Open Mike 04/10/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 4th, 2017 - 145 comments
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145 comments on “Open Mike 04/10/2017 ”

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  1. Tony Veitch (not etc) 1
    4 October 2017 at 6:19 am

    In amongst the plethora of lamentations for Tom Petty (who was Tom Petty?) in Daily Review last night, CoroDale slipped in two references to a RNZ broadcast which may have passed unnoticed! The whole is worth listening to, but here’s a couple of extracts:

    “When you’ve got a government that comes out and says, we’ve got to tolerate 8 or 9 percent unemployment or that one third of children in New Zealand live in poverty, when you’ve got a prime minister who then says ‘well, we can’t do anything about that now because we’ll run out of money’, that’s an insidious lie.”

    and

    “The Greens are neo-liberals on bikes and the Labour Party are neoliberal lite. They say ‘I’ll do austerity but I’ll do it fairer’.

    “There’s no such thing as fair austerity when you’ve got a third of your children living in poverty.”

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/201852897/there-s-no-such-thing-as-fair-austerity

    • weka 1.1
      4 October 2017 at 8:57 am

      Does he explain how the GP’s economic plan is austerity, or is he just using the surplus slogan without explanation?

      • mikesh 1.1.1
        4 October 2017 at 9:07 am

        Both Labour and the Greens have committed themselves to some ¨responsible¨ budgeting agreement.

        • SpaceMonkey 1.1.1.1
          4 October 2017 at 9:21 am

          Yep… this is the basis for Bill Mitchell’s statement. And he’s right. Unless Labour and Greens are prepared to tear up their fiscal pledge, it looks like more of the same neo-liberal economics… but with a nicer face.

  2. Carolyn_nth 2
    4 October 2017 at 6:41 am

    On RNZ this morning – 70 companies banned from hiring migrant workers since April – new law focusing on employers breaching employment regulations when hiring migrant workers. The bans last from 6-18 months.

    One of the banned companies is Mainfreight.

    Plus, there aren’t enough inspectors to investigate all the complaints.

    He said that was an exception however, and the lack of inspectors meant businesses were not afraid of getting busted.

    “There are thousands out there who are still looking for justice, but because this department is understaffed they are not getting any justice.”

    Mr Seghal said getting staff levels up to about 150 people should be the Inspectorate’s main priority.

    Link to the list of 70 at the RNZ article.

    • Once was Tim 2.1
      4 October 2017 at 7:52 am

      Unfortunately @Carolyn, it all starts with that Natzi type mindset such that employees should be grateful if an employer deigns to employ them.
      You issue an immigrant a visa that ties him or her to a specific employer. If the employer is good – count yourself lucky.
      You then shift the Labour Inspectorate and Immigration NZ under a business focussed Ministry and completely under-resource them.
      If the employer turns out to be an arsehole, tough luck. If you want to change employer, you’re then faced with INZ application fees, and perhaps the cost of an immigration lawyer – something hard to do if you’re living hand to mouth, underpaid/less than minimum wage – sometimes even having your passport retained, and living in some shithole somewhere.
      It’s actually a form of bondage of employee to employer.
      Then of course the other unintended/(actually probably intended) consequence.
      Why would the unscrupulous employer employ an unemployed Kiwi (who does not have to suffer that form of bondage) when you can exploit the immigrant for all they’re worth and make a tidy (often cash-based) profit?
      It has now been going on for years. And of course if the exploited do get a bit uppity and challenge either the employer, OR the Inspectorate, OR both – you can always make them in breach of their visa conditions and boot them out of the country and get another one.
      It all dovetails in nicely with some of the shoddy private tertiary institutions and labour supply/recruitment/contractor companies – some of whom have cosy little relationships with immigration consultants.

      • cleangreen 2.1.1
        4 October 2017 at 8:50 am

        100% to Once was Tim,

        Government consists of “public servants”; – these who are our ‘public servants’ should firstly be serving the needs and ‘interests’ including aspirations of their employees who are ‘the public’
        Public service’. 2 :a service rendered in the public interest

        So according to the legal requirements of these ‘public servants’ they are legally required to serve the public interests firstly and not their own needs right?

        Here is the proof;

        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/public%20service

        Webster dictonary

        Definition of public service

        1 :the business of supplying a commodity (such as electricity or gas) or service (such as transportation) to any or all members of a community
        2 :a service rendered in the public interest
        3 :governmental employment; especially :civil service

        • Once was Tim 2.1.1.1
          4 October 2017 at 10:59 am

          “Government consists of “public servants”; – these who are our ‘public servants’ should firstly be serving the needs and ‘interests’ including aspirations of their employees who are ‘the public’
          Public service’. 2 :a service rendered in the public interest”

          That’s the theory @ Cleengreen, but it hasn’t been the case since neo-liberalism took hold and was allowed to run rampant. It’s been corporatised into a series of little fiefdoms – the chiefs being ‘CEOs’ ffs! and senior management chiefs who get to choose who best serves their agendas. (Usually good honest frontline Public Servant peons doing there best, but who often operate in fear of their masters – their masters who take credit for the ‘win wins going forward’, but who apportion blame down the heirarchy when things go tits up)
          The ‘Public’ Service as a bizzniss – equipped with all its purchase agreements and KPI’s that (as it can be shown) are regularly abused without consequence.

          At the time of the reforms I think we were promised greater efficiency and effectiveness, accountability, and non-partisan administration – that is improvements to what we once had. Instead – the opposite. You only have to look at the sucking up and arse protecting of Ministers – or even just the record to date in areas such as Health, Education, NZTA, MPI (border incursions for example), MoBIE (shitty steel and suspect buildings, exploitation of workers, etc., etc., etc.). Then of course there’s abuse of OIAs and cronyism. And then there’s the real standouts such as WINZ and CYPS.

          But then back to the exploitation that @Carolyn-nth mentions.
          It’s a “win win” for the exploiters and those engaged in preserving the (so-called public ‘service’) structure that enables it.
          – An unthinking public that has blind faith in others supposedly serving their interests (that romantic notion of an actual Public/Civil Service) can simply see that it’s all these bloody immigrants coming over here taking all our jobs!
          – A Minister – supposedly responsible but who can rely on his Munstry to protect his arse – who now screams ‘low quality immigrant’ in Peter Dutton fashion. Even the fairly reasonable Senior Public Servant (I could name names) who occasionally fronts media and who now has a big mortgage to pay, is likely to succumb to the cool aid – and after all – those ‘low quality immigrants’ are probably used to it.

          After their supping the cool aid for so long – its now all NORMAL!, and why would they seriously want to challenge it all?

          There’s a simple starting point:
          – IF the only way you can run a business profitably by exploiting those economic units (that we’ll put on the spreadsheet, OR the MYOB/Xero equivalent as a COST), then your bizzniss IS NOT VIABLE – (going forward of course). I’ve even personally witnessed Labour Inspectorate managers tell me they know of worker exploitation based prices being charged for lunches and coffee ‘deals’ that aren’t sustainable considering their overheads – such as rent, electricity, etc., and that the only other option in order they break even – LET ALONE amass profit -is through worker exploitation. But then …. they go home to the missus and the kuds, and tomorrow is another day.

          – ELSE if those managers can’t actually challenge the shit they know is happening or the heat in the kitchen, then get the fuck out!

          Then there’s some obvious solutions – AT LEAST as a starting point – unless of course 3rd World humanity is OK in ‘lil ‘ole Nu Zull and now something we’re all supposed to aspire to in this neo-liberal nirvana of the market the market! (Perhaps THIS since we’ve set up the structure to encourage and enable: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/as-chinas-economy-slows-business-cults-prey-on-young-job-seekers/articleshow/60881676.cms),
          OR any other SS Joyce/ACTian view of the future). I hope they’re really confident in the security of their local gated community – well it’s probably not really a community, rather a number of individualists living in close proximity to one another. But then “yeow” as Mister Farrar and Chem Slator would say – the Murrays might get restless.

          STOP bonding employees to employers
          PURGE those employers from the country RATHER than their victims (when they only have residency status)
          STOP the conflicts of interest – those that exist between contractors/PTEs/etc. and immigration officials. (we could go deeper and talk about things like Swamp Kauri PS enablers)
          START resourcing INZ, LI, NZQA properly and take them the fuck away from a Munstry that was founded on promoting/enabling the bizznizz interest over and above the citizen and person as a social being.

  4. Ed 4
    4 October 2017 at 7:21 am

    A close reading of the Herald article ( ignore the headline) gives 4 reasons for the slowing of the housing crisis.

    winter
    bank lending limits
    the election
    China’s crackdown on capital flows

    The most interesting section is this……

    ‘ James Steele, QV Auckland senior consultant, said sales volumes were down to very low levels because demand was halted “by the ability for purchasers to finance property deals.
    Steele said Auckland had continued to flatten to reach what Steele called a stalemate situation. A change would only occur if a significant economic shock destabilised prices by further reducing demand or there was an easing of lending restrictions, he said.’

    Is the banks’ reluctance to lend caused by a realisation of a future ‘significant economic shock’? They do not want to get burnt. That added to ‘China’s crackdown on capital flows’ could see a crash on its way.

    I sense the economy is about to get very bumpy.

    • BM 4.1
      4 October 2017 at 8:14 am

      Perfect time for Lab/Greens/NZ First to take over.

      Good luck Chaps.

      • Stuart Munro 4.1.1
        4 October 2017 at 9:11 am

        Yup – God knows we wouldn’t want that Bill fella anywhere near the wheel – he never had a clue.

      • cleangreen 4.1.2
        4 October 2017 at 9:15 am

        Time for a return to a ‘self sufficient society’ again thank god as NZ is in a prime position to become this better than any other country I know today.

        I have some history of what a country can become when it turned into a self sufficient society while in Rhodesia during the 1970 era PM Ian Smith actually turned that country around by restoring almost everything from cars trucks homes and industry as well as food and electricity sources and water.

        The origional african people got homes built and jobs so it worked, until UK Government forced a deal to turn the government over to a “tyrant’ who still runs a murdering government today under a invested interested ‘corporate’ controlled system.

        All previous successful self sufficient regions/countries have been toppled by corporate interests and their media persuasion.

        Now it is Spain last year it was Venezuela remember this, as what is next?

        • BM 4.1.2.1
          4 October 2017 at 9:22 am

          What’s your definition of a ‘self-sufficient” NZ?

          • cleangreen 4.1.2.1.1
            4 October 2017 at 9:49 am

            Pretty simple question BM I am surprised you dont know the answer.
            self-sufficient

            This refers to single persons as well as countries, so my interest is for our Government consisting of “public servants” to carry out their role to provide our needs and interests as required under legal references to “public servants” to supply one’s own or its own needs without external assistance:

            Of course the excess product can then be used to sell to any exrternal buyer for further financial income.

            Here are the dictonary expanation of self sufficient.

            http://www.dictionary.com/browse/self-sufficient

            ‘The nation grows enough grain to be self-sufficient.’
            See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
            adjective
            1.
            able to supply one’s own or its own needs without external assistance:
            The nation grows enough grain to be self-sufficient.
            2.
            having extreme confidence in one’s own resources, powers, etc.:

            • BM 4.1.2.1.1.1
              4 October 2017 at 9:58 am

              to supply one’s own or its own needs without external assistance

              So we make everything and cancel all our trade agreements?

              • Draco T Bastard …
                4 October 2017 at 10:50 am

                It’s what we used to do back when we had a more egalitarian society with less poverty.

                The idea that we just keep trading more commodities is making us poorer. Of course, that does seem to be what it was designed to do:

                The income gap between rich countries and poor countries is not diminishing. It has been increasing dramatically, and not only during colonialism. Since the 1960s, the income gap between north and south has tripled.

                “There’s something fundamentally wrong and it won’t be changed with a bit of aid here and there,” Hickel says. “We need to fundamentally restructure the global economy and make it fair.”

                Hickel’s central thesis is that there is nothing natural about poverty. His book examines structurally determined behaviour, designed in-fact, to deliver the poverty outcomes we witness around the world.

                That article is about aid but it applies to this thread because the entire financial system is designed to benefit a few at everyone else’s expense and we’re getting poorer because of it.

            • Ed 4.1.2.1.1.2
              4 October 2017 at 10:04 am

              Bm is trolling you….

              • BM …
                4 October 2017 at 10:09 am

                No, I’m not, I’m actually interested to see how a trading nation such as NZ is supposed to survive if it shuts the door and turns its back on the world.

                • Ed …
                  4 October 2017 at 10:10 am

                  Let’s look at how countries like Sweden and Norway operate.

                  • BM …
                    4 October 2017 at 10:14 am

                    Sweden is in the EU, not exactly cut off from the world.

                    Norway is a European free trade association member.
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2%80%93European_Union_relations

                    • Ed …
                      4 October 2017 at 10:17 am

                      Have you seen their tax rates?

                    • BM …
                      4 October 2017 at 10:24 am

                      Tax rates? what’s that got to do with self-sufficiency.

                    • cleangreen …
                      4 October 2017 at 11:03 am

                      BM we can be part of the British Commonweath again without the decietful rules imposed upon us now under some other trade pratices like TPPA and NAFTA. while remain ‘independent’ as we were under the British commonwealth trade system , as we see now clearly those later ones dont work for us thanks.

                      And before you rubbish the idea of ‘self sufficient’ remeber I qualified the use of overproduction of our own surplus products to sell to other countries who wanted it without any trade rules.

                      That way we get our finances to expand our lives and communities without borrowing offshore again.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.1.3
        4 October 2017 at 10:43 am

        Yes it is. The question is more if Labour can understand the lessons that are coming and get rid of the delusional financial system that they implemented all those years ago. To ban foreign ownership and investment which are making us poorer.

      • DH 4.1.4
        4 October 2017 at 11:14 am

        “Perfect time for Lab/Greens/NZ First to take over.”

        I know that’s meant as a sly jab but there’s truth in it too. It is a good time for them to take over. National’s immigration driven economic ‘growth’ has almost reached its zenith and now it’s time for a housing surge to prop up the economy.

        A big house building boom should see Labour through two terms at least I’d think. We’re in more risk of a recession under National.

        • BM 4.1.4.1
          4 October 2017 at 12:41 pm

          The big house building boom under Labour isn’t going to happen until some fairly basic issues are solved

          1) Who’s going to be developing the land
          2) Lack of tradespeople, apprentice builders don’t cut it.
          3)Lack of materials
          4)Lack of building component companies within the construction pipeline, eg: Aluminium joiners, kitchen makers

          • DH 4.1.4.1.1
            4 October 2017 at 2:07 pm

            That’s simplistic rubbish. Houses don’t need many tradespeople to build them and there’s no shortage of materials.

            The land can be developed by the Govt, that’s what they’re there for.

            • BM 4.1.4.1.1.1
              4 October 2017 at 2:39 pm

              That’s simplistic rubbish. Houses don’t need many tradespeople to build them and there’s no shortage of materials.

              I think you’ll find it’s you whose spouting nonsense, homes are complicated and there’s a fuck load of trades involved in the building process both on-site and off.

              The land can be developed by the Govt, that’s what they’re there for.

              Didn’t realise the Govt owned any earth moving gear?

              • Draco T Bastard …
                4 October 2017 at 3:07 pm

                Didn’t realise the Govt owned any earth moving gear?

                They can buy it or, even better, make it.

                • McFlock …
                  4 October 2017 at 3:15 pm

                  We had an entire ministry with earth moving gear and that sort of thing at one stage. Fuckers sold it off. Now tories are all “ohmahgerd, govt doesn’t have bulldozers! You’re silly!”

                  • BM …
                    4 October 2017 at 3:32 pm

                    Yeah, they’re gone like everyone else the government is at the whim of the private sector.

                    Personally, I don’t really like it, but that’s the situation we find ourselves in currently, haven’t read anything about Labour changing anything either

                    Correct me if I’m wrong though

                    • McFlock …
                      4 October 2017 at 3:51 pm

                      Oh, when faced with a rorting private sector and 100k homes to build, the government will either get into the contruction business (like prefabrication factories) or do the same fuckall you’re lot have been up to as the crisis deepens.

                    • BM …
                      4 October 2017 at 3:58 pm

                      So, the plan is to fund a prefabrication factory in Gisborne and freight the houses to Auckland?

                      What happens if no one puts their hand up? has there been any interest shown?

                    • McFlock …
                      4 October 2017 at 4:03 pm

                      lol, you’re only now just catching up with the policies you’ve been shitting on for months?

                      ISTR the local community trust has already bought a mill or something, and the $20mil was based on a decent business case to expand the site into a full prefabrication facility.

                      Oh, and there was already interest. The policy didn’t come out of thin air, it came from the region as part of Labour’s consultation, where they actually listened to what the regions needed. The idea of listening to the people is alien to you as a National shill, of course.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      4 October 2017 at 4:05 pm

                      Yeah, they’re gone like everyone else the government is at the whim of the private sector.

                      The government is never at the whim of the private sector.

                      We now find ourselves in a crisis brought about by shifting governance to the private sector. The only way to correct that is to take it back into the hands of the populace.

                      Personally, I don’t really like it

                      That’d be a lie. you wouldn’t support profit and the private sector the way you do if you didn’t think that’s the way it should be. That’s why you vote National.

              • DH …
                4 October 2017 at 8:06 pm

                Homes are complicated? Where did you get that nonsense from, houses are simpler today than at any time in history.

                They need tradesmen to supervise and oversee a less skilled workforce, they don’t need tradesmen to do every job. Anyone with reasonable hand-eye co-ordination and memory can work on a building site. That’s how the world was built.

                • BM …
                  4 October 2017 at 8:32 pm

                  Homes are complicated? Where did you get that nonsense from, houses are simpler today than at any time in history.

                  What a ridiculous comment. 🙄

                  • DH …
                    4 October 2017 at 9:01 pm

                    Only because it’s showing you up as ignorant.

                    The building industry *wants* more tradespeople. It doesn’t need them, there’s already plenty to go around. Of course they’d want them, it’s much less hassle for the management to hire people who can work unsupervised. But want doesn’t mean need.

                    When there’s more work than tradespeople you turn some of the tradesmen into supervisors and hire unskilled labour. The building industry has worked that way since, well, forever

                    And before you come up with another snide and ignorant comment look at your history. The allied WWI and WWII efforts were won by filling the factories with unskilled labour.

                  • mauī …
                    4 October 2017 at 9:13 pm

                    Leafing through my uncle’s journal of New Zealand Houses from the 1950’s there is barely any difference to what a regular new build looks like today and the building processes are all the same. You could bring back all the tradies from that era onto a new build and they would be fine apart from not knowing how to work a power drill and getting pissed off with most of the regulations.

          • Draco T Bastard 4.1.4.1.2
            4 October 2017 at 3:06 pm

            1. The government
            2. Training
            3. ban export of building materials
            4. Training or, even better, development of automated systems

            The big problem with you RWNJs is that you’re still stuck in the 19th century mindset that’s a proven failure.

            • BM 4.1.4.1.2.1
              4 October 2017 at 3:29 pm

              So the great building revolution will what start in about 10 years time?

              LOL at the banning the export of building materials.

              • Ad …
                4 October 2017 at 3:44 pm

                We’re still waiting for the Great Leap Forward.

                • McFlock …
                  4 October 2017 at 4:00 pm

                  Blinded by the Brighter Future – oh, wait, that’s because of delayed eye surgery…

              • Draco T Bastard …
                4 October 2017 at 4:02 pm

                LOL at the banning the export of building materials.

                Why? Same as when Russia, when they had that drought a few years ago, banned the export of food. They needed it for themselves because they didn’t have enough.

                The profits of the private sector come second to that.

                • BM …
                  4 October 2017 at 4:39 pm

                  Yes, I can see it now

                  Comrade Jacinda will make an appearance on The Peoples National TV Station (RadioNZ) and loudly shout into the camera.

                  “Nyet to the export of building materials from this day forward !!!, citizens who ignore this decree will be sent to the gulags (Dunedin), I Comrade Jacinda have spoken!!.

    • Bearded Git 4.2
      4 October 2017 at 10:01 am

      mmm Auckland house prices crash 0.6 % to an average of $1.04m a house. Some slump.

      The headline should really be “Auckland house prices remain at outrageously high levels despite Chinese finance crackdown”.

      • Ed 4.2.1
        4 October 2017 at 10:04 am

        Interesting that the Chinese have a government that does things……
        They don’t believe in the invisible hand of the all seeing market.
        They also don’t allow foreigners to buy land or property in their country.
        Funny, that – having a government that protects the sovereignty of the nation.

        • cleangreen 4.2.1.1
          4 October 2017 at 11:11 am

          Yes Ed if the chinese dont let us buy houses in their country we shouldn’t let them buy in ours should we?

          This is how a free trade system works???

          No thanks!!!!! we should get out now.

  5. Ed 5
    4 October 2017 at 7:34 am

    Jarrod Gilbert’s take down of Joyce and English is worth a thread of its own.
    I’m sure others have spotted it.

    ‘I write this one for all of the morons out there.
    The fools, the buffoons, the vapid oxygen thieves who are the enemies of reason, whose foolishness is only matched by their self-righteousness, whose understanding of key issues is inversely proportional to the loudness with which they speak. Gather around my enemies, I wish to have a word.
    I need to talk about political tribalism, this phenomenon that so often mocks the principles that uphold our democracy while chipping away at its foundations……

    …..Whether of not Joyce set out to cause mischief, or he simply misread the books and embarrassment and pigheadedness meant he was unable to back down (the latter theory I favour), we’re all aware that a swath of leading economists came out and debunked what he said.
    What did Joyce do? Deny, deny, attack, deny, deny. And, of course, many of his people defended it, made excuses, or misrepresented the evidence.
    All good people should have called that nonsense out in unison.
    To the tribalists who didn’t I ask this: if Labour had made the same accusation against National and not a single economist supported it, would you have reacted the same way?
    No. Of course not. And that’s what defines you as a moron.
    In fact, looking at any issue and asking how you would react if the other side did it is a handy test we should all employ. Even when we claim neutrality such a test often teases out our unconscious biases……..

    ……..What ugliness awaits us now that this brazen low has been established? Where is our ambition for a democracy that exists on open debate and the exchange of ideas?
    Wherever our allegiances fall we must not allow ourselves to be the foolish. The integrity of our system must stand before our desire for our team to win. Let us be a country that exhibits the best in politics and doesn’t embrace the very worst.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11929095

    • Wayne 5.1
      4 October 2017 at 8:34 am

      Gilbert = sore loser. It is just his opinion, though no doubt loved by Standardnistas.

      The figures Labour presented did add up, but only if there was no new spending (other than heath and education) in 2019 and 2020. Having no provision for new spending in the proposed 2019 and 2020 budgets was not credible. For instance National provides $1.5 billion unallocated expenditure in each of the out years.

      The failure to provide additional spending meant there was a wide open hole for National to exploit, especially when the argument is made by the very people with the most real world experience of how government budgets are made up.

      So for instance adding back $2 billion new spending in each of these years adds up to $6 billion, since you have to baseline the $2 billion from 2019. I would say for Labour $2 billion would be light. The $11 billion figure was based on $3.7 billion new spending in each year.

      There are hundreds of thousands of voters with much better accounting and economic knowledge than Gilbert who could easily see the logic of Joyce and English’s arguments.

      • RC 5.1.1
        4 October 2017 at 8:41 am

        “The figures Labour presented did add up” Then we are in agreement and the National Party were lying like a flat fish. No need for a further four paragraphs twisting words like a column of smoke. Two ticks NZF here i hope Winnie goes with the Greens and Labour you lot are nothing but liars.

      • Ed 5.1.2
        4 October 2017 at 8:41 am

        So you support Joyce’s lies?
        Thought you were better than that.

        • tc 5.1.2.1
          4 October 2017 at 9:23 am

          Those sinecures (Law commission etc) don’t get handed out for honesty Ed.

        • Wayne 5.1.2.2
          4 October 2017 at 9:24 am

          They were not lies, as I have explained.

          • Anne 5.1.2.2.1
            4 October 2017 at 9:38 am

            Bullshit and jellybeans. They were lies.

            Attempting to spin them into something else only demeans you further…

            It is noticeable that when Nats start feeling the pressure, the nasty streak which is present in every one of them rises to the surface for all to see.

            • marty mars 5.1.2.2.1.1
              4 October 2017 at 9:43 am

              Yep Wayne’s big hole revelation is disingenous in the extreme. The rotten apple doesn’t fall far from the rotten tree. Rewriting history is just par for the course. At least he’s stopped blathering on about the greens saving the gnats – I’m thankful for small mercies.

          • Ed 5.1.2.2.2
            4 October 2017 at 9:44 am

            Dear, dear.
            How the mighty have fallen….

          • tc 5.1.2.2.3
            4 October 2017 at 9:54 am

            You are reminding me of an industry gag about Microsoft Wayne who like to exercise their market share in lieu of customer centric behaviour.

            How many MS engineers does it take to change a lightbulb ?

            None, define darkness as a new standard.

          • red-blooded 5.1.2.2.4
            4 October 2017 at 10:19 am

            Actually, Wayne, when you said “The figures Labour presented did add up” you were admitting that Joyce told lies. He was very specific about the lines of expenditure that he claimed weren’t being accounted for and therefore did not add up. If he wasn’t lying deliberately at first (and was simply incompetent), then his and English’s shifting versions of this smear over time (morphing over time into your – false – claim that there was no allowance for new spending in 2019 and 2020 other than health and education) and refusal to back away from the “hole” idea was definitely a lie. As for your claim that this allegation came from the people who know the process best, I’d say Michael Cullen knows a thing or two about budgets, wouldn’t you?

          • Draco T Bastard 5.1.2.2.6
            4 October 2017 at 3:53 pm

            They were lies as has been explained to you.

            But you’ll keep playing the spin because of your sociopathic need for control of everybody else.

      • marty mars 5.1.3
        4 October 2017 at 8:45 am

        Fake news spin for fakery. Scum tactics to win are still scum tactics and you must be so proud, beaming with pride, at the result. Legacy and honour builder FAIL.

      • Psycho Milt 5.1.4
        4 October 2017 at 9:03 am

        Gilbert = sore loser.

        What “loser?” The outcome of the election isn’t known yet. The fact the Nats think they “won” the election when they’re no more able to form a government than anyone else is a manifestation of Tory born-to-rule mentality – it has comedy value only.

        • Brigid 5.1.4.1
          4 October 2017 at 3:28 pm

          And that very first sentence Wayne, defines you.
          And around about there, with that first sentence, your credibility and argument fall
          flat.

      • Incognito 5.1.5
        4 October 2017 at 9:10 am

        Hi Wayne,

        I’d like to draw your attention to the following if you don’t mind. It was towards the end and you may have missed it:

        Where is our ambition for a democracy that exists on open debate and the exchange of ideas? Wherever our allegiances fall we must not allow ourselves to be the foolish. The integrity of our system must stand before our desire for our team to win. Let us be a country that exhibits the best in politics and doesn’t embrace the very worst.

        It seems to me that Gilbert is arguing that there is indeed a “loser” but it is not him; it is all of us …

      • Andre 5.1.6
        4 October 2017 at 9:15 am

        Thank you Wayne, for so thoroughly illustrating exactly what Gilbert was talking about.

      • Stuart Munro 5.1.7
        4 October 2017 at 9:18 am

        ” hundreds of thousands of voters with much better accounting and economic knowledge”

        No doubt you mean the menkurt ideologues who thrust your worthless, dishonest, and above anti-democratic regime upon us.

        Your time is done, reptilian, crawl back to the swamp and make fossils.

      • Pete 5.1.8
        4 October 2017 at 9:43 am

        Hundreds of thousands of voters with much better accounting and economic knowledge than Gilbert and the many, many experts who rubbished Joyce and English?

        Those whose superior financial intellect saw them vote for Joyce and English
        are probably still partying for the Argentina win over All Blacks last weekend.

        • Ed 5.1.8.1
          4 October 2017 at 9:46 am

          By mentioning the All Blacks as a counter, you show yourself to be the type of moron to whom Gilbert’s address was directed towards.

      • cleangreen 5.1.9
        4 October 2017 at 10:24 am

        Yawn — yeah wayne? === nah nah nah!!!!

        You are a very very very sore loser!!

        You sound angry.

        Did your boyfriend leave you?

        • BM 5.1.9.1
          4 October 2017 at 10:28 am

          Did your boyfriend leave you

          Seriously? Homophobic slurs on The Standard, are you trying to Darwin yourself?

          • cleangreen 5.1.9.1.1
            4 October 2017 at 11:17 am

            Youre a ‘mate’ (I call a boyfriend) of Steven Joyce are you not?

            So are you implying something else please explain yourself, as I have had you denigrate me several times before now.

            As an unwell person (as explained recently) am so over your insinuations.

            Grow up, or run back to your National Party bunker will you!!!!!

            • marty mars 5.1.9.1.1.1
              4 October 2017 at 11:22 am

              Bm is very careful around these things unless he’s denigrating his own people then he doesn’t give a shit.

            • Punk Is Bread 5.1.9.1.1.2
              4 October 2017 at 11:26 am

              I think BM has set himself up as the lefts conscience, well done BM, the troll that trawls, he/she probably reads these comments more closely than the rest of us, to correct the groupthink, meanwhile defending Nationals blatant lying, lovely, just lovely.

              • red-blooded …
                4 October 2017 at 11:37 am

                I also think it’s interesting that BM assumes that it’s a bad thing to have a boyfriend, and that any statement with an inbuilt assumption that a person might have one must therefore be a homophobic slur.

          • Robert Guyton 5.1.9.1.2
            4 October 2017 at 11:39 am

            How is using ‘boyfriend’ homophobic?
            I’d have thought “homophilic” better – is that right?
            Edit: what red-blooded said, above.

      • Reality 5.1.10
        4 October 2017 at 10:34 am

        Wayne, Joyce’s failed academic record and English’s shifty and shifting answers on the Todd Barclay affair, does not make for confidence in their abilities. In other words, flexible integrity or lack of it. What they do have is ability to bluster, twist, distort ….. And through handing out cosy jobs for the boys they can wheel out people like yourself and other past their use by types to make it seem there is a groundswell of support for Greens to hold hands with National, despite the years and years of insults thrown at them.

        Whatever the outcome, Jacinda and her team are behaving impeccably in contrast.

        • Tautoko Mangō Mata 5.1.10.2
          4 October 2017 at 12:20 pm

          @Wayne: I accept that you have managed to create a justification for your belief in the invisible black hole that wasn’t evident to Cameron Bagrie, Ganesh Nana, Dr Vernon Small, Keith Ng, Brian Fallow, Bernard Hickey or Shamubeel Eaqub. I was impressed by the position that you took supporting an inquiry into Afghanistan civilian deaths. Therefore, why do I find it hard to understand how you can continue to support and defend a government that has continually behaved in an underhand way, that I would not have thought that you would condone.

      • Trey 5.1.11
        4 October 2017 at 11:59 am

        Jeeez Wayne,
        You should have let Stephen and Bill know that you believed their BILLSHIT about the 11 billion dollar hole that way when they were asked to provide one person that backed up what they said……..just one person…..even a taxi driver…. they could have confidently said well actually Wayne believes us and everything would have been sweet as. As it weas they couldnt name one person bbecause it was a lie.
        By the way, typical Nat ploy by you, play the man (Jarrod Gilbert) not the ball as it was not him that said the hole didn’t exist he was merely reporting on what leading NZ economists had said. What he was saying is how sad it is that people are so indoctrinated into their own political beliefs that they refuse to see the truth in front of them.

    • ianmac 5.2
      4 October 2017 at 9:17 am

      Ed: “if Labour had made the same accusation against National and not a single economist supported it, would you have reacted the same way?
      No. Of course not.”
      Remember the relentless year long attack from National/Act on whether NZF had received a donation from Glenn or not? NO. Even a Privileges Committee “trial.”
      And what happens to Joyce, Key, English much more serious lies? Nothing but support from the Media.

      • cleangreen 5.2.1
        4 October 2017 at 10:28 am

        100% ianmac; – brillance there. I vividly remember this, and was the reason I now suppoort NZF.

        “Remember the relentless year long attack from National/Act on whether NZF had received a donation from Glenn or not?”

    • mikesh 5.3
      4 October 2017 at 9:20 am

      Actually, National supporters, including the tribalists, would consider the idea that they should vote for some other party, simply because Joyce made a boo boo, downright silly.

      • red-blooded 5.3.1
        4 October 2017 at 10:26 am

        Don’t minimise this, mikesh – Joyce didn’t “make a boohoo” – he and his PM deliberately lied and misled their supporters. This was a clear, demonstrated example – one that even the most committed tribalist should be able to acknowledge. Given that, and the scale of the lie, how is anyone meant to believe that this was the only lie? Politics is about trust – are these people trustworthy?

        Plus, let’s remember that it wasn’t only Nat tribalists who were being lied to – the aim was to influence swinging voters, and all the evidence suggests that they succeeded in this aim. That makes this a very significant lie.

        • mikesh 5.3.1.1
          5 October 2017 at 11:59 am

          Whatever. National party supporters would still consider it silly to let it influence their vote.

          • red-blooded 5.3.1.1.1
            5 October 2017 at 12:21 pm

            “Whatever.”
            So, you now concede that it was a lie, but hey – what does truth matter when decisions are being made about our nation’s future?

            “National party supporters would still consider it silly to let it influence their vote.”
            Did you fail to read or comprehend the final paragraph of my comment, mikesh? The lie wasn’t targeted at Nat supporters (they were always going to overlook the dirty politics and stay with their team, just as they have in the past) – it was aimed at swinging voters. The evidence of the polls before and after the lie and its constant repetition suggest that it had an effect on them. It didn’t have to be a big effect in order to make a difference in this very tight race.

  6. Anne 6
    4 October 2017 at 8:17 am

    I see the Herald has wheeled out another opinion piece denigrating Peters and extolling the worth of a Nat/Greens coalition. This time its Michael Cox.

    Michael Cox who? I hear you say. He was an insignificant Nat MP in the 1980s. Cox has gone even further back in time to dredge up another politician to link Peters to – Benjamin Disraeli.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/headlines.cfm?c_id=280

    • cleangreen 6.1
      4 October 2017 at 10:34 am

      National “deep dark state operations” are dredging every past of politicians whom pose a threat to their lib/con sellout policy to denigrate them.

      Best we get our coalition of Labour/green/NZF to throw them out pronto.!!!!!!!!

  7. garibaldi 7
    4 October 2017 at 9:12 am

    The authorities in Vegas are still trying to ascertain the motive of yet another mass killing. Well as our ” dear friend” Richard Prebble once opined… I’ve been thinking.
    I’m a minor Dixie Chick fan because of their song “I’m not ready to make nice” ,which was penned by Natalie Main (lead singer) over what happened to the band after they commented at a concert in London that they were embarrassed that the President (G W Bush) came from Texas, which they did too. A documentary “Shut up and sing” was made about the severe antagonism and hatred the group then suffered. Death threats etc…. it was serious stuff for what was only an aside at a concert in a foreign land. The Country and Western Southern base went totally ballistic in their hatred for the Dixie Chicks…….
    Maybe Paddock didn’t like something the group featuring at the concert in Vegas had said or sung, so he flipped and decided to do something about it and set about it thoroughly. Paddock was obviously a devout Republican as 99% of that area are (and all the people investigating him there would be too ) and in his rabid state decided that anyone who listens to that music is a communist and should die.
    I could be totally wrong.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc) 7.1
      4 October 2017 at 9:22 am

      I’m being frivolous, which is inexcusable on such a serious subject as the mass killing of innocent people – but perhaps the killer just didn’t like country and western music!

      • Anne 7.1.1
        4 October 2017 at 9:26 am

        … and saw it as part of a Communist plot to take over America.

        They’re crazy enough to believe anything over there.

      • Andre 7.1.2
        4 October 2017 at 9:28 am

        A bunch of articles I’ve read have said apparently he was a fan of country music.

        The scariest suggested motive I’ve seen yet is that maybe he just wanted to set a record with his 15 minutes of fame.

        • marty mars 7.1.2.1
          4 October 2017 at 9:38 am

          Yep it is plausible that he wanted a record. As less and less is found, that scenario is more likely imo.

        • bwaghorn 7.1.2.2
          4 October 2017 at 2:46 pm

          that’s all most of these pieces of shit want , their 15 minutes , there name should never be made public and their corpses should be ground and feed to the pigs .
          in saying that the us is getting what it votes for so i lose no sleep over it.

      • Bearded Git 7.1.3
        4 October 2017 at 9:53 am

        39,000 firearm murders in Honduras 2008-2015… why is it that 60 American deaths are headline news?

        • marty mars 7.1.3.1
          4 October 2017 at 10:01 am

          Because 39000 / 7 / 365 = 15 not 60.

          • Andre 7.1.3.1.1
            4 October 2017 at 10:08 am

            Central and South America really do have a worse problem with gun violence than the US. Along with a lot of southern Africa, some of the middle east and some of Asia. Check out the graphic at the bottom of this article.

            http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.html

            Just for perspective, Honduras’ population is around 9 million, US around 320 million.

            • marty mars 7.1.3.1.1.1
              4 October 2017 at 10:20 am

              Thanks I suppose I also thought it was an apple orange scenario in that the total gun deaths in the us over the same period would be an apt comparison.

          • Bearded Git 7.1.3.1.2
            4 October 2017 at 12:50 pm

            Your maths leave a little to desire….there are about 10,000 firearm murders in USA each year, that is 0.003% of the population.

            In Honduras yearly murders average 5,500 each year, that is 0.061% of the population. That is a rate TWENTY TIMES that in the USA….I repeat why are 60 American deaths headlines?

            The point being you could refer to Guatemala or Brazil or El Salvador etc etc and make the same point.

            • marty mars 7.1.3.1.2.1
              4 October 2017 at 12:56 pm

              The 15 is related to the 60

              And the 60 happened in one place at about the same time by a murderer who apparently wanted to set a hideous record and did.

              THAT is why it is a headline.

              I get your point and agree to a point.

            • KJT 7.1.3.1.2.2
              4 October 2017 at 6:50 pm

              Note: All are “Banana Republics”, with RWNJ Governments installed by the CIA.

        • Andre 7.1.3.2
          4 October 2017 at 10:11 am

          Because it’s much more likely the readers of our local media will have some sort of connection with the victims and/or where it happened and/or a feeling of “it could have been me” when it happens it the US compared to when it happens in Honduras.

    • happynz 7.2
      4 October 2017 at 4:12 pm

      Paddock was obviously a devout Republican as 99% of that area are (and all the people investigating him there would be too ) and in his rabid state decided that anyone who listens to that music is a communist and should die.

      Oh kee-rist…the ignorance burns…it just goes to show that nowhere is immune from someone making ludicrous claims.

      The Nevada secretary of state’s office on Friday reported there are 1,464,819 active registered voters statewide who are eligible to participate in the Nov. 8 general election.
      There are 577,679 Democrats, 488,861 Republicans and 304,528 nonpartisans. The rest are minor- party registered voters.
      Democrats represent 39.4 percent of the total active registered voters, Republicans 33.4 percent and nonpartisans 20.8 percent.

      LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL
      https://www.reviewjournal.com/uncategorized/registered-democratic-voters-outnumber-republicans-by-nearly-90k-in-nevada/

      Las Vegas leans Democratic (for what’s that worth, I don’t know), but residents are not 99% Republican.

  8. Ed 8
    4 October 2017 at 9:50 am

    How often do you read an article with the words ‘ since the 1980s’?
    More precise reporting would say ‘since the advent of neoliberalism.’

    ‘Moerewa, near Kaikohe, has embarked on a makeover that it hopes will continue under whatever new government is formed this month.
    The town was once a thriving community where nearly everyone had a job at the freezing works or dairy factory.
    But since the 1980s it has gone downhill, with more than 80 percent of its people on a benefit or retired.’

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/340805/makeover-for-northland-town

    • tc 8.1
      4 October 2017 at 9:57 am

      How about all the empty local Dairy factories, drove past about 10 in the Naki recently.

      Imagine the potential in those sites if we break the shackles of neo liberal market driven behaviour and moved to a sustainable produce/manufacture/distribute locally model.

      • Ed 8.1.1
        4 October 2017 at 10:03 am

        There do appear a lot for sale at the moment.
        Wonder if that is more land being bought up by foreigners?

        This book is very interesting on the subject.

        The Land Grabbers – The New Fight over Who Owns the Earth
        by Fred Pearce

        ‘An unprecedented land grab is taking place around the world. Fearing future food shortages or eager to profit from them, the world’s wealthiest and most acquisitive countries, corporations, and individuals have been buying and leasing vast tracts of land around the world. ‘

        http://www.beacon.org/The-Land-Grabbers-P887.aspx
        http://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2012/10/05/who-owns-earth-review-fred-pearces-land-grabbers

      • cleangreen 8.1.2
        4 October 2017 at 10:36 am

        Perfect plan tc we need local industry now to work more effeciently and produce local jobs and secure families.

        I live 80kms north of gisborne and daily see a flood of milk tankers going south 300+ kms to Palmerston north factories and then they are shiped north again as export products 280 kms to Port of Napier.

        What a waste of transportation and pollution along the way and waste of fuel!!!!!!!

        • tc 8.1.2.1
          4 October 2017 at 12:03 pm

          Imagine a kick started textile/paper industry based on Flax and Hemp.

          One is a return to something we used to do, the other a booming 21st century market we could get into with a progressive attitude.

          Both are natural products suited to our climate with one already a native species.

          • marty mars 8.1.2.1.1
            4 October 2017 at 12:20 pm

            + 100

            got a mate – did some hemp growing – great plant so many uses just so many, and the flax is so good too. Some great areas for growing harakeke, areas not drained for cowland. I see these two resources/crops/plants as being ESSENTIAL for future sustainability and survivability.

          • Robert Guyton 8.1.2.1.2
            4 October 2017 at 1:50 pm

            Like all good things, greenies will have been promoting it for a decade or three before it’s taken up by the mainstream – as someone here often says, “follow the hippies”.

      • marty mars 8.1.3
        4 October 2017 at 11:16 am

        Yep there are lots of places where great things could be started. Neo liberalism has a lot to answer for. Going small and local and community orientated are the way to roll back the neo liberal 1980s experiment.

    • Bill 8.2
      4 October 2017 at 11:07 am

      🙂 “But since the return of Liberalism in the 1980s…”

      “since the advent of neoliberalism” suggest something new popped up. But nothing new popped up. You can read Dickens and get a very good understanding of what kind of society gets created by Liberalism/neo-liberalism, but won’t make the connection if you think the 80s was all about something that had never been tried before – tried and then rejected some time around the 30s/40s by “the west” but still foisted on “the global south” by “the west” by way of “structural adjustment programmes (SAPs)

  9. Draco T Bastard 9
    4 October 2017 at 11:11 am

    Why you shouldn’t idolise rappers:

    Last week, rapper B.o.B made headlines after setting up a GoFundMe page to finance a rather bizarre project; sending a satellite into space to prove that the Earth is flat. His plans involve sending a satellite “as far into space as possible” to take a photo of the Earth, which he believes will look like a map.

    Or give them money.

    • marty mars 9.1
      4 October 2017 at 3:41 pm

      Why you shouldn’t idolise this rapper or give him money – I think you mean.

      It is illogical to take one swallow and assume it is summer.

  10. Cinny 10
    4 October 2017 at 11:21 am

    Caught up with an angry voter, angry because they now want to change their vote, angry because they have only recently realised they’ve been lied to and misled by national. They can’t change their vote, but they said they are never voting for national again. They are also very embarrassed that they believed the tax lies flowing from the mouths of national mps during the election and perpetuated by a media who gave it airplay again and again and again.

    Ethics in schools please, at least the misinformed voter would have been more informed by their kids if civics was being taught in schools.

    Meanwhile… 3 more sleeps until Saturday 😀 Bring on the special vote count 😀

    • Ed 10.1
      4 October 2017 at 3:50 pm

      More fool them for believing the lie.
      If they haven’t worked National out yet…….

      • Anne 10.1.1
        4 October 2017 at 4:06 pm

        100% agree.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.2
        4 October 2017 at 4:33 pm

        It’s difficult to figure something out correctly when all the information available is the lies.

        • Ed 10.1.2.1
          4 October 2017 at 4:37 pm

          So how come you and I can see the lies?

          • Cinny 10.1.2.1.1
            4 October 2017 at 5:32 pm

            Because we are all political junkies, well versed in DP the media etc etc. Some people believe everything the pm says, he’s the pm he must be telling the truth.

            But Bill Ralston said…… but Bill Ralston writes bill englishes speeches.. etc etc.

            But the soundbites… and the facebook… if you are not versed in media manipulation then you’ll probably swallow it hook line and sinker.

            But mum and dad said…… sorry huni mum and dad are being manipulated by soundbites and fake news as well

            It’s amazing how much trust and faith some put in the media or people in power, they neglect to realise that some of those people are only manipulating others for their own gains.

            As well as ethics in schools can we please have a 24hr kiwi tv channel, as well giving parental, practical, mental health, lifestyle and social advice and info, chuck in some educational documentaries too, please and thank you.

  11. Eco maori 11
    4 October 2017 at 11:34 am

    I no that there are some who will try and pin any bull shit on me because that is there mentality to fuck me up there are many story’s that I have not told about my interaction with these people and these stories would do more damage to there image and they would not give a shit because they can hide in plain clothes. and unmarked cars while OUR people in uniforms take the heat This is the last I commenting on this subject .The pepper is doing a better job than I thought probably got a few more miles in the old truck.

  12. rawshark-yeshe 12
    4 October 2017 at 12:54 pm

    Baby cheeses. Just published …. corruption within corruption …. part of ACC sold off without tender to staff …. so much is wrong with this .. Sir Owen Woodhouse must be turning in his grave …

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/10/03/51308/questions-continue-over-acc-disputes-entity

  13. joe90 13
    4 October 2017 at 1:48 pm

    I guess Pence and his Xtian Taliban are running the shop.

    The US is one of just 13 countries to have voted against a United Nations resolution condemning the death penalty for having gay sex.

    Although the vote passed, America joined countries such as China, Iraq and Saudi Arabia in opposing the move.

    The Human Rights Council resolution condemned the “imposition of the death penalty as a sanction for specific forms of conduct, such as apostasy, blasphemy, adultery and consensual same-sex relations”.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-gay-sex-death-penalty-un-same-sex-relations-human-rights-council-saudi-arabia-iraq-nikki-haley-a7980981.html

  14. Ed 14
    4 October 2017 at 2:13 pm

    This article and research paper is worth a thread its own right.

    ‘Most river pollution comes from streams that don’t need fencing, research shows

    Most of New Zealand’s river pollution comes from streams that would be exempt from waterway fencing rules, new research shows.

    It calls into question the effectiveness of current efforts, which would become law under legislation proposed by the National Government.
    A paper published by the American Journal of Environmental Quality found that 77 per cent of contaminants in New Zealand’s rivers came from smaller waterways exempt from proposed fencing rules.
    The paper, by Ag Research scientist Dr Richard McDowell as part of the Our Land and Water National Science Challenge, found that most pollution does not come from those waterways.
    It modelled the contaminant load for over half a million stream segments around the country, which were divided into those that would need to be fenced and those that would not.
    It determined 77 per cent of the pollution load nationwide came from streams that would not require fencing.
    The contribution of individual pollutants from smaller streams ranged from 73 per cent of total nitrogen to 84 per cent of dissolved reactive phosphorus.
    It was particularly evident in agriculturally-productive regions such as Canterbury, Southland, Nelson and Hawkes Bay, which “exhibited large contaminant loads from exempt catchments”, the research said.’

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/97528658/most-river-pollution-comes-from-streams-that-dont-need-fencing-research-shows

    https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/jeq/articles/46/5/1038

    • Ed 14.1
      4 October 2017 at 4:25 pm

      Dairy New Zealand.

      An evil industry.
      A killing machine.
      An immoral operation.

      And they know that if people really found out how their industry operates, it would be all over.

      ‘Dairy farmers jumpy over media attention at calving time
      Springtime, and the paranoia is rising – at least among dairy farmers.
      Chastened by scrapes with animal rights groups and the media in recent years, farmers are on high alert for cameras lurking behind cowsheds or drones whirring in the skies.
      In calving season images of distressed or abused bobby calves are the last thing the industry needs.’

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/97530353/dairy-farmers-jumpy-over-media-attention-at-calving-time

  15. adam 15
    4 October 2017 at 3:03 pm

    Well said Chris Trotter, well said.

    https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2017/10/the-difference-between-jeremy-and.html

    Funny, myself and others got roundly criticized for pointing this out before the election, I’m guessing the Blairite hacks will carry on with those attacks.

    • Ad 15.1
      4 October 2017 at 3:42 pm

      Skinner’s key policy points were that he wanted :
      – Free education
      – Free healthcare
      – Scrapping zero-hour contracts
      – A return to high unionism

      So, just on the policy front Labour’s policies going into the election covered all of that, as Trotter is well aware.

      Skinner also noted clearly that the scale of intervention required was due to the catastrophic destruction and population displacement of World War 2. We don’t have that scale of crisis.

      Skinner was also clear to praise the new Labour leader for his electoral success. If only Trotter could pull himself out of his sickly nostalgia and do the same. It’s also noteworthy that Jacinda and her predecessor united the party in policy and personality – unlike Corbyn who has gone through shadow Cabinets like scrunched up newspaper on an engineering shop floor.

      Finally on the results front whee all of this matters, Ardern is even closer to achieving actual government than Corbyn. And in far shorter a time than Corbyn.

      On the policy front, the historical context front, the leadership front, and on the results front, New Zealand’s own Labour Party is at least as advanced as UK Labour if not moreso.

      • Ed 15.1.1
        4 October 2017 at 4:04 pm

        Skinner is not scared of big business.
        NZ Labour is.

        • Ad 15.1.1.1
          4 October 2017 at 4:28 pm

          Skinner’s career was protected by massive union membership and total state control of the coalmines, and never even got close to having to make Cabinet., so he hasn’t had to face business at all.

          His best quality was that he had a great turn of phrase and taught Blair most of his rhetorical skills.

          Jacinda gave a better speech at the Auckland Town Hall at the launch.

      • Draco T Bastard 15.1.2
        4 October 2017 at 6:36 pm

        Skinner also noted clearly that the scale of intervention required was due to the catastrophic destruction and population displacement of World War 2. We don’t have that scale of crisis.

        I’d say we do:

        Under funded health
        Under funded police
        Housing crisis
        Climate Change (this one alone more than meets the criteria – it’s not our ‘nuclear-free issue of a generation’ but ‘the WWI & II at the same bloody time’ issue of generations.)

        It’s also noteworthy that Jacinda and her predecessor united the party in policy and personality – unlike Corbyn who has gone through shadow Cabinets like scrunched up newspaper on an engineering shop floor.

        It’s interesting to note that the problem, in both places, seems to be a bunch of self-righteous politicians not listening to the party members and, in fact, telling them that they’re wrong.

        I’d say that Corbyn is doing a slightly better job of uniting UK Labour because he’s getting rid of the white-anters.

        • Ad 15.1.2.1
          4 October 2017 at 7:13 pm

          If you want to compare World War Two to the underfunding of NZ services, go right ahead. Ardern has it pretty well covered on climate change, and will continue to do so even if she cannot lead a government this time.

          Don’t bother trying to measure self-righteousness in politicians – the really good ones just keep the rhetorical arm-waving in check.

          The white-anting of New Zealand Labour’s caucus finished since Little started as leader. As a result Labour’s MPs have presented a fully united front since that time. Corbyn’s Labour is still unstable by comparison.

          • Draco T Bastard 15.1.2.1.1
            4 October 2017 at 7:28 pm

            If you want to compare World War Two to the underfunding of NZ services, go right ahead.

            I didn’t.

            Ardern has it pretty well covered on climate change,

            Not really. Still tied to ‘the market’ delivering rather than the government giving full direction.

            The white-anting of New Zealand Labour’s caucus finished since Little started as leader. As a result Labour’s MPs have presented a fully united front since that time.

            I do seem to recall a few instances here and there. I also note that NZ Labour now has a leader chosen by the caucus rather than the members.

            http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/02/labour-mp-poto-williams-defied-leader-to-speak-out-against-willie-jackson.html

            Corbyn’s Labour is still unstable by comparison.

            From what I’m seeing UK Labour is quite stable – their MPs aren’t. Same as what happened to Cunliffe really.

  16. Ed 16
    4 October 2017 at 4:03 pm

    Katherine Rich Is a nasty piece of work, who will do anything to shill for big sugar.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/10/04/51558/whaleoil-ex-mp-pr-man-to-face-jury-trial

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