Open mike 05/01/2020

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, January 5th, 2020 - 114 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

114 comments on “Open mike 05/01/2020 ”

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  1. aom 1
    5 January 2020 at 8:03 am

    Typically, two of Parliament's most notable thugs, one of whom has also been alleged to be a war criminal, are called on to pontificate on MM Kingdom's change initiative: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/117925405/newage-gangsters-business-prospects-volunteer-work-and-giving-up-drugs. No doubt, the usual tough on crime brigade will kick the gang's positive intentions into the fire's of hell – the same as in the past when there have been rays of hope for some of societies disaffected whose only 'familial' security was in gangs, often after prolonged State abuse as children.

    • tc 1.1
      5 January 2020 at 8:58 am

      Another example of the fear driven messaging the CA scandal showed us all that exists in the global media now across the globe.

      This kicks it off and then Social media riffs on the divides in the background. Rent a right wing ranters mitchell and Jones duely oblige showing the humanity one expects from a couple of mercenary troughers.

      Leadership opportunity for JA here. Go one better than chch massacre and outlaw this shite while you can or condemm godzone to being another outpost of the global messaging/maniplualtion industry.

    • Peter 1.2
      5 January 2020 at 8:59 am

      Mark Mitchell said, "They enjoy the life style; they enjoy intimidating people, they enjoy not having to work hard to earn lots of cash, and they love the status that it gives them."

      Give the man a mirror and let him discuss which parts of that apply to him.

      • Psycho Milt 1.2.1
        5 January 2020 at 9:08 am

        Lol! But he'd genuinely have no idea what you meant. I met some civilian contractors during the Iraq War and self-reflection was very much not among their strong points…

    • Puckish Rogue 1.3
      5 January 2020 at 10:22 am

      " gang's positive intentions"

      Yeah and I have a bridge to sell you

    • James 1.4
      5 January 2020 at 11:03 am

      one of whom has also been alleged to be a war criminal

      oh please please lefties – please use that for the election year social media’s.

      you don’t sound like tin foil hat wearing morons at all.

      • joe90 1.4.1
        5 January 2020 at 11:28 am

        If he engaged with Iraqi militia who, because of their resistance to invaders, could be considered part of a national liberation movement, he could well be considered a war criminal.

        since 1968 the United Nations General Assembly has adopted a firm position stating that the practice of employing mercenaries against national liberation movements is a criminal act

        http://archive.li/Yj5lx#selection-635.49-647.39

        • James 1.4.1.1
          5 January 2020 at 11:39 am

          So are you saying “IF” Jacinda did the things I’ve read on Twitter they could be true as well ?

          i could give a link here to the legislation that would make the action alleged illegal.

          • joe90 1.4.1.1.1
            5 January 2020 at 11:48 am

            And I could say all sorts of things about a former cabinet minister, her brother, and his kit, too.

          • Psycho Milt 1.4.1.1.2
            5 January 2020 at 12:27 pm

            So are you saying “IF” Jacinda did the things I’ve read on Twitter they could be true as well ?

            Depends. Did Ardern go off to work as a mercenary for private interests in a foreign country and now refuses to say how many of the locals she killed? Because I'm pretty sure she didn't…

            • James 1.4.1.1.2.1
              5 January 2020 at 12:32 pm

              That’s a stupid argument.

              jacinda hasn’t answered questions about what people say about here other.

              do you think that unproven rumours should be allowed to be posted here – or Mitchell being a alleged war criminal- or jacinda xyz?

              cant have it both ways.

              • Psycho Milt …
                5 January 2020 at 1:48 pm

                It's not an unproven rumour that Mark Mitchell worked as a mercenary for private interests in Iraq and that his job was to protect those private interests from Iraqis opposed to the occupation of their country. Given the potential for war crimes to result from that, it's reasonable to ask Mark Mitchell how many people he killed in that job, and on what basis he killed them. It's his refusal to answer those reasonable questions that opens him up to suspicion. Idle gossip you may have heard about Ardern isn't even remotely in a similar category.

                • Peter …
                  5 January 2020 at 2:00 pm

                  Wow! There's an opportunity for me – my new mission in life can go to shops and turn or hide magazines and newspapers with mentions of Mitchell!

          • Incognito 1.4.1.1.3
            5 January 2020 at 5:21 pm

            False equivalence and a blatant attempt to diversion. Why tempt fate, James?

      • Gabby 1.4.2
        6 January 2020 at 2:37 pm

        A Merky past does not a war crim make jimbo.

    • James 1.5
      5 January 2020 at 11:06 am

      Btw – are we allowed to make serious claims based on unsourced allegations now – coz there are some doozies I’ve heard about Jacinda and the good old DJ days

      (no not going to post them – but making a point when making such strong allegations against someone there should be something to back it up. And accusations without any basis shouldn’t be a source).

      • Peter 1.5.1
        5 January 2020 at 11:21 am

        Claims about Mitchell have been around for years with them being described in various ways.

        Did aom1 make a serious claim merely by saying there'd been allegations, something which had been publicly reported and discussed?

        By that standard will there be complaints to the Press Council about the story on Stuff today?

        "National MP Jian Yang organised Simon Bridges' controversial China trip, emails show." There are insinuations in that far more that in aom1's comment.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118419927/national-mp-jian-yang-organised-simon-bridges-controversial-china-trip-emails-show

        • James 1.5.1.1
          5 January 2020 at 11:30 am

          Did aom1 make a serious claim merely by saying there'd been allegations, something which had been publicly reported and discussed?

          where has it been reported (in a reasonable media outlet) about Mark Being a war criminal?

          If using Twitter as a source (or something equally stupid) and then just putting “alleged” in front of it – you have to be fair and allow others to do it as well. Especially when it’s something so significant as indicating someone might be a war criminal

        • Gabby 1.5.1.2
          6 January 2020 at 2:38 pm

          I wonder who funded the travel by Slick to facetoface his handlers.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 1.5.2
        5 January 2020 at 12:16 pm

        James, if you're referring to the comment @1 that the Honourable Mark Mitchell has "been alleged to be a war criminal", then this is indeed the case. Here's a link containing that allegation. I cannot speak to the veracity of the allegation, only that the allegation is real, and therefore that the the quoted comment @1 is accurate. You're welcome smiley

        https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2018/02/22/it-is-not-good-enough-when-mark-mitchell-refuses-to-answer-if-he-killed-anyone/

        There was some concern (in 2018) among lefties about the prospect of the Honourable Mark Mitchell being chosen to lead the National party, but that’s water under the Bridges.

        "Mitchell’s engagement with war has been through the private sector, and it has made him a wealthy man. When he sold Threat Management Group in 2010 it was turning over $130 million per year. Where others might pull the trigger for their country, Mitchell, and the soldiers his company employed, pulled the trigger for profit."
        https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/21-02-2018/why-aspiring-national-leader-mark-mitchells-war-for-profit-past-matters/

        • James 1.5.2.1
          5 January 2020 at 12:37 pm

          Ok – so to clarify before I post them – as long as I have a link to the allegations made by people I can post that jacinda allegedly is a xyz?

          and at that point it would be a valid and correct post?

          as I said before – I would expect when repeated allegations they should come from a better source than Twitter it in this case the daily blog. But since the bar is that low – we should be ok.

          note to mods – I’m not actually going to post them. Just making a point of how stupid the comment is.
          but happy to take your direction if you are ok with posting allegations from second rate sources.

          [here’s how it works. Someone makes a claim that seems dubious (in this case they said there were allegations that someone was a war criminal). Other people then ask for this to be backed up with some kind of evidence. That evidence needs to have some level of credibility, so no, random reckons about JA from the dirty politic crew probably don’t count.

          By and large on a daily basis it gets left to the commentariat to set the culture of what counts as credible, but there is an expectation that a certain standard will be maintained and authors and moderators over time are involved in that.

          If you were serious about the issue today, you could simply have asked for the evidence. Instead you’ve run a number of stupid and inflammatory lines that look more designed to have a go at commenters and lefties. Nevertheless people have answered your questions at face value, so I’m not sure what you are on about here. If you think the explanations are wrong, then make the argument. This is what we do here. – weka]

          • Drowsy M. Kram 1.5.2.1.1
            5 January 2020 at 12:51 pm

            James, everyone reading this understands your motivation for commenting here.

            I'll leave it to readers to judge whether my reply @1.5.2 fairly addresses you initial question/complaint.

            "Btw – are we allowed to make serious claims based on unsourced allegations now – coz there are some doozies I’ve heard about Jacinda and the good old DJ days"

            The relevant point being that aom @1 made no "serious claims based on unsourced allegations"; they simply stated that the allegations exists. Aom did opine that the Honourable Mark Mitchell is a thug – once again I cannot attest to the veracity of that rather distasteful opinion.

            Indeed, it’s almost as distasteful as your repeated reference to the unspecified “doozies” of allegations about our current Prime Minister – isn’t she marvelous!

          • Robert Guyton 1.5.2.1.2
            5 January 2020 at 2:04 pm

            I think it's adorable how James takes issue with comments he thinks "stupid".

            Adorable.

          • weka 1.5.2.1.3
            5 January 2020 at 3:36 pm

            mod note for you James.

          • weka 1.5.2.1.4
            5 January 2020 at 3:39 pm

            btw, if you remove blank lines in your comment before posting, or edit to remove   then you won't end up with those big gaps in or below your comment (which I would appreciate).

  2. A 2
    5 January 2020 at 8:33 am

    Odd times in Mallacoota

    Date: January 31st, 2019

    Temps:

    7:59am 36.5C

    8:00am 49.0C

    8:11am 34.3C

    Shown in this video at 25:46mins

    • RedLogix 2.1
      5 January 2020 at 11:35 am

      Entirely possible for a gust of fire driven wind to cause that to happen. As a blatant one-up how about this one 🙂

      https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/ejtdp9/cabramurra_peaked_at_698_c_today_at_0426pm_these/

      This morning that number has been deleted on the BOM site, but at 4:27pm it's still clocked in at an insane 57 degC.
      http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDN60903/IDN60903.95916.shtml

      Very short term, but still utterly unthinkable. It’s a tiny automated weather station location high in the Victorian Alps and unmanned. There would have likely been no-one there at the time, but still it has to be unsurvivable if you were exposed to it for more than an hour or so.

      I once worked in temps in the mid 40's at a mine site for a few months. Stepping outside was literally like standing in a hair dryer, merely walking a few minutes from one air conditioned building to another was quite enough for me. In the Canadian Arctic I got to briefly experience -60degC for a few minutes … and that’s equally brutal.

  3. Formerly Ross 3
    5 January 2020 at 10:55 am

    The thrust of that article is that the attack on Scomo is political and cynical. Tony Abbott was attacked for personally fighting the fires while Scomo is attacked for doing too little. It's pathetic.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  4. Anker 4
    5 January 2020 at 11:51 am

    Anyone see Scotty from marketing add promoting his goats actions re the bush fires, while upbeat music is playing………….

    I am afraid marketing not going to cut it…………..

    also on fb a communication from pubs owner in the town where Morrison was verbally abused. Said pub owner is supposedly mortified by those outspoken “no hopers” destroying the towns reputation and is desperate to let the world no.

    personally I think those outspoken people have enhanced the town’s reputation

    i

    i

  6. Cinny 6
    5 January 2020 at 12:50 pm

    An insightful article… however simon does not want to comment… lol!

    Simon Bridges' controversial China visit was organised by Jian Yang, the National MP who admitted to training Chinese spies, official emails show.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118419927/national-mp-jian-yang-organised-simon-bridges-controversial-china-trip-emails-show

  8. Jenny How to get there 8
    5 January 2020 at 2:30 pm

    Smoke on the water fire in the sky.

    2.pm on a bright summers day Auckland's sky goes dark, queer orange tinged sunlight.

    Is it like this in other places?

    • Whispering Kate 8.1
      5 January 2020 at 3:21 pm

      Yes it is seriously weird what is happening. We live in precarious times. I wonder how people who are asthmatic are getting on. Myself I am struggling with a chest which has a ton of concrete on it and no end in sight for it clearing up. The other day the sun was a blood red ball in a leaden sky and that was seriously weird shit too.

      Poor Aus as much as we like to think they are awful people, they are suffering the likes they have never seen before. If it is lousy trying to breathe here spare some thoughts for the people, the animals and the countryside over there which is slowly destroying itself.

      • Sabine 8.1.1
        5 January 2020 at 3:57 pm

        just before christmas i encountered a young girl from OZ with the worst cough i have ever heard in such a young person. Deep, throughty as if she just had smoked a pack of Gitanes without filter. Her mom had taken her to NZ for a week to get out of the smoke of Sidney.

        I wonder how many people will have permanently damaged lungs / chronic bronchitis and such after having lived and worked in the Smog for the last two month now?

        My friend in Auckland said that her house was orange in the inside. That cloud is full of smog particles. I saw a picture of the glaciers being turned to caramel color due to the sod of the smoke cloud.

        I wonder how much of this could have been prevented had the Prime Idiot Scott Morrison put his pride behind country and send defense force/navy/army etc out to help with the containment of the fires much earlier then he did. He should have done that three month ago. But then i hear that his holiday in Hawaii was a breather.

    • tc 8.2
      6 January 2020 at 7:00 am

      Waikato west coast is like a sepia/yellow filters been applied.

      Surreal and sad knowing it's cause.

  9. Jenny How to get there 9
    5 January 2020 at 2:32 pm

    I wonder what kind of sunset we will get?

  10. Peter 10
    5 January 2020 at 2:35 pm

    Hamilton West MP Tim Macindoe is getting his little blob of publicity on the Natz 'smash 'em high, smash 'em low' crusade. In wanting no parole for convicted murderers if they don't reveal the location of their victim's body, he says he's not worried about risking punishing those wrongly convicted.

    With due respect to the MP and accepting it shows the same level of thinking that he and his leader exhibit, I think it would be appropriate if someone from his family or among his friends suffers from the sort of fascism he wants in New Zealand.

    [You disapprove but at the same time you wish this upon an MP’s family member or friend!? I hope you can see how twisted your comment really is. Please don’t stoop to gutter level to make a point – Incognito]

    • Incognito 10.1
      5 January 2020 at 3:34 pm

      See my Moderation note @ 2:35 PM.

      • Peter 10.1.1
        5 January 2020 at 5:32 pm

        I appreciate I should have been more careful with my wording.

        I should have just asked what level of fascism he wants in New Zealand and if he was prepared for citizens to suffer and be victims under such a regime, including himself and his family.

        He and his boss apparently think the same way about insignificant things like the Bill of Rights, the presumption being that they will be the lords and masters with tyrannical powers over others ruling justly and fairly.

  11. Jenny How to get there 11
    5 January 2020 at 3:03 pm

    As Auckland is covered in orange smog from the Australian bush fires.

    The world has made the link between Australian coal, fires and climate

    Nick O'Malley, stuff.co.nz, 08:19, Jan 05 2020

    Australia now has the world's attention.

    In international eyes, our leaders have been found wanting…..

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/118592515/the-world-has-made-the-link-between-australian-coal-fires-and-climate

    Australian leaders “have been found wanting”. It behoves our leaders here to step into the breach and give a lead.

    How can we in good faith ask the Australians to cut back their coal industry when we are not prepared to?

    Just as she did over the issuing all new deep sea oil and gas exploration permits, Prime Minister Ardern needs to step in and cancel Australian company Bathurst permit to explore for more coal on crown land in Huntly.

    https://extinctionrebellion.nz/2019/09/25/protesters-target-ardern-for-climate-change-hypocrisy-as-she-takes-world-stage/

    Come on Prime Minister, the world is crying out for a climate Churchill.

    This is your nuclear free moment.

    Cancel Bathurst's permits now!

  12. Sabine 12
    5 January 2020 at 3:28 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/118596151/climate-change-led-here-australian-pm-scott-morrison-says-amid-bushfire-crisis?fbclid=IwAR2EUjqvae9mZ1BXIimJptxUtocpSZFjwj4KhZonbGp2AXNCangze84RMy4

    yeah, yeah, say it ain't so

    the first video is the one to watch.

    I hope the damage is now high enough for Scott Morrison to realise that he really is the Prime Minister of all of OZ and thoughts and prayers are not really an answer to the great burning down of rural/coastal/small town/large town Oz.

  13. Robert Guyton 13
    5 January 2020 at 4:14 pm

    ""Why is the leader of New Zealand's biggest opposition party meeting with the head of China's secret police? And why is he in Beijing with a New Zealand member of parliament who spent 15 years working for Chinese military intelligence?""

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/118419927/national-mp-jian-yang-organised-simon-bridges-controversial-china-trip-emails-show?fbclid=IwAR1-mc7rhVsv6eeirTSJPE0fHqlUTRPwMJcYW6SjliF2hF6l_Td8_eC_A7w

    Bears repeating. Again and again.

  14. Jenny How to get there 14
    5 January 2020 at 4:21 pm

    New Coal Free New Zealand

    When will New Zealand's leaders act?

    Just one more horror': Iconic South Island glaciers stained by Aussie bushfires

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/118563496/just-one-more-horror-iconic-south-island-glaciers-stained-by-aussie-bushfires

    We did it over nuclear weapons.

    We did it over votes for women.

    ​​​​​​​We did it over Social Welfare.

    When will New Zealand show the way?

    When will New Zealand stop opening new coal mines?

    When will the “horror” stop?

    Prime Minister Ardern needs to step in and cancel Bathurst’s permit to explore for new coal on crown owned land.

    • Incognito 14.1
      5 January 2020 at 4:48 pm

      Prime Minister Ardern needs to step in and cancel Bathurst’s permit to explore for new coal on crown owned land.

      How and through what mechanism or process would the PM achieve this feat?

      To me, your comment(s) has the whiff of hot air. Show us the path, if you can, and do your user name justice.

      • Jenny How to get there 14.1.1
        5 January 2020 at 7:22 pm

        The question is not whether the Prime Minister could do it.

        Of course she could.

        The question is whether she would do it.

        It is not as if she doesn't have grounds. Have you seen the photos of our South Island glaciers?

        New Zealand's iconic white glaciers are turning shades of brown as a result of the smoke that has travelled to New Zealand from the bushfires in New South Wales and Victoria.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/118563496/just-one-more-horror-iconic-south-island-glaciers-stained-by-aussie-bushfires

        Our world reknowned glaciers are already in retreat, getting coated in heat absorbing dark muck from the Australian bush fires will hasten the process.

        If she wanted to, the PM could cut short her holiday to call her cabinet together for an emergency meeting on this crisis.

        In a show of solidarity with our beleagured cousins across the ditch.

        Rescinding Bathurst's coal exploraton permits could be put on the agenda of that meeting for a vote.

        As the leader of the country the Prime Minister could argue strongly for the motion.

        It's called leadership.

        Are we in a climate crisis or are we not?

        Have you seen the movie 'Darkest Hour'?

        If you have, then you will know Incognito what a real leader can do.

        The Prime Minister did it with her ban on new oil and gas exploration permits.. She could do it again for new coal exploration permits.

        Prime Minister Ardern said; "Climate change is my generation's nuclear free moment."

        This is her New Coal Free moment.

        Will she take it?

        Will our Prime Minister step up and become the leader she was meant to be and give the world an example of what needs to be done?

        As James Hanson said, “If we can’t stop coal it is all over for the climate”.

        • McFlock 14.1.1.1
          5 January 2020 at 7:45 pm

          The question is not whether the Prime Minister could do it.

          Of course she could.

          Well, it would probably require legislative change which means cross-partisan support at least within the coalition.

          The Greens would be on board.

          NZ1? Doubtful.

          So no, she probably can't.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 14.1.1.1.1
            5 January 2020 at 8:33 pm

            Agree PM Ardern probably can't, however such grand-standing would highlight (again) which NZ political parties are leaders and which parties are laggards as far as curtailing fossil fuel prospecting/mining/drilling/exporting is concerned.

            Maybe there won't be any real reduction in Australian coal mining/exports, the wildfires being a "small price to pay", but 'the planet' can hope. Similarly re Amazon forest clearances – we really are a daft lot (and there are a lot of us.)

            • McFlock 14.1.1.1.1.1
              5 January 2020 at 8:41 pm

              We know which ones are the laggards. Putting out legislation to call your coalition partner a dick is not conducive to further coalition agreements.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                5 January 2020 at 8:44 pm

                Yes, we know.

                Is this how the art of the possible ends? Slow, and ‘steady‘…

                • McFlock …
                  5 January 2020 at 8:57 pm

                  I suspect anyone who cares about AGW knows.

                  Which makes the antagonism of a coalition partner quite worthless.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    5 January 2020 at 9:10 pm

                    Delay may be a wise political strategy, and maybe it will serve NZ well.

                    Maybe the tragedy of the Australian fires, however, is an opportunity to get more voters on board re the seriousness of AGW.

                    But how to show voters you're serious, and not just grand-standing?

                    In light of recent events, I find myself increasingly sympathetic to calls for rapid and radical action, however politically impractical that may be. I’m due to travel to Victoria in less than a month, and fear that humankind may be leaving its run to combat AGW a little late.

                    • Sacha …
                      5 January 2020 at 9:31 pm

                      Radical action is not going to come from this government.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      5 January 2020 at 9:49 pm

                      Nor from (m)any other governments, which is problematic if radical action is a prerequisite for minimising AGW. 'We' are in a bind.

                    • Incognito …
                      5 January 2020 at 10:11 pm

                      When public opinion starts to shift what previously looked politically impractical or even like political suicide might start to look less radical, acceptable, and politically desirable even.

                      Political parties will be re-calibrating their policies and doing internal polling for the upcoming election campaign. The manoeuvring for voters has already started. Some will campaign positively and others will not.

                      Will it still be “it’s the economy, stupid!” or will we finally see a shift, be it a subtle one or a sea change?

                      A good leader will be able to persuade the (voting) public of a viable way forward. A good leader will also be in touch with the mood of the people and resonate with it. Negative leadership produces dissonance.

                    • Sacha …
                      6 January 2020 at 7:12 am

                      Organise outside political parties and apply pressure from there. Be interested to hear how the Aussies are doing that when you visit.

                  • McFlock …
                    6 January 2020 at 12:27 am

                    "Delay" is not the strategy. "Not pissing off the people you could well need if you want to sit at the cabinet table again" is the strategy. Refer to National, the Biggest Losers.

                    The fires in Aus, and the fires in the regions here, might be enough of a wakeup call for NZ1 to prioritise long term well-being over short term regional employment in fossil fuels.

                    But anyone who wants to be serious about Climate Change already knows to vote Green. I mean, seriously: how many people for whom climate change is a significant voting factor are, e.g., voting National because they think National has a good AGW policy?

                    • Anne …
                      6 January 2020 at 10:02 am

                      But anyone who wants to be serious about Climate Change already knows to vote Green.

                      Thing is McFlock the Greens can't do it on their own. There's a block inside the Labour Party who are just as passionate about Climate Change. I'm one of them and mickeysavage of course is another.

                      We would likely fit well in the Green Party too, but we choose to fight our corner inside Labour. We're getting there. I think our power inside the party has probably significantly increased due to the bushfires.

                      Reality is setting in among the populace and about bloody time too.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      6 January 2020 at 12:59 pm

                      "Delay is not the strategy" – fair enough then, delay is an outcome of pragmatic politics. Granted, that delay might be more protracted under a National-led government, but delay is delay – BAU GDP growth.

                      How genuine are all our political leaders about making the necessary changes – and I'm not talking electric cars.

                      Here are three paragraphs from a 2012 book:
                      Investment and growth in the time of climate change

                      "The first common theme is that climate change poses a resource allocation challenge like few others. When allocating resources to climate action and other uses, society faces a variety of complex trade-offs. Most obviously, there is the trade-off between a safer climate in the future and more consumption today. There is broad agreement that it is sensible to forgo some of today’s consumption in return for a safer climate. The choices are harder when considering the trade-off between a safer climate and increased future consumption. This trade-off arises because resources allocated to climate action today might be at the expense of an expansion of the productive capital stock that will determine the extent of future consumption options. Finally, assessing trade-offs indeed becomes daunting when the choice is between climate action and spending in areas that many people would find worthy of receiving a bigger share of resources, such as research and development, healthcare and conflict prevention and resolution."

                      "Answering this question – the quest for appropriate climate action more generally – is difficult. The answer needs to be found in an environment characterised by deep uncertainty; possibly big, abrupt and catastrophic climate change; and the irreversibility of the stock of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. Equally importantly, the answer crucially depends on how much weight is given to the welfare of future generations relative to the welfare of current generations. This weight depends on economic considerations, but also hinges on ethical judgements. The more today’s generation cares about the welfare of future generations, the more it should invest in cutting emissions. If this appears too obvious a choice, it should not be forgotten that about two billion people today live in dire poverty and doing more today for a safer future climate absorbs resources that could be used to fight poverty here and now. This substantially qualifies the seemingly agreeable statement made above that it might be easy to choose in favour of climate action if it comes at the expense of consumption. The thorny question is: whose consumption?"

                      "The second theme common to all chapters is the role of governments. Regardless of the degree of climate action that society might wish to see, markets left to their own devices will not deliver it because of a variety of externalities, behavioural failures, barriers to investment and other market failures. Of particular importance are the negative climate-change externality of greenhouse-gas emissions, and the closely-related collective-action problem of reaching an international agreement to cut emissions. There is thus a role for government policies to help overcome these obstacles and to work towards meeting climate objectives at least cost."

                      https://www.eib.org/attachments/thematic/investment_and_growth_in_the_time_of_climate_change_en.pdf

          • Jenny How to get there 14.1.1.1.2
            5 January 2020 at 10:07 pm

            McFlock
            5 January 2020 at 7:45 pm

            ….it would probably require legislative change which means cross-partisan support at least within the coalition.

            The Greens would be on board.

            NZ1? Doubtful….

            Maybe, maybe not.

            It is in times of crisis that real leaders shine.

            The Prime Minister was able to drag NZ First behind in her wake over banning all new deep sea oil drilling permits.

            Remember this?

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12030956

            New Zealand First love their baubles of office too much to throw it all away just to please an Australian coal company.

            After what they have done to their own country, Aussie Coal companies should have few friends in New Zealand.

            NZ First along with the rest of the coalition government will have no trouble selling a ban on new coal exploration to their supporters.

            Just look at the sky.

            • McFlock 14.1.1.1.2.1
              6 January 2020 at 12:35 am

              And it's that idea about NZ1 that put the nats into opposition.

              Maybe this is an opportunity to further push back on denialists an any particular party (who knows, Labour probably has a couple, and even some Greens might prefer economic rather than legal controls). But change will not be a "gun laws will change" given, with support from all-but-one in the House. It will be a moderated agreement passed in the collective name of the coalition.

              • Sacha …
                6 January 2020 at 7:07 am

                Yes, and there would be accompanying concessions to Winston First like even more regional investment in other industries for mining regions.

        • Incognito 14.1.1.2
          5 January 2020 at 8:35 pm

          Your comments resemble a monologue between two people: you and yourself.

          The question was how.

          • Sacha 14.1.1.2.1
            5 January 2020 at 9:06 pm

            Just won't listen to herself. 🙂

          • Jenny How to get there 14.1.1.2.2
            5 January 2020 at 10:17 pm

            ‘
            The answer was leadership

            • Incognito 14.1.1.2.2.1
              5 January 2020 at 10:27 pm

              42

              • Jenny How to get there …
                5 January 2020 at 11:19 pm

                I

                incognito 14.1.1.2.2.1

                5 January 2020 at 10:27 pm

                42

                An error was introduced into the equations on 'the meaning of life the universe and everything' by the intervention of aliens expelled from their home planet of Golgafrinchan for being useless.

                The Golgafrinchans first act on reaching Earth, after choosing the leaf as their unit of exchange?

                Set fire to the forests to fight inflation and increase the value of their new currency.

                Possible passive/aggressive comment on the current state of affairs. Adds nothing to what we here in New Zealand can do to address the bush fire crisis in solidarity with the suffering citizens and flora and fauna of Australia.

                • Incognito …
                  6 January 2020 at 2:12 pm

                  Possible passive/aggressive comment on the current state of affairs. Adds nothing to what we here in New Zealand can do to address the bush fire crisis in solidarity with the suffering citizens and flora and fauna of Australia.

                  QED

          • Jenny How to get there 14.1.1.2.3
            5 January 2020 at 11:00 pm

            @14.1.1.2

            5 January 2020 at 8:35 pm

            Your comments resemble a monologue between two people: you and yourself.

            No shame in that.

            However, I would like to take this opportunity to thank McFlock, Drowsy M. Kram, Sacha and even yourself and for contributing to this discussion. Much appreciated.

            • Incognito 14.1.1.2.3.1
              6 January 2020 at 2:07 pm

              This is not a platform for monologue but a place for robust debate. Please keep your singing in the shower.

              • Sabine …
                6 January 2020 at 2:17 pm

                oh good grief, her comment is as good as any here.

                Or maybe LPrent should set up rules as to what is singing in the shower and what is a robust debate on the OPEN MIKE!

                • Incognito …
                  6 January 2020 at 2:25 pm

                  She has form, she receives a warning, she ignores it. Rinse and repeat.

                  • Sabine …
                    6 January 2020 at 2:42 pm

                    she has said and done nothing on this threat that would demand a warning. This is the open mike, anyone can posts thoughts, ideas, and other assorted bullshit and it would not make a world of difference.

                    She was disrespectful to no one, she is not calling any one out and frankly you come across as if you were on a personal vendetta.

                    just me two cents.

                    • Incognito …
                      6 January 2020 at 3:12 pm

                      As I said, she has form. She’s been a long-term commenter and has been warned and banned for the same shit many times. Her last ban (Aug 2019) was for three months. Yet she continues to waste Moderator time; you don’t know what goes on in the back-end. You may perceive it as a “personal vendetta” and I’d say my patience is/was running out. Please note that she is now in Moderation for ignoring a request to leave moderation to Moderators and for unsupported allegations based on mixing up words and meanings, again, and taking things too far, as usual. I do find some (a few) of her comments/commenting disrespectful, which is another reason why I bother with them/her, to no avail. It is tedious and tiresome.

  15. A 15
    5 January 2020 at 4:42 pm

    Imagine giving your all for the fires an being penalised by Centerlink for it

    https://twitter.com/Girrali/status/1211173432840220672

  16. A 16
    5 January 2020 at 5:12 pm

    Random point…I purchased a newspaper today, weekend edition. The price has gone up to $4. The paper looks much the same. Sort of felt let down because despite the price it is definitely not ad free.

  17. Muttonbird 17
    5 January 2020 at 9:42 pm

    The world isn't impressed by Scomo's response to the bush fires.

    Jacinda Ardern should make a visit to the region to show him how it's done!

    • Sabine 17.1
      5 January 2020 at 9:59 pm

      this was just missing a

      yeah, right TUI

    • Graeme 17.2
      5 January 2020 at 10:06 pm

      A Question on an Aussie mates Facebook page, he's a pretty right wing banana bender,

      Do you support Scott Morrison as Prime Minister?

      He answered, No

      End of line for Scotty from Marketing?

      • weka 17.2.1
        6 January 2020 at 12:37 am

        I'm sure they've got a replacement lined up. It's not like your mate is saying he doesn't support the whole party, right?

        • Jenny How to get there 17.2.1.1
          6 January 2020 at 7:17 am

          Of course they have got a replacement lined up. It's almost like Australia have a got a conveyor belt of prospective Prime Ministers.

          When one PM stumbles and fails to act on climate change, another fresh one is minted straight away.

          Climate change brought down another prime minister in Australia. Here’s what happened.

          Joshua Busby, Washington Post, August 27, 2018

          …..Why is climate such a politically explosive issue in Australia? Depending on whose count, this is the third or seventh time that an Australian prime minister has been brought down by climate issues.

          Australia is quite vulnerable to climate change, but complicated domestic politics have prevented the country from addressing the problem…..

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/08/27/climate-change-brought-down-another-government-in-australia-heres-what-happened/

          “complicated domestic politics” being of course, a euphemism for powerful coal lobby.

      • Gabby 17.2.2
        6 January 2020 at 3:05 pm

        Tone Yabber on the comeback?

  18. Poission 18
    5 January 2020 at 10:43 pm

    Goodbye Sergeant York,and captain commando, WW3 will be between hackers with high BMI fueled by pepsi.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/05/us-government-agency-website-hacked-by-group-claiming-to-be-from-iran

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