National day of action against rape culture: 16 Nov (&15th)

197 comments on “National day of action against rape culture: 16 Nov (&15th) ”

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1. gobsmacked 1

   15 November 2013 at 12:09 pm

   Good luck to all involved. I’ll try and make the Auckland one.

   It’s important to keep the issue in the news. The media have short attention spans.
2. xtasy 2

   16 November 2013 at 2:40 am

   What a sad state of affairs that only one comment has been made on this topic and announcement. Is there perhaps a degree of shame and unpublished dissent?

   Well, to be honest, I do not think we have a wider issue as a “rape culture” and that is where this whole message may be missing the target and point. We have issues with apologists, with chauvinists, with selective groups of people denying that there are issues, and that deserves to be addressed.

   The concept of a “rape culture” is daring, I find inappropriate, as this implies a wider social issue. That there are statistics saying that only one percent of rape allegations are prosecuted, that is worrying indeed. I believe that there needs to be more attention put onto this, that the police and the public must get more sincere and committed, but at the same time, I know from experience with many people, that there also is a problem with disaffectionated partners laying blame on relationship breakdowns, and in some cases allegations of rape are made.

   This is NOT a clear cut area, I am afraid, it is very problematic. What is absolutely important is that there must be a culture change, that male and female citizens must be more respectful and honest with each other, and that the sexualisation of relationships is stopped.

   On the balance of things the responsibility may well be laid with the male persons, but I find it concerning, that this has become the only focus, leaving female partners as only the innocent victims.

   It is time to mature and take responsibility for all, and that includes all to not expose themselves to situations where alcohol and drugs influence behaviour in ways that can lead to illegal conduct. I find it bizarre that we blame drunk drivers for their irresponsible actions, but we have a total understanding for women to get drunk or drugged, and then expose themselves to wrong behaviour or abuse by risk taking males or same sex partners. Are they forced the alcohol or other drug down their throats I ask?

   That is where Willie Jackson and JT fell down, I understand, but I am starting to also understand how they were dealt with very harshly.

   Is there not one eye blind here, I ask? Is that perhaps not also why there has to this point only been one comment to this post?

   Surely the problem is serious and deserves utmost attention and scrutiny. I still believe that people should go and march today, but bear in mind also, that the whole issue is a wider social one, needing more attention and research than the useless mainstream media have offered.
   • miravox 2.1

     16 November 2013 at 2:59 am

     “What a sad state of affairs that only one comment has been made on this topic and announcement. Is there perhaps a degree of shame and unpublished dissent?”

     I guess you’ve been away, x. Comments here
     http://thestandard.org.nz/national-day-of-action-against-rape-culture-16-nov/
     on the original notice.

     “Surely the problem is serious and deserves utmost attention and scrutiny.”

     Also the hundreds of comments on the subject here
     http://thestandard.org.nz/will-jt-be-a-labour-mp/

     and here
     http://thestandard.org.nz/dont-wring-your-hands/

     If you’re interested in seeing what people really think.
     • xtasy 2.1.1

       16 November 2013 at 3:11 am

       miravox – I have certainly read those comments, or say many of them. My point is that it has taken a bit of a one sided interpretation of all. That is why I dare to challenge things, and it is at least good that you comment to my comment.

       If there is a widespread “rape culture” in NZ, why is it that 50 per cent of the population have not put this into the focus of the public much earlier then??? As I understand it about 50 per cent of the population are female, and if this is so widespread one would expect an outcry, sooner than later. That never occurred. This is raising questions in me and others.
       • miravox 2.1.1.1

         16 November 2013 at 3:24 am

         ” if this is so widespread one would expect an outcry”

         There are people who around who can point you toward sites that will explain this to you much better than I can. For me, it’s because in term of having a voice I feel alone, and uncertain about how my views and experiences would be taken in the real world. It’s about trying to live a life that is not in constant conflict with the people around me… most of the time. Weak, I know, but there it is.

         Things like this abuse gang are a kind of tipping point for people who feel a certain unease about rape culture can focus with those who are constantly fighting it. That’s just my opinion, for what it’s worth. Right about now I’m a bit wrung out with it all, so I’m not going to rehash what’s already been said.
         • xtasy 2.1.1.1.1

           16 November 2013 at 3:31 am

           You have before and now implied the system and police are biased against those affected and complaining.

           I dare to have a totally different view to that!

           Having had flatmates on and off, I had good ones and not so good ones. I had one incident, where without any reason, a young woman tried to lay allegations against me, for no reasons whatsoever, but to get back at me for other reasons (disagreed terms of flatting).

           Luckily I saw her off and she moved out sooner than expected, but to only dare and complain to police for something I never did! So all this ended up in some shit argument, where I had to present to the police the facts, that finally dealt to the matter, but it damned well taught me, to never fully trust any woman, no matter how “sincere” she may wish to appear!

           I am not alone in this, and my brother had a wife for ten years, who finally was somewhat dissatisfied with “sex life”, slept around, and then tried to claim rights after found out, saying he owed her this and that.

           It takes two to tango, and relationships are a minefield, so all this talk about a “rape culture” is far beyond of reason. It is bizarre NONSENSE, I must say.
           • weka 2.1.1.1.1.1

             16 November 2013 at 7:32 am

             xtasy, I’m sorry you have had personal negative experiences, but please don’t use those to try and deny the political nature of rape culture. Your personal experiences don’t trump the huge number of people that are experts in this field as well as the hundred of thousands of people worldwide who now have a solid political analysis of rape and misogyny.

             Women have been working on these issues actively for decades. The question is, why hasn’t mainstream NZ been listening?

             “I am not alone in this, and my brother had a wife for ten years, who finally was somewhat dissatisfied with “sex life”, slept around, and then tried to claim rights after found out, saying he owed her this and that.”

             You seem confused about what is sex and what is rape. The example of your sister in law is about sex. If you bring this into a conversation about rape, that’s rape culture. Rape and sex are not the same thing and they’re not on a continuum in the way you just implied.
             • weka …

               16 November 2013 at 7:44 am

               Have just posted here about finding a different way to respond to rape culture deniers

               http://thestandard.org.nz/national-day-of-action-against-rape-culture-16-nov-15th/#comment-728922
             • xtasy …

               16 November 2013 at 3:49 pm

               “I am not alone in this, and my brother had a wife for ten years, who finally was somewhat dissatisfied with “sex life”, slept around, and then tried to claim rights after found out, saying he owed her this and that.”

               I agree that that comment was probably not a good one to make, as it can be seen out of context. I also totally agree that rape in whatever form is unacceptable. At the same time, there are often relationship issues that cannot simply be blamed on one party alone.

               What has got me worried is that there is now talk of a “rape culture”, and that this is meant to be more widespread than it may really be.

               Due to various reasons I have not gone to the protest here in Auckland, and hearing on the news that 700 protestors marched up Queen Street and about 200 in Wellington only seems to confirm, that this is not a major concern to the wider public. This topic has been discussed over a week, been in all the mainstream media, even the protests were widely announced.

               If only welfare issues (to do with WINZ and new government policies) would ever get the same media attention, then perhaps some people would also protest against that.

               On this one, I feel that there is reason for concern, and it is good that some have taken to the street and made their points, but if this is a major social issue, I would have expected thousands to protest, after all that media coverage.
           • karol 2.1.1.1.1.2

             16 November 2013 at 10:14 am

             xtasy, I can imagine your response if, in reply to a post or comment on Paula Bennett/WINZ/Dr Bratt’s abuse and demonising of beneficiaries, someone gave an example of a person they know who rorted the benefit system.
             • xtasy …

               16 November 2013 at 3:53 pm

               karol – There are some people who are “rorting” the benefit system, and I know this and accept this, but they are a small number, and in some cases feel forced to bend the rules to survive.

               I get your message, but this topic has received large media attention, other than welfare issues ever have, but then to have 700 (maybe close to a thousand) march up Queen Street, that seems to indicate that despite the justified outcry about the “Roast Busters” (I cannot even hear that name anymore, as it sickens me) and stupid, irresponsible questions or comments by two radio hosts, there is not such a wider social issue as some seem to believe.

               I am waiting to be more convinced of the other.
         • AsleepWhileWalking 2.1.1.1.2

           16 November 2013 at 5:54 am

           @miravox
           +1, well said. We certainly have a pervasive rape culture in NZ.
       • locus 2.1.1.2

         16 November 2013 at 8:58 am

         Xtasy – bear with me on this: If your boss says he thinks one of his ‘powerful’ management colleagues is a really good bloke and one of the best managers in the company but you know he’s a bully – would you have the guts to tell your boss what you think? If you’re honest probably not….

         Now just imagine that most of the men in the office like this guy, and the situation is not bullying but that he got you in a quiet corner after and an office party – no witnesses – and raped you… who are you going to tell?

         Irrespective of whether you understand what is meant by ‘rape culture’ or your beliefs about the extent of denigration/mysogyny/misuse/abuse/rape of women and girls is in NZ – it would be absolutely no skin off your nose to fully support these very reasonable requests – right?

         * rape crisis centres adequately and sustainably funded.
         * educational programmes that focus on prevention and awareness.
         * police to put measures in place to allow for better support of survivors.
         * reinstatement of the Law Commission report into pre-trial and trial processes for sexual assault victims
         * pay some respect to the recommendations of two Rape Crisis centres
     • xtasy 2.1.2

       16 November 2013 at 3:23 am

       Has it failed your observation that amongst the Radio Live hosts Willie and John were about the only ones that had some “left” leaning interests and sympathies? I agree that JT has had issues and deserves to be criticised, but Willie has been good most the times. Both have been standing in for workers’ interests, the common folk, and the downtrodden, and I had exchanges with both that convinced me of their sincerity.

       Sadly both appear to be “socially conservative”, which in Labour is now a minority, and I do not feel that is bad.

       What gets up my nose is the tight knit new political correctness, and that excludes the many workers and potential voters for Labour or left leaning parties, that is being applied here. I myself favour more liberal and left views and positions than JT and Willie, but you must bear in mind that there are hundreds of thousands in South Auckland and other places, who would prefer their positions to those of other Labour politicians.

       While Willie and JT were wrong, foolish or whatever, it is stupid to shun them, lock them out, and treat them as total outcasts. I appeal to people to adopt some reason here. They never excused or promoted rape, far from it, they just tried to get a clearer picture on what happened.

       So I will stand my ground on this, and if you dislike it, good luck, and that is your view.
       • locus 2.1.2.1

         16 November 2013 at 8:35 am

         “While Willie and JT were wrong, foolish or whatever”

         I full agree Xtasy – they were wrong and they were foolish. ‘Whatever’ was in fact bullying and a particularly nasty streak of male boorishness. A feeble parody of ‘once were warriors’ mentality.

         W and JT’s views and behaviour were condemned by many men and women right across the political spectrum – trying to suggest we should ‘adopt reason’ and soften up on judging them for their boorish attitude because they’re staunch labour men is a failure to engage brain before mouth.

         As for the story of the on-line bragging of the two rapists – this was reported in newspapers around the world in amazement. Everywhere else in the world they would have been prosecuted long ago.

         But you can keep standing your ground mate…. There’s at least two others who are also completely uable to understand rape culture who’ve been commenting on TS who will join you in your corner.
3. xtasy 3

   16 November 2013 at 3:35 am

   I support Chris Trotter on this, as this whole issue has been blown totally out of proportions and is now a bizarre political agenda issue, led by some that always look for issues to deal out to men! Yes it is an extension of “gender warfare” now!
   • karol 3.1

     16 November 2013 at 8:40 am

     xtasy, you do very good work on issues of social security, from which I have learned a lot. On this I disagree with you.

     BTW, it’s quite usual for posts providing information about an upcoming event to have few comments under them.

     I have refrained from saying much about Trotter’s latest posts, because, yet again an important issue for women (and many men) is hijacked by some guys making it all about themselves. I don’t want to contribute to keeping those individuals at the centre of attention.

     Unfortunately rape culture is part of the history of the left as well as the right. Some very staunch male left campaigners have committed sexual assault and rape. It is no vindication to say they have been done great work for the left.

     I’m actually not sure that JT has been so great for the left. Talk-back generally is a minefield for women, dominated by men with a strong misogynist streak.

     I don’t know so much about WJ, but Tamihere has been more out there for working class and Maori men. He hasn’t shown as much support for low income women. Working class and Maori women also are raped and sexually assaulted, as well as being undermined daily by the misogyny in our culture.

     If WJ & JT were as sensitive to the concerns of low income women, they wouldn’t have treated the woman caller in the way they did. They would have been more sensitive to how victims of rape and sexual assault can be re-traumatised by the line of questioning they used: not just the woman caller, but listeners to the show who are rape victims.
4. weka 4

   16 November 2013 at 7:43 am

   This is interesting. After a fortnight of intense and varied discussion, on the day when women and their allies are going to march to end rape culture, here on ts we have a man ignorant of what rape culture is and in fact denies its existence, posting multiple times at the top of a thread about the national day of action. Personally, I’d prefer to not have this space used to go another round with a rape culture denier, and that instead we used today to focus on some of the proactive and useful things going on.

   Not for the first time in the past week I am wondering how The Hand Mirror and other feminist spaces would moderate and manage this. This isn’t a criticism of ts, just an observation of the difference between spaces that are safe and accommodating for women, and those that are less so.

   If anyone is interested, I’d like to have a conversation about how commenters can manage in this space. I’ve given one reply to xtasy, but I can see that this is pretty much going to be an exercise in banging my head against a brick wall. It’s not my job to educate this man. Was ok to do that with Trotter because some of his readers might learn something and someone in his position needed to be held accountable, but can’t see the point here today as we’ve been doing that for ten days already with individuals, and surely there is a limit?

   Is there another way to approach this?
   • miravox 4.1

     16 November 2013 at 8:13 am

     “I can see that this is pretty much going to be an exercise in banging my head against a brick wall”

     I doubt it will make any difference at all what you say . I linked to the other threads… he’s not interested, so that’s that imo – after writing the someone may link to another site with the basics for him, I realise even that would be a waste of time.
   • just saying 4.2

     16 November 2013 at 8:43 am

     It’s not an ideal analogy, by any means, but if this were a discussion about any other crime, say, burglary, people could be openly telling their ‘when I was burgled’ stories, including how it affected them. While there would be those defending burglars on various grounds, sociological for example, (although probably not what actually constitutes burglary), I don’t think the group affected by the crime would feel silenced, in stark contrast to those defending the perpetrators. Also the burgled group, I suspect, would not feel under much pressure to consider the feelings of the defenders in the way rape victims and their defenders are forced to be polite and sensitive and “reasonable” despite in many cases, feeling wounded and degraded by the defenders’ comments. The whole crazy imbalance wouldn’t be happening

     And of course there is little if any shame and humiliation for theose who are burgled, and even if they didn’t lock the door, this wouldn’t have anywhere near the kind and quality of blame attached, there would be no discussion about whether the not-locking invalidates the householders property rights or could be reasonably construed as such by a would-be thief.

     And of course burglary does not involve mostly members of a more powerful and credible group offending against members of less powerful demographic, and thousands of years of the dominant group getting to define the parameters of any discourse about it.
   • karol 4.3

     16 November 2013 at 9:04 am

     weka: Is there another way to approach this?

     A good question. In response to Trotter, there’s a lot been said about “free speech”. Some guys seem to think misogyny is just another perspective that should be expressed as freely as opposition to misogyny and rape culture. Rather than burglary, perhaps climate change is a slightly better analogy: should climate skepticism be given equal space in any debate on climate change?

     I think the resort to “free speech”, as well as being a distortion, because there are always limits to “free speech”, ignores some fundamentals of speech and language. weka, you touched on it when you said under one of Trotter’s post, that it’s not just about what WJ & TJ “said”, it’s what they “did”. This goes to the heart of speech and language functions.

     I have a strong background in studying speech, language and sociolinguistics (one of my first jobs was as a speech therapist (later jobs working with children who had speech and language difficulties. One fundamental about speech and language (including written language) is that they are not just vehicles for self expression. They also communicate “messages” to others, are a vehicle for relationships, plus speech and language gets things done (usually referred to as the “instrumental function of language”) , and regulatory function (used to control others). [categories originally coming from Michael Halliday]

     I think what WJ & JT did during that phone interview, was less about expressing a point of view, and more about manipulating opinions and attempting to control the woman caller, and thereby all women who publicly protested about rape and sexual assault.

     It’s important to keep in mind what language can do to people in an “open debate” – hence, for instance the need to preface some statements about rape and rape culture with “Trigger Warnings”. Because, for some people some “free speech” will have quite a traumatising impact.
     • just saying 4.3.1

       16 November 2013 at 9:14 am

       Yes it was an atrocious analogy. I was trying to articulate something that has been said far more eloquently by this post at Pantograph Punch:

       http://pantograph-punch.com/a-simple-acknowledgement/

       And in this comment at ‘The Hand Mirror’ in response to the above.

       ….The people making this happen are wonderful, its fantastic that you’re there with the strength and skills to do this and I appreciate so much that it is happening. I know that I’m probably not the only survivor who will be turning up, and I know that my feelings about this are directly related to having been triggered this week. I’ll bet I’m not the only one. So whether or not it is true of this week or true of my childhood, it is worth saying that this week again I’ve felt silenced. I’ve felt like it was hard to get words out. I don’t know what to put on my poster. I’m going to walk down the street tonight and feel stripped naked. I feel talked over by people who think they know better when I have conversations about it. I feel like yelling at you all and saying ‘Shut Up! Stop privileging YOUR ideas, YOUR learning, YOUR theories of why rape happens! Stop asking the question ‘Why does this happen?’ and then NOT LISTENING TO MY ANSWERS.

       And I realised I’ve heard this ‘yell’ before in Aotearoa from Maaori. Just saying… we should know how to do this better by now. Rape culture is dominant in our society. It marginalises those who have been raped and if we don’t acknowledge and address the power dynamics inherent in our conversations and meetings directly, then we buy into the dominant culture.
       • karol 4.3.1.1

         16 November 2013 at 9:17 am

         Thanks for that link, js.

         I’ll include it with my latest post.
         • weka 4.3.1.1.1

           16 November 2013 at 12:11 pm

           Thanks js, karol and miravox, it was really good to come back and read all that. cheers.
   • Bill 4.4

     16 November 2013 at 10:08 am

     Is there another way to approach this?

     Yes there is. Well, not so much ‘another’ way so much as pushing the envelope and expanding the discussion beyond this one aspect of patriarchy (rape culture) to include other major and/or underlying ‘drivers’ of patriarchy.

     To make my point abundantly clear, I’m not proposing an ‘either/or’ situation, but a ‘this/and’ scenario.

     And so Chris Trotters’…well, almost seemed like trolling to me, so maybe best ignored,hmm?… maybe take Bombers’ ridiculous posturing and positioning instead…that shit can then be challenged and folded back into a wider debate without becoming a distraction.

     My feeling is that if the discussion continues to be solely focused on rape culture then, in the long term, nothing bar the social facade of rape culture will change.
     • karol 4.4.1

       16 November 2013 at 10:18 am

       Bill, I have been thinking of putting together a post on wider issues of patriarchy – maybe in relation to the struggles of low income women, particularly, the benefit system etc – as a way of moving on from the kinds of discussion here. I’d rather focus on that than trying to respond to the likes of Trotter, Bomber etc. Focusing on issues of affordable housing, social security etc. There have been some important news stories lately around these issues.

       At the moment I am tired and a bit pushed for time. Maybe some time in the next week.
       • Bill 4.4.1.1

         16 November 2013 at 10:41 am

         Just happy, actually a bit relieved, to hear that there is some appetite for expanding the debate. Working on a post now that may or not be finished today/tomorrow and that wouldn’t cross over with the focuses you’ve mentioned in your comment.
     • weka 4.4.2

       16 November 2013 at 12:19 pm

       “My feeling is that if the discussion continues to be solely focused on rape culture then, in the long term, nothing bar the social facade of rape culture will change.”

       And if women want to focus on rape culture loudly for the next year? What then? I’m also open to a wider discussion about patriarchy, but as soon as someone says stop so much with the focus on rape I think the discussion is narrowed in ways that are really unhelpful.

       Personally, I think focussing on rape culture within a political analysis of the patriarchy is a perfectly valid approach and one that is likely to effect alot of change. Rape isn’t the only issue within that analysis obviously. But because rape culture is about how the patriarchy demeans and trashes the most vulnerable and is what is used to control all people, it seems core to any other action or analysis. In other words, if we don’t get rape culture, we won’t get what the patriarchy is. I think we are still some way from having a deep enough understanding collectively of what rape culture is to be able to adequately address patriarchy (although I can see a conversation about the patriarchy happening alongside at some point. Myself I don’t think we are there yet and an attempt to move the conversation on is not a good thing IMO).

       Beyond that, it is waaay to soon to be saying in a discussion about rape culture, on a day of action about rape culture, that it’s time to move past rape. Let women have their voices, for as long as they need to. Trust women to lead the way on this and that we will take this in the direction it needs to go.
       • weka 4.4.2.1

         16 November 2013 at 12:24 pm

         I also think that focussing on the wider issues of the patriarchy won’t solve the problem I raised. Which is how to have safe space for women (and others) to have these conversations, without men like xtasy or vto continually taking over the space with their own denial agendas. If for instance tomorrow we had a discussion about the patriarchy, and a couple of men came along with the kinds of statements that have gone on re denial of women’s experiences, how many of the most vulnerable women are going to take part? And of those that do take part, what is the impact on them? And how much more effort does it take for them to be here and be heard?

         This is why I’m looking for solutions closer to home. Yes in the long run, dismantle the patriarchy. But in my lifetime I want some more immediate strategies. Rather than theorising about long term political options, I want pragmatic solutions to the worst of rape culture, now.
       • Bill 4.4.2.2

         16 November 2013 at 12:46 pm

         Aside from the fact that I obviously misunderstood what you were referring to when asking ‘Is there another way to approach this?’…

         …I simply didn’t say anything about ‘moving past rape’. And if people want to ‘focus on rape culture loudly for the next year’ – then what’s the problem? I’ll repeat – it’s not either /or….it’s this/and. Y’know, like walking and chewing gum at the same time. Bad analogy, cos walking and chewing gum don’t inform and reinforce one another in ways that widening parameters of debate can and should.

         Anyway…
         • weka 4.4.2.2.1

           16 November 2013 at 1:36 pm

           I suppose I am tying it into a comment you made the last time we discussed the patriarchy, where you suggested we leave sex and rape out for a bit (because it is too fraught?). Also your comment above did talk about moving beyond the sole focus of rape. I think it’s too early to do that, which is most of what my reply was about.
           • Bill 4.4.2.2.1.1

             16 November 2013 at 2:10 pm

             From memory – what I actually said I’d give some thought to – and it was in light of acknowledging that some people were finding comments difficult – was writing a post about patriarchy (obviously and inescapably encompassing rape culture) that excluded explicit reference to sex and sexuality. And from memory, you said such a post could not be written….(if I understood you correctly) that patriarchy couldn’t be written about because references to sex and sexuality would need to be overt and central.

             I disagree, but hey.

             And again…generating additional and relevant foci that are mutually informative and reinforcing ….that are all an integral part of a greater whole – is not in any way ‘moving beyond’. I’m feeling a need to reiterate that on the basis that ‘moving beyond’ (a term I never used but that you seem to be ascribing to me) usually implies excluding, abandoning or diminishing.

             That you might not be ready to participate in any expanded or expanding discussion is legitimate and fine. Just as it is equally legitimate and fine for others to do so.
             • weka …

               16 November 2013 at 3:00 pm

               In the previous convo, I didn’t say a piece couldn’t be written. I said that I didn’t think we could have a discussion about the patriarchy without talking about sex and sexuality. It will inevitably come up. And IMO it’s quite central if one’s analysis of the patriarchy includes gender. In fact it’s hard to for me to see how that could not be so unless one was being abstract. You may surprise me though 🙂

               I suppose I don’t really understand what you meant by ‘both/and’. So when you said “and expanding the discussion beyond this one aspect of patriarchy (rape culture)” and suggested that we don’t focus on rape culture alone, I took that as a moving away from the current discussion. Again, am curious to see if that’s not the case.

               “That you might not be ready to participate in any expanded or expanding discussion is legitimate and fine. Just as it is equally legitimate and fine for others to do so.”

               Actually this isn’t about what I am personally ready for or not. It’s my analysis of the situation. You are suggesting that we need to move to a broader focus ie on the patriarchy, in order to have any real chance at solving the problem. I disagree on the timing for 2 reasons: that it’s important to let women have their voice fully here and now with the energy of what is happening currently, because there are very important things happening within the culture that will make challenges to the patriarchy more likely to succeed.

               And because I think that looking at rape culture is a very good way to taking us into the problems of the patriarchy and what to do about them.

               I also think that on ts, any conversation about the patriarchy is going be problematic for men like vto who out of ignorance and their own shit feel the need to demand that “all men don’t get blamed” at the mere mention of a word like ‘patriarchy’. Which then creates a less safe and conducive environment for women to be involved in. Perhaps what I am saying there is that lack of understanding about rape culture is the stumbling block to a wider discussion about the patriarchy. I also think the general blokiness of the ts culture has an effect too (although less so now that more women comment here).

               In terms of a new post on the patriachy now, I guess my main concern is that. What’s going to happen when vto etc turn up with the denial shit? We can treat it like we do a climate change conversation that attracts deniers, but the issue of safety remains unaddressed.

               I’m not saying the conversation shouldn’t happen, just negotiating the terms 😉
               • karol …

                 16 November 2013 at 10:42 pm

                 My idea of a post, as briefly mentioned above, would include rape culture and sexuality, but putting significant focus on low income women – as away of addressing what the likes of JT and WJ don’t – they seem to think it’s either a focus on rape culture and misogyny (by and about the middle classes) or it’s about working classes, with men as the implied default position..
   • QoT 4.5

     16 November 2013 at 7:19 pm

     To be honest weka, if it were my post I’d nuke such comments from orbit, but I’m a harsh mistress in that regard and certainly harsher than is the norm for The Standard. I’m even meaner in my own space but don’t get a huge number of comments anyway.
     • weka 4.5.1

       16 November 2013 at 8:13 pm

       It would certainly be interesting to see where the conversation might go if the deniers weren’t so present in it.
       • karol 4.5.1.1

         17 November 2013 at 8:30 am

         weka, in terms of a “safe space” for discussion that is “denier” free: I did provide such a space yesterday. And I put a warning in bold on this post that discussion contained challenging discussion (I struggled with the wording because I didn’t want it to act as a tr0ll/stirrer/denier magnet).

         Then I set up another space to be basically (using your word) a “denier” free discussion.

         I did then have to go elsewhere for the rest of the day/evening. I was surprised to find the other thread had been largely ignored.

         So I am puzzled why you chose to continue engaging on this thread, rather than go to the one set up for a more moderated and targeted discussion – hopefully a safer space for those continually damaged by rape culture? And why you didn’t take the option to contribute to a different kind of discussion under the other post?

         With a sensitive topic like rape culture, rather than prevent certain kinds of discussions (as happening under this post) on TS, my preferred option is to signal in the post and front page statement, the kind of discussion that is happening under a post. And to have some posts that will be followed by a more highly moderated kind of discussion. People can then choose which ones they read and/or engage with.

         My approach is usually to opt out of discussions once they become polarised into a couple of positions that keep getting repeated without resolution. I usually figure once I have made 3 or 4 comments on an issue, my position is pretty clear, and saying more will be just re-stating it in various ways. I also usually figure that, if I have left some significant things unstated, the opportunity state them will arise in a later discussion – possibly when emotions have cooled and there is a more receptive context.

         The discussion here was already under way when I woke up yesterday (I can’t watch TS discussions 24/7). And it seemed to me there were some issues raised (eg questions about how to have such discussions) that I thought there were reasons to let it continue.
         • weka 4.5.1.1.1

           17 November 2013 at 8:35 am

           Thanks karol. I also saw your comment last night (just below) and wanted to think about it before I replied. Not sure if I will get to that today, will see how I go.
         • just saying 4.5.1.1.2

           17 November 2013 at 8:48 am

           Hi Karol,
           No reflection on your moderation. The discussion happened where it happened. As I recall it started quite early in the morning on the other thread. The rules you stated in the your post meant that this discussion couldn’t have happened there.

           On the other hand, I’m not sure anyone could have insisted the discussion be moved to the other thread. Although, to be honest, it never occurred to me to try.

           .
           • karol 4.5.1.1.2.1

             17 November 2013 at 8:57 am

             js, actually, I had in mind a different focus of discussion under the other post – focused on reports on the day of action criticisms of rape culture and solutions proposed.

             If I had deleted some of the comments already here (or parts thereof), or had moved them to open mike, then the discussion here would have become a different kind of discussion as well.

             My response to discussions taking a direction I dislike, is very often to withdraw from the discussion – not continue to keep giving it oxygen – reason why I wouldn’t participate in discussions under Trotter’s posts, or post a direct rebuttal to them. I’d rather do posts focusing on related issues as I see them.

             Now, work calls.
             • weka …

               17 November 2013 at 9:31 am

               I didn’t realise that the other thread was for such a discussion. I thought it was an announcement for the actions that day. I think maybe it would’ve been good to signal at the top of thread what it was for. If I had understood what that thread was for I would have been happy to comment there instead of here, and it would have been way better if I had taken my original comment on ‘what can we do differently?’ there.

               I would have been interested to see how ts authors managed moderation of such a thread too.

               A missed opportunity, arohamai.

               Can we take the discussion there now? 🙂

               btw, karol and Bill, I think I misunderstood what you were saying yesterday. Because my original comment had been specific about the rape culture conversations and how to do that differently, I though you were both talking about taking those conversations in a more general direction. Separate from that, any discussions on the patriarchy are always welcome 🙂

               I do think trying to have one on the back of what has happened in this thread is pretty fraught with difficulties, but I guess that depends on moderation and how much commenters allow themselves to get distracted. It’s pretty typical for people to go off on argument tangents.

               Karol you asked why I would comment here rather than the other thread. Aside from the reason above, I think it’s been pretty instructive for me to have this argument with vto and RL. I have a much better understanding of what happens in these conversations and will be thinking carefully about strategies. Often I also just respond to what is popping up in front of me too (via the comments links).
               • karol …

                 17 November 2013 at 6:03 pm

                 weka: I thought it was an announcement for the actions that day. I think maybe it would’ve been good to signal at the top of thread what it was for.

                 I did do that. Did I not make it clear enough?

                 On the front page I put this:

                 This post and comments are in support of the day of action.

                 I thought that is what this post would have been for, and later regretted I hadn’t put such a warning on this post.

                 At the bottom of the other Day of Action pots (published yesterday morning), I wrote this:

                 NB: Please keep discussions below this post in support of the Day of Action, the campaign against Rape Culture, ways of support victims, and ways to build a mainstream society free of misogyny and sexism. Please keep in mind the impact of our words on survivors.

                 The comments below will be moderated accordingly.

                 Other Standard authors, please feel free to add to this post, and/or moderate any comments. Unfortunately I will be offline and away from a computer for most of the day and evening.

                 Apart from the typo/grammatical error, was that not clear enough?
                 • weka …

                   17 November 2013 at 10:00 pm

                   I often don’t come in off the front page, I use the comment links instead.

                   I thought the second post was another announcement post, and was surprised to see it. I think it would have been clearer if the title reflected the post as a discussion space, and also that it was highlighted at the top of the post rather than as an NB at the bottom. The comment about moderation made sense at the bottom (as is usual ts practice), but I don’t think I read that whole section until much later as I didn’t reread the what looked like another announcement post.
         • weka 4.5.1.1.3

           17 November 2013 at 9:38 am

           “weka, in terms of a “safe space” for discussion that is “denier” free: I did provide such a space yesterday.”

           I remain open but as yet unconvinced that such a safe space exists on ts at this point. QoT is about the only person who consistently moderates hard enough IMO, although I acknowledge your intention to moderate more closely on that particular thread. I like your idea of letting the convo in this thread being one thing, and the other being more closely moderated, and then people can choose. However in the absense of you and QoT it’s hard to see how that would work. I don’t expect you to have to give up a day to moderate either. I think there are other authors like Bill, Lynn, and others who also are good at moderating these things sensitively but they are much more hands-off. My point I guess is that because ts largely doesn’t have a moderation policy for content (as opposed to say THM), I think it’s more of a hit or miss situation. It’s probably worth a try at some point when the time is right.
           • karol 4.5.1.1.3.1

             17 November 2013 at 6:27 pm

             weka: I remain open but as yet unconvinced that such a safe space exists on ts at this point.

             Fair enough. People will choose which sites and posts to comment on/under based on their judgement of each space. It is good that a diversity of spaces and approaches exist online & that there are a diversity of authors on TS.

             I think the left generally still needs some culture change as it is still pretty much permeated with traditional masculine ethos. It can clearly be seen in the spread of responses on TS. Real and significant change doesn’t happen over night.

             QoT and I have a different style and approach and that is fine by me. I would not be able to do the kind of moderating, commenting or posting she does. My approach has developed after several decades of teaching experience and nearly two decades of participating in online forums. I also had a lot of experience in women only spaces in London in the late 70s and 80s, as well as within diverse left wing spaces there.

             To me the current state of the web, TS, and the NZ left indicates that slapping down individual expressions of misogyny/patriarchy is a bit like swatting ants: you can clear one space of ants, then they start pouring through another crack in the ground that I hadn’t previously been aware of. I put a moderating warning on one of my first posts on the post RB rape culture issue, and it was mostly respected. But then under other posts by other authors, the more intense and fractious debate continued.

             I think there were similar moves in the 70s and 80s in NZ as in London with women-only spaces and challenges to left wing men. My experience in London was of some left wing men with varying understanding of feminism, who were great on class politics, but who, in their personal lives were reported to have sexually harassed and/or assaulted women. Women set up women-only ways of operating when they felt that left wing spaces were too male dominated, and where men strongly defended their privilege.

             In NZ under Clark’s government the likes of John Tamihere still seeped through the cracks with misogynistic statements, were dismissed, then popped up again through other cracks in the social fabric – ditto the likes of Trotter – like swatting ants – while real change is slow.

             From my time in teaching I learned real and significant learning and change is slow. New ideas/concepts need to be presented many times, from different angles in different ways. I also think online discussions have a tendency to get polarised and positions entrenched. I prefer to withdraw sometimes, and to come back to some similar ideas at a later date, maybe from a slightly different angle.

             I will continue to do some posts on sensitive topics that are highly moderated, and carry warnings as such, while other posts will be more moderated as per TS generally.
             • weka …

               17 November 2013 at 10:06 pm

               All good karol.

               I also have a background of women’s collectives and other egalitarian models, although the feminist ones were more late 80s and 90s. I notice the stark contrast in the different cultures with those spaces and other places like here. One of the things I felt early on in the past few weeks was the need for online collective feminist space (or pro-feminist space) in NZ. I’m not aware of anything like ts that has that focus (ts seems pretty unique in any regards).
               • karol …

                 18 November 2013 at 7:23 am

                 weka, I think TS is quite unique in the way it fosters discussion (amongst NZ and left political blogs anyway). But it does take specific skills, commitment and a core group with a similar commitment.

                 I always enjoy discussion. A good online forum has moderators with background/understanding in the idiosyncrasies and workings of such discussions. It also helps to have the computing skills, of Lynn (and I think r0b), and the willingness to continually put time into the site.

                 Having a core group who know each other offline often helps with discussion forums.

                 There are some very good feminist blogs. The Hand Mirror has been an ongoing and excellent feminist presence over time. But there are extra challenges for feminist/women-centred blogs/forums. I have been on public ones in past times that regularly attracted misogynist and homophobic tr0lls. One of the forums went private onto an invite-only email list because of the extra stresses in a public forum.

                 The people who claim TS moderators censor comments through it’s moderating processes, have no idea how much of a tightrope it is to keep the wreckers and haters at bay, while still enabling a relatively free flow of discussion. I recall how I/S NRT, gave up on allowing comments after a lot of agro from tr0lls. He decided to focus on his posts.
     • karol 4.5.2

       16 November 2013 at 10:57 pm

       Well, I’m usually a fairly light moderator. I have been strict on a couple of posts on this topic when I signaled it in the posts – and generally it has been respected e.g when I opened a separate post on the day of action and stated that it is for comments supporting the aims and demands of the day of action. This is where I would like to see more discussion on the issues.

       I did that because I think the deleting of comments, or parts there-of will just get result in continuing of the counter responses under other posts or on open mike.

       Coming home and seeing this whole thread just continuing to go round in circles as for the last week is depressing: and it just seems to get centred around one or two guys complaining about men being misunderstood. Meanwhile few have contributed to the alternative thread I opened up.

       I think some guys don’t get how the TS, and political spaces generally tend to be pretty masculine dominated: with a traditionally masculine style of engagement (that includes politicians, and the political commentariate). And some do debate and discuss things in a more abrasive way, and often with less sensitivity to others, than I’m used to in more women centred spaces.

       And I don’t think some men are aware of how off-putting that can be for many women and some men). But I’m not sure that just using aggressive tactics to suppress the abrasive and masculine-dominated discourse will bring about any long term change in such a culture – or result in any but the already supportive reading and participating in further discussions of the issues.
5. vto 5

   16 November 2013 at 8:46 am

   Good luck with the day of action.

   Can I make one suggestion. Please don’t turn it into something that becomes anti-men, even though of course it is men who do the offending… if that happens it will turn many men who are on your side, against you or drive them away into hiding, which will do nothing to resolve the problem.

   A similar thing seems to have happened in the arena of children and teaching where men now fear to tread, with consequences now becoming apparent (insufficient male role models and the then ongoing consequence of that…).
   • just saying 5.1

     16 November 2013 at 8:57 am

     The responsibility in both the cases you refer to lies with the offenders, not the people exposing the problem and trying to help those who have been victimised. Maybe it’s time to stop feeling sorry for yourselves and turn the anger towards the offenders and the cultural practices and beliefs that enable and sustain them
     • vto 5.1.1

       16 November 2013 at 9:07 am

       yes that’s right, the responsibility lies with the offenders and I didn’t say it wasn’t. I said, effectively, don’t make the problem that of people who are not the offenders i.e. all men.

       kapiche?

       As for this … “Maybe it’s time to stop feeling sorry for yourselves”… what on earth do you mean?
       • BM 5.1.1.1

         16 November 2013 at 9:10 am

         You have a penis.
         Face it, you’re already guilty.
       • karol 5.1.1.2

         16 November 2013 at 9:11 am

         vto, would that you would spend as much time and space considering the impact of rape culture and misogyny, that you do to advocating for men.

         Where is your sensitivity to so many people damaged by rape culture and misogyny?
         • vto 5.1.1.2.1

           16 November 2013 at 9:35 am

           Karol “vto, would that you would spend as much time and space considering the impact of rape culture and misogyny, that you do to advocating for men.”

           I have made dozens of posts and spent a considerable chunk of time considering the impact of rape culture, sex culture, roast busters, miley cyrus and misogyny on the JT thread. A huge chunk. Ok?

           I have made one post advocating for men – that just above. Ok?
           • McFlock 5.1.1.2.1.1

             16 November 2013 at 2:28 pm

             I have made dozens of posts and spent a considerable chunk of time considering the impact of rape culture, sex culture, roast busters, miley cyrus and misogyny on the JT thread. A huge chunk. Ok?

             actually, no you haven’t.

             You’ve misreported what people have said (e.g. claiming A’Court was “worried” when she wrote no such thing, claiming people keep saying “it’s all mens fault”) and then asked lots leading questions based on those misrepresentations, and then gotten all pissy when called on the implications of where those questions led.

             To call that “considering” is just passive-aggressive pretention.
       • locus 5.1.1.3

         16 November 2013 at 9:19 am

         vto you do feel sorry for yourself – get a backbone – and get a heart too

         honestly i’m sick of listening to snivelling “it’s so unfair to men”.

         on this topic vto there is no way you can begin to understand what it’s like until you’ve walked a mile in their shoes
         • vto 5.1.1.3.1

           16 November 2013 at 9:31 am

           and I’m sick of listening to “it’s all mens fault”

           as for walking in their shoes – do you know whether I have done that or not?
           • just saying 5.1.1.3.1.1

             16 November 2013 at 9:43 am

             citation required or some might think you are dramatising your “plight’
           • weka 5.1.1.3.1.2

             16 November 2013 at 1:39 pm

             and I’m sick of listening to “it’s all mens fault”

             vto, please provide 3 examples on ts from the past week where regulars here have said “it’s all mens fault”. If you can’t do that, then shut the fuck up with lies about what we are saying.

             IMO “it’s all mens fault” is a complete projection out of your own brain, and reflects both your inability to listen to and understand what we are discussing, as well as your own internal conflicts from your life.

             I’m sick of your derailments.
             • QoT …

               16 November 2013 at 7:21 pm

               Hey, I can come up with heaps of examples of the phrase “it’s all men’s fault” from the past few weeks. It’s just every single one of them comes from a Very Concerned Man and has the words “I’m so sick of listening to evil feminists saying” stuck on the beginning.
       • just saying 5.1.1.4

         16 November 2013 at 9:20 am

         Wah Wah
         I’m a man and so are most rapists, so we shouldn’t talk about rape because it hurts my fee fees. My feelings need to be protected…. wah wah
         • vto 5.1.1.4.1

           16 November 2013 at 9:28 am

           Your sense that there is some element of feeling sorry for myself is entirely predicated on your personal viewing angle and interpretation, not mine. Feel free to keep rolling in the mud.

           I am not a rapist.

           Those people who are rapists are the brothers of both males and females, and the sons of both mothers and fathers. That makes the problem that of all of society not just one sector that has one set of characteristics in common.

           If you don’t understand what I am saying then carry on making it the problem of all men and men only. Exactly what I warned against. Over to you.
           • just saying 5.1.1.4.1.1

             16 November 2013 at 9:38 am

             Those people who are rapists are the brothers of both males and females. That makes the problem that of all of society not just one sector that has one set of characteristics in common.

             QFT, and yet you are asking those who have been vicitimised and those who are supporting them to be sensitive to your feelings, and give you a wee hug and say, “its alright VTO sorry to offend you. We know you aren’t a rapist….etc.” And in deference to your feelings provide a disclaimer to protect the feelings of members of your “sector” between every sentence we speak. Because it’s your feelings that really matter in this (and probably all) matter(s).
           • locus 5.1.1.4.1.2

             16 November 2013 at 10:45 am

             “carry on making it the problem of all men and men only”

             hmm.. vto do you really think that people are somehow blaming all men? or is it that you just want to point out that there must be bad women who sexually abuse and rape men and that we shouldn’t forget that? either of these perspectives would reflect a very warped view…. but then maybe i simply “dont understand” what you’re trying to say

             you may find it surprising, but i’d hazard a guess that 99% of men in NZ don’t have any sense at all that they (or all men) are being blamed by people who are going on marches and standing up to try to improve care for victims

             given the prevalence of sexual abuse and rape in NZ, men with half an ounce of decency know that it’s high time they should step up and try to change this boorish bullying macho hoho blokey culture which treats women as some other “sector” of society that deserves/asks for/wants whatever they get from men.

             imo a ‘rape apologist’ is any male that supports the idea that men can be excused from sexual opportunism and/or predatory or bullying sexual behaviour, because men are somehow “victims” of their hormones or of societal norms or because they were egged on by women (or by girls) being friendly or looking them in the eye or wearing short skirts or by being friendly and then saying no.
           • RedLogix 5.1.1.4.1.3

             16 November 2013 at 2:32 pm

             Fascinating how everyone is yelling right past each other still. These days my connection to cyberspace comes in little fleeting slivers, so I can’t engage in a long conversation …

             vto, xtasy, myself have all been variously labelled ‘rapists’ or ‘rape apologists’ or ‘enablers’. That’s fine, we’re big boys now and this is the least of hurtful, demeaning and sneering things we’ve encountered. We’ll cope.

             Yet in reality I know exactly what vto, xtasy and I have in common. We’re very normal, decent working men who love and respect the women in our lives, support them, encourage them and take great delight in their beauty, energy and accomplishments. We sometimes think them magical creatures who are a complete wonderment to us, and yet we find great solace in our shared, intimate daily domestic humanity.

             What the three of us also have in common is that we find the whole idea of raping a women entirely abhorrent, absurd and baffling. For life of me I can’t see why anyone would do such a thing … and for what? While we can sense the idea behind the ‘rape culture’ idea, we know that there is a truth to it .. it’s something we personally find alien.

             And we do know that some people are predators, bullies, manipulators and sometimes just they’re just not morally strong enough to stand up to the situation they find themselves in … and for all these reasons many women find themselves on the wrong end of this and they are raped. The rapist is responsible … but collectively the rest of us feel whakama.

             And if I was anywhere near NZ today I’d be marching.

             But also having lived a bit of life, we’ve also encountered women whose behavior can only be described as ’emotional rape’. Women who also use positions of emotional or situational power to exploit, abuse and traumatise. We don’t have a proper word for it, it’s rarely discussed, victims are shamed and silenced and it’s not even crime.

             Rape is the forcible violation of a women’s sexual sovereignty … yet we don’t even have a word for what happens when a man’s emotional sovereignty is violated in a different, yet parallel fashion. That while men are capable of being stupid, violent and misogynistic, it doesn’t mean that women are not equally capable of being nasty, manipulative and vicious. Neither gender has a monopoly on virtue. Yet framing this important discussion entirely in terms of rape culture (men bad, women good) pretends otherwise.

             What I do know is that simply reversing the gender roles in the ‘patriarchy’ … a zero sum game WITHOUT a fundamental addressing of how all humans understand and respect power is not going to have a happy outcome.

             I was trying to discuss the patriarchy here years ago… long, long before it was a bandwagon. I’ve long wanted to see us talk about it and start to honestly address how we might go about dismantling the often abusive power structure it represents. I’m not very good at it. I’m not an academic, I can’t attend a university course on this (right now I’m working 16 hr days in a location none of you can imagine, saving money so my partner and I can fulfill some important goals) … I can only listen, and think, and attempt my own clumsy responses.

             I’ve always wanted something better.Why the fuck does anyone think vto, xtasy and I are here?
             • just saying …

               16 November 2013 at 2:56 pm

               I think you need a man to discuss your issues with.
               I suggest Puddleglum – he has a blog post on this matter at the moment, maybe he can help
               • weka …

                 16 November 2013 at 3:03 pm

                 +1
               • RedLogix …

                 16 November 2013 at 3:06 pm

                 Ah yes. The STFU response.

                 Otherwise … I politely suggest you actually read PG’s thread.
                 • just saying …

                   16 November 2013 at 3:15 pm

                   I did read it. That’s why I suggested he might be able to help.
                   Whereas I can’t.
                   Feel free to continue Redlogix. This isn’t my blog, I have no way of sliencing you nor have I tried. I just made a suggestion.
                   My own response to your comment at this point of the conversation would proabably be…..unhelpful.
                   • RedLogix …

                     16 November 2013 at 3:21 pm

                     If you had read it, you would see the small irony in your suggestion.

                     On the other hand if I suggested to say weka that perhaps she should “find a woman to discuss her issues with” … you’d rightly be all over me like a rash for trying to silence her.
                   • just saying …

                     16 November 2013 at 3:31 pm

                     Weka has managed to stay on topic.

                     Thing is, you keep asking questions and completely ignoring the answers, which seems to cause you to keep repeating yourself in a kind of groundhog loop.
                   • RedLogix …

                     16 November 2013 at 5:28 pm

                     Maybe because the answers we keep getting are an unhelpful brew of slogans, thinly-disguised man-bashing and band-wagon hopping.

                     But yes you are right; this isn’t about how this affects me as a man. We really don’t need to take men into account here at all….
                   • marty mars …

                     16 November 2013 at 7:45 pm

                     The answers you are getting are not like that for me. I see people genuinely trying to post answers that are positive and affirmative in that they are aligned to the objective of identifying and seeking answers to dismantling rape culture. You and the others want to discuss something else and you don’t have the sensitivity or empathy to see where the differences are. No one imo is blaming all men except for you and the hanger ons – it’s the false premise that is the foundation of just about all of the posts from you lot.

                     Then you all have the audacity to go down they ‘poor men’ line – guess what? You don’t speak for me mate – I don’t agree with you. I don’t agree with the ‘poor men’ position. You lot have talked over, belittled and ignored most if not all of the women and some men who have tried to patiently explain the false foundation that you build from – its a perfect illustration of patriarchy imo and it would be funny if it wasn’t so fucken sad.

                     Why won’t you all listen to what is being said – why is it so difficult to lower the ego and learn something? Everyone can learn – try it, it’s fun.
                 • weka …

                   16 November 2013 at 4:05 pm

                   Who is PG?
             • weka …

               16 November 2013 at 3:02 pm

               vto, xtasy, myself have all been variously labelled ‘rapists’

               [citation needed]. When you post evidence for what you have just said I will read the rest of your comment.
               • RedLogix …

                 16 November 2013 at 3:13 pm

                 We’ve certainly been vehemently labelled rape apologisers and enablers, and while no-one has come right out and said it … from there it’s not a very long stretch from there to actual ‘rapist’ is it?

                 But if you want to get stuck on that point, I’m happy to retract it. I really don’t mind.

                 Or should I take this as permission not to read any of your comments that I think I won’t like from here on in? Fair’s fair and all.
                 • weka …

                   16 November 2013 at 4:04 pm

                   “We’ve certainly been vehemently labelled rape apologisers and enablers, and while no-one has come right out and said it … from there it’s not a very long stretch from there to actual ‘rapist’ is it?”

                   Only in your head dude. Myself, I think there is a long way between many rape apologists and actual rapists. That you confuse the two says much about you.

                   Until you understand this vital difference between what we are saying and what you think is being said, there’s not much point in dialogue. Vto is making the same mistake when he thinks that holding men accountable for their part in rape culture is about ‘blaming all men’ or being anti-men.

                   I also think there’s not much point in dialogue if you can’t tell the difference between rape and rape apology/enabling or if you think they are so similar that any difference doesn’t matter. Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks to me like you are again framing the issues in terms of how it affects you as a man – you don’t like being called a rape apologist, and therefore feel you are being called a rapist. I’m just not clear why you expect women to have to deal with this, given the context.

                   Like js said, you might be better off talking these issues through with men who have awareness of rape culture, rather than women who are already well into talking about rape culture and all the issues attendant with that.
                   • RedLogix …

                     16 November 2013 at 5:16 pm

                     That you confuse the two says much about you…

                     Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks to me like you are again framing the issues in terms of how it affects you as a man – you don’t like being called a rape apologist, and therefore feel you are being called a rapist.

                     Because calling someone a ‘rape apologist’ clearly implies that person believes everything about rape is all ok.

                     Which then carries the idea that the only distance between them and an actual rapist is either the lack of opportunity, or that they would happily rape if they could but just don’t want to risk being caught.

                     Update: Maybe you are using the word ‘apologist’ in a technical, academic sense here. Maybe you do see a real distinction … but I’d suggest the vast majority of ordinary people like me don’t.

                     Like js said, you might be better off talking these issues through with men who have awareness of rape culture, rather than women who are already well into talking about rape culture and all the issues attendant with that.

                     So why don’t you just stick to talking with other women who are well into talking about rape culture? Or would you find that a patronising, demeaning thing for me to say?
                   • Rogue Trooper …

                     16 November 2013 at 5:21 pm

                     “ Communication Breakdown , It’s always the same…”
                   • RedLogix …

                     16 November 2013 at 5:57 pm

                     sometimes words have two meanings…
                   • Rogue Trooper …

                     16 November 2013 at 6:09 pm

                     connotation, an idea or feeling which a word invokes ( evocative 😉 ) for a person in addition to it’s literal or primary meaning; cultural or emotional association. sleight 😀
                   • weka …

                     16 November 2013 at 7:45 pm

                     “Because calling someone a ‘rape apologist’ clearly implies that person believes everything about rape is all ok.”

                     No it doesn’t. Or, it does in your mind, not mine. Honestly RL, I can understand your reactions if that’s what you think, but you are wrong if that’s what you think I and others here are saying.

                     I suggest that if you take a step back and take the time to listen and then clarify what is being said, you will find that I don’t think you are a rapist, and I don’t think your apologist views on rape culture make you an evil person.
                   • rhinocrates …

                     16 November 2013 at 7:58 pm

                     RedLogix, this isn’t about you or any points you have to prove. This is a time to listen to what women have to say about their own lives. Please do so – you may learn something.

                     Stop trying to make this all about you.
             • QoT …

               16 November 2013 at 7:23 pm

               vto, xtasy, myself have all been variously labelled ‘rapists’ or ‘rape apologists’ or ‘enablers’.

               Beautiful ass-covering there! You’ve been called rapists, which is terrible!!! Or maybe you were just called rape apologists. Or maybe just enablers. Which are JUST as terrible!!!

               Don’t want people to identify that your comments directly contribute to a culture which downplays rape and lets rapists walk free? Stop making those comments.
6. greywarbler 6

   16 November 2013 at 2:54 pm

   RL
   That is a very sincere and fair attempt to discuss the situation. And it would be good if such
   extended ones could take place without slogans, labelling from either side. I am sure your women must think you are the bees knees, as my gran would put it. And how nice to have a few homely little comments, not the academic disputation that seems to be to the fore lately.
   • Anne 6.1

     16 November 2013 at 3:52 pm

     +1.
     Thank you Redlogix for such a well rounded reflection.

     I walked away from commenting on this subject because it seemed to me there was too much talking at cross purposes and a clouding of the different perspectives – all of which are probably equally valid. We all tend to come at it from our own life’s experience.

     … while men are capable of being stupid, violent and misogynistic, it doesn’t mean that women are not equally capable of being nasty, manipulative and vicious. Neither gender has a monopoly on virtue. Yet framing this important discussion entirely in terms of rape culture (men bad, women good) pretends otherwise.

     As the former victim of such a woman, I can attest to the accuracy of RL’s quote. In my case the harassment and intimidation (all of which was covert so I didn’t know at the time who was responsible) continued on and off for some ten years. In the end my life and expectations of it was so badly sullied, it was to take me another ten years to regain my former confidence and self-esteem. It was a distressing and demeaning time and I had to struggle to recover from the consequences alone because few people (including my former Govt.employers and the police) believed me at the time.
     • just saying 6.1.1

       16 November 2013 at 4:20 pm

       I’ve been hurt by women on occasions, badly in fact. I suspect most people have.
       However, the topic at thand is sexual abuse and rape, so unless your experience relates to the topic, I find it hard to see your point.
       • Anne 6.1.1.1

         16 November 2013 at 4:59 pm

         I was replying to Redlogix at 5.1.1.4.1.3 just saying. Hit reply but comment ended up way down the page.

         My comment makes sense if you were to read RL’s above posting. Is it now unacceptable to reply to the stated perspective of an individual commenter without permission? You would do better not to belittle the experiences of another person when you don’t have any of the detail at hand. That shows a level of disrespect that people are currently levelling at many men – and yes, some of them more than deserve it.
         • just saying 6.1.1.1.1

           16 November 2013 at 5:11 pm

           You don’t think “what about the menz” and “women can be cruel too” in a thread about rape culture belittles the experience of rape survivors? Today of all days?

           To be absolutely clear: I’ve never said anything like man=bad, woman=good. It’s not my experience and not what I believe.

           edit: to further clarify -my postion it is rape=bad, rape victim=not guilty
   • QoT 6.2

     16 November 2013 at 8:46 pm

     your women

     He even has papers for them, he’s such a responsible woman-owner. 🙄
7. xtasy 7

   16 November 2013 at 4:03 pm

   I can live with all the criticism and have no problem with being labeled or shot at. Personally I have always found myself much more respectful of women than most work mates or other male persons I have met.

   This is indeed a sombre experience.

   Most certainly I do not excuse rape, I simply have tried to make the point that this whole issue seems to have been pushed a bit further than the reality out there may warrant.

   But in the eyes of some here, I feel, they seem to think I better talk to Colin Craig now, and join the “Conservatives”?! How bizarre, how bizarre.
   • Colonial Viper 7.1

     16 November 2013 at 4:28 pm

     It appears that your perspectives and wording did not make the grade of acceptability set by others. And in failing to make the grade – it appears that you’ve been tagged as a typically regressive man. Consequently, it seems your point of view now lacks either validity or value.
     • McFlock 7.1.1

       16 November 2013 at 4:41 pm

       Nah.
       Comparing being raped with drink-driving is what indicates a certain point of view lacks validity.

       I can see the defense in court: “the complainant had had one too many shandies so I, stone cold sober and completely alert, was compelled to cross the centre line at speed and collide with their parked car repeatedly for 20 minutes despite being repeatedly asked not to, your honour…”
     • xtasy 7.1.2

       16 November 2013 at 5:45 pm

       CV: It is not – nor never will be – my intention, to please everybody. There will always be differing views on topics, and if that is not meeting the “grade of acceptability”, then it may indeed put into question whether free expression is wanted by some. If I am “regressive”, then this shows me, how far to one side others may be with their position or view.

       It does not encourage me or others to bother commenting on social media blogs any further.

       [karol: I pointed out the problems of the “free speech” line of argument at [4.3 @ 9.04am] It ignores that speech/language does more than provide a vehicle for self expression of individual views: it impacts on people in very real ways, manipulates and controls people. There has been plenty of space given to your line of argument on TS. The way this issue is discussed is a minefield for rape and sexual violence survivors in a higly damaging and silencing way. I think, particularly in relation to yesterday’s day of action, people could have had more respect for the sensitivities of rape/sexual violence survivors. Our culture and mainstream platforms a discourses is already a minefield for survivors every day]
       • Colonial Viper 7.1.2.1

         16 November 2013 at 5:51 pm

         And what will remain – an echo chamber.
         • Rogue Trooper 7.1.2.1.1

           16 November 2013 at 5:53 pm

           hellooooooo, is there anybody out there…? ; eight Rangers rode in, kimosabe, one returns from death.
         • weka 7.1.2.1.2

           16 November 2013 at 8:13 pm

           Xtasy isn’t regressive. He’s wrong. Rape culture is ubiquitous. He is entitled to his opinion that it isn’t but if he expresses that opinion in a thread like this, then it’s appropriate for him to get the response he has. It appears his opinion is based on his own experiences. That compared to the huge amount of work done by many people over many years on rape culture? Seriously?

           If I heard people like RL having a decent grasp of what rape culture is, and then critiquing how it is being dealt with, that would be one thing. But what I hear is some people having a rather superficial and sometimes very inaccurate understanding, and they they try to argue from that place. It doesn’t work any more than someone coming here and aruging climate change science when they can’t tell the difference between climate and weather.

           There seems to be an increasing view that intolerance of the view that rape culture is minimal is somehow a suppression of dissent. That’s pretty sick IMO given the context. I feel open to taking the debate beyond what it is now, but unfortunately the deniers just keep dragging the conversation back to basics.
           • wtl 7.1.2.1.2.1

             16 November 2013 at 9:07 pm

             I also saw the same pattern of conservation developing and feel like there is little point having a discussion about rape culture in this blog.

             The problem is that as soon as people say something that you or others think is ‘correct’, they are attacked or ridiculed. I can understand this approach when someone is clearly adopting an attitude which is blaming victims or excusing perpetrators, but it also happens when people are sincerely trying to discuss the subject, such as what has happened with RL multiple times. I note that he doesn’t seem to be showing any kind of denial that rape culture exists, nor is he trying to derail the discussion that others are having, so I think your comparison to a climate change denialist fails.

             I accept they you may know a lot more about rape culture than them (and me). Perhaps a better approach would be to work with us to find common ground, rather than immediately attacking us for saying something that you don’t agree with. Surely one of the most important ways of dealing with rape and rape culture is to get people to actually talking about it? Shutting down any conversation that doesn’t follow ‘the rules’ seems like a sure way to achieve nothing. It will simply turn people away – people who could instead be out there helping to eliminate rape culture.
             • wtl …

               16 November 2013 at 9:20 pm

               Correction: The problem is that as soon as people say something that you or others think is not ‘correct’.
             • weka …

               16 November 2013 at 9:21 pm

               Thanks wtl, I do agree that finding ways to open the conversation is desirable 🙂

               The climate change denial thing is more aimed at xtasy, and perhaps vto. But the issue of what you do when people are speaking from a place of gross ignorance and they don’t know that they are ignorant, well there the comparison with CC debate is valid. The main difference would be that CC debate falls along political lines, but here we are more likely to be all on the left, so there is this pressure to agree or be able to disagree but still be on the same side.

               “The problem is that as soon as people say something that you or others think is ‘correct’, they are attacked or ridiculed. I can understand this approach when someone is clearly adopting an attitude which is blaming victims or excusing perpetrators”

               I can see why you would say this. For me, and I suspect others the problem here is that the things being said aren’t just small disagreements. They’re major. The ways that RL engages have been responded to like today a number of times, and all I can say is that the people I see in this thread who know alot about rape culture are all pretty consistent in their response to RL. And it’s not just me and js etc, you can see some men responding too.

               It concerns me that when we stand up strongly and say no, your attitudes about rape culture not only stink but are damaging… that when we do that, we are being told that we are siliencing people, or trying to control how people think. What I don’t get is why this is applied to us in this discussion, but not all the myriad of other topics where people argue strongly in ts. If you can point out a substantive difference, other than gender lines, I would be interested. What I hear is that some men aren’t being given a fair chance to express their views. They obviously think their views are reasonable. We don’t. But when people take people talking shit about CC to task, they don’t get accused of being the thought police (at least not by the left). Maybe we have an impasse here, but in that case all I can say is that until you let women be heard and understood on these issues, I can’t see use getting much further.

               To put all this another way:

               “rather than immediately attacking us for saying something that you don’t agree with.”

               Do you also think that CC deniers, or Mathew Hooton doing his spin here, or King Kong spouting right wing offensive rubbish should be met politely in a way that engages discussion? What if someone turned up here making race hatred speech? Should they be given a welcome? Or do you think that some things just need to be challenged for the bullshit that they are. I’m unclear as to why women in this thread should be trying to form debate alliances with people who they regard as promoting rape culture.

               Basically that comes down to who you accept as having a level of expertise on rape culture.

               btw, despite what RL says, I don’t see RL, vto, Grey, xtasy etc as being amorphous in their views. There are distinct differences.
               • wtl …

                 16 November 2013 at 9:39 pm

                 I understand where you are coming from, but I think that the most important thing to consider is this: Is RedLogix sincere in trying to have a discussion about ways in which he can do something to stop rape culture?

                 In my opinion, he is, but your opinion may differ.

                 The point is that CC deniers and RWNJs that come here are not trying have a sincere discussion, there are simply trying to derail or to use this forum as a soapbox to showcase their opinions. They are not debating in good faith. Therefore, it doesn’t really help to have a proper conservation with them. On the other hand, if someone is debating in good faith, the best thing to do is properly engage with them so that hopefully they will accept your point of view and change their thinking or behaviour accordingly.
                 • weka …

                   16 November 2013 at 10:17 pm

                   I’m sure RL is a fine bloke. He certainly comes across that way when not talking about rape. In his own mind I’m sure he is being genuine. I don’t think this is the most important thing. When it comes down to it I’ll take the right of survivors to have a voice over men who feel aggrieved about being blamed for something they’re not actually being blamed for.

                   “On the other hand, if someone is debating in good faith, the best thing to do is properly engage with them so that hopefully they will accept your point of view and change their thinking or behaviour accordingly.”

                   Except RL and vto have both shown consistency over time of not changing. How long should we wait exactly?

                   I don’t believe that they are debating in good faith. I think they are pusing their own agendas and doing so in ways that are highly insensitive to the other people here.

                   There is probably no other way to say this than has already been said multiple times, but it’s beyond me why they need to come into this particular discussion and demand attention for their views. If they think this is about feminists being controlling then please note the voices also of marty, McFlock, Rhinocrates etc.
                   • weka …

                     16 November 2013 at 10:19 pm

                     There is a piece by Maia on the Hand Mirror, in which she describes how her mother came to her and said “what can I do?” Imagine how differently this conversation would have gone if RL and others had come here and said “what can I do?”. And then listened. That I would have considered good faith.
                   • RedLogix …

                     16 November 2013 at 11:09 pm

                     Except RL and vto have both shown consistency over time of not changing. How long should we wait exactly?

                     See my 8.2.1 below. Indeed how much longer do you want to wait?
             • miravox …

               16 November 2013 at 9:42 pm

               ” It will simply turn people away – people who could instead be out there helping to eliminate rape culture.
               “
               And yet… the people who are dropping out of this conversation over the past week are those who have been sexually assaulted and those who have been and continue to be belittled by rape culture. Go figure.

               I have no academic knowledge in this field, like others, it’s just the knowledge of experience yet it seems that I’m wrong about that. I do feel quite beaten down by some bitter people who can’t accept that experience of rape culture is valid and that their actions may perpetuate it,that their solutions have never worked. Yet I’m being told again that their way is the only way.

               None of these people ask for further information when they don’t understand a concept or an experience. They immediately go into a reactive stance, and get aggressive when asked to support their own position. Yet they complain about communication?

               You’ve no idea how grateful I am to weka for pushing on with this, and to all the men out there that get what she is saying. Obviously the discussion has to end somewhere, and once again the hijacking of something really important – an opportunity for the voice of people affected by sexual violence to be heard – by a group of people who think it’s all about there own safe position in society seems to have done it again.
               • wtl …

                 16 November 2013 at 9:57 pm

                 I see your point. You are correct, this conversation should be about people affected by sexual violence, not people who are upset that they feel blamed for the problem. As my contribution here and above obviously is not really helping with the real issue, at hand, I’ll leave it at this.
               • weka …

                 16 November 2013 at 10:08 pm

                 + infinity, miravox

                 I’m wondering if we should take the discussion somewhere else for a while. Not that we stop here (no way am I ceding this space after all the hard work), but that we also go somewhere where we don’t have to deal with the constant derailment. The Hand Mirror perhaps?

                 This might be a good place to start

                 http://thehandmirror.blogspot.co.nz/2013/11/saturday-16-november-end-rape-culture.html
                 • miravox …

                   16 November 2013 at 10:33 pm

                   Thanks for the link weka – I’ll pop over later – have some real world stuff to do first…

                   Agree about ceding the space too 🙂
               • just saying …

                 16 November 2013 at 10:40 pm

                 And yet… the people who are dropping out of this conversation over the past week are those who have been sexually assaulted and those who have been and continue to be belittled by rape culture. Go figure.

                 I came into this debate late and not because I wanted to join in, but because I felt I had a responsibility as others were being hurt and/or burned out.

                 One point to those who feel they are “moderating” between two sides. The pain caused by ignorant rape apology comments cannot be compared with the offence felt by those making such remarks when they are called on them. To imply equivalence is itself ignorant and offensive. And yet I hear over and over RL, VTO and Xtasy demading that their offence take precedence over the feelings of survivors. That in itself is a manifestation of rape culture.

                 It is also distressing to hear people repeately making false claims about their offence – distorting, exaggerating and straight out lying about what has been said – such as that they have been accused of being rapists when no-one has said any such thing. I guess they have to make up such statements because saying ‘I’m offended because I’m a man and rapists are mainly men’ sounds patently fucking ridiculous.

                 Who in this conversation is more likely to be being harmed – depression, sleepless nights, renewed shame and anxiety, and who goes away feeling they’ve dealt to those feminist types with no lingering adverse effects whatsoever?
                 • RedLogix …

                   16 November 2013 at 11:07 pm

                   And yet I hear over and over RL, VTO and Xtasy demading that their offence take precedence over the feelings of survivors.

                   ummm … “in your head dude”

                   Who in this conversation is more likely to be being harmed – depression, sleepless nights, renewed shame and anxiety, and who goes away feeling they’ve dealt to those feminist types with no lingering adverse effects whatsoever?

                   Fair enough. Although you are making an assumption there about my state of mind too. And putting ‘uppity feminists in their place’ is absolutely the last thing on my mind. Really.

                   And it occurs to me that by analogy … the only people who should talk about war, why it happens and how to stop it, are ex-soldiers suffering from PTSD. Everyone else gets to STFU. I guess it makes sense on one level.
                   • weka …

                     16 November 2013 at 11:41 pm

                     Still point scoring RL? Why not address the substantive parts of js’s comment?

                     Spot on js.

                     “I guess they have to make up such statements because saying ‘I’m offended because I’m a man and rapists are mainly men’ sounds patently fucking ridiculous.”

                     lolz.
                   • just saying …

                     17 November 2013 at 12:09 am

                     … the only people who should talk about war, why it happens and how to stop it, are ex-soldiers suffering from PTSD. Everyone else gets to STFU. I guess it makes sense on one level.

                     About what it is like to be a soldier yeah, the voices of soldiers should take precedence, especially over those who don’t know what it’s like to be a soldier, haven’t studied any of the research, and yet insist they know better.
                   • weka …

                     17 November 2013 at 12:22 am

                     “the only people who should talk about war, why it happens and how to stop it, are ex-soldiers suffering from PTSD. Everyone else gets to STFU. I guess it makes sense on one level.”

                     You still don’t get it. There are plenty of non-survivors in these conversations. The reason you are getting a negative response is because of what you are saying, not that you have an opinion you are expressing.
                   • RedLogix …

                     17 November 2013 at 12:25 am

                     It is also distressing to hear people repeately making false claims about their offence – distorting, exaggerating and straight out lying about what has been said – such as that they have been accused of being rapists when no-one has said any such thing.

                     Now where have we had that sort of thing before?

                     I’ll say this one last time. When we use the phrases ‘rape culture’, ‘rape apologists’ and ‘rape enablers’ and insist on how ‘ubiquitous’ it is … the connotation they come loaded with is plain enough. It’s the old ‘all men are (potential) rapists’ dressed up in more fashionable garb.

                     Of course this doesn’t take any precedence over the actual experience of rape. But we aren’t actually discussing that here. I’ve never seen any forum where that is being specifically discussed and I’d never consider my perspective relevant in such a space.

                     The Standard is first and foremost a political forum, and this topic is essentially gender politics. While the community here tolerates a pretty broad range of opinion and viewpoint on most topics, giving even the crudest trolls their day in the sun …. on this subject even respectful, sincere and thoughtful contributions are offending and hurting people.

                     Clearly we aren’t up for it. OK my sliver of bandwidth is up. Best wishes to you all.

                     @js

                     Yes this I agree with. And while the experiences of soldiers is central to understanding the brutality and horror of war, surely it does not preclude a wider discussion either.
                   • weka …

                     17 November 2013 at 12:36 am

                     “I’ll say this one last time. When we use the phrases ‘rape culture’, ‘rape apologists’ and ‘rape enablers’ and insist on how ‘ubiquitous’ it is … the connotation they come loaded with is plain enough. It’s the old ‘all men are (potential) rapists’ dressed up in more fashionable garb.”

                     Yeah that’s right, RL, your intepretation of what I say should take precedence over my own meaning. God, do you actually listen to what you are arguing here. The arrogance and gall of telling women what they mean in a thread like this is reaching breathtaking proportions.

                     As far as I can tell you are the only one who believes what you just said (maybe vto too).

                     Yes, political space. Those phrases are politicised and are no different than talking about capitalism or neoliberalism. Or racism or sexism…
                   • McFlock …

                     17 November 2013 at 12:39 am

                     When we use the phrases ‘rape culture’, ‘rape apologists’ and ‘rape enablers’ and insist on how ‘ubiquitous’ it is … the connotation they come loaded with is plain enough. It’s the old ‘all men are (potential) rapists’ dressed up in more fashionable garb.

                     Oh ffs.
                   • RedLogix …

                     17 November 2013 at 1:03 am

                     God, do you actually listen to what you are arguing here. The arrogance and gall of telling women what they mean in a thread like this is reaching breathtaking proportions.

                     I’m surprised you want to argue that language and connotation are not relevant to communication. IIRC feminists were at the forefront of bringing that idea to a wider understanding.

                     And if you think I’m the only man who might react to the ‘rape culture’ messaging like this, consider just how many are not participating in this thread. And don’t even care enough to try.

                     Way up above locus offered this definition:

                     imo a ‘rape apologist’ is any male that supports the idea that men can be excused from sexual opportunism and/or predatory or bullying sexual behaviour, because men are somehow “victims” of their hormones or of societal norms or because they were egged on by women (or by girls) being friendly or looking them in the eye or wearing short skirts or by being friendly and then saying no.

                     That works for me. Probably works for most men if you actually asked them.
                   • McFlock …

                     17 November 2013 at 1:33 am

                     There’s a difference between “all men are rapists” and “all men are potentially rapists. The second is when a quarter of women have been raped, often by not just men they felt safe with but men who were supposed to protect them, from family to police to venue security to employers. Rapists don’t wear “Rapist” signs around their necks. So how can trust be earned, when protectors suddenly turn into rapists?

                     I also have difficulty believing that you think using two words instead of a paragraph defeats the point.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     17 November 2013 at 1:42 am

                     Men are a suspect class of persons.
                   • McFlock …

                     17 November 2013 at 2:17 am

                     no, CV.

                     Men are a powerful class of persons.
                     And with that power comes danger for those less powerful.
                   • weka …

                     17 November 2013 at 8:37 am

                     Red, you don’t get to define what rape culture is. That you think you do is part of the problem here.
         • karol 7.1.2.1.3

           17 November 2013 at 7:42 am

           Or it can remain more of an echo chamber for the more dominant masculine views.
           • Rogue Trooper 7.1.2.1.3.1

             17 November 2013 at 1:45 pm

             that would not be helpful at all. 😀
   • QoT 7.2

     16 November 2013 at 8:48 pm

     have been pushed a bit further than the reality out there may warrant

     1 in 4 women, 1 in 8 men, much higher rates for women of colour, trans people, and people with disabilities, and multiple independent reports on a systemic police culture which re-victimizes survivors and allows rapists to walk free.

     But boo fucking hoo the meanie feminists hurt your fee-fees.
     • McFlock 7.2.1

       16 November 2013 at 9:21 pm

       well said
       • Not Another Sheep 7.2.1.1

         17 November 2013 at 2:29 am

         1 in 4 women, 1 in 8 men – The ratio is NOT a rape statistic !!!
     • NickS 7.2.2

       16 November 2013 at 10:29 pm

       This, with an anvil fired from SPACE on top.
       • Rogue Trooper 7.2.2.1

         16 November 2013 at 11:22 pm

         from the Acme Corporation Road Runner Defense Shield.
     • Not Another Sheep 7.2.3

       17 November 2013 at 2:07 am

       “1 in 4 women, 1 in 8 men”

       The ratios you have given are for child onto adults as victims of sexual abuse. They are ratios from selected studies and international averages.

       They are for all forms of sexual abuse from grooming, sexual conduct with consent induced by certain threats, touching sexually, indecent exposure… to rape and unlawful sexual connection ( the equivalent of a rape charge). The ratios you have quoted include female on female sexual abuse and female on male sexual abuse.

       Women offenders are no less or more violent than man are when sexually abusing their victims. Women sex offenders are also not pre-disposed to selecting as a victim either gender, as in women will cross genders to offend. Women are offenders because they can be. They are not in the main “passive” participators or offend because a male made them do it. In the main women offend alone. ( The experts references below- female authors too).

       You will also find that boys, youth and adult males under report. ( see TOAH-NesT and RPE. “ MOST men are not rapists”. ). So ratio stats above as Kim McGregor will tell you are “best educated estimates” only.

       In the upper region of the North Island from Taranaki across to Gisborne and up through the regions east to west to the Bombays, 87 % of the youth and males who come forward to male survivor help agencies have never formally reported their abuse to ‘authorities’.

       Boys and men as victims of female offenders have very low rates of reporting to authorities.

       25% of those NZ youth and males have been sexually abused by a female. None of them enjoyed it! The trauma and impacts, including long term for both males and female victims are relatively the same.

       And before the erroneous stat from a small skewed, 30 year old prison study is quoted and put out over and over again as a fact, (with the incarcerated S.O. perpetrators only being the study sample -not victims); the vampire syndrome is a myth. Large scale VICTIM studies are only coming through in recent times on both genders. Women who have been CSA victims are just as likely to become adult offenders as men. Recidivism is also similar ( some Very current references below).

       Boys are no less vulnerable than girls to fall prey to being sexually abused. It is across all cultures, socio-economic, genders, ethnic populations- a global problem- not specifically a NZ problem. Men and boys feel and are no less violated or devastated!

       Let’s start at what is considered at the lesser end of offending- Question? How do you think boys and male youth feel, how they are impacted on when they are groped, sexually touched, kissed without consent and without ‘asking for it’ say at a party? How is their body not as ‘sacred’ as a girls? Is this not sexual molestation/ assault? AND will they report it??????????????

       Those ratios have been quoted for decades.
       There are no significant large scale, longitudinal NZ studies. There are “reporting statistics”.

       I think you will also find in a Family Commission report, 2010? that in notifications of abuse on children overall from neglect across the spectrum of abuse MORE women than men are the reported perpetrators now.

       Try Dube (2010) of a longitudinal study sample of 17,000 people. Nearly 40% of CSA perps on boys and adult males are women.

       Then if you need a ‘feminist’ perspective try these very expert women authors.
       When Women Sexually Abuse Men. P. Cook and, Tammy L. Hodo – on The Hidden Side of Rape, Stalking, Harassment, and Sexual Assault of Men by women.
       Female Sexual Predators: Understanding Them to Protect Our Children and Youth. Karen Duncan . Studies involving samples of over 100,000 in here. Women as care givers. Absolutely recommend this newer up to date large scale research !!!

       Try Carla Van Dan’s expert books.
       Female Sexual Abuse of Children: Edited by Michele Elliott

       Female Sex Offenders: What Therapists, Law Enforcement and Child Protective Services Need to Know Julia Hislop. Now this is a good one.

       Try any of J.Hopper’s (PhD) work. Decades of expertise there.

       WE CAN LEND THESE books and materialsTO YOU and more.

       EVERY time gender ratios are used in this way… as in the ‘ oh we suffer more than you’ syndrome, half of a population of children become overlooked, of less importance, have less attention, less preventative education, less help services, less resources from Government; more and more silent, more invisible.

       It is not okay to make any abuse merely one of being about a gender issue. It is detrimental. It creates the notion that one is more deserving of attention. I state categorically that NO! Rape is not okay. BUT neither is all wider dimensions and forms of sexual violations on both genders OK.

       Sexual abuse and violence is not to be justified in this narrow way. The “Rape Culture” is across both genders and if we are to more effectively prevent all abuse the ‘one window’ view is and will continue to be a barrier.

       Misandry perpetrated by women is also a very real cause of sexual violence. Sexual discrimination, denigration of men, violence against men, and sexual objectification of men are manifest in New Zealand too.

       AND I am a raging feminist too. I raise my sons AND daughters with the same principles of It’s NOT ok !!
       • karol 7.2.3.1

         17 November 2013 at 8:06 am

         When it comes to sexual violence against children I do think males and females are both victims of women as well as men. It is in keeping with those with more social (political?) power and physical strength abusing those with less.

         It is not okay to make any abuse merely one of being about a gender issue. It is detrimental. It creates the notion that one is more deserving of attention. I state categorically that NO! Rape is not okay. BUT neither is all wider dimensions and forms of sexual violations on both genders OK.

         I agree no sexual abuse is OK.

         Am I correct in understanding that adult female on adult sexual abuse happens far less often than male adult on adult sexual violence?

         Also, the issue of rape culture is about the way it occurs within the wider culture that is still pretty patriarchal, and where sexism and misogyny impact most negatively on women.

         How do you think boys and male youth feel, how they are impacted on when they are groped, sexually touched, kissed without consent and without ‘asking for it’ say at a party? How is their body not as ‘sacred’ as a girls? Is this not sexual molestation/ assault? AND will they report it??????????????

         One of the things the imasomeone website & tweets show is that this kind of touching, along with verbal harassment, happens to large numbers of women every day. It causes them to alter their behaviours in ways to avoid it. Do men experience such widespread and continual attacks on the sense of autonomy, and well-being?

         You quote TOAH-NesT. Yet they say:

         Sexual violence can be perpetrated by, or against, anyone regardless of their age, gender, sexuality, ethnicity or ability.

         However, not all people are at equal risk of sexual violence and research indicates that risk of being targeted for sexual violence varies according to a range of personal and socio-demographic factors such as gender, age and relationship to the perpetrator. Read more about risk factors for sexual violence here.

         Gender is a major predictor of sexual victimisation, with women having a disproportionately higher risk of sexual victimisation than men. Also, being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered is a risk factor, including victimisation from partners and victimisation that occurs as a result of homophobic, biphobic and transphobic violence.

         Research indicates that young women and Māori women are almost twice as likely to experience sexual violence and young Pacific peoples also report high rates of unwanted sexual contact. In addition to this, studies indicate that sexual violence is more likely to be experiencedby people with a disability and people who have been abused as children or adolescents.

         OFFENDERS
         Just as there is no typical survivor, there is no typical offender. However, research suggests that offenders are more likely to be people that are known to the survivor with over one-third of sexual offences committed by current partners, a quarter a friend, one in 10 by a boyfriend or girlfriend and one in 20 incidents a work colleague. From the Report of the Taskforce for Action on Sexual Violence.

         The National Collective of Rape Crisis statistics for the years 1992-1996 found that 92.6% of survivors knew the offender.

         The majority of perpetrators in a New Zealand Study of survivors of child sexual abuse, were male family members, (with uncles being the most frequently reported perpetrator) with a median age of 21 years or older.

         From what I’ve seen online in the last few days, there are some male survivors who are very supportive of the current resistance and challenges to, and campaign against rape culture.

         I see no people here trying to stop male survivors from contributing. But that is not what the discussion here has been about. It has been about diminishing the impact on women of rape culture and the supporting culture of misogyny and patriarchy.

         I do agree that all survivors of rape and sexual violence need to be reported and respected..
         • Not Another Sheep 7.2.3.1.1

           17 November 2013 at 2:28 pm

           Thank you for the response Karol. I was well aware of the TOAH-Nest and RPE information just as I am well aware of Male Survivor help agencies stance.

           These MS agencies work in professional and collaborative partnerships with a full range of NGOs and Government agents; have been active members of TOAH-Nest since its inception. Unlike on the ground agencies (for first point of help) for sexual violence on women where ‘counselling therapy’ maybe the pre-dominant means of recovery, MS works on the ground with the victims, families, spouses, partners, schools, , mothers, fathers (the wider victims also traumatised and devastated by their loved ones being victims); BOT’s, CAC of NZTC, ACC, whanau groups, part of victim support, police, Courts, Justice and all relevant Ministries….. .

           Every week victims come through MS doors for help, these male youth and men, and their significant others male and female come because they are in crisis, have reached a traumatic, overpowering point in their lives. The male victims come also as referrals from G.O s and NGO’s. They never stop coming in any week and the numbers continue to grow. The majority have all been suicidal and significant numbers brought back from ‘death’. That is one critical way that it is important to not SILENCE or dismiss anyone; the value of every human life is precious.

           Every story is unique and addressed for every individual, uniquely in a total holistic way across all dimensions of damage to them, NO assumptions are made in how it has impacted on them, they are the absolute experts in their own experiences and lives. THEIR voice counts.

           MS addresses in exhaustive and very active ways the broad and very complex, inter-connected underlying issues and impacts of sexual violence and violence of all sorts against ALL genders. MS works on the ground to re-establish losses as it could be put- IT IS is in their legal constitutions to protect all. MS take an immediate stand and responds on hearing even a hint of harm or potential harm on anyone, reports,walks beside and stands up for all victims.

           MS addresses with real help the life interrupted of both male and female.. LONG TERM ( for the life span not just “X” number of counselling sessions) and gives direct support and advocacy in person to have children and adults, back in school or training, safe at ‘home’, have food, have housing, be free of alcoholism and substances, adults brought out of abject isolation to be enabled to be valued, loved, needed and participate again in society, to have monetary benefits to live, jobs, groups to join, be connected back to own cultures respecting the diverse ethnicity of all its victims; direct support at ‘agencies’ as victims; children’s rights and protection first at the foremost of our human rights umbrella. The “IT’s Not Ok” campaign, The Child Matters “Buddy Day”, The child centred safety policies enacted are all integral parts of MS actions and more every day. MS knows that the predominant cause of someone becoming abusive is from the day a child is born and raised; so MS work across helping all ages, all genders with an enormous network of other agents to give a stolen identity and life back. MS helps other agents set up through an incredible amount of ‘government paper work’ for one, as need comes to light such as ethnic communities having no voice.

           MS official agencies keep up-to date practice with current ‘knowledge’ here and internationally. Have contracted academic researchers to work with VICTIMS to look at barriers to reporting here in NZ as one very recent effort. MS are also a close collaborative, officially aligned part of International agencies. MS agents are asked as experts to attend, educate and address various training organisations, Symposiums, Hui etc here and Internationally.

           An example of the narrow confines of a gender view to solve violence was the comment that made an assumption that because a person was sexually touched they merely felt uncomfortable. Thus that assumption has the potential to be then taken up as a fact, that all boys, youth men are all just uncomfortable not harmed. “They should just take it like a man !” right? Juries for example are everyday people and those types of myths and biases exist when they make decisions, the harm is further impacted on BOTH genders; and are at the heart of social reconstructions that continue to be a large part of the problems of enabling violence and long term harm.

           Kim McGregor when posing her question that ‘she would love to know what the men’s groups out there think about this?’ was a ‘troll’ type question to provoke debate and deliberately polarise. She knew full well what they (MS) thought, that MS agencies abhor all violence and that they work to exhaustion on the ground with little resources, long unpaid hours, take crisis calls any hour of the day or night, work to save lives !!!
           McGregor has all of our numbers, she only had to phone immediately, she has attended two major events at least in recent months with all agents of both genders of interconnected, collaborative agents working so hard to address violence. MS applauds her dedication, her commitment, her amazing work yet remembers to applaud and actively work alongside all those many groups and individuals working so hard every day to stop all violence in many, many ways. Your efforts included in that genuinely felt acclamation too, Karol.

           Comments like ” But boo fucking hoo the meanie feminists hurt your fee-fees.” are a verbal violence, abuse that is abhorrent too. Upholding misandry( ( emotional, psychological, spiritual abuse included) is also a way of subversively endorsing that violence is ok- by ‘our’ rules only. It does not help bring on board for starters -support, empathy from any gender that every agency or individual needs to have to have all our voices heard to make real change happen.

           YES ! MS agents and victims cry in genuine sorrow too for any other victim and verge on burnout every day from each and every story and the enormity of work that has to take place in response to each and every victim.
           • karol 7.2.3.1.1.1

             17 November 2013 at 6:44 pm

             I am pleased that so many people are investing so much of themselves in supporting male and female survivors.

             And I agree male survivors also require sensitive support. I also think that in dealing with survivors, discussions of issues of patriarchy etc, may not be relevant or appropriate.

             However, I also think you are managing to disavow the damage of the wider patriarchal and misogynistic culture to women in general. Rape culture impacts on men and women in different ways. This is a political debate, and a debate about ways of organising society and social policy.

             Patriarchy works to maintain the status of the most powerful men through a hierarchical system which encourages and some groups to assert their dominance over others. It does it in ways that tend to privilege men generally and masculine culture. Some women seek to attain power within that system, using fairly masculine ways of behaving. It’s something that more men seem to be able to do than the majority of women.

             And yes, in the wider scheme of things many men are damaged by patriarchy too, even while being quite privileged within that system That is similar to the way many capitalism ultimately damages us all. However, in the shorter term those with most wealth and power are able to live quite well within that society.
       • Rogue Trooper 7.2.3.2

         17 November 2013 at 1:48 pm

         timely
       • QoT 7.2.3.3

         17 November 2013 at 6:13 pm

         My point in using those statistics was to highlight that sexual assault is not a fringe issue. It is not “misandry” to point out that sexual violence disproportionately affects women.
8. RedLogix 8

   16 November 2013 at 9:18 pm

   You want men to take responsibility for stopping doing this? You want men to think about it and identify the issues, sort out the myths from the realities? You want us to hear what you are saying, you want young men to find the courage to confront rape culture against their peer pressure when they encounter it?

   I guess calling us pieces of shit is one strategy. And anytime a man attempts to say anything about his reality .. silencing them is another. Keep up the good work.
   • weka 8.1

     16 November 2013 at 9:27 pm

     “And anytime a man attempts to say anything about his reality .. silencing them is another. ”

     You apparently haven’t noticed the large numbers of men in the blogosphere who have been freely expressing from their reality in the past fortnight. How come they haven’t been getting the response that you do?

     And you haven’t been silenced. What you are experiencing is women consistently refusing to defer to your experience. And then saying that what you are doing is inappropriate.

     “I guess calling us pieces of shit is one strategy.”

     [citation needed for someone calling men as a class pieces of shit].

     Again dude, this is all in your own head.
   • McFlock 8.2

     16 November 2013 at 9:35 pm

     sorry, who called men pieces of shit?

     If you just mean “rape minimiser” or “enabler”, if the hat fits then wear it. Otherwise it obviously doesn’t apply to you.

     It took some hard and raw lessons and self reflection for me to realise that I was also part of the problem. Doing a lot of hospo/night work also had something to do with it – just seeing how some men behaved around women without thinking about the impact. Entitlement so entrenched that they were oblivious to the physical cringes I could see across the venue.

     And you know what? I’m still part of the problem. But I hope I’m a smaller part than I was ten years ago, and will be a smaller part still ten years hence.
     • RedLogix 8.2.1

       16 November 2013 at 11:05 pm

       I guess it’s unfair of me to actually link to it:

       http://thestandard.org.nz/will-jt-be-a-labour-mp/#comment-725870

       It was QoT after all and I’ve no problem with her style … I’ve been here long enough not to react badly to that kind of confrontation.

       If you just mean “rape minimiser” or “enabler”, if the hat fits then wear

       Sex and gender politics are a ubiquitous experience … a bit like the weather. We all have an opinion on it. And I do get that some people are experts who have spent decades studying gender ‘climate’. The analogy is not a bad one.

       Despite the fact that climate science brings a lot of hard data to the table there is a pretty wide range of legitimate interpretations of that data, from the relatively cautious like the IPCC through to McPherson’s “catastrophe tomorrow” viewpoint. Now while that range of perspectives may well give rise to some healthy, even heated debate; they are essentially on the same team. Lets be clear, it’s the corporate-funded deniers who are the enemy and an economic model which utterly is dependent upon exploiting the planet.

       Yet this issue of sexual rape culture is even more layered and emotionally complex. While burning fossil carbon is central to our economic model; gender and sexuality is absolutely central to our identity.

       The ancient problem with power is that it is easy for people to conflate institutional, organisational or cultural power with personal power and entitlement. Then add in a whole range of class and cultural variations, and throw in the still potent legacy of religion. And for good measure cast your eye over the astounding range of ways in which thousands of human societies over both history and geography have resolved the question of gender relationships.

       Now the solution to climate change is to show people a better way forward. If we want people to stop using fossil burning cars for instance, demanding they walk isn’t going to generate much response toward voluntary change. What will work, what is in demand .. for those who have the option to buy them … are the electric and hybrid cars that are a step away from oil burners. Or a whole range of other positive ideas that ordinary people can sign on to, that make sense to us personally.

       Now the social reality for men is this; if you show weakness, if you lack confidence, if you are poor and unemployed, if you lack access to wealth, privilege or power of some kind … then sexually you are going to be metaphorically walking.. The ‘desirable’ women will choose elsewhere. So when you tell them you are going to ‘dismantle the patriarchy’ …. at some instinctive level you are poking a burnt stick into the heart of that reality.

       Hard science, one of the most successful and powerful forces in human history, has been telling us about the urgent need dismantle our current technical and economic model for at least three decades. Last year we had a record increase in atmospheric CO2 levels.
       • Rogue Trooper 8.2.1.1

         16 November 2013 at 11:28 pm

         that second-to-last paragraph captures an aspect of reality for many males. Beware the Backlash. Well, better go and see what Jack Reacher is modelling for men this chapter.
       • McFlock 8.2.1.2

         16 November 2013 at 11:45 pm

         “Weather” is usually a macro or merely local problem.

         We are not constantly aware, even subconsciously, that all of a sudden hailstones like golf balls can suddenly strike. Even in the security of our own bedroom. And after a while we never even notice the constant odour that surrounds our society, like the smell of a city, until we move away from it.

         And with weather, in the continuum of “legitimate” opinion, even the IPCC say there is a major problem. “Rape culture” is when people think the problem is actually the good lads posting the stories on facebook, or that it’s just “a bit of a bum deal” that people should get over.

         So when you tell them you are going to ‘dismantle the patriarchy’ …. at some instinctive level you are poking a burnt stick into the heart of that reality.

         I would have thought that people reading a political blogsite might actually take the time to understand what was being said. But either way, it’s not like the extensive efforts people have made to discuss this with you went straight from “dismantling the patriarchy” to “misogynist piece of shit”.

         Oh, and “I guess it’s unfair of me to have made a claim about a single comment almost a week ago in all these threads without actually linking to it”.
       • miravox 8.2.1.3

         17 November 2013 at 1:20 am

         Or:

         Now the social reality for females is this; if you show weakness, if you lack confidence, if you are poor and unemployed, if you lack access to wealth, privilege or power of some kind … then sexually you are going to be metaphorically meat…

         Of course any woman can be are used and abused, just as it’s definitely not poorer, men lacking in wealth, privilege and power who invariably, or who are the only men who, go treat women as a thing they can just have.

         And it’s male power that is the burnt stick in the heart of that reality.

         Actually I feel quite offended for working class men in that sentence. No, not quite – very… you’ve just labelled them, as a group as misogynists and potential rapists, imo.
         • RedLogix 8.2.1.3.1

           17 November 2013 at 1:32 am

           Wasn’t an ‘either/or’ truth …could be a ‘both’. Quite clearly both genders experience power and it’s imbalance in our society in quite different ways.

           Is it not obvious that if you want men to change their behaviour then maybe their perspective is just a little pertinent?

           No, not quite – very… you’ve just labelled them as misogynists and potential rapists, imo.

           ummm,… “in your head dude”. I’m genuinely struggling to quite see how you reached that idea.
           • Colonial Viper 8.2.1.3.1.1

             17 November 2013 at 1:48 am

             So I understand this right. Men have 100% of the responsibility and culpability. Therefore men also have 100% of the control, influence and power re: rape culture. Women have 0% control, influence and power.
             • McFlock …

               17 November 2013 at 2:24 am

               I might go so far as to say that for each individual act where the man is the rapist, but not the culture.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 17 November 2013 at 2:26 am

                 I don’t think that can be correct.
                 • McFlock …

                   17 November 2013 at 2:35 am

                   If both parties had control over the act, it wouldn’t be rape.

                   But everyone has some influence over the cultures they are part of (though some more than others).
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     17 November 2013 at 2:39 am

                     How can everyone have some level of control or influence over rape culture? That doesn’t sound right.
                   • McFlock …

                     17 November 2013 at 2:49 am

                     Some more than others, as I said.

                     Some are in a position of power to be able to change the legal system so that sirvivors aren’t victimised again at the trial.

                     Others can intervene if they are present and realise someone else is possibly being forced into a situation they want to avoid.

                     Others can merely speak out and let people know that at least some members of society think it’s not okay.

                     Others can do none of those things when they were in fact able, and by their ommission help the situation remain the same.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     17 November 2013 at 11:13 am

                     OK. Thanks McFlock. It’s good to know that both men and women can do many things to influence different aspects of rape culture.
             • RedLogix …

               17 November 2013 at 2:29 am

               When it comes to the specific question of sexual assault it is simply 100% up to men to stop doing it.

               As I’ve said before, I can’t even figure out quite why they do it. If nothing else it seems to me that the risk reward ratio has to be appallingly low.

               But as Puddlegum put it elsewhere .. men rape because they can.. And they only can because traditionally men have better access to economic, social and legal privilege than most women. It is worth asking why and how this imbalance came about, and what are the drivers which maintain it.

               Once we understand this, then it becomes plausible to think about the points at which this structure can be changed.

               The parallel with the issue of gross economic inequality is useful. Asking the 1% (or 0.01% hyperweallthy) to simply give up their privilege is a forlorn hope. They’re not going to do it voluntarily even though it’s in their best interests to do so.

               We could just hang them all… but in reality that doesn’t make the fundamental problem go away. All that happens is another group of predators take their place. And passing laws preventing the accumulation of wealth never quite turns out to have entirely the desired effect because people are very clever at subverting rules they don’t really believe in.

               Imagine however if the wealthy saw their fortunes not as a tool of power, but as an opportunity for service. And that the wider community both expected, supported and respected them in this. Suddenly the whole model of wealth changes its connotations from being inherently predatory and exploitative, to something constructive and justified.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 17 November 2013 at 2:34 am

                 Now you’re talking mate. And not just an opportunity for service. A burden of responsibility.
               • Not Another Sheep …

                 17 November 2013 at 2:49 am

                 “When it comes to the specific question of sexual assault it is simply 100% up to men to stop doing it.” – STOP DOING it?

                 Therefore:- One hundred per cent of sexual assault is committed by men.

                 What dark unlit place without information have you been living in?
                 • RedLogix …

                   17 November 2013 at 3:11 am

                   Oh I was replying in the context of the discussion; I’ve already been beaten up for going off topic , but yes I do realise that there is a wider issue.

                   Above you wrote:

                   How do you think boys and male youth feel, how they are impacted on when they are groped, sexually touched, kissed without consent and without ‘asking for it’ say at a party? How is their body not as ‘sacred’ as a girls? Is this not sexual molestation/ assault? AND will they report it

                   I had that exact experience about the age of 17. It was more awkward than violating, and it certainly never occurred to me to report it.
             • weka …

               17 November 2013 at 8:42 am

               So I understand this right. Men have 100% of the responsibility and culpability. Therefore men also have 100% of the control, influence and power re: rape culture. Women have 0% control, influence and power.

               CV, where did you get that idea from? Because it’s not what has been said in ts in the past week or two. It’s so not what’s been said that I find your statement quite strange. Can you please clarify? Maybe give a few examples?
           • miravox 8.2.1.3.1.2

             17 November 2013 at 2:00 am

             “I’m genuinely struggling to quite see how you reached that idea.”
             Yep, I just imagined the rest of the sentence that would read ‘so they take what they can get’

             CV – Rapists have 100% of the responsibility and culpability for raping.
             Women (or girls, boys, or other men) do not control whether they get raped or not. They can control their own behaviour, but they cannot know if a (usually) man is going to. Some can be talked out of proceeding, but that’s incredibly unlikely.

             As for how much power women who “show weakness, if you lack confidence, if you are poor and unemployed, if you lack access to wealth, privilege or power of some kind” have – I reckon it’s a bit less than RL’s metaphorically sexually walking man.

             This is not a generalisation that all women have less power than all men.
             • Colonial Viper …

               17 November 2013 at 2:11 am

               This is not a generalisation that all women have less power than all men.

               I was talking specifically about whether womens’ level of control, power and influence around rape and rape culture is 0%; not any other area in general vis a vis males.
               • miravox …

                 17 November 2013 at 2:33 am

                 I’m not going to quantify a subjective statement. I’ve said what I believe about the responsibility for rape and as far as rape culture goes – I believe there are societal causes, it’s not a ‘blame’ issue.

                 Jeepers cv, you think I don’t have sons, a male partner, father, male friends and relatives that I have good relationships with – who I love and in no way ‘blame’ for rape culture? You think I don’t understand that they may they tell filthy jokes (although I might let them know it’s not appropriate), look at attractive girls, and some probably watch porn? Do you think my sons don’t know that I believe they should treat people with consideration and respect and not do things they might regret?

                 For me this is not about blame – that’s your hang up.
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   17 November 2013 at 2:37 am

                   Wrong. I was talking about influence, power, culpability, responsibility for rape culture. You brought up the word “blame.” Not me.
                   • miravox …

                     17 November 2013 at 2:42 am

                     Sorry if I misread “culpability” for blame.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     17 November 2013 at 2:46 am

                     No probs, it’s very late. Have a good evening.
       • QoT 8.2.1.4

         17 November 2013 at 6:17 pm

         Oh boo hoo, I called you a piece of shit because you were acting like a piece of shit. In a thread where you repeatedly have a cry about how many rapists would be locked up if we treated rape seriously. Quelle horreur!
9. vto 9

   17 November 2013 at 9:57 am

   Hope the day went well for those who participated.

   As for the debate, I think it was weka who said above that it should be women who lead the debate and take it where it should or will go. Good idea. I’m out. All the best in resolving it without the input of half the population.
   • weka 9.1

     17 November 2013 at 10:08 am

     That’s right vto, if men can’t be in charge, if they let women lead the debate, that means they are automatically out of the conversation 🙄

     This is what you really fail to understand. That men can give up their privilege and be in an egalitarian relationship with other genders. You seem to think that men giving up their privilege means that men have to be on a lower order somehow.
     • vto 9.1.1

       17 November 2013 at 10:17 am

       Your second paragraph is your assumption. Again. And I note you said this further above, when it comes to reading meaning into others posts (was with RL)..

       ” your intepretation of what I say should take precedence over my own meaning. God, do you actually listen to what you are arguing here. The arrogance and gall of telling women what they mean in a thread like this is reaching breathtaking proportions.”

       stop telling me what I mean. listen to your own advice.
       • weka 9.1.1.1

         17 November 2013 at 11:03 am

         And yet you don’t bother to tell me what you actually think or mean. More evasive, slippery manipulation.
         • vto 9.1.1.1.1

           17 November 2013 at 11:10 am

           which comment are you referring to?
           • weka 9.1.1.1.1.1

             17 November 2013 at 11:33 am

             9.1.1

             If you think I made an incorrect assumption, why not clarify what you mean previously? (9).
             • vto …

               17 November 2013 at 11:42 am

               here is what I mean, clarified for you;

               “Hope the day went well for those who participated.

               As for the debate, I think it was weka who said above that it should be women who lead the debate and take it where it should or will go. Good idea. I’m out. All the best in resolving it without the input of half the population.”

               Honestly, that you always assume other things are meant really points to your failing, not mine. That is what I said and that is what I mean. Which part confuses you?
               • weka …

                 17 November 2013 at 6:37 pm

                 Letting women lead doesn’t exclude half the population. As I already said. What part of that don’t you understand?
                 • Colonial Viper …

                   17 November 2013 at 9:28 pm

                   First rule of politics is that power has to be taken. It is never given.
                   • karol …

                     17 November 2013 at 9:30 pm

                     Ah, yes, CV. And that is aligned with the one about people protecting their privilege.

                     Certainly seen a lot of that.
                   • weka …

                     17 November 2013 at 9:52 pm

                     “First rule of politics is that power has to be taken. It is never given.”

                     First rule of patriarchal politics is that power has to be taken. It is never given.

                     fify 😉
                   • vto …

                     17 November 2013 at 10:31 pm

                     first rule is pause briefly and think
   • greywarbler 9.2

     17 November 2013 at 1:00 pm

     vto and cv
     Congratulations you strugglers. You have done as well as possible in attempting to discuss this matter.
     I think this sets out the position.
     There are – Strong emotions of grievance here.
     Women mainly, who feel anger and solidarity over that grievance.
     There is something insidious in the culture that perpetuates the wrong behaviour causing the grievance.
     The wrong behaviour is not regarded seriously enough, is enabled in law and by a hedonistic and alcoholic culture, and by ambivalent police action and protection.
     There appears to be in society an unwillingness to make changes to the culture and the laws to
     amend this lack of response.
     There is stalemate – people can see something is wrong but blame floats around and there are arguments that don’t lead to a change in the culture.
     There is an outcry and protests against the lack of action.
     Each side blames the other and both refuse to admit any responsibility for participation in the culture.
     The answer is to change the culture but there is stasis.
     The situation continues.
     The anger and emotion is high.
     Anyone opening their mouth is accused of premature inappropriate opinions and supporting the insupportable rape culture.
     The angered women develop a close warm supportive culture and repel suggestions about improving the situation because they are steeped in ideas of fault and blame for the other side.
     No-one is prepared to change the status quo.
     There is a loss of respect between each side. Lacking is a feeling of true friendship, restraint, trust and respect between male and female. There is little societal message to keep sex as a special experience, instead allowing curiosity, media and peer pressure to rule and suggest participating in sex as acceptable entertainment.
     • just saying 9.2.1

       17 November 2013 at 1:42 pm

       A year or two ago, I was called out for a comment I made at ‘The Hand Mirror’ that reflected (and therefore supported) rape culture. It stung for a while but it really gave me cause to think long and hard.

       For what it’s worth here’s how I see it. Patriarchy is ‘in’ all of us. We have all been encultured with it. It is a big part of the default settings with which we have learned to perceive and understand the world. We can’t undo our conditioning but we can, in some circumstances, think about it and change our minds and then work at speaking and acting accordingly. I believe that in the long run, it is in all our best interests to eliminate patriarchy, but then I think its in all our best interests (and not just in the best interests of the poor) to end all systems of socio-economic inequality and exploitation.
       • Rogue Trooper 9.2.1.1

         17 November 2013 at 1:58 pm

         just seeing the male of a couple generally driving, when statistics support the position that women are safer drivers.
         • Not Another Sheep 9.2.1.1.1

           17 November 2013 at 8:37 pm

           Now that’s being a mischievous rogue… .
           http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/19882814/man-run-over-by-partner-seriously-injured/
           • Rogue Trooper 9.2.1.1.1.1

             17 November 2013 at 11:26 pm

             Yes, it looked ugly on the news footage.
       • vto 9.2.1.2

         17 November 2013 at 8:53 pm

         ” I believe that in the long run, it is in all our best interests to eliminate patriarchy”

         absolutely not. why would the world’s peoples throw out the most commonly utilised system of all time when it has got us this far?

         surely it must be more of a pulling alongside the beauty of others
         • marty mars 9.2.1.2.1

           17 November 2013 at 9:17 pm

           you get your jollies baiting people and deliberately causing distress to others – what a big man you are you sad shit.
         • RedLogix 9.2.1.2.2

           17 November 2013 at 9:35 pm

           absolutely not. why would the world’s peoples throw out the most commonly utilised system of all time when it has got us this far?

           Well I still like Jared Diamonds great line that ‘that the invention of agriculture may have been humankind’s worst mistake, one we have yet to recover from’.

           With agriculture came property, hierarchy, militarisation and the appearance of intensely patriarchal warrior cultures whose brute values are the very essence of misogyny. Values that still underpin the unspoken assumptions and mores of our own society.

           Obviously the ferment and turmoil of these aggressive patriarchal cultures delivered us great many material accomplishments, cultural and scientific … but at the cost of a rapacious exploitation of the planet, gross population overshoot and an endless catalog of cruelty, crimes and misery we’ve inflicted on each other.

           The few remaining pre-agricultural societies that we’ve been able to examine, despite the obvious material deficiencies of their lives, are generally happier and way less emotionally dysfunctional that we are. Maybe they are doing something we’ve forgotten.

           I’m not for a moment suggesting that we should ditch the baby of 10,000 years of history; but we could contemplate changing the bathwater.
           • marty mars 9.2.1.2.2.1

             17 November 2013 at 10:07 pm

             I quite like Jung especially this from wiki, “patriarchy may be seen as an expression of a stunted, immature form of masculinity and thus as an attack on masculinity in its fullness as well as on femininity in its fullness.”

             That’s what I see – a stunted, immature form of masculinity that distorts true masculine values. And I feel that the advocates of patriarchy are the enemies of men and women. They have some privilege and power and they are going to hold it come hell or high water and if anyone is in the way, well too bad.

             masculine values have been distorted almost beyond recognition by patriarchy – it is time for men to reclaim their true masculine values by opposing this imposter system.
             • karol …

               17 November 2013 at 10:21 pm

               Hmmm… Jung: an interesting character, a href=’http://jungiancenter.org/essay/jung-man-part-v’>but not one I’d look to for as a role model for a new/old kind of masculinity, given how he treated his wife and family – not to mention affairs with other women, including patients.

               He had some interesting/significant ideas though.
           • vto 9.2.1.2.2.2

             18 November 2013 at 8:50 am

             Not sure about your brief history of how we arrived at this point mr logix but agree in kind with your conclusion, which is what I was getting at with my comment about pulling alongside the beauty of others……

             ….. rather than throw out the whole shemozzle that apparently is patriarchy, bring alongside other systems like matriarchy etc which can round out some rough edges and enhance the useful bits, as well as bring in improvements to add on.

             ……….

             you know – it is pretty astounding that even when I post something in support of change and bringing other systems like matriarchy up alongside, I still get hammered. Witness the stupid nerd above accusing me of being a sad shit – I think he had been drinking and couldn’t control himself and his urges. But his rage kind of illustrates some of the extremes in this debate. To be avoided.
     • joe90 9.2.2

       17 November 2013 at 2:16 pm

       I doubt you could get it more wrong if you tried GW. This isn’t about sex, sides, hurt feelings or any of the quaint notions above – this is about women and their right to go about their lives in safety.

       Just for a moment imagine that events like this(sexual violence so a fucking BIG *trigger warning*) were part of the discussion – my guess would be a royal commission at the very least.
       • RedLogix 9.2.2.1

         17 November 2013 at 10:41 pm

         joe,

         If anything remotely like that happened in NZ to either gender you would indeed have your royal commission. That is sexual violence at the very worst end of the scale that we would not tolerate in any shape or form for an instant.

         But where do we draw the other end of the scale? Exactly what are women defining as “the right to live in safety’?

         For instance if a man looks at an attractive and skimpily dressed woman at any level below her chin … is that ‘unsafe’? That’s not a hypothetical question; we only have to look at the Middle Eastern purdah cultures to see one very real answer to it.

         Or if a person drinks a little too much and has sex that the next day they really regret .. is that ‘unsafe’? Again not a hypothetical question, if a drunk person cannot give consent, then this definition has obvious ramifications for any person who has ever mixed sex and alcohol.

         At the worst end of scale it is easy to discriminate between rape and sex in a way that isn’t contentious. But as we move closer towards the lessor end of the scale we find the boundary between them becomes blurred and entangled by an immense variety and range of sexual values and experience. The most cursory scan of the internet informs of this comprehensively.

         If we were talking about physical assault for instance we would not have this problem; we live in a world where there is no need for people to be assaulting each other in any fashion whatsoever. We can solve this problem by agreeing not to assault each other (even our children). By contrast sex is ubiquitous. It’s not something people will stop doing.

         Many societies have tried to solve this problem by the men telling the women that their sexuality either didn’t exist, or was dangerous and had to be locked up, shamed or otherwise suppressed in order not to tempt men into sin. This is not hypothetical, these societies are still very much in evidence around the world and we ourselves, in the face of mob hysteria and moral panic, could well revert to this model by default.

         The answer ‘listen to what women want’ is of course a simplistic slogan. I’ll happily take on board the idea that it’s well time men backed off from their old habit of dominating the conversation … but if it’s meant to structurally privilege some female voices over male ones then I’d call it as a dangerous authoritarian demand.

         Not only do women speak with a wide range of highly disparate voices; but as the thread above amply demonstrates the fundamental issues of power, dominance and privilege are universal and transcend both genders.
         • joe90 9.2.2.1.1

           17 November 2013 at 11:03 pm

           RL,
           It’s getting on, I’m starting to sag and I’ve got a big day ahead of me so I”ll try and respond in a day or two.
       • weka 9.2.2.2

         17 November 2013 at 11:19 pm

         Joe, that Guardian article is a hard read, but it’s also an illustration of why rape is about power. That the most powerful (men) would be raping those with less power as a way of controlling (and destroying) people makes complete sense.
     • Not Another Sheep 9.2.3

       17 November 2013 at 2:49 pm

       Fully endorsed GW. Very reflective. A very thought provoking and action provoking post to truly forward progress to change.
       • karol 9.2.3.1

         17 November 2013 at 9:23 pm

         Yep. gw is at the forefront of the campaign for change here in the face of rape culture.
         • Rogue Trooper 9.2.3.1.1

           17 November 2013 at 11:37 pm

           ok, i chuckled. 😉
     • miravox 9.2.4

       17 November 2013 at 9:20 pm

       I don’t want to comment on this, but also don’t want the unsaid indicate presumed agreement.

       You’ve got it wrong gw, you haven’t read what I’ve said, and I don’t know where the fault lies with that. But what you write does not represent my position. At All.
       • karol 9.2.4.1

         17 November 2013 at 9:28 pm

         Agreed. As one of the collective hive mind of “The (allegedly) angered (therefore presumably unable to be reasonable/rational/objective) women “, gw definitely doesn’t speak for me.
         • just saying 9.2.4.1.1

           17 November 2013 at 11:22 pm

           Hell, I hope no-one imagines my response was an endorsement of what GW said.

           Actually Karol, I’d been thinking this morning about what you’d said about when positions in discussions become polarised. And I thought being polarised can be as much about what you don’t say, and the part of the picture that you leave out.
           So, when I felt angry at what gw said, I thought I’d try to “unpolarise” myself by deliberately trying to fill some of the rest of the picture as I see it. So that I could be more true to myself, and who I am. For my own sake really. Nothing much to do with GW’s contribution though a kind of repsonse to it I guess.

           RL, in response to all the points you make here, see my responses on the previous occasions you made them, months ago, when I was able to answer on the assumption that you were actually prepared to listen.
           • RedLogix 9.2.4.1.1.1

             17 November 2013 at 11:50 pm

             Oddly enough you might be surprised to know that I do read your comments with interest and I do have a strong empathy with much of what you say. There’s been too much water under the bridge to be sure, but I’d like to think I’ve never discounted, dismissed or sneered at anything you had to say (and if I have, I offer my belated retraction).

             But if it going to be always upset when we don’t think exactly alike, then I’m not sure I can ever make you happy.
             • just saying …

               18 November 2013 at 8:08 am

               lol
               ‘Upset’ is a quaint term.
               If I didn’t care about a whole lot of things I wouldn’t hang out at the Standard. It’s something most of us have in common.
               When did saying it how you see it come to constitute some kind of feminine frailty?
               But anyway,
               I’m fine thanks RL
           • karol 9.2.4.1.1.2

             18 November 2013 at 7:11 am

             js, I wasn’t thinking about your comment at all when I commented – more that I replied after reading miravox’s comment.

             Excellent idea to take a step back from some discussions and reflect a bit on the bigger picture. If I find myself feeling a bit angry at some comments or online discussion, it’s often better to step back from the keyboard and go do something else. Come back to it when I’ve calmed down.

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