Key delusions

57 comments on “Key delusions ”

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1. Craig Glen viper 1

   28 March 2013 at 8:06 am

   Well as bad as the National carcass is and as useless as they are, Labours Leader is not making any in roads on Key and National. The auditor generals report is damming but Shearer just cant land a hit.

   What is clear is Labour MP’s have backed a lemon of a Leader and if he stays some of them are going to pay with their political careers. Good job to in my opinion.

   [Bunji: off-topic – warning. Plenty of posts to moan about Shearer, but this one’s about Key]
   • Saarbo 1.1

     28 March 2013 at 8:30 am

     Yes, this is the frustrating thing. National can do anything, lie, prospect in protected conservation estates, oppose mondayising holidays, sell strategic assets, the list goes on…………and the impact on the polls is nearly zero, perhaps a bit of volatility.

     Do the Labour party strategists/research outfits (UMR is it?) study why people dont trust switching their vote from National to Labour? Is it Shearer as leader? Is it Labour in-fighting? Is it the perceived lack of economic nous on the Left? Is it the potential coalition including greens/NZF? Is it the potential coalition including greens/NZF/Mana? Is it driven by a biased MSM (NZ Herald = National Party PR)? National have sold the story that NZ is not too bad off compared to the rest of the world despite 000’s of jobs lost to the economy?

     Buggered if I know.

     But Shearer as Leader cant be helping Labours cause…
     • BM 1.1.1

       28 March 2013 at 8:45 am

       People like John Key.
       My advice to Labour would be to can the personal attacks and just concentrate on selling policy ideas to the voters of NZ.

       Here’s the thing, if I liked someone and you walked up and told me he/she’s a complete wanker and he/she’s evil and you’re an idiot for liking that person, what do you think my reaction would be.

       1. Ohh?, wow you’re correct how could I be so dumb

       or

       2. Who the fuck do you think you are, go shove that bullshit up your arse!!!

       Shearer shouldn’t be running Key down, if anything he should be a bit more matey matey, present another option to Key but do it without the negativity.
       Being negative is a complete turn off, people hate it.
       • MoiMoi 1.1.1.1

         28 March 2013 at 8:48 am

         They may can dishing out personal attacks when John Key desists from personal attacks on Shearer and other Labout MPs and actually starts answering the damn questions.
         • Blue 1.1.1.1.1

           28 March 2013 at 9:19 am

           What personal attacks? Like letting Shearer away with the $500,000 of stashed money he lied about?
           • karol 1.1.1.1.1.1

             28 March 2013 at 9:31 am

             Like saying his crony Fletcher is smarter than Grant Robertson, in response to questions about Key having appointed his long time mate Fletcher to the position of chief spy (GCSB director).
             • UpandComer …

               28 March 2013 at 11:50 pm

               A crony because his mum might have had cups of tea with his mum? Fletcher obviously ‘is’ a lot smarter then Robertson, and me, and dare I say you. Look at his CV, it’s mightily impressive, and he seems like an excellent person for the job.
           • Matthew 1.1.1.1.1.2

             28 March 2013 at 9:32 am

             like “His brother was brighter than Grant Robertson”. Thats completely uncalled for. I hear better taunts in the schoolyard.
             He let Shearer off the forgotten bank account because he knows full well he is in way deeper than Shearer on the lying/forgetting/not answering questions front.
           • Murray Olsen 1.1.1.1.1.3

             28 March 2013 at 6:54 pm

             How did Shearer lie about any money, and how do you know how much it was?
       • Chris73 1.1.1.2

         28 March 2013 at 8:56 am

         I agree, I’d also add the infighting is a bad look as well. They can’t run their own party how are they expected to run the country with the greens or winston/first

         Is it driven by a biased MSM (NZ Herald = National Party PR)?

         – Thats a really tired excuse trotted out by the left whenever theres some stories that the left don’t like. What they don’t appear to acknowledge is the left-wing bias in the papers and tv (sort of blinkers on if you like)
       • The Al1en 1.1.1.3

         28 March 2013 at 8:57 am

         “if I liked someone and you walked up and told me he/she’s a complete wanker and he/she’s evil and you’re an idiot for liking that person, what do you think my reaction would be.”

         Surely your response should depend on whether the person was telling the truth, which would make option two more an accurate stereotype of many nat voters.

         “Being negative is a complete turn off, people hate it.”

         I’m sure that’s not true at all. Sounds like a nat party written, 3news exclusive, nonsense.
       • rosy 1.1.1.4

         28 March 2013 at 9:20 am

         I don’t think I can take this – I have to agree with a righty again. There’s no point in Labour going for the hate Key line.

         The Smarmy git is not horrible – some people really like smarmy – makes them feel happy. Labour is right to go for the *hmm* contradictions, but leave off saying how nasty Key is, even though it is true (imo).

         Go for policy and lies, and answer the personal attacks if needs be, that’s all.
         • DH 1.1.1.4.1

           28 March 2013 at 9:30 am

           “I don’t think I can take this – I have to agree with a righty again. There’s no point in Labour going for the hate Key line. ”

           Yup, me too Rosy. IMO it’s what cost Labour the election and what will cost them the next election if they don’t STFU about Key.

           It seems very much a Labour thing, Greens don’t show the same rabid obsession with Key they just get on with it.
           • BM 1.1.1.4.1.1

             28 March 2013 at 9:42 am

             It’s probably a bit late now.
             But what Shearer should be doing is doing what Key did.
             Try to build up a rapport with the voters, be seen as that “nice” Mr Shearer.

             That way when the election rolls around, if both contenders are seen as good sorts, the personality side of the equation goes out the window and then it comes down to who’s got the best policy.

             Unfortunately for Dave he’s had some shocking advice, because of all the finger pointing and mud slinging, people have gone completely off him, now he just looks like a another negative labour leader, a rerun of the Goff years.
             Nothing to offer except negativity.
             • Bunji …

               28 March 2013 at 9:48 am

               What you’re forgetting is that Key had loads of attacks on Helen/Labour, he wasn’t all positiveness and light.

               It probably didn’t seem negative to you because you agreed with it…
               • BM …

                 28 March 2013 at 9:59 am

                 Big difference was that Helen and Labours star was really on the wane.
                 Key was just tapping into the public mood.

                 I don’t see that same level of discontent, Shearer would do so much better if he laid off the personal attacks and just concentrated on demonstrating that he does have the ability to lead the country.

                 It’s about 100-0 to Key at the moment, work on what you’re good at.
                 • felix …

                   28 March 2013 at 12:39 pm

                   Leave John Key aloooooooone!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D6bx8j4d-Y
                   • LynWiper …

                     29 March 2013 at 7:35 am

                     🙂
       • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.5

         28 March 2013 at 11:46 am

         I’d expect option 3: – They’d ask for the evidence

         Your two options only allow for people to respond emotionally and irrationally.
       • felix 1.1.1.6

         28 March 2013 at 11:53 am

         “Here’s the thing, if I liked someone and you walked up and told me he/she’s a complete wanker and he/she’s evil and you’re an idiot for liking that person, what do you think my reaction would be.”

         But that only happens in your mind, BM. No-one says he’s evil (and I’ve asked you and others for references to this many, many times and you’ve never been able to provide one.) You’re arguing against your own strawman.

         Calling Key out on a blatant, provable, documented lie is not a “personal attack”. So really the question should be if you like someone, and I gave you documented proof that they lied to you on a regular basis, what would your reaction be?

         “Being negative is a complete turn off, people hate it.”

         So quit it. And thanks for the concern, but seeing as how Key is literally the only reason National is in power, I don’t think anyone with honest motives would be calling for his opponents to go easy on him and let him get away with lying.
       • Arfamo 1.1.1.7

         28 March 2013 at 9:30 pm

         “People like John Key.” My impression is people don’t really like John Key (the honeymoon is over, they see him as flippant and a deal-maker who could be selling us some really bad deals). They don’t trust him, no longer see him as a successful businessman with an understanding of how to run an economy, but they much prefer him to Shearer who they think is the only other serious option, but who is a bumbling idiot with no idea of any alternative economic programme and who would probably do more damage than Key. Folk think they have to choose between a shyster who can bullshit well or an idiot who can’t even manage that.
         • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.7.1

           28 March 2013 at 9:33 pm

           You’re being too harsh, just give the man another six…uh never mind.
           • Arfamo 1.1.1.7.1.1

             28 March 2013 at 9:51 pm

             I have a circle of sports fan acquaintances that includes quite a few very well-heeled businesspeople. They talk politics without rancour – just out of interest over some beers. Two years ago, John Key, as far as most of them were concerned, was just what we needed after 3 terms of Helengrad as they loved to call it. Today we were having a general chat about National and the Key administration. Most of them now think he doesn’t have a plan. He just thinks making deals is the job, or at least, that’s the only part of the job he really wants and the only way he does things. Two of them are accountants and one’s a banker. They think he put the economy into double dip recession with the tax cuts and increase in GST because consumption apparently immediately took a dive. The banker reckoned all the problems we have could be fixed overnight by reversing the tax cuts. I nearly fell off my seat. Somehow I doubt that’s a general view in those professions, but one can hope. But, the thing is, none of them thought Shearer would be anything but a disaster. A couple said they might vote Labour anyway but they figured they’d be wasted.
     • Blue 1.1.2

       28 March 2013 at 9:17 am

       ” and the impact on the polls is nearly zero,” did it ever occur to you that the majority, either don’t mind, don’t care or these matters aren’t enough for people to change their vote? Even if people are 80% opposed to asset sales it clearly isn’t enough to change their intended vote. If Labour want traction, they perhaps need to focus on issues that people care about and come up with something the public overwhelmingly agree with (and there are quite a few issues). Even the Election platform of “no asset sales” wasn’t enough to convince a sufficient number of voters. Voters don’t want ideology, they want the Government to make the majority of New Zealands life better. Most voters are intelligent enough to balance all the pros and cons and vote for the party that has the least negative impact on them and their familes, in their opinion.
   • Craig Glen viper 1.2

     28 March 2013 at 2:56 pm

     Oh sorry Bunji should have spelt it out a bit more. Key will continue to live in a deluded world because he has not had his arse handed to him by the opposition. The longer this goes on the longer the polls will tell him he’s fine nothing can harm him. Auditor General says things are dodgy who cares this wont last long in the media he thinks, a few smart arse response’s and a few verbal jibes at a weak opposition and its time to continue wheeling and dealing right up to the next election. So the way things are going Key can look forward to the election as he stands a very good chance of getting three more years.
     Hope thats more to your liking Bunji.
2. Matthew 2

   28 March 2013 at 9:08 am

   The AG needs to come out & say ‘this report does not vindicate John Key and if he thinks it does he is reading it wrong’. Our public servants are gutless.
   • Chris73 2.1

     28 March 2013 at 10:08 am

     The AG needs to come out & say ‘this report does not vindicate John Key and if he thinks it does he is reading it wrong’. Our public servants are gutless.

     – I agree, to many politicians on both sides of the political spectrum get away with this type of shenanigans
3. ianmac 3

   28 March 2013 at 10:13 am

   Bryce Edwards in his Roundup 27 March, points to an essay on The Meaning of John Key. This is not a biographical writing but an analysis of the means used to to establish the “everyman” persona and the means by which every action taken must be within the framework of economics. It also analyses the means by which Key maintains his “authority” to be in control of the dialogue.
   He points to the latest issue of the New Zealand Journal of Media Studies which focuses on events in 2011. The freely available journal has interesting academic articles such as The Meaning of John Key
   Article: The Meaning of John Key
   Author: Vijay Devadas and Brett Nicholls
   http://www.nzmediastudies.org.nz/articles/Devadas_Nicholls_NZJMS_13_2_2012.pdf

   Hard going for non-academics like me but fascinating insight into machinations.
   • ianmac 3.1

     28 March 2013 at 10:16 am

     And perhaps every Left leaning supporter and every Labour MP should read it as knowing the machinations of Key-Government is to identify the means of attack.
     • DH 3.1.1

       28 March 2013 at 11:02 am

       “Article: The Meaning of John Key
       Author: Vijay Devadas and Brett Nicholls
       http://www.nzmediastudies.org.nz/articles/Devadas_Nicholls_NZJMS_13_2_2012.pdf

       Hard going for non-academics like me but fascinating insight into machinations.”

       Jeez, talk about obsessed! Key is no mystery man, he’s just a salesman and politics for some reason doesn’t attract too many of them. Walk into the corporate world of trade and you’ll find thousands of John Keys. Cunliffe is another salesman, ’bout the only one Labour has by the look of it. The rest of Labour are academics, lawyers, teachers, professional politicians…. none who have a clue how to handle the wit & easy charm of the good sales person. They come across as the ugly sisters when they keep slagging off Key.
       • ianmac 3.1.1.1

         28 March 2013 at 12:32 pm

         You clearly have not read the essay DH. If you think Mr Key as “just a salesman: you might benefit by digging a bit deeper. Being able to carry off the entire plan consistently suggests that Mr Key is a very clever (unscrupulous?) man. It also explains to me why the Key Team are confident enough to just laugh at any opposition including any enquiry from journalists.
         • DH 3.1.1.1.1

           28 March 2013 at 1:19 pm

           “You clearly have not read the essay DH. ”

           I read enough to think it a load of star-struck bollocks from people who live in a closet and watch too much TV. Bullshit he’s anything special, I’ve met hundreds of people like him in business. He’s clever enough but so are most people in business.

           He exhibits all the classic signs of the consumate salesman – easy charm, disarming body language, amiable character and an instinct for the deal. Business these days tend to go for beancounters to run the ship but if you look around you’ll still find plenty of Keys as CEOs & senior managers.

           One of the big recruitment people wrote a book on the eternal war between accounts & sales in the corporate world. It’s a good read and gives an insight into business that most people aren’t aware of. Key is human just like the rest of us, he’s just a product of the environment he worked and lived in.
           • Murray Olsen 3.1.1.1.1.1

             28 March 2013 at 7:05 pm

             I tend to agree with your analysis. Key is not an ideals person, he has no special skills except to present something calming to the gullible, to present the most filthy policies as common sense. He is a consummate salesman. He doesn’t need to believe in or even understand what he’s selling, he just needs to disarm the customers. The opposition need to be attacking what he’s selling and putting up alternatives, not attacking him. Once people see that he’s selling them snake oil, they’ll see that he’s crap for themselves.
             He is exactly the sort of person who is extremely dangerous in politics, medicine, or science; in fact anywhere where people expect honesty and ethics. When he crashes and burns it will be spectacular, but the damage will have been done.
             • DH …

               28 March 2013 at 8:39 pm

               Yep. Was in sales myself for longer than I care to remember and saw Key for what he was almost from the begiinning. Can recall thinking it was about time the country had a sales person in charge, we’ve never had one as PM before. He had good credentials but doesn’t seem to have done the same ethics classes I learnt, he acts like a dodgy insurance or real estate salesman on commission. Snake oil indeed!

               Labour make all the mistakes I made as a young salesman when first encountering the competition and their experienced sales staff out in the marketplace. First instinct is to run them down to the customers in order to puff yourself up but that always backfires, a golden rule of selling you learn the hard way is don’t slag off your competition. That’s why Key just laughs at the opposition; he knows the rules of selling.
               • Raa …

                 29 March 2013 at 8:41 am

                 +1
           • Wairua 3.1.1.1.1.2

             29 March 2013 at 8:46 am

             http://www.kcapital-us.com/neil/downloads/ending_war_between_sales_marketing.pdf
           • Wairua 3.1.1.1.1.3

             29 March 2013 at 9:20 am

             “One of the big recruitment people wrote a book on the eternal war between accounts & sales in the corporate world.”

             Can you give us a reference ?

             The closest I could find online were references to a war between sales and marketing such as

             http://www.kcapital-us.com/neil/…/ending_war_between_sales_marketing.pdf

             http://hbr.org/2006/07/ending-the-war-between-sales-and-marketing/ib

             http://www.amazon.com/Between-Marketing-OnPoint…/B000GIN436

             and

             http://www.slideshare.net/…/ending-war-between-sales-marketing

             .. although

             http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Account-based_marketing

             looks interesting.
             • DH …

               29 March 2013 at 10:41 am

               ““One of the big recruitment people wrote a book on the eternal war between accounts & sales in the corporate world.”

               Can you give us a reference ?”

               Been racking my brains & can’t for the life of me remember what the book title was, lent it to mate years ago & never saw it again. It was written by a guy who started one of the first big international recruitment firms, name is well known.

               It’s not so much a war as an endless fight for control of pretty much every large business. Sales & accounts have a fundamental difference in the way they see business and whoever is in charge determines the direction of the company. Sales want to spend money to make money, ie sell more, whereas accounts want to cut costs to make more profit. (Neither side is completely right, need to strike that balance between the two)

               Being in sales I have a philosophical dislike for accounts that borders on the pathological. They always wanted to cut my sales & marketing budget which of course would impact on my sales. When sales subsequently dropped the f*ckers would then want to cut the sales expenses further.
               • Wairua …

                 29 March 2013 at 11:26 am

                 Manpower ?
                 • DH …

                   29 March 2013 at 12:30 pm

                   “Manpower ?”

                   No, keep thinking Drake but it wasn’t them. Was from that era though, tried Googling but got a mental block & can’t think of the right search terms.
             • Agora …

               29 March 2013 at 10:51 am

               DH, Murray, & ianmac:

               I think you all tackle different aspects of a valid point, which is that Key is not a professional sales person who understands the ethical limits of his or her role and works productively with accounts.

               He was an accountant who managed a trading floor and did whatever it took to bring in the deals during the excesses of an economic boom. He was the one they chose to sack the Sydney office.

               It says something about the people behind the National party who fast-tracked him to his current role.
               • DH …

                 29 March 2013 at 12:54 pm

                 He’s a pro Agora, that’s what I recognised. I read that he did time as a sales rep for Lane Walker Rudkin and some of that still shows. From what I read of his currency trading days much of his work was sales oriented – liasing with clients, wheeling & dealing etc. He’s no accountant, he leaves that stuff to English.

                 Ethics and selling are only loosely related unfortunately. It’s much easier to be successful in sales if you push the ethical boundaries. That’s why sales people have such a poor reputation in general, the ethics have to come from within and the temptation for many people is to go for the easy money. Commision-based selling is particularly prone there.

                 Key is a good salesman, much better than I ever was. I just have trouble understanding who he’s actually working for.
   • just saying 3.2

     28 March 2013 at 10:45 am

     Thanks for the link ianmac.
     Unfortunately, when I open the link the text is blurred and mostly unreadable.
     This happens with a number of links, particularly ‘scholarly’ ones, and I’ve always assume the blurring comes from the source, trying to protect copyright or something.
     Anyone esle have this problem, or know how to fix it?
     • BM 3.2.1

       28 March 2013 at 10:49 am

       Just download it, there seems to be some issue with font recognition in the online pdf viewer.
       Have noticed it on quite of few sites that use this pdf viewer.
     • freedom 3.2.2

       28 March 2013 at 11:07 am

       it looks fine, the on-line file and the downloaded version all completely readable and looking just as printed text should, maybe it is your peepers?

       or perhaps it is just the superior awesomeness of Ubuntu 😉
       • Draco T Bastard 3.2.2.1

         28 March 2013 at 12:01 pm

         Despite Ubuntu being awesome I can confirm that it’s good in Windows as well. I’d say that the problem is that just saying has opened it in the browser and the browser is having problems.
4. TheContrarian 4

   28 March 2013 at 11:43 am

   “which isn’t really possible with one day off”

   I was under the impression that it would be moved to Monday if it fell on a weekend. If Anzac Day is on A Wednesday then you only that day .
   • felix 4.1

     28 March 2013 at 12:36 pm

     Nope. Anzac day is on the 25th. When it falls on a weekday it’s a holiday.

     The proposal is that if the 25th falls on a Saturday or Sunday, then that day is still Anzac day but the Monday becomes a holiday.

     Just like Christmas. It’s really not as complex as John Key makes out.
     • TheContrarian 4.1.1

       28 March 2013 at 12:50 pm

       Yeah that’s what I thought.
     • TheContrarian 4.1.2

       28 March 2013 at 12:51 pm

       I didn’t mean to say it would be moved, I meant that the Monday would only be a holiday if Anzac was on a weekend.

       And yeah keys reasoning was rather curious
       • Tom 4.1.2.1

         28 March 2013 at 12:55 pm

         Au contraire ! If you did not have Key playing the class clown, you would have a much lower level of boarding school humour.
         • Murray Olsen 4.1.2.1.1

           28 March 2013 at 7:07 pm

           He reminds me a hell of a lot of the grovelling bullies we had as prefects at boarding school. There seems to be something dark in the Kiwi psyche that likes them.
           • Raa 4.1.2.1.1.1

             29 March 2013 at 8:40 am

             +1
5. granted 5

   28 March 2013 at 5:45 pm

   I am ambivalent to “Mondayising” the holiday however employers will see it as an additional cost. Of course that can be challenged as it does not “happen very often”. So if it does not happen very often then why worry about it?

   The following argument in the article:-

   “NZ First MP Andrew Williams talked passionately about losing immediate family and how he’d spend time getting down country to go to dawn services with family on a 3-day weekend, which isn’t really possible with one day off. This was a much more realistic view of New Zealanders than the shallow image John Key apparently has of us.”

   Does the current bill fix this issue??? Surely Anzac Day will always be commemorated on the actual day so it is only going to result in a three day weekend on occasions – not all the time.
   • TheContrarian 5.1

     28 March 2013 at 6:57 pm

     “Does the current bill fix this issue??? Surely Anzac Day will always be commemorated on the actual day so it is only going to result in a three day weekend on occasions – not all the time.”

     That’s right – it’ll only be a three day weekend when Anzac falls on a weekend. Farrar has a post up at re moment detailing when these will occur
   • felix 5.2

     29 March 2013 at 1:13 pm

     Hi granted.

     Why do we have to pay wages for the 6th of June when it falls on a Tuesday?

     It hardly ever happens so why bother? People should just turn up to work regardless, it’s only once every few years.

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1. More Bullshit - The Standard: posted on 28 March 2013 at 9:32 pm

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