Open Mike 01/10/2018

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1. OnceWasTim 1

   1 October 2018 at 7:04 am

   it’s probably not surprising that there are some in NZ1 want immigrants and refugees to sign up to ‘core Kiwi values’, but watch how the MSM will turn the issue into a mountain.
   Q+A was interesting to watch last night.
   Perhaps all that is necessary is to ensure those immigrants and refugees are familiarised with Te Tiriti and BORA.

   Any thoughts?
   • marty mars 1.1

     1 October 2018 at 7:43 am

     core kiwi values is a bit of rubbish imo.

     I’d get new immigrants to undertake Treaty and colonisation workshops to learn the true history of this country – AND I’d make ALL current citizens do it too.

     So I’d focus on the Treaty and get this country to actually discuss the values associated with that.

     101 – Moana Jackson

     “The Treaty relationship doesn’t talk about consultation. Treaty parties don’t consult- they negotiate, they reach agreement and as long as the Crown is wedded to the idea ‘oh, we’re fulfilling our Treaty obligations if we consult with Māori’ then they’re beginning again from the wrong place.”

     “One doesn’t go to the other and say ‘this is what we’re going to do, what do you think?’ and then, as often happens in the consultation process, then ignores what our people say anyways,” he says.

     Jackson believes a complete reset of approach is required.

     “So, that’s one of those fundamental mind-shifts that has to happen and I’m not sure that the government has got there yet. It still believes it has that superior right to make the final decision.”

     http://www.maoritelevision.com/news/regional/jackson-calls-fundamental-mind-shift-on-treaty-consultation
     • SaveNZ 1.1.1

       1 October 2018 at 8:07 am

       All very well, if everyone knows about the treaty, but if Maori start losing more land and resources and don’t have the funds to fight the ISDS clauses etc or do anything about bad deals (taxpayers now paying 25% of international filmmakers costs but apparently “legal” issues to change it, can’t stop oil and gas even in the face of climate change due to ‘legal’ issues, can’t stop TPPA countries like Singapore buying up NZ property even though we have a housing crisis due to legal issues… looks like Hoki, fresh water fish aint going to be around for long, ). Knowing about treaty issues ain’t going to stop Maori living in cars and being displaced out of major cities and being poisoned by P importers… you actually need law and enforcement to stop that with real laws. (and stop the government signing NZ up to more bad deals…)
       • marty mars 1.1.1.1

         1 October 2018 at 8:18 am

         I don’t really get what you’re saying there.

         Around the world sustainable, environmental and commodification fightback against the system is LED by indigenous peoples. Same here.
         • SaveNZ 1.1.1.1.1

           1 October 2018 at 2:02 pm

           I’m saying NZ needs people to have more than an understanding of the treaty but actual laws, that are enforceable and not costing to litigate, set in stone to protect people who are native or born in a country and therefore don’t have other passports to turn to.
       • solkta 1.1.1.2

         1 October 2018 at 8:31 am

         Maori start losing more land and resources and don’t have the funds to fight the ISDS clauses

         We’ve been around this one a number of times. ISDS stands for Investor-State Dispute Settlement. It is so corporations can sue governments. Maori can not be sued through it.
         • SaveNZ 1.1.1.2.1

           1 October 2018 at 10:36 am

           @ Solkta, Well apparently Singapore investors are welcome to buy up property here… due to CPTPP, the film interests have signed NZ up to a bad deal, hoki depletion… etc etc – the deals government are entering into end up displacing people born in NZ, Maori or otherwise – likewise our flora and fauna being destroyed to make a quick buck.
           • solkta 1.1.1.2.1.1

             1 October 2018 at 11:18 am

             NO, Singapore investors can buy property here due to a previously existing and completely different trade agreement.

             The film deals have absolutely nothing to do with CPTPP.

             The Hoki quota has absolutely nothing to do with the CPTPP.

             Maori cannot be sued under ISDS.

             You just write crap to try and cover your wilful ignorance.
             • SaveNZ …

               1 October 2018 at 1:33 pm

               I’m talking about depleting future generations resource for a quick buck in bad deals, not just CPTPP… of which you seem to be a fan by the look of your constant defence of government trade deals.

               Who cares what trade deal was the one responsible for the Singapore investors being exempt from the OIA which is useless anyway, the point is, there is no forward planning by government in areas such as the film agreements and overfishing or allowing pollution and commerce to deplete natural waterways.

               There seems to be little appetite to change trade agreements such as climate change or housing issues and then future governments are too gutless to pull out of anything stupid previous or their own governments signed previously because of the risks of being sued…
   • SaveNZ 1.2

     1 October 2018 at 7:49 am

     Should make immigration a much longer process of 10 years at least, and have anyone who is convicted of bad behaviour aka scamming, underpaying, trafficking, paying for jobs, criminal convictions/family violence, dowry payments, not having the qualifications they claim to have, etc, etc lose their ability to gain citizenship.

     Not sure how anyone can argue with that. Perhaps they think NZ is a better place with criminals??? Who knows.

     Also remove permanent residency from having free health, super, buying property etc unless the person has met a strict criteria of gaining citizenship over 10 years, which is only a fraction of somebodies life time.

     Lets face it, people like Thiel and probably Handley were only here to get access to OZ citizenship and opportunity by default. Like Thiel have not really seen the guy since all those unmet citizenship promises, but he still is allowed to have that luxury property in Queenstown like he’s here paying taxes and being a normal citizen.

     If you are Chinese and your government only lets you have one passport, time to choose, are you a Kiwi citizen or Chinese citizen?

     If the western governments haven’t heard yet, loud and clear, from the people who they supposedly serve (aka the public not international jet set elite that are busy hoovering up international property, passports and assets and pushing for globalism, aka the ability to just migrate the cheaper work forces in to save money and get around exploitation local laws) that people are tired of being undermined in their own country, then the politicians deserve to be losing the elections for being completely out of touch with reality!
     • solkta 1.2.1

       1 October 2018 at 8:13 am

       Also remove permanent residency from having free health, super,

       So you want these people to have to contribute taxes yet not receive the benefits from those taxes. What are you, Australian or something?

       This discussion is about “kiwi values”. Many of us grew up thinking this included fairness. We either don’t agree what kiwi values are or you don’t have any.
       • greywarshark 1.2.1.1

         1 October 2018 at 10:00 am

         It is hard to discuss possible changes how and why,, and harder when people are criticised rather than their thoughts questioned for what effect they would being about.

         It would be good if kiwi values include the ability to go beyond PC and look at practicality.

         I would think that the discourse could be improved if it follows a set system,
         first referring to a problem, then what the prevailing opinion is and whether that is reasonable, what are the costs etc. And why it is important to act to advance or protect something.

         One thing that concerns me for instance, is the full face Muslim wear for women. I feel it is way of hiding from society. I think the ability to see and be seen is a precious freedom. To walk around as a an ordinary good citizen without fear, and without embedded messages that women should be careful not to mix with men, be seen by them at all.

         It would be a backward step for all NZ women to allow freedom for immigrants to adopt the full-face covering and I don’t accept it as appropriate for choice by applying immigrants, or visiting short-term people.
         • solkta 1.2.1.1.1

           1 October 2018 at 10:10 am

           Actually i think you will find that the right to express yourself through your clothing is provided for under the BoRA.
           • greywarshark 1.2.1.1.1.1

             1 October 2018 at 10:40 am

             I think you will find that there is a right to control on grounds of safety and transparency as in banks forbidding helmets being worn. The people behind burkhas are secretive in their appearance, and of course may be men, and they cannot be seen.

             And in fact this problem may be a reason for the fast adoption of facial checks in institutions. That would be an unintended consequence that needs to be considered.

             And also your reply is of the type I was ceiticising; no attempt to discuss the problrm. Just a a negative reply and a closing off one. How can we examine our values and what are important with that approach.

             I have noticed this approach from you before.
             • solkta …

               1 October 2018 at 11:55 am

               I’m not sure what it is you are actually arguing for. At the moment is is lawful to wear a burkha in public. Your words suggested you did not realise this. Are you suggesting to make this illegal?
               • greywarshark …

                 1 October 2018 at 3:48 pm

                 I am talking about practicality and reason. The Human Rights legislation can’t cover everything. And we all have our rights to think about too. There must be some rights for the incumbents in the country. It isn’t sufficient when there is discussion about anything to shut it down by saying that nothing can be done because there is legislation that seems to allow it.

                 Is it lawful to wear a burkha in public? Is that specified in law?

                 The Human Rights Commission document says:
                 
                 Dress codes and appearance
                 There have been disputes, debates and discussions
                 about clothing and appearance at work. A number of
                 religions have widely and daily worn communal dress and
                 appearance codes that can raise issues in the New Zealand
                 workplace. They can, for example, potentially conflict with
                 dress codes or company uniforms. A number of religions
                 require headgear, such as turbans or skullcaps for men, or
                 headscarves for women, or that men have beards. Other
                 traditions have guidelines about women not wearing trousers
                 or usual men’s attire.
                 Q: i am a sikh. Can i wear my turban at work?
                 a: you can reasonably expect that the request to wear
                 the turban will be considered in good faith. this will
                 require the agreement of your employer. optimally,
                 clothing and personal styles which are worn in
                 accordance with normal, communal religious practice
                 can be reasonably accommodated.

                 Q: Can my employer refuse to allow me to wear a
                 headscarf as part of a company uniform?
                 a: you can reasonably expect that the request to
                 wear the headscarf with the company uniform will be
                 considered in good faith.
                 Ideally this will be discussed and an agreement reached at
                 the time when the terms of employment are negotiated.
                 Where health and safety requirements specify protective
                 clothing or equipment be used and this creates a difficulty,
                 as can other circumstances, such as the wearing of certain
                 types of jewellery, the issue should be considered with the
                 reasonable expectation of finding a practical and acceptable
                 resolution. Employment agreements often include dress
                 codes or workplace policies

                 It does not say anything about the full–face style. A headscarf is all they mention, but that is minor compared to the moving tent that is a burkha.
                 • solkta …

                   1 October 2018 at 9:55 pm

                   I don’t know why you are quoting stuff about dress codes at work. I thought we were discussing wearing the burkha in public. At the moment people have a right to do that. The BoRA protects the right to freedom of expression in any form. Parliament could legislate to override those rights. But you seem to be pulling short of saying that this is what you want.
           • veutoviper 1.2.1.1.1.2

             1 October 2018 at 3:05 pm

             Exactly. This is a useful little pamphlet.

             https://www.hrc.co.nz/files/6014/2388/1002/HRC_Religious-DiversityV6.pdf

             But its crazy here today. I keep thinking it must be April 1 not Oct 1. LOL.
       • patricia bremner 1.2.1.2

         1 October 2018 at 10:40 am

         Now here is the starting point.
         Do we say “Be self-reliant and aspirational with small government (interference)??
         or
         “Uphold shared values of caring kindness and Government to provide the checks and balances”??

         Ah, there is the rub… we have differing ideas of what people and Governments should do.
         We also need to decide where we stand regarding the Treaty. That is fundamental to any future … as is our stance on the environment and climate change.
         And that fool wanted to sort this by branding, via a flag!!
       • SaveNZ 1.2.1.3

         1 October 2018 at 1:41 pm

         Yes let someone come in for 2 years and then give them free super for the rest of their lifetime while they reside in multimillion dollar houses, or allow their relatives in… while our own people are in poverty living in cars… great idea (sarcasm).

         What many migrants are doing is get residency, then leaving and install a satellite family for free health and education and WFF…

         Feed and house the world’s rich, and make Kiwi poor pay for it. What a policy!

         Time the government woke up that global travel is completely affordable to the masses and people are quite happy to travel the world to get the best free health care and super policies, and often it only takes a fake degree and working a crap job for 2 years or paying $30k for a crap job, to get everything else free for the rest of your life and your families life.
       • Jilly Bee 1.2.1.4

         1 October 2018 at 8:05 pm

         I sort of agree with you solkta, though must add that one of my sons and his family have been living in Australia for 14 years now and not having Aussie citizenship, apart from their youngest son who was born there, are unable to access any benefits to date. Said son was made redundant from his job 10 years ago and if it hadn’t been for the substantial redundancy payment made, they would have been in a lot of financial strife. He now has a good position and hopes to stay in Aus until time to retire back in N Z.
     • OnceWasTim 1.2.2

       1 October 2018 at 8:20 am

       SaveNZ and Marty…a quick reply, hopefully more later
       Marty: ” ….. AND I’d make ALL current citizens do it too.” agree, or at least make it part of the school curriculum as a starting point. (Btw, many of those now being suggested as being a ‘problem’ are very familiar with the effects of colonisation)

       SaveNZ: I’m glad you mentioned Thiel, and possibly Handley as well.

       It’s clear that the exploitation and scams are not solely because of people ripping off ‘their own’ as Winnie puts it but we sure as shit shouldn’t be adding to the problem.

       Cheers
       • veutoviper 1.2.2.1

         1 October 2018 at 11:26 am

         SaveNZ is well off beam re Thiel and Handley. See alwyn’s comment and mine at 1.2.3 and 1.2.4 below.
         • OnceWasTim 1.2.2.1.1

           1 October 2018 at 11:54 am

           MY reason for saying I’m glad they were mentioned is more to do with how we view potential immigrants and the perceptions we seem to have had over the years. The points system for a start; the way INZ thought it somehow OK with ‘demographic’ profiling that had a racist component – and we could argue about that all day; the acceptance of applications based on promises of investment; etc, etc
           As for Handley, and as time goes on, I suspect his motivations were more/or as much to do with career ambitions and a desire for an easier life in which to settle down, have a family and all those nice things. Somehow we sometimes don’t seem to consider that others from what are deemed ‘high risk’ nations are not allowed the same sort of ambitions and desires.
           • veutoviper 1.2.2.1.1.1

             1 October 2018 at 1:43 pm

             Right, I now understand your earlier comment and am with you on both your paragraphs above.

             In Handley’s case, as mentioned in The Listener article, he and his family (parents, brothers etc) apparently have been well settled here for decades since moving here from Hong Kong as British citizens. He has apparently been going back and forth between NZ and the US and has not been away for more than three months at a time, but this still basically screwed up his permanent residency status which technically messed up his citizenship eligibility. So IMO opinion his situation is not comparable to others wanting to come here for the first time.
             • SaveNZ …

               1 October 2018 at 2:13 pm

               So his taxes to NZ came from where exactly??? The overseas tax fairy?

               So far he cost the country $100,000+ before he worked a day..

               I don’t blame him for that, clearly the whole recruitment process was as fictional as the ‘Star Trek’ fictional events Clare Curren got excited about.

               Give the government a buzz word and an overseas event, an overseas passport, (or two) add some name dropping, group think, nepotism and they are anybodies…. and don’t notice the guy has never worked a single day as a CTO …
       • SaveNZ 1.2.2.2

         1 October 2018 at 2:04 pm

         At least you started the conversation OnceWasTim…
         • OnceWasTim 1.2.2.2.1

           1 October 2018 at 5:09 pm

           Yep well, that 40 watt banana on the top of my neck had a bit of a brain wave, but then I wondered if the facility already existed. I should take the time to delve deeper instead of just flitting in and out.

           I started the conversation, then MickySavage put up the “KIWI VALUES” post so that now comments are spread between there and Open Mike. The 40 watt banana was thinking that maybe a facility on Open Mike could be installed so that people making comments on Open Mike could assign a tag name (such as Kiwi Values, or Immigration, etc.) for future searches.
     • alwyn 1.2.3

       1 October 2018 at 9:54 am

       “Lets face it, people like Thiel and probably Handley were only here to get access to OZ citizenship and opportunity by default”.
       You have some evidence of this claim do you?
       What is it?

       Anyone with US Citizenship probably has a much better chance of getting Australian Citizenship than does a New Zealand Citizen. The agreement forced on New Zealand back in 2001 by the Australians makes it very hard to get it these days.
       If you go there and get the standard Visa they give to New Zealanders these days there is no ability to turn it into the right to apply for Australian Citizenship.
       It is a dead end visa that lets you work there until they decide you are a nuisance and deport you. Even if you go at 2 and stay for 40 years you won’t get a change of status.
     • veutoviper 1.2.4

       1 October 2018 at 11:25 am

       “… people like Thiel and probably Handley were only here to get access to OZ citizenship and opportunity by default”..

       I hardly ever read your posts because they contain so much ignorance and misinformation but I did skim this one and will not let the above ignorance stand uncorrected.

       FGS, Derek Handley (40 years old) lived in NZ since he was a child, received most of his education here and worked here in his early adulthood. His wife and son are NZ citizens (as is he since Feb 2018). While he had lived overseas for the last 15 years, he has wanted to return to live in NZ for some time. Here is an extract from The Listener in March 2018 which I have already posted several times on TS.

       He was born in Hong Kong in 1978. His father, John, is a Scotsman; his mother, Latifa, is of Chinese, Indian and Malay ethnicity, but after China’s crackdown on protesters in Tiananmen Square in 1989, the family decided to move to New Zealand before the 1997 handover of Hong Kong to Chinese control.

       One of three boys, Derek ran small money-making (and money-losing) ventures from an early age. He did well at school and at university and had co-founded The Hyperfactory by his early twenties.

       He travelled the world from home bases in both New Zealand and the US on a British passport, thanks to his father’s citizenship, and he had permanent residence here; his Kiwi wife, Maya, and their now five-year-old son, Finn, were both New Zealand citizens. Finn, born in the US, also holds US citizenship.

       The article goes on to describe in detail his wish and plans to return to live in NZ (all before he applied for the CTO job some months later).

       https://www.noted.co.nz/currently/profiles/derek-handley-talks-trump-business-and-coming-home/

       alwyn is also correct in what he says re Thiel’s better access to Australia using his US citizenship – and also probably his German citizenship as well (which he still retains as well as his US citizenship and unfortunately his NZ citizenship.)

       Re entry to Australia, Handley is also probably better able to access Australian citizenship etc through his British citizenship than his NZ citizenship.
       • SaveNZ 1.2.4.1

         1 October 2018 at 1:46 pm

         Thanks for the bio of a typical satellite family of Handley, where the kids get a lovely free education in NZ and then go off and pay taxes in another country… so who do you think is going to pay for your retirement and health care, because so far not much has been collected from overseas born but Kiwi educated individuals who somehow failed to get the amount of time in NZ to retain their residency but of course that obstacle was cleared for him… and now another citizen, yippee, it’s not what you know, but who you know it seems.
         • SaveNZ 1.2.4.1.1

           1 October 2018 at 1:49 pm

           Have you got any pearls of wisdom of how Thiel has helped our country, because so far he has profited millions from his Xero investment here, while the government got a few crumbs, so clearly not much of a long term interest once he bought his citizenship?

           But he can come and go to OZ very freely. Wonderful for the businessman of the 21c.
           • veutoviper 1.2.4.1.1.1

             1 October 2018 at 2:52 pm

             I was posting here years ago and warning about Thiel and his influence etc through Palantir and its connections to Five Eyes, plus the other pies Thiel has fingers in. No, he has not helped this country; and he should never have got NZ citizenship. I know a lot more about him than you are ever likely to know and understand.

             Don’t you have some moats to fill, drawbridges to pull up, and parapets to man? Off you go.
             • SaveNZ …

               1 October 2018 at 4:36 pm

               If you think Thiel needed a warning, not sure why you are defending government giving him citizenship when supposedly citizenship is supposed to help NZ people not be a free for all?

               We have the third highest immigration in the world per capita… certainly not working out for about 50% of Aucklander’s who have to leave so that the middle class/rich/scammers of the world can enjoy an easy ride into the easiest citizenship rout around and now it’s spreading around NZ, so won’t be long the rest of the country start getting pissed, when 900 people apply for a rental property in Hawkes Bay or you can’t get a rental property in Rotorua.

               Government is not exactly increasing the state house rentals so not sure where all these rentals are coming from. they might be warm and dry soon, but a ratio of 1 to 900 applicants. Never let the practical get in the way of ideology or a soundbite though. Sarcasm.

               I don’t even understand why the refugees risk their lives to get asylum it’s easier and cheaper to board Air NZ and be a NZ migrant by enrolling in a poly tech and then paying for a job.

               Or just pay a Kiwi domestic abuser (plenty of them apparently and you get citizenship here so easy) and then file for right to reside here through the abuse.

               Nobody seems to be checking how many people are benefiting from (and many of them are scumbags) all the various ways to profit from NZ lazy immigration…

               The government are still back post 1945 when all the 2nd world war migrants came and made places better… in 2018 i being a world citizen is something you purchase… not to stay in a country but to make best use of that opportunity for individual gain and increasingly in NZ at the expense of displacing the local who used to live there but is displaced. And building more houses at 500,000 for a 1 bedroom, for some it’s as affordable as a flight to the moon, but lucky after 2 years living in NZ and earning $120k you also qualify for Kiwi build!
               • veutoviper …

                 1 October 2018 at 4:45 pm

                 I challenge you to find anywhere that I have said that “Theil needed a warning” or “defended government giving him citizenship”.

                 Go on.

                 A clue – you don’t need to go very far up this thread to see what I said re that. But you don’t seem to be able to read very well.

                 As for immigration, refugees, asylum, migration etc – you do not have a clue what you are talking about.
     • Draco T Bastard 1.2.5

       1 October 2018 at 12:14 pm

       Also remove permanent residency from having free health, super, buying property etc

       Much better to just remove permanent residency. The only way to have access to those services is if you’re a citizen.

       Lets face it, people like Thiel and probably Handley were only here to get access to OZ citizenship and opportunity by default. Like Thiel have not really seen the guy since all those unmet citizenship promises, but he still is allowed to have that luxury property in Queenstown like he’s here paying taxes and being a normal citizen.

       Thiel is the perfect example of why we shouldn’t allow dual citizenship. He’s obviously not interested in NZ as he works for the US Administration in ways that damages us.

       If you are Chinese and your government only lets you have one passport, time to choose, are you a Kiwi citizen or Chinese citizen?

       Exactly and we should be doing the same.
       • SaveNZ 1.2.5.1

         1 October 2018 at 1:47 pm

         +1 Draco
2. Ngungukai 2

   1 October 2018 at 7:42 am

   Definitely the NZ Racist First Party
   • greywarshark 2.1

     1 October 2018 at 10:44 am

     Ngungukai
     ‘Don’t be so quick to heave ‘alf a brick, It’s the missus meself and the boys.’
     Just a little recitation from Pam Ayres to break the wall of negativity.

     Jumping up with ready-written flash cards to label everything good or bad doesn’t help if there is a discussion.
3. Sanctuary 3

   1 October 2018 at 8:02 am

   Recently I have taken to calling the bourgeois liberals who dominate the elite political “left” the “new conservatives”, a title I feel best fits their so called social progressivism (which is really just a deeply conservative middle class absolutism that seeks to co-opt alternative lifestyle models into a neoliberal economic and social norm) and their reactionary dislike of any sort of leftist economic program that seeks genuine wealth re-distribution. The Blairites in the UK, and the entire NZ Labour party, IMHO, belong to this new conservative class of intellectual elites while the traditional right is now simply the representatives of the business elites. The average Joe doesn’t get a look in, and worse popular radicalism currently exists primarily only on the right.

   I just read this paper (http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2018.pdf) from Thomas Piketty from last March which kinda confirms my observations –

   “…Using post-electoral surveys from France, Britain and the US, this paper documents a striking long-run evolution in the structure of political cleavages. In the 1950s-1960s, the vote for left-wing (socialist-labour-democratic) parties was associated with lower education and lower income voters. It has gradually become associated with higher education voters, giving rise to a “multiple-elite” party system in the 2000s-2010s: high-education elites now vote for the “left”, while highincome/high-wealth elites still vote for the “right” (though less and less so). I argue that this can contribute to explain rising inequality and the lack of democratic response to it, as well as the rise of “populism”. I also discuss the origins of this evolution (rise of globalization/migration cleavage, and/or educational expansion per se) as well as future prospects: “multiple-elite” stabilization; complete realignment of the party system along a “globalists” (high-education, high-income) vs “nativists” (low education, low-income) cleavage; return to class-based redistributive conflict (either from an internationalist or nativist perspective). Two main lessons emerge. First, with multi-dimensional inequality, multiple political equilibria and bifurcations can occur. Next, without a strong egalitarian- internationalist platform, it is difficult to unite loweducation, low-income voters from all origins within the same party…”

   We desperately need a Momentum style organisation to force the NZ Labour party back to a more traditional leftist position. Don’t be fooled by Jacindamania. Her popularity revived a party that looked about to enter a terminal phase, and she can only mask the ideological vacuum and political cowardice of the likes of Grant Robertson for so long. Once there is no Jacinda, Labour will collapse unless it re-discovers left wing populism. It will be squeezed out of existence by right wing nativism and populism and the the implacable hostility of the establishment business elites, who will see no use for a social democratic alternative to popular hard right they imagine they can control.
   • solkta 3.1

     1 October 2018 at 8:24 am

     Fuck, if people don’t like the Labour Party and want it to be more traditional why don’t they join the thing and make it so? So silly to say that we need an organisation to force an organisation to do something. People are so lazy moaning all the time but not putting in the work required.

     Of course if they did this that would not necessarily make the party re-electable.
     • SaveNZ 3.1.1

       1 October 2018 at 1:56 pm

       Maybe because there are too many abusive fuckwits… a while back a few regulars was posting about how they used to go to Labour or could have been Green events, but it just got worse and worse and more and more ‘woke’ left, so they started feeling uncomfortable… if political parties are not attracting people maybe take a look why, also not everyone has got all this time to swan around political events.. ordinary people have multiple jobs, families etc… politics has not evolved for ordinary people and modern living where you are expected to continuously work.

       I’ve noticed that the Greens in particular seem to have the attitude it is up to their voters to help them with donations, time, surveys etc… politics used to be the other way around where you went to your MP for help…
       • solkta 3.1.1.1

         1 October 2018 at 10:06 pm

         “I’ve noticed that the Greens in particular seem to have the attitude it is up to their voters to help them with donations, time, surveys etc… politics used to be the other way around where you went to your MP for help…”

         What drugs are you on?

         How do you think political parties come to be? Lots of people put in lots of hard work and money and hard work for very little thanks. Other than perhaps Nact, this is how every political party has always functioned in this country.

         Other people, they just do stuff like bleat on the interwebs.
   • tc 3.2

     1 October 2018 at 8:40 am

     Form a proper socialist party then as NZ labour’s a beltway focused steady as she goes entity now i.e. don’t upset the establishment.

     After all this is the party that ACT emerged from.
     • Anne 3.2.1

       1 October 2018 at 9:37 am

       After all this is the party that ACT emerged from.

       Not entirely true. ACT emerged from a small group of people from both Labour and National who wanted to go down the path of market forces controlling government economic and social values. ACT started out with joint leaders, Roger Douglas and Derek Quigley – one from each side of the political table..

       I agree with Sanctuary. Labour has shed its traditional cloak in may ways. Norman Kirk was an exponent of traditional Labour values but it was not long after his demise in 1974 that Labour began to lose its way. The neoliberal experiment of the 1980s finished it off. Nowadays, those in the party who still prefer to follow the more traditional views are inclined to be regarded as the ‘second class’ members.

       That is my view as I have experienced it.
   • ropata 3.3

     1 October 2018 at 8:50 am

     Excellent analysis, Labour does need to work hard to re-engage its much neglected base, if there are more well-intentioned people like Jacinda there is hope.

     To me the elite left resembles the Pharisees, obsessed with trivia and identity politics moral posturing, and failing to nourish the true needs of the people.
     • solkta 3.3.1

       1 October 2018 at 9:00 am

       You’re another one. This “base” you talk of, what are THEY doing?
       • marty mars 3.3.1.1

         1 October 2018 at 10:02 am

         + 1 yep

         Elite left now added with fake left imo as sticks to hit people with.
   • Ad 3.4

     1 October 2018 at 9:35 am

     We – me – are conservative in that sense because we are seeking to conserve all that is being lost: earth, social equity, civic life and institutions, multilateral decisions, solidarity.

     Jacinda is going to be our best PM since Mickey Joseph Javage.

     The elitists are the ones who call for more radical splintering. Like you.
   • Koff 3.5

     1 October 2018 at 9:51 am

     Your analysis was shared by the Guardian’s editorial today, funnily enough, complete with quotes from Pikkety. Think even more radicalised lefties, those who reject the neoliberal status quo, are also mostly educated middle class. Interesting watching the developments in UK Labour, the most left wing for a long time and yet there’s still a big disconnect between the rank and file membership and much of Labour’s working class base. UK Labour is tip toeing around its policy on Brexit as a result. Hopefully their more radical policies might start to address the inequities that led to working class alienation and the rise in right wing populism.
     • Sanctuary 3.5.1

       1 October 2018 at 11:23 am

       “…Your analysis was shared by the Guardian’s editorial today,…”\

       Good Lord, the Guardian editorial writers must read my stuff on the Standard! 😉
4. Ad 4

   1 October 2018 at 9:42 am

   Oil going up for US$100 per barrel.

   Won’t hit US and Canada as much as last time, but will hit our big China, Chile, Western Europe and India markets. Indirectly us.

   And of course directly as the pump. A big headwind to 2019.

   Chop chop Greens with your post-carbon framework.
   • BM 4.1

     1 October 2018 at 9:53 am

     And of course directly at the pump. A big headwind to 2019.

     Which is why this is a one-term government, normal transmission resumes in 2020.
     • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1

       1 October 2018 at 12:24 pm

       What’s the government supposed to do about oil prices?

       They’re going up because of scarcity and the fact that it’s getting harder to drill more. Our little reserves of oil, which the big oil companies can’t find, aren’t going to change that.

       And then there is climate change and global warming that tells us that we can’t actually afford to burn more fossil fuels. Because of that we really should be putting in place a ban on fossil fuelled vehicles.
       • chris73 4.1.1.1

         1 October 2018 at 4:04 pm

         “What’s the government supposed to do about oil prices?”

         Lower the tax take the government takes in
         • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1.1

           1 October 2018 at 7:16 pm

           That won’t do anything except make the country even worse off – but, then, that’s what you want.
     • Exkiwiforces 4.1.2

       1 October 2018 at 3:40 pm

       Ah, pull your head in mate. The price oil has been at record lows since the GFC and just like interest rates, they had to start going up sometime sooner or later. Because you can’t make money with low POL prices just as banks don’t make much money with low interest rates and I believe it’s called the free market as you people like you say the market is always right in a capitalist free market economy?
       • BM 4.1.2.1

         1 October 2018 at 4:00 pm

         What’s the government doing to offset these higher oil prices?
         • Stuart Munro 4.1.2.1.1

           1 October 2018 at 4:27 pm

           Same as the last government – less than nothing.

           I thought righties were supposed to be self reliant? All you need is a little cracker unit for plastic a bit like the old WW2 gas producers & you need never buy petrol again.
         • Exkiwiforces 4.1.2.1.2

           1 October 2018 at 5:35 pm

           Like Government any other Government in a free market economy SFA, as you muppets from keep telling us the market is always right and doesn’t need Government intervention as it would disrupt, disort the market from its true value.
           • BM 4.1.2.1.2.1

             1 October 2018 at 5:49 pm

             What the hell has the free market got to do with petrol taxes, you clown?

             Most of the cost of petrol is in taxes, that’s not the free market doing that, it’s government and now thanks to Labour local council.

             Under National people put up with it because the money was being pumped into all the RONS. they were seeing a return for the taxes spent.

             These days it’s been used for cycleways which no ones uses and public transport, expect voters to get grumpy.
             • Exkiwiforces …

               1 October 2018 at 6:12 pm

               So you want the Government to distort market by subsidiary the cost of fuel by cutting the fuel tax like they do in the MER and most 3rd counties?

               But aren’t we a free market economy? And what’s stopping the retailers from increasing its margin if the government cuts the fuel tax? Can’t have it both ways old boy.

               Either we have a free market economy or we don’t have one at all.
               • BM …

                 1 October 2018 at 6:18 pm

                 Jesus Man, you’re making no sense at all.

                 Whacking tax on a product isn’t free market.
                 • Exkiwiforces …

                   1 October 2018 at 6:29 pm

                   Well I’m making a killing on oil futures atm along with my POL stocks atm and you are whining like a grumpy pom about it. Don’t like buy a smaller car, or a bike or use public transport unless it’s too low brow

                   So be a good lad fill your car up please as i do like see a grumpy rightie as it makes my day happy. As I need people like you to help fund my renewable energy shares as my POL and Oil futures up as supply and demand increases.

                   Supply and Demand isn’t that at another free market saying from the yrs?
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   1 October 2018 at 7:18 pm

                   Actually, it is. After all, the price of a product on the market must actually reflect the costs for that product. What you’re demanding is a subsidy for fossil fuelled vehicles.
                   • Exkiwiforces …

                     1 October 2018 at 7:26 pm

                     Do you play golf btw? That was a lovely hole in one DTB.
                   • In Vino …

                     1 October 2018 at 9:52 pm

                     I would say an Eagle hole in one by both Exkiwiforces and Draco.
                     Surprising that BM seems to believe that taxes are the only way free markets get manipulated… All honest and fair is it, BM?
             • Ngungukai …

               1 October 2018 at 10:33 pm

               Thank JK
       • shadrach 4.1.2.2

         1 October 2018 at 5:38 pm

         “…just as banks don’t make much money with low interest rates”

         You might want to think about that a bit more.

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/103740035/bank-profits-race-ahead-of-rest-of-nzs-earnings
         “New Zealand’s big four banks’ profits have increased at three times the rate of the country’s gross domestic profit (GDP) over the past 10 years.
         According to the Reserve Bank, ANZ, ASB, BNZ and Westpac made a combined $4.9 billion, after tax, in the year to December 31, 2017.
         Ten years earlier, in what was described as a “boom time” for banks, when lending growth soared, they pulled in a combined $2.8b after tax.
         That means their profits rose 75 per cent over the decade.”
         • Exkiwiforces 4.1.2.2.1

           1 October 2018 at 5:43 pm

           Yes it’s bad enough atm IRT the Banks, but wait until the interest rates really start going up especially credit cards, mortgages etc and watch the money roll in.
5. greywarshark 5

   1 October 2018 at 10:30 am

   I’m reading a school age book about the Roman Atticus in 30BC. I think it is important for us to refresh or learn at the young adult book level about history particularly as most of us would have big gaps in knowledge. This seems to illustrate a political path that we are following or can observe in others influential in our country.

   The Roman government began as a republic – meaning the citizens elected their own leaders – that lasted for nearly five hundred years. But only men with money and property to their names could vote.

   There were two branches of the Republic the citizen assemblies and the Senate, and the Senate was by far the more powerful. Consuls continued to govern in distant lands (as proconsuls), and they often remained military leaders with the power to make war in order to expand the Empire.

   However as Rome plunged ahead in its military campaigns, defeating foreign nations and forcing those populations to bear the chains of slavery, the nobility of Rome grew increasingly wealthy and corrupt, and the Republic itself grew weaker and weaker. Labour conflicts, slave revolts, and riots, along with the wars waged by and on other nations, engulfed Rome and made the government vulnerable to a takeover.

   Throughout this series of violent uprisings and protests and civil wars, the Republic – senators, noblemen, citizens and reformers – fought to stabilise itself.

   It was then that the First Triumvirate was able to emerge from the wreckage of Rome and take control of the Republic. Pompey ‘the Great”, a famous general; Crassus, a wealthy nobleman; and Julius Caesar; an ambitious military leader and the consul of Gaul, divided up power, and wrested control of the Republic away from the people and the institutions of Rome. However Crassus and Pompey were both killed in battle, and the power became Caesar’s for the taking.

   He led the citizens through a series of political reforms, yet all of his moves were meant only to ensure his continued power. After Julius Caesar was killed in 44 BC
   by his friend Brutus, who was known as a defender of the Republic, a new power came forward…
   (Barry Denenberg – The Life and Times – Atticus of Rome 30BC)
   • greywarshark 5.1

     1 October 2018 at 12:15 pm

     We had better come here to TS and continually practice thinking for ourselves as much as poss and then discussing our thoughts, for relevance, with other thinking, kind and rational people.

     I have just been on google mail and it is helpfully giving me answers that i could choose as I compse an email reply – Thanks a Lot All good No I didn’t or some such.

     When there are helpful little prompts for your every step in life, it seems awfully, awfully important to say FO (I’m a grown up person and realise if I want to be a fully realised person then I have to use my options to exercise my own mind, and craft my own life in as good a way for myself and all around me as possible.)

     Bloody technology. For goodness sake don’t let them take cash off us., make sure you have some on you at all time and use that option if it is offered. Cash gives us the right to conduct our personal business unwatched and uncharted as has been usually available since the dawn of time and barter.

     With the 1984 type thinking that Swelf has dredged up, that loans from family members or others are regarded as income, they have an excuse for checking every transaction, every gift, every bit of generosity or aid given to your stricken life on welfare – which has become an oxymoron. The person who helps you start your car with jumper leads, is he or she to be regarded as providing support, your neighbour sharing garden produce also? The neighbour who asks how you are and smiles, is that emotional support, in the nature of marriage? These people in charge of welfare don’t see you as a person struggling, you are a thing that costs the government to maintain, with a Use By date on you. They are deeply diseased and vicious with it; like rabid dogs, so don’t let them near you.

     There is a layer of technological complexity being laid down that separates us from our world if not adopted and complied with. Needing a cellphone or the plastic card or some other; say reading your eye iris, being screened and challenged in supermarkets, racially profiled on the streets, is business and government setting itself up as gatekeeper. Just another way of stealing our commons, and all smoothed over as the wonderful modern way of technology that offers shimmering holograms of reality to us. And I believe that at borders the security have a right to look at your cellphone information, perhaps download somethings, Because the world has been turned into a turd and you and I are part of it when we don’t deserve such treatment and lack of respect. But as the saying goes ‘If you have to ask the price, you shouldn’t be in the store.’
     • weston 5.1.1

       1 October 2018 at 7:09 pm

       Totally agree greywarshark especially about our right to use cash im often struck by the amount of people ..using their cards to buy the cheapest of items .I find it depressing that we in nz appear to be so content with going down this road .lemmings come to mind !!
   • Draco T Bastard 5.2

     1 October 2018 at 12:34 pm

     the nobility of Rome grew increasingly wealthy and corrupt, and the Republic itself grew weaker and weaker. Labour conflicts, slave revolts, and riots, along with the wars waged by and on other nations, engulfed Rome and made the government vulnerable to a takeover.

     Exactly what’s happening globally now. The rich are screwing everything up for their own aggrandizement as they have always done.

     These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: “the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity”; and “the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or “Commoners”) [poor]” These social phenomena have played “a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse,” in all such cases over “the last five thousand years.”

     Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with “Elites” based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both:

     “… accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels.”

     Capitalism always causes the collapse of the society that it arises in.
6. Observer Tokoroa 6

   1 October 2018 at 11:21 am

   Good Morning to all the Trolls. You weirdos.
   Good morning to all the Jacinda haters. You brainless Bastards

   Thank you Jacinda for providing some Free heat for us in Winter.
   Thanks for getting our low wages lifted a bit. No wonder the virtuous greedy Simon bastards hate you.

   Thank you Jacinda for moving heaven and earth to get Housing back on the agenda. (Simon Bridges and the disgusting greasy Boag and crappy Collins vomit on you for that. They do not want NZ people to have houses – only the Wealthy. The :Pigs.)

   Thank you for making sure the Landlords clean their slums up. Amy Adams wants to shit on you for doing that. Simon has been up and down the country bemoaning it.

   Thankyou Jacinda for beginning to make tertiary education a little cheaper for students. Simon who has all the symptoms of an uneducated slovenly teenager wants to repeal your work on that. He hates you like demon devil. He made fun of you and your Baby. What a sick prick he is.

   Thank you Jacinda for repreresenting New Zealand well when on Overseas political tasks. While you were away the creepy sheilas owned by National and the Media,
   pulled you and your family apart – like so many cats and criminals.

   the Speaker of the House did not prevent them.

   Thanks for turning us around a bit and giving us a break from the destructive criminals known as National and Media.
   • Reality 6.1

     1 October 2018 at 12:00 pm

     Thanks OT. Good to hear some appreciation for the changes and help the government has brought in. Too many people seem to think everything can be put to right overnight and that there is an endless supply of money. Given how much needs to be fixed up we should have a little patience. Rome was not built in a day.

     An email from an American friend just received was very complimentary of Jacinda and thinks she is very impressive and talks sense. While commenting they are stuck with a dangerous imbecile. She is totally disgusted.
     • Observer Tokoroa 6.1.1

       1 October 2018 at 1:12 pm

       Reality – many thanks

       It is amazing how fiercely Wealth – clings to its blood lust venom !

       Jacinda is head and shoulders above any other person in our Parliament. So, the Wealthy are out with their brutality trying to dismember her. Their hatred is palpable.

       Our Parliament looks and smells like a blood reservoir – with the blood of children and the poor and the disadvantaged – being bathed in by National Politicians and the Media.

       New Zealand must get rid of Evil Wealth – and bring every man, woman and child into equality.
       • marty mars 6.1.1.1

         1 October 2018 at 4:45 pm

         + 1 yep. You’re exactly correct – equality for all. Funny thing is that when that is the reality then infinite individuality and expressions of uniqueness can flourish. Everyone’s a winner.
   • rod 6.2

     1 October 2018 at 4:57 pm

     Spot on O T. Keep your comments coming thick and fast, until all these tory pricks finally get the message.
   • mary_a 6.3

     1 October 2018 at 5:37 pm

     Thank you Observer Tokoroa (6). Much appreciated.

     Your post is a true observation of the dirty, disgraceful behaviour Natz has indulged in this term so far towards an elected coalition government, which it’s attempting to destroy by any devious means available!

     Indeed Jacinda stands gracious and tall in every respect, way above the Opposition!

     Sick, vile, vindictive pricks are not worthy of being Parliamentary representatives. Not even as Opposition.

     Natz is absolute poison!
   • Ankerrawshark 6.4

     1 October 2018 at 6:14 pm

     Observer tokoroa + 100
   • Ngungukai 6.5

     1 October 2018 at 10:37 pm

     Simon needs eloqution lessons he has very poor speech for a qualified lawyer and he mangles his words like JK.
7. marty mars 7

   1 October 2018 at 11:42 am

   Love it. Thanks Ali.

   “Inaugural NRLW winner Ali Brigginshaw says the post-match kiss with her partner was as much a celebration of love as it was a desire to show some young girls it’s OK to be true to themselves.

   … “I’ve never been one to hide my affection,” she said of the post-match celebration. “She’s the person I love … I have her here and I’m not going to say, ‘I can’t show you affection at the game’. ”

   https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/107500209/inaugural-nrlw-champion-not-holding-back-shes-the-person-i-love
8. joe90 8

   1 October 2018 at 12:40 pm

   Damon’s Kavanaugh.

   Dying… pic.twitter.com/kmnPG33lag— Shannon Watts (@shannonrwatts) September 30, 2018

   https://twitter.com/shannonrwatts/status/1046249198197256193
   • veutoviper 8.1

     1 October 2018 at 2:29 pm

     Wasn’t it wonderful? ROFL
9. Peter McKeefry 9

   1 October 2018 at 1:07 pm

   What was Marama Davidson Thinking this morning when she went on to the AM show so woefully unprepared

   Personally because I’m from the right I enjoyed the interview immensely however those on the left should be horrified at every single aspect of her proposal and the fact that she really had no idea what she was talking about

   Not to have costings at her fingertips has basically destroyed the whole policy platform and would’ve failed to convince a single person that this policy is any merit whatsoever

   On behalf of all right leaning voters I just request more of the same from the left.
   • Incognito 9.1

     1 October 2018 at 5:52 pm

     I read your comment and had no idea what you were referring to; I had to look it up.

     Wasn’t that the same guy who was singing the praises of the PM’s speech in NY just a few days ago?
10. Morrissey 10

    1 October 2018 at 2:24 pm

    Three cheers for Real Madrid!!!

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/09/real-madrid-football-club-honours-palestine-activist-ahed-tamimi-180930100616622.html
11. Jimmy 11

    1 October 2018 at 3:06 pm

    Marama Davidsons interview with Duncan Gardner was embarrassing. She should not not be allowed to speak to media without Shaw being there. I am no fan of Gardner but she was ill prepared and was absolutely clueless.
    • greywarshark 11.1

      1 October 2018 at 3:53 pm

      Jimmy
      If you are concerned about Davidson’s ability why not write to her with some advice numbered and explained so even the simplest person can understand what you are on about.
      • chris73 11.1.1

        1 October 2018 at 3:59 pm

        Here it is, its not pretty viewing

        https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/09/get-out-of-office-duncan-garner-slams-completely-incompetent-marama-davidson.html
        • Macro 11.1.1.1

          1 October 2018 at 5:18 pm

          Yawn.
          Partisan reporting at its worst.
          I take it that despite the fact that beneficiaries have been woefully under funded by all governments since the draconian Richardson “mother of all budgets” which decided to underfund beneficiaries by around 20% since 1991, you are not concerned.
          NZ has the highest rate of homelessness in the entire western world.
          We have one of the highest rates of suicide.
          We have one of the highest rates of imprisonment.
          We have one of the highest rates of domestic violence.
          All of these above sad statistics can be directly sheeted back to the lack of compassion for our poor, who have been on struggle street for far too long, and the effects of such impoverishment is now plainly to be seen.
          The sad fact is, that the cost of this continued underfunding of the vulnerable poor, costs this country far more in hospitals, prisons, emergency housing, mental health, and the lack of potential from thousands of young people, than the act of raising benefits to a sustainable level would cost. But that should not be the major consideration. The lack of morality in this cynical underfunding supported by the right wing Murdoch controlled media is the major problem – totally on display by these R W toadies who display a complete lack of moral compass.
          • shadrach 11.1.1.1.1

            1 October 2018 at 5:57 pm

            “Partisan reporting at its worst.”

            I watched the interview without reading the surrounding narrative and Marama Davidson is appallingly bad. Appearing on nationwide TV with such a vague attitude is totally unacceptable in someone paid what she is paid.

            Macro, I am concerned for those in my country who are struggling, but if Marama is their best advocate, God help them.
            • Macro 11.1.1.1.1.1

              1 October 2018 at 6:23 pm

              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
              Concern Troll at work!
              • Shadrach …

                1 October 2018 at 11:17 pm

                Sounds like you deluded yourself and don’t like having it pointed out.
        • Ed 11.1.1.2

          1 October 2018 at 5:55 pm

          Agreed.
          Garner is repulsive.
        • mac1 11.1.1.3

          1 October 2018 at 6:11 pm

          So, how much would it cost to raise by 20% benefits paid?

          Estimates for current MSD budget figures;
          Benefits about $5.5 billion
          Super about 14.5 billion.
          All benefits would cost another $1 billion.
          Super would cost about $3 billion.

          Consider now that the lost revenue to government by tax evasion is assessed at somewhere between $1.5 and $7 billion annually. Figures vary as the NZ govt is not able to say what it is losing. http://archive.stats.govt.nz/~/media/Statistics/about-us/official-info-act-requests/oia_tax-avoidance-evasion-data_160916/oia_tax-avoidance-evasion-data_160916.pdf

          2014 figures say $9.4bn according to RNZ

          https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/257185/economic-crime-costs-up-to-$9-point-4bn
          • BM 11.1.1.3.1

            1 October 2018 at 6:15 pm

            Where does the 5 billion come from?

            You will always have some tax evasion and those numbers on tax evasion are purely guestimations and probably well out of date.

            With the move to a cashless society, it’s getting pretty hard to avoid tax.
            • Incognito 11.1.1.3.1.1

              1 October 2018 at 6:22 pm

              With the move to a cashless society, it’s getting pretty hard to avoid tax.

              Nah, it’ll be as easy as it is now, dead easy: buy a house for $1.5 mil, flip it a few months later for $2 mil and you’ll have $0.5 mil profit (minus a few costs) completely free of tax. You were saying?
              • BM …

                1 October 2018 at 6:24 pm

                Only if it’s the family home and you do that too often the IRD will come down on you like a ton of bricks.

                If you do up/sell houses for a living you have to pay GST and tax like any other business.
                • Incognito …

                  1 October 2018 at 6:30 pm

                  So, we agree that it is dead easy now and will stay this way.
                  • BM …

                    1 October 2018 at 6:42 pm

                    Thing is with the family home is that if your house goes up in value, the house you buy would have gone up in value as well it’s not your house is the only one going up in value so unless you down scope you’re no better off.

                    If you’re continuously doing up houses, living in them for a few months and them flipping them off you will get done by the IRD, because you’re running a business and not paying tax.
                    • Incognito …

                      1 October 2018 at 7:07 pm

                      Oh good, I take that as Yes.

                      You bring up stuff that’s completely irrelevant to the issue, which is that it is dead easy to avoid tax whilst making a profit. In my example, you’ll have increased your wealth by $0.5 mil free of tax. If you buy another family home you’ll have $0.5 mil more equity than before. And your argument of running a business is a red herring.
                    • BM …

                      1 October 2018 at 7:13 pm

                      Think you may be missing the point.

                      If I pay 1.5 million for the family home and sell it xxx number of months/year later for 2 million and then spend 2 million buying another family home unless I leave the market, how am I any better off?
                    • McFlock …

                      1 October 2018 at 7:16 pm

                      And if you’re looking at buying a “family home” with an eye on potential capital gains between now and your next “change in circumstances”, you can intentionally make quite a nice capital gain entirely tax free. Three kids a couple of years apart, a couple of job changes, then the nest starts emptying again – quite a run of untaxed capital gains, there.
                    • McFlock …

                      1 October 2018 at 7:23 pm

                      If I pay 1.5 million for the family home and sell it xxx number of months/year later for 2 million and then spend 2 million buying another family home unless I leave the market, how am I any better off?

                      The exact same way any other property investor would be better off: the reputable ones would create property improvements that add more value than they cost, while the majority of capitalists look for a property that is undervalued (e.g. mortgagee/estate sale, something poorly advertised) so they can low-ball an offer and make a profit eventually selling at its true value (or even more).

                      Do you not know how capitalism works?
                    • Incognito …

                      1 October 2018 at 7:56 pm

                      I know who’s missing the point and it ain’t me, buster.

                      Do you want me to explain the concepts of (net) wealth (or net worth) and home equity to you? Surely, you know exactly what they mean?
                    • BM …

                      1 October 2018 at 8:04 pm

                      We’re talking family home here guys.

                      Please tell me Labour want to tax any rise in value around the family home?

                      Wow, National would rule forever.
                    • McFlock …

                      1 October 2018 at 9:01 pm

                      aaand he schwings to pretending that anyone is talking about Labour Party policy.
                    • Incognito …

                      1 October 2018 at 9:02 pm

                      No, and again you’re trying to divert away from what we’re talking about in this sub-thread. I’ll refresh your memory and quote the part from your own comment @ 11.1.1.3.1:

                      With the move to a cashless society, it’s getting pretty hard to avoid tax.

                      Got it? We had established time after time that you were completely wrong on this.

                      Keep wiggling 😉
            • mac1 11.1.1.3.1.2

              1 October 2018 at 6:38 pm

              Where does the $20 billion come from?

              Taxpayers.

              Meanwhile up to $9 billion according to RNZ, and $7bn according to a global agency, is stolen from the NZ government by criminals.

              Stolen from the government so that law-abiding tax-
              payers end up paying more to support their fellows as compared to the thieving, dishonest and jail-deserving criminals who wilfully and calculatedly welsh from their responsibilities to their fellow-citizens.

              Up-gun the IRD, I say.
              • BM …

                1 October 2018 at 6:46 pm

                I missed the $20 billion dollar figure what’s that relate to?
                • mac1 …

                  1 October 2018 at 7:42 pm

                  $20.2 bn seems to be the sum of payments made for super and for other benefits. The opening page of the document below lists the cost of various benefits. I added together what I thought appropriate for what Davidson seemed to be saying.

                  The additional point I make is that a huge amount of revenue is stolen which had it been paid would make
                  NZ a far better place, including for me, since I could cease being grouchy about these socially irresponsible, tax-evading misfits.

                  https://www.budget.govt.nz/budget/pdfs/estimates/v10/est18-v10-socdev.pdf

                  I’m no budget adviser but these are the best figures I can find. They serve to illustrate the cost of a 20%
                  increase in benefit payments, in ball-park figures.

                  Most of those benefit payments would of course be spent in the local economy, and so have a beneficial flow-on effect.
                  • BM …

                    1 October 2018 at 8:08 pm

                    The additional point I make is that a huge amount of revenue is stolen which had it been paid would make
                    NZ a far better place, including for me, since I could cease being grouchy about these socially irresponsible, tax-evading misfits.

                    You’ll always have crime, there’s not some magical pot of gold out there that you socialists can get your paws into and create some socialist utopia.

                    It’s all sounding a bit like that missing million you guys used to think was the left’s key to power.

                    Fanasty land stuff, any rise in benefit payments will come at the expense of taxpayers and thery’ll punish the col if they try and implement what Davidison is saying.
                    • mac1 …

                      1 October 2018 at 8:27 pm

                      Yes, of course we’ll all have crime.

                      But let’s name it for what it is.

                      Theft.

                      Not smugly paying tradies under the counter payments to get a cheaper price at the expense of others. Not tacitly or openly condoning ‘clever’ or ‘sharp’ practice by ourselves or others.

                      Not ‘pushing the envelope’ in terms of what is legitimate.

                      Not using trusts or overseas companies or other purely tax-avoiding/evading dodges.

                      Because there is also along with the criminality of tax evasion, a certain moral confusion shown by some tax avoiders who might pontificate about the short-comings of others, but can’t see for the rather large log in their own eyes.

                      For example, go on about the few millions stolen by benefit fraudsters but never acknowledge the theft of billions by tax evaders.

                      BTW, your last paragraph is incomprehensible, BM.
      • shadrach 11.1.2

        1 October 2018 at 6:04 pm

        Some free advice for Marama Davidson:

        1. When you are interviewed about a key new policy, at least know what it will cost.
        2. Stop answering questions with ‘yeah’ when you really mean ‘no’.
        3. Don’t use a cost (removing sanctions) as part of explaining how you will pay for a new policy.
    • Incognito 11.2

      1 October 2018 at 5:56 pm

      Please tell me what are Marama Davidson’s portfolios?

      Garner
    • Stunned mullet 11.3

      1 October 2018 at 6:11 pm

      She was very poorly prepared and started just making shit up.
12. veutoviper 12

    1 October 2018 at 3:19 pm

    An interesting 2010 article re Derek Handley and his brother Geoff and their creation of The Hypofactory.

    https://idealog.co.nz/venture/2010/10/hyperdeal

    As well as providing a lot of detail of how they did so, the help they had etc, about 3/4 through the article is a section on their political leanings at that time at least.

    Although these views are eight years ago, they are interesting in relation to the Michelle Boag possible connections currently in the news.

    “While both are sympathetic to the National Party, they’re disappointed with what John Key’s government has so far been able to achieve. They point to the limitations of a three-year electoral cycle—when campaigning for the next election takes up literally half your time, there just isn’t enough time to get much done—and MMP, which they say discourages bold, visionary decisions because split votes create parties that are disproportionately powerful.

    Says Geoff, “I was very right wing—still am—but I was hopeful when this government came to power there would be massive change and it just hasn’t happened. No disrespect to Key or the party, it’s just the structure—there’s nothing they can do. Well, there’s nothing that you can do if you want another term, so you either change the system or you sacrifice yourself.

    “But it’s not like there’s any real big leadership, like, ‘We’re going to the moon!’ Where are we going? We know more about the anti-smacking bill than we know about where we’re going. We know more about these minor things that have no impact on anything but we don’t know where we’re going.”
    • greywarshark 12.1

      1 October 2018 at 3:31 pm

      It seems that Claire Curran may have been naive to be dealing with them.
    • Incognito 12.2

      1 October 2018 at 6:03 pm

      Do you think that Derek Handley’s political views would have prevented or hindered him doing the job of CTO well?
      • veutoviper 12.2.1

        2 October 2018 at 1:05 pm

        I actually have no real views one way or the other as to whether Handley’s political views would have helped or hindered him doing the CTO job well, nor whether he was right or wrong for the role.

        First, the political views. The views expressed in the article were eight years ago when Key had only been PM for two years, yet already both Handley brothers were seeing what was happening. So, to me that indicates a willingness to see things as they were rather than what they may have liked them to be as supposed National supporters at that time.

        In the wider sense, I am not a black and white person – more a shades of grey one when it comes to most things. If Handley or whoever was the right person for the job, then I would hope that they would be selected on that basis, provided their political leanings would not interfere with achieving the expected outcomes. Ideally that would be discussed openly with the person before a final decision. Note the ‘ideally’. LOL

        As to Handley qualifications for the CTO job, as I have said I thought that the job description etc was rather nebulous and could possibly cross across/conflict with already existing high level government IT positions.

        However, IT etc is not my personal skill field and my experience etc is as a user rather than a producer etc of IT. So I cannot, would not make any judgment of him personally in that regard, nor have I done so IIRC.

        For the most part, I actually like what I have seen of him and what he has achieved – although as per most entrepreneurial types, he has also had some failures which I actually also see as a plus rather than a negative. Ability to pick yourself up, shake yourself off and start all over again is an important trait in some fields.

        I will watch his ongoing career etc with interest – and actually would like to see him contribute to some ‘outside the square’ bigger thinking for NZ – along with lots of other younger NZers. For example, I enjoyed looking at the website of Augusto, the Auckland based company that did the photography for Ardern in NY and seeing some of their great work this morning. See my comment here.
        https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-10-2018/#comment-1530956

        I am enjoying your contributions here also. So keep them coming!
        • Incognito 12.2.1.1

          2 October 2018 at 11:42 pm

          Thank you for your elaborate answer and also thanks for the compliment, which I reciprocate to you.

          Given your unique and extensive experience I was indeed wondering, in general, about how people in Wellington operate in an politically-charged ‘ideological’ environment that they may not agree with. But they have to perform professionally all the same. Personally, I’d find this difficult, almost impossible. There are examples of spokespeople who have turned politicians and who had to explain that being a spokesperson can go against your own beliefs. Another example may be Peter Gluckman who apparently found it difficult to cut through some political resistance on certain issues.
13. Robert Guyton 13

    1 October 2018 at 4:04 pm

    Where’s Puckish Rogue?
    • BM 13.1

      1 October 2018 at 4:13 pm

      I’d say he got made redundant from his previous job( they probably had a look through the work computers internet history).
      So has either found himself another job which doesn’t allow him to dick around on here all day or is currently out looking for work.
      • Anne 13.1.1

        1 October 2018 at 5:39 pm

        Yes, he was expecting it because the Defence unit he worked for was being closed down or something like that.

        I hope he gets a new position because despite his rw views he’s a likable and puckish rogue. 😉
        • BM 13.1.1.1

          1 October 2018 at 5:56 pm

          I doubt Mr Rogue will ever find a job like that again,
          Positions where you spend 95% of your workday playing on the internet, don’t come up very often.
    • fender 13.2

      1 October 2018 at 6:01 pm

      Apparently he’s firmly attached by his lips to the glass covering the picture of Judith he keeps on his bedside table after someone placed superglue on her backside!
      • Anne 13.2.1

        1 October 2018 at 6:10 pm

        😀
      • Puckish Rogue 13.2.2

        1 October 2018 at 8:05 pm

        No superglue required…
        • Incognito 13.2.2.1

          1 October 2018 at 8:23 pm

          Too much information!!

          Hope you’re doing ok.
          • Puckish Rogue 13.2.2.1.1

            1 October 2018 at 8:36 pm

            Cheers, I’ll be back at some point. Fortunately not much seems to be happening in politics at the moment
        • fender 13.2.2.2

          1 October 2018 at 8:23 pm

          You sound like you’re sick 🙂
14. Jenny 14

    2 October 2018 at 1:50 am

    The “Red Wave”

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