Open mike 02/06/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 2nd, 2022 - 139 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

139 comments on “Open mike 02/06/2022 ”

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  1. Jimmy 1
    2 June 2022 at 7:53 am

    I'm glad I don't live in South Auckland. It's like the wild west now.

    At least there were no ram raids last night.

    Auckland shootings: Person reportedly injured in drive-by shooting overnight – NZ Herald

  2. Sanctuary 2
    2 June 2022 at 7:56 am

    I guess the verdict in the Depp vs. Heard is a warning that fame, hubris and believing your own bullshit sometimes won't save you from a jury.

    I have no doubt that Heard and Depp had an absolutely awful time together, but quite why they simply can't admit it was a disastrous decision to get married, that they both went places they didn't think they were capable of going and just flush the dunny, take the lessons and move on older, wiser and a bit sadder I don't know. Now Heard will be forever championed as a victim by every freaking middle class postmodern feminist with a newspaper column and Depp will be legally vindicated, but never quite rehabilitated. Mud sticks, where there is smoke there is fire, etc etc etc.

    But both of them are now reputationally ruined and will probably never find really lucrative work again. Everyone lost except the lawyers and the media circus reporting on it.

    Is it too long a bow to connect this with this story and lament that we live in a world where it is always someone else's fault for your acts of commission or omission?

    • Belladonna 2.1
      2 June 2022 at 8:01 am

      Agree. I have champions on both sides in my family.
      I've resorted to the response, that I think they both behaved badly in the relationship, and I don't see any need for the media to report on the details of that behaviour – nor do I want to know!

      And in relation to the Otago incident:

      While I would like more ‘joined up’ care of the elderly – it is indeed challenging when there are multiple agencies involved – none of whom talk to each other, and all of whom rely on an often elderly, unwell or confused, patient to co-ordinate the care.

      The excuse of ‘privacy legislation’ has a lot to answer for.

      In this case, the daughter is clearly deflecting from the evident fact that neither she nor any other family member made any effort to contact her mother, or sound the alarm, in the weeks after she left hospital.
      It’s always easiest to blame ‘somebody else’

    • SPC 2.2
      2 June 2022 at 8:24 am

      I have not followed the court case. I am only aware it was 5 men and 2 women that made the decision to decide she defamed him by accusing him of domestic abuse and that this was malicious. Which means she is now bankrupt.

      Being an angry drunk is not domestic abuse but just cause for a divorce.

      I think an industry critic put it best, his career was already effectively over because he turned up at work not knowing his lines and getting angry on set.

      I don't know if feminists will champion Heard as a victim, but they will be more wary of the law being used to silence women who make claims about abuse.

      In Sweden there were a dozen cases where women who made public assault accusations were put on trial, and all were convicted.

      https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/05/06/in-sweden-defamation-claims-against-metoo-raise-fears-of-a-return-to-the-culture-of-silence_5982637_4.html

      https://www.europenowjournal.org/2020/03/09/saying-metoo-in-the-swedish-legal-system-the-importance-of-believing-women/

      https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/03/15/opinion/cissi-wallin-fredrik-virtanen-metoo-sweden.html

    • Chris T 2.3
      2 June 2022 at 9:16 am

      I hadn't actually followed it that much, but from the little I did see it was kind of obvious while he might be considered a bit of a weirdo by some, she could equally be considered a bit of a nutbar. (I am in the later camp btw. She obviously has issues)

      Wouldn't have wanted to be on a jury dealing in a case with 2 actors. Their living is making people believe they are not who they are. We are talking about a dude who made it look right there would be a dude with scissors for hands.

      I think at the end of the day the right decision was made, but she ain't going to do their careers any favours. Though he will probably still be alright, as he is a money drawing machine.

      If it were me and I was Depp and worth, even after throwing away so much money, and still worth 150 – 250 million would say "Keep the cash. I don't want to make you destitute", just to rub it in.

    • Tony 2.4
      2 June 2022 at 1:43 pm

      Sanctuary says .. both of them are reputationally ruined and will probably never find really lucrative work again .. ha ha ha ha, thanks for the giggle at your ignorant statement. Did you not read the news that Tim Burton, Martin Scorsese and Quenton Tarintino are all lining up to get Mr Depp in their next movies?

  3. Adrian Thornton 3
    2 June 2022 at 8:11 am

    I wonder how many of this woman’s outrageous unverified propaganda stories our local war promotors Joe 90, Jenny How to get There and others have gleefully covered these pages with?…quite a few I would imagine….. some of these Standard commentators would do themselves this site and the cause of the Ukrainian people a service, if they closely read and take note of some of the contents of the open letter published by Ukrainian media on the subject of propaganda…some of which is pasted below.

    Ukraine Official Fired Over Handling of Russian Sexual Assault Claims

    "The move to dismiss Denisova came after outrage about the wording used in public reports about alleged sexual assaults committed by Russians, as well as the alleged dissemination in those reports of unverified information"

    "Ukrainian media outlets and journalists signed an open letter in which they requested that reports concerning rape and sexual assault be "published with caution,"

    ""it is important to understand that sexual crimes during war are an instrument of genocide, an instrument of waging war without rules, but they cannot serve as illustrative material to inflame the emotions of the audience."

    “one member of the Ukrainian parliament, Pavlo Frolov, provided a number of reasons why Denisova was removed, including “the numerous details of ‘unnatural sexual offenses’ and child sexual abuses in the occupied territories, which were unsupported by evidence and only harmed Ukraine.”

    https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissioner-human-rights-removed-russian-sexual-assault-claims-1711680

    [stop taking pot shots at other commenters. You’ve already been warned about this. Next time you can expect a ban. If you can’t stick to the politics then you will lose your commenting privileges. Personally, I’m also sick of your patronising tone. – weka]

    • RedLogix 3.1
      2 June 2022 at 8:33 am

      Shows the Ukrainian govt authorities have a good deal more integrity and probity than than Russia – whose state run media pundits are routinely talking up in the most grotesque, irresponsible terms nuclear attack on NATO.

    • weka 3.2
      2 June 2022 at 8:35 am

      mod note.

    • weka 3.3
      2 June 2022 at 8:49 am

      and to focus your mind, the conversation in the backend will now be about how long a ban. Last ban for the same thing was only a month ago, and it was for a week. You seem to be ignoring moderation, so my feeling is to give a much longer educational ban and so mods can stop wasting our time on this.

      You are a long term commenter here, you know how the place works. Stop attacking or taking potshots at other commenters (hint: just stop talking about other commenters altogether), stick to the politics. Pay attention to what moderators says. If you are unclear, ask for clarification. Reread the Policy (top of the page).

      • Adrian Thornton 3.3.1
        2 June 2022 at 9:14 am

        OK fair enough I will take that on board…a question for you though.. doesn’t concern you that some very regular people here on TS, almost every day copy and paste wholly unsubstituted stories (propaganda) on the Ukraine conflict? and it is often of a revolting nature. And so lazily done, that they just paste up tweets straight from people like Lyudmila Denisova without a thought or bothering to take even a moment to check its authenticity….or a thought to the integrity of TS platform for that matter.
        I have often asked these people for verification to the claims,, but of course am just ignored.

        BTW my email address looks to be correct.

        • DB Brown 3.3.1.1
          2 June 2022 at 9:28 am

          'integrity' laugh

          He who claimed victimhood over my calling him names repeatedly continues his name calling and attempts at calling out all who oppose his obsessional unwavering dedication to HIS TRUTH AND ONLY HIS TRUTH.

          Which is something like: Russia's OK, just roll over and expose your belly.

          When I'm grasping for straws there's generally a milkshake at hand.

          • weka 3.3.1.1.1
            2 June 2022 at 9:36 am

            did you see the bit about not attacking other commenters? That applies to everyone. Give it a rest, the mods have this in hand.

          • Adrian Thornton 3.3.1.1.2
            2 June 2022 at 10:04 am

            @DB Brown…I have never in my life claimed victimhood on anything, anywhere at any time…so how about you put up a link.
            You are probably referring to the time when you began swearing at me on this site one evening….almost like that evening you really liked that DB Brown just a bit to much.
            I actually thought that was pretty funny.

            [no way am I spending time today on a flame war. I told you to focus on the politics and not the other commenters. You can clearly see that I told DB to leave it alone, yet here you are poking it with a stick. You appear to not understand what is happening here, but I am sick of explaining it and you’ve been told in the past. One month ban. – weka]

            • weka 3.3.1.1.2.1
              2 June 2022 at 10:12 am

              mod note. My very strong suggestion is you pay attention to what mods are saying to you and consider what this site is for.

        • joe90 3.3.1.2
          2 June 2022 at 9:29 am

          Here ya go.

          /

          Russian state outlet TASS reported Monday that an initial cargo of 2,700 tonnes of Ukrainian steel would be shipped some 100 miles from Mariupol to the Russian port of Rostov-on-Don. No commercial transaction or payment for the cargo was mentioned; the nearest producer, Mariupol's massive Azovstal plant, was destroyed and seized after a monthslong siege.

          Metinvest, the Ukrainian owner and operator of Azovstal, has accused Russian forces of stealing its products from the seaport.

          https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/russian-state-media-confirms-extraction-of-grain-steel-from-ukraine

          https://rossaprimavera-ru.translate.goog/news/6213fe34?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

          • weston 3.3.1.2.1
            2 June 2022 at 2:17 pm

            Did you see this joe ? from your link , The Truman Show very interesting article concerning the fantasy concoction part of the Ukraine story .

            https://rossaprimavera-ru.translate.goog/article/6453b6f5?utm_source=widget&_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

            • Joe90 3.3.1.2.1.1
              2 June 2022 at 4:56 pm

              And the relevance to the innate corruption and dishonesty of the Russian invaders is…?

              • weston …
                2 June 2022 at 8:56 pm

                Relevance ? What was the relevance of your comment in the first place ?oh right russians are thieves etc etc etc etc etc kinda boring joe .Pretty obvious the russians having just got the port open again wouldve just loaded the first ship with anything they could find lying around and in that regard they wouldve been able to find any amount of scrap steel if once upon a time it belonged to the ukrainians id say it was the least of their worries !

                The point about the article The Truman Show is that it completely dissects the whole Zelensky fantasy show revealing the shabby truth behind the facade of course its just one persons opinion but the author obviously knows his stuff and presents a very compelling and imo far more ' relevant ' take than yours for example.

                Thanks for the link much obliged !!

        • weka 3.3.1.3
          2 June 2022 at 9:29 am

          I don't follow the Russian invasion of the Ukraine discussions, including on TS, so I literally don't know what you are talking about. If you have a problem you want to point out to the mods, then explain it clearly and provide direct links.

          If instead you are saying that people on TS post politics that you disagree with, welcome to the club, we're all in that position. This is the point of TS. Authors put up posts, people get to discuss that, we have a robust debate ethic which means that people can argue hard. We have some rules around providing evidence for claims of fact, but people are free to express their opinion about whatever they choose.

          If you believe that something someone has posted has no basis on fact, then the mahi is for you to demonstrate how. Put up your own arguments, your own links and explain what is wrong with someone's argument.

          (saying that someone's source is inauthentic isn't enough, you have to explain how)

          If you find people are ignoring you, perhaps consider that this is at least in part related to your own behaviours. The patronising tone I've mentioned, and the attacking people. Calling people lazy. And so on.

    • aj 3.4
      2 June 2022 at 3:42 pm

      It's hard to know how deep the manipulation of public discourse is. The bottom has never been found.

      Last night, @BBCRadio4 aired a documentary which repeatedly accused me and other academics of spreading Russian disinformation.
      In a glaring and twisted irony, this amounted to an apparent smear operation that would not seem out of place on Kremlin media. Here’s why…

      After all, there is such a thing as truth ~ Victor Serge

      https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1531889802001391616.html

    • Jenny how to get there 3.5
      10 June 2022 at 1:19 am

      Adrian Thornton

      2 June 2022 at 8:11 am

      I wonder how many of this woman’s outrageous unverified propaganda Fastories our local war promotors Joe 90, Jenny How to get There…..

      No need to wonder any more Adrian, I can tell you exactly how many. For me, personally, exactly zero.
      Because of the 'Fog Of War', because I know propaganda is tool of war for all sides.
      I have deliberately avoided discussions of atrocities which are disputed, For instance I have never got involved in the disputes over the alleged massacre In Bucha.
      And instead have concentrated on evidence that can't be disputed or denied. Like for instance the destruction of Homs, and I have put up this evidence and asked the question of apologists for Russian and Assad atrocities, if this is not evidence of genocide? Not one of you have ever had the courage to venture an opinion.

      Putting up evidence of blasted cities, evidence which cannot be denied, or explained away, or excused, is always met with silence.

      Only recently have I strayed from this policy. It was after I saw the video and read the evidence of the Tadamon massacre. And immediately I realised that the evidence of this act of genocide, like the flattening of cities, was also irrefutable.

      The Tadamon Massacre…

      Amnesty International. Posted 14 May 2022 1:38pm
      By Kristvan Benedict

      By Mansour Omari

      …When a leaked video of a horrific massacre committed in 2013 by Assad regime officials came out on 28 April, I tried to avoid watching it or writing about it. This was impossible. The killings occurred in an area close to where I lived in Damascus. I had to watch it to check if I recognised any victims….

      ….Assad regime officials shot 41 blindfolded, handcuffed men into a pit. Their bodies were set on fire – some were possibly still alive, already in agony from being shot and falling into the death pit. They were set on fire with nowhere to run to and nobody to help them….

      ….The first victim to be recognised and confirmed by his family was Wasim Siyam, a Syrian-Palestinian baker from Yarmouk camp in Damascus, married with two daughters.

      https://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/campaigns-blog/tadamon-massacre-six-minutes-shocked-nation

      I have only one message that I want you, and the others like you to hear, Adrian. They are the words spoken by the Russian speaking villagers of Eastern Ukraine.

      .

  4. Gabby 4
    2 June 2022 at 8:24 am

    Doesn't make the Pootinistas the good guys.

    • weka 4.1
      2 June 2022 at 8:32 am

      If you change your email address in the field, the system treats you as a new commenter and holds back the comment. Please keep a record of what email address you are using.

      • Gabby 4.1.1
        2 June 2022 at 9:51 am

        I think I reentered my usual email address because it was blank. I am an ignoramus in these matters though.

        • weka 4.1.1.1
          2 June 2022 at 10:03 am

          you’ve changed your email address (it used to be a shorter version). This is why I said keep a copy, so if you don’t post for a while you can remember what it is. Lots of people use fake addresses, that’s not a problem. Using a new or altered one does what I said above.

    • Adrian Thornton 4.2
      2 June 2022 at 8:32 am

      What does that even mean?…and how does that relate in any way to my comment?

      Maybe you meant to say something like this…yes the Russians probably don’t rape babies but you just remember they are still the baddies…

      • Shanreagh 4.2.1
        2 June 2022 at 8:43 am

        I read that as a response (from Weka) to Gabby not to Adrian Thornton.

        • weka 4.2.1.1
          2 June 2022 at 9:31 am

          people on a mobile can switch to the Desktop version if they want to see comments properly nested and tell who is replying to whom. Link at the bottom of every page.

  5. Joe90 5
    2 June 2022 at 8:38 am

    Genocidal thugs are threatening Europe, again.

    https://twitter.com/SenatorMarkDaly/status/1532073563435724800

    Russian parliament member Oleg Matveychev then sent a chilling warning to Poland, declaring its borders would be “worthless” if it chooses to intervene more directly in the conflict.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/a-real-war-has-started-russian-state-media-warns-nato-nations-against-assisting-ukraine/I6A4PP2CR2I7MM7WCJEAYG5OHM/

  6. ianmac 6
    2 June 2022 at 10:03 am

    With the lack of MSM fair coverage of the PM it is refreshing to read Jo Moir's more balanced approach. Her take on the Oval Office visit was a case in point.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/the-twists-and-turns-of-six-minutes-in-the-oval-office?utm_source=Friends+of+the+Newsroom&utm_campaign=825adace1a-Daily_Briefing+02.06.2022&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-825adace1a-95522477

  7. tsmithfield 7
    2 June 2022 at 10:39 am

    A phrase I hear bandied around a lot by mainly left-wing politicians is the phrase "excessive profits".

    I thought what better place to ask the question about how to determine whether profits are "excessive" or not.

    From a right wing perspective, profits reflect factors such as, competition in the market, the need to generate capital for future growth, the need to cover risk, and return on the assets invested compared to less risky options.

    So, one billion in profit might seem like a lot. But, if it is known that the organisation is making that return on $100 billion of invested assets (1% return), and the environment is highly risky, then the organisation may have been better to have not been in the market at all, and have left its money in the bank.

    • weka 7.1
      2 June 2022 at 10:43 am

      Profit is for things like

      • covering overheads
      • paying decent wages
      • improving the business
      • having a contingency for emergencies

      I don't get your last paragraph, an example would help. How can excessive be judged out of context?

      • tsmithfield 7.1.1
        2 June 2022 at 10:53 am

        The example I gave demonstrates the concept of a "safe"profit.

        So, lets say a business has a profit of $1000 on $50000 turnover. It doesn't take much to go wrong for that profit to be wiped out and switched into a loss. So, profits need to be large enough to account for the risk involved.

        In some markets, where businesses have extremely good controls, and there is a high degree of predictability, then they can likely operate on much lower profit margins because their risk is a lot lower.

        For instance, for all the stick that Supermarkets get, they actually generate very low profits in percentage terms. They aim to make their profits on high volume. The reason they are able to survive on such low margins is that they have such good controls.

        Most smaller businesses wouldn’t have anything like that degree of efficiency, and so would need a much higher profit margin in most cases.

        • Blazer 7.1.1.1
          2 June 2022 at 12:17 pm

          How would you assess the big banks profits and their cost of.. capital?

          • tsmithfield 7.1.1.1.1
            2 June 2022 at 12:24 pm

            It looks like banks have fairly thin margins as well.

            I would expect that to be the case as the market is very competitive and banks essentially operate in a cost-plus type environment. So, fixed term loans are backed by the same term loans the banks are financed by, and floating rates adjust automatically.

            And they tend to be larger organisations with strong control structures, so they shouldn't often be hit by unexpected costs that erode their position.

            In the US, the ROE (return on equity) for banks was recently 5.31%.

            https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040815/what-level-return-equity-common-company-banking-sector.asp

            So better than “leaving their money in the bank”, especially since they are already banks!!

            • In Vino 7.1.1.1.1.1
              2 June 2022 at 3:02 pm

              To my mind both banks and supermarkets are highly-evolved versions of that eternal parasite – the clever, sly middleman.

              Squeeze the suppliers, and pay them the least possible. Then squeeze the end-customer so that they pay the most possible.

              Whilst doing so, build a dissembling structure to make it all seem fair, and so disguise the actual profit-gouging.

              Little changes over time…

              • tsmithfield …
                2 June 2022 at 4:06 pm

                So far as supermarkets go, I think we need to change our price expectations as consumers if we want suppliers treated fairly. That implies better prices for suppliers, which means higher prices for consumers.

      • Craig H 7.1.2
        2 June 2022 at 2:47 pm

        The first two of those have to be covered by revenue rather than profit as they are ongoing expenses. The second two are definitely funded out of profit though. The other main uses for profit are income tax and distribution to owners who normally expect a higher return than term deposit interest rates to make it worth the effort.

        • weka 7.1.2.1
          2 June 2022 at 6:00 pm

          The first two of those have to be covered by revenue rather than profit as they are ongoing expenses.

          Is that accounting semantics? If a company has money left over, why wouldn't they spend it on increasing wages or extra overheads?

          The second two are definitely funded out of profit though. The other main uses for profit are income tax and distribution to owners who normally expect a higher return than term deposit interest rates to make it worth the effort.

          I was thinking of those as overheads, but I'm not a business person so am probably using the wrong language 🙂

          • Belladonna 7.1.2.1.1
            2 June 2022 at 6:15 pm

            Is that accounting semantics? If a company has money left over, why wouldn't they spend it on increasing wages or extra overheads?

            Employee salaries are op-ex, because it's a cost of doing business.

            [NB: this is why so many businesses were potentially in strife during the Covid lockdowns, since salaries are paid out of revenue. No money coming in, means no money to pay employees]

            Would the employees be equally keen to have their wages cut if the company isn't doing so well? That's what happens to shareholders – there's no dividend given in a bad year.

            What (I think) you're getting at here is some form of profit sharing model. Where employees share in the overall profit of the company at the end of the financial year. Some firms do this – often through a bonus scheme.

            https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/010915/how-does-revenue-sharing-work-practice.asp

            • weka 7.1.2.1.1.1
              2 June 2022 at 6:42 pm

              actually what I meant was that as a business becomes more profitable, it can use some of that profit to pay a higher wage. What I think you are saying is that they shouldn't because it's not income that can be relied upon?

              But yes, definitely sharing profit too, good idea.

              • Belladonna …
                2 June 2022 at 6:50 pm

                Yeah. Profit is not able to be relied on – and doesn't always come in a nice even stream (some months are 'good' for cashflow, others are not) – which makes it very difficult to just raise salaries in the expectation that you'll have a nice EOY result.

                If that's your goal (enabling employees to benefit from the business – when they're increasing the profitability of that business) – then I think that profit sharing is a better methodology.

                • weka …
                  2 June 2022 at 6:53 pm

                  👍

                  What's the relationship between profit and revenue? Is profit always the excess that accrues unexpectedly?

                  • Belladonna …
                    2 June 2022 at 7:40 pm

                    Stolen definition 🙂

                    Revenue is the total amount of income generated by the sale of goods or services related to the company's primary operations. Profit, which is typically called net profit or the bottom line, is the amount of income that remains after accounting for all expenses, debts, additional income streams, and operating costs.

                    https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/122214/what-difference-between-revenue-and-profit.asp

                    Profit is the goal of a business (otherwise you might just as well leave the money in the bank, earning passive interest)
                    Any business should be aiming to be profitable: (though startups typically aren’t until multiple years in – they’re earning out their venture capital, and reinvesting in the growth of the business)
                    But the amount of profit can be aimed for, but not guaranteed.

          • Craig H 7.1.2.1.2
            3 June 2022 at 3:14 pm

            There are two types of accounting profit commonly talked about in analysing business performance, gross profit and net profit, but practically net profit is the aim of business and what is usually being referred to when someone uses the word "profit" in a business context, where your examples leaned more on gross profit.

            To explain, revenue is generally made by selling or leasing something (e.g. goods or services), whether directly to consumers, or to other businesses.

            Whatever that product is, it needs to be sold for more than it cost to make/buy or the business will go under eventually. For a shop, they buy goods for less than they sell them, and we often call the difference between those two figures "the mark-up" if applied to the cost of the product or "margin" if applied to the selling price, and the accounting term for the profit from this is gross profit.

            For example, a dairy buys a box of 24 x 600mL bottles of Coke from Coca-Cola for $2 per bottle = $48 for the box, and sells them for $4 each = $96.

            In this example, the mark-up is 100% of the cost, the margin is 50% of the price, and the gross profit is $2 per bottle = $48 per box.

            For simplicity, this ignores GST, and issues with the stock like waste (e.g. expired product), mistakes (e.g. errors on the till), theft etc.

            Now we pay other expenses like wages and overheads e.g. lease/rental costs, utilities etc. out of the gross profit, and the remainder is net profit. The percentage of net profit compared to revenue is often also called the margin. From net profit, tax is paid, and then we decide what to do with the rest of it (distribute to owners, reinvest in the business, retain as cash buffer etc.).

            This is obviously a highly simplified example, but hopefully helps give an idea.

            • weka 7.1.2.1.2.1
              3 June 2022 at 6:19 pm

              that's a really good explanation, thanks.

              Where do wages increases fit into that? The gross profit has to be stable enough over time?

              • Craig H …
                4 June 2022 at 2:31 am

                In a shop, higher wages require one or more of higher gross profit, savings in other expenses, higher productivity and/or lower net profit.

                Higher gross profit can be a result of either or both of:

                • Higher mark-up/margin from higher prices and/or lower costs (e.g. in the above example, Coca-Cola offers a cheap deal or a free box of product)
                • Higher volumes

                Lower expenses is harder, but some examples are shopping around for cheaper utilities or moving location to somewhere with cheaper rent.

                Higher productivity is essentially staff taking less time for the same amount of work/output e.g. installing a self-checkout reduces the staff time required for the same sales, and the savings could be put towards higher wages.

                Lower net profit requires the employer to accept less money which is unlikely but might happen if there is a labour shortage or a union involved.

    • weka 7.2
      2 June 2022 at 10:45 am

      this is paywalled, so I can't see the context, but upshot appears to be that gas companies are saying that meeting climate obligations will cost them money. Yes, that's exactly what happens when we spend decades ignoring the advice and cautions. What I want to know is how much profit those companies are making and what is being done with that? Their business model needs to change.

      https://bunny-wp-pullzone-vkc2vjtkjj.b-cdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/company-profits-climate.jpg

      https://twitter.com/Davidxvx/status/1532113943857991680

      • weka 7.2.1
        2 June 2022 at 10:48 am

        I put up this example because it demonstrates a clear conflict between public good and the profit-drive business model. There are people who want to make money even if it costs us everything.

        • pat 7.2.1.1
          2 June 2022 at 10:54 am

          Ignore the money for a moment and consider what those assets are…..they underpin our lives currently and remain needed until replaced by something other even if nationalised, and many already are.

          • weka 7.2.1.1.1
            2 June 2022 at 2:40 pm

            yes. However, at some point the idea that we have to have x service because we already have it, is not going to work. The sooner we talk about that, the better. We have time to change currently (no-one is saying remove all gas this year), but there will come a point when we don't.

            Like the gas companies, we've all had plenty of warning.

            • Poission 7.2.1.1.1.1
              2 June 2022 at 2:56 pm

              FF for energy and cement production peaked in 2005 and are now at 1986 levels per capita,6.94t (co2 euiv) in 2020 vs 6.94t in 1986.Every wind farmed that has been installed has replaced FF generation.(little excess generation as consumption matches generation on avge.)

              The government thinking on the stranded assets (gas lines and pumps etc) is that there will be some use in the reticulation systems for biogas,and or methanol.( Biogas coming from the central plateau) You do not remove infrastructure that may have alternative uses.

              • weka …
                2 June 2022 at 5:58 pm

                I meant gas supply, not infrastructure. Afaik new installs are banned from 2025.

                My point remains. People can lament that they need gas, but there will be no gas when civilisation collapses so it's a moot point. We need to shift our thinking to 'how can we transition?', not "we can't transition because…'

                • Poission …
                  2 June 2022 at 7:04 pm

                  we no how we can transition,it was in the released statements as well as pre announced.The limits for energy transition are on unexpected external costs and delays,high NZ construction costs (20% inflation last 12 months),RMA delays in the planning stage.

                  There needs to be either a large delay in large scale projects,or an increased series of smaller projects as distribution can contain costs.

                  Rule 1 is not to have excessive high capital costs in an energy project,as the costs will be inflationary.

                  • weka …
                    2 June 2022 at 7:05 pm

                    when I say 'we' I was referring to the general population a la Pat's comment. Most people aren't willing to change at the pace we need to. Yet.

                    • Poission …
                      2 June 2022 at 7:49 pm

                      The pace is that which we can afford,and inflation is making all options unsustainable unless demand and expectations are reduced.

                      https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=144918

                      The RBNZ and all central bankers have both signaled and moved to strangle inflation,high interest rates are here and staying.

                    • Belladonna …
                      2 June 2022 at 8:02 pm

                      The transition from gas to electric supply isn't quite as simple and straightforward as just buying a new appliance.

                      Fine for cooking and heating (you can switch to an electric stove, and get electric heating/heat pump). Just costs extra $$$ for appliances – but can schedule as part of appliance lifecycle.

                      But water isn't anything like as straightforward. Houses with gas hotwater systems do not have the inbuilt space to install a hotwater cylinder for electric generation. This may require very expensive retrofitting, or may actually not be possible in some units/apartments without infringing on the neighbours, or significantly reducing your living space.

                    • pat …
                      2 June 2022 at 8:13 pm

                      My comment wasnt so much directed that people are unwilling (though i believe most are) it was more that we dont have either the wherewithal or the time to make the transition WHILE maintaining a semblance of order while we go from one paradigm to the other…and ultimately we dont understand the limitations the reduced energy consumption implies….but nevermind, we will find out soon enough.

                    • joe90 …
                      2 June 2022 at 8:51 pm

                      This may require very expensive retrofitting, or may actually not be possible in some units/apartments without infringing on the neighbours, or significantly reducing your living space.

                      Out door DHW heat pumps. $5/6K. Three times or more efficient than gas or conventional electric water heating so they'll pay for themselves pretty damn quickly.

                    • weka …
                      2 June 2022 at 9:04 pm

                      My comment wasnt so much directed that people are unwilling (though i believe most are) it was more that we dont have either the wherewithal or the time to make the transition WHILE maintaining a semblance of order while we go from one paradigm to the other…

                      I disagree. The pace at which we locked down in March 2020 suggests that we can in fact make change fast. Different order of things, but chaos didn't ensue.

                      and ultimately we dont understand the limitations the reduced energy consumption implies

                      In what way? I've been in peak oil and then climate circles for more than a decade, and this is pretty well understood. Transition Towns and permaculture circles take a more proactive view and design systems that already powering down.

                    • weka …
                      2 June 2022 at 9:09 pm

                      The biggest elemental price increases since its last update at the end of 2021 were for stairs and balustrades, which went up 17.4% due to increases in precast concrete and structural steel, followed by substructure (10.1%), site preparation (9.7%), framework (8.3%), and windows and exterior doors (8%).

                      Oh come on. We don't have to build houses the way we do. We know that concrete is going to become less viable as we get closer to catastrophe, and we know that we don't have a future proofed supply of steel. So keep those things for essentials and start developing building practices that work within the limits.

                      Retrofit existing buildings rather than replacing them.

                      Stop throwing large amounts of build materials in the dump and set up systems for reuse.

                      Build from timber. Transition our forestry to take account of this.

                      Develop other materials that can sit alongside that.

                      and so on.

                      We don't have a shortage of houses in NZ. We have a shortage of available rentals and buys. There are so many ways we could start to live within our limits, we just don't want to (or lack the imagination of how)

                    • weka …
                      2 June 2022 at 9:11 pm

                      Belladonna, we have a long time to resolve those problems. And, every new build in most places in NZ should have passive solar design, including solar hot water.

                    • Belladonna …
                      3 June 2022 at 6:41 pm

                      @Jo90

                      This may require very expensive retrofitting, or may actually not be possible in some units/apartments without infringing on the neighbours, or significantly reducing your living space.

                      Out door DHW heat pumps. $5/6K. Three times or more efficient than gas or conventional electric water heating so they'll pay for themselves pretty damn quickly.

                      So just how do you fit these into an apartment complex? Or a townhouse where the only outside space is nowhere near the required plumbing?

                      The point is that there are some dwellings which don't have outside space usable. And their inside space requires 13 m2 clear space – which is quite a lot out of a small apartment.

                      6K (plus whatever is required for installation) is also a really high up-front cost. Your water-heating costs would have to be in the range of $10/month in order for it to pay off over 10 years. Which I doubt.

                      Do you have a link to the 3x more efficient claim? I suspect that is in relation to conventional hw systems, not gas.

                • weston …
                  2 June 2022 at 9:15 pm

                  Or we could just make our own gas weka its perfectly doable

    • The Al1en 7.3
      2 June 2022 at 10:46 am

      Yeah, won't someone think about the multi millionaires running companies with multi billions of assets.

    • joe90 7.4
      2 June 2022 at 10:55 am

      NYT piece on the legacy of Neutron Jack, the father of excessive profits.

      And in more than 100 conversations for “The Man Who Broke Capitalism,” my new book, from which this article is adapted, a broad range of people said some version of the same thing: While it has been more than two decades since Mr. Welch was C.E.O. of G.E., his legacy still affects millions of American households.

      Almost immediately after Mr. Welch retired in September 2001 with a $417 million severance package, G.E. went into a tailspin from which it would never recover.

      His pupils, though, went on to run dozens of other major companies, including Home Depot, Albertson’s, Chrysler and Boeing. Most of them failed.

      And in the decades since Mr. Welch assumed power, the economy at large has come to resemble his skewed priorities. Wages stagnated and jobs moved overseas. C.E.O. pay went stratospheric and buybacks and dividends boomed. Factories closed and companies found ways to pay fewer taxes

      https://archive.ph/tRrhB

    • Jimmy 7.5
      2 June 2022 at 12:13 pm

      I have not heard any MP's define what "excessive profit " is. It makes me wonder if David Clark and other Labour MP's thinks anything above break even would be an 'excessive profit'.

      Not sure why Weka doesn't understand your last paragraph…seems perfectly clear. If I had $100 billion it would have been better to put in a term deposit (risk free) at 2% and earned $2 billion (instead of risking in a business venture and only earning $1 billion or 1%).

    • Craig H 7.6
      2 June 2022 at 3:02 pm

      For the supermarkets, the Commerce Commission defined it by comparison to equivalent overseas markets as the starting point (I say starting point because obviously things like distance/shipping costs and NZ regulation/legislation can be factors as well). That's probably as useful a definition as any for NZ.

      Back when I was looking at buying a business, most business brokers considered a standard annual return on investment (ROI) to be 25% (to take into account risk), so that's a figure that could be used as a benchmark, perhaps increased for high-risk areas like cafes.

  9. SPC 9
    2 June 2022 at 11:59 am

    We have a new Mary Whitehouse prospect and she is no prude and looking for a husband, she will never ever divorce.

    Her name is Louise Perry and she writes for the New Statesperson.

    And the feminist bible for the 21stC (her book) is called The Case Against the Sexual Revolution: A New Guide to Sex in the 21st Century.

    Channeling every feminists inner Jordan Peterson she cites evolutionary theory

    Perhaps Perry’s most revolutionary move is to take apart the predominant feminist idea that rape is always about power, not sex – and turn to evolutionary theory.

    She argues that men and women are biologically different and that rape is somehow hard-wired into some males.

    She is facing head on the idea that rape cannot be stopped by “consent workshops” and rapists re-socialised. This is patently not working.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/300603182/the-sexual-revolution-has-backfired-on-women

    So she argues for women to opt out of enabling porn, legalised prostitution, drinking and hook-up dating apps (seeing these as part of rape culture) and encourages separation from men until marriage – and of course she opposes on demand divorce. She cites all the statistics about the declining rate of marriage and prefers church marriages to those with celebrants.

    She is so clearly offering herself to man who wants a church wedding to a feminist.

    A bit like Christabel Pankhurst

    Christabel urged abstention for men and women alike and argued vehemently against lowering high standards of sexual morality. She insisted that the suffragist's political militancy must be coupled with a lifestyle which was both sexually and morally above reproach. In her book on prostitution and VD, The Great Scourge, she summarized the behavioral mandates inherent in her theories in the slogan, "Votes for women, chastity for men!"

    By this time, a trace of racism had crept into Christabel's theories and policies. She began to argue that because male lust would lead to the degeneration of racial strength and the production of half-caste children, this eventually would weaken the British Empire. Therefore, women needed the vote for racial reasons as well as for personal ones because they had "a service to render to the state as well as the home, to the race as well as the family."

    While in Paris, Christabel also joined the lesbian feminist circle led by Princess Edmond de Polignac (Winnaretta Singer ), but there is no indication that she ever adopted a gay lifestyle.***

    In Confession #1, "Why I never Married," she explained that she had remained single in order to demonstrate "my own personal unending unyieldingness as a leader."

    When Christabel Pankhurst visited her mother in Canada and the United States in 1921, she became increasingly interested in Second Adventism, a movement which proclaimed the Second Coming of Christ. In 1922, she published her first Second Adventist books (The Lord Commeth! and Pressing Problems of the Closing Age) … In The Fighting Pankhursts, David Mitchell argues that "in the U.S. and Canada, Christabel Pankhurst raised Second Adventism almost single-handedly from its backstreet fundamentalist rut, lending it a dull gleam of intellectual prestige."

    https://www.encyclopedia.com/women/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/pankhurst-christabel-1880-1958

    Christabel's relationships *** (did not involve rape, nor produce children … but of course that was because … ).

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jun/11/vanessathorpe.theobserver

    • Muttonbird 9.1
      2 June 2022 at 12:27 pm

      I can't see men and women having changed that much.

      What has changed is disruptor tech in the sex space. We see it cause massive social damage in communication (Facebook/Twitter), housing (AirBnb), travel (Uber), and food (Uber Eats).

      And so Tinder, etc, is also emboldening both men and women into very high risk situations. Is swiping right seen as tacit consent by many under developed brains?

      I do agree with Perry that dating apps encourage rape culture, or at least don't do anything to reduce it.

      • SPC 9.1.1
        2 June 2022 at 12:49 pm

        Not so many years ago the advice on first dates was to go to a safe place to vet the guy. Before then last century the female was most at risk when drunk and alone at off licence gatherings.

        Now it's leaving bars/night clubs with someone they had just met (esp if not looking out for spiked drinks), or the hook up app – maybe people might consider using one where guys get rated for risk (screening on registering and on site hook up inter-action feedback).

      • Descendant Of Smith 9.1.2
        2 June 2022 at 12:56 pm

        What has changed more fundamentally is the law – removing the lawfulness of being allowed to rape your wife and the willingness to talk about it.

        I don't think we can ever know how much previous generations raped their spouses and partners. It was lawful and not talked about. I'm aware of one old acquaintance long since passed who was raped repeatedly on her wedding night, left, was returned to the marriage the next day by her parents and was raped practically every night (period, pregnant – didn't matter). She left once she got a pension at 60 and had her first income.

        A friend was raped in her workplace at 17. Never reported to the police, her family to this day don't know and she will never tell them. Still suffers emotionally 40 years later from that and the other violence that occurred at the time.

        It's a different world now. Having talked in my younger years to quite a few older women about this stuff I definitely think it is better. There is a certain rose tint to looking at the past that can hide how bad it was for many.

        James K Baxter's letters revealed some of this past norm. And for those who think it wasn't a norm should think about why it was legally protected for so long if it wasn't.

        In it Baxter writes: "Sex relations with wife resumed. This at least gives some common ground to stand on to clear up difficulties. Achieved by rape. From a very clear knowledge no other way could break down J's reservations & that she was gradually shoving herself round the bend. She seems ten times happier in herself. But it looks as if each new act will have to repeat the rape pattern."

        • Craig H 9.1.2.1
          2 June 2022 at 3:11 pm

          Have seen a bit of that in researching our family tree and it was not just wives, sometimes it was daughters as well. Once I was an adult, my aunts opened up a bit more about life as children and it sure sounded like there were some older male relatives who were to be given a wide berth, including avoiding their company without another adult chaperone.

      • Molly 9.1.3
        2 June 2022 at 3:28 pm

        There's been a noticeable increase in porn access for younger people.

        Porn itself has become more extreme and violent.

        It is reasonable to theorise that this, along with what you have mentioned has had some influence on sexual attitudes and behaviours, which also influence social public behaviours.

        I've recently done a lot of reading on the porn topic, and it's a really different landscape now from when I was young.

        It's hard to see how it wouldn't impact, and unfortunately the effect seems to be negative.

        • KJT 9.1.3.1
          2 June 2022 at 4:17 pm

          Well. We have just had a whole bunch of people on here, claim that watching movies, especially violent military fantasies, have no effect on behaviour.

          So. Are they going to argue todays violent and over the top, porn, equally has no effect??

          Certainly different from our youth. Hunting out National Geographics to find naked breasts.

          • Molly 9.1.3.1.1
            2 June 2022 at 4:47 pm

            "Well. We have just had a whole bunch of people on here, claim that watching movies, especially violent military fantasies, have no effect on behaviour."

            Missed that, thankfully, (Was probably busy reading about porn…wink)

            "Certainly different from our youth. Hunting out National Geographics to find naked breasts."

            Not my inclination, but I agree.

            It's a Brave New World out there in respect to porn.

            One item I read was a statistic on young people who used porn as a model for their own sexual behaviours. IIRC it was over 30% for young women, and over 50 % for young men.

            (I'll adjust/correct this if I can find the source, doing a mixture of digital and print media)

            Gonzo porn is a leader in porn viewership, and it is typically violent and misogynistic in nature. It's a real concern.

            • KJT 9.1.3.1.1.1
              2 June 2022 at 5:24 pm

              Young people today seem to be better at keeping themselves safe. In regards to pregnancy anyway. Teenage fertility rate in New Zealand – Figure.NZ

              Which gives the lie to the right wing fantasy about "hordes of teenage mums on benefits”. More knowledge must help in that regard.

              However I was rather shocked going back to High school, as a Teacher, how much open dis-respect that exists now between young people. All the education about consent, respect and the rest, doesn't seem to be gelling.

              The younger people are, the more difficulty they have in distinguishing between acting and real life. Plenty of evidence that youngsters shouldn’t be exposed to porn. How you do that, is a problem that is likely unfixable.

          • Puckish Rogue 9.1.3.1.2
            2 June 2022 at 6:56 pm

            If watching Top Gun: Maverick makes more people enlist in the military then thats a good thing

            I'll bow to your greater knowledge in regards to violent and over the top, porn.

            I prefer the over the top funny stuff: "Have you got stuck making the bed again stepmom?"

          • Brigid 9.1.3.1.3
            2 June 2022 at 9:08 pm

            'Hunting out National Geographics to find naked breasts.'

            But why? Why did you need to? Did it not occur to you that the breasts were part of a sentient being. One like your sister, mother, aunt,daughter?

    • weka 9.2
      2 June 2022 at 2:44 pm

      your first set of quotes needs a link SPC.

  10. AB 10
    2 June 2022 at 12:51 pm

    Has anyone seen the bit where Joe Biden tells Ardern that her "addiction to wasteful spending" has caused global inflation? I heard a whisper that he was especially agitated about a "slow train to Hamilton". I've tried to find it – but no luck.

  11. Molly 11
    2 June 2022 at 2:31 pm

    Two adult men with huge amounts of followers talking about their expression of girlhood.

    https://www.tiktok.com/@dylanmulvaney/video/7103679534020742446?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=6910238550492448258

    Support for those with gender dysphoria distress, has morphed into non-scrutiny of other aspects of queer theory.

    There would rightly be criticism of two grown women acting this way, but this display and similar are promoted and celebrated.

    • weka 11.1
      2 June 2022 at 9:29 pm

      the idea that men can be feminine is to be supported. But what those two are doing is colonisation. Jeffrey wants girls to transcend their sex, this is misogyny. If you are NB, you can't be girl. Be feminine (adopt expressions not traditionally allowed for men), but don't co-opt girlhood.

      And at the very least, grow the fuck up and stop blurring the line between children, adults and sexuality. That's me giving them the benefit of the doubt.

      There will of course be people who think this is prudish, or transphobic, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt too that they don't know about the history of PIE, or men with their sexual fetishes on display in the kids tent at Pride, or naked with the child drag queens, or the push for acceptance of non-practicing pedophiles and so on. All this is happening openly and publicly and the left is see no evil monkey going lalala. Oh yeah, and rainbow dildo butt monkey.

      https://twitter.com/varindeus/status/1532275914284965888

      • weka 11.1.1
        2 June 2022 at 9:30 pm

        Trans people should also be standing up and saying no fucking way are we associating ourselves with this.

        • Molly 11.1.1.1
          3 June 2022 at 10:00 am

          The blurring of multiple lines, due to the unquestioning acceptance of Queer Theory is leading to multiple safeguarding and unconsented involvement in sexual acts, such as exhibitionism, indecent exposure and humiliation fetishes.

          Pride events, originally intended to show that homosexuality was a sexual orientation, not a sexual behaviour, in some countries, has morphed into a bizarre display of adult sexual fetishes and exhibitionism that many gays and lesbians want no part of.

          Public invitations are issued to families to bring kids to let them learn about diversity. Wider public funding often supports such events.

          The tweet below is a breaking of child safeguarding principles at a Pride parade.

          Upthread, is another unverified origin dogging fetish image. Didn't want to post it directly on TS. You'll understand why if you view. It looks to be in a public space, and a more extreme version of the one with the small girl.

          The major child safeguarding breach has already happened though in the first picture. From then on it's a question of degrees. The introduction, familiarisation and normalisation of adult sexual behaviours and fetishes for that child has already taken place..

          NZ is not here, thank goodness, but neither was the UK at one point.

          https://twitter.com/tcbtttc/status/1532441519105490955

          • weka 11.1.1.1.1
            3 June 2022 at 10:23 am

            completely agree. How did we get to the point of dropping safeguarding? Is it because most people don't know what it is?

            Fatherly is in the US, their own unique brand of crazy.

            (I addressed the tail image on twitter, because I don't think that is at Pride, but it could easily have been).

            • Molly 11.1.1.1.1.1
              3 June 2022 at 11:04 am

              Yes, I couldn't find the source so wanted to be clear it was not attributed to a Pride event.

              However, the line between the image above and that one – to me – is fairly thin.

              Appropriate boundaries have already been breached.

              • weka …
                3 June 2022 at 11:25 am

                same.

                The other issue here is that when one performs one's kink in public, it can be a sexual act without consent from the people nearby. This is another line being crossed and eroded without any political or social scrutiny (apart from GC people online). This matters for obvious consent reasons (and we're still not good at that) and also because if you take the kids out of the picture there are still issues for adults and this erosion in the name of sex positivity then also plays into child safeguarding.

                We're a long way from the privacy of one's bedroom concepts.

            • Molly 11.1.1.1.1.2
              3 June 2022 at 11:19 am

              That Fatherly article is full of red flags…

              I despise this promotion of the most egregious parts of Queer Theory to kids, under the rainbow umbrella.

              • Anker …
                3 June 2022 at 11:52 am

                Thanks again Weka and Molly for posting.

                I am wondering what it will take for some progressives to wake up

  12. Molly 12
    2 June 2022 at 5:05 pm

    Unfortunate but not unforseeable result:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/128838319/police-tracking-climate-activists-after-tampering-with-car-causing-near-miss

    "

    The driver had returned to their vehicle on Willis St on Tuesday evening to find a flyer on the windscreen saying “your gas guzzler kills”.

    The flyer said the tyres had been deflated, but a check of the vehicle didn’t reveal any apparent damage.

    However, the driver nearly crashed just past the Porirua off ramp, on Transmission Gully, when one of their tyres deflated.

    A source involved in the investigation said a stone, or piece of gravel, was screwed into the valve cap, causing a slow deflation of the tyre.

    It follows directions given by the global Tyre Extinguishers group…

    Activism that targets and attempts attempts to shame random individuals is a self-indulgent performatice farce. (And wilfully malicious and dangerous.)

    The hard work is getting the public on side when demanding institutional and regulatory reform, These 'acts' will not help.

    • Belladonna 12.1
      2 June 2022 at 5:35 pm

      Heavens! This could so easily have resulted in a death – either the people in the vehicle or some other random member of the public – in another vehicle or a cyclist/pedestrian.

      If caught, I'd hope to see them prosecuted severely – attempted manslaughter, perhaps. A deliberate action, taken with the foreknowledge that severe harm could result. The 'gravel-in-the-valve-cap' action can only be seen as a deliberate attempt to have a tyre deflate while driving – massively increasing the risk to the people in the vehicle and everyone around it.

      This is an entirely 'forseeable' result from their illegal action. Illegal, because they don't own the car and are tampering with the safe operation of it.

      I think that there was something similar a few years ago – with 1080 protestors loosening the nuts on the wheels of DOC worker cars, which was referred to the police, but I don't know the outcome.

      Profoundly stupid action.

    • KJT 12.2
      2 June 2022 at 5:38 pm

      Annoying that silly acts like these are giving anti AGW activists a bad name.

      Things like that just piss people off.

      I cheered the people chaining themselves to exploration rigs. I'm not going to cheer for those letting tyres down.

      • Belladonna 12.2.1
        2 June 2022 at 5:49 pm

        Not just silly, criminally dangerous.

        Silly is letting down tyres. Criminally dangerous is jamming gravel in the valve, so the tyre only deflates while being driven.

        Also cowardly. Protestors chaining themselves to drilling rigs or gluing themselves to roads (XR in Britain) have the courage of their convictions – they're prepared to be arrested, tried and even sentenced for their actions. These cowards can't even sign their own threats.

    • Robert Guyton 12.3
      2 June 2022 at 5:47 pm

      Unintended consequences. This why all protest action needs wise counsel.

      • Belladonna 12.3.1
        2 June 2022 at 5:51 pm

        What was 'unintended' about the consequences? They clearly (through their actions) wanted the tyre to deflate while the car was being driven. Nothing unintended about that.

        • Robert Guyton 12.3.1.1
          2 June 2022 at 6:22 pm

          How do you know this, Belladonna?

          Have you experience with gravel and valves? Are you party to the groups planning?

          I expect not, yet you confidently declare an understanding of their motives.

          • Belladonna 12.3.1.1.1
            2 June 2022 at 6:33 pm

            Nope. Criminal stupidity isn't in my CV.

            Can you suggest any alternative motive that they might have had?

            Or are you just proposing that they are so stupid, that they can't foresee the obvious consequences of their actions.

        • Robert Guyton 12.3.1.2
          2 June 2022 at 6:27 pm

          Consider this: a "tyre extinguisher" inserts gravel into a valve so that they can scarper while the noisy deflation takes place. They do not imagine for a moment that the tire might deflate at a later date. They are horrified by the outcome.

          I'm only speculating, as you are, but can you show that your theory is more valid than mine?

          • Belladonna 12.3.1.2.1
            2 June 2022 at 6:36 pm

            OK. I can buy your possible scenario. Though the sound of escaping air isn't particularly loud (as anyone who's actually pumped up a tyre knows).
            [Not that I think it’s likely – and it makes them out to be fairly stupid, in the best of lights.]

            If they are actually horrified at the outcome. I confidently look forward to them handing themselves in at the local police station, and owning their actions.

            Oooh, Look. Flying pigs…..

            • Puckish Rogue 12.3.1.2.1.1
              2 June 2022 at 6:51 pm

              Don't hold your breath

            • Robert Guyton 12.3.1.2.1.2
              2 June 2022 at 9:38 pm

              Here's the clue you need to solve the question, Belladonna (from Molly's comment)

              "A source involved in the investigation said a stone, or piece of gravel, was screwed into the valve cap, causing a slow deflation of the tyre.

              It follows directions given by the global Tyre Extinguishers group…"

              Those directions will reveal whether the group meant serious harm by their actions. All else is prejudiced "reckons", my own included 🙂

              • weka …
                2 June 2022 at 10:00 pm

                I don't believe that they wanted the car to be driven while it was still deflating. But they do appear to have been negligent on this. There's the idea that the NZ flier told the driver it was dangerous to drive, but I haven't seen evidence of that. Had a look at the UK version and it says nothing of the sort.

              • Molly …
                2 June 2022 at 10:56 pm

                https://www.tyreextinguishers.com/how-to-deflate-an-suv-tyre

                The action was immature, had no clear intent other than shaming or inconveniencing random individuals, and potentially harmful.

                It doesn't need excusing. Those activists need redirecting.

                • weka …
                  2 June 2022 at 11:17 pm
                  • Avoid: Cars clearly used for people with disabilities, traders’ cars (even if they’re large), minibuses and normal-sized cars.

                  How will they know?

                • Robert Guyton …
                  3 June 2022 at 10:08 am

                  From the Tyre Extinguisher's pamphlet (thanks, Molly).

                  "The whole process should take about 10 seconds."

                  I am not condoning their behaviour, just clarifying their intentions/expectations around the use of gravel (or lentils 🙂

                  Any protest action could have serious outcomes; a driver, distracted by the placard a protester is holding aloft, could crash. A person with a heart-condition, apoplectic with rage could suffer cardiac arrest at the sight of children marching against climate change, etc.

                  Messing with tyres though, has proved more serious than (I bet) the Tyre Extinguishers first thought.

                  • weka …
                    3 June 2022 at 10:46 am

                    a woman needing to take her sick child to the doctor suddenly, in the rain in the middle of winter, goes out and finds the tyres deflated on her car. TE believe that "you will have no difficulty getting around without your gas guzzler, with walking, cycling or public transport".

                    The whole strategy looks flawed from the start. I'm guessing young men (and probably some older ones) who didn't run this past the Aunties first.

                    • Belladonna …
                      3 June 2022 at 6:19 pm

                      Sadly, this escalation into 'extreme, violent and utterly stupid' actions by protestors, is likely to be met by equally escalating responses from their victims.

                      Look at the responses to this XR youtube video (designed to protest their activists being assaulted).

                      Massive support for the security guys (regardless of the potential injury to the XR protester), very little for the protestor.

                    • weka …
                      3 June 2022 at 8:25 pm

                      that's a different issue imo. The TE action is problematic in who it targets and how it does it.

                      The HS2 protest is pretty standard blockade (looking at that video) and the security guards are clearly assaulting them. You're always going to get people who don't support the protest being angry about it, but business are legit protest targets. We desperately need a lot of such protests to wake people up. They're non-violent.

                      The security guards aren't victims, nor are businesses. In some cases we can argue that workers are, but if they're still being paid and keeping their jobs that's a harder argument.

                      Public perception is a big part of whether protests work or not, but negative reactions aren't inherently bad. I don't know enough about the HS2 protests to have a sense of how they are going. I don't think stopping those kinds of actions is warranted though.

            • left for dead 12.3.1.2.1.3
              3 June 2022 at 9:44 am

              More Pub memes.the sound of escaping air can be quiet loud and violent.

              but do agree stupid and criminal.

      • Molly 12.3.2
        2 June 2022 at 10:52 pm

        That's a poor excuse.

        The target for the action was poorly chosen.

        The impact of the action was either to shame or aggravate the very members of the public they should be persuaded to aid in political, regulatory or institutional change.

        The dangerous consequences of interfering with a motor vehicles ability to travel safely were apparent.