Open mike 04/10/2023

Written By: - Date published: 7:49 am, October 4th, 2023 - 91 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

91 comments on “Open mike 04/10/2023 ”

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  1. Ad 1
    4 October 2023 at 7:50 am

    Matt Gaetz as House Speaker?

    Ewwww.

    • Macro 1.1
      4 October 2023 at 9:57 pm

      Never going to happen.

      The MAGA shower have too few votes and there are too many "moderate" Republicans who wouldn't want him anywhere near the speakers gavel either.

  2. dv 2
    4 October 2023 at 7:56 am

    OOPS

    Goldman Sachs analysts warn National’s proposed tax cuts risk exacerbating inflation, and therefore causing interest rates to remain higher for longer.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/election-2023-nationals-tax-cuts-could-push-interest-rates-up-goldman-sachs-analysts-warn/VB6QT4LQCFFA5HJDPVWQKCQSUA/

    Pay walled

    • Barfly 2.1
      4 October 2023 at 8:36 am

      laughlaugh Muppetts

    • weka 2.2
      4 October 2023 at 8:51 am

      Link past the paywall

      https://archive.ph/23WEA

    • observer 2.3
      4 October 2023 at 8:56 am

      That shows how idiotic so much of the coverage of "tax cuts" has been. Treating it like scratch Lotto … "you could get $20 in your hand!". That only makes sense if everything else stays the same.

      Economic policy changes things (sorry for stating the obvious, but the obvious isn't being reported much in this campaign). Sure, analysts might not all agree on the possible effects, but at a bare minimum there must be consideration of increased household costs, which would include house prices, rent, interest rates, council rates, and everything else related to the voter's home.

      It's a con, and not even a subtle one.

      • Ngungukai 2.3.1
        4 October 2023 at 9:20 am

        Tax Cuts are National's standard go to Policy, that trick has worked b4 as the average person does not understand the finer detail. Once National are voted in they develop policy to pay for the Tax Cuts like raising GST which for lower income earners nullifies the value of the Tax Cut.

        The Lower Socio-Economic groups or "Bottom Feeders" who Luxon refers them as will get hammered by this next NACT Government.

    • Ngungukai 2.4
      4 October 2023 at 6:41 pm

      Nikki Willis is doubting Goldman Sachs analysis and Grant Robertson's analysis, obviously she is a lot smarter than they are, hopefully she can clarify this and disprove their analysis.

  3. tsmithfield 3
    4 October 2023 at 7:56 am

    Bryce Edwards has given 10 reasons why Labour's support has halved.

    I think point two is the most critical in terms of this election. That is failure to deliver on key projects such as Kiwibuild and Light Rail. I think this is front and centre of voters' minds when they consider promises that Labour makes for this current election. A lot of voters likely think "yeah right" and doubt what Labour promises will ever happen.

    In the case of Kiwibuild, even having brought a Kiwibuild property doesn't necessarily guarantee you will get it.

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    4 October 2023 at 8:02 am

    RNZ newsreader, 7am, said Labour MPs had told RNZ that saving the furniture is what matters now – but is parliament's furniture really threatened?

    I suppose if the mob invades parliament next week then takes off in all directions carrying it, they'll be vindicated in their stand. Pictures of that happening on the evening news could effect a stunning turn-around in Labour's political fortunes.

    However there's a real danger undecided voters will decide Labour has the wrong priorities. After all, folks can buy useful furniture at many large op-shops & parliamentary services could always go to Target if they felt obliged to be more up-market. Still, those Labour MPs could be right – let's wait & see if the mob goes for it.

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    4 October 2023 at 8:13 am

    Situation Tamaki on a knife-edge:

    ACT deputy leader Brooke van Velden is locked in a statistical tie with the incumbent Simon O'Connor in the previously safe National seat of Tāmaki, a new Taxpayers' Union-Curia poll reveals.

    When those who are undecided or refused to state their preferences are removed, O'Connor is on 40 percent support – down 13 points on the 2020 election – while van Velden is on 38 percent, up 30 points on the last election. Labour's Fesaitu Solomone was on 14 percent, the Greens on 4 percent, Te Pāti Māori on 2 percent, and NZ First on 1 percent.

    Tāmaki has been a National stronghold for decades since former prime minister Robert Muldoon won the seat back at the 1960 general election.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/499326/act-s-brooke-van-velden-turns-up-heat-on-simon-o-connor-in-new-poll

    If she wins it'll embed ACT for the forseeable future. I wonder what made her ditch the Greens & switch to ACT – haven't seen any reporter ask her the obvious question.

    • Mike the Lefty 5.1
      4 October 2023 at 8:25 am

      Why does anyone go to the ACT Party?

      More money.

      ACT is the party for the people who always want more of it.

    • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.2
      4 October 2023 at 8:29 am

      IMO Brooke van Velden one of the blue …"Green"? types you keep promulgating…For reasons known to yourself.

      Prior to working for Seymour she worked for Matthew Hooton's lobbying firm Exceltium, and was at number 3 on the list in the 2017 election.

      “I switched from being a Green Party voter to an ACT supporter while studying economics and international trade at Auckland University. The ability for free markets to lift countries from hardship was a revelation for me,” van Velden said in a statement.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300044090/act-reveals-new-list-elects-27yearold-staffer-deputy-leader-and-puts-gun-lobbyist-at-number-three

      Hooten? She might like..Green, as in gardening.

      • Dennis Frank 5.2.1
        4 October 2023 at 9:00 am

        I've explained the lack of authenticity of the left-Green stance often enough onsite here in the past, so those reasons you mention ought to be well-known by now. In sum: The Green movement I joined in '68 was deliberately conceived as neither left nor right but in front. Since that ethos went global in the early '80s I'm surprised you remain unaware of it.

        Her view of lifting poverty via market forces is valid enough and I've reported stats on that once or twice here – it's just that the picture is more complex for us in the developed world, which is why the GP gets public support for wealth taxation.

        • Ngungukai 5.2.1.1
          4 October 2023 at 9:26 am

          Ideological the Free Trade Ideology in the real world which she probably hasn't experienced International Trade does not work that way, Seymour Butt would not understand that either as he has never had a proper job in his working life.

      • AB 5.2.2
        4 October 2023 at 9:50 am

        Interesting. A case of a University Business School succeeding at what it was designed to do. How economics is taught is just one more frontline in the battle.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 5.2.2.1
          4 October 2023 at 11:16 am

          Hmm – Dennis Frank missed his opportunity for a free hit at universities there wink

          Inside Job | Official Trailer HD (2010)
          “I don’t believe I have to discuss that with you.”
          “We’re sorry – we won’t do it again. Trust us.”

    • Graeme 5.3
      4 October 2023 at 8:49 am

      A sizeable proportion of the voters of Tamaki could have had enough of Simon O'Conner's personal views too. I know several National voters who would vote very strategically to get rid of a happy clappy if National put one up in their electorate.

      Would say the party vote in Tamaki is still resoundingly blue.

      • observer 5.3.1
        4 October 2023 at 9:26 am

        It makes sense to oust O'Connor, even for left-wing voters.

        He would be replaced by a National list candidate. Tamaki voters can't choose who, obviously that would depend on National's party vote. But still likely to be less terrible than an ultra-conservative, one of the worst in the House.

        (Brooke VV will be there regardless, on the list. So it's a free hit).

    • alwyn 5.4
      4 October 2023 at 11:40 am

      The same thing seems to be happening in Mahutu's seat of Hauraki-Waikato. The difference seems to be a little larger at 4% but I can't imagine that Nania is going to be very happy. She is on 36% with the TPM candidate on 32%.

      If she loses of course she's gone as she hasn't got a place on the Labour Party list.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/499329/general-election-2023-nanaia-mahuta-facing-serious-challenge-in-hauraki-waikato-poll-shows

      • Dennis Frank 5.4.1
        4 October 2023 at 12:07 pm

        Yeah looks like a classic generational divide happening there. Mahuta's track record versus a vote for the future…

      • Patricia Bremner 5.4.2
        4 October 2023 at 1:15 pm

        Nanaia Mahuta has always gone to the electorate. She believes in Democracy.

        • alwyn 5.4.2.1
          4 October 2023 at 3:02 pm

          That isn't true I'm afraid Patricia.

          She was on the list, and quite high up, in every election since 2008 except for 2017 when, if I remember correctly, the party decided that none of the Maori electorate members should be on the list except for Kelvin Davis.

          She was number 6 in 2014, 10 in 2008 and 2020 and number 12 in 2011.

          I can't be bothered looking any further back than that.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 5.4.2.1.1
            4 October 2023 at 5:35 pm

            I can't be bothered looking any further back than that.

            Well I’m bothered! You'd have to look pretty far back to find a general election where Nanaia Mahuta didn't contest and win an electorate seat – 1996 in fact.

            An unbroken run of eight electorate seat victories must be close to a record among incumbent electorate MPs.

            In October 2022, Mahuta became the Mother of the House, being the longest continuously serving female MP (alongside Father of the House Gerry Brownlee).

            • Corey 5.4.2.1.1.1
              4 October 2023 at 6:35 pm

              Her being an mp for 27 years is a weakness not a strength for Gen z and Gen Y voters, a careerist old guard during a new Maori reneisance…

              Being in parliament for longer than many voters have been alive is a travesty.

              Anyone elected during the Bolger years should have retired during the early Key years.

              Yikes.

              We need Term limits on parliamentarians, professional politicians are genuinely the worst. Serving and representing your community is an honor, not a career!

              I actually despise the party system, it creates professional politicians who don't stand up for their communities and instead they just toe the party line and work their way up the party ladder.

            • alwyn 5.4.2.1.1.2
              4 October 2023 at 7:20 pm

              I'm not disputing that fact. It has, however absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.

              However Anne was, or at least I assume that she was, suggesting that Nanaia did not stand on the list and tried only for the electorate seat. That was the only interpretation I could make on the statement "Nanaia Mahuta has always gone to the electorate" in response to my comment that she wasn't on the list this time.

              If Anne meant something else perhaps she could reply and say what it was she did mean.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                4 October 2023 at 8:11 pm

                I didn't, and still don't believe that your reply to Patricia B was on point.

                Nanaia Mahuta has always gone to the electorate. – PB @5.4.1

                You began your reply with "That isn't true I'm afraid Patricia." And yet it is true for the last 8 elections – further back than you could be bothered.

                Mahuta has won an electorate seat in each of the last 8 elections, and you can’t win an electorate seat unless you have “gone to the electorate.”

                It was not true, however, for the 1996 election – let's call it a draw wink

                • alwyn …
                  4 October 2023 at 8:21 pm

                  Or perhaps as George and Ira Gershwin would have put it.

                  "You like potato and I like potahto
                  You like tomato and I like tomahto
                  Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto.
                  Let's call the whole thing off"

                  If Anne cares to tell us what she really meant I may show some further interest. Otherwise I can't be bothered as to whether your interpretation of what she meant versus mine is the more likely.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    4 October 2023 at 8:36 pm

                    If Anne cares to tell us what she really meant I may show some further interest.

                    George & Ira, or Tina Turner: What's "Anne" got to do, got to do with it?

                    Are you OK?

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                4 October 2023 at 8:28 pm

                Oops – PB @5.4.2

                • alwyn …
                  4 October 2023 at 9:28 pm

                  Sorry Anne. Sorry Patricia.

                  I got confused trying to understand what on earth Drowsy was going on about and used the wrong name in my reply to him.

                  What does Tina Turner have to do with my comment? Did she record it at some stage? George and Ira Gershwin wrote it long before she was around. The best recording of it, as far as I am concerned, was by Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    4 October 2023 at 10:33 pm

                    What does Tina Turner have to do with my comment?

                    About as much as the Gershwins have to do with mine smiley

                    OK, so you didn't understand "Nanaia Mahuta has always gone to the electorate.", in response to your comment about pre-election polling in Nanaia's electorate seat and her not being on Labour's list.

                    Had my doubts even you could be that confused, but no longer.

                    • alwyn …
                      5 October 2023 at 8:38 am

                      When Patricia tells me that that is what she meant I will accept it. When you magically divine what somebody else means with a statement I'll take the interpretation with a very large grain of salt. Your record for accuracy in such matters is not great.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    5 October 2023 at 10:00 am

                    Nanaia Mahuta has always gone to the electorate. – PB @5.4.2

                    Happy for others to decide whose interpretation is more ‘magical’ wink

                    Your record for accuracy in such matters is not great.

                    laugh

  6. weka 6
    4 October 2023 at 8:54 am

    From the files of things that are never meant to happen. Men lied about being non binary to gain access to a women’s tech recruitment conference.
    Lots of them.

    Feminists said this would happen and were called bigots.

    https://x.com/rottengirl/status/1709195019792318622?s=46

    • AB 6.1
      4 October 2023 at 10:03 am

      Would be interesting to know why. A so-called "men's rights" protest about a women-only event?. Oddball geeks wanting to hit on women? Tech guys don't always set the highest standards for their own personal behaviour. And genuine trans people aren't to blame for it.

      • weka 6.1.1
        4 October 2023 at 12:10 pm

        apart from the genuine trans people who are trans rights activists and who wholly supported and fought for exactly this.

        From what I can tell, it's a recruitment conference, so the dude's are after the jobs. But yeah, I would suspect there's been some MRA type organising going on, or even just the word got out and it's over entitled blokes who know how to game the systems.

        • AB 6.1.1.1
          4 October 2023 at 12:59 pm

          Fair enough. But it still annoys me that genuine trans people, whose lives are surely already difficult enough, get an extra dose of crap thrown at them because of opportunistic behaviour by men.

          • weka 6.1.1.1.1
            4 October 2023 at 3:24 pm

            Completely agree. It's one of the most stupid own goals from liberals I've seen, and they were warned that going beyond trans humans rights to taking from women's rights would backlash against trans people. It's not over yet and I really hope NZ can avoid the worst of that.

        • arkie 6.1.1.2
          4 October 2023 at 5:20 pm

          This year, droves of men showed up with résumés in hand. AnitaB.org, the nonprofit that runs the conference, said there was “an increase in participation of self-identifying males” at this year’s event.

          https://www.wired.com/story/grace-hopper-celebration-career-fair-men/

          It's not even trans people or men pretending to be non-binary, it's men just being men and feeling entitled. To lump trans people in with men as being the issue here is incorrect.

          • Belladonna 6.1.1.2.1
            4 October 2023 at 5:43 pm

            some registrants had lied about their gender identity when signing up,

            From your linked article.

            So, yes, the self-ID provision – theoretically for the benefit of trans people – has been abused in exactly the way that women have said it would be.

            By self-identified men – posing as 'women' for the purposes of registration – but with no intention of actually being in any way actually trans.

            I don't feel that anyone is blaming trans for the issue. They are blaming the system. And pointing out that the theoretical advantages for trans people haven't eventuated, while the predicted disadvantages for women have come to pass.

            • arkie 6.1.1.2.1.1
              4 October 2023 at 6:00 pm

              The statement that this situation is what trans rights activists 'wholly support and fought for' is absolutely incorrect and it is blaming trans advocates for a number of men (self-identifying men, i.e. not claiming to be trans) attending a space they already couldn't legally be excluded from. It has nothing to with any gains made by trans people in terms of legal recognition of their gender (which is where we hear the alarmism over people 'self-identifying').

              • Belladonna …
                4 October 2023 at 6:05 pm

                No. It's pointing out that the concerns that women had about the self-ID provisions designed to benefit trans people, being gamed by self-identifying men – have been found to be correct.

                Perhaps this comment was intended to be in response to someone else – since your quoted phrase doesn’t appear in my comment.

                • arkie …
                  4 October 2023 at 6:45 pm

                  This isn't an issue of identification on legal documents (what trans people want to 'self-ID' about) this is men, who identify as men, gate-crashing the event. Some booked places claiming non-binary status but didn't assert it when they attended. This isn't a situation about self-ID provisions as those are provisions are about legal documentation not about lying on a google form.

                  You said you don't feel anyone is blaming trans people, the quote is pointing out that which you may have missed, not what you specifically said.

                  • Belladonna …
                    4 October 2023 at 8:24 pm

                    Yes – these men used the self-ID provisions to game the system. Just as women said they would.

                    If you think that self-ID is limited to legal documentation – I invite you to inspect the real world.

                    It's clear that you support the self-ID provisions for trans people – which is at least a contributing factor. How do you think this kind of situation could or should be avoided?

                    • arkie …
                      4 October 2023 at 8:56 pm

                      No they didn't, they lied on an online form, paid an entry fee and showed up to apply for jobs as a man, identifying as a man, at a women’s conference they cannot legally be excluded from. Entitled behaviour that is very disappointing but unsurprising from men, particularly in this industry (gamergate etc. etc.). This is fundamentally different to someone being able to change their gender marker on their birth certificate by statutory declaration (as they already could for their passport and drivers licence) which is the 'self-ID provision' trans rights advocates support. This isn't a case of trans women taking cis women's spaces, it's men being men and feeling entitled to jobs they already disproportionally dominate. The patriarchy is the problem, the solutions to that are many and varied. In this particular situation the onus is on the companies soliciting applications to discriminate because it is federally illegal for the event organisers to do so and that has nothing to do with self-ID.

                    • weka []
                      4 October 2023 at 9:18 pm

                      “showed up to apply for jobs as a man, identifying as a man, at a women’s conference they cannot legally be excluded from”

                      How is it not legal to exclude males?

                      I agree with Belladonna. Self-ID is a set of sociopolitical changes across legislatoon, policy and culture. It’s not just about birth certificates. Self ID enables males to gain access to women’s spaces, it’s not a document that does, it’s societal sanction.

                      Where I said,

                      “apart from the genuine trans people who are trans rights activists and who wholly supported and fought for exactly this”

                      I wasn’t saying that trans people cause men to abuse the system. I was saying that removal of women’s spaces is an intended part of the activism. #notallTRAs of course. But there are TRAs who want an end to single sex spaces (this is what a big part of the UK fight is about).

                      Further, self ID is inherently a system that allows any man to self ID as a woman at any time and then has to be treated as such (or NB or whatever). That is the intention of the trans umbrella and self ID. There is no external validation needed, that’s the whole point.

                      When feminists said hang on, that’s going to cause all sorts of problems because men will abuse this system, many feminists were told to shut the fuck up, nazi bigot, and had sexualised abuse directed at them.

                      TRAs went ahead with self-ID despite being told of the problems. It’s intentional.

                    • arkie …
                      4 October 2023 at 9:44 pm

                      The article I posted says it is not legal because of 'federal non-discrimination protections in the US'

                      Self ID enables males to gain access to women’s spaces

                      You say male because you are lumping trans women in with the men in this situation which is erroneous.

                      You make extraordinary claims about the views and aims of others quite freely on this issue it seems.

                    • weka []
                      4 October 2023 at 10:11 pm

                      are you saying that you believe trans women aren’t biologically male?

                      are you also saying that NB males aren’t biologically male?

                    • arkie …
                      4 October 2023 at 10:23 pm

                      As the article I posted said the issue in this situation was men, 'self-identifying males'. That excludes trans women and non-binary people. Biology doesn't come in to it

                    • weka []
                      4 October 2023 at 10:31 pm

                      there are two issues here.

                      1. does self ID enable men access to women’s spaces?
                      2. do TW and NB males have the same kinds of patterns of behaviours as other males.

                      The first is self evident. If society says any man can say they are a woman at any time and have to be treated as such, this is a distinct change from women are adult human females and are entitled to their own spaces in some situations. In this case, would the men have felt entitled to enter a women’s conference without the aid of self ID?

                      I’ve seen no evidence that TW and NB males don’t share at least some of the patterns of behaviours as other males. Observation suggests they do.

          • weka 6.1.1.2.2
            4 October 2023 at 9:03 pm

            It's not even trans people or men pretending to be non-binary, it's men just being men and feeling entitled. To lump trans people in with men as being the issue here is incorrect.

            Yes, I know. This is the point, men are using self-ID to be NB to access women's stuff. Feminists have been warning about this for a long time and were called bigots.

            I didn't lump trans people in with this, I pointed out the problems with self-ID. Now you know what we've been going on about all this time.

            It's male entitlement, many men do it and so do many trans women and non-binary males.

            In addition, trans women aside, I'm still waiting to hear why NB males would be let into a women's event in the first place. No-one ever explains this.

            • arkie 6.1.1.2.2.1
              4 October 2023 at 9:57 pm

              I didn't lump trans people in with this

              and then

              It's male entitlement, many men do it and so do many trans women and non-binary males.

              You can't be serious

              Trans women and, as you say, non-binary 'males' would be welcome at this event, the issue here was men, who identify as men, they live as men, they lied to enter a job fair. That men lie to improve their employment chances is not a revelation that trans advocates are surprised by, but is fundamentally different to the idea that it is a property inherent to 'maleness' which incorrectly lumps trans and non-binary people into this situation.

              • weka …
                4 October 2023 at 10:05 pm

                yes, arkie, I'm a gender critical feminist. I see TW and NB males as biologically male. Most people do.

                Trans women and, as you say, non-binary 'males' would be welcome at this event, the issue here was men, who identify as men, they live as men, they lied to enter a job fair.

                Self ID means that any man can say he is a man at any time and has to be believed. It's very transphobic of you to be thinking you know which are the real trans people.

                That men lie to improve their employment chances is not a revelation that trans advocates are surprised by, but is fundamentally different to the idea that it is a property inherent to 'maleness' which incorrectly lumps trans and non-binary people into this situation.

                If I could be bothered I'd go dig up all the conversations were TRAs and trans allies said this shit wouldn't happen. Even when we said it would.

                Lying isn't a property inherent to maleness. Males of any identity self ID-ing into women's business is.

                You still haven't explained why NB males should be allowed into women's spaces.

                • arkie …
                  4 October 2023 at 10:31 pm

                  Lying isn't a property inherent to maleness. Males of any identity self ID-ing into women's business is.

                  And in this situation males self-identifying as men were the problem, no need to invoke trans people at all, except that you're a gender critical feminist, again, not new information.

                  People's genuinely held identities should be respected, but again, that wasn't the issue here and I'm at a loss as to why I'm expected to explain the admission policy choices of this event.

                  • weka …
                    4 October 2023 at 10:41 pm

                    And in this situation males self-identifying as men were the problem, no need to invoke trans people at all, except that you’re a gender critical feminist, again, not new information.

                    But the only reason they were able to self-ID is because of self-ID. I agree the problem isn’t trans people, it’s self-ID (and TRA pol).

                    People’s genuinely held identities should be respected, but again, that wasn’t the issue here and I’m at a loss as to why I’m expected to explain the admission policy choices of this event.

                    I agree that people’s genuinely held identities should be respected. Including women’s. But self ID is massively disrespectful to women’s culture and identity. You can’t have it both ways.

                  • weka …
                    4 October 2023 at 10:48 pm

                    what you are essentially arguing is the end of women’s culture. I would have less of a problem with a conference for people under represented or who face barriers in tech. But if they’re going to call it a women’s conference, then that’s a problem if it’s not for women only, as we have just seen.

                  • Belladonna …
                    5 October 2023 at 9:47 am

                    “And in this situation males self-identifying as men were the problem, no need to invoke trans people at all,”

                    That's just 'La-La-La fingers in the ears' not paying attention to the issue.

                    Which is males using the self-ID provisions designed for trans people – to access women's spaces.

                    Women said this would happen. And it has. Multiple times and in multiple different ways.

                    Still waiting to hear how trans-activists propose to address this – entirely foreseeable – consequence of the self-ID provisions they campaigned for.

  7. Dennis Frank 7
    4 October 2023 at 9:08 am

    Yeah but who wants to know about the real world during an election campaign?

    Marine and ice specialists from top research outfits gathered at an emergency summit in Wellington on Tuesday to discuss record low sea ice in Antarctica this year, which they described as "deeply alarming".

    "We are missing between seven and 10 New Zealands' worth of sea ice", National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research (NIWA) marine physicist Dr Natalie Robinson said. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/499335/researchers-call-for-urgent-emissions-cuts-as-antarctic-sea-ice-drops-off-a-cliff

    More than 40 researchers banded together to release a joint statement saying the unprecedented Antarctic sea ice low was driven by warming of the Southern Ocean and atmosphere, and calling for urgent cuts to climate pollution. Speaking to media afterwards, they were not buying the argument that New Zealand is too small to make a difference to climate change, saying urgent emissions cuts on the scale needed called for global cooperation and that New Zealand could have an outsized impact on a per-capita basis.

    At its seasonal peak, the typical area of ice floating on the Southern Ocean is so vast it doubles the size of the Antarctic continent, adding around 50 New Zealand’s worth of area. That was why it has such far-reaching effects on the planet’s climate.

    Neither Hipkins nor Luxon will pay attention & do the right thing, I predict. Neolib ideology defeats reality in the minds of such mainstreamers constantly.

    • Ad 7.1
      4 October 2023 at 10:53 am

      Is anyone yet venturing about how this might affect New Zealand?

      I'm presuming it will but don't have the expertise to venture how.

      I couldn't see it from the participants.

      • Dennis Frank 7.1.1
        4 October 2023 at 11:05 am

        I very much doubt it. They're providing the long-term holistic view. Causal analysis doesn't really work in complex systems, which is why the butterfly effect usually gets mentioned by those up with the scientific play.

        Brandolino the yank weather guy is usually good at pointing the media to the guts of whatever's happening but it would get down to the local interaction of El Nino & effects of the sea-ice decline down south. I haven't encountered any science on the effects of significant southern sea-ice reductions on a year-by-year basis.

      • AB 7.1.2
        4 October 2023 at 1:02 pm

        Ditto. But I think it's a reasonable presumption that it will put more fiscal pressure on governments having to deal with whatever happens. Not a good time to be gutting whatever pathetically inadequate pots of money governments might have already set aside.

  8. weka 8
    4 October 2023 at 9:13 am

    Sharon Murdoch doing her thing. The growths on Luxon’s back.

    https://x.com/domesticanimal/status/1709265262384689505?s=46

  9. arkie 9
    4 October 2023 at 9:20 am

    To those who thought TOP were principled and progressive:

    [TOP leader, Raf Manji is] calling on National to stand aside in Ilam so TOP gets into Parliament with a handful of MPs, meaning Luxon wouldn't have to rely on New Zealand First if that's what's needed to form a government.

    Manji said Luxon should "be strategic".

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/10/election-2023-national-urged-to-do-deal-in-ilam-to-get-the-opportunities-party-into-parliament-avoid-needing-winston-peters.html

    While Luxon has ruled it out, this play by Manji really points out the hollowness of TOPs priorities; none of their 'progressive' policies would be enacted by a potential NACT government.

    • observer 9.1
      4 October 2023 at 9:33 am

      It's a non-story, really. Manji has no chance, of course.

      Bizarre that Newshub last night made it their lead at 6 pm. Yet another case of game-playing ranked above policy. The coverage seems worse than ever this election. All about the "who", not the "what". (And then we're surprised when the "what" emerges, only after we've voted).

      • Barfly 9.1.1
        4 October 2023 at 9:58 am

        IMO The MSM is there to deliver a profit and a RW government – things like information and honesty are at the most 'goal adjacent' and more often aren't even in the building let alone the coverage.

      • Ngungukai 9.1.2
        4 October 2023 at 10:01 am

        The NZ Media are just playing games with the NZ Public analysis of the different parties policies is above their level of intellect, it reminds me of watching Play School as a child. No wonder this cuntry is in the sh*t with the quality of Politicians available and the the level of intellect in the NZ Media.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 9.1.2.1
          4 October 2023 at 11:40 am

          'And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling journalists!'

          Keep 'em honest, as much as is possible in these $$$-mesmerised times.

          Mediawatch: Turning off the news? [9 April 2023]
          “We noticed that there's 14,500 journalists in Finland [popn 5.5 m] – and about 2500 here [popn 5.2 m]. It does actually speak to what you can offer people. I think in New Zealand we're rushing the news. I'm not blaming journalists for that, because that same stuff has to be covered with fewer resources, but you're inevitably going to get thinner coverage,” Dr Treadwell said.

    • weka 9.2
      4 October 2023 at 9:53 am

      good. Hopefully this plays out badly for them now that it's clear.

    • AB 9.3
      4 October 2023 at 11:52 am

      TOP is a right-wing party that rakes some ideas that parts of the left favour (like UBI) and inserts them into a right-wing framing of how the economy works and must work.

  10. Ad 10
    4 October 2023 at 11:05 am

    It may well be that most farmers will be happy to see these regulations go, but I suspect not all of them will.

    This is ACT policy to target for our agricultural economy:

    • Scrapping the Zero Carbon Act and … if farmers in countries who are our biggest trading partners are not paying a price for their methane emissions, neither should New Zealand farmers.
    • A genuine split gas approach … [between methane and CO2],
    • Shifting responsibility for farm plans from Wellington bureaucrats to regional councils, while ensuring a consistent template is used and existing plans remain valid.
    • Making sure people with practical animal handling and farming experience are appointed to the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee (NAWAC).
    • …liberalising GE laws.
    • [R]emoving the cap on the Recognised Seasonal Employer scheme, abolishing labour market tests and wage rules, removing the ‘work to residence’ divide for occupations on the Green List, and bringing back 90-day trials.
    • Getting rid of Three Waters and bring back a local approach to water resources by having local communities develop acceptable standards and rules for nitrates, sedimentation run off, and freshwater quality.
    • Liberalising water storage requirements to increase farmer resilience to climate and seasonal pressures whilst maintaining aquifer health. And … time-based tradable water permits so farmers could trade water allocations …
    • Bringing back live animal exports …

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2310/S00023/six-rural-regulations-first-on-the-chopping-block.htm

    This is the Federated Farmer takeover they've always wanted, back into low-grade low-value, low care exports.

    • Dennis Frank 10.1
      4 October 2023 at 11:11 am

      Classic neolib fudging to prevent anything intelligent happening. No mention of polluter accountability. Evade consequences to demonstrate loyalty to the establishment. Trad left/right jerk-off for mainstreamers.

  11. Dennis Frank 11
    4 October 2023 at 11:24 am

    Check out this Ukrainian nazi situation:

    The standing ovation Canada’s parliament gave last Friday-fortnight to a 98 year-old veteran of the notorious Ukrainian Waffen-SS, a moment that shames the civilized world, has links to the recent railroading of a Radio New Zealand journalist accused of injecting pro-Russian propaganda into Reuters’ news stories.

    Yaroslav Hunka, one of thousands of Ukrainian Nazi collaborators allowed into Canada after WW2, was a guest at the September 25th official parliamentary reception for Ukraine’s President Zelensky, who was in Canada to lobby for more military and financial aid for his war with Russia.

    Introducing the veteran Nazi to a full house, the Speaker of Canada’s Parliament said; “We have in the chamber today a Ukrainian war veteran from the Second World War who fought for Ukrainian independence against the Russians”, going on to call him a Ukrainian hero, a Canadian hero, and to thank him for all his service.”

    As cheers erupted throughout the chamber, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, Zelensky, Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland, Canadian Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Wayne Eyre and the assembled leaders of Canada’s political elite all stood (twice) to applaud the veteran Ukrainian Nazi’s wartime “service”. https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/10/04/reuters-russia-and-radio-new-zealand/

    Author's commentary seems well-written & as a sceptic on the issue I can't fault his stance. Looks like Justin got this wrong.

    • francesca 11.1
      4 October 2023 at 12:17 pm

      Uh oh

      Dennis

      Rookie move to be so even-handed

      Have you not read the comments on TS where this has been discussed?

      The standing ovation is inconsequential because of Holodomor and Russia's war in Ukraine.

      And after the war the Ukrainian nazis were very handy for their hatred of communism, which evened out their slaughter of Jews,Poles, gypsies.

      Politico has come forward with an attempt to wash the sins of the Galizien unit away,there will be more to come

    • Barfly 11.2
      4 October 2023 at 12:19 pm

      The Nazi Party ceased to exist 78 years ago.

      The Nazi Party was the party of German Fascists.

      Putin the Tiny incessantly carps on about mythical Ukranian Nazi's as a form of his dead cat on the table school of reasoning.

      The Wagner PMC's main military strategist was this bloke

      https://aijac.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/utkin.jpeg

      That's a lovely 'lightning bolt ' tattoo – What could it ever be referring to?
      Ooo and is that a German eagle tattoo as well?

      • Francesca 11.2.1
        4 October 2023 at 2:27 pm

        Yes most definitely it is .

        We have those nutters here too.

        What we don't have , and what Russia doesn't have ,is a self avowed white supremacist unit within our military that actively recruits fellow white supremacists internationally .

        https://thesoufancenter.org/intelbrief-the-transnational-network-that-nobody-is-talking-about/

        • Brigid 11.2.1.1
          4 October 2023 at 3:47 pm

          Thank you Francesca for your tenacity.

          I just believe Russiaphobes are not going to cease their Russiaphobia with facts and logic. Thankfully their opinion is of little consequence in the greater scheme of things.

          • Francesca 11.2.1.1.1
            4 October 2023 at 4:45 pm

            Thanks Brigid

            Of course the Russophobia is built in , to the extent that there are no Nazis in Ukraine!I'm staggered by the Nazi apologists coming to the surface.

            • UncookedSelachimorpha 11.2.1.1.1.1
              5 October 2023 at 5:19 am

              The russophobia is built by russia's murderous invasions, tortures, rapes, looting. That is what builds it in.

              Here's an idea – how about they take their military and f*ck off back to russia? Unlike Ukraine, they can leave and return to their own country.

        • Barfly 11.2.1.2
          4 October 2023 at 3:55 pm

          You do realise literally the only 'Russian' military force that could actually achieve anything was Wagner (Soledar and Bakhmut) and that Dmitry Utkin (the bloke in the photo) was the military mind behind Wagner – so bemusingly it seems the best Russuian Military mind was a bald freaky looking guy with a pile of Nazi tattoos.

          Lol

          • Tony 11.2.1.2.1
            4 October 2023 at 8:35 pm

            Buttfly that photo is NOT Utkin, do a little actual research instead of spreading misinformation, similar looking but Utkin ain't the guy in the pic.

  12. Ngungukai 12
    4 October 2023 at 1:01 pm

    We could have a NACT TOP Coalition if National steps aside in Ilam and encourages their voters to vote TOP, will save Luxon having to deal with Winston and NZF ???

  13. Dennis Frank 13
    4 October 2023 at 1:03 pm

    Panic in France due to alien invasion?

    France’s health minister has assured the French public that there’s “no reason for widespread panic” as Paris reports a “widespread” rise in bedbugs… Rousseau conceded that “when you see them around you, when you have bedbugs in your home, it’s a nightmare” but assured listeners that “we haven’t been invaded by bedbugs.”

    The National Institute for the Study and Control of Bedbugs (INELP) told CNN on Monday that the level of bedbug infestation in France is worse than previous years but treatable. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/30/travel/france-bedbugs-paris-intl-hnk/index.html

    “Bedbugs have been increasingly present in France for two or three years now, regularly peaking in the summer. But this year, we’ve gone beyond all other years,” INELP president Marie Effroy said, adding that the jump started “at the end of August, beginning of September.”

    So looks like Gaia's to blame. No wee alien spacecraft detected yet. If you are headed for a holiday there, Outer Mongolia probably a better move…

  14. AB 14
    4 October 2023 at 1:37 pm

    This interview of Naomi Klein by Ash Sarkar is some relief from election silliness. Klein looks at the growth of the far right using a literary device, the doppelganger. Her basic idea is that the right has quite tactically taken ground traditionally belonging to the left (such as opposition to hierarchy, elites and corporate power) and turned it into a malevolent double of it's original self by reflecting it back through a right-wing lens. This has splintered the left and pulled sections of it over to the right. It's not an original idea but an interesting take on an existing one.

  15. ianmac 15
    4 October 2023 at 3:52 pm

    Mark Mitchell is a liar. "Crime is out of control!" he says but when confronted with Stats he just shouts and blusters jus like Standford and Luxon have taught him. Disgusting.

    Stats are interesting too.

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