Labour’s GST and WFF policy announcement

Written By: - Date published: 2:06 pm, August 13th, 2023 - 168 comments
Categories: Carmel Sepuloni, chris hipkins, Economy, gst, labour, tax, uncategorized - Tags:

The news has now been confirmed.  Labour has announced that if re-elected it will take GST off fresh fruit and vegetables.  It will also increase working for families for about 160,000 families.

From Radio New Zealand:

Labour has confirmed its worst kept election promise – take GST off fresh and frozen fruit and vegetables.

It has also revealed it will increase Working for Families for about 160,000 families.

Leader Chris Hipkins has unveiled the package as part of Labour’s “10 point” plan to help New Zealanders with the cost of living, with two more left to announce through the campaign.

There would be no tax cuts or any wealth or capital gains tax under a Labour government, he reiterated, after ruling that out last month.

The 15 percent Goods and Service Tax would be removed from fruit and vegetables from next April, estimated to save households about $4.25 a week, based on an average spend of $32.50.

…

Labour would also boost the In-Work Tax Credit by $25 to $97.50 a week from April 2024, which social development spokesperson Carmel Sepuloni said would “deliver targeted meaningful cost of living support to around 160,000 low and medium-income working families”.

“We will also lift the Working for Families abatement threshold by more than $5000 to $50,000 from April 1st 2026, to ensure working families keep more when their pay increases or they pick up extra hours,” she said.

She said half of those getting Working for Families earned more than $40,000, and “with record wage growth fewer Kiwis have received Working for Families tax credits as their incomes have grown”.

“The combined impact of the $25 increases to the In-Work Tax Credit and lifting the abatement rate will see 175,000 households gaining $47 per week on average during the next term of government.”

Time will tell if the policies are popular.  As is clear from the figures the working for families adjustment will deliver considerably more for poorer families than the GST figures will.

No doubt some on the left will criticise the announcement for not going far enough.

But if there is a change in Government it is clear that none of this will happen.

168 comments on “Labour’s GST and WFF policy announcement ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. higherstandard 1
    13 August 2023 at 2:22 pm

    Labour is a [snip]

    [Removed as it offends a number of rules. Don’t spray meaningless lists that are unsubstantiated and walk away. This is a clear example of attempting to hijack the discussion. If you are going to make a comment address the post itself and make your comments relevant. First warning – MS]

    • SPC 1.1
      13 August 2023 at 3:04 pm

      A lot of claims that seem to be from different time periods added together without a single source to corroborate any of them.

  2. The Chairman 2
    13 August 2023 at 2:36 pm

    Robertson said the GST announcement and Working for Families Tax Credit changes are the centrepiece of Labour’s tax policy for the election.

    There are no changes to income tax levels and no introduction of new taxes such as a Wealth Tax or Capital Gains Tax, he said.

    “We have taken the decision that now is not the time for widespread changes to our tax system.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132734668/labour-to-cut-gst-on-fresh-and-frozen-fruit-and-vegetables-from-april

    Evidently, not much in it if you don't have young kids.

    In it for who?

    • SPC 2.1
      13 August 2023 at 3:09 pm

      WFF tax credits apply for parents with children up to age 18.

      They should have gone along with the Greens on rent control.

      (If they had determined on a two year rent freeze 2022-2024, they would probably be ahead of National in the polls. Rents went up $50 a week in the past year)

    • alwyn 2.2
      13 August 2023 at 5:21 pm

      I'm thoroughly in favour.

      We love fresh asparagus and now we will be able to eat it all the year round. Up till now we have only got it during the New Zealand growing season but now we will be able to eat the air-freight imported kind for the rest of the year.

      • SPC 2.2.1
        13 August 2023 at 6:01 pm

        I'm just hoping people buy more now GST free potatoes for their families – so I can get my preferred wedges at the on-line shop (pub style not first choice).

      • AB 2.2.2
        13 August 2023 at 6:16 pm

        Lovely to hear, Alwyn, that you will be basking in an even more decadent form of your accustomed luxury. Will you be wearing a silk dressing gown, perhaps with a string quartet tinkling through some trifling piece of Mozart's juvenilia to tickle your amusement at getting one over on the miserable peasants who might be grateful for such small mercies as this?

  3. Patricia Bremner 3
    13 August 2023 at 2:43 pm

    I did not give credence after "and 70% are not reported"

    How do you count unreported crimes?? waiting…. credibility counts, Higherstandard.

  4. Belladonna 4
    13 August 2023 at 2:45 pm

    And, it's also very clear now, that there is someone leaking Labour policy to Nicola Willis.

    • MickeyBoyle 4.1
      13 August 2023 at 2:53 pm

      On current polling many MPs will be out of a job in October. But surely they understand that leaking just makes that more of a certainty?.

      I know humans by nature are selfish, but leaking to National or the press is idiotic and will not have they desired outcome this person is hoping for.

      Unless that outcome is to destabilize the party in the hopes that your own personal ambitions can come to fruition?

      • Belladonna 4.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 3:06 pm

        I would say that the latter explanation is the most likely. Certainly the widespread leaking within National a few years ago, seemed ti be tied to lack of belief/loyalty to the leadership, and personal ambition.

        • Patricia Bremner 4.1.1.1
          13 August 2023 at 4:48 pm

          As the person? did not know the whole package, it was an earlier leaver? Seems possible imo

        • newsense 4.1.1.2
          13 August 2023 at 5:24 pm

          Or it’s an MBIE/Treasury civil servant.

          • Belladonna 4.1.1.2.1
            13 August 2023 at 5:47 pm

            Not really. They'd know that Labour was considering it (and that could have been the explanation for the earlier leak to Willis re wealth tax being investigated). But a MBIE/Treasury staffer wouldn't know whether Labour had decided to implement this one (almost certainly, several different policies have been investigated and costed)
            It pretty much has to be a member of caucus or a senior staff member in a cabinet office.

  5. gsays 5
    13 August 2023 at 2:50 pm

    More welfare for working people, says it all about the 'Labour' party.

    • SPC 5.1
      13 August 2023 at 3:18 pm

      Labour has always supported workers and families – Family Benefit (capitalisation for home purchase), the mortgage rebate for home ownership etc as well as income related (25%) rent for state houses.

      It'll take time for the FPA to have impact and gather a greater return to labour from economic proceeds.

      • gsays 5.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 3:54 pm

        It also takes time for the record migration levels to further negate any benefits from FPA…

        Labour only by name.

        • SPC 5.1.1.1
          13 August 2023 at 4:11 pm

          Whom else should they give welfare to if not working people?

          PS

          The only party opposing the migrant worker volume is NZF, one wonders if they might play that card – require any party they support to slow down the inflow (one of the issues Stuff and NZH as pro migrant worker media have against NZF).

          • gsays 5.1.1.1.1
            13 August 2023 at 6:10 pm

            How about working people not needing welfare?

            Radical, I know. It is within living memory.

            • Craig H 5.1.1.1.1.1
              13 August 2023 at 8:18 pm

              Migrants are usually only eligible for welfare if they hold a residence class visa. Exceptions are often made for emergencies like Covid, earthquakes etc. but there's no automatic entitlement for migrants on temporary visas.

            • Patricia Bremner 5.1.1.1.1.2
              13 August 2023 at 9:45 pm

              Actually Gsays we got "Family Benefit" ten shillings a week per child and a 30 year 3% Housing Loan " of $13400.00 in 1973, and I am 82 in Nov so when was this no welfare patch. So family welfare has had a long history. It is not a vote rabbit . It is family policy. Gradually Labour have reinstated workers rights, assistance such as free chemist meds, winter warmth and have tried to control excess by the wealthy stakeholders.

              • gsays …
                14 August 2023 at 12:32 pm

                Hi Patricia, while not quite your vintage yes I remember Family Benefit.

                The difference is back then often there was one wage coming in to the house, nowadays there are two or more jobs being worked, we have WFF plus Landlord subsidies Accommodation Supplement and whatever else I don't know about.

                As for the workers, I would contrast what you said With Minister Little fibbing, obfuscating and delaying around the nurses pay equity and wage negotiations, then Tinetti being obliged to offer more to teachers by the ERA.

                As I've said before, it's not Labour per se, it's their adherence to Neo-Liberalism that is holding them and us back from meaningful change. Witness the regressive GST only coming off Fruit and veges.

                Edit: This is not bagging them coz I am keen on Team Luxon, it’s coz a lifetime of voting Labour or left, I have been bitterly disappointed in this majority government and them squandering a wonderful opportunity to bring real change

              • gsays …
                14 August 2023 at 4:51 pm

                I would also belatedly add, because of the GST talk about fruit and veg, before the 'reforms' of the '80's, gardens were common place. My Dad had one, reluctantly.

                My generation (Gen X) dropped the ball in regards to gardens and semi food resilience. We willingly supported and empowered the supermarket duopoly because of having to work for longer for less and convenience.

            • Phillip ure 5.1.1.1.1.3
              14 August 2023 at 6:35 pm

              @ gsays..@ 5.1.1.1.1

              Aye..!

    • Ngungukai 5.2
      13 August 2023 at 9:16 pm

      Gsays~unfortunately the cost of living has got prohibitive here in NZ, our food distribution is mainly controlled by two companies Woolworths Australia and Foodstuffs NZ. Hence food prices here in NZ are very expensive vs other developed countries World Wide. Housing is also prohibitive and once many low income families have paid the rent their is very little funds left to cover food costs.

      • gsays 5.2.1
        14 August 2023 at 12:41 pm

        What you say is true, Ngungukai, but is only half the story.

        While costs are spiralling upwards, workers wages are still being left behind, so we are too busy either working, recovering from work, or tending to family needs to agitate, advocate or organise for change.

        Meanwhile the pollies ears are tuned into the lobbyists are meeting the wants of the well heeled clients.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 5.3
      14 August 2023 at 3:39 pm

      WFF isn't really welfare for working people – it is a subsidy to business which benefits by paying their workers less than they need to live on.

  6. Ed 6
    13 August 2023 at 3:48 pm

    Labour has been in thrall of neoliberal doctrine since 1984. It does not deserve the title labour as it has not represented the interests of the working class for a long time.

  7. Janice 7
    13 August 2023 at 4:11 pm

    Well that's it, for the first time in over sixty years I doubt that I will be voting this election. To mess up an easily administered tax system with exemptions shows how little Chippie knows of how business work. The cost of settling arguments and sorting out the administration will offset any benefits. I can't vote for Te Maori Pati because that appalling Elizabeth Kerekere will probably be there and the Greens are too airy fairy on how gender issues affect women.

    • Anne 7.1
      13 August 2023 at 4:39 pm

      I dunno.

      Jessica Mutch McKay, who I hardly imagine is dyed in the wool Labour, seems to think its a smart move:

      https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/08/03/jessica-mutch-mckay-gst-off-fruit-and-veg-is-clever-politics/#:~:text=Australia%20has%20a%20complex%20system,don't%20pay%20anything%20extra.

      Sure, there will be teething problems. There always is when big changes are made. And the Oppo will make out the population will be extinct by the end of the first year, but if Aussie can do it, why can't we?

      • MickeyBoyle 7.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 6:59 pm

        From her piece on the news tonight, she has changed her tune.

        • Anne 7.1.1.1
          13 August 2023 at 7:28 pm

          Of course she toned it down for public consumption. She would have been accused by the NActs of taking a non neutral stance or some such thing. Doesn't alter the fact she said it in an online opinion piece. No points there MickeyB.

      • Craig H 7.1.2
        13 August 2023 at 8:19 pm

        I don't like the policy from a policy perspective, but there's no denying that it's a popular policy with voters.

      • Ngungukai 7.1.3
        13 August 2023 at 9:18 pm

        There will not be any teething problems most developed countries world wide do not have GST on food products. All the software is available for food distributors.

    • newsense 7.2
      13 August 2023 at 5:28 pm

      Yawn.

      So with all your principles you say through the foreshore and seabed, Rogernomics, the turbulent Cunliffe leadership and any number of things and now a policy that puts $20 a month back into families pockets stops you voting Labour? A policy which exists in a considerable number of countries?

      You know the economists didn’t want to subsidise Lord of the Rings either? And that on polling it’s a popular policy across the board?

      Wait sixty years! The Black Budget, Wally Nash, etc etc

      Concern troll methinks. I’m concerned about a little bit of bureaucracy someone else will deal with and Simeon watsit will make out is the end of the world.

      • Anne 7.2.1
        13 August 2023 at 6:39 pm

        Talking of the turbulent Cunliffe leadership, it was Cunliffe who campaigned on a policy of 'GST off fruit and vegetables' in 2014 and was ridiculed by all and sundry. The first thing that came to my mind today was: I wonder what Cunliffe is thinking?

  8. Kat 8
    13 August 2023 at 4:20 pm

    The fresh fruit and vegetables kite could have a bumpy landing….

    GST removed from ALL food….would go down better.

    • mikesh 8.1
      13 August 2023 at 4:42 pm

      They are also aiming to remove GST from frozen fruit and vegetables. I just thought I'd mention it.

      • Patricia Bremner 8.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 4:54 pm

        Yes mikesh and there is a bigger bang for the frozen veg and fruit specials able to be stored.

      • alwyn 8.1.2
        13 August 2023 at 5:27 pm

        I see that Robertson was right earlier this year. IIRC he said that this ridiculous policy would make life easier for people who buy fresh beetroot but not for the average person who buys the canned kind.

        Chippie really should get back to his claimed roots and see how people on less than his half a million dollars per year live.

        • BruceE 8.1.2.1
          13 August 2023 at 6:22 pm

          Don't forget the working for families increase and the annual increases to benefits from 1 April each year – which you could imagine NACT being parsimonious on.

      • newsense 8.1.3
        13 August 2023 at 5:35 pm

        Bloody good. Buy in bulk and add a little to each stew or whatever, if you’re trying to avoid low season.

      • Mike the Lefty 8.1.4
        13 August 2023 at 5:37 pm

        I'm wondering if removing GST from FROZEN fruit and veges could be a bit problematic given that some (for example frozen chips) have preservative or other additives or are pre-cooked.

        I think the new policy will be more symbolic than really money saving, but it does put a bit of pressure back on National, who will have to think carefully about openly attacking a policy that will reduce food prices, even if only a little.

        Winston Peters will probably crow about Labour copying NZ First policy, or perhaps this is Labour trying to get onside with NZF now that they are polling over the 5% threshold?

    • Patricia Bremner 8.2
      13 August 2023 at 5:21 pm

      Hey Kat, we noticed the difference in our shop in Aus. Perhaps they will extend it as they afford it.

      • Kat 8.2.1
        13 August 2023 at 9:11 pm

        Not just extending but removing ALL GST from edibles would be a smart move, and affording it is not an issue…its selling the alternatives to the electorate which are the hard yards….

    • Ngungukai 8.3
      13 August 2023 at 9:19 pm

      The Removal of GST off Fresh Fruit & Vegetables has always been NZF Policy.

  9. Tabletennis 9
    13 August 2023 at 5:08 pm

    GST removed from fruit and vegies:

    It seems like a non checkable action.
    Today the apple cost 50 cent incl GST, tomorrow my apple is 50 cent without GST, ah but poor harvest, fewer apples received than ordered, etc etc. How to know eh, fruit and vegies varies from week to week anyway.

    Didn't I read there is a direct relationship between wage increases and rent increases. Seems like this will be another one, we'll pay the same, I only wish the difference went to the growers ……

    • Patricia Bremner 9.1
      13 August 2023 at 5:26 pm

      That is the defeatest position taken to change. Can't plan for "what ifs".

    • Ngungukai 9.2
      14 August 2023 at 6:25 am

      TT where are you getting your information from, generally Countdown try and make 100% mark up on fresh fruit and vegetables ie 50% Gross Profit, and Foodstuffs work on 80% mark up and 40% Gross Profit.

      So if Countdown are selling Royal Gala Apples for $5.99 per kg incl GST their sell price excl of GST would be $5.32 per kg. If Foodstuffs are selling Royal Gala's at say $5.40 per kg incl of GST the price would be $4.80 per kg excl of GST.

      Correct me if I am wrong I actually work in the Wholesale Fresh Fruit & Vegetable Trade here in Auckland, NZ ???

      • Phillip ure 9.2.1
        14 August 2023 at 6:42 pm

        Thank you for that insider info..

        That is a very useful nugget…

      • Tabletennis 9.2.2
        14 August 2023 at 6:44 pm

        Ngungukai- it is surprising that so many ppl believe that if the GST comes of vegies and fruit the consumer pays less.

        Vegies and fruit have a variable cost to the retailer/wholesaler, meaning those prices are not stable, or the same, from week to week when the retailer/wholesaler buys in.
        Supply (weather/demand) varies, so too does the exchange rates, as many vegies and fruit originate from China and other countries.
        Nor do fruit and vegies have a recommended retail price (RRP).

        IOW there is no way of knowing if you end up paying less or more, after the retailer’s mark-up on cost price or what the ‘market will beer’: in other words, the highest price that customers will pay.

        This is not a loaf of bread, of a certain brand, of which the price is, usually, stable. Such that you can calculate what it should cost excl. GST.
        Not so with fruit and vegies.

        • SPC 9.2.2.1
          14 August 2023 at 6:51 pm

          While fruit and veg pricing is more variable – regardless of that, there would be still be GST added on at the end. Unless it was not.

        • Ngungukai 9.2.2.2
          14 August 2023 at 8:11 pm

          TT you are 100% correct both Supermarket Chains will charge "prices which the market can bear", so if there is a glut of Royal Gala apples and the quality is starting to drop in the Coolstores, the price could drop to $1.99 per kg or even less if it is Choice GRADE fruit.

  10. Ad 10
    13 August 2023 at 5:23 pm

    Do they say how much income this will cost the government in tax income, and where they are going to make the savings to afford it?

    • Patricia Bremner 10.1
      13 August 2023 at 5:29 pm

      Yes apparently Covid allowance for Commercial rents? sure I heard that in the stand up.

    • newsense 10.2
      13 August 2023 at 5:33 pm

      Yep from the roads around Wanaka and other lifeboat electorates…a nice Robin Hood aspect there too.

  11. The Chairman 11
    13 August 2023 at 5:23 pm

    What about canned fruit and veggies? Why were they overlooked?

    • Blazer 11.1
      13 August 2023 at 5:28 pm

      How about milk and bread!

      • Gareth Wilson 11.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 5:33 pm

        Is brown rice covered? If not, why not?

        • mikesh 11.1.1.1
          13 August 2023 at 5:52 pm

          This would be a great policy for vegans if it included brown rice, and unprocessed nuts and seeds.

      • mikesh 11.1.2
        13 August 2023 at 5:50 pm

        Milk is neither fruit nor vegetable. Bread is processed wheat..

        • Blazer 11.1.2.1
          13 August 2023 at 6:33 pm

          No kidding!

          Milk and bread are staples,especially for low income families.

          Clearly the Govt can include or exclude whatever they…wish.

          • mikesh 11.1.2.1.1
            13 August 2023 at 9:32 pm

            Wholemeal bread is generally OK, but I wouldn't want to remove GST from white bread. However, even wholemeal is a mixture of wholemeal and white, so it's probably best to bake your own using only wholemeal flour. I do that sometimes, though not as often as I would like. I'm really a lazy SOB.

    • Patricia Bremner 11.2
      13 August 2023 at 5:33 pm

      Tinned fruit and Veg— Mostly they are processed and sugar or juice added.

    • SPC 11.3
      13 August 2023 at 5:48 pm

      Probably a sugar tax because of the addition of sugar/juice (drain and or water rinse for a healthier product)

      • Phillip ure 11.3.1
        14 August 2023 at 6:30 pm

        A sugar tax is a waste of time…and does s.f.a to address the obesity problem..

        The only approach that will work is to mandate maximum amounts of sugar allowed in any processed product..

        Debate on a sugar tax is grabbing the stick the wrong way around..and is just a not needed distraction..

        • SPC 11.3.1.1
          14 August 2023 at 6:45 pm

          I was trying to explain to The Chairman why the products were not included in the GST free food category. GST remaining is not a sugar tax per se.

          The issue of cheap foods is not just the amount of sugar, but also salt.

          Regulations should include both – and it's not just processed foods that get added sugar – sometimes fruit juice gets watered down and sugar added to make it cheaper. And then there is adding sugar to chocolate flavouring of milk – ironically I use a cheaper brand because it has less sugar than the up market one, which is sugar sodden.

    • newsense 11.4
      13 August 2023 at 5:52 pm

      Let’s take the tax off investment properties too!

      Or we can’t because we’re so busy playing BS David Seymour games about nuts and flowers?

      • mikesh 11.4.1
        13 August 2023 at 9:09 pm

        A case could be made for making rental income tax free: taxing rental income only pushes up rents. The poor old tenant pays the rent out of his tax paid income, and he then has to pay the landlord’s tax, which is built into the rent that he pays.

        • newsense 11.4.1.1
          14 August 2023 at 12:15 am

          I guess I was being a smart arse about the lack of outrage at robber baron untaxed capital gains made on property against the minutiae of this policy. If you include or don’t include figs doesn’t invalidate that a fresh salad at dinner and fresh fruit at breakfast and in a lunch box will now be cheaper.

          Our grandparents, while at times having it tough, had space – gardens and trees which meant they often had very good access to fresh produce. That’s not the case for everyone with infill housing 50 years old and density booming. We can’t go back in time, but we can help continue that legacy.

        • Blazer 11.4.1.2
          14 August 2023 at 10:34 am

          Are you serious?surprise

      • Ngungukai 11.4.2
        13 August 2023 at 9:23 pm

        Please elaborate what is ACT Party Policy on GST on Fresh Fruit & Vegetables.

    • Ngungukai 11.5
      14 August 2023 at 6:26 am

      Don't think they have been overlooked at this stage ?

  12. Blazer 12
    13 August 2023 at 5:27 pm

    Quick price comparison at Supermarkets in Sth Auckland today.

    Potatoes kg-$2.99-$3.99

    Bananas kg-$3.29-$3.79

    Avocado each-.99c-$1.90

    Cabbage 1/2-$2.69-$4.49

    Gala apple kg-$2.99-$3.99

    Very underwhelming…policy.

    • newsense 12.1
      13 August 2023 at 5:55 pm

      For someone who has a computer and an internet connection at home, yes sure.

      If you’re feeding a family of 3 or 4 or 5 on a benefit or minimum wage or after Auckland rents it’s a good addition to the free prescription policy that will help.

      Unless I’ve misunderstood your comment?

      • Blazer 12.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 6:20 pm

        My point is that price variations are usually way more than 15% atm.Budgeting will save you more.

        All you need is a cell phone.If you haven't got one its not viable.

    • Patricia Bremner 12.2
      13 August 2023 at 5:59 pm

      Two of us buy fortnightly, veg and fruit. * $68 so is * $10.20*gst

      4kg of potato/kumera red or orange. $12

      Zucchini 2or 3 cost $ 8

      Tomato 1kg $10

      Avocado bag 5 or 6 $ 6

      Pumpkin 6 to 800g $ 8

      Bunch of celery $ 6 or greens

      Soup veg assorted $ 5

      Kiwi fruit green $ 3

      Frozen veg 3 bags of assorted aprox $10

      I make veg soup, crustless quiche, pumpkin lasange, sides for mains and vegetarian dishes. Each fortnight I can now buy frozen berries for upside down cake, yay!! A treat.

      • weka 12.2.1
        13 August 2023 at 6:08 pm

        this is a good point, the policy may encourage more people to buy more fresh/frozen produce, which leads to better health.

        • Ngungukai 12.2.1.1
          13 August 2023 at 9:54 pm

          What about Mixed Grain and Sour Dough should GST be removed from those products.

      • Phillip ure 12.2.2
        15 August 2023 at 10:23 am

        Whilst a sole parent I found in general that the Asian supermarkets were the best to buy from..

        The rule of thumb was to never buy fruit/veg from duopoly…too expensive…

    • Ngungukai 12.3
      13 August 2023 at 9:23 pm

      Please elaborate non-comprehende ?

  13. mikesh 13
    13 August 2023 at 5:38 pm

    What about nuts and seeds, which are sold unprocessed but which can last a long time. Some are roasted and salted, but not all.

  14. newsense 14
    13 August 2023 at 5:43 pm

    What a miserable bunch! Hard to tell which are the concern trolls and which are the regular commenters.

    This is a great encouragement people to eat fresh. If the supermarkets, or the banks for that matter, are playing us for suckers we need to come down on them like a ton of bricks. Is being screwed over by virtual monopolists part of National’s view of NZ?

    This is a policy to help the lowest end. It’s a good popular Labour policy. The economists and Treasury would have prevented the Lord of the Rings and Avatar being filmed here. They’re a bunch of assumptions wrapped up in academic paper- not always applicable to a real situation.

    Families $20 better off a month with better health outcomes from better diets. Add that to the free prescriptions and you are seeing some proper Labour principles.

    Bloody good Chippy!

  15. newsense 15
    13 August 2023 at 6:03 pm

    And from last year 76.6% were in favour of it. I think there’s another more recent poll too, but I couldn’t find it.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/05/newshub-reid-research-poll-majority-of-kiwis-want-gst-removed-from-food.html

    • pat 15.1
      13 August 2023 at 6:21 pm

      "The move has proved widely popular with supporters across the political spectrum. A Talbot Mills poll found 66 per cent of 1296 survey respondents supported or strongly supported the policy.

      Eighty per cent of Labour supporters and 75 per cent of Green supporters were in favour, while 59 per cent of National supporters and 45 per cent of Act supporters also believed it was a good move."

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/labour-tax-policy-chris-hipkins-promises-to-remove-gst-off-fresh-and-frozen-fruit-and-vegetables/4PGQ2YJWDBA4PLJIOGEYUBTR3M/

      'Good politics' does not necessarily equal good policy.

      • mikesh 15.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 8:59 pm

        "Conventional wisdom" holds that a simple system which taxes everything is best, but "conventional wisdom" isn't always right.

        • newsense 15.1.1.1
          14 August 2023 at 12:01 am

          They’ll piss on us tell us it’s raining and the wealth will trickle down. That was mainstream economics. Remember that?

      • newsense 15.1.2
        14 August 2023 at 12:00 am

        That’s true.

        But good policy according to those who are criticising this was trickle down economics. It was no investing in films in NZ. And now good policy is apparently that, while accommodation and housing can increased by 100s of % over the years to handwringing, to fight inflation we need to have more unemployment.

        Well I’d rather be accused by the idealogues of poor policy and put $20 a month back to low families than correct the market and make a bunch of people unemployed to keep wages low.

        • Ngungukai 15.1.2.1
          14 August 2023 at 7:23 am

          Neoliberalism in the 1970'-1980's was going to be the Golden Bullet that saved us all, with the Free Market and Trickle Down Economics being the Ducks Nuts, well we all see how that played out with Instant Millionaires and Billionaires being created overnight, buying State Assets for a mere pittance and flogging the off to Offshore Corporate Interests.

  16. Chess Player 16
    13 August 2023 at 6:16 pm

    If Labour really thinks this is necessary, why haven't they just done this already?

    They've had unbridled power for 6 years – the first time anyone in govt has, since MMP came in.

    • Anne 16.1
      13 August 2023 at 8:55 pm

      There were a few other problems which needed attention first – like raising benefits etc. for the poorest in society and those who, for valid reasons, cannot work. Then there was setting up work schemes that actually work for those who needed work. Then along came a few tragedies that required attention and cost money to fix including a massacre by an offshore sadist (to put it politely) followed by a global pandemic that shut everything down for nearly two years. And finally a couple of cyclones that wreaked havoc up and down the country.

      Despite calls from the Oppo. parties for all these things to be sorted overnight it actually takes time and a hell of a lot of hard work – not to mention the associated billion plus dollar price tags that go with some of them.

      • Shanreagh 16.1.1
        14 August 2023 at 10:07 am

        Despite calls from the Oppo. parties for all these things to be sorted overnight it actually takes time and a hell of a lot of hard work – not to mention the associated billion plus dollar price tags that go with some of them.

        Agree Anne. Also not just with the Oppo parties, some on here have suddenly made gradual/gentle/measured into a dirty word called 'incrementalism'

        • Phillip ure 16.1.1.1
          15 August 2023 at 10:26 am

          'incrementalism' is a dirty word..

          It has got us where we are now..

          So just more of the same..?..y'reckon..?

          • Shanreagh 16.1.1.1.1
            15 August 2023 at 10:54 am

            Horses for courses.

            The whole premise of the rule of law and our democratic offices rests on reform as needed. This is mainly by additions to case law etc and new laws being enacted.

            In some instances we need to act urgently to get things through because of emergency or party policies.

            It is not a matter of choosing calmness or revolution. Both approaches are needed and both have a place.

            It is a point of wisdom to know which approach to use. The unwise limit themselves to one approach, in my opinion.

            • Phillip ure 16.1.1.1.1.1
              15 August 2023 at 1:41 pm

              Well ..we have been trying out incrementalism since 1980's…

              Maybe time to add a dollop of urgency..?… d'yareckon..?

    • Drowsy M. Kram 16.2
      13 August 2023 at 9:00 pm

      They've [Labour] had unbridled power for 6 years –

      Not for 6 years – checkmate smiley

    • mikesh 16.3
      13 August 2023 at 10:08 pm

      They were probably saving it for a "rainy day". And the polls would indicate that the "rainy day" has now arrived

    • Ngungukai 16.4
      14 August 2023 at 7:33 am

      Only the last 3 years Winston & NZF held them in check for the first 3 years in the 2017 Coalition Government.

    • mikesh 16.5
      14 August 2023 at 10:37 am

      They've had unbridled power for 6 years – the first time anyone in govt has, since MMP came in.

      I guess they don't play to a clock.

      • Phillip ure 16.5.1
        15 August 2023 at 10:30 am

        Oh..!..f.f.s..!

        That is the worst excuse ever for the chronic non-delivery of/from this labour majority gummint..

        It's up there with the ..we had a pandemic..and couldn't do anything else..one..

  17. pat 17
    13 August 2023 at 6:45 pm

    "Terry Baucher, a tax specialist, said policy advisers were “pretty much unanimous” in thinking that a comprehensive GST system shouldn’t be tinkered with.

    “When you read the officials’ analysis, they usually suggest it's better to give more targeted reliefs in the form of direct benefits rather than widespread initiatives,” he said.

    The second problem comes in ensuring that savings from the tax cut are actually passed through to consumers and not used to fatten the margins of retailers.

    Labour’s 2019 Tax Working Group looked at similar exemptions overseas and found consumers rarely received the full benefit."

    https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/123607/party%E2%80%99s-full-policy-includes-gst-exemption-boosted-tax-credits-working

    Ah…but the polls.

    • Patricia Bremner 17.1
      13 August 2023 at 7:12 pm

      They are doing both Pat.

      • pat 17.1.1
        13 August 2023 at 7:19 pm

        No they are not Patricia…the 'direct benefits' only cover those with children and below a very low threshold.

        They have sought the maximum voter appeal and to hell with logic.

        Fortunately despite the GST polling and focus groups it is unlikely to be implemented., as Robertson likely placates his position with.

    • gsays 17.2
      13 August 2023 at 7:20 pm

      Hang on, I got my laugh of the week the other day when Hipkins opined that he didn't do policy by polling.

      • alwyn 17.2.1
        13 August 2023 at 10:55 pm

        Did he really say that?

        Surely you must be making it up?

        • gsays 17.2.1.1
          14 August 2023 at 4:20 pm

          I was at my Mum's place when I heard it.

          It was a wee snippet on the TV news. Probably Prime because she likes to watch their weather and she thinks Eric Young is a bit of alright.wink

    • mikesh 17.3
      13 August 2023 at 9:20 pm

      “When you read the officials’ analysis, they usually suggest it's better to give more targeted reliefs in the form of direct benefits rather than widespread initiatives,” he said.

      Targeted benefits are not necessarily spent on fruit and veges. But making fruit and vegetables cheaper could encourage people to follow healthier diets.

    • Ngungukai 17.4
      13 August 2023 at 9:27 pm

      I smell Bullshit with the above comment.

    • mikesh 17.5
      13 August 2023 at 9:47 pm

      consumers rarely received the full benefit.

      Competition should ensure that customers are not overcharged. We should endeavor to ensure that supermarkets competed with one another. Buts that’s another issue.

  18. Phillip ure 18
    13 August 2023 at 7:23 pm

    This policy is ok for me…being vegan and all that..

    And I think most of the critics wouldn't be against the policy..

    (It’d be almost like being against motherhood..)

    They probably share my despair…that this is it..(!)..?

    This chump-change policy…giving chump change results..

    And those results delayed until April next year..(!)

    Labour seem to like a big dollop of delayed gratification with their incrementalist handouts…

    And this is hipkins big play..?

    His take on 'transformational'..?

    I think I will join the chorus of disbelief/dismay: in noting that ya hafta be fucken kidding me…

  19. Darien Fenton 19
    14 August 2023 at 3:30 am

    "Our cost of living package includes free doctor’s prescriptions, 20 hours free ECE for two year olds, free or half price public transport for children and young people – and now GST off fruit and vegetables and a $25 boost to Working for Families – and there’s more to come". Chris Hipkins.

    Just saying.

    • Shanreagh 19.1
      14 August 2023 at 9:33 am

      And all done without having to enact a wealth or CGT though with the possibility of further tax changes that don't involve CGT/wealth tax asa precursor etc.

      Hooray for for careful standard economic moves across several fronts even though some may involve/invoke the now dirty word of 'incrementalism'……..

      The story of the tortoise and the hare springs to mind

      What is the moral of the tortoise and the hare?

      'The hare is very confident of winning, so it stops during the race and falls asleep. The tortoise continues to move very slowly but without stopping and finally it wins the race. The moral lesson of the story is that you can be more successful by doing things slowly and steadily than by acting quickly and carelessly.

      https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/the-tortoise-and-the-hare#:~:text=The%20hare%20is%20very%20confident,by%20acting%20quickly%20and%20carelessly.

      • Shanreagh 19.1.1
        14 August 2023 at 10:04 am

        Adding to this. Perhaps these announcements look a bit like a Budget with tweaks.

        When all the financial announcements were made at the time of Covid I was very impressed with the reach and knowledge of Hon Robertson, in whose name they were all made, and who had a large hand in the work that went into them. The announcements seemed to cover every facet of our communities. I see the same hand in these announcements that Darien Fenton has noted. No big 'rah, rah' but altogether they will have an effect for the good across the whole country and particularly for those who are working & struggling.

        We need to see if this low key start can be maintained up to the election.

      • Patricia Bremner 19.1.2
        14 August 2023 at 10:07 am

        yes 100% incremental change is more likely to be bedded in. (exception Actangry)

        • weka 19.1.2.1
          14 August 2023 at 10:09 am

          Incremental change is killing the planet as we speak.

          • Patricia Bremner 19.1.2.1.1
            14 August 2023 at 1:12 pm

            We are up against huge money Weka, full of vested interest and lobbyists.
            Small steps on the people front.smiley

            The environment… in 2017 we wanted cameras on fishing boats… rolled out as soon as Nash left the role.

            Govt surveys to impress on Councils where their low lying land at risk of flooding lies.

            The promotion of Climate Change as real and Science based, not a Political football which can be picked up or dropped according to who is holding the power.

            None of the changes are quick enough, but 6 years or more of National would be disastrous for all.

    • weka 19.2
      14 August 2023 at 10:21 am

      Where did Hipkins say this? Please provide a source when quoting or copy and pasting.

    • Heather Grimwood 19.3
      14 August 2023 at 4:51 pm

      To Darien Fenton at 19:

      Indeed these facts must keep on being said! I guess that those who have no need to 'count their pennies' have no idea of the relief to those receiving these measures. One wonders whether their constant protestations are purely to create diversion and time-wasting diversions.

    • adam 19.4
      14 August 2023 at 6:44 pm

      whakapononga

      [you know better than to attack a TS author, but I would have banned you for saying this to any Labourite here. If you want to make a political argument, make it. If you want to abuse people or pick a fight, go somewhere else. One week ban – weka]

  20. newsense 20
    14 August 2023 at 10:49 am

    So apparently the main criticisms come from…the Taxpayers Union, the right wing NZ Initiative and sucking on a neoliberal tailpipe: Luke Malpass. Shock.

    Meanwhile, the policy is very popular amongst voters. What idiots imaging supermarkets can be regulated! That’ll never happen under National.

    https://thespinoff.substack.com/p/will-labour-choke-on-its-gst-free

    • Patricia Bremner 20.1
      14 August 2023 at 1:23 pm

      devil Yass!!! Malpass right over the divide. As for the other two Right Right and more to the right.

  21. newsense 21
    14 August 2023 at 10:54 am

    Oh, And Bernard Hickey points out what a prick you’d be if you complained about this tax change, but had not campaigned for a capital gains tax. It’d almost look like you were just a bunch of craven, paid off astroturfers, Luke!

    https://thekaka.substack.com/p/mondays-chorus-flattering-to-deceive?utm_medium=email

  22. Ffloyd 22
    14 August 2023 at 5:53 pm

    On Wallace Chapman s programme some commentors, apparently, have decided that because of the shouting down of the new policy advanced removing GST on fruit and veg by all the usual suspects and msm hystericals, that this proves it will be a good policy and they will be voting Labour. If the msm et al hate and decry it,this proves it’s worth to the Average NZer. Amen to that.

    • Phillip ure 22.1
      14 August 2023 at 7:06 pm

      Um..!…did you hear the results of their online poll..?

      69% against…31% in favour..

      And clearly hipkins et al have inflated an opinion on a minor topic..into a vote for labour..

      Is there a word for that..?

      Deluded doesn't quite nail it..

      • newsense 22.1.1
        14 August 2023 at 10:42 pm

        Online poll…

        • Phillip ure 22.1.1.1
          15 August 2023 at 10:37 am

          Yes..as I said..online poll…

          If you choose to just ignore that huge number opposing..(from a not right-wing radio audience..)

          That would be your mistake..

          • Incognito 22.1.1.1.1
            15 August 2023 at 10:58 am

            What ‘huge number’?

            You’re making up stuff.

            • Phillip ure 22.1.1.1.1.1
              15 August 2023 at 1:51 pm

              Nothing to link to…as I said..it was an online poll on the panel on rnz.. yesterday..

              And it was 69% against…and 31% in favour..

              And surely I wasn't the only one here who heard it..?

              (And I don't 'make stuff up'…in all my years of commenting here…not once..

              And incognito…Do you apologise for making such false accusations..?)

              [You quoted percentages (%), which are fractions or proportions of 100, not ‘numbers’ as such. For example, 69% of 100 people polled means 69 people, which is not a ‘huge number’. For the online poll to possibly mean anything else than just noise and fodder for the pundits to give their reckons on it should have included an absolute number that is standard with polls.

              The above is a simple misunderstanding that could be cleared up with a link to your source. However, weka has already asked you to link to the online poll and you refuse to provide a link, so I put you in Pre-Mod. You’ll have until tonight to provide a link and the number of people polled or you’ll be apologising to yourself for a week somewhere else – Incognito]

          • weka 22.1.1.1.2
            15 August 2023 at 11:12 am

            please link to the online poll so we know what you are referring to.

  23. adam 23
    14 August 2023 at 6:39 pm

    Scrapes from the masters table at best.

    At worst its' business as usual from the labour party – lose the election rather than lose control of the left.

    Well wage slaves what are you going to do?

    Sit by and let them?

  24. SPC 24
    14 August 2023 at 7:14 pm

    Deborah Russell says she now supports GST off food, as it includes frozen vegetables (sold all year around) and there was more fluctuation (weather events) – was wary as the big gains were off high priced items out of season.

    Robertson notes there is now a Groceries Commissioner to prevent any profit-taking by retailers.

    Others want non processed food staples included (milk, bread, meat, rice, nuts, etc).

    At some point this becomes a move to equity and public health policy (healthy food in schools), affordable healthy food. And food quality standards (and more than constraint on adding sugar and salt to foods).

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300949503/live-last-remaining-covid19-restrictions-removed

  25. newsense 25
    14 August 2023 at 10:51 pm

    The Herald is nervous.

    Despite ignoring the case for taxes to solve the housing market or the carbon market or the sharp increase in wealth inequality as the result of government interventions around Covid, it has now assembled 12 tax experts to bash the fruit and veges policy.

    Apparently it’s populist? Unlike the calls to revive the fictional Iron Maiden and the three strikes law etc.

    Is there no one in Labour, not necessarily too close to the leadership, who can do a bit of populist tub thumping? It’s all the right has been doing for months and look at the polls…

    The tax experts don’t care if you have a job, if you are paid fairly, if you’re missing out on handouts the millionaires are getting, if you can afford rent or mortgage payments, but they do care if your fruit and veges are a little cheaper. 12 of them, 20 of them, a whole astroturfed pressure group whose funders are secret! They want you to be unemployed to solve their problems. Let’s get rid of them instead.

    We’re in it for you.

  26. newsense 26
    15 August 2023 at 12:28 am

    Good news- National is going to abolish income tax until all fixed living costs, food, housing and medical bills are taken out! Are they f- , but watch who the hypocrites in the press are chasing…

    National has pledged to return the tax advantage, arguing it was a central premise of tax that you tax profit, not income.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/132681298/house-prices-to-rise-postelection-more-so-if-national-win-experts-say

    The rest of the article is how we get to vote for a screwed housing market or a completely screwed housing market. The returned tax advantage is to property investors of course.

  27. tsmithfield 27
    15 August 2023 at 9:18 am

    I think that removing GST from food as proposed by Labour is unlikely to make significant savings for consumers.

    The reason I have that view is that removing GST does nothing about the fundamentals that determine price. Fresh produce is very sensitive to supply and demand pressures. That is why prices for veges that are out of season tend to be much more expensive when out of season for example.

    What I think will happen is that prices will initially drop. Due to that pressure from the demand side of the equation will increase, and prices will rise accordingly. So, in my view, it won't take long for prices to rebound. Thus, I think the main beneficiaries of this policy will be producers and supermarkets.

    The same argument doesn't apply so much to frozen food. So, there may be more savings past on in that case.

    • SPC 27.1
      15 August 2023 at 9:42 am

      It makes little difference to the market fundamentals – season and weather (and supply and demand competition determine that).

      But on top of that remains GST, just as an Auckland 10 cent tax on petrol, or the nationwide petrol tax does – whatever the international market price.

      Whether in season produce or frozen.

  28. Blazer 28
    15 August 2023 at 11:10 am

    At the table…Winston to Chris H,'I'll see your removal of GST off fresh fruit andvegetables …and raise you….

    1. We will take GST off basic foods including fresh food, vegetables, meat, dairy, and fish.

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