.1.2.2

           15 July 2013 at 12:50 pm

           I think it’s probably ok if we refer to Pop’s contribution not as a “comment” but rather as a “series of black marks”.
       • tracey 9.1.1.3

         15 July 2013 at 3:37 pm

         I thought you said it was a panel lecture…
         • Populuxe1 9.1.1.3.1

           15 July 2013 at 4:32 pm

           It was. Based on a phone poll.
10. tsmithfield 10

    15 July 2013 at 12:10 pm

    “How the Right makes people believe lies”

    ROFLMAO!!! If the right tells lies its because they have learnt from EXPERTS
    • framu 10.1

      15 July 2013 at 12:22 pm

      who? infratil? labour? pointing to an accusation via the media proves what exactly?

      couldnt you have gone straight to paintergate?
      • tsmithfield 10.1.1

        15 July 2013 at 12:25 pm

        You obviously didn’t read the concession from Parker in the article.

        Labour finance spokesperson David Parker, a former minister of energy, concedes power prices have gone up more in other countries than in New Zealand.
        • felix 10.1.1.1

          15 July 2013 at 12:44 pm

          I don’t give a fuck what Parker thinks. Power prices from hydro should not have risen at all.

          Ever.

          Unless it’s costing us more to fill the lakes there’s no realistic reason for the price to rise.
          • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.1

            15 July 2013 at 3:55 pm

            Labour wanted more money from power generation (regressive) instead of raising taxes on the rich. Which of course made the power generators a perfect target for privatisation during a Tory term.

            Its like there’s no strategic thinking going on.
        • framu 10.1.1.2

          15 July 2013 at 12:51 pm

          you obviously didnt make that your point

          or are people meant to read an entire news article and deduce the one sentence from it that stuck in your craw?

          but you know what – “ooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh, a politician said something that if i ignore vast mounds of evidence both in policy and outcome proves some vague point in my mind”. Well done champ
          • tsmithfield 10.1.1.2.1

            15 July 2013 at 1:04 pm

            From Eddie’s article above:

            The article quotes the author of the study as saying that politicians need to communicate the reality to the public better – which is basically academic code for Rightwing politicians need to stop lying to people and whipping up false perceptions as a way of wedging working people against each other and against their class interests…

            The article I pointed to shows Labour doing precisely which, the article from Eddie argues the right should stop doing. In the article I pointed to Labour has misled as follows:

            1. They omitted to include Australia in their data set, where power prices had risen faster.
            2. They failed to account for comparative exchange rates in their figures.

            The effect of this misinformation was to create a false impression. Parker basically conceded Labour was wrong on the points they had tried to make. There is no mention in the article of him attempting to refute either of the points above.

            So, the left should stop being so pious when they do precisely what they complain about of others.
            • framu 10.1.1.2.1.1

              15 July 2013 at 1:15 pm

              okely dokely – thanks for explaining yourself – shame you didnt do it sooner

              still a bit mystified as to why your using NZ labour as an example of “the left”
              • tsmithfield …

                15 July 2013 at 1:20 pm

                This whole left/right distinction is a false duality anyway.

                However, as I see it, Labour seems to like to see themselves as on the “left” side of the spectrum. So, if we are to hold the left/right bifurcation as fact, then it is reasonable to hold statements from Labour as from “the left”.
                • felix …

                  15 July 2013 at 2:47 pm

                  Labour are not on the left side of the spectrum and have not been for several decades.
                  • tsmithfield …

                    15 July 2013 at 3:16 pm

                    But it looks to me like they are trying to move further to the left judging by recent policy announcements.
                    • felix …

                      15 July 2013 at 3:41 pm

                      From your perspective I imagine it always looks as if everyone is moving further to the left.
                    • tsmithfield …

                      15 July 2013 at 4:01 pm

                      I guess that the problem in seeing a political group as a homogeneous blob. In the case of Labour, there are lots of factions that would each probably see themselves at different positions on the left/right continuum. I think this results in a rather fuzzy identity for Labour as a whole, which I suspect is where much of its problem lies.
                    • felix …

                      15 July 2013 at 11:26 pm

                      This “faction” talk is mostly rubbish, put about by idiots like Matthew “my only experience qualifying me to talk about politics is a decade and a half old” Hooton, and Cameron “the closest I’ve ever been to the labour party was the horrifying bedtime stories my dad told me as a child, quite recently” Slater.

                      They don’t know shit. They talk about things like “the rainbow faction” as if there’s a voting block split along lines of sexual orientation.

                      Just take a moment to think about how mental that sounds.

                      Of course there are always* allegiances within groups, but only the worst bigots and dullest imbeciles would assume they fall on racial, gender, or sexuality lines. I’ve heard Hooton and Tamihere talk about “the womens faction” ffs!

                      Yes boys, all teh gayz vote together, all teh maarees vote together, all teh wimminz vote together.

                      Idiocy and laziness from grey men who are still shocked and alarmed that a mainstream party includes gays and women.

                      *except for the Greens, who as Elves are immortal and beyond such short-term thinking
                • framu …

                  15 July 2013 at 3:16 pm

                  “This whole left/right distinction is a false duality anyway. ”

                  that i will agree with
            • tricledrown 10.1.1.2.1.2

              16 July 2013 at 10:44 am

              Tsm your propaganda is the reason this blog has been written the reason Australia,s power prices have risen more rapidly than NZ,s is because of carbon taxes state and government and their efforts to reduce dependency on coal as 80% of their power is generated by coal!
    • Draco T Bastard 10.2

      15 July 2013 at 2:26 pm

      No, it’s because they’re liars.
11. Draco T Bastard 11

    15 July 2013 at 3:23 pm

    How to play economic bait-ball

    The answer is they can’t. Fish aren’t stupid, they have brains, but they have nowhere the mental agility of dogs or primates. They rely almost entirely on instinct. So, when the bait-ball turns into a mass suicide feeding frenzy, their instinct tells them to … form a bait-ball! Every time I watch that clip it reminds me of something we see in humans, too. The inability to learn and adjust despite catastrophic consequences to ongoing behavior. You see it manifest in all kinds of self destructive actions, addiction, some relationships, etc. Below I’ll explain how, these days, it reminds me more and more of conservatives.
12. Bob 12

    15 July 2013 at 3:45 pm

    How Labour makes people believe lies with regards to the Sky City deal, Regulatory Impact Statement “4700 more individuals likely to be harmed by the additional pokie machines, 3600 more individuals likely to be harmed by the additional gaming tables”, media release from David Shearer today “As a direct result of this deal there will be 8000 extra problem gamblers”, hmmm, all of a sudden it has gone from a possible situation to the truth? Don’t fool yourselves into thinking that it is only the ‘Right’ that does this.
    How about Helen Kelly (not currently a politician, but a advocate for Unions and the ‘Left’), last week calling for strict drug testing in the Forestry industry to reduce forestry deaths, this week tweeting “Hey young peeps, no jobs, no apprtshps, youth rates, 90 day rule, boot camps & now drug testing. Bet u didn’t realize ur the problem!”, so within a week she is now against drug testing? Which is it? Pick a stance and stick to it, don’t sway which ever way allows you to have a moan about a ‘Right wing’ government!
    • Draco T Bastard 12.1

      15 July 2013 at 4:58 pm

      How Labour makes people believe lies with regards to the Sky City deal…

      You mean the research that the government finally got round to releasing?
      • Bob 12.1.1

        15 July 2013 at 6:35 pm

        That’s the one, followed swiftly by over exaggeration by David Shearer, just like the type this blog is trying to point solely at ‘Right wing’ politics.
        Of course I wouldn’t expect anyone here to see the irony of the timing, or the hypocracy of ignoring it and letting it slide while commenting on here about how bad it is when ‘Right wing’ politicians do it.
        • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.1

          15 July 2013 at 8:35 pm

          That’s the one, followed swiftly by over exaggeration by David Shearer

          [citation needed]

          The research said that the SkyCity deal would cause X amount more damage. Shearer said relayed that information. No more, no less.
          • Bob 12.1.1.1.1

            16 July 2013 at 10:03 am

            Read again, the reaserach said the SkyCity deal would ‘likely’ cause more damage, based on data extrapolated from the number of problem gamblers per pokie machine nationwide, multiplied by the number of pokie machines granted in this deal. That is like saying doubling the size of the largest McDonalds in Auckland central will increase obesity without looking at the number of fast food outlets nationwide as a seperate issue!
            David Shearer has then jumped on this information in a press release on Thursday 11th July stating that the extra problem gamblers is a firm number “there will be 8000 extra problem gamblers”, seems like a bit of a leap, or possibly trying ‘to win votes on vast exaggerations of reality’.
            • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.1.1.1

              16 July 2013 at 1:12 pm

              You’re twisting the words and using a poor analogy to make increasing the number of pokie machines sound alright without giving any evidence.

              David Shearer has then jumped on this information in a press release on Thursday 11th July stating that the extra problem gamblers is a firm number “there will be 8000 extra problem gamblers”, seems like a bit of a leap, or possibly trying ‘to win votes on vast exaggerations of reality’.

              Not an exaggeration at all as that’s what the report said.
13. QoT 13

    15 July 2013 at 7:55 pm

    I realise I’m late to this party, but

    The Right’s only winning in shaping public perceptions because the Left is too busy with the ‘easy’ stuff – identity politics

    Are you fucking kidding me? You want to step back, take a quick look at the shit that was flung at Louisa Wall, at Steve Chadwick, at Tim Barnett, the fucking man ban, and then maybe reconsider labelling identity politics as “the easy stuff”?
14. dumrse 14

    15 July 2013 at 8:03 pm

    I’m not sure Eddie expected to get as many posts as he has when the answer is as simple as … The Right see the glass as half full…..
    • North 14.1

      15 July 2013 at 9:44 pm

      Yeah, “their” glass……….with the full intent that it be fuller and fuller and never full enough at the cost of the “indolent” poor. Whom they abuse at every opportunity while still “appropriately” aping care and concern “for all New Zealanders”. And a bunch of anesthetised cargo-cult wannabees, snobs, lap it up. For now.

      They’re Ceaucescu the lot of them. There’s a lesson there………
      • blue leopard 14.1.1

        15 July 2013 at 10:07 pm

        North,

        …you might have to use smaller words and shorter sentences…dumrse has clearly fallen for the simplest propaganda….probably not very clever….
15. JonL 15

    15 July 2013 at 11:22 pm

    “Have Labour so abandoned principal and reality that they are prepared to let this happen without a fight.”
    If the past 10 yrs are anything to go by – yes!
16. vto 16

    16 July 2013 at 8:47 am

    Been bush and out of range …..

    Has Paula Bennett just required all people to enrol their children with a GP, all 3 year olds at a pre-school and all people, employed or otherwise, to undergo drug tests?

    And does John Key want to know what books we are reading at night and listen to all conversations we have with everybody all day every day?

    Sounds like the fucking gestapo.

    They should both go jump in a cesspit that is over their heads. I despise them with every sinew and cell in my body, and every person who supports these types of complete fascist extremist policies that the East German Stasi (or whatever the fuck those pigs were called) would be proud of.

    Well done Key and Bennett – now fuck off to hell.

Links to post

1. War on social security: demonisation of beneficiaries - The Standard: posted on 15 July 2013 at 7:57 am
2. The Daily Blog Watch Monday 15 July « The Daily Blog: posted on 16 July 2013 at 8:43 am

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