Open mike 03/12/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 3rd, 2021 - 225 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

225 comments on “Open mike 03/12/2021 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    3 December 2021 at 6:18 am

    The new United States ambassador to Aotearoa is an indigenous rights supporter.

    Udall has said some of his "proudest achievements" came through working working with Native American tribal leaders in his state, including progressing tribal self-governance, native language revitalisation and protecting sacred areas.

    He was also instrumental in helping secure $8 billion in funding for tribal governments in their Covid-19 responses. Upon stepping down from his post, Navajo Nation President Jonathan Nez said Udall had been an "advocate and champion for the Navajo people".

    Asked what he'd learned during his work with tribes, he said the importance of sovereignty. "The first thing is, is the indigenous people of New Mexico, the Native Americans really care about the fact that they are nations within the nation, and they care about their sovereignty."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/new-us-ambassador-to-new-zealand-tom-udall-on-maori-culture-climate-change-china-and-trade/DZ3TLYOPMXRDOSG3FZIHQ4ZKJU/

    • Gezza 1.1
      3 December 2021 at 7:59 am

      The first thing is, is the indigenous people of New Mexico

      Oh dear. Udall is another American double-izzer. There's a growing group of yanks that double the "is" in sentences for no sensible reason. The thing is, is that… The point is, is that… What it is, is that…

      This bizarre form of phrasing is spreading like a disease from the US tv channels all around the world. Some TV1 reporters & commentators & presenters have even picked it up & started using it. As have others. Judith Collins was a frequent double-izzer.

      Where will it end? 😳 😀

      • Blazer 1.1.1
        3 December 2021 at 8:21 am

        Oh no!…Grammar Nazis will never get to sleep at…night.

        This is…a crisis.crying

        • Gezza 1.1.1.1
          3 December 2021 at 8:30 am

          Says … Mr Ellipsis.

          1. I’m not a Nazi.
          2. I find it amusing (not a worry) when people mangle English & it becomes a “thing” that others just copy & repeat, unthinkingly.
          3. In particular I find it funny that at the same time as TV presenters arecdoing their best to get the pronunciation & grammar right when using Te Reo Māori, they happily abandon correct English grammar & syntax & spout such nonsense.
          4. I’m sleeping better now than I have for years, oddly, given my recent diagnosis.
          • Pete 1.1.1.1.1
            3 December 2021 at 10:15 am

            People have always used, abused and mangled English since the start of whenever.

            That "becomes a “thing” that others just copy & repeat, unthinkingly" and it becomes part of the evolving the language.

            • Gezza 1.1.1.1.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 10:34 am

              Are you a user & an advocate of the “double is” usage then?

              Why? It actually makes no sense.

              I wonder if teachers of English teach that it’s a grammatically valid use of “is”.

              English is an evolving language, sure, one only has to look at early writings & spellings from Shakespeare to see how much it has evolved, but some things like this are not so much evolving the language as advertising the user’s laziness or ignorance, imo.

              • Bryan Dods …
                3 December 2021 at 12:28 pm

                The thing is, is that the Americans have to get rid of "off of" first.

                • Shanreagh …
                  3 December 2021 at 2:35 pm

                  Yes then they could start on 'ahold of' instead of 'hold of'. Was it Winston Churchill/George Bernard Shaw who coined the apt saying of US & English- English

                  'Two great nations divided by a a common language.' smiley

                  • Gezza …
                    3 December 2021 at 5:14 pm

                    They need to first eliminate double negatives, imo, because these often logically lead to an absurd positive. Classic example we’ve all heard.

                    Mant individuals who are stony broke in the US will often say:
                    “I ain’t got no money.”

                    Broken down, “ain’t” means haven’t, so the individual is saying:
                    “I haven’t got no money”.

                    If you haven’t got ‘no money’, logic says you must have ‘some money’. But they don’t.

                    They should probably say: “I ain’t got ANY money” but the double negative phrase “ain’t got no” has now been so deeply embedded into American English-speakers’ minds (via movies & tv and music & literature) it’s illogicality is simply ignored & people just interpret it (by context) to mean that the individual is broke.

                    The thing the plonkers who go on about Grammar Nazis & Spelling Nazis when errors in English are amusedly pointed out forget is that ALL languages have syntax & rules of spelling & postioning & placement etc becos without such forms of common control & usage every language would quickly become unintelligible to others if there weren’t some common agreed rules.

        • woodart 1.1.1.2
          3 December 2021 at 11:03 am

          grandma nazis are a pain, neelee as bad as spelleng nazis.

      • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1.1.2
        3 December 2021 at 11:52 am

        Gezza just demonstrated how to derail a thread!

        • Gezza 1.1.2.1
          3 December 2021 at 12:31 pm

          It's just an aside – a side issue I picked up because the writer actually reported the double is. Often they don't.

          You seemingly haven't noticed how the thread continues below for anyone that wants to comment on it. Have you anything to say on the thread yourself? Or just that?

    • Robert Guyton 1.2
      3 December 2021 at 8:32 am

      "…progressing tribal self-governance, native language revitalisation and protecting sacred areas…."

      Somebody give him a copy of He Puapua to take back home when he goes.

      He'll also enjoy browsing Te Tiriti o Waitangi documents and commentaries and might have some valuable perspectives to offer around those.

      He sounds like a worthwhile person to have visit Aotearoa 🙂

  2. observer 2
    3 December 2021 at 6:24 am

    The umpteenth case of prominent media person in the USA campaigning against getting vaccinated, then getting Covid and … you can guess what happened:

    https://www.npr.org/2021/12/01/1060699340/marcus-lamb-daystar-television-network-dies-covid

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    3 December 2021 at 6:34 am

    Strangely, I'd never realised our bureaucrats can't tell the difference between orange and yellow. Toby Manhire noticed: https://thespinoff.co.nz/covid-19/02-12-2021/excuse-me-what-colour-is-this

    I went to the office of the New Zealand prime minister. She, after all, had got this one right – the colour in the Covid response traffic light framework is clear, unambiguous and true: orange. After a delay of some days – were they hiding something? – they came back and confirmed they didn’t focus group the colours. They didn’t do market research.

    It was clear they hadn’t consulted sections 3.2 and 3.4 of the Road User Rule or AS/NZS2144:2002 or the South Australian Driver’s Handbook. They’ve got a pandemic to tackle. What they’d done instead is look at traffic lights, noticed that the middle one was orange and written down “Orange”.

    I leave the final word to my colleague Natalie, probably the sharpest knife in the office; a person who calls a spade a spade, bullshit bullshit and something that is orange orange. “You’re either an amber gambler or running a late orange,” she said, in response to other colleagues who had shared wrong opinions in our work Slack. “There is no yellow. If there was, Cobb & Co would use pineapple instead of orange juice. End of.”

    • Hanswurst 3.1
      3 December 2021 at 9:07 am

      I recall reading an article in the Christchurch Press about twenty-five years ago or so, reporting how a chap had been pulled over by the police and fined for running an 'orange' light recklessly close, only to contest the charge successfully on the grounds that there was no such thing as an 'orange' traffic light.

      • Gezza 3.1.1
        3 December 2021 at 9:13 am

        I haven’t read the article but isn’t in Amber light?

        • Gezza 3.1.1.1
          3 December 2021 at 9:15 am

          Bugger. 😠 Let me start again.

          I haven’t read the article but isn’t it an Amber light

          • Hanswurst 3.1.1.1.1
            3 December 2021 at 9:28 am

            The article I read all those years ago did state that the intermediate stage between green and red was 'yellow' or 'amber', but the only official references I've ever seen are to its being yellow.

            • mac1 3.1.1.1.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 9:58 am

              Frank Nordern and Dennis Muir say 'amber'. Peter Sellers did their script "Balham Gateway to the South", a brilliant spoof of a travel documentary.

              "Night falls on Balham. Beneath Quill's Folly, Balham's famous beauty spot, which stands nearly ten feet above sea level, the town is spread below us in a fairyland of glittering lights, changing all the time- green, amber, red and amber and back to green."

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    3 December 2021 at 7:49 am

    A long-overdue regeneration of coastal shipping seems to be in the pipeline:

    The amount of domestic freight moved by sea rather than road or rail could double in the future if a new coastal shipping network is set up.

    That's one of the key conclusions of a new report on how Waka Kotahi should invest more than $30 million in funding that had been earmarked for coastal shipping in the latest National Land Transport Programme.

    The report, commissioned by the transport agency and written by shipping consultants Pacific Marine Management, also finds a new feeder network oriented around hubs in Auckland and Tauranga could improve the resilience of New Zealand's supply chains.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/blue-highway-govt-moots-25-40m-coastal-shipping-network

    • Ad 4.1
      3 December 2021 at 8:42 am

      If Sealord's are that keen they should be able to buy their own freight ship. They're just hanging out for needless state subsidy into an imagined service that is never going to come back.

      Kiwirail are a never-ending suck-hole of money for marginal network improvements on a shrinking network. Hard to see the Nightcaps or West Coast lines surviving once Fonterra converts to woodwaste boilers.

      Minister Wood will consult by pushing that report straight back on the shelf.

    • kejo 4.2
      3 December 2021 at 9:06 am

      Only double ? Thats not nearly enough !

  5. Blazer 5
    3 December 2021 at 8:24 am

    So under Fyfes leadership the popular Mardi Gras flights went ahead.

    As soon as Christopher took over ,they were cancelled,and when he left they were reinstated.

    Clearly nothing to do with…him!

    Air NZ's support for rainbow community reached new heights under Christopher Luxon's watch | Stuff.co.nz

    • Robert Guyton 5.1
      3 December 2021 at 8:47 am

      Luxon's "Upper Room" involvement suggests he's not an admirer of rainbows, imo.

      His spokesman (in the link Blazer supplied) says otherwise.

      • Blazer 5.1.1
        3 December 2021 at 8:59 am

        Christophers PR team…'neutralise this quicksmart…find someone gay at Air to quote and soften this up'.

        'executive decisions' are made by executives when they have a positive perception and by 'junior staffers',people who have left or FIIK….if negative.

        • Robert Guyton 5.1.1.1
          3 December 2021 at 9:07 am

          My feeling also. The fact that the "pink flights" cancellation coincided with Luxon's tenure is neither here

          nor

          there…

      • Gezza 5.1.2
        3 December 2021 at 9:05 am

        The article strongly suggests Luxon is a supporter of LGBTQI initiatives & has no issues with the “rainbow community”.

        There are many Christians who don’t have a problem with LGBTQIs, and as as those who do are seemingly in the minority in both the community & Parliament they are unlikely to cause any problems for them politically as they’ll be outvoted.

        That won’t stop some folk who really like to hate on National & other things from stirring the pot & suggesting dark things with no supporting evidence about Luxon.

        • Blazer 5.1.2.1
          3 December 2021 at 9:39 am

          evidence-1+1=2

          'So under Fyfes leadership the popular Mardi Gras flights went ahead.

          As soon as Christopher took over ,they were cancelled,and when he left they were reinstated.'

          You can refute this with evidence as to WHY these flights, that were always booked out were cancelled ,specifically in Christophers time at Air.

          • Gezza 5.1.2.1.1
            3 December 2021 at 10:27 am

            ANALYSIS: Shortly after Christopher Luxon was elected leader of the Opposition a rumour that had been swirling for years resurfaced on social media.

            The rumour goes: During Luxon’s time in charge at Air New Zealand he axed the popular Mardi Gras “pink flights” because it didn’t align with his Christian views. Much has been said about Luxon’s Christian faith, but he says it has been “misrepresented and portrayed very negatively”.

            The pink flights rumour is case in point because, in reality, Air New Zealand made huge progress to promote diversity and support transgender and gay staff under Luxon’s leadership.
            … … …
            A spokesman for Luxon said he did not make any decisions to end the Mardi Gras flights. Luxon was a big supporter of the LGBTQI community, he said.

            “Christopher is very proud of Air New Zealand’s record during his time of supporting greater diversity in general and the rainbow community specifically,” the spokesman said.

            An unnamed source with knowledge of the situation said the decision to stop the pink flights was an operational one, and such a decision would not have gone all the way to the chief executive.

            Craig Featherby, head of the Flight Attendants Association, said he had not heard anything to suggest Luxon made an executive decision to axe the flights.

            Featherby, who is gay, worked as a Boeing 787-9 in-flight service manager while Luxon was chief executive. Featherby said the handful of times he met Luxon at Air New Zealand he always came across as accepting of all people. “I certainly never felt uncomfortable under his reign,” Featherby said.

            Feathery said Air New Zealand underwent a lot of operational change during Luxon’s time leading the airline, and flight cancellations were exacerbated by the Rolls-Royce engine issues on the airline’s 787-9 Dreamliner over several years.
            … … … …

            The rest of the article basically just continues on demolishing your grubby rumour-generated conspiracy theory.

            1+1 = 2, sure, but correlation does not equal causation, & your “evidence” would be laughed out of a Court. You’ve got nothing proving Luxon instructed those flights should cease because he has a religion-based problem with LGBTQI folk & a mountain of evidence he was a supporter of Air NZ’s positive LGBTQI policies.

            • Blazer 5.1.2.1.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 10:30 am

              All you have done is repost the content of my original link.

              You have not been able to overcome the circumstantial evidence with a plausible explanation of WHY the flights were cancelled…have you?

              • Gezza …
                3 December 2021 at 10:42 am
                1. There’s no need. You haven’t proven a plausible case.
                2. Within that article are “operational decisions are not within the purview of the CEO” and references to engine problems curtailing some flights. All you’ve got is a runoured conspiracy theory with no direct evidence linking the cancellation of those flights to any decision by Luxon to cancel them.

                I’m ending here. Wasted enuf time on you. You carry on rumour mongering & punching at shadows if you like.

                • Blazer …
                  3 December 2021 at 10:49 am

                  You must be very naive….'

                  'A spokesman for Luxon said he did not make any decisions to end the Mardi Gras'

                  'An unnamed source with knowledge of the situation said the decision to stop the pink flights was an operational one, '

                  'Craig Featherby, head of the Flight Attendants Association, said he had not heard anything to suggest Luxon made an executive decision to axe the flights.'

                  Could not get more unconvincing statements than these.

                  Pure sanitising…spin.

                  Wonder how many LGBT members the Upper Room has!

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    3 December 2021 at 11:20 am

                    "Wonder how many LGBT members the Upper Room has!"

                    My guess, "several" but none willing to declare; won't want to ruin the atmosphere 🙂

                    Evidence, as we know, is not the same thing as proof. You were asked for evidence, Blazer, and you provided that elegantly, imo.

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    3 December 2021 at 11:42 am

                    "An unnamed source with knowledge of the situation said…"

                    Hahahaha!

                    The article fair oozes truthiness!

                • Brigid …
                  3 December 2021 at 11:16 am

                  Gezza, why do you consistently misspell enough?

                  Is it because you don't care about the correct spelling of English words?

                  Or do you genuinely don't know how to spell this word?

                  Could it be you think 'enuf' has now become a 'thing', and therefore is now acceptable.

                  • Gezza …
                    3 December 2021 at 11:25 am

                    I like the word enuf. I’m a bit of a fan of finetic spelling. I sometimes spell though as tho, for the same reason.

                    In fact, I think there’s a lot of merit to the following idea, altho now Britain’a out of the EU, it’s not likely to ever be a starter….

                    EURO-ENGLISH

                    The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU rather than German which was the other possibility.

                    As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty’s Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five year phase-in plan that would be known as “Euro-English”.

                    In the first year, “s” will replace the soft “c”. Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard “c” will be dropped in favour of the “k”. This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have 1 less letter.

                    There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome “ph” will be replaced with “f”. This will make words like “fotograf” 20% shorter.

                    In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be ekspekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.

                    Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent “e”s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away.

                    By the fourth year, pepl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing “th” with “z” and “w” with “v”. During ze fifz year, ze unesesary “o” kan be dropd from vords kontaining “ou” and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

                    After ze fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru! And zen ze world vil be ourz!

                  • Blazer …
                    3 December 2021 at 11:32 am

                    Gezza has an unfortunate tendency for double standards .

                    Name calling,perjoratives are verboten unless he makes them.

                    Same rules for spelling and grammar.

                    He is a nice person however.

                    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …
                      3 December 2021 at 12:00 pm

                      I'm not sure I think concern trolls are nice people.

                    • Gezza …
                      3 December 2021 at 12:20 pm

                      "concern troll noun

                      DEROGATORY•INFORMAL

                      a person who disingenuously expresses concern about an issue with the intention of undermining or derailing genuine discussion.

                      "he is regarded among climate scientists as a concern troll""

                      1. I'm not, nor have I ever been, a concern troll. I'm just a non-politically tribal reader & occasional commenter on a left-leaning blog that discusses political & social issues of the day.

                      2. I'm not motivated by almost pathological hatreds some fortunately few commenters here seem to have for political opponents or their parties. But if you have a go at me, I'm a typical bloke, expect to get a return serve if I think it's worth doing. If you're just blithering crap I might just ignore you.

                      3. Some of the most offensive commenters here employ the disingenuous tactic of criticising you for the same sins they commit, in the hope of deflecting criticism away from their nastiness. Narcissists & psychopaths do that.

                    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …
                      3 December 2021 at 1:52 pm

                      Comprehension 101: nowhere did I name anyone as a concerned troll, I just made a general statement.

                      You may infer I meant you; I couldn't possibly comment.

                    • Gezza …
                      3 December 2021 at 3:40 pm

                      Comprehension 101: nowhere did I name anyone as a concerned troll, I just made a general statement. You may infer I meant you; I couldn’t possibly comment.

                      So transparently disingenuous I’m embarrassed for you over how pathetically inept that attempt at a clever & sophisticated cheap shot was.

                      Why not crawl back under the rock you usually hide under & watch tv or something?

                • Jag …
                  3 December 2021 at 3:24 pm

                  The article states that Luxon was international airline General Manager May 2011 to December 2012 so cancellation of international flights may have been in his purview during that time? also rolls royce engine problems seem to have to occurred in 2017 so maybe a red herring?

                  • Gezza …
                    3 December 2021 at 4:04 pm

                    Look, Jag, don’t get me wrong. I realise that some woebegone, hateful people loathe their political opponents so much that they’ll happily indulge in character assassination on the flimsiest of evidence, especially on blogs or social media.

                    I generally find it best to avoid these types as they’re often miserable, forever moaning buggers to be around, prone to making various allegations & buying into any conspiracies involving their usual targets.

                    My comment below explains why I don’t see any evidence yet that confirms Luxon banned Mardi Gras flights because he’s got it in for LGTBQI folk owing to hiscrekigious beliefs. If, in fact, he does – and he did – that evidence will surface eventually.

                    Until it does, it’s just malicious gossip really. Some people, I realise, really like spreading that. But I’m not one of them.

                    • Gypsy …
                      3 December 2021 at 6:40 pm

                      Unfortunately this is part of the dirt in political life. Clark was subject to it. Mike Williams shot off to Australia to try to dig the dirt on Key. Seriously if being a wealthy, bald, christian male is as bad as it gets, Luxon is going to be dead boring.

                • Gypsy …
                  3 December 2021 at 3:40 pm

                  "You carry on rumour mongering & punching at shadows if you like."
                  There's a bit of that around. Luxon seesm to have excited some on the left. it's quite humorous.

              • Gypsy …
                3 December 2021 at 3:42 pm

                He's reposted it because clearly you didn't read it!

          • Maurice 5.1.2.1.2
            3 December 2021 at 11:05 am

            Surely 1 minus 1 = 0 plus 1 = 1

            Fyfe instituted the flights; Luxon removed them then replaced after he left ….

            • Gezza 5.1.2.1.2.1
              3 December 2021 at 11:18 am

              Where’s the evidence Luxon removed them?

              In an org the size of Air NZ, & with the number of LGBTQI employees it probably has, any decision by Luxon like that would soon get around & piss them off mightily. Once he left I’d expect one or more of aggrieved individuals (not necessarily just LGBTQIs either) to leak details to the msm or publish on social media to hit back at him.

              Hasn’t happened. Why? Because it probably never happened. Time should tell.

              • Blazer …
                3 December 2021 at 3:39 pm

                ' any decision by Luxon like that would soon get around & piss them off mightily.'

                That's what happened….now time for damage control.

                As the CEO ,he has the final say.

                People working there now ,want to stay working there and not upset the directors who usually have very right wing leanings.

              • McFlock …
                3 December 2021 at 4:23 pm

                Time will indeed tell.

                The coincidental timing bodes poorly for him, but isn't overtly conclusive. Nor is his pastor's online content allegedly being trimmed indicative of sermons about which NZers might generally not approve.

                Then there's Luxon saying he'll support safe zones around abortion services, after voting against them on the first reading.

                Things that bode well for Luxon being a more progressive and forgiving christian than one of the conservative, bigoted ones? Not many so far. There are some very inclusive churches around, but there are others that aren't so openminded.

                Which path do Luxon's beliefs travel? As you say, time will tell.

  6. Gezza 6
    3 December 2021 at 8:40 am

    @ Puckish Rogue

    .https://thestandard.org.nz/chris-luxon-is-not-nationals-messiah/#comment-1838559

    If that comment was directed at me, thank you. I can also say that YOU are a commenter I always read because, even though your views are sometimes at odds with the general views of most commenters on this left-leaning blog, you explain & defend your views clearly, you seem honest, & your posts are easy to understand.

    There’s not much ambiguity. You also say what you mean and mean ONLY what you say.

    You are also, in my view, quite sophisticatedly witty on many occasions. I like commenters with a GSOH.

    It speaks volumes that you not only survive here as a regular but that many commenters with who you might sometimes be at odds politically seem to regard you with considerable affection.

    Keep up the good work 😀

  7. Ad 7
    3 December 2021 at 9:17 am

    For those who can cope with a transcribed interview, this is the Lowy Institute interviewing the White House key advisor on the Asia-Pacific region, Kurt Campbell. He's the guy who gave us the 'pivot to Asia', 'the Quad', and AUKUS.

    In Conversation: Kurt Campbell, White House Indo-Pacific Coordinator (lowyinstitute.org)

    The density of the exchange with the Lowy Institute and in how he engages about Australia gives a good and quite detailed sense of how important and how deep that White House-Canberra relationship is and will be.

    • RedLogix 7.1
      3 December 2021 at 10:45 am

      Got to the nub of it here:

      Australia has a deeply significant strategic role play both globally and in the Indo-pacific. It values its partnership in the United States, but does not seek nor act in a way that is simply an adjunct to Washington. That's just so far, from how Australia conducts its independent foreign policy. And I see it every day. And I'm extraordinarily impressed by its dexterity, and its nuance. I fully believe that over time, that China will reengage with Australia. But it will, I believe, re-engage on Australian terms. I think Australia – China's preference would have been too broke, to break Australia. To drive Australia to its knees. And then you know, find a way forward. I don't believe that's going to be the way it's going to play out. I believe that China will engage because it is in its own interest to have a good relationship with Australia. I believe that will happen naturally, and I think that China is a country that deep down, fundamentally respects strength fortitude and resilience. And I can't imagine a country that has demonstrated that more clearly than Australia.

      • McFlock 7.2.1
        3 December 2021 at 4:38 pm

        Might want to update Duterte's positioning. China wasn't the great ally he'd hoped for.

        • Blazer 7.2.1.1
          3 December 2021 at 5:14 pm

          A common policy ,even in the Pacific…play one off against the other.

          And no one from either side would have much confidence in…Duterte.

          It does not alter the original link that he suggested the U.S wanted the Philipines to engage with China.

          • McFlock 7.2.1.1.1
            3 December 2021 at 8:07 pm

            Doesn't alter it, just makes it out of date.

            Duterte wasn't just playing one off against the other, he was looking for a global realignment. He had some pretty good reasons for being as anti-US as he was, but China is encroaching upon his doorstep.

  8. Ad 8
    3 December 2021 at 9:28 am

    Chauncey De Vega does a good job today with some of the consequences for US minorities and Democrats should Republicans gain Senate majority back next year and White House in 2024.

    He quotes historian Ruth Ben-Ghiat, around preparing to leave the country if one is in an oppressed or substantially marginalised US minority:

    If America really surrenders to fascism, then what? Painful questions lie ahead | Salon.com

    "So, one answer would be: start exploring your options now if you are in a threatened category of people, as are many of those who write to me. "Better exile than prison," wrote former Italian Prime Minister Francesco Nitti to King Victor Emmanuel III in 1925, explaining why he'd left Italy when the Fascists took power. Nitti worked from abroad to counter authoritarian propaganda about what was happening in his native country, as exiles from Hong Kong, Myanmar, and other places do today.

    It's unlikely that Republican rule would mean mass imprisonment for political opponents, the way there is in Erdogan's Turkey. Viktor Orbán, darling of the GOP, has not gone that route. And it's a shame to lose capable people when they are most needed at home — which would be the situation in the USA if Republicans gain more power and if they retake the White House in 2024.

    (…)

    Each person acts for their own reasons, and each situation is unique. But there is one constant in the history of exile. It means watching from afar the travails of your country, and, for those who desire to return, entering into a state of suspension: waiting for things to get better, waiting for the tyrant to die, waiting for freedoms to be restored."

    With so many competent-but-uninspiring Democrat leaders retiring and not a great surge of inspiring leaders replacing them, we may well find more exiles seeking somewhere peaceful and competent to live.

    • vto 8.1
      3 December 2021 at 9:55 am

      The US needs a Ghandi, or a Mandela.

      Instead it has a Trump…

      Imagine South Africa at the end of apartheid if it instead had a Trump..

      …

      It is all over bar the shouting in the US.. imo there is no way the fascist genie will go back in the bottle.. it now has to play itself out…

      • RedLogix 8.1.1
        3 December 2021 at 10:18 am

        I'm always impressed at how people are so ready to yell 'fascist' at the USA, while remaining silent on the actually fascist regimes around the world.

        • Robert Guyton 8.1.1.1
          3 December 2021 at 10:29 am

          I think people are yelling F****d, rather than F*****t.

        • Blazer 8.1.1.2
          3 December 2021 at 10:36 am

          Uncle Sams staunchest defender with a deflection.

          Heres one for you…I'm always unimpressed by how quick the U.S is to label people terrorists,or insurgents or 'bad' people ,when the record shows they are the guiltiest of all those charges.

          • RedLogix 8.1.1.2.1
            3 December 2021 at 10:48 am

            Absolutely – the US has made all manner of stupid mistakes that it rightly deserves to be heavily criticised for. But the difference is this – you are able to say these things without too much fear of censorship, or being disappeared.

            • Blazer 8.1.1.2.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 10:51 am

              Good point…

              Assange and Snowden really have nothing to…fear!blush

              • RedLogix …
                3 December 2021 at 10:55 am

                And I will stand on my long record here both defending Assange and Snowden – and deploring the US govt's extremely bad faith actions in these cases.

                • Blazer …
                  3 December 2021 at 11:00 am

                  'But the difference is this – you are able to say these things without too much fear of censorship, or being disappeared.'

                  So you concede there is in fact….no difference.Very good.

                  • RedLogix …
                    3 December 2021 at 11:07 am

                    And yet here you are still speaking freely. Amazing.

                    • garibaldi …
                      3 December 2021 at 12:14 pm

                      Many people who speak freely in the USA rapidly die from car accidents or jumping out of windows etc etc, especially in the run up to court cases. Move on, nothing to see here. God bless America. Yeah ,right.

                    • Brigid …
                      3 December 2021 at 12:28 pm

                      I'm sure members of the 200 or so countries the US has invaded, destroyed, rendered a 'failed state' are pleased you have rights that the US took from them.

                      Incidentally, the US has not made 'stupid mistakes'. Ever action it took against every country it sought to punish was a carefully considered and well thought out plan to destroy, to bring to its knees.

                      How many countries can you list where the CIA has murdered the incumbent democratically elected head of state or has overthrown the existing government and replaced it with their sycophant regime.

                    • RedLogix …
                      3 December 2021 at 1:14 pm

                      @Brigid

                      Yet despite the hated US invading, occupying, crushing and colonising more that every single nation on earth there is the peculiar fact that in 2021 the average person is far less likely to die in war than at any time in human history.

                      Weird.

        • weka 8.1.1.3
          3 December 2021 at 11:38 am

          Which countries did you have in mind?

          US going full fascist has massive implications for other countries, humanity and basically all of life. More so than say Brazil going full fascist. Athough obviously that would be bad for Brazilians and the region, it's not like they have nuclear weapons, an army the size of the US, or the kind of economic and political influence that the US has. Even allowing for the impact of the destruction of Brazil's forests (which they're already doing).

          • RedLogix 8.1.1.3.1
            3 December 2021 at 11:47 am

            You know the list of countries as well as I do. But let me offer one name – Peng Shuai.

            • Brigid 8.1.1.3.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 2:18 pm

              Oh please don't tell me you've swallowed the Peng Shuai cool aid.

              Please don't let your sinophobia rot your brain any more with this latest laughable propaganda.

              • RedLogix …
                3 December 2021 at 2:29 pm

                Straight under the bus.

                If it's all propaganda the CCP has but to restore her original post to the internet. and let her speak freely and openly in a trusted setting to Western journalists.

              • francesca …
                3 December 2021 at 2:37 pm

                The actual transcript does seem to describe some degree of coercion, (verbal?) who knows it's actually hard to gauge, in the end it's consensual

                "I agreed"

                I regret to say after some endless badgering I've agreed to have sex at times just to get it over with ,I think it's not that uncommon

                Romantic attraction is such a complicated thing that explain it clearly. From that day on, I renewed my love for you.

                .More than than anything it's a sad complaint that the man doesn't want to see her anymore and denies the relationship

                https://www.reddit.com/r/tennis/comments/qmn69a/full_translation_of_peng_shuais_weibo_post/

                After dinner, I was still not willing to have sex. You said you hated me. You said in those seven years, you never forgot about me, and you will treat me well etc… I was terrified and anxious. Taking into consideration the affection I had for you seven years ago, I agreed… yes, we had sex.

                She talked for 30 minutes with the IOC, who were satisfied she was ok, not being held captive or coerced.

                I'm afraid it's now beyond whether Shuai is well and freely living her life, China's adversaries will not be cheated of an opportunity to rob them of the Games

                • RedLogix …
                  3 December 2021 at 2:43 pm

                  In the West it would be immediately called out as a 'power imbalance'. And the fact of her post being scrubbed from the local internet is really all we need to know here. Not to mention her prolonged absence that triggered real concern.

                  Oh and we have a contact here in Brisbane who knows Shuai personally. So there's that as well.

                  • francesca …
                    3 December 2021 at 2:58 pm

                    Red, I haven't got a clue what actually happened here.

                    But neither am I willing to participate in an all out assault on China every time someone writes something on social media.

                    I feel sorry for Shuai, an absolute storm has broken loose, she may have endangered her beloved sport in her own country, she's been the conduit for a lot of very fierce threats to cancel the Beijing games.

                    She is now probably under so much pressure from both sides, it's intolerable, and the western media and sports organisations are intensifying it all. Who wouldn't go to ground?And she needs those western tennis associations to continue her career.A great little wedge has been leveraged.

                    Anyway, maybe you'll be assuaged by the third conversation the IOC has with her, in person next month .

                    • RedLogix …
                      3 December 2021 at 3:13 pm

                      Yes from what I've been told Shuai will be feeling extremely vulnerable from all sides at the moment. Anything she says now will be couched in the most careful terms.

                      Of course now she has become a symbol for a much larger story about the PRC and it's routine disregard for what you and I take for granted as human rights. She didn't intend this – but this is one of the downsides of being so very well known. (Yes I had heard of her prior.)

                • francesca …
                  3 December 2021 at 2:48 pm

                  sorry ,I've bungled that ,didn't mean to subject anyone to so much text

                  • RedLogix …
                    3 December 2021 at 2:51 pm

                    No problem from me – I was aware that this was not a simple matter and the open text of the post in question clarifies matters.

                  • Blazer …
                    3 December 2021 at 4:19 pm

                    That translation seems to suggest the classic woman scorned scenario.

                    Almost a Monica Lewinsky situation.

                    Powerful,rich,famous men can do anything, even grab their 'pussy',according to ex leader of the free world-D.Trump.

            • francesca 8.1.1.3.1.2
              3 December 2021 at 2:18 pm

              And in Tara Reade's case (she was the wrong kind of victim who had the misfortune to have been assaulted by a Democrat candidate) the victim was torn apart by the press.

              In a time of me too believe the woman,Tara's reputation was trashed by the very same media affecting deep concern for Peng Shuai and demanding investigation .It's the hypocrisy, partisanship,and crude politicisation of these awful events in women's lives I can't stand .It's yet another cynical abuse of women for political purposes.They don't give a flying fuck when it comes down to it, just another opportunity to land some blows.

              Every single Olympics being held in an adversary country has been hounded .The rooms aren't ready, its a total fuckup, the toilets don't work, human rights dictate that we have a boycott, Zika virus is running amok, don't go, there'll be riots, you won't be safe.Now its you tennis girls will be molested, we'll have to cancel

              So, so predictable

              • RedLogix …
                3 December 2021 at 2:36 pm

                Yes. I completely agree with you here – the political weaponisation of 'always believe the women' was both predictable and deplorable.

                And once turned into a weapon it was always going to be selectively used to suit the agenda – as you rightly say in the Tara Reade case.

          • Poission 8.1.1.3.2
            3 December 2021 at 11:55 am

            Which countries did you have in mind?

            John Ralston Saul suggested all are corporate fascist.

            “Now listen to the first three aims of the corporatist movement in Germany, Italy and France during the 1920s. These were developed by the people who went on to become part of the Fascist experience:
            (1) shift power directly to economic and social interest groups;
            (2) push entrepreneurial initiative in areas normally reserved for public bodies;
            (3) obliterate the boundaries between public and private interest — that is, challenge the idea of the public interest.
            This sounds like the official program of most contemporary Western governments.”

        • vto 8.1.1.4
          3 December 2021 at 1:43 pm

          Red "I'm always impressed at how people are so ready to yell 'fascist' at the USA, while remaining silent on the actually fascist regimes around the world."

          Yeah nah Red, you're out of line in demanding that I comment on all other fascist regimes around the world at the same time as commenting on US fascism. Where on earth do you get that from?

          • RedLogix 8.1.1.4.1
            3 December 2021 at 1:47 pm

            Listening to some regulars here you'd imagine the USA is the sole source of all evil in the world.

            • vto 8.1.1.4.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 2:06 pm

              Yes, well maybe.. tho I suspect that is more a result of the view angle from behind your own eyes than anything else ..

              And you went and derailed my whole comment by bringing in something that wasn't even in there… jeez…

              My comment was around how things might play out if the US instead had a Mandela rather than a Trump. Or how South Africa at the end of apartheid might have gone with a Trump rather than a Mandela. And about genies and bottles, though I have never some across one of those myself…

              • RedLogix …
                3 December 2021 at 2:14 pm

                My comment was around how things might play out if the US instead had a Mandela rather than a Trump. Or how South Africa at the end of apartheid might have gone with a Trump rather than a Mandela.

                Interesting counterfactual. The only way I can think to approach an answer is this – if you were an educated black person and given a choice to live in either SA or the USA in 2021 – which would you pick?

                • vto …
                  3 December 2021 at 9:40 pm

                  Mandela

                  • Gezza …
                    3 December 2021 at 9:57 pm

                    🤔 Whereabouts is there a country named Mandela? 😳

                    • vto …
                      3 December 2021 at 10:14 pm

                      yes well you see that has been the problem the whole way through this mini-thread…. i talk about something (people – trump, mandela) and red talks about something else (countries)…

                      so i answered in the context of what i was talking about (people), not red (countries)…

                      and which would you go for gezza..? trump ? or mandela ?

                      does highlight such importance it does

                    • RedLogix …
                      3 December 2021 at 10:22 pm

                      If it was just a straight choice of 'who would you prefer as a leader' Trump or Mandela the answer scarcely needs typing out – Mandela. But this is pretty meaningless, because in no real world election was anyone ever going to have that choice.

                      Instead Americans got a choice between Trump and Clinton – and a majority picked Trump. Hell it's odds on they may pick him a second time.

                    • vto …
                      3 December 2021 at 10:50 pm

                      It might be meaningless in the context you have put my question into but that isn't my intended context

                      Thinking through the question (which is ‘how would it have turned out’ not ‘who would you choose’) should highlight the importance of the person in charge to how a nation progresses through difficult times. (the question of how they got there is immaterial to this)

                      Upon completion of said ponderance thought can then turn to the consequences of having such leader (because how they got there is in fact immaterial at this important point).

                    • RedLogix …
                      3 December 2021 at 11:36 pm

                      Upon completion of said ponderance thought can then turn to the consequences of having such leader

                      Well yes – what were the consequences? And my answer attempted just that and asked which nation would you prefer to live in?

                      The obvious objection is of course that SA and the USA are very different places – but if leadership matters at all we might conclude that while Mandela was probably the best SA could hope for at that moment, the outcome in the long term is not very promising. And while the USA could certainly have hoped for better than Trump, he wasn't the unmitigated disaster many here would like to paint him as.

                      And if the answer to a choice between Mandela and Trump is obvious, the answer to a choice between living in SA and the USA is also plain.

    • RedLogix 8.2
      3 December 2021 at 10:32 am

      What's not mentioned in this pearl clutcher is that the Democrats are on track to not only lose the up coming Senate elections, but the next Presidency as well. Never mind a 'rigged election system' – they simply cannot win on their current polling.

      And this article reads as pre-positioning 'a stolen election' narrative all over again. Getting tedious.

      • roblogic 8.2.1
        3 December 2021 at 10:39 am

        Trump is right, the system is rigged. But not in the way that he claimed. Red and Blue teams are just distractions while Wall St pillages the public purse.

      • Ad 8.2.2
        3 December 2021 at 11:15 am

        Yes Mr De Vega is getting in the catastrophising early, and agree it's parallel to the Republican catastrophising.

        The uncommitted in either MSM viewers or Party affiliation are however very, very small so the drive to extremes is pretty apparent.

        I like Biden but it's hard to see the next Democratic President coming through.

        • RedLogix 8.2.2.1
          3 December 2021 at 11:35 am

          Watching Zeihan you have to remember he makes a living by presenting geopolitics in an entertaining fashion – but here's his take on the US:

  9. tc 9
    3 December 2021 at 10:30 am

    My vaccine passport disappeared so I had to reload it. Thanks google !

    Keep an eye on that folks as tech 'upgrades' occur without asking for permission often.

    • Patricia Bremner 9.1
      3 December 2021 at 11:05 am

      Go to your Chemist and get a hard copy, then get it laminated Cheers. $2

    • Gezza 9.2
      3 December 2021 at 12:43 pm

      Mine got downloaded to my gmail address 3 days ago. When I went to open & save it somewhere on my phone yesterday to show the visiting Occupational Therapist, it had come down with all my particulars missing. It’s just a blank pass.

      Bloody shambles. I’ll have to go thru the whole process of requesting it & proving identity again. 😠

      • Gezza 9.2.1
        3 December 2021 at 7:49 pm

        So, I assume some kind of system glitch ocurred when the system checked my particulars from my driver’s licence, told me I had successfully applied for my vaccine pass, & that it would be emailed to my gmail address, but all it delivered was a completely blank pass with my particulars name dob vax dates not specified on it.

        Just tried 3 times to repeat the process. But couldn’t remember the password I used to register. (I wrote down the 6 digit verification code it sent me originally.)

        No problem, thinks I. There’s a standard Forgot password? link underneath the password text field. I’ll just click on that & it’ll offer me the option of entering a new password (that this time I’ll write down!).

        Nuh uh. All that does is loop me back constantly to the login email & password fields, which repeatedly tells me the password is incorrect. FFS!

        High call volumes, & mass passport extensions, the blank pass & this sort of very obvious screw-up of what is an easy password reset experience everywhere else tells me that incompetence & inadequate testing are unfortunately likely features of the current system.

    • Peter 1 9.3
      3 December 2021 at 12:53 pm

      My vaccine passport disappeared so I had to reload it. Thanks google !

      Thanks for that just checked mine and it's gone. My son said to look in google pay it mite be in there. But I don't have google pay.

      • AB 9.3.1
        3 December 2021 at 3:21 pm

        I downloaded GooglePay as a way to store a persistent copy of the Vaccine Pass on the Android phone. Having an old phone I had to mess around making enough storage space to install GooglePay. I refuse to habitually and expensively upgrade my phone every couple of years to get assorted crap I don't want.

        Anyway, it seems to work. Obviously from a speed of development perspective, integrating with existing tools/apps like GooglePay that are already out there is a much faster and smarter way of working than building and testing new stuff. But the whole thing does contain assumptions about how much spare cash people have to splash around on tech. Which sort of fits with all the hype about now being able to go to bars and restaurants in Auckland – who can afford that either except occasionally?

        And even odder that we now equate 'freedom' with stuffing our gobs and bellies with expensive slops.

    • weka 9.4
      3 December 2021 at 1:00 pm

      Has anyone been able to supply an explanation of what the My Vaccine Pass is exactly? (technically, for those that don't have one yet).

      • roblogic 9.4.1
        3 December 2021 at 1:56 pm

        It's a QR code you carry around. Venues will scan it to check your vaccination status.

        So it can be saved on your phone (generally in the secure wallet feature, where credit cards reside), or printed out.

        Yes it can be easily circumvented. IMO it’s just another bit of pandemic safety theatre to reassure the public. But it will probably help weed out the really obnoxious antisocial types.

        • weka 9.4.1.1
          3 December 2021 at 3:09 pm

          Ok, have I got this right?

          • it's a personalised QR code (a different code for each person)
          • this can be printed, or on a device as a screenshot/image or loaded into an app
          • businesses etc that require a Pass for access to inside scan this QR code at the door
            • what are they scanning it with?
            • what happens to the data?
            • what does the scanning tell the worker at the door?
          • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.4.1.1.1
            3 December 2021 at 3:23 pm

            The pass is supplied as a PDF file, which isn't the most convenient really (for opening on a phone etc). My household have printed and laminated ours.

            There is an app on Google Play for androids, that will verify passes on a phone (my massage-therapist friend downloaded it this morning – was working fine). On scanning a QR code, the verification app simply displays the information that is already shown on the front of the pass and says whether it is valid (i.e. the digital signature is legit). The app doesn't upload or store data to my knowledge.

            The app works offline, except for the first scan (this will be when it downloads the encryption public key). Presumably an app for iPhone also, but I wouldn't know.

          • roblogic 9.4.1.1.2
            3 December 2021 at 3:31 pm

            yep, yep.

            At the local cafe this morning they scanned it with another app called the "NZ Pass Verifier"

            The data is not supposed to be collected or stored. It's only supposed to confirm the customer's vax status.

            From the Privacy Policy (IMO technical loopholes are still possible)

            NZ Pass Verifier will enable app users to verify a My Vaccine Pass as an authentic record of vaccination or exemption. The app will display the name, date of birth and expiry date recorded in the QR Code of the Pass presented.

            You must use any personal information accessed by the app in accordance with the Privacy Act 2020 and in accordance with any Order requirements. The app may only be used in compliance with current Orders, and users are not permitted to collect and/or use information about the presenter of the Pass via the app for any unrelated purpose.

            No identifiable information about the user of the device or the Pass is retained by the app.

            Basic analytics events are captured to record the number of successful and unsuccessful scans that have occurred. These events do not contain any personal information and are not able to be linked to an individual or location

            • roblogic 9.4.1.1.2.1
              3 December 2021 at 3:34 pm

              As it's open source it may only be a matter of time before someone comes up with a custom version with a backdoor to pilfer your personal information.

              • UncookedSelachimorpha …
                3 December 2021 at 3:43 pm

                You could certainly write an alternative app that harvested / stored / published on facebook all the data. There is nothing stopping this technically.

                I expect this would be illegal of course, same as gathering and publishing your customer's private information by any other means.

        • weka 9.4.1.2
          3 December 2021 at 3:10 pm

          In light of that, can you please also explain what this means from TC above?

          My vaccine passport disappeared so I had to reload it. Thanks google !

          Keep an eye on that folks as tech 'upgrades' occur without asking for permission often.

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.4.1.2.1
            3 December 2021 at 3:25 pm

            I am guessing they simply lost the PDF file, possibly from a cloud storage service (e.g. google drive, gmail or something).

            You can just get another one emailed to you from MOH.

            • weka 9.4.1.2.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 3:33 pm

              ah, so "tech 'upgrades' occur without asking for permission often." is probably unrelated to the QR code?

              • UncookedSelachimorpha …
                3 December 2021 at 3:39 pm

                I am guessing they simply lost the file, nothing to do with the QR code or the pass – could've just as easily lost a word document containing their favourite cake recipes…guessing!

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.4.2
        3 December 2021 at 3:06 pm

        There is a technical explanation here, including a link to even more technical info on Github and the full technical specification. It all is open source so the security can be examined by anyone.

        It is not necessarily that easily circumvented, in the sense that it is difficult to produce a fake, verifiable pass with your details. You can produce a fake that visually looks like a legit pass, but it will be rejected by the verifier app.

        The pass deploys asymmetric cryptography, which means the MOH has the private key and each QR code is signed so it can be verified with the freely-available public key. It is very difficult (near impossible) to produce a signature that matches the pass plain-text data, without possession of the private key.

        • roblogic 9.4.2.1
          3 December 2021 at 3:21 pm

          Pretty easy to print several copies of a valid pass and share it around with your mates. Most businesses aren't going to double check against another form of ID

          • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.4.2.1.1
            3 December 2021 at 3:32 pm

            Yep, need to check against other (photo) ID to confirm the name matches the person.

            Many close-contact businesses know all their customers by name already, and being asked for photo ID at entry of pubs, concerts etc is not unusual.

            What I think is unfair and disadvantages poorer people, is the lack of free, easily-accessible photo ID, especially for young people (the vaccine pass requirement applies to everyone over 12 years old). The "kiwi access card" costs $55 and is only for people over 18 years old.

            • Macro 9.4.2.1.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 3:42 pm

              Agree as you say above. A drivers license is acceptable, but again not everyone has one of those. There was some debate a few years ago, as I recall, of the govt issuing an ID card. Lots of people against such a move because – privacy. But you can see that a card would have its uses in such a situation as we are now experiencing.

          • McFlock 9.4.2.1.2
            3 December 2021 at 4:54 pm

            Easy. Not advisable:

            258 Altering, concealing, destroying, or reproducing documents with intent to deceive

            (1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years who, with intent to obtain by deception any property, privilege, service, pecuniary advantage, benefit, or valuable consideration, or to cause loss to any other person,—

            (a) alters, conceals, or destroys any document, or causes any document to be altered, concealed, or destroyed; or

            (b) makes a document or causes a document to be made that is, in whole or in part, a reproduction of any other document.

            (2) An offence against subsection (1) is complete as soon as the alteration or document is made with the intent referred to in that subsection, although the offender may not have intended that any particular person should—

            (a) use or act upon the document altered or made; or
            (b) act on the basis of the absence of the document concealed or destroyed; or
            (c)be induced to do or refrain from doing anything.
            (3)Every person is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years who, without reasonable excuse, sells, transfers, or otherwise makes available any document knowing that—
            (a) the document was altered, concealed, or made, in whole or in part, as a reproduction of another document; and
            (b)the document was dealt with in the manner specified in paragraph (a) with intent to—
            (i) obtain any property, privilege, service, pecuniary advantage, benefit, or valuable consideration; or
            (ii)cause loss to any other person.

            259 Using altered or reproduced document with intent to deceive

            (1)Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years who, knowing any document to have been made or altered in the manner and with the intent referred to in section 258, with intent to obtain by deception any property, privilege, service, pecuniary advantage, benefit, or valuable consideration, or to cause loss to any other person,—
            (a) uses, or deals with, or acts upon, the document; or
            (b)causes any person to use or deal with, or act upon, the document.

            (2) For the purposes of this section, it does not matter that the document was altered or made outside New Zealand.

            • roblogic 9.4.2.1.2.1
              3 December 2021 at 10:44 pm

              I am not advising fraud or false declarations in any of my comments. Just thinking of possible weaknesses of the system.

              • McFlock …
                3 December 2021 at 11:11 pm

                Not advisable for them. Didn't say you were advising them.

                But that's the first bit. Deterrence. That'll stop a few, although admittedly risk assessment is a problem for the potential crowd.

                Then there's the fact that the name and date of birth come up. Even without parallel ID checks, if a middle-aged regular called "Charlie" comes up as 23 year old "Tristan", that's another issue altogether. And maybe Charlie is a bit of a dick. That might make someone care.

                Is it completely perfect? Nope. Some vendors won't notice or care. But an organised effort has a high likelihood of quickly being identified, and the copied code being blacklisted when vendor apps receive the next update. Or even better, "contact police" coming up when it's tried.

            • Craig Hall 9.4.2.1.2.2
              3 December 2021 at 11:04 pm

              That probably doesn't apply because entering somewhere in breach of Covid orders is not usually intended to gain pecuniary advantage by deception ("service" in that context is paid services, not something like service at a bar). It's a breach of the Covid order however and punishable by a hefty fine.

              • McFlock …
                3 December 2021 at 11:49 pm

                I'm no lawyer, fair call. But there'd be something dodgy as feck about it beyond the covid regs.

                Forgery (s256) has some wider criteria.

                I almost hope someone tries it – if it's not a dishonesty offence of some sort, it bloody should be and that might be the incentive for the government to do something about it.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.4.3
        3 December 2021 at 3:16 pm

        The personal information in the pass is printed in plaintext on the front, and is in the QR code also. It is only:

        – full name

        – date of birth

        – pass start date

        – pass expiry date

        • weka 9.4.3.1
          3 December 2021 at 3:33 pm

          thank-you!

          • weka 9.4.3.1.1
            3 December 2021 at 3:34 pm

            found a pic too

            • Macro 9.4.3.1.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 3:48 pm

              Yes that's it. To display it on your phone you have to first verify that it is you ( the owner of the phone by password or finger print) and the mycovid website verifies that you are the owner of the phone before it initially sends the pass to the phone.

              • UncookedSelachimorpha …
                3 December 2021 at 4:19 pm

                It is linked to your email address, not a device. Or in my case it was.

                • Macro …
                  3 December 2021 at 5:32 pm

                  True, but if you want to register your phone as well they want to verify that as well obviously.

              • weka …
                3 December 2021 at 5:03 pm

                wait, what? So I can't just take a photo of the printed or emailed PDF and use that? How do they verify the paper copies?

                and the mycovid website verifies that you are the owner of the phone before it initially sends the pass to the phone.

                Wait, what? I thought it was being emailed? Are you saying it's also an option to send it straight to a phone? How?

                • McFlock …
                  3 December 2021 at 5:09 pm

                  The email has a link so if you open the email on your phone, you press that link and it sends the qrcode to the app.

                  The medium (paper, photo, app, email) is irrelevant. All that matters is the QR code.

                  The QR code contains all the information required to both state whether you're vaccinated and to internally verify that the code is genuine.

                  • weka …
                    3 December 2021 at 5:17 pm

                    I understand what the QR code is for. I don't understand the various techs being used, and consequently the privacy and security issues (and please, nobody tell me 'trust us it's safe').

                    The email has a link so if you open the email on your phone, you press that link and it sends the qrcode to the app.

                    What app?

                    • weka …
                      3 December 2021 at 5:17 pm

                      I appreciate all the answers 👍 Just odd that there's no simple, all in one place explanation.

                    • McFlock …
                      3 December 2021 at 5:43 pm

                      Sorry, it sends the QR code to the "digital wallet" the phone might have.

                      The only tech that is required is:

                      • the vendor's app so e.g. the cafe knows you're ok
                      • the QR code itself

                      Everything else is up to the person who gets the pass. They can store it and present it however they want (paper print-out, photo on their phone, digital wallet on their phone, tattoo, stone tablet, literally anything), as long as a vendor's app can read the QR code.

                      Whether the person who gets the pass is opening themselves up to security issues based on the medium they choose is up to them.

                      If the vendor is using the official NZGovt app, that spec is online. If the vendor uses a third-party app developed using the spec, the only information that can possibly be compromised is the information about you in the QR code:

                      • – full name
                      • – date of birth
                      • – pass start date
                      • – pass expiry date
                    • Macro …
                      3 December 2021 at 5:50 pm

                      If you are using a phone to store your pass the easiest way on an android phone is to have the google pay app. You supposedly can get by, not having that app, but I found I needed to down load it to get past go. The thing is the google pay app is set up so you have to erify that you are the user each time you use it by setting up a PIN or in my case using a fingerprint. That protects your info from being accessed by someone else who may have got hold of your phone for nefarious reasons.

                      Once you have the google pay app on your phone and set up, the Vaccine pass set up is smooth. You can then set up a shortcut so that you do not have to access google pay – just a touch of a icon – verify you are the correct user, and hey presto there is your pass, as displayed in your photo above.

                    • weka …
                      3 December 2021 at 9:36 pm

                      Macro, how is that easier than taking a photo and keeping that in a notes app?

                    • weka …
                      3 December 2021 at 9:37 pm

                      I someone steals my phone I think them using my vax pass is the least of my worries.

                    • weka …
                      3 December 2021 at 9:39 pm

                      thanks McFlock. I've probably got a wallet app on my iphone that I don't use for anything else, might use it for this, so good to know the full range of options.

                      Do most people not have their battery run down on their phone?

                    • Patricia Bremner …
                      3 December 2021 at 9:56 pm

                      Weka Jacinda had a print of hers laminated and on the back of her phone. Cute.

                    • Gezza …
                      3 December 2021 at 10:04 pm

                      Yes, she said on 7 Sharp she did that because she wasn’t very “techie” – or something along those lines.

                    • weka …
                      3 December 2021 at 10:13 pm

                      that's cool.

        • Craig Hall 9.4.3.2
          3 December 2021 at 11:07 pm

          Pass start date has been revoked so won't be on new passes.

  10. Anker 10
    3 December 2021 at 11:21 am

    https://abigailshrier.substack.com/p/why-marci-matters?

    Ok so it’s all starting to come out now……

    two top gender clinicians (who are also both transgender) admit that puberty blockers in some children may lead to the inability to orgasm……….Jazz Jennings the post child for transitioning (had her own reality tv series about it) being a Case in point.

    gender ideologists want immediate affirmation and confirmation of young persons gender identity and access to medical transition without question…the idea that puberty blockers are harmless is untrue. They are experimental and we are only realising the harm they do

    Under the proposed Conversion Practices Bill counsellors and parents are at risk of a police complaint and up to five years in jail if they query a young person desire to medically transition. It may not be how the law pans out, but I believe and there is some evidence for this, that that is how gender ideology activists want it to be. I base this on the submissions I heard and read to the select committee

    • RedLogix 10.1
      3 December 2021 at 11:44 am

      I can only imagine the profound and bitter regrets these people will go through in later life.

      • Anker 10.1.1
        3 December 2021 at 12:24 pm

        Yes Redlogix. Not to mention fertility issues and permanant changes to their presentation e.g facial hair, deep voice, Adam's apple on a biological women who tranistioned then has regrets.

        Its sad, but it is outrageous that some adults are enabling this.

      • roblogic 10.1.2
        3 December 2021 at 3:42 pm

        This mania for de-sexing people is the akin to lobotomies and leeching. Bizarre social contagion.

  11. observer 11
    3 December 2021 at 11:52 am

    Luxon giving stand-up in Auckland. Says the city should be at "green", doesn't want restrictions. Open up, all good.

    He seems oblivious to reality.

    It's also politically inept. There are many other issues to challenge the gov't on. He (or his advisers) should be saying "leave Covid alone, the polls on that speak for themselves".

    https://twitter.com/nealejones/status/1466538219298721797

    • Robert Guyton 11.1
      3 December 2021 at 12:00 pm

      But good for business (big end of town!)

      • observer 11.1.1
        3 December 2021 at 12:10 pm

        I've had a good search and I can't find a single qualified voice (public health, epidimeology etc) who thinks Auckland should simply drop all restrictions, right now.

        It's incredible that Luxon would go doolally on this. I suppose he's relying on the "honeymoon" to deflect the obvious Qs.

        If Ardern/Bloomfield said what Luxon just did there would be uproar.

        • Anker 11.1.1.1
          3 December 2021 at 12:22 pm

          Luxon doesn't even need to be serious about Auckland going green light. He knows he can't make that happen so it is a cheap way of getting those who are frustrated with restrictions on board. It is kind of a win win for him.

          • observer 11.1.1.1.1
            3 December 2021 at 12:33 pm

            I agree he is only doing it for show, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a safe bet.

            At this stage it may not hurt him but he doesn't need the Brian Tamaki fan club (1%), he needs the 20% who support the gov't on Covid but not on various other issues.

            Statements like this on the record stack up over time.

            • Anker 11.1.1.1.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 1:37 pm

              I agree Observer. Its a strategy that could back fire. But he may still pick up votes from it. And its so easy saying how things should be and please those who want it that way, when you can't deliver.

        • AB 11.1.1.2
          3 December 2021 at 3:35 pm

          Maybe he's dangerously emboldened by the rapturous fawning of the Herald/ZB sycophants – and is saying out loud the thing that should only be whispered among friends? Or maybe he reckons no-one's listening, the phone's off the hook and he can say all sorts of dumb sh*t with impunity?

    • tc 11.2
      3 December 2021 at 12:15 pm

      Consistently irresponsible like Collins etc as expected.

    • bwaghorn 11.3
      3 December 2021 at 12:17 pm

      Seriously!!! That's wacky

      • Macro 11.3.1
        3 December 2021 at 3:04 pm

        Totally! He's playing up to the Elite and Business class as per Air NZ – but even Air NZ are more responsible than that now.

        There are over 6000 active cases of Covid in Auckland. 56 of yesterdays cases were active in the community. It took only 1 unknown case in the community to start this latest outbreak. True over 90% of eligible persons in Auckland are now fully vaccinated, but they are still 10's of thousands including all children under 12 who are not.

    • solkta 11.4
      3 December 2021 at 12:22 pm

      Not according to RNZ:

      National Party leader Christopher Luxon has been in the city's viaduct harbour today, speaking to hospitality business owners. He told reporters that the city should have gone to the orange setting, as the red light is for when the health system is overwhelmed and vaccination rates are low – neither of which is happening in Auckland.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/457097/live-updates-traffic-light-system-operational-aucklanders-emerge-from-lockdown

          • solkta 11.4.1.1.1
            3 December 2021 at 12:53 pm

            I just listened to it three times and i could not find where he used the word "green".

            • observer 11.4.1.1.1.1
              3 December 2021 at 1:00 pm

              The RNZ link you posted above has now been edited:

              "He told reporters that the city should have gone to the green setting"

              I can't account for your hearing, I'm afraid. Are you listening to the whole stand-up or just clips?

              • solkta …
                3 December 2021 at 1:12 pm

                I've been watching the one on stuff which is the only video of his statement in the three links.

                • Macro …
                  3 December 2021 at 3:08 pm

                  The new leader of the National Party is questioning the government's call to put Auckland into the red setting under the traffic light system, as the city emerges from four months of lockdown today.

                  Auckland cafes and gyms opened their doors today as New Zealand dropped alert levels and moved into the Covid-19 protection framework.

                  National Party leader Christopher Luxon has been in the city's viaduct harbour today, speaking to hospitality business owners. He told reporters that the city should have gone to the green setting, as the red light is for when the health system is overwhelmed and vaccination rates are low – neither of which is happening in Auckland.

                  He says Auckland hospitality businesses are worried about the city emptying over the summer and being hit again in the pocket.

                  (my bold)

                  https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/457097/live-updates-traffic-light-system-operational-aucklanders-emerge-from-lockdown

                  • solkta …
                    3 December 2021 at 3:19 pm

                    Yes i know the msm are reporting that. But he doesn't actually say that in the video interview as available. Perhaps he answered questions after or issued a press release?

                  • alwyn …
                    3 December 2021 at 7:27 pm

                    You are quoting the RNZ interpretation of what they are claiming he said. As usual they are misquoting him because the Labour Party provided tax-payer funded grant to RNZ requires them to do so.

                    What Luxon did was to explain what the traffic light system was meant to represent. In particular Red was for when the health system was overwhelmed and the vaccination rates were low. As he said, and as the Government itself says, the vaccination rates in Auckland are high and there is no threat to overwhelm the hospitals.

                    If the Government was setting the colours as their system claimed they should then, as he pointed out they should have, following their own defined rules, have been displayed a Green light.

                    He then pointed out how stupid the traffic light system actually is and why National were opposed to it.

                    He never once advocated that Auckland should be Green, He simply pointed out that, using the Government explanation of their own system, they would have had to declare it to be Green.

                    As usual the msm journalists have chosen to misquote those MPs who are not on the left wing of politics. You have chosen to follow the party line.

                    Why don't you try listening to what he actually said during the question time instead of believing the bs that the reporter has invented?

              • alwyn …
                3 December 2021 at 6:45 pm

                The Stuff report has also been edited. Originally they said the Luxon had called for the whole city to be in Green. They have corrected it by adding the following,

                "Clarification: An earlier version of this article said Luxon wanted Auckland to be in green. He in fact said that hospitality was ready for green, and National was against the traffic-light system. (Amended December 3, 2021, 2:14pm)"

                As far as I can see they are the only ones to include the whole statement and answers he gave.

                • observer …
                  3 December 2021 at 6:58 pm

                  I never understand why people do this in online debate … make a claim and hope that nobody knows how to Google.

                  https://www.1news.co.nz/2021/12/02/live-stream-nationals-luxon-speaks-to-media-on-auckland-visit/

                  • alwyn …
                    3 December 2021 at 7:34 pm

                    As I commented above he simply pointed out that if the Government had followed the rules they had laid down for what the various colours meant they would have had to call it a Green zone.

                    • Macro …
                      3 December 2021 at 9:16 pm

                      So yes he does say to reporters in his opinion Auckland should have gone to green. What is there to misunderstand about that. The only thing you can take away from that sentiment is one of complete callousness or a complete failure to appreciate just how serious the threat of reinfection is. There are 6000 plus active cases in Auckland alone right now. Dozens of cases active in the community every day.

                    • alwyn …
                      3 December 2021 at 11:01 pm

                      You didn't bother to listen to it did you?

                      You can't find him saying that can you?

                    • Macro …
                      4 December 2021 at 1:00 am

                      I"m sorry my ears must have deceived me.

                      Or have you not had a recent auditory test? Go back and listen carefully this time. His words clearly imply that in his "humble" opinion Auckland should be in green. That is the clear impression he wants to give.

                  • higherstandard …
                    3 December 2021 at 7:42 pm

                    He's the devil !

    • Tricledrown 11.5
      3 December 2021 at 12:27 pm

      Luxon gone by Christmas time.

      What a complete tosser.

      Out of the frypan into the fire.

      Own goal .

      Looks like he is trying to win votes back from ACT but leak more votes to Labour.

      Conehead alien out of his depth.

    • rod 11.6
      3 December 2021 at 5:00 pm

      Yep Luxon sounds like a moaner and whinger already.no

  12. Blazer 12
    3 December 2021 at 12:05 pm

    He's making a great…start.

    apologies to the original composers

    Baldfinger
    'He's the man, the man with the Midas touch
    A spider's touch
    Such a cold finger
    Beckons you to enter his web of sin
    But don't go in

    Golden words he will pour in your ear
    But his lies can't disguise what you fear
    For a swinging voter knows when he's kissed them
    It's the kiss of death from

    Mister Baldfinger
    Voters beware of this heart of gold
    This heart is cold

    He loves only gold
    Only gold
    He loves gold
    He loves only gold
    Only gold
    He loves gold'

  13. Stephen D 13
    3 December 2021 at 1:20 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127175300/councillor-efeso-collins-puts-name-forward-in-aucklands-mayoral-race

    Now that would be interesting. I’m not sure if Auckland voters are up for a left wing, Polynesian mayor. He’d win the South and West, might struggle with the isthmus and north of the bridge.

  14. Mark Craig 14
    3 December 2021 at 1:22 pm

    After 50 years of reading the Herald I have cancelled my subscription this morning.There has been no attempt by the paper at even handedness at all.I have had to endure endless carping from Prebble ,Hosking ,the ex national mp Fran O'Sullivan etc etc .Ireland an island has a population of 5million people like us and they have lost 5400 people to covid .I think we have lost 38 or there abouts.Instead of the endless specious arguments we should be celebrating what can only be described as a monumental success.

  15. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 15
    3 December 2021 at 1:34 pm

    Just watching the 1pm presser with Grant Robertson.

    With dropping cases and NZers embracing vaccination in overwhelming numbers, the questions are quite low key and amicable. Even Barry Soper was civil.

    The Natz have an uphill task trying to fault this governments' world-leading response to Covid 19.

    On top of that, the session only lasted about 40 minutes!

    • Bearded Git 15.1
      3 December 2021 at 2:35 pm

      Agreed TV…when she said 92 at the presser I thought maybe, just maybe, with fierce contact tracing we can keep Covid at very low to negligible numbers…..if we keep MIQ at the borders of course.

      But now we have 7-houses saying Auckland should go Green today-he would open the border today too.

      • Pete 15.1.1
        3 December 2021 at 2:54 pm

        He is saying he would open the border today.

        Of course if his cobbers had got in in 2017 he wouldn't be opening the border today because faced with the pandemic they would've done things differently across the board. There would've been no lockdowns, no mandates on anything, Simon Thornley would've been their chief expert and everything would've been sweet.

        He is all piss-and-wind because he can be and he knows cretinous National supporters will be orgasmic at having a 'sensible man of business' with a handle on covid reality at the helm. Joke.

        I'm imagining him organising a cup of tea in Mt Eden with David Seymour. John Key did that to give Act one seat. I wonder if the new master businessman will be trying for a repeat to get the 10 seats back.

        • Gezza 15.1.1.1
          3 December 2021 at 3:22 pm

          Heavens above. I thought he’d have had enuf sense to keep a low profile now until he’s announced his spokespeople allocations.

          Looks like barking at every passing car in the hope of scoring some (old, already-committed National voters’) votes each time might be the strategy.

          • woodart 15.1.1.1.1
            3 December 2021 at 3:45 pm

            luxum will be so busy barking at passing cars, he will miss his appointment with seymour to have a cuppa. luckily ,his handlers will sort that out ,as well as satanising, sorry, sanatising his backstory. expect to see him at next big gay out , and at his local bunnings, backing a trailer in to pick up some handyman type thingies. expect to see his handlers try and put distance between john and notjohn . john in hawiian shirts, notjohn in blue shirts and preworn jeans . to pretend he's one of us, he might even cross the bridge one night and slum it at the speedway . rt wing polies have a habit of using speedway to pretend they are real kiwis. don brash frantically wedging into a midget. blenglish driving a stock car at baypark around the same time he went boxing, collins slumming at te marua(welly) speedway one night, that last one was really cringeworthy(crusher having to be nice to boy(and girl) racers) LOL.

        • roblogic 15.1.1.2
          3 December 2021 at 3:47 pm

          if the Nats were in charge they would fudge the numbers and privatise the health system

    • logie97 15.2
      3 December 2021 at 3:55 pm

      The difference in roles in an airline.

      I see the (ex) CEO is calling for Auckland's regime to be reduced to "green lights" forthwith.

      Of course that's why he was a CEO and not the Pilot.

      The pilot warns that there is a storm ahead and may have to depart from flight plans in order to minimise passenger discomfort and possible damage to the aircraft. The altered route may add a few minutes to the flight time and cost a little more in fuel.

      The CEO, on the other hand, sitting in the relative comfort of Business Class, instructs the cabin crew to relay an order, "Sod the passenger discomfort – your instructions are to get this flight to its destination in the quickest and cheapest means possible!"

  16. roblogic 16
    3 December 2021 at 2:14 pm

    Enjoyed my first proper cafe visit this morning. Sat in the sunshine and scoffed my croissant. Then back to the salt mines. WFH ain't so bad in Parnell.. probably 20 cafe's in easy walking range

  17. Alan 17
    3 December 2021 at 4:39 pm

    Interesting Roy Morgan poll today

    • observer 17.1
      3 December 2021 at 4:49 pm

      Yes. Support for the Greens is 15.5%, among voters under 50. (That is consistent with other polls on climate change + environment, and the voter demographics).

      Pretty clear lesson for National: don't drag your feet (like Labour) or worse, go into reverse. Over to you, Mr Luxon.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 17.2
      3 December 2021 at 4:56 pm

      Here's a link

      http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8869-nz-national-voting-intention-november-2021-202112020109

      If this keeps going it won’t be NAct…it’ll be ACTional !!

      • weka 17.2.1
        3 December 2021 at 5:21 pm

        Or, L/G, Mp (49.5) are well ahead of NACT (44).

        All depends on how one spins it 😉

        I do think we shouldn't be complacent (and am aware I did say the other day that short of the arrival of someone charismatic like Key I couldn't see National winning the next election. ACT on the other hand…)

        • Puckish Rogue 17.2.1.1
          3 December 2021 at 6:29 pm

          Its the trend darling

          Also big thanks should be given to the divine Ms Collins for getting National back into the frame for a resounding National victory at the next election angel

  18. Maurice 18
    3 December 2021 at 6:06 pm

    Another way to look at the latest CB Poll is

    Labour 36.0%

    NOTlabour 64.0%

    Elections here are usually lost not won

    • woodart 18.1
      3 December 2021 at 6:25 pm

      another way to look at the latest poll is ; election is two years away. if we have learnt anything from the last two years(many havent) ,is that anything can happen between now and next election…..

    • observer 18.2
      3 December 2021 at 6:43 pm

      a) it's not the latest CB poll, and b) we've had MMP for 25 years.

      But I look forward to your idea of an ACT-National-NZF-Greens-TPM-TOP-NewCons coalition.

      • Maurice 18.2.1
        3 December 2021 at 7:06 pm

        CB => Complete B…S

        Get with the progrom!

        Yep A multi-party coalition may well have a few stability problems …..

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