Open mike 02/04/2020

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, April 2nd, 2020 - 253 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

253 comments on “Open mike 02/04/2020 ”

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  1. Sanctuary 1
    2 April 2020 at 7:39 am

    How long will the NZ Herald last as a print edition?

    Yesterday's edition had about four ads in it, only one was a full pager (propaganda from the dairy industry). The real estate and travel advertising that underpins the print edition has collapsed. The trouble is the Herald is crippled with debt, loaded up with it in classic corporate raider behavior so it's got nothing in the bank for a rainy day.

    Last night on Twitter I saw that David Cormack and David Slack have been axed, the sports desk is for the chop and I am sure the cuts are going to be way deeper than that. They'll be left as the print version of the ZB Taliban and the likes of Kerre McIvor, who genuinely seems to believe the collection of boomer losers who call her represent NZ.

    A lot of people are posting about how tragic the demise of the Herald is, all the good journalists being let go yada yada yada – and they are right, up to a point. But when Shayne Currie's priority is to pay an obscene salary to Mike Hosking rather than keep on six beat reporters, you have to say what everyone seems to be studiously ignoring – that NZME have destroyed the Herald's brand, trashing it favour of short termist decision making and the need to keep pumping cash to the owners.

    Lets be honest – it is actually now a shit newspaper with a few bright spots.

    COVID-19 will probably claim the print edition of the Herald as amongst it's victims.

    • Molly 1.1
      2 April 2020 at 7:56 am

      I have a close friend whose partner works at the Herald. They almost immediately laid off a number staff after the lockdown announcement. Like you, I think the outlook is not too good for the print edition.

    • OnceWasTim 1.2
      2 April 2020 at 8:00 am

      "Lets be honest – it is actually now a shit newspaper with a few bright spots."

      Ain't that the truth! They seem to have been in self-destruct mode for quite a while quite apart from the problems with generating advertising revenue that most commercial media faces

    • gsays 1.3
      2 April 2020 at 8:34 am

      Maybe, just maybe, one of the changes when the dust settles is a return to truly local newspapers and radio stations. As opposed to these real estate publications fluffed up by some token items that are newsworthy.

      For a while now, the three 'local' papers, The Feilding Herald, The Manawatu Standard and The Dominion are 50-80% same content.

      I suppose this industry is facing huge pressure from the internet, but their race-to-the-bottom business model isn't serving them at all well.

    • peterh 1.4
      2 April 2020 at 8:53 am

      They have to keep Mike Hoskings on, Everyone is waiting for him to get something right

    • Jimmy 1.5
      2 April 2020 at 10:16 am

      They keep contacting me and offering it free for a couple of weeks….I don't bother as they just end up straight in the recycling bin.

    • tc 1.6
      2 April 2020 at 2:13 pm

      NZME has been looking to merge (watch them go all out for it now) and overselling the quality of the current service.

      It's run by an ex telco so no change in MO there. It's always been a soapbox that's made no bones about nailing blue colours to it's mast which has been independently verified by media observers in academia.

      Best of luck with an approach that identifies with Mikey's audience rather than the more general business of actually informing people on a range of issues.

      • RedBaronCV 1.6.1
        2 April 2020 at 3:00 pm

        Yeah they do want to merge but, as somebody put it, instead of two supposedly struggling companies , we would have no competition and one struggling company.

        Still NZME looks to some extent as if they are the authors of their own misfortune.

        In the 2019 annual report they appear to have 1500 employees and an annual wages bill of $156m so $13m a month.

        418 Employees on $100k+ and 6 directors take home $64m . So 28% of employees take home 41% of the payroll .

        The remaining 1100 employees 72% take home 59% of the payroll.

        Chop the top wages all back to $100k and that gives $23 mill slack so a couple of months wages.

        • greywarshark 1.6.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 8:51 pm

          The management will be trying to get some return on the NZME assets. They wanted to buy Fairfax and weren't allowed to because it would cut the competition and width of reporting. Will they have another go, saying they can't make it profitable as things now stand?

          Will the authority see through their ploy and avoid allowing them to strip what's left of Fairfax, which had a good go by selling TradeMe and therefore the basic advertising that would have been their backbone, just on-line instead of on paper?

          Is the ComCom the authority that decides for or against mergers ? I hope they have in their songbook Bracken's anthem for us – God Save NZ. With these predatory efficiency-hounds doing the business on us, we must look to a higher authority.

  2. OnceWasTim 2
    2 April 2020 at 7:50 am

    Not sure if anyone noticed this (haven't yet read yesterday's OM) but its an interesting observation on our immigration policies of the past:

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/413177/unskilled-workers-now-keeping-new-zealand-going

    The 'low skilled' now appear to be essential.

    And that's not to mention those with skills we should have considered as desirable (such as people expert in things like preservation of wildlife, purity of water tables, Robert Guyton type land use practices, etc) for whom we've made it impossible to stay, OR things such as some of these folk:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-52106565 who we have made it damn near impossible to come

    Snobbishness and Eurocentric policies are not always going to be the things we'll need in the future

    • Sanctuary 2.1
      2 April 2020 at 7:58 am

      "…Snobbishness and Eurocentric policies are not always going to be the things we'll need in the future.."

      Look at the RNZ news page this morning on COVID-19:

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/413193/latest-on-the-spread-of-the-coronavirus-around-the-world

      Unconscious racial snobbery and Eurocentrism at it's finest. First, report on Europe. Then "The Americas" (the USA). next on the pecking order is Asia-pacific, you know, where we actually live. Bringing up the rear, as befitting lesser races, is the Middle East and Africa.

    • Molly 2.2
      2 April 2020 at 8:06 am

      My daughter is currently considered an essential worker – working in a local glasshouse. She was planning to save for a year before studying. Her wage was increased yesterday, thanks to the minimum wage increase. While we were walking after she got back from work, I was thinking how very little we value those who are providing the necessities for all of us going through the lockdown.

      Supermarket workers, waste management workers, cleaners, horticultural and agricultural workers, transport drivers, hospital support staff – a large proportion of these are on the minimum wage. But they are showing the worth of their labour, when all the excess has been stripped away.

      For those that haven't read it. The New Economics Foundation 2009 report: A Bit Rich, is worth the time. NEF is an economic organisation that I actually enjoy reading.

      (As you mention, the Number 8 wire approach seems to have emigrated to India. We could relearn a lot from their ingenuity)

      • RedLogix 2.2.1
        2 April 2020 at 8:16 am

        Supermarket workers, waste management workers, cleaners, horticultural and agricultural workers, transport drivers, hospital support staff – a large proportion of these are on the minimum wage.

        And you can tell a lot about a person's character by observing how they treat these people.

        In many ways inequality is not measured solely in dollars or GINI coefficients. It's the snobbery, the carelessness and hardness of heart that it so easily engenders which is the real harm.

        • Molly 2.2.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 8:17 am

          " And you can tell a lot about a person's character by observing how they treat these people. "

          I think that is true of societies as well.

        • I Feel Love 2.2.1.2
          2 April 2020 at 9:17 am

          That interesting and painful irony is we pay those the least, that will be looking after us in our old age, it's quite short sighted really.

    • Molly 2.3
      2 April 2020 at 8:49 am

      For those like me, who enjoy seeing the personification of the ranter in their head in the form of a British comedian – Tom Walker, an excerpt from Jonathan Pie on the value of our essential workers:

      "…checkout girls, and shelf stackers, working for minimum wage helping the worst of humanity with their bagging errors – these people are the backbone of society…"

      "…this sickness, this sense of entitlement. It's a sickness in our society, this narcissism. Nobody lives in the world anymore. You don't think the world applies to you. You fool yourself that you are not involved. With personal freedom comes personal responsibility. You can't have both. You have a responsibility to be part of society. You are part of society. You are part of a group. Whether you like it or not. It's time to act like it, and be part of society by locking your door and staying as far away from society as you possibly can…"

      "Do you know who they're going to blame? They're going to blame you, Jonathan. They're going to blame you. It's all your fault. You're the one to blame…. You shouldn't have bought the pot plant!!". – the ranter, and the hypocrite that lives in most of us.

      https://youtu.be/y6lhWKX_S0k

    • Craig H 2.4
      2 April 2020 at 6:20 pm

      Immigration NZ use a combination of ANZSCO (Australia New Zealand Standard Classification of Occupations) and pay rate (median wage or higher) to determine skill of a job for immigration purposes.

      ANZSCO is maintained by Stats NZ and its Australian counterpart. Occupations are classified from skill levels 1 to 5 based on level of qualification/time taken to be competent in a role. Skill level 1 is degree level or 5 years. Skill levels 2 and 3 are post-secondary qualifications/3 years. Skill level 4 is secondary level qualifications (e.g. NCEA)/1 year. Skill level 5 is no qualification or experience required (maybe some on the job training).

      The Immigration definition of skilled employment is skill level 1-3 ANZSCO and at least median wage, or 1.5 x median wage regardless of ANZSCO.

      If there are issues with the skill level of the job, point the blame at the government (who decide what the criteria are, including the definition of skill for immigration purposes) or the departments responsible for ANZSCO.

      • OnceWasTim 2.4.1
        3 April 2020 at 7:53 am

        Once again, you seem to be rather defensive about INZ.

        I'm well aware of the way INZ does things. And if you're suggesting they, (and MBIE) as a whole have no part in setting policy – as is the case with most other government agencies, then there are a raft of people across the public service that are serving no useful purpose – Policy Analysts, some in middle and senior management, etc. And that is not the case.

        ANZCO lists; IELTS levels, the demographic profiling/spreadsheets (that someone in-house came up with) et al, you'll be well aware of the Eurocentrism, and in some cases racism that people have experieinced INCLUDING former employees of the place

    • KJT 2.5
      3 April 2020 at 8:12 am

      Now that employers cannot import, compliant, cheap, slave labour, on temporary visa's, or use back packers looking for pocket money, maybe Northlands thousands of unemployed, mostly Māori, youngsters, can get a look in?

      Maybe even with wages at a level that enables them to afford to work?

      • OnceWasTim 2.5.1
        3 April 2020 at 1:34 pm

        Let's hope so.

        Actually, one of the people/examples I referred to (above – to do with being well-equipped with green credentials, but who eventually just had to give up and leave) wanted nothing more than to train younger unemployed indigenous folk – hoping to set them and their families up for life.

        Unfortunately, after being bashed a couple of times; had passport stolen with the inevitable hassle, AND COST over visas and passport replacements, with a NZ-born daughter and a wife that had been sexually abused by an overstayer, and having committed a decade of his life to contributing to "lil 'ole Nu Zull that punches above its weight" – he/they just had to give up.

        And believe me, that's not the only example I could tell you about. And for each of those cases, 'under-resourcing' as an excuse just doesn't cut it. There have been quite a few absolute muppet policy decisions (some of "an operational" nature that have nothing to do with politicians – of any stripe).

        We've known for a while that under pre-COVID, the pace of change was increasing, and yet we haven't had a government administrative (public service) response that could keep up.

        Even now, MBIE cannot walk and suck eggs at the same time, and nor can quite a few other government departments.

        One of the good things to come out of all this is probably the realisation that things can't continue as they have, and I'm pretty sure JA (and one or two others) is intelligent and astute enough to see where a lot of the roadblocks are/have been.

        I've always maintained that reform was well overdue and probably was something the coalition should have tackled first. If you're interested – Efeso Collins as posted something on TDB, and the last two paragraphs seem pretty relevant to me :

        "Interestingly, the panel of experts the government has asked to look over all the shovel-ready projects, is made up of four, white, men. In the midst of the greatest international crises of our time, the people who will oversee how we kickstart our construction industry and reboot our economy, just don’t reflect the society we are, or more importantly, will be."

        He's referring to different government agencies but sure as shit its equally, if not more applicable to the Ministry for Everything

        and……..

        "……….. The other side [of this pandemic] needs to be diverse and dynamic; anchored on equity and focused on climate change. These will become the foundational pillars of the new NZ we’ll be in the next little while. ……….. "

        Anyway, I'm starting to rave, but as we have been over the past few decades is not going to work in the decades to come

  3. RedLogix 3
    2 April 2020 at 7:59 am

    An interesting and highly plausible take on CV19.

    This guy is a lifestyle blogger; his track record is sane and middle of the road.

    The content is all public domain information. Make of it what you will.

    My partner and I know first hand personally of two identical incidents at ESR Kenepuru (Porirua), we know this sort of thing happens and gets covered up … even in NZ.

    • francesca 3.1
      2 April 2020 at 8:36 am

      What in God's name is the actual point of all that?

      How does it help us ?

      Why is the Spanish flu still called the Spanish flu when we all by now know it was started in the US and effectively covered up .Are you still railing against the US for visiting the world's so far most killing pandemic upon our forebears …And lying about it

      You have an almighty hate of (you call it the CCP, I suspect there's a racist element )and it's uncharacteristic of you to express that kind of unrelenting hate .

      You are usually a person who wants to mend rifts, encouraging people to embrace the perceived other

      I find finger pointing and blame in this instance to be a total waste of emotional energy

      That's just me anyway.

      • RedLogix 3.1.1
        2 April 2020 at 9:15 am

        You make a good point and it deserves a straight answer.

        My auntie is Chinese, we've lived with a Chinese family this past two years, my oldest friend's mother is Chinese, I have an adopted son who uses my family name who is Chinese.

        It's from these people that I've picked up my loathing of the CCP as a deeply dangerous and vile entity. They have enslaved an entire people and then tell the rest of the world how wonderful they are.

        There is a distinction between institutions and people. I will always give people the benefit of the doubt and treat them courteously as the context requires; I expect the best for them.

        But dangerous ideologies and the institutions they spawn will get nothing from me.

        • KJT 3.1.1.1
          3 April 2020 at 8:26 am

          Some of the most rascist, zenophobic arseholes, I know have Asian or Indian wives.

          Being misogynists as well, those guys like "compliant" Asian women for wives.

          Having Asian relatives is not proof of being non xenophobic. "I have a Black friend".

          In my immediate family we have New Zealand Chinese, as well, who have been following events in China. They are no fans of the CCP, as the family escaped a few steps ahead of the chairman's death squads.

          People repeating anti Chinese propaganda, basically exaggerated bull, from US, sources, makes life difficult for them and other Chinese here.

      • Incognito 3.1.2
        2 April 2020 at 11:51 am

        I find finger pointing and blame in this instance to be a total waste of emotional energy

        It does serve a purpose as an outlet of negative emotions such as anger and fear. The risk is that it takes over and ‘a life of its own’ and leads to tar & feathers and lynch mobs. Underlying (or overt) racism is always simmering under the surface ready to erupt in violence. When this turns into social unrest and mass violence, we are screwed. And it can all start with pointing a finger.

      • bill 3.1.3
        2 April 2020 at 6:18 pm

        The "point" of all that (and a lot of stuff in a similar vein that swilling around) is pretty much explained in the article I've linked to at Comment 3.5 below.

        Funny innit, how well researched, intelligent articles don't get pushed with the same passion, or by similar numbers of organisations and useful idiots, as does the likes of the "laughably" xenophobic rubbish from the loawhy86's of the world.

        The explanation for that is pretty much covered in the article too – it's the usual story of politically motivated and well funded (if fucking nutty) propaganda. But I digress, and must away to the neighbours and check the results of my 'door knob painting' skills…

        • RedLogix 3.1.3.1
          2 April 2020 at 10:31 pm

          as does the likes of the "laughably" xenophobic rubbish from the loawhy86's of the world.

          If so why did they guy live in China 10 years, learn the language fluently and marry locally?

          This pathetic old gambit of conflating criticism with racism is what’s truly laughable here.

          • bill 3.1.3.1.1
            2 April 2020 at 11:14 pm

            The guys presentations are full of arm waving lies. Did you actually bother to check any of his claims, or did you just take him at his word? I provided comprehensive links that explain the background to much of the anti-China bullshit flying around that's being peddled by your loawhy86 as well as Bloomberg News, The Guardian and others. Did you read through the links provoded and check the veracity of what was being said there?

            You understand that anti-China propaganda leads directly to Asians being targeted in the streets, yes? You okay with that are you? And to be clear. I'm not talking about factual criticism of China, or the Chinese government, but about the lies and bullshit being peddled by loaway86 and corporate mouthpieces of official western narratives.

            Here's a wee example of what I'm alluding to, that was shoehorned into a Guardian article and that sticks out like dogs bollocks (and if you read the links I provided, you'll be in a place to understand the genesis and garbage basis of this precise example)

            He [Trump] again questioned China’s reported numbers on the virus: “The numbers seem to be a little bit on the light side – and I am being nice when I say that – relative to what we witnessed and what was reported.”

            The comments followed a Bloomberg news story that said a classified US intelligence report had concluded that China had under-reported the total cases and deaths it had suffered. On Wednesday – the last day of available figures – China reported 82,361 confirmed cases and 3,316 deaths.

            • RedLogix 3.1.3.1.1.1
              3 April 2020 at 12:11 am

              You claimed he was xenophobic (which is just a polite word for racist) when you knew nothing about him and his background. You have no answer to that.

              The guys presentations are full of arm waving lies.

              He's been blogging for years and is a close friend of the very popular Serpentza (Winston) who both started out as lifestyle bloggers simply recording their daily life in China and their impressions living and working in a culture they were determined to understand and present to the wider world. In this they've built a large and appreciative audience over many years for making mainland Chinese society more accessible. It was my adopted son who first pointed me to them about five years ago.

              It's only been the past few years under Xi Xinping that things have changed for them both. The CCP has become a lot more oppressive and especially hawkish toward foreigners in the past four years. This they've recorded and expressed their dismay over it’s impact on ordinary Chinese people.

              In this particular video all of his information is public domain and widely scrutinised by his substantial audience fluent in the language. Understand that in a closed society with no journalism, no independent rule of law and no democratic accountablility … nothing can ever be 'proved' to a standard you would approve of.

              But the coinkidinkies are stacking up.

            • RedLogix 3.1.3.1.1.2
              3 April 2020 at 12:36 am

              Did you read through the links provoded and check the veracity of what was being said there?

              Yes I have. In one comment I'm not going to dissect the Grayzone article in full but one small item will have to suffice:

              The group also believes that modern science was invented by aliens as part of a scheme to take over human bodies

              So I followed the link to the somewhat dense lecture and found the relevant passage:

              Secondly, you know that usually religions tell people how to conduct themselves. Science, meanwhile, also has [a system that] starts from elementary school and spans to high school and college. In religions there are priests, bishops, and other clergy. Yet this science is even more developed. It has its teachers, people with bachelors, masters, doctorates, and post-docs, and also advisors. The higher the degree someone possesses, the more scientific doctrines he’s mastered. The names and titles for its teachers and administrators are numerous. In this respect it’s well developed. Usually religions teach people to believe spiritually so as to achieve material transformation, whereas science tells people to perceive materially so as to elicit people’s spiritual trust and support. Science, however, is not something gods imparted to humans. Instead, it was passed down to humans by alien beings inside the Three Realms, and for the purpose of controlling humankind. People’s belief in it has surpassed everything. But I tell you that precisely because of its shallowness, this science has caused the degeneration of morality in human society. This is most terrifying. Because science isn’t able to perceive microscopic matter’s specific forms of existence, it doesn’t know that karma is generated when humans commit bad deeds or that this black substance brings disaster to humans. It doesn’t know that when people do good deeds they bring about the white substance, which brings them happiness, and brings them conditions and rewards that they’ll experience when they reincarnate in different dimensions. Moreover, science isn’t capable of proving the existence of heavenly paradises. So whenever you mention these things, those people who believe in science will say that you’re spreading “superstition”—“None of those exist. What I believe in is science.” Think about it, then: Isn’t science ruthlessly striking like a big club at the most vital thing that protects humanity—morality? This is extremely terrifying!

              If you strip away the traditional idioms and allegories unfamiliar to the Western mind, the basic message is simple enough … that science on it's own is an insufficient basis for morality. This is an assertion I think is very true, as do millions of people who place an equal or greater weight on the spiritual domain.

              Yet the author of the Grayzone piece strip mines this presentation for the most gaudy and contentious possible interpretation. A sure sign of a hostile and biased agenda.

              • bill …
                3 April 2020 at 4:38 am

                You claimed he was xenophobic (which is just a polite word for racist) when you knew nothing about him and his background. You have no answer to that.

                What the actual fuck are you on Red? The guy's videos are almost cut and paste propaganda of the sort explored in the Greyzone article. And that propaganda leverages off historical western racist attitudes towards Asians in the broad sense and Chinese in the narrower one.

                I don't have to know jack-shit about the guy to understand the underlying nature of his argument or position.

                On the specifics that he talks to, like I said before, there is a lot of arm waving (eg – conspiracy theory junk over a missing picture) and out-right lies (eg – the gap in timing between given events.)

                As for the "item" you want to dissect by way of your second comment, well…the piece explicitly states that science was passed down to humans by alien beings. And that was the sole reason Ajit Singh provided the link in his Grayzone piece – to show that he wasn't just making shit up when he wrote on an aspect of the Falun Gong belief system.

                I guess you're being serious when you call that basic journalistic practice a "sure sign of a hostile and bias agenda"….

                • RedLogix …
                  3 April 2020 at 11:48 am

                  The guy's videos are almost cut and paste propaganda of the sort explored in the Greyzone article.

                  And if I accused you of doing 'cut and paste' CCP propaganda it wouldn't fly for one simple reason … while you and I have never met, we have interacted here for almost a decade. We have a sense of each other's authenticity.

                  I don't have to know jack-shit about the guy to understand the underlying nature of his argument or position.

                  By contrast I do know more than jack-shit about the guy and have gained a sense of who he is over a period of some years now. (I just can't recall exactly when I first watched one of his videos. Typically the two of them would hop on their motorbikes and using wireless headsets, chat on random topics while driving around showing you the real country). The point is, him and Winston some of the relatively rare Westerners who have lived in mainland China for a decade or so, speak the language and have a strong social network into Chinese society. What is more they are reflecting very similar information that I am hearing from my own much more modest circle.

                  The Chinese people are not a vast hive mind; millions loath the CCP for much more intimate reasons than we understand.

                  the piece explicitly states that science was passed down to humans by alien beings.

                  And that's always the problem when scientific materialists read religious writings literally. Substitute the word 'angel' for 'alien' and you can find very similar ideas within many other religious works.

                  • bill …
                    3 April 2020 at 5:54 pm

                    And if I accused you of doing 'cut and paste' CCP propaganda it wouldn't fly for one simple reason …

                    Hmm. I don't read any languages other than English and am not therefor subjected to much propaganda from non-English sources. "Your" wee fella on the other hand is outright parroting lines that have been debunked or found to have no underlying credible source and that, in addition, come from very specific and identifiable actors that have obvious political agendas to push.

                    You might also want to reflect that the lines he parrots do not correlate with what epidemiologists working through notionally independent bodies attached to the UN are saying. (I say "notionally" because many orgs affiliated to the UN are generally and quite reasonably regarded as projections of "western" power throughout much of the world).

                    One of the basic techniques for on-line propaganda is to build up audiences off the back of innocuous posts. So saying you "know" some online presence on the basis of previous non-political postings they've made, and spring-boarding from their non-political presence to assert that they're neutral or trustworthy, doesn't really mean very much when it comes down to discerning credibility.

                    See, I'll just stick my hand straight up and say that for me, a person who just 'all of a sudden' starts posting political content that's obviously deeply informed by a political ideology, is a big red flag indicating that a bit of digging or caution is in order, aye?

                    • RedLogix …
                      3 April 2020 at 6:10 pm

                      "Your" wee fella on the other hand is outright parroting lines that have been debunked or found to have no underlying credible source and that, in addition, come from very specific and identifiable actors that have obvious political agendas to push.

                      Ah no. Go back and actually watch the damn video. He's quoting official public domain sites for his core information.

                      One of the basic techniques for on-line propaganda is to build up audiences off the back of innocuous posts.

                      Ah not for six or more years … that's stretching it.

                      I'll just stick my hand straight up and say that for me, a person who just 'all of a sudden' starts posting political content

                      Again no. These two guys have been doing this for years now, and the transition to 'political' posts has been a natural consequence of real life events they've gone through.

                      You know, not everyone on the internet who is saying something you don't like is necessarily speaking in bad faith.

                      Why are you so keen to discredit two ordinary people on YT when we know the CCP has lied about so many other things? Their human rights record is appalling, they have no independent media or court system. Foreign journalists have either been expelled or intimidated. People who embarrass the Party are silenced, there is a massive firewall around their internet, everything in China is either censored or beholden to the CCP and it's dictates.

                      Yet for some weird reason their word is pure fucking gospel on this COVID debacle. /facepalm

                    • bill …
                      3 April 2020 at 6:47 pm

                      Yet for some weird reason their [CCP] word is pure fucking gospel on this COVID debacle. /facepalm

                      Really? Because I don't think I've read or linked to a single source from the CCP. I've linked to investigative pieces that have been published by highly credible sites such as The Grayzone. And I've read what various epidemiologists from around the world who do not seem to have any political angle – (ie – they focus on their area of expertise) – reckon on the Chinese reaction to Covid.

                      And then I've read or watched the stuff that you and Tony and others have put up here, and it simply doesn't hold water. I've also read various corporate media pieces that shoehorn obvious propaganda into their pieces (When I say "obvious", I'm referring to stuff that has been investigated and debunked).

                      And again. (How often am I going to have to reiterate this?) I don't trust Chinese bureaucracy any more or any less than I trust bureaucracy embedded in any other political or ideological framework.

    • Treetop 3.2
      2 April 2020 at 9:00 am

      Highly plausible.

      The 6 people tested who have antibodies (assuming they were infected with Covid-19) to the virus where the bats are, I found this to be interesting.

      So why is there not an outbreak where the 6 people are?

      Possibly there was an outbreak and it was covered up.

      At some point corona virus was going to be a reality whether it came from a lab or a wet market.

      No one likes a cover up. Even if the CCP admit it, this is not going to change or influence the impact of Covid -19.

    • A 3.3
      2 April 2020 at 9:37 am

      Funny you should post this cause I started watching this guy a couple of weeks back + Serpentza. The coverage today of what China is doing to foreigners will be interesting (ADV podcast channel).

      Yep, interesting.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 3.4
      2 April 2020 at 10:05 am

      Mortality figures far higher than the CCP admit – as much as 1 million?



      The CCP has almost from the beginning lied to the world about the CCPvirus!

      • joe90 3.4.1
        2 April 2020 at 6:37 pm

        Falun Gong have always said the CCP lies.

      • RedLogix 3.4.2
        3 April 2020 at 12:41 am

        This isn't a very useful indicator. Dual SIM phones are very common in China (especially Oppo which we use ourselves). In a major downturn like this it's highly likely millions of people simply let one of their SIM cards go.

    • bill 3.5
      2 April 2020 at 5:58 pm

      Okay. Having done laughing my arse off at the level of stupid in this sub-thread, I thought people who stumble across this part of Open Mike and who have a modicum of common sense, might want to read a piece of journalism that essentially and efficiently rips to pieces the type of xenophobic tripe on display hereabouts

      What was the name of the guy in 1984 everyone was meant to scream at when his image came up on screen? That guy. You guys who keep pushing these anti-Chinese conspiracies are like bulgy eyed members of that audience.

      Here's the entire sub-header of the article…

      A widely disseminated and highly dubious story asserting China concealed tens of thousands of deaths originated from a US government propaganda outlet and a veteran member of a right-wing anti-China cult.

      And no. I'm not an advocate for Chinese style governance and don't pick sides when it comes to different styles and levels of bureaucratic governance – it's all toxic.

      • Carolyn_Nth 3.5.1
        2 April 2020 at 7:16 pm

        OTOH, this Cambridge Uni virologist says the data from China is reliable.

        Yes, there is [from China] very good data. The studies that have been done are excellent and so rapidly produced, but it is all about the context in infectious diseases. There will be some genetic differences in the way that we respond to diseases. That’s not unheard of. So I have a bit of wariness. The data that is coming out of here matters the most and Public Health England is looking at that.

        • Bill 3.5.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 7:36 pm

          That's certainly one way to combat xenophobic tosh…provide authoritative links/voices to the contrary. Personally, I prefer to simply unmask the peddlers of hate and their agenda. Plus, it short circuits idiots who might be tempted to play a numbers game based on a volume of sources… 😉

          • Carolyn_Nth 3.5.1.1.1
            2 April 2020 at 7:47 pm

            Well, I prefer to go with evidence-based info. I particularly liked that piece because it's clear and factual.

            The other thing I found interesting in the interview was that the best way to respond to a pandemic is to stop people travelling, and tell them to stay at home.

            • Bill 3.5.1.1.1.1
              2 April 2020 at 9:49 pm

              Two different, though not entirely separate things on the go in this sub-thread. One is medically based info on a virus and how to combat its spread…the other is how to combat the spread of politically motivated narratives that 'bad actors' are constructing on the back of the virus.

              Horses for courses?

  4. Sanctuary 4
    2 April 2020 at 8:29 am

    Lol shorter Gareth Morgan on RNZ just now – ancient boomer tilts at yesterdays windmills.

    • KJT 4.1
      2 April 2020 at 8:38 am

      A prime example of the adage. "An expert is a person who learns more and more about less and less, until he knows everything about nothing".

      I respect his motives, but he sees everything through the lens of his narrow finance and economic studies.

      Now he is saying don't put money, in the privatised super scheme, Kiwisaver. You know, the one he made millions out of. FIFY.

      And. Isn’t using the “boomer” meme, getting a bit tired. It was never accurate in the first place. Following the lazy idea that it was a generation, and not class, that is screwing people.

      • Sanctuary 4.1.1
        2 April 2020 at 10:42 am

        "…And. Isn’t using the “boomer” meme, getting a bit tired…"

        Actually, I think in Morgan's case here it is appropriate as he is clearly is a boomer still fighting the battles of the 1980s, mentioning Muldoon and dragging out tired think big tropes, before launching into a full blooded Rogernomics prescription complete with the worn out business jargon of the 80's and 90's .

    • RedLogix 4.2
      2 April 2020 at 8:53 am

      As usual Gareth is not afraid to make himself unpopular devil Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

      • KJT 4.2.1
        2 April 2020 at 8:59 am

        Gareth got the memo about Homo rationalis, economicus, and closed his mind thereafter.

        His redeeming feature though, is that he does have a heart.

        • RedLogix 4.2.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 9:30 am

          Gareth makes the point that 'saving the economy' in the wake of the 1970's oil shocks was what Muldoon attempted … with very mixed results. Including the virtual bankruptcy of the nation, destabilising NZ and ushering in the conditions that made Rogernomics possible. Unintended consequences and all that …

          Right now I support what Ardern's govt is doing to keep our business community treading water for a few months while we get this damned bug under control … but it's a strategy that does have it's risks.

          As an aside has anyone noticed what Josh Frydenburg has just implemented an interesting measure that reduces the threshold for their Foreign Investment Review Board (FIRB) from $1.2b to zero … effectively giving him complete control over all foreign investment into Australia. Clearly the concern is that CCP run state owned entities will exploit the distressed state of Australian business assets to swoop in and buy up even more of Australia at firesale prices.

          • pat 4.2.1.1.1
            2 April 2020 at 9:40 am

            "Right now I support what Ardern's govt is doing to keep our business community treading water for a few months while we get this damned bug under control … but it's a strategy that does have it's risks."

            ….and TINA

            • RedLogix 4.2.1.1.1.1
              2 April 2020 at 10:02 am

              ?

              An alternative view is exactly what Gareth is talking to. He's right in this … neither Australia nor NZ can afford to keep this level of wage subsidy up for more than a three months or so … otherwise we run the very real risk of losing what little economic sovereignty we have left.

              • pat …
                2 April 2020 at 10:10 am

                There Is No Alternative….to the immediate actions the Gov is taking.

                A crisis by its nature is immediate….the post crisis strategy is where the debate is.

              • KJT …
                2 April 2020 at 10:18 am

                Depends on whether they pay banks to expand the money supply, Muldoon biggest mistake, or, they use the means that took us out of the 30's depression.

                Call it money printing, helicopter money or whatever you like, it worked, without leaving us hopelessly in debt.

                Very doubtful it will lead to runaway inflation, when the economy is so deep in recession. And necessary to kickstart economic activity, to replace what we have lost.

                The extra taxes, and increased capability, resulting, from increasing the velocity of turnover locally, paid for the recession, "money printing" just as it will, now. It needs a Government with the courage to say we have to increase the Government share of the economy. To work, money needs to go to the bottom end, who will spend it.

                The alternative, the one pursued after Muldoon, did not work then, and it won't work, now.

                That the Nation was “bankrupt” after Muldoon is an easily debunked myth. From those indulging in what Naomi Kline calls “disaster capitalism” to make themselves rich from the situation. Helped by a crop of deluded ideological fools in Government.

                • pat …
                  2 April 2020 at 11:11 am

                  it is a mistake to view the NZ economy in isolation

                  "I asked him [Keynes] if he would borrow if he were in New Zealand in order to get through the crisis. Keynes replied, ‘Yes, certainly if I were you I would borrow if I could, but if you asked me as a lender I doubt whether I would lend to you.’

                  (Diary of the Minister of Finance Downie Stewart, 1932)

                  https://briefingpapers.co.nz/public-debt-how-low-should-it-go/

                  • KJT …
                    2 April 2020 at 11:47 am

                    It is also a mistake to overestimate the necessary effects of overseas trades and cashflows on an economy.

                    As we have already discussed tourism, to take one example, having almost a net zero, or even negative effect on our foreign exchange balance. To keep those people in work, we need money circulating internally, so New Zealanders will take those bus tours and use that accommodation, for several years to come.

                    In New Zealand we are in the fortunate position of having enough resources to supply most necessities internally.

                    It is not going to help if we have hungry people, while there is food sitting unused on a farm. Just for lack of money to make the transfer.

                    Interesting from 1932. Because to a large extent they didn’t borrow. They “printed money” to use the unemployed planting forests, building and road making, utilising resources that didn’t need overseas money.

                    • pat …
                      2 April 2020 at 11:51 am

                      and as has already been explained NZ produces very little that is critical to the functioning of a first world economy so you cannot expect to replace foreign currency generating activity solely with domestic activity.

                    • KJT …
                      2 April 2020 at 12:43 pm

                      Yes. One of the biggest mistakes since the 80's.

                      Don't you have faith in capitalism, to remedy that?

                      Losing activity, such as international tourism, where inbound activity was close to outbound activity, has little effect on our ability to buy imports.
                      The problem is those without work, in New Zealand.

                    • pat …
                      2 April 2020 at 12:51 pm

                      while our ability to supply those needs has deteriorated since the 80s (and the complexity of those needs has increased)…it has always been the case in NZ since the beginning of colonial time…so do I have faith that capitalism will change that?….it hasnt in approaching 200 years

                    • KJT …
                      2 April 2020 at 1:00 pm

                      Yes. It has always been Government, at least here, which has grown our capability in the big things.

                      I do have faith in Kiwi ingenuity, in the small things.

                      Many times in my life, I've had to find workarounds and substitutes, simply because New Zealand's month long supply lines can't get me a part or a tool in reasonable time. We are used to it.
                      And. I suspect we are going to get many of our competent tradespeople back from Australia, if we start to value them, again.

                • Brigid …
                  2 April 2020 at 12:13 pm

                  "It needs a Government with the courage to say we have to increase the Government share of the economy." Too true.

                  Unfortunately I don't think Grant Robertson has such courage or perhaps that he even understand the consequences of the economy being left in the hands of private interests.

                  • KJT …
                    2 April 2020 at 1:13 pm

                    It remains to be seen.

                    But, the fact he went ahead with the minimum wage rise and a rise to welfare, even if small, suggests he is not that much of an ideological neo-lib.

              • Nic the NZer …
                2 April 2020 at 11:50 am

                Stop fearmongering without basis. New Zealand and Australia can afford wage subsidies in 3 months time as will likely be necessary. New zealands economic sovereignty is the reason for that and not under threat.

                • RedLogix …
                  2 April 2020 at 10:50 pm

                  The NZ dollar is not a reserve currency. The more we borrow the lower the value of our currency drops. Drop too far and our assets become available to overseas buyers at very low prices …

                  Whether it's three months or six I'm not sure anyone can tell; but logically borrowing to fund this cannot go on forever so there must be some upper limit. Any ideas?

                  • Nic the NZer …
                    8 April 2020 at 9:25 am

                    "The more we borrow the lower the value of our currency drops. Drop too far and our assets become available to overseas buyers at very low prices …"

                    Your claim is not substantiated by any correlation between govt debt levels and the value of countries currencies however.

      • mauī 4.2.2
        2 April 2020 at 2:32 pm

        Yes, another superb commentary by Gareth. He would offer some sublime leadership and ideas in the Command economy we are heading into.

    • pat 4.3
      2 April 2020 at 12:32 pm

      Morgan misrepresents what is occurring….he makes the same misidentification as Rod Oram did the other day….the government largesse is not a stimulatory measure , it is life support ….and the business support is not a universal underwriting of business viability but will dispensed on the basis of future viability (as determined by the banks)…there will be a few exceptions deemed nationally critical such as Air NZ…Robertson has repeatedly explained this.

      All of this is short term and temporary…..if it proves not to be then the debate can be had.

      What Morgan appears to be calling for is some form controlled herd immunity so business may resume asap and let the chips fall where they will…..as a strategy its both mindless and heartless not to mention entirely impractical but it is a sure fire way to create the conditions that could see the implementation of martial law

    • Gabby 4.4
      2 April 2020 at 3:49 pm

      Didn't he say spend money on people, not failing businesses? You disagree with that?

      • KJT 4.4.1
        3 April 2020 at 8:33 am

        Gareth's motives, are fine.

        It is his reliance on the economic dogma that has been applied, and failed, that is questionable.

  5. Treetop 5
    2 April 2020 at 9:45 am

    I have just been looking at Susan Miller who is an astrology. She has a 2020 Corona virus outlook. The planets are certainly aligned and her prediction is based on astrology.

    Note: if not a believer, each to their own.

  6. Ad 6
    2 April 2020 at 9:49 am

    The whole of Bauer Media just went under.

    Listener, Woman's Weekly, Woman's Day, North and South.

    Plus a whole swathe of trade publications.

    • mickysavage 6.1
      2 April 2020 at 10:01 am

      Yeah I have been trying to write a media article about implications which was decidedly pessimistic. Looks like I was beaten to it.

      Herald has to be in the gun too.

    • weka 6.2
      2 April 2020 at 10:16 am

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/media/02-04-2020/publisher-of-nz-listener-womans-weekly-north-south-to-shut-down/

      A mix of not being able to publish in hardcopy during the lockdown, as well as the drop in ad revenue from other businesses affected by the lockdown? I assume this is a pragmatic decision from the German owners around their own business survival post-pandemic.

      Gareth Morgan should do something useful and buy the Listener then hand it over to someone else to run.

      • Carolyn_Nth 6.2.1
        2 April 2020 at 10:26 am

        Yes, it IS a German owned conglomerate.

        In the short to medium term this is devastating for the NZ employees of the conglomerate.

        But it might also be an opportunity to return media to NZ ownership, and possibly to break up the neoliberal conglomerates.

        The financial basis for doing this is no doubt problematic. But it could lead to breaking the neoliberal ethos that dominates our news media.

        • weka 6.2.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 10:33 am

          I hope so. It would be very cool if some of the progressive journos got together and formed a collective. No-one would do that before because of the financial risk, but now so many are losing their income 🙁

          Time for a range of new non-corporate funding options to be explored. Won't solve the investigative journalism issue though, which I assume needs major infrastructure.

          I wonder how Newsroom and The Spinoff are doing.

          • Carolyn_Nth 6.2.1.1.1
            2 April 2020 at 11:00 am

            The seem to use various funding sources, and don't seem to be dependent on advertising. Newsroom was initially set up by sponsorship from Auckland and Victoria Universities. Now they do use some corporate sponsorship as well as continuing tertiary funding. They also get some funds from their Newsroom Pro, which is a

            subscription service for corporations, government agencies, local councils, NGOs, and other premium clients, is based in Wellington.

            Spinoff was founded initially by Lightbox, but now uses some funding from "partners", meaning some "brands", plus they get some government funding from NZ On Air, and Creative NZ.

            Both use PressPatron for public donations.

            I think you are on the right track to point to these publications, weka, because they look to be in a good position to pick up some of the slack left by Bauer's withdrawal from NZ.

            I think it probably should be on the government's public service media agenda to support such publications as part of it's Covid-19 economic package.

          • Anne 6.2.1.1.2
            2 April 2020 at 11:30 am

            Can't wait for the likes of Mike Hosking, his wife (whose name I can never remember), HDPA, Barry Soper and that doyen of the CC deniers, Leighton Smith go down in a heap of burning cinders.

            They will have to sell their mansions, holiday homes (they don't have baches and cribs), their orchards and vineyards.

            Poor things.

        • Ad 6.2.1.2
          2 April 2020 at 11:07 am

          This is a media death-spire which is a permanent alteration to media.

          Most if not all of those publications will not come back. Many more radio stations will die. Maybe a few of the hardy trade publications will get picked up.

          We can list the sum total of the surviving media like so:

          – TVNZ (in its digital form once merged with RNZ)

          – Mediaworks including TV3 and the radio stations (but we know Oaktree will sell or just kill them off one by one)

          – NZME/NZHerald

          – Otago Daily Times. Family owned.

          – Kiwiblog

          – The Standard

          – The Daily Blog

          – Scoop (for those who just want to see the raw releases)

          I think that's it now.

          Can anyone think of a publication which can survive three monthly cycles with a 90% drop in advertising?

          But the ginormous winners are:

          – Facebook

          – Baidu

          – Google

          – FoxNews

          And after that it really just

          • weka 6.2.1.2.1
            2 April 2020 at 12:24 pm

            has Mediaworks already been sold then?

            • Ad 6.2.1.2.1.1
              2 April 2020 at 12:50 pm

              Oaktree Capital haven't had it for that long.

              They are selling off their New North Road headquarters and retreating to Ponsonby Road.

              The New Zealand media that survive are the ones that have state funding in very large lumps.

              Even with that state funding it would be interesting to see if Maori TV survives.

          • millsy 6.2.1.2.2
            2 April 2020 at 4:57 pm

            Its pretty ironic that mass deregulation only leads to less choice and diversity, as big players swallow up smaller players.

            The US market is more regulated than ours, yet, it has way more media choices, especially in the likes of radio and suscriber TV.

            For example, there is no way anywhere in the world that a pay TV operator would have been able to own a free to air channel (Prime), or single operators would be able to own multiple radio frequencies in the same area.

            If the ComCom had any imagination, they would have waved through the Sky/Vodafone and StuffMe mergers on the condition that Sky sells Prime, and NZME sells some of its radio 'brands'.

            • Ad 6.2.1.2.2.1
              2 April 2020 at 5:08 pm

              The US is the biggest media market in the world so I can't see how the comparison is useful. It has more choices because it has 330 million people, and we have less than 5.

              I'm not sure why you're complaining about lack of media diversity here but also supporting the mega-merger. As you can see today a merger of titles is no protection against total loss.

              Sky is next on the data-watch list.

              The media rules for everyone from the Prime Minister to the Commerce Commission to the Minister of Broadcasting to the remaining leaders and brands are getting re-written right this very day.

              • millsy …
                2 April 2020 at 5:16 pm

                "I'm not sure why you're complaining about lack of media diversity here but also supporting the mega-merger."

                As I said before, the Commerce Commission could have asked Sky to sell Prime, and NZME some of its radio brands.

                • Ad …
                  2 April 2020 at 5:30 pm

                  Very hard to know all the variations that were proposed through the multiple High Court challenges to the Commerce Commission double refusals.

                  All too late now anyway. No sport, so no Sky.

    • observer 6.3
      2 April 2020 at 10:41 am

      It's very sad news indeed.

      But a four week shutdown with a big wage subsidy does not kill a successful business.

      • cricklewood 6.3.1
        2 April 2020 at 12:28 pm

        Oh it can and it will kill more, the advertising industry is all but dead for the foreseeable, retail shops will be decimated, pretty much everything travel related is toast, the list is huge and the flow on effects are going to be massive.

        Watch Suicides increase dramatically in the next 12 months, everyone is fearing Covid right now but the really scary thing is how the country looks in 3-6 months.

        Mortgage holidays just kick the can down the road, consumer debt will be left unpaid, Debt collectors will be busy…

        • observer 6.3.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 12:35 pm

          Yes, the effects are massive. No argument.

          But the fantasy is that the lockdown is the cause, and somehow NZ could escape the virus and the horrendous global consequences by doing … something that is never made specific.

          The choices were Bad or Worse or Unthinkable. We've gone with Bad and that was the right choice.

    • The Al1en 7.1
      2 April 2020 at 10:34 am

      Yeah, where will Paula get on a front page now.

      • Grant O'Connell 7.1.1
        2 April 2020 at 10:45 am

        The Allen

        Probably in the same media outlets that places Jacinda on the front page.

        But given that the remaining media outlets are increasingly likely to be owned by the government only, Paula won't get a look in.You'll only have Jacinda to look forward to on a regular basis.

        Today's news represents a major blow to the freedom of expression and the contest of ideas in New Zealand society.

        • observer 7.1.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 12:23 pm

          Why, have they closed down Google and Facebook and Twitter and all the other outlets for media and social media? There are vastly more outlets for free speech than there ever were in the glory days of magazines.

          Today's news is bad for many reasons, not least the people losing their jobs. But it has no lasting effect on "freedom of expression", and trying to crowbar it in is pretty low.

          • weka 7.1.1.1.1
            2 April 2020 at 1:49 pm

            investigative and indepth journalism in NZ was already struggling. More shutting down and leaving us with twitface google is actually really bad.

            • observer 7.1.1.1.1.1
              2 April 2020 at 2:01 pm

              Shutting down journalism is really bad.

              But the FreezePeach line is not about journalism. They don't care about that.

              Our freedom to spew is unimpeded (the Listener didn't have to publish my letters, the internet does). Information is what we are losing.

              • weka …
                2 April 2020 at 2:16 pm

                Yes but we had freedom to speak before the internet so that aspect of it really has nothing to do with access to twitface google, if we are talking about the state not controlling what people can say.

                However they said freedom of expression, and also said, in the same sentence, the importance of contesting ideas, which I think speaks more to their concerns about the MSM. I'd prefer a broad and robust MSM. Not sure if today's closure threatens that or not.

        • KJT 7.1.1.2
          2 April 2020 at 12:48 pm

          I note that when we had State owned media, they actually had much better journalism, and a greater diversity of opinion, than we've had recently.

          My hope is that the unemployed, real, journalists, club together to give us something great.

        • McFlock 7.1.1.3
          2 April 2020 at 1:02 pm

          If one organisation going under is a major blow to freedom of speech, speech wasn't that free in the first place.

          Sucks for the staff, though.

          • weka 7.1.1.3.1
            2 April 2020 at 1:50 pm

            we can hope it's only one organisation.

            • McFlock 7.1.1.3.1.1
              2 April 2020 at 4:39 pm

              Sure, there's a wider issue about media in general, but I was particularly replying to the "today's news" bit,

        • The Al1en 7.1.1.4
          2 April 2020 at 3:09 pm

          Knew it wouldn't be long before a "but Jacinda" came along lol

        • Incognito 7.1.1.5
          2 April 2020 at 10:38 pm

          I blame Coltheman and his campaign #turnardern.

    • Incognito 7.2
      2 April 2020 at 10:44 pm

      OTOH, if they had announced it yesterday …

  8. Sanctuary 8
    2 April 2020 at 10:44 am

    The Bauer decision smacks of a bit of disaster capitalism, they've been looking to off load those mastheads for a while so why not do it now and blame the virus/govt.

    • ScottGN 8.1
      2 April 2020 at 1:13 pm

      Exactly. They’ve been in the shit for ages. Now they have a handy excuse to pull the pin and something to blame other than their own incompetence and irrelevance.

    • Jimmy 8.2
      2 April 2020 at 2:29 pm

      Unfortunately, they probably wont be the last company to do this.

  9. Observer Tokoroa 9
    2 April 2020 at 10:44 am

    To; Mickey Savage – and To; Weka

    It is a great Loss. The Listener – a truly brilliant weekly publication. Somehow, I feel the bones of the Listener wiil lay restless – but with Pride.

    It will no doubt choose to fly a high Flag. Towering over the brilliance of little New Zealand.

    • Carolyn_Nth 9.1
      2 April 2020 at 11:02 am

      The Listener used to be a brilliant publication, but has declined in recent years.

      • xanthe 9.1.1
        2 April 2020 at 11:24 am

        Ever since the listener started publishing unsigned "editorials" it was clear they were stuffed

      • Bearded Git 9.1.2
        2 April 2020 at 12:43 pm

        I haven't read it for years since it shifted to the Right.

        • ScottGN 9.1.2.1
          2 April 2020 at 1:39 pm

          I haven’t read it for years either. Not since they disgracefully got rid of Lois Daish, one of the few really good food writers we’ve ever had in NZ. Coincidentally as I heard the news about Bauer on the radio today I was just putting Lois’s great Lemon Macaroon Cake in the oven.

        • Whispering Kate 9.1.2.2
          2 April 2020 at 1:41 pm

          It's is lifestyle and health magazine with some light opinion pieces, some of which can sometimes be a bit of light relief. Nothing more nothing less. Anything which engages the brain and leaves you asking for more has been absent many years now -even the TV guide is useless as the content isn't worth watching anyway. No tears from this writer.

  10. xanthe 10
    2 April 2020 at 10:45 am

    *&ck the "media" The private media for profit and propaganda model was and is broken. My heartfelt plea to this government is to let them fall . and establish a proper independent state funded media.

  11. Obtrectator 11
    2 April 2020 at 12:20 pm

    The BauerMedia closure will be nothing short of disastrous if those iconic titles are allowed to disappear permanently. They're a NECESSITY for information, entertainment (most important in a time of severe lockdown), and morale generally.

    The government will take a huge hit from this unless they change their tin-eared approach very, very quickly.

    • observer 11.1
      2 April 2020 at 12:29 pm

      Only if people are dumb enough to believe "Jacinda dunnit". Or more likely, pretend to believe it for tiresome point-scoring.

      The history of print media is littered with shutdowns and strikes and titles transforming. The Times of London was off the shelves for a year back in the pre-digital age. It's still around.

      Global recession + internet = no advertising. Add in a conglomerate that cares little for NZ's "icons" and you have an inevitable result. Only the excuse has changed.

      • Obtrectator 11.1.1
        2 April 2020 at 5:35 pm

        Only if people are dumb enough to believe "Jacinda dunnit".

        Quite a lot of dumb people around, me ol' fellow-Ob. (Cf USA, Brazil, etc.)

    • Bazza64 11.2
      2 April 2020 at 6:20 pm

      Don't think it will be that disastrous (apart from the people losing jobs) there are plenty of other news sources & people quickly adapt. In 6 months time they will probably be mostly forgotten.

  12. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 12
    2 April 2020 at 12:33 pm

    Lol – just watching Parliament TV and the Natz trying to be seen as relevant by picking small holes in the government's response to the pandemic. And, incidentally, wasting the time of important people who should be dealing with important matters.

    Just remember, if you want an indication of how Simon and the Natz would have handled this crisis, just look at what Trump, Johnson and Morrison have achieved.

    They would have put the interests of the economy first, however much they are rabbiting on about quarantine and so on.

  13. joe90 13
    2 April 2020 at 12:55 pm

    Vitaly Albatros; life's generally shit so C19 is the least of our concerns.

  14. Chris 14
    2 April 2020 at 1:27 pm

    The NZ Police are now going to at least have a chance at becoming half-decent now that the crooked piece of filth Mike Bush has finally slung his hook.

    • Treetop 14.1
      2 April 2020 at 7:44 pm

      With a bit of luck the old creepy way those from Bush'es era think, is gone from the Office of the Commissioner of Police. I have dealt with creepy top cops and unfortunately I might need to again.

      I am looking forward to see what Andrew Coster does age 44 to modernise the NZ Police and to reduce certain behaviour.

      I do have praise for frontline cops and know that they do good work.

  15. observer 15
    2 April 2020 at 1:32 pm

    Follow-up: Bauer have now admitted that they did NOT apply for the wage subsidy. Even though the government was willing to pay it.

    So unless you think the government should have allowed all economic activity to continue, or spend up large on advertising in magazines, then I'd suggest looking elsewhere for a scapegoat.

    (Bauer's CEO is worth $3 billion. Just saying).

    • pat 15.1
      2 April 2020 at 1:34 pm

      Think it fairly safe to assume that the lock down merely advanced plans already in place

    • RedBaronCV 15.2
      2 April 2020 at 1:59 pm

      Yeah I think they are just taking advantage of the shutdown – and from Germany this place would look like a far off nuisance.

      However, I'd like to think that one of the state owned media would buy the titles for a $1 and put the journo's on the wage subsidy until this can be sorted through.. Also and this has happened with some of the newspapers – because they have been operating so long the back numbers photo's etc are covered by our various archive acts so they can't be dumped in the tip or transfered off shore. We lost a lot offshore when some other newspaper closed.

      • alwyn 15.2.1
        2 April 2020 at 5:32 pm

        Why should the State owned media buy them?

        Why don't you make an offer with your own money if you think it is such a good idea?

        • KJT 15.2.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 5:37 pm

          The "broken record" strikes again.

          With the abject failure of the "small Government, low tax, privatise everything ideal, which is now costing us billions.

          You would think even the most committed ideolog,would have clicked, by now.

          • greywarshark 15.2.1.1.1
            2 April 2020 at 10:10 pm

            He/she can't give up teasing us with a carrot, and donkeys that we are, we go forward. You know the solution; send to Coventry.

            The person sent to Coventry is considered as absent; no one must speak to or answer any question he asks, except relative to duty, under penalty of being also sent to the same place.

            https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/sent-to-coventry.html

    • Fireblade 15.3
      2 April 2020 at 2:35 pm

      Stuff:

      Bauer Media Group has confirmed it did not apply for a wage subsidy to keep it going through Covid-19 disruption.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/120754944/publisher-of-metro-womans-day-closes-in-nz-amid-coronavirus-woes

      • RedBaronCV 15.3.1
        2 April 2020 at 3:03 pm

        Maybe we should just nationalise the group and pay everyone the $575 k a week. Then sort through the mess and sue the directors for running something insolvent and claw back any excess distributions. Covid didn't do this.

        • Stunned Mullet 15.3.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 4:13 pm

          'Maybe we should just nationalise the group and pay everyone the $575 k a week.'

          I vote no, the government should not be buying or running the women's weekly and other similar publications. If the publications are in serious demand they should be purchased by a private company.

          The NZ government has far more serious problems and issues to spend its (our) money on.

          • KJT 15.3.1.1.1
            2 April 2020 at 5:33 pm

            I think some Government seed money, including maybe the "wage subsidy" to a group of journalists, wouldn't come amiss.

            Though I consider print media pretty much overtaken by technology, we still need genuine, journalism.

            • RedBaronCV 15.3.1.1.1.1
              2 April 2020 at 7:48 pm

              Sorry I didn't really go far enough. No I'm not suggesting the government run it but if they can put it in a holding pattern & let the employees sort through the value as a likely co-operative while on the $575 a week that might give enough breathing space. It could actually be temporarily housed under one of the government media companies.

              Although I confess these are still maturing thoughts. Generally though it is harder to rebuild a business from scratch than extract value form an existing situation or see that value fall to overseas hands.

              • Carolyn_Nth …
                2 April 2020 at 8:02 pm

                I agree. Ardern was asked about the Bauer exit in her press stand up this afternoon. She said the government had offered them money to help them keep going but Bauer would not take it. Ardern said Bauer didn't exit NZ because of Covid-19, but were probably going to leave anyway.

                So if the government was willing to provide support to Bauer, why not give a similar amount of money to enable some Kiwis to take over, at least some of the publications – especially the Listener?

            • Ian 15.3.1.1.1.2
              2 April 2020 at 7:51 pm

              I have spent a good part of the day lobbying Fonterra directors to put a bid on the Womans Weekly .The dairy womens network could rebrand it to the Dairy Womens Weekly and educate the people on where their food comes from.

              • I Feel Love …
                2 April 2020 at 10:42 pm

                "Educate the people" – that sounded kinda … Stalinist.

              • lprent …
                2 April 2020 at 10:49 pm

                Hard to see how they would consider it bearing in mind their recent balance sheet write offs. I think that they have gone off the hopeless investment strategy.

                • Ian …
                  2 April 2020 at 11:12 pm

                  Correct. Jacinda gave Bauer an easy out by not declaring them essential. Companies like Jucy Rentals were struggling big time before this governance disaster and Likely to get a golden parachute as well. The list goes on. This government is completely out of its depth and we are the meat in a shit sandwich.

  16. ianmac 16
    2 April 2020 at 2:00 pm

    We thought that this is a worthy way of helping out the poor and the hungry.

    As the COVID-19 outbreak in New Zealand continues, we know that the most vulnerable in our communities are being greatly affected. Please donate to The Foodbank Project and support other Kiwis who are less fortunate during these uncertain times.

    https://www.foodbank.org.nz/collections/zuru

  17. Poission 17
    2 April 2020 at 2:43 pm

    With the debate on enhanced testing (to ascertain cv in the community) one of the better novel ideas is for sewage testing,

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.29.20045880v1

  18. Incognito 18
    2 April 2020 at 2:49 pm

    Good piece by Anne Salmond.

    As industrial styles of land use diminish these habitats, and species (including humans) that were formerly separated are brought into closer proximity, scientists have long suggested that diseases (eg Sars, Ebola, Covid-19) are more likely to jump inter-species barriers.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120738955/dame-anne-salmond-a-better-way-to-kickstart-the-economy

    • Poission 18.1
      2 April 2020 at 2:56 pm

      There are good examples of bacterial and virus interaction with human antecedents such as australopithicus in Plagues progress (arno karlen) where arthritis caused one species to descend from the trees,and here we are now.

      • Incognito 18.1.1
        2 April 2020 at 3:41 pm

        Yes, we can learn much from boring old science.

        Now, it seems, a tiny little virus will make us head back to the caves.

    • bwaghorn 18.2
      2 April 2020 at 4:55 pm

      Na the main reason they jump is filthy, and inhumane practices around meat markets . Love or hate supermarkets nz style supply chains you wont be catching a whole new nasty from them .

  19. adam 19
    2 April 2020 at 3:05 pm

    It's time to strike – when your in a shitty job, being paid shitty wages, told your essential then it's time to use that essential tag they threw at you and go on strike.

  20. RedBaronCV 20
    2 April 2020 at 3:13 pm

    Given the way our so called top business people are reacting to this crisis with yesterdays unworkable strategies then I think Grant needs to ask a few questions before handing out subsides.

    Things like – have all employees and directors who are being paid over $100k been reduced to the annual equivalent of $100k for the next 3 years. For the avoidance of doubt of doubt directors should be considered as a .15FTE as many sit on multiple boards. (Have they been advised that they may not resign without a doctors certificate and have they undergone drug & alcohol tests. – not really)

    Have all share buybacks been canned, are there worker reps appointed to the boards, Have plans been put in place to clawback excessive remuneration , dividends to overseas owners and other excessive payment arrangements.

    • alwyn 20.1
      2 April 2020 at 5:37 pm

      Would you think it a good idea if a maximum salary of $100 k be set for anyone who is working in the State sector.

      That would of course include all the MPs from the very top to the bottom. And we could remove all their perks. Do you agree? I'm sure Grant will implement it if you ask him nicely.

      • KJT 20.1.1
        2 April 2020 at 5:52 pm

        Something similar was the case in the State sector in the past.

        Salaries were not high, but they had job security, and regular pay rises, and various perks, to compensate.

        I haven't noticed extremely high salaries for some State employees, or even private ones for that matter, resulting in a lift in performance.

        In fact, in the private sector, high salaries at the top, are a good predictor of a companies lack of longevity.

        • alwyn 20.1.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 6:13 pm

          I wasn't actually claiming that State employees were necessarily on extremely high salaries.

          However RedBaronCV seemed to regard $100 k as being a perfectly reasonable absolute maximum so I assume he will encourage Grant to apply the same rule to everyone employed by the taxpayer.

          • RedBaronCV 20.1.1.1.1
            2 April 2020 at 7:41 pm

            Trying for the distraction again by referencing public servants.

            I have been discussing the private sector where top level salaries are huge compared to the average worker. We have been fed a diet for years about how these business leaders are so great etc etc that they deserve every cent. Well now there is trouble and if these businesses are to survive then they need to cut costs. Overall it is better for the economy if they do survive albeit for a time paying lower but more evenly spread wages. Once a business goes it's a lot harder to rebuild it from the ground up.

            A disproportionate level of payroll is going to the upper end so that is any easy hack and the recipients should have the resilience to wear this given what they have earned in the past.. Many of these businesses are also going to use the government subsidy. Taxpayers fund that money and the national borrowing will have to be paid back and this will fall harder on younger taxpayers who have many more years to pay.

            Frankly I am dammed if I can see why they should be lumped with the burden of supporting high end earners.

            I also understand that you are likely to be mourning the loss of the " greed is good mantra" and extreme capitalism but this crisis has shown that it is a very hollow beast if it needs to be fed by the state. So sympathy but the rulles need to change.

            • KJT 20.1.1.1.1.1
              2 April 2020 at 8:44 pm

              You may appreciate this article.

              http://kjt-kt.blogspot.com/2011/04/kia-ora-corporatism-and-neo-liberalism.html

              “The fact is all the overpaid managers, greedy directors and parasitic shareholders could not even live, let alone have fortunes without the efforts of cleaners, technicians, plumbers, lath hands, secretaries and rubbish collectors”.

            • alwyn 20.1.1.1.1.2
              2 April 2020 at 8:59 pm

              Do you really regard $100 k/year is huge, or upper end, or high end?

              If so why does that as a limit not apply to everyone. If you don't really see it as the top of what anyone should earn why do you propose that no-one in a private firm should earn more?

              • RedBaronCV …
                3 April 2020 at 1:08 am

                Twisting things .

                Suggesting that the high wages could be repurposed to minimize drain on the taxpayer before govt handouts are given is not advocating a blanket level .

                happy to drop to $50k but the $100k is the level above which disclosure is given in most annual reports so its useful to roughly calculate the skew or estimate the GINI .

                But hey if these overpaid managerial staff were that great then they would be easily able to ride out a month shutdown by having sufficient reserves. When their only strategys are firing people and wanting a socialist bailout then they are not worth the money being paid to them.

                However, I suspect that they will fight hard to remain part of the problem not part of the solution.

  21. Incognito 21
    2 April 2020 at 3:37 pm

    Lab staff put to the tests

    2 April 2020

    University of Auckland staff are working closely with the Auckland District Health Board to increase capacity for testing for the COVID-19 virus, including repurposing laboratory space and accredited laboratory staff volunteering to do the tests.

    https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/2020/04/01/lab-staff-put-to-the-tests.html

    https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/news/list.html?tag=news:coronavirus

  22. Treetop 22
    2 April 2020 at 3:57 pm

    I had a great time out doors today trimming back the tall grass adjacent to where I live. I found a really good use for a 350mm Mitre 10 handsaw cost $6.28c. It was better to use than hedge clippers ( which I would have had to walk 30 mins to get and I might of been stopped and questioned) or secateurs which cause joints to swell. The handsaw cuts grass really well from the base. Can't wait to get out there tomorrow for another hour.

    Also a handsaw is good to cut agapanthus. Ingenuity is a good thing.

    Has anyone found a good use for something during the lockdown?

    • mac1 22.1
      2 April 2020 at 7:13 pm

      Yeah, I made a fadge holder for the wool fadges I use for holding weeds on the way to the compost heap.. A commercial mower man was next door with a fadge holder and I thought I could make one like his from the poles of a small and cheap unusable canopy, the ones with the plastic corners and joiners that fit 12mm pipe. So I made a very light but strong square pipe framed box with 900mm sides and height and use 20mm plastic pipe split lengthwise to hold the fadge onto the top pipe rail. Cost nothing. Very useful and holds far more than a wheel barrow and is so easy to fill.

    • lprent 22.2
      2 April 2020 at 11:08 pm

      Has anyone found a good use for something during the lockdown?

      Tools.. yeah no problem..

      I was getting frustrated with having to go through hoops to push data back from a linux box to the code repository server at work.

      Problem was that the vpn able to access work was a windows only app due to compliance. But working at home I don't want to hook my monitor to the frigging laptop because it was setup for the TS server. So I code using the linux server and a bitlocked external SSD.

      But this was awkward, and on monday I managed to trash the bitlocked partition after the usb link to the drive went down during the weekend – looks like that is something to avoid with fuse file systems. After I recovered it….

      So I got the git tool to clone the repo on windows. Then got the git tool on linux to clone the code from the windows repo via the unreliable cifs over the bench network.

      Going the other way, edited code is committed to the local git and pushed to the windows laptop. Finally at the end of the day I push the culmative changes to the repo server at work.

      That saves me endless grief and still keeps those code mods safe and me not compromising my home setup.

      Is that the type of tool use you were looking for?

      😈

      • RedBaronCV 22.2.1
        3 April 2020 at 12:56 am

        Nah – sorry to disappoint.

        Now to digress completely. The RSS feeds on the side – for a couple of them when the title of the article is clicked on I would normally expect to see the actual article. However Frank's has always given us a nice picture of Frank and now Pundit gives us the Photo attached to the article. Any chance of dazzling them with a bit of computorize so they can rehook up the trailer correctly to the car – so to speak.

        Much thanks

      • Treetop 22.2.2
        3 April 2020 at 8:41 am

        "Is that the type of tool use you were looking for?"

        Yes (even though I do not understand what you describe) and it does not need to be limited to the use of tools.

  23. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 23
    2 April 2020 at 4:21 pm

    Chris Martenson on his latest Covid-19 Peak Prosperity



     [about 6.30 in]

    posting discusses the blame game – Dr. Birx saying that China didn’t provide enough data/correct data so the USA didn’t take the epidemic seriously.

    Apart from the fact that China lied, and everyone with half a brain knew that, he (Chris) pointed out that the American security services would have been listening to telephone/internet traffic in China throughout the developing days of the crisis. They (CIA or whoever) must have known how serious the problem was – but apparently they didn’t pass this information onto the White House, or Trump didn’t want to believe anything negative about his good friend Xi.

    Which begs the question: if the USA security service knew about the crisis in Wuhan, why didn’t the other 5 Eyes partners also know? And if they knew, why didn’t our spooks warn our government?

    It makes you wonder what the hell our GCSB or SIS or etc are doing, and whether they even remotely start to resemble value for money!

    • Treetop 23.1
      2 April 2020 at 5:02 pm

      Spys are not scientists. Maybe Governments thought that they were prepared.

    • bill 23.2
      2 April 2020 at 7:19 pm

      Dr. Birx saying that China didn’t provide enough data/correct data so the USA didn’t take the epidemic seriously.

      Dr Birx is a lying little cunt of a man then – Tony Veitch (not etc) who has been provided with, and never challenged, the published timeline that shows up Dr Birx as a lying little cunt of a man … right?

      Or are you so far gone that reason and common sense occupies a universe you're no longer a part of?

      Look. Here's a repeat of a link I provided under another piece of your xenophobic bullshit that will helpfully explain where these narratives you push are coming from. For an even deeper understanding and insight of the people and orgs pushing this barrel you've put your shoulder to, click through the links that the article provides. (The fair.org articles are comprehensive and worth the while)

      And when you've done reading, don't come back here posting any xenophobic bile and expect any kind of a free pass on the basis of your supposed ignorance.

      https://thegrayzone.com/2020/04/01/us-conspiracy-theory-on-china-coronavirus-trump/#more-22821

      • Macro 23.2.1
        2 April 2020 at 9:59 pm

        Dr Birx is a lying little cunt of a man then

        Except Dr Deborah Brix is not a man

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Birx

        • Bill 23.2.1.1
          3 April 2020 at 6:21 am

          lol Gotme!

          I admit I couldn't get the vid to play first time around and assumed the vids front picture….

          Anyway. My bad.

      • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 23.2.2
        3 April 2020 at 5:03 am

        You have just provided a great example of going off half-cocked without reading/watching the video – even though close direction was given to the relevant part.

        Of course Dr. Birx was lying – but that doesn't mean the CCP haven't also lied.

        You may say you're no apologist for the murdering repressive CCP regime, but . . .

      • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 23.2.3
        3 April 2020 at 5:29 am

        Try reading this link before commenting!

        https://www.nationalreview.com/the-morning-jolt/chinas-devastating-lies/

        • Bill 23.2.3.1
          3 April 2020 at 6:31 am

          On the one hand, there is your sickening Sinophobia, and on the other there is my recognition that all bureaucracies share distinct characteristics whether they are Chinese bureaucracies embedded within a state capitalist context or a NZ bureaucracy embedded within the context of a representative parliamentary democracy.

          I've provided comprehensive links from trustworthy journalists and publications that demonstrate the falsehood of the narrative you keep pushing – a false narrative that puts people of Asian appearance in harms way.

          • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 23.2.3.1.1
            3 April 2020 at 6:42 am

            Did you actually read the link and the embedded references?

            The Wuhan authorities actively suppressed (ie lied) information about the human to human transmission of the virus. Perhaps that information could have been useful to other governments?

            Li Wenliang warning other medical people about the emergence of a dangerous new virus and then was forced to admit to 'spreading false rumours' is not evidence of CCP lies/suppression?

            Dial back on the emotive language ('sickening') if you want to have a mature debate, hey.

            • bill 23.2.3.1.1.1
              3 April 2020 at 11:49 am

              So hang on, you are saying the local bureaucrats lied, or that the medical profession lied? And what did they lie about? Covid wasn't identified in early December, and so any information about transmission of human to human (if there was any realisation on that front) would have been a notification about SARs or MERs – ie, incorrect "best guess" information. The very type of information that Dr Li, somewhat understandably, but utterly unethically released to his class mates…and that he was correctly reprimanded for. (Just as would have happened in NZ, Germany, the US or elsewhere)

              I'm no medical expert, so I can only guess it takes as long as the identification of Covid took to identify a new virus. But sure, before the elimination of all other possibilities, it might be prudent to give authorities a heads up.

              So..

              Dr Zhang reports to the local Centre for Disease Control on Dec 27.

              The Wuhan Health Commission alerts the National Health Commission, the Chinese Centre for Disease Control and the WHO on Dec 31

              Covid identified on Jan 7

              Virus sequences shared on Jan 12.

              Btw, this new piece you're throwing up (The Lancet study it relies on) flat stick contradicts those stupid videos you posted before. Y'know, the ones that claimed to have identified "patient zero" and the source of the outbreak?

              Anyway…you mention "mature debate". So how about you get off the anti-China bandwagon that's stirring up animosity towards Asian looking people everywhere, and be aware there are identifiable actors in western circles who are furthering their own political agenda by creating and pushing the false anti-China lines you're posts have been running?

              And I'll say this again. All bureaucracies, whether Chinese or Kiwi or whatever, tend to self protect. So major issues are routinely downplayed or ignored (Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Christchurch asbestos, Mad Cows Disease….) while lower level bureaucrats learn to cover their arses and not be the messenger whose career trajectory will come to an abrupt halt.

              Knowing that, beyond a broader analysis, shouldn't our attention be on the bureaucracies and the decisions that affect us – ie, the ones we might have some impact on? Though maybe you prefer to be a footsoldier for someone else's cause and to spend your time firing off in the direction they point you at. I dunno.

              • RedLogix …
                3 April 2020 at 1:10 pm

                So how about you get off the anti-China bandwagon that's stirring up animosity towards Asian looking people everywhere

                How about a lot of lefties getting off the anti-Trump bandwagon that stirs up animosity towards white looking people everywhere?

                The logic of both statements being flawed …. but can you spot it?

                Here is the simple logic of what we are talking about. For decades the CCP has routinely lied about almost everything, from Tianamen Square, to their economic data, to organ theft, to concentration camps in the north, and on and on.

                Then they have no independent media. All foreign journalists are either expelled or intimidated. The have a vast firewall around their internet. And you ask us to trust them?

                • bill …
                  3 April 2020 at 5:27 pm

                  Where did I say that trust should be extended to a bureaucracy of any shape or form?

                  You think I question the stories coming from "our side" because I trust the word coming from some bureaucratic structure or other?!

                  And your comparison to establishment Democrats and their corporate media allies running crap lines against Trump (with all that entails) is a pretty poor comparison, but does give the lie to your implication that western media is 'independent' or free in any meaningful sense of the word (they "follow the script" aye?)

    • joe90 23.3
      2 April 2020 at 8:04 pm

      Dr. Birx saying that China didn’t provide enough data/correct data so the USA didn’t take the epidemic seriously.

      Or Dr Birx is doing her level best to lay blame anywhere but where it belongs.

      The American disease expert, a medical epidemiologist embedded in China’s disease control agency, left her post in July, according to four sources with knowledge of the issue. The first cases of the new coronavirus may have emerged as early as November, and as cases exploded, the Trump administration in February chastised China for censoring information about the outbreak and keeping U.S. experts from entering the country to help.

      “It was heartbreaking to watch,” said Bao-Ping Zhu, a Chinese American who served in that role, which was funded by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, between 2007 and 2011. “If someone had been there, public health officials and governments across the world could have moved much faster.”

      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv/exclusive-u-s-axed-cdc-expert-job-in-china-months-before-virus-outbreak-idUSKBN21910S

      • Andre 23.3.1
        2 April 2020 at 8:14 pm

        Both those things could be true.

        We know for sure that the White House response was utterly inadequate and incompetent even given the things that were publicly known early on, and she has every reason to try to divert blame elsewhere.

        But that isn't evidence for the accuracy or honesty of info coming out of China. I have yet to see any reason to be less skeptical of Chinese government statements than I am of White House statements.

        • Macro 23.3.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 10:12 pm

          We know for sure that the White House response was utterly inadequate and incompetent even given the things that were publicly known early on

          However I think we can fairly sheet the blame for the train wreck of inaction and incompetence that has been the US response to this pandemic fairly and squarely on the nincompoop who currently occupies the Oval Office. She is really just following orders.

          A Fireside Chat from POTUS in His Own Words

          (courtesy of The Washington Post)

          [Deleted long string of text with zillions of links in it. And where is the link to the quoted text?]

          • Anne 23.3.1.1.1
            2 April 2020 at 10:48 pm

            However I think we can fairly sheet the blame for the train wreck of inaction and incompetence that has been the US response to this pandemic fairly and squarely on the nincompoop who currently occupies the Oval Office.

            We can also add that America has such a narrow, one eyed ideological view of the world… they never set up a state funded health system (call it what you like) because they thought it was "Communism". Such a health system – which Obama tried to set up but was knocked back – would have been better geared towards a swift and commonsense response throughout the country instead of the fragmentation and the blame game they are currently playing.

            They have no-one to blame but themselves for their foolishness.

            • Incognito 23.3.1.1.2.1
              2 April 2020 at 11:18 pm

              Ta

              • Andre …
                3 April 2020 at 6:34 am

                I'm all for quotes being kept small, and I'm grateful to mods that go to the effort of trimming oversized ones. But if it isn't any more work, any chance of leaving a paragraph or even just a couple of sentences of the quote to make it easier to find the original piece?

                • Incognito …
                  3 April 2020 at 11:02 am

                  In this case, the title that was left behind after my mass cull was a strong enough clue, I thought. The onus is on the commenter to put in the link to avoid others (including Moderators) having to search for it.

                  We have been lenient lately, but this not-linking habit is getting worse and it will lead to ‘educational’ bans soon.

  24. millsy 24
    2 April 2020 at 4:48 pm

    We have a possible buyer already for Bauer's titles:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12322014

    People need to calm down, and realize that the closure of a couple of magzine titles is not going to somehow lead to Stalinist Russia.

    • Ad 24.1
      2 April 2020 at 5:11 pm

      With the complete liquidation of over half of our country's remaining print editors, photographers, reporters, columnists, copywriters, ad buyers, printers, and distributers, it's probably a bit early to tell everyone to calm down just because you can see that the vultures have arrived.

      • alwyn 24.1.1
        2 April 2020 at 5:41 pm

        Are you going to make an offer yourself if you think they are such a bargain?

        • Ad 24.1.1.1
          2 April 2020 at 6:12 pm

          It's not a bargain, it's a tragedy.

          Seriously I cannot get over the number of utterly heartless pricks here who just want a little giggle when multiple industries, careers, and families just got wrecked in a single day.

          • alwyn 24.1.1.1.1
            2 April 2020 at 6:59 pm

            What you are really claiming is that an obsolete industry, and that is what the newspaper and hard copy magazines are, should be kept going, and that the taxpayer should pay for it.

            Well I would rather pay for things that are useful, such as healthcare. If you have some spare cash available why don't we spend it on lovely things like the manufacture of horse drawn carriages? Why do we need cars, or even trains, when we can have the stage coaches like the ones Cobb and Co used?

            Why do we need the internet when we can use telegrams. They were much more romantic things than e-mails and everyone should be required to use them. Think of how you had them for weddings and the Queen would send you one on your hundredth birthday.

            We could even go back to using leeches in our medical practices. To hell with those new fangled things like antibiotics.

            I can quite readily have sympathy for the people who are losing their jobs, and I am not sitting having a "little giggle". The solution for the people involved is not to preserve their industry if it is obsolete. The thing to do is to retrain them for a new occupation. That is where our efforts should go. Our efforts shouldn't be spent on keeping alive things that nobody really wants anymore.

            Of course if you really think that the old must be preserved and used at any cost I assume you will stop using the Internet to communicate and get news. Limit your news to what you read in the daily paper and your commenting to writing letters to the Editor. Would you do that? I certainly wouldn't.

            • Andre 24.1.1.1.1.1
              2 April 2020 at 7:38 pm

              … sez the man who just a day or two ago was waxing poetic about his use of a slide rule and log tables.

              • alwyn …
                2 April 2020 at 8:54 pm

                You are absolutely correct. I do still have log tables and a slide rule.

                They are mine. I paid for them. I don't expect the taxpayer to supply me with new ones if I lose, or break, them. If I decide I still want them I will attempt to track down replacements and pay for them.

                Do you see the difference? What I do is what I would ask you to do if you think an obsolete technology should be preserved. Pay for it yourself.

                • McFlock …
                  2 April 2020 at 9:08 pm

                  Bit of an esoteric thread for a company that refused government assistance to get through the period where it couldn't sell to customers, and promptly folded.

            • Ad 24.1.1.1.1.2
              2 April 2020 at 8:30 pm

              If they were obsolete businesses I would agree with you.

              The NZ Women's Weekly had a readership of over 500,000.

              Even the Listener still had a solid subscription base of 30,000.

              Magazines are not necessarily obsolete.

              You are confusing obsolescence with the massacre of half an industry through Bauer treating New Zealand as a single unit.

              Yours is the same logic that enabled Roger Douglas to go through the entire country and kill whole industries within years. There was no need for the speed and force of that destruction in the late 1980s and there's no need for it now either.

              That is what has made the Prime Minister react so vehemently.

              To be really clear with you: there is no private sector industry in New Zealand outside of health that will not be devastated in the next year. So your sorry logic is just crap.

          • ScottGN 24.1.1.1.2
            2 April 2020 at 8:33 pm

            There’s going to be more tragedies and wrecked lives than you can poke a stick at in the coming weeks and months Ad. Most of us, however, won’t get a national platform like the media types do to bitch and complain about it. We’ll just have to get on and try and make the best of it.

        • Incognito 24.1.1.2
          2 April 2020 at 10:53 pm

          Can you please stop with the trolling?

          Comparing "Australasia's largest independent contract newspaper printer” with a TS commenter is either utterly stupid or a troll move, which is utterly stupid too. Can you use your newly found calculator and work out what I’m telling you?

  26. Rosemary McDonald 26
    2 April 2020 at 6:03 pm

    Whew. What a relief. Head MOH Honcho is going to look closely at the US CDC 's aggressive review of the Who Gets To Wear a Facemask policy.

    Despite health professionals and care workers and those with lived experience of surviving in a virus soup all clamouring for the Ministry of Health to review its decree that only those who are symptomatic and those in contact with obviously sick people need to wear masks…Ashley Bloomfield (who will deservedly go down in history as yet another numpty MOH Boss) still refuses to change that advice until he gets the go ahead by the experts on SARs type pandemic management…our US overlords.

    RNZ has the piece.

    Read it and weep.

    We are very possibly doomed.

    The clowns are running the circus.

    • pat 26.1
      2 April 2020 at 8:02 pm

      I feel you are being unreasonably harsh upon those working within the MoH (and DHBs)…yes the community care sector is and has been poorly resourced but are doing stirling work (some are exceptional) for scant financial reward but IMO the Gov response has been very good, perhaps given the starting point and timeframe , exceptional….that is not to say there are not shortcomings or improvements to be made but we would be hard pressed to find a more competent response anywhere else in the world.

      • Rosemary McDonald 26.1.1
        2 April 2020 at 8:59 pm

        Competent?

        You are joking right?

        Because there are health professionals out here who disagree.

        Like doctors and nurses and epidemiologists and other academics who don't require gimmicky hairdos to boost their profile.

        Still persisting in the message that asymptomatic people are not a risk to others….sigh.

  27. Herodotus 27
    2 April 2020 at 6:09 pm

    After reading and seeing idiots not complying with separation, which has the potential to extend this level 4 shutdown, and that we don't have a plan B to isolate.

    How will we know if what we have sacrificed was worth it, and the marginal cost should we extent this shut down ? especially as the personal cost (both financial and emotional) that we are all incurring increases.

    • McFlock 27.1
      2 April 2020 at 6:52 pm

      We'll know if we're using ice rinks as morgues and using the army to transport truckloads of corpses by the end of it.

  28. bwaghorn 28
    2 April 2020 at 7:10 pm

    My god I have to agree with bridges on something.

    All returning kiwis must go into compulsory 14 day quarantine.!!!

    • McFlock 28.1
      2 April 2020 at 7:17 pm

      Don't they already?

      Or is he after internment camps?

    • KJT 28.2
      2 April 2020 at 8:57 pm

      The "party of individual responsibility" doesn't trust people to use "individual responsibility"!

      Note that, those who are untrustworthy themselves, tend to be the ones that don't trust other people.

      • Incognito 28.2.1
        2 April 2020 at 11:10 pm

        Just saw your comment, a min after posting mine 😉

      • bwaghorn 28.2.2
        3 April 2020 at 2:56 am

        It's not about trust it's about stamping this fucking bug out.

        2 weeks in a motel isnt much to ask . The only ones who would bitch will be the ones who had no intention of self isolating.

    • Incognito 28.3
      2 April 2020 at 11:08 pm

      Simon Bridges said that!? The Leader of the Party whose dogma is personal responsibility? Or The Leader of the Party who is strong on Law & Order and that likes to pick on beneficiaries and others who’re already down? Give me a break, please! In the first meeting of ERC, he was asking repeatedly about over-reaching, etc. The guy is politicking, FFS.

    • mac1 31.1
      3 April 2020 at 10:17 pm

      Yep, didn't half make me want to sneeze!

      All good. Negative result. Today is 14 days after possible contact, so I'm free to…… stay at home, keep safe and plant leeks and onions. 70 year olds acknowledge their age and vulnerability, and stay in the bubble, at home with the bubbles, and toast life.

      I once played in 'Fiddler on the Roof" the role of the butcher, Lazar Wolf, who sang a duet with Tevya- "L'chaim!" "To Life!"

      'L'chaim, everybody, l'chaim".

  32. joe90 32
    2 April 2020 at 10:11 pm

    Epidemiologists did predict a second wave. But this soon?

    Henan province in central China has taken the drastic measure of putting a mid-sized county in total lockdown as authorities try to fend off a second coronavirus wave in the midst of a push to revive the economy.

    Curfew-like measures came into effect on Tuesday in Jia county, near the city of Pingdingshan, with the area’s roughly 600,000 residents told to stay home, according to a notice on the country’s official microblog account.

    Special approval was required for all movement outside the home, it said.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3078010/chinese-county-goes-coronavirus-lockdown-country-tries-get-back

  33. McFlock 33
    2 April 2020 at 10:36 pm

    So the "Cheese Pizza Award for Dumb Melonfarmer" goes to the dude who tried to drive a train into a USNavy hospital ship in Los Angeles because he thought it was up to something other than basic relief in a pandemic. Apparently he would "wake people up".

    Stupid never dies, I guess.

    • weka 33.1
      2 April 2020 at 11:53 pm

      Might be mental health issues.

      The US has a charge of train wrecking, of course they do.

  34. Jimmy 34
    3 April 2020 at 12:25 am

    Well that was a bit stupid of the health minister to drive to a deserted mountain bike trail when they are telling the public not to go hunting, swimming, surfing or basically anything. What was he thinking!

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/120780372/health-minister-drives-to-local-park-to-ride-his-mountain-bike-amid-coronavirus-lockdown

    • mac1 34.1
      3 April 2020 at 10:35 pm

      Considering all of the stupidity around in the world from anti-vaxers to conspiracy dreamers, from virus-proof youth to brain-proof world leaders, from media 'personalities' to foolish know-it-alls, from narcissistic sociopaths to the god-fearing righteous, probably he was seeking a moment's peace away from us all.

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