Open mike 07/07/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:21 am, July 7th, 2014 - 302 comments
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openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

302 comments on “Open mike 07/07/2014 ”

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  1. phillip ure 1
    7 July 2014 at 7:16 am

    key on tvone breakfast..

    ..attacking labours’ class-size policy..

    ..and he’s got nuthin’..he’s floundering/grasping..

    ..heh..!

    • Paul 1.1
      7 July 2014 at 7:42 am

      On the same issue, Fearfax Media’s bias shows through in this article.
      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10238641/Cuts-only-half-the-story-educators

      Here’s the laughable part..

      They quote New Zealand Educational Institute president Judith Nowotarski, who said smaller class sizes would make a huge difference to the quality of teaching and learning in our schools. and that International studies showed the benefits went beyond the school gate.

      Then gave similar weighting and column space to ‘Miramar mum Lesleigh Norrington,’

      What a joke!

      Key sent his son to King’s.
      What is the average class size there?

      • vto 1.1.1
        7 July 2014 at 8:14 am

        At the time Key specifically said one of the reasons was the small class sizes.

        You would expect the media to put this in front of him when interviewing on this exact issue – or no.

          • ianmac 1.1.1.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 9:43 am

            Associate Professor John O’Neill, of Massey University’s Institute of Education, said the Labour Party’s proposal to cut school class sizes if elected in September would not achieve much without changes to teaching itself.
            Every teacher would agree with this. To just transfer big class strategies to a smaller class is not in itself the answer. But crucially the smaller classes allow targetted learning to take place. It opens the door to managing to help the underachiever.
            Note Private School classes of 18.
            Note Charter schools with under 20 per class.
            All so they can help learners to get high quality feedback crucial to better learning.

            • Murray Olsen 1.1.1.1.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 10:54 pm

              An Ass. Prof. makes an obvious statement which not so lightly damns the Labour policy on specious grounds. What a surprise. As ianmac says, smaller class sizes allow for changes to teaching. They allow teachers to use and develop their talents in a way that big classes don’t.

      • Paul 1.1.2
        7 July 2014 at 8:17 am

        And less biased, but still with an undercurrent of prejudice, Trevett’s piece in the Herlad.
        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11288733

        (The Herald’s plan seems to be to ignore it, placing headlines about Oscar Pistorius and a McLarens car above it.)

        This sentence in Trevett’s piece shows her Tory leanings.
        “As expected, Labour’s policy mix was welcomed by the teacher unions and education groups…’

        She does not write “As expected, Education Minister Hekia Parata said Labour’s changes would make little difference.”
        Wonder why?

        • greywarbler 1.1.2.1
          7 July 2014 at 9:45 am

          On education. A rivetting item on Radionz on the Te Kotahitanga program as followed in Northland’s Kerikeri High School which last month was awarded the Prime Minister’s
          award for Excellence in Teaching and Learning
          http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon
          The successful Te Kotahitanga programme ( 27′ 9″ ) 09:08

          This month the teaching system has been wiped as a stand alone practice system and incorporated into another system one with an upbeat name. In fact it has been watered down, various aspects such as roaming teachers acting as monitors and coaches have been removed. This is strange as they were doing very similar work to that proposed by this new $300 million NACT idea involving leading principals and teachers.

          (I think many of the principals like the new proposed programme as it will do some good for the schools involved, and a lot of good to their mana and salary, good on their CV etc. And many secondary principals are strongly into the business model of education and most principals at any level are becoming managers first and would conservatively follow all Ed Dept direction.)

          But the Te Kotahitanga program pilot carried out in 12 schools, Kerikeri HS amongst them, really gives ‘the tail’ what it needs to succeed. It goes well away from what is called ‘the banking system’ of education (information is deposited and accumulates, through the portals of the mind) rather like posting a letter. Instead it looks to working with pupils, getting them into small teams, and facilitating the learning to suit them.

          Eureka at Kerikeri HS! After a period of settling in and getting accustomed to the new learning, the pass rate – I think this is correct – for Level 2 NCEA for the group used as a base standard, has gone from 28% to 82% e&oe.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • David H 1.1.2.2
          8 July 2014 at 9:01 am

          So this may be of interest. Yesterday TV3 Brekkie did a little on Cunliffe and the weekend congress and education more based on Key pooh poohing it. Lunchtime Nothing about Labour nothing about their policies nothing at all nix nada nought.. 6PM TV3 News More of the nothing now this is strange of TV3. And that replacement for Paul Henry, what a RWNJ, and an old hag to boot all she could do was put the boot into Cunliffe. (Maybe she’s pissed her looks have gone and has to pay for Plastic surgery) I don’t know what motivates them. As to TV1 or Prime who knows what they have been doing.

          • Paul 1.1.2.2.1
            8 July 2014 at 9:07 am

            “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
            Mahatma Gandhi

    • Gosman 1.2
      7 July 2014 at 8:52 am

      I believe he pointed out that studies have suggested that teacher performance is better at inproving student achievement rather than class sizes. Hence that is where National’s focus is. I wouldn’t call that noting. Of course you are free to disagree with him. That is why we have elections.

      • phillip ure 1.2.1
        7 July 2014 at 9:03 am

        an election you are going to lose..

        ..the question now is ‘by how much?’..

        • Gosman 1.2.1.1
          7 July 2014 at 9:12 am

          Possibly but it is very close. Closer than it really should be given this is a second term government that just managed to scrape in at the last election.

          • phillip ure 1.2.1.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 9:22 am

            key looks more like a prime minister seeking a fourth term..than a third..

            ..i think the glazed-eyes/rictus-smiles/no-ideas help create that impression..

            • Gosman 1.2.1.1.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 9:47 am

              You thought that even when he wasn’t Prime Minister. The fact remains he is very popular for a second term PM.

          • Lanthanide 1.2.1.1.2
            7 July 2014 at 9:29 am

            “Closer than it really should be given this is a second term government that just managed to scrape in at the last election.”

            Yes. Purely because the Nats have a popular leader, not because they’re actually competent.

            • Gosman 1.2.1.1.2.1
              7 July 2014 at 9:48 am

              Less gaffe prone than Labour at least.

              • Paul …
                7 July 2014 at 9:50 am

                I think that if the media spotlight was applied evenly, there would be a different story to tell…

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  7 July 2014 at 1:25 pm

                  If the media spotlight was applied evenly half of the present National MPs wouldn’t be in parliament and some of those, especially a few ministers, would be in jail.

                  • Gosman …
                    7 July 2014 at 6:31 pm

                    If you have evidence of illegal behaviour perhaps you should present it.

                    • McFlock …
                      7 July 2014 at 6:35 pm

                      McCready will do you one better.

                      Oh, and I believe that the crosbytextor recommended comment is along the lines of the case being laughable and ridiculous and won’t get anywhere. At least that’s the sort of thing the toryboys said about the Banks prosecution.

              • freedom …
                7 July 2014 at 11:10 am

                when it comes to the behaviour of Party Leaders
                I would much rather have gaffes than lies

                • Puckish Rogue …
                  7 July 2014 at 12:25 pm

                  So you’re not a fan of Cunliffe then?

                  • freedom …
                    7 July 2014 at 12:41 pm

                    PR, genuine question….where has he lied?
                    I don’t want a quote from media interpretation of what they think he said or a John Key smear. Where and when, specifically, has Cunliffe lied?

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      7 July 2014 at 4:06 pm

                      The problem is my interpretation is hes lied numerous times whereas yours is he hasn’t but his CV was a definate no ifs no buts lie

                    • McFlock …
                      7 July 2014 at 6:38 pm

                      specifically?

      • Paul 1.2.2
        7 July 2014 at 9:22 am

        He sent his kids to a school with small class sizes, yet doesn’t want that for others.
        Hypocritical.

      • felix 1.2.3
        7 July 2014 at 9:25 am

        “Studies have suggested”, Gosman? I’m sure the PM can always find another study suggesting the opposite, eh?

        Anyway the headline is “Labour = smaller classes, National = bigger classes”.

        And now the game is to see how many times we can make Key go on tv and say, to every parent in NZ, “your kids’ class size doesn’t matter”.

        And every parent in NZ knows it’s not true. Well done Labour, more like this please.

        • Ant 1.2.3.1
          7 July 2014 at 9:48 am

          Totally, they haven’t put them in this spot since Kiwipower, explain why lower power bills are bad again John?

          • Gosman 1.2.3.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 9:52 am

            Because you can’t usually legislate lower prices. There is normally a negative impact for any action and the ones in their power plan are numerous.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.3.1.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 10:14 am

              If you buy anything in bulk you get a lower price, especially when you make lots of it yourself.

              • McFlock …
                7 July 2014 at 1:09 pm

                rio tinto, for example. They pay fuck-all for their electricity.

                • Murray Olsen …
                  7 July 2014 at 11:14 pm

                  Gosman might be right. There are a load of negative impacts from gifting Rio Tinto cheap power.

            • framu 1.2.3.1.1.2
              7 July 2014 at 10:16 am

              kiwipower was bulk buying wasnt it?

              ie: nothing like legislated lower prices at all

        • Gosman 1.2.3.2
          7 July 2014 at 9:51 am

          I think the headline is more “Labour = smaller class sizes. National = better quality teaching”. Now you might want to argue the point on whether National plans will lead to better quality teaching but that is their aim.

          • Te Reo Putake 1.2.3.2.1
            7 July 2014 at 9:54 am

            Labour are aiming for both, Gossie, so that’s the winning difference.

            https://www.labour.org.nz/sites/default/files/issues/backing_quality_teaching_factsheet.pdf

          • felix 1.2.3.2.2
            7 July 2014 at 10:02 am

            Gos, it doesn’t matter what National’s aim is. They want to put your kids in bigger classes.

            Labour wants them in smaller ones.

            Who has it right? Ask any parent in NZ.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2.3.2.2.1
              7 July 2014 at 10:13 am

              Ask John Key.

              “The Prime Minister told the Listener he sent his children to private schools for educational reasons, including smaller classes and better resources.” The National Party Herald, 2.6.12

              • Tracey …
                7 July 2014 at 3:27 pm

                and people like Gosman, you notice, will not address that statement, as though it never happened.

                • Gosman …
                  7 July 2014 at 6:37 pm

                  What is to address? He stated his opinion on the subject. As much as you lefties love to make it all about Key he isn’t actually the expert on all areas of government and his opinion is not the same as party policy. The policy is that any extra money in the public education sector could be better used improving teacher performance rather than reducing class sizes. That is not difficult to understand and it is also not inconsistent with John Key’s views which you quote.

                  • felix …
                    7 July 2014 at 6:57 pm

                    It’s totally inconsistent.

                    Key wants small classes for his own kids and bigger classes for everyone else’s.

                    • Tracey …
                      7 July 2014 at 7:00 pm

                      Their inconsistency is consistent but their superiority complexes dont allow them to see that we see.

                • felix …
                  7 July 2014 at 6:48 pm

                  Just like Key…

          • JanM 1.2.3.2.3
            7 July 2014 at 11:30 am

            No they don’t want better quality teaching – that is why they have put in a system (national standards) known to have failed overseas

      • geoff 1.2.4
        7 July 2014 at 10:01 am

        Explaining is losing.
        I believe your side is fond of that one, ay Gos?

    • David H 1.3
      7 July 2014 at 9:06 am

      Like a fish out of water he’s flip flopping all over the place,

  2. Rodel 2
    7 July 2014 at 7:24 am

    Principals, promised $1000s by National, support National’s plans for more more money for a few principals.
    Teachers,who do the actual teaching, promised more teachers by Labour, support Labour’s plans.
    Hatte and co. who don’t teach kids, count their academic beans and pontificate.
    Funny that!

  3. phillip ure 3
    7 July 2014 at 7:38 am

    i don’t say this very often..but must-watch television on tv one breakfast….

    ..a woman who works with the homeless..talks to their plight..

    ..it is powerful/moving television..and a call for action..

    (and should/deserves to go viral..do what u can 2 make that happen..!..eh..?..)

    ..and as one who has been on the verge of homelessness..(living in a car..) after me and my son were suddenly/unexpectedly made homeless by our landlord..’the peoples’ centre’..(!)..yes..!..i know..!..i too was struck by the incongruities..at the time..still am..in fact..

    ..and i saw the person who did the deed..at a public event recently..and she saw me..and i really really hope..that seeing me across a crowded room..had her shifting uncomfortably in herself..as it fucken should..)

    ..anyway..i digress..the lady working with the homeless said words that resonated with me/brought unpleasant memories flooding back….

    ..like i said..it’s must-watch! television…really..

    ..and way past time we fixed this up..really..

    ..and i’ll tell you one thing for free….a rand-ite/tory govt. won’t fix anything..

    ..for the simple reason..

    ..that they just don’t give a fuck…about poverty/homelessness..

    ..they just don’t fucken care…

    • bad12 3.1
      7 July 2014 at 9:22 am

      Tell us all Phillip, did the ‘kick’ from the peoples center occur while Sue was around, did you forget to pay the rent for a little whiles(months),

      Did you have a discussion or two with your fellows at the center in the same vein as you are wont to have little discussies,(tantrums),here…

  4. karol 4
    7 July 2014 at 8:28 am

    If Margaret Thatcher were alive today, should should apologise to all women and children for serving them so badly, and she should apologise for being a part of a government that turned a blind eye to alleged child abuse.

    And then she should apologise to half the planet for paying a leading part in the great neoliberal swindle.

    Corrupt to the core!

    And those still standing who participated in that corrupt governance, should be looking at how they can start to undo the damage, and begin to build a better society.

    • Colonial Viper 4.1
      7 July 2014 at 8:35 am

      Instead she got a state funeral on the taxpayers dime. The Tories had another last laugh on all of us.

      • karol 4.1.1
        7 July 2014 at 8:43 am

        The last laugh, maybe. But perhaps not the last judgement. It looks like they are being a bit exposed for being a morally bankrupt pack who will do whatever it takes to protect their power. And that also goes for the Blairite neoliberal apologists that followed them into power.

      • Chooky 4.1.2
        7 July 2014 at 9:47 am

        but she did go ga-ga at the end …so maybe not the last personal laugh..that must have been galling for one who so prided herself on her scientific education and frame of mind

        • Hami Shearlie 4.1.2.1
          7 July 2014 at 11:30 am

          So did Ronald Reagan – makes you wonder just WHEN the “going ga-ga” started – after or BEFORE they left office!!

          • Puckish Rogue 4.1.2.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 12:31 pm

            Margret Thatcher was a great women (how many of her policies were continued on by later governments) but more importantly she had a part to play in creating soft serve ice cream

  5. vto 5
    7 July 2014 at 8:49 am

    rural radio taking the full mickey out of cunliffe’s “I’m sorry for being a man … I’m sorry for being a man”

    local people never beholden to expression of political thought, unsolicited the last couple days … “didya hear cunliffe? that man aint fit to be a leader”

    rightly or wrongly or out of context or whatever the fuck, he certainly made certain of a few swinging voters choices. Why didn’t he just say something like “I am sorry for the things my fellow men have done”?

    I am sorry for being a man – what a frikkin egg.

    and ‘context’ will unfortunately just have to stay where it was – in the room where the speech was given… ‘context’ plays no part in how this gets read by the public. I thought the labour party had long political experience? Dunces.

    • Gosman 5.1
      7 July 2014 at 9:03 am

      The speech was prime ministerial in that it would have been acceptable for a newly elected Prime Minister with a large mandate to make. However David Cunliffe isn’t in such a position and therefore he will alienate more people than he wins over. Nice to see the hard core lefties here are generally quite impressed with his coments though. He at least has solidified the support amongst that crucial demographic /sar.

    • Chooky 5.2
      7 July 2014 at 9:04 am

      Yes I have a beef with Morning Report:’s reportage of Labour’s education policies .

      … I am sick of having to hear the amount of time Parata is given to hog it on Morning Report…without adequate challenging ….way more time than Labour whose polices were under discussion….Talk about media bias!

      ….Where was Labour Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins?…the interviewer of Parata did her best ….but a Labour spokesperson conversant with all the issues would have done much better…particularly on advocating Labour Education policy!

      ( all Morning Report reported from Labour , that i heard, was David Cunliffe saying that there was conflicting evidence on class sizes…Labour also has to get up to speed here!..it is not good enough to send mixed messages on your own policies..if small classes are good for Private Schools and Charter Schools they are good for State Schools!…end of story!)

      Questions I would like the answers to:

      • National talks about “quality teaching” but for Charter Schools it was going to allow NON trained teachers!…to indoctrinate?…hardly quality teaching /educating here!( in the USA Charter School ‘teachers’ are often not trained teachers/educators)
      • Is it true that teachers are paid more in Private Schools?… thereby poaching ‘quality’ teachers?…if this is the case Labour should take away New Zealand tax payers subsidies to Private Schools!!!!….all teachers should be paid the same in the State and Private education sectors
    • BM 5.3
      7 July 2014 at 9:19 am

      I’d say he lost quite a large percentage of the male union vote with the “Sorry I’m a man comment”.

      Can’t really see all the physical laboring guys supporting Cunliffe after that, they won’t vote National though, can’t vote for a suit.

      They’ll just stay at home.

      • phillip ure 5.3.1
        7 July 2014 at 9:27 am

        yeah right..bm…that’s the clincher..!..eh..?

        ..you just keep on hanging onto that sheet-anchor of desperation..eh..?

        ..you’ll be able to use it to wipe yr tears..

        • BM 5.3.1.1
          7 July 2014 at 9:35 am

          You probably haven’t had a lot to do with people that work in physical occupations.
          Being a man and a hard man is an admired and looked up to quality.

          Personally, I think a lot of them are just one dimensional boof heads who I don’t have a lot of time for any more, but they are quite a large voter block and the leader of the LABOUR party should have really taken this into account before he publicly emasculated himself.

          • felix 5.3.1.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 9:44 am

            You think people are one-dimensional because you know nothing about them you tory-drawn caricature.

            • BM 5.3.1.1.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 9:47 am

              You ever worked with your hands felix?

              I picture you as one of those scrawny, vesper riding, Rick the anarchist types.

              • felix …
                7 July 2014 at 9:54 am

                Like I said, you know nothing about people.

                You write as a caricature of what tories think working people are supposed to be, and you assume everyone is as flat and lifeless and one-celled as you are.

                It’s transparent and it’s dull. It’s clear to me that the only work you’ve ever done with your hands is what you’re doing right now.

          • bad12 5.3.1.1.2
            7 July 2014 at 9:46 am

            What this comment is suggestive of BM, the being a ‘man’ and a ‘hard man’ bit is that there is some requirement to attain such respect of domestic violence being part and parcel of the domain,

            The imaginings you have so far laid out, here this morning, and, in the previous Post on the subject has me all a wonder at what you get up to in your domestic situation…

            • BM 5.3.1.1.2.1
              7 July 2014 at 9:57 am

              I no longer move in those type of circles, I work behind a desk these days.

              I have had a lot of experience working around and with people that do a lot of physical work though and what I wrote above is just the way a lot of the guys behave.

              Rugby, Rugby league, getting on the piss, fighting, doing crazy dangerous shit etc, doesn’t mean they beat their ladies though.

              If anything, most would fight to the death to protect them.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                7 July 2014 at 10:09 am

                Some of them do though, don’t they. Some people who work behind desks do. Some who own private jets do.

                Even buried statistics indicate that it’s happening right now somewhere close by.

              • KJT …
                7 July 2014 at 9:13 pm

                Bit of a one dimensional view of those in tough jobs, don’t you think, BM.

                The toughest guy, we had working with us recently, was a 19 year old girl. Always up smiling for work, despite being cold. wet, tired and chronically seasick.

          • David H 5.3.1.1.3
            7 July 2014 at 9:54 am

            Hey Bullshit Man, as a child from South London in the 1950’s I know all about ‘Hard’. So I say this to you. Until you can have an honest chat with yourself and sort your ‘shit’ out. Then you will NEVER understand where Cunliffe is coming from!

          • phillip ure 5.3.1.1.4
            7 July 2014 at 10:32 am

            “..You probably haven’t had a lot to do with people that work in physical occupations.
            Being a man and a hard man is an admired and looked up to quality…”

            is that why they like john key..?

            ..all those muscles honed while flipping currencies..?

            ..and i’m fucken (semi-educated) working-class..so..y’know..!

            • bad12 5.3.1.1.4.1
              7 July 2014 at 12:01 pm

              Over educated semi illiterate would be the epithet i would have applied Phillip…

              • phillip ure …
                7 July 2014 at 12:26 pm

                we couldn’t really ever say that about you..could we..?..’Over educated’..?

                ..but you wear it proud..

                • bad12 …
                  7 July 2014 at 1:58 pm

                  Well no Phillip, this no would have to though be qualified by a definite description of what we consider to be ‘education/educated’,

                  While my level of education in the classical sense of the word is minimal,the old fourth form is as far as the system and i could tolerate each other, education per se cannot be just measured by book learning and in the era of the computer my education continues unabated,

                  Your barely literate attempts while masked with the plagarized ‘style’ are totally apparent the more of it you spray about,

                  i hate to be repetitive Phillip, but, an unkind person having been subjected to enough of your drivel and aquainted with the fact that you hold an arts degree would have to be forgiven that such a degree was likely to have not been the reward of effort, rather the spoils of fear,

                  The fear of the Institution that you would return for another ‘go’ should they not have granted it to you,

                  You have been employed as??? Phillip,to be part of the ‘working class’ the epithet is strongly suggestive of one so labeled as actually having ever done any…

                  • phillip ure …
                    7 July 2014 at 2:32 pm

                    “.. a tale told by an idiot – full of sound and fury –

                    • signifying nothing..”

                    (and i can feel the rigor mortis from boredom setting in again..so back into yr corner with you..eh..?..

                    ..the other ‘idiot’..allen..is there..waiting for you…

                    ..see ya..!..again..!..)

                    • bad12 …
                      7 July 2014 at 3:32 pm

                      No fury involved thanks Phillip, plenty of abuse though evident in your latest spray of barely literate invective,(easy to see why i come to the conclusions above right),

                      i am though, interested,(slightly on a slow day), in your little,(pretty laughable), claim to be working class,

                      Have you ever, had a ‘real’ job that is…

      • Paul 5.3.2
        7 July 2014 at 9:30 am

        I imagine that men and women who don’t like the fact that Christchurch’s only Rape Crisis centre has been closed because of a thirty thousand dollar shortfall will not be so impressed by the National Party.
        The fact you emphasise the Cunliffe comment above this fact says so much about you and your type.

      • felix 5.3.3
        7 July 2014 at 9:31 am

        BM, your comment history suggests very strongly that you’re a Grammar boy who doesn’t know anything about labourers. You definitely don’t know anything about unions.

        • McGrath 5.3.3.1
          7 July 2014 at 8:16 pm

          Felix, BM is no Grammar Boy. That you can easily tell! BM is probably having a great laugh at your comment.

          • felix 5.3.3.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 8:39 pm

            BM is a complete flake and a total fake. And you’re a gullible fool.

            • McGrath 5.3.3.1.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 8:45 pm

              As you say, you know nothing about people.

              • felix …
                7 July 2014 at 8:58 pm

                Sure. Says the guy taking the tr0lls at face value. 🙄

                • McGrath …
                  7 July 2014 at 9:01 pm

                  Given that I know BM personally, I actually agree with him that you’re one of those scrawny, vesper riding, Rick the anarchist types.

                  • McFlock …
                    7 July 2014 at 9:14 pm

                    So if I follow your logic:
                    F believes f about B,
                    B believes b about F,
                    You believe you know !f,
                    therefore
                    you concur with B that b is true.

                  • felix …
                    7 July 2014 at 9:26 pm

                    Oh well if two of you agree on a fantasy I guess it must be true. 🙄

                    Tell me McGrath, are you a beneficiary, a tradesperson, or an office-worker?

      • Chooky 5.3.4
        7 July 2014 at 9:34 am

        @ BM…eat your heart out!

        …. most women would agree with Cunliffe on the issue of domestic violence ….where it is usually the male who commits the physical violence and the partner or ex-partner murders…..so Cunliffe has won the NZ women vote! ..(you know the ones who voted in Helen Clark again and again)…and most liberal men would agree with David Cunliffe…that domestic and partner violence is something to be ashamed of.

        .. Prime Ministers in NZ and Australia have apologised to various minority ethnic groups for past and present wrongs….so why not apologise to a gender which has been wronged?

        • Puckish Rogue 5.3.4.1
          7 July 2014 at 10:32 am

          Because David Cunliffe is not the PM and has a popularity level close to single digits which means he no mandate to speak for anyone

          • Chooky 5.3.4.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 10:54 am

            Polls lie and you might be surprised this Election at his REAL support level

            ..News for you Puckish Rogue ….David Cunliffe will be the next New Zealand Prime Minister and a very very popular one!….unlike Key

            • Paul 5.3.4.1.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 11:02 am

              Pollsters with agendas lie

              • Chooky …
                7 July 2014 at 11:07 am

                yes pollsters with agendas lie …and their poll results are fibs… for the use of msm spinners and the consumption of fuckwits

                ….goes round and round in circles

                • Puckish Rogue …
                  7 July 2014 at 12:22 pm

                  Fine you don’t believe the polls and considering the polls are dire I don’t blame, harsh reality is never pleasent however David Cunliffe is not the PM so he has no mandate to speak for me or anyone else

                  http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/07/june_public_polls-3.html

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    7 July 2014 at 12:33 pm

                    Harsh reality is never pleasant but the fact remains that he didn’t say shit on your behalf, so you’re whining about something that never happened.

                    I’m sorry you have a sub-standard right wing brain. I blame your parents.

                  • swordfish …
                    7 July 2014 at 1:36 pm

                    Cheers for linking to Kiwiblog’s June Public polls , PR.

                    I particularly liked this comment from one of Farrar’s regulars:

                    Bob (467 comments) : “What concerns me is that while National is way ahead of Labour a coalition of Labour and all the misfits contesting the election could without too much movement out poll National by a small margin…a coalition of both (Labour and Greens) would be foist on all of us. The majority vote for National would be swamped.”

                    Putting aside Bob’s remarkably poor skills in the old punctuation department, do I detect some creeping fear emanating from our good Tory chums ? Is that persistent inner voice that they just can’t seem to shake reminding them “National always plunge 5 points in the final weeks” ?

                    Still, chin up, PR. Dunkirk Spirit and all that…

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      7 July 2014 at 4:10 pm

                      It’d be the height of arrogance not to consider the possiblity and (soon to be Sir) John Key is not dumb

                    • bad12 …
                      7 July 2014 at 7:16 pm

                      Puckish, thanks for the admission of the upcoming defeat contained in your little, (soon to be), Sir Slippery of Spitoons spiel,

                      You must know that sitting PM’s don’t get slapped with the steel by Her Maj…

          • One Anonymous Bloke 5.3.4.1.2
            7 July 2014 at 10:59 am

            Which is why he spoke for himself- ‘right now’.

            Can’t you construct a reality-based argument? You can’t, can you? 😆

            • Tracey 5.3.4.1.2.1
              7 July 2014 at 3:35 pm

              it is amazing how poor the reading comprehension of our right voting commentors is… No wonder they want the education system overhauled, they assumed they are representative of it, rather than admit their own failings. We all suffer their inability to accept their failings

              • felix …
                8 July 2014 at 8:06 am

                Must be that ol’ “personal responsibility” they say they’re so fond of…

          • anker 5.3.4.1.3
            7 July 2014 at 9:05 pm

            DC was talking for himself. He wasn’t saying on behalf on the men of NZ.

            That’s why I don’t understand men being offended by the comments. Poor old John Key feels insulted…………get over yourself John.

            BTw the great PM Norman Kirk at one stage was polling at 6% for preferred PM before he was elected to the role. Ironically enough Muldoon polled much higher.

            I know who I look back on with awe and respect more. And in case I have to spell it out to right wingers, it ain’t Muldoon.

        • Tautoko Viper 5.3.4.2
          7 July 2014 at 11:07 am

          Agreed, Chooky. You don’t have to have participated yourself in a particular behaviour to experience the shame reflected on your kind. I sometimes feel ashamed to be a human when I consider the disgusting maltreatment of animals by some members of my species, eg the use of sow crates, shark finning, etc. Dissociating yourself is not the answer. We are all interconnected and interdependent in this world and this includes with the environment.

          • karol 5.3.4.2.1
            7 July 2014 at 11:19 am

            Agreed. Ditto for how I feel about some of my forebears actively participating in colonisation in Aotearoa and elsewhere – and of middle-class people, especially Pākehā who continue to demonise those in poverty: something experienced by way too many Māori and Pacific people.

        • Gosman 5.3.4.3
          7 July 2014 at 11:51 am

          Where is the evidence that most women would agree with David Cunliffe on this topic? I suggets this is merely wishful thinking on your part.

          • Rosie 5.3.4.3.1
            7 July 2014 at 12:05 pm

            Gosman, fyi, I have just written to David Cunliffe to express my gratitude to him, as a survivor of rape, for his words of solidarity with women and for speaking as a man. His words meant so much to me – they were meaningful and genuine. He spoke from a place of humility.

            I KNOW that when other women listened, who have also experienced such crime they will have felt something like a chord being struck in their hearts.

            I’ve always liked David Cunliffe but my respect for him jumped immensely last Friday.

            Quit trying to minimise the importance of his words.

            • Gosman 5.3.4.3.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 2:00 pm

              No evidence then just a gut feeling.

              • Paul …
                7 July 2014 at 2:14 pm

                You’re very busy today.
                Your masters must be very worried about the new Labour education policy….

              • felix …
                7 July 2014 at 2:14 pm

                Where is your evidence for, um, anything you’ve ever written here, ever?

              • Rosie …
                7 July 2014 at 2:32 pm

                Wow Gosman, you are so fucking inhuman sometimes. Evidence you ask. Evidence, such a hollow word when talking about crimes against women and children, so much of which goes unreported and unspoken.

                So, I don’t give a fuck about your question about evidence but you do need to be called out for assuming that it’s wishful thinking that women would agree with David Cunliffe.

                Know how I know women would agree with DC? Because over the course of time, when we’ve finally summoned the strength to talk about our experiences I’ve heard from none less than six of my immediate friends and family who have been raped. Further to that I heard the stories of students, fellow classmates who had crimes committed against them by men. I KNOW what these women feel, I’ve heard it from them. So don’t tell me all I have is a gut feeling.

                • freedom …
                  7 July 2014 at 2:44 pm

                  well said Rosie !! Kia kaha.

                  Maybe Gosman has never bothered to find out how many of those he knows have suffered, or perhaps he is such a waste of space in his real life that no woman trusts him enough to share her story with him. Either way his spiteful ignorance is exactly why Cunliffe’s sentiments were so necessary and why this dialogue NZ is having is so overdue.

                  • Rosie …
                    7 July 2014 at 3:15 pm

                    Kia Ora freedom.

                    You know, as already mentioned it’s really frustrating and disappointing that Friday’s excellent policy announcement and talk by DC to Women’s Refuge has been totally sidelined and that DC’s sincere words have been torn to shreds by some ignorant, neurotic men – not The Men Of The Standard though, you’ve all been great!

                    Change sometimes requires a push and a bit of a heave. Cunliffe has begun to do that. Some men have misunderstood the meaning of DC’s words (which is kind of hard given the full sentence but they have anyway) and are now nursing imaginary wounds to their ego’s.

                    If these men, like Gosman (and BM and the others who don’t get it) stopped thinking of their own precious selves for one second and considered what DC actually said and considered the victims it would be a start.

                • miravox …
                  7 July 2014 at 2:47 pm

                  Well said Rosie. I must write an email similar to yours to David Cunliffe.

                  I like to see the un-media-trained version of politicians every now and then. It gives a real insight in to true character. In this instance Cunliffe has shown he can understand and empathise.

                  Key? Well a throat-slitting gesture to a disturbed man as his instinctive reaction shows that when the media polish comes off he’s a pretty nasty man.

                  • Rosie …
                    7 July 2014 at 3:37 pm

                    Hi miravox, yes do, if you feel inclined to.

                    David Cunliffe is on his way to being our next PM. The howler monkeys are feeling threatened and are making a racket. He’s had everything thrown at him, in a noisy and messy manner to distract him and to his credit has remained calm and focused. Quite an achievement given the circumstances.

                    I figured it can’t hurt to drop him a line of support and a note of thanks, and in my case I really did feel quite moved by his understanding and empathy with women.

                    And speaking of the off guard version of politicians, I would recommend viewing “Back Benches”, for an insight into their more natural selves. If you’re still living overseas you can go on line to http://www.skygo.co.nz and watch it there.

                    One day in the future when Key has gone and the dust has settled maybe someone can create a video catalogue of Key’s top 20 fails and the throat slitting gesture can be included ……..or better still create it now and distribute it via social media, as a parting gesture……….

                    • miravox …
                      7 July 2014 at 8:27 pm

                      I agree Rosie. I can’t believe David Cunliffe is still standing after what’s been thrown. He’s earned my respect, that’s for sure.

                      Thanks for the link. I’ve missed backbenchers since I’ve been away. I’ve been down to watch the show live a couple of times a few years ago and yes, I agree it really does let you get to know our representatives a bit more.

                • Anne …
                  7 July 2014 at 3:31 pm

                  Evidence you ask. Evidence, such a hollow word when talking about crimes against women and children, so much of which goes unreported and unspoken.

                  I would hazard a guess up to 80 to 90% go unreported and justice is never served for those victims. That is the ultimate tragedy.

                  Why do they go unreported? Because in the past anyway, women had to face up to predominantly males when they tried to seek justice, and they knew their stories were likely to be rejected which represented a further twist of the knife in the victim’s already fragile emotional state.

                  No gut feeling there either Gosman. That is what happened to me. The crimes didn’t include rape as such, but were nevertheless very distressing and frightening.

      • KJT 5.3.5
        7 July 2014 at 7:35 pm

        As real “hard working, male, working class New Zealander”, not a parrot, whose hardest days work is staggering to the water cooler, or looking on his computer for the latest National BS to repeat, I am entirely in support of what David Cunliffe actually said, not what he is misreported to have said. .

        Real men, do not condone other men, raping, killing and beating up, women.

        And that includes the overwhelming majority of the really tough guys, that work with me.

        In a job that I expect would have BM crying for mercy in a week.

        I apologise too, that we are still not doing enough to prevent it.

        • BM 5.3.5.1
          7 July 2014 at 7:45 pm

          In a job that I expect would have BM crying for mercy in a week

          .

          Probably would these days, I’m bit bit soft compared to what I use to be.

    • bad12 5.4
      7 July 2014 at 9:34 am

      Tend to agree with you VTO, Cunliffe could have made an impassioned plea that ALL men must face up to the domestic violence that they are the perpetrators of, and, looked good doing it,

      Obviously He was talking to ‘that’ audience, but, He should have realized now that ‘anything’ He says is going to be used against Him,

      As part of that speech He should have had the figures for all domestic violence to quote from so instead of letting the media ‘spin’ the speech into an anti-male rant He could have made that speech pointing at all those who indulge in such violence and then made the point about us men, ALL of us owning up to and stopping our share of that domestic violence,

      To a certain extent Cunliffe is in a damned if He does and damned if He doesn’t situation, had He made a blah blah blah bland speech to Woman’s Refuge it is doubtful anything would have been reported…

    • Enough is Enough 5.5
      7 July 2014 at 12:09 pm

      Willy Jackson’s comment was a good one.

      Maori are disproportionately represented in crime statistics. Yet he is proud to be a Maori and would never apologise for being one.

      In a similar vein, I condemn domestic violence but I am proud to be male. I cannot apologisee for being male

      • karol 5.5.1
        7 July 2014 at 12:11 pm

        False equivalence.

        Hint – it’s about which groups have the most power in society. And power is a complex issue – people can have power in one aspect of their lives, while being disempowered in other ways.

        • Enough is Enough 5.5.1.1
          7 July 2014 at 12:20 pm

          That may be correct but is far too academic.

          This guy is trying to win popular support in an election campaign against a hostile media. He has to do what needs to be done to win the election. I don’t know who the fuck is advising him but his apology was only ever going to be reported one way.

          As has been pointed out everywhere, he could have delivered the clear message without confusing males and turning a positive message into a media storm.

          We have to do whatever it takes to dispose of this government. Removing statements from speeches which going to spun in negative light is not too difficult.

          • karol 5.5.1.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 12:28 pm

            sigh It’s getting a lot of support from women and many men. It’s just some men who are complaining – albeit some with access to the MSM. And the fall back on “it’s about the game” shows everything that is wrong with current politics: which just works to turn off a significant part of the electorate.

            Too much poll watching, too little standing up for principles and values. Ultimately, that just plays in the interests of the already powerful, and works against the interests of the left.

            PS: Guys like Willie Jackson and Bryce Edwards, who have a track record of being anti-gender politics/anti-feminist, would oppose Cunliffe’s apology, no matter what part of the electorate cycle he said it in.

            • Enough is Enough 5.5.1.1.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 2:21 pm

              There is probably nothing incorrect with what you are saying.

              However politics is about winning. You can be as righteous and as correct you like in in opposition. But you can’t do anything meaningful unless you have the treasury benches.

              It is all well and good for you to post and sigh on the Standard about the evils of society. Only the converted and Gosman are over here reading it. What you sigh about does not matter in the greater scheme of things.

              Cunliffe on the other hand has an election to win. He has an election to win for us on the left. He needs to get people, who currently like Key, to change their vote. Apologising for being a man will not do that.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.5.1.1.1.2
              7 July 2014 at 2:30 pm

              Ultimately, that just plays in the interests of the already powerful, and works against the interests of the left.

              Although I agree with you it’s not the interests of the Left that it works against but the interests of society as a whole.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 5.5.1.1.2
            7 July 2014 at 12:28 pm

            How many times does it have to be explained that Labour’s campaign strategy is to by-pass the media? Bland speeches won’t win the bully’s affections.

            ‘Labour are running scared of poor media coverage. The endless string of safe bland speeches, according to chief party strategist “Enough is Enough”, is a result of the purge on statements which can be “spun in a negative light”.

            What has Labour to fear from media exposure? What are they hiding?’

            headdesk

            • Enough is Enough 5.5.1.1.2.1
              7 July 2014 at 2:24 pm

              Labour expects to win by by-passing the media?

              Where have you heard that strategy?

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                7 July 2014 at 2:27 pm

                From the horse’s mouth.

                Labour’s advantage has always been it’s base of activists around the country. That worked for us the last time Labour won in 2005, an election in which David Talbot also played a key role. This year Labour is running the largest grassroots campaign in the Party’s history, having already had over 185,000 face to face, person to person contacts with voters.

                • Enough is Enough …
                  7 July 2014 at 2:36 pm

                  Does that say we are by-passing media?

                  I guarantee you that notwithstanding their hostility, the MSM will be invited to more Labour campaign events in 2014 than in any other year.

                  We have various strategies, one of which you have highlighted, but by-passing the media is not on of those strategies.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    7 July 2014 at 2:45 pm

                    Do you suppose that hostility you mentioned is going to dissipate if they can only make bland speeches with all potential controversy removed?

                    • Enough is Enough …
                      7 July 2014 at 3:27 pm

                      What makes you say we can only make bland speeches? Actually can you explain what on earth you mean by bland speech?

                      Removing inflammatory comments is not in my view being bland.

                      I repeat this is about doing whatever it takes to win. It is not until we convince 100,000+ Key voters to back us, that we can get in and make the meaningful change we all agree on.

                      (I’m still a bit lost about where it was decided that we by-pass the media as a campaign strategy?)

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 July 2014 at 3:35 pm

                      ‘Inflammatory’ – or necessary, or too little too late, or brave, or open-hearted and respectful.

                      They all depend upon perspective.

                      As for my paraphrasing of ‘face to face, person to person contacts with voters’ as ‘bypassing the media’, I take your point about media strategy.

                    • Enough is Enough …
                      7 July 2014 at 3:40 pm

                      Anyway, its been good chatting with you OAB.

                      Whatever strategy we take into this scrap, I hope in three months we are debating the priorities of the new Green/Labour government, and can forget about Key and his scum tory mob forever.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 July 2014 at 3:54 pm

                      Gone forever? But who will provide the wailing and whining and bitterness and be the subject of mirth and delighted faux commiserations then?

                      Nose to the grindstone. We’ll bring the grindstone, the right can provide the nose 🙂

                    • KJT …
                      7 July 2014 at 8:04 pm

                      It doesn’t really matter what Labour or the Greens say.

                      The media will mis-interpret, mis-quote, and lie, to keep to the neo-liberal gospel, regardless.

        • Gosman 5.5.1.2
          7 July 2014 at 2:04 pm

          Ahh! The old only people with power can be racist/sexist/prejudiced in any way shape or form canard. I especially enjoy leftist trying to use this to excuse racist comments from non white people. The problem for them is you have to have majored in a liberal arts degree to really understand the argument and therefore most people likely think it is nonsensical.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 5.5.1.2.1
            7 July 2014 at 2:31 pm

            Karol says: “…which groups have the most power in society. And power is a complex issue – people can have power in one aspect of their lives, while being disempowered in other ways.”

            Gosman reads: “…only people with power can be racist/sexist/prejudiced in any way shape or form…”

            It’s important to realise that right wing stupidity is born of stupidity, or “Gosman’s Bias”, not malice.

          • felix 5.5.1.2.2
            7 July 2014 at 2:39 pm

            Nope, prejudice is equally available to anyone.

            If you’re going to criticize someone’s ideas you should at least attempt to understand what they are.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 5.5.2
        7 July 2014 at 12:20 pm

        EiE, you didn’t. Cunliffe didn’t either, he said he was sorry to be one ‘right now’.

        The practice of quoting out of context, sometimes referred to as “contextomy”, is a logical fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.

        Wikipedia.

        If you can’t apologise for being a man right now can you at least man up and apologise for your dishonesty?

      • blue leopard 5.5.3
        7 July 2014 at 12:41 pm

        @ Enough is Enough

        That is well and good that you respond the way that you do, Enough is Enough, but should Cunliffe be demonised for responding differently toward the matter?

        Or are men all required to respond in the same way at all times or all hell will break loose towards those that dare to step out of the strait-jacket-like culture they are in?

        Are men allowed to ‘step out of line’ and respond honestly to a matter?
        Or is there a huge peer pressure on men that requires them to respond only in a ‘suitable’ and pre-determined way?

        If so, that doesn’t sound like much fun. Perhaps that phenomenon needs to be stirred up a bit?

        I think Mr Cunliffe has showed he is courageous in speaking out on a number of matters that appear to go by ignored – the first example was what a failure neoliberalism is, another was the view he put forward about Key needing to ‘get out a bit’ and stop ignoring the poverty that is in existence in New Zealand, another was 100% employment and this talk re domestic violence is another example.

        People often don’t like having problems they want to ignore being spoken about – when the dialogue becomes about ‘how’ someone has raised the issue it starts looking like the fear of addressing the issue is winning out – and this really is the main way I am interpreting the reaction toward what Mr Cunliffe said.

        Mr Cunliffe’s comments have boosted a dialogue that needs to happen.
        Problems are not usually solved by ignoring them.

        Mr Cunliffe’s propensity of addressing issues that some prefer to leave ignored leads me to believe he will be a very fine and beneficial Prime Minister for the greatest number of New Zealanders – happily including some of whom have been systematically ignored for a very long time.

        Mr Cunliffe is not a coward and this will be good for New Zealand so long as New Zealander’s don’t allow smoke, mirrors and fear rule their decisions.

  6. Chooky 6
    7 July 2014 at 8:54 am

    More on Media Bias

    ‘$16 per hour minimum wage, computers for all children and smaller classes – msm still call it an election bribe’

    By Martyn Bradbury / July 7, 2014

    Where were the mainstream media’s calls of ‘election bribe’ when Key hinted at even more tax cuts on top of the billions he has already borrowed for tax cuts?

    So now we are seeing actual policy, the bias in the mainstream media is more perverse than ever. If you compare the claims of ‘election bribes’ which have accompanied Labour’s announcements of $16 per hour minimum wage, computers for all children, ending voluntary school donations and smaller classes with the slow luxury hand job the mainstream media afforded Key’s conference a week earlier, it is clear once and for all that the entire mainstream media are all part of #TeamKey.

    Where were the mainstream media’s calls of ‘election bribe’ when Key hinted at even more tax cuts on top of the billions he has already borrowed for tax cuts?

    Labour have to battle sexism, classism and bias to get their message across, but no matter how the shrill beige brigade of Gower, Espiner, Garner, Henry, Hosking, all newspapers and TV stations get, a free computer, no school donations, $16 per hour and smaller class sizes decide elections, not mainstream media poison.

    • Gosman 6.1
      7 July 2014 at 9:08 am

      You don’t borrow for tax cuts. You might have to borrow as a result of tax cuts but in that case you are borrowing to fund activities not giving the money to individuals. The fact Mr Bradbury doesn’t seems to know or understand this is reflective of his general ignorance of economic issues.

      • bad12 6.1.1
        7 July 2014 at 9:18 am

        What a grand piece of hair-splitting Gosman, you don’t borrow for tax cuts you just borrow to pay for the things tax cuts made unaffordable,

        You should be Bill English’s speech writer…

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1
          7 July 2014 at 9:25 am

          hair-splitting? Gossie is down to nano-metre territory here.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1.1.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 9:31 am

            Gosman has gone beyond simple hair-splitting into Tetrapyloctomy.

          • bad12 6.1.1.1.2
            7 July 2014 at 9:40 am

            Probably only deserving of a series of these attached to any further comments, 🙄 🙄 🙄 ,

            If there is such a thing as being brilliantly stupid then Gosman sits at the top of the class…

        • Gosman 6.1.1.2
          7 July 2014 at 10:13 am

          It is not hair splitting. If there is an economic downturn and the tax take is not as much as expected and borrowing has to increase you are not borrowing to pay for not raising taxes. You are paying to fund the activities of the state that the government has decided it wants to provide. It can choose to eliminate the deficit by either raising taxes or cutrting spending or both.

          • framu 6.1.1.2.1
            7 July 2014 at 10:20 am

            yes its hair splitting – and its deliberate

            you have a budget
            you then reduce your income
            which leaves a hole in said budget
            you borrow to cover the hole

            its not like the hole in the budget that resulted was unexpected or not forewarned

          • freedom 6.1.1.2.2
            7 July 2014 at 10:30 am

            Is that when the smart finance guys implement a negative revenue income distribution using rebalanced debt expenditure credits to outsource the liability interest of reduced outcome projections ?

          • freedom 6.1.1.2.3
            7 July 2014 at 10:40 am

            Notice how Gosman has now shifted from talking about “tax cuts’ to ‘reduced tax revenue from an economic downturn’ ?

            totally different things Gosman

            • Gosman 6.1.1.2.3.1
              7 July 2014 at 11:53 am

              No, the principle is the same especially in relation to the tax switch National implemented in the second round of tax cuts. They were designed to be fiscally neutral in that the income tax cuts were offset by a GST rise.

              • felix …
                7 July 2014 at 12:57 pm

                Oh no you don’t. You said “as a result of tax cuts”.

                So unless you’re now arguing that tax cuts cause economic downturns, you’d best put the goalposts back where you found them.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                7 July 2014 at 3:34 pm

                They were designed to be fiscally neutral in that the income tax cuts were offset by a GST rise.

                No they weren’t. That was just another lie from National. They were designed to cut the taxes on the rich via the income tax cuts, increase taxes upon the poor via the GST tax hike and decrease the governments overall income so that the cutting of services could be portrayed as even more necessary so that National’s ideological cutting of state services could be passed through with less community backlash.

                • Gosman …
                  7 July 2014 at 3:48 pm

                  Evidence for this please? This should be easy to identify as the advice about the fiscal impact of the tax changes was provided by Treasury. If what you are stating is accurate then Treasury should have identified the negative fiscal impacts well before they happened.

                  • felix …
                    7 July 2014 at 4:24 pm

                    Gosman, above you argued that tax cuts cause economic downturns. Why the road to Damascus conversion?

                    • Gosman …
                      7 July 2014 at 4:29 pm

                      I’ve never argued that Tax cuts or even increased government spending cause a downturn. They can cause long term fiscal damage depending on when they are implemented though.

                    • felix …
                      7 July 2014 at 7:13 pm

                      Gosman you are lying.

                      In this very thread you said

                      You don’t borrow for tax cuts. You might have to borrow as a result of tax cuts

                      That statement was called out as hair-splitting, and you responded with

                      It is not hair splitting. If there is an economic downturn and the tax take is not as much as expected and borrowing has to increase you are not borrowing to pay for not raising taxes.

                      So either you are arguing that the result of tax cuts is economic downturn, or the second statement was irrelevant to the first, in which case you still haven’t addressed the borrowing for tax cuts.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    7 July 2014 at 4:32 pm

                    Treasury Report: Personal Tax Cut Package: KiwiSaver and R&D Tax Credit Options
                    Table one shows the costs that Treasury projects how much the tax cuts will cost. So, it seems that Treasury did identify them. Can’t find Treasuries advice on the GST tax rises – except their advice to raise it to 17.5% or 20%.

                    Treasuries advice is usually as bad for the country as National are.

                    Then we just have to look at what has actually happened and National’s denials about that reality to know that that was exactly what they planned.

                    • Gosman …
                      7 July 2014 at 5:00 pm

                      If you can’t find the advice on the GST rise then you only have one side of the debate. Noone is disputing that reducing personal tax rates would reduce government revenue. The argument is whether the revenue lost would be offset by the revenue gained via GST increase.

                      As for the quality of Treasury advicem I don’t see Labour nor anyone else likely to be leading the next government stating that they would ditch them.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 July 2014 at 5:05 pm

                      If they follow the shiny new Key/McCully standard I suspect Maklouf may be considering his position.

                      Who needs faith-based nitwits interfering in policy matters?

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      7 July 2014 at 5:12 pm

                      The argument is whether the revenue lost would be offset by the revenue gained via GST increase.

                      Well, it’s already been proved that it didn’t.

                  • KJT …
                    7 July 2014 at 8:07 pm

                    Treasury predictions?? LOL.

          • bad12 6.1.1.2.4
            7 July 2014 at 11:20 am

            Right Gosman, you can cut taxes, realize in the middle of an economic downturn that your lower tax take now makes ‘stuff’ unaffordable and borrow to plug the fiscal deficit, or, add Government activity that requires more monies to pay for them and borrow for those activities,

            Its a rather elongated path to the conclusion that Bill English,(and you), are raving fucking idiots, why didn’t you just cut to the chase,

            This 🙄 is you Gosman, the old adage of piping up and proving stupidity could well have had its genesis in your musings…

            • Gosman 6.1.1.2.4.1
              7 July 2014 at 11:58 am

              At least it wasn’t as bad as Cullen massively increasing Government spending at the start of the GFC downturn AND cutting taxes leading to the deficit which National has finally brought under control.

              • framu …
                7 July 2014 at 12:20 pm

                thats that decade of deficits BS again isnt it

              • freedom …
                7 July 2014 at 12:21 pm

                “the deficit which National has finally brought under control.”

                http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/newzealand

                Even if our debt magically froze at this current level and English’s ideas consistently brought in a minimum of $2 billion a year in surpluses, it would still take another thirty five years to pay off what National has borrowed in only six years. Yes that is the reality of our nation’s debt, but you only want to look at the deficit, a numbers fiddle that ignores the now unavoidable hardship needlessly dumped upon our country’s future.

                “There will be a small surplus next year, and increasing surpluses are forecast over time. ….But these are just forecasts and there is a lot of work to do to make them a reality.”

                Bill English Budget Speech 2014

                • freedom …
                  7 July 2014 at 12:36 pm

                  and before you try to use Christchurch as a scapegoat for the debt…

                  “On current estimates, the Government’s contribution to the rebuild is expected to be $15.4 billion, of which $7.3 billion will be incurred by the Earthquake Commission, net of reinsurance proceeds.” Budget 2014

                  So in reality the Government has only needed $8.1 billion to meet its costs for CHCH and even this is a projection out to 2018.

                  • Gosman …
                    7 July 2014 at 2:22 pm

                    Noone is blaming the Christchurch earthquake for the najority of the rise in debt. This was already predicted under the spending regime put in place by the last Labour led government. See the 2008 PREFU for details.

                    • freedom …
                      7 July 2014 at 2:34 pm

                      Funny isn’t it how often you say that, yet Key and English declare to the public as often as they can that the rebuild of Christchurch and the GFC are the biggest contributors to the rising debt and then there is that niggling reality how in 2008 Bill English calmly and openly declared “the books are in good shape”.

                      Either they desperately need your help to build themselves better spin, or they just don’t like telling New Zealand the truth?

                    • Gosman …
                      7 July 2014 at 3:51 pm

                      I don’t think they ever stated the budget deficit was in a good shape. Certainly government debt was low which helped weather the storm post 2008 however the budget was a mess as evidenced in the 2008 Prefu.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      7 July 2014 at 4:47 pm

                      Personal responsibility means it’s always Labour’s fault. Pfft.

                      More evidence of “Gosman’s Bias”.

                    • KJT …
                      7 July 2014 at 8:09 pm

                      “This is the ……….. that Government has been preparing for” Bill English after National was elected.

      • freedom 6.1.2
        7 July 2014 at 9:22 am

        “You don’t borrow for tax cuts.” really? then where does the lost revenue come from? If you do not collect the tax to pay for the services you must borrow the money or get rid of the services. A tax cut is not the government giving money back and your own words show you are aware of that, so why frame it that way?

      • phillip ure 6.1.3
        7 July 2014 at 9:28 am

        “..You don’t borrow for tax cuts. You might have to borrow as a result of tax cuts..”

        ..brilliant..!..just brilliant..!

        • felix 6.1.3.1
          7 July 2014 at 9:39 am

          My car doesn’t use any petrol. I use quite a bit though, and I find the petrol tank of my car is the best place to keep it until I need to use it to propel my car.

          • phillip ure 6.1.3.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 9:43 am

            there’s a meme there..screaming to be brought to life..

            john key:..’i don’t believe in small class sizes..i just sent my son to kings’ college..because they have such a nice uniform..and not too many people have to wear that uniform in their classes..’

            • felix 6.1.3.1.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 9:49 am

              Our rivers are 100% pure. They have to be, or they’d never absorb all that cowshit we throw into them.

              • phillip ure …
                7 July 2014 at 9:56 am

                john key:..’we don’t have a poverty/homeless-problem..those 15,000 men/women/children ‘sleeping-rough’ in auckland..

                ..they are just enjoying the ‘freedom of the road’..i ackshully envy them..in some ways..’

                • greywarbler …
                  7 July 2014 at 10:07 am

                  Oh that’s good. LOL phillip and felix

                • phillip ure …
                  7 July 2014 at 10:37 am

                  john key:..’i know the social chaos/anarchy we will face if we legalise cannabis..

                  ..’cos..’cos..my holiday home is in hawaii..where marijuana is legal..

                  ..oh..!..hang on..!..’

            • Te Reo Putake 6.1.3.1.1.2
              7 July 2014 at 10:12 am

              I’m always promoting New Zealand, akshully … from my home in Hawaii.

              • Gosman …
                7 July 2014 at 10:42 am

                How’s tourism numbers in NZ going?

                • Te Reo Putake …
                  7 July 2014 at 10:50 am

                  Numbers up slightly, median expenditure down significantly. Why do you ask?

              • phillip ure …
                7 July 2014 at 10:46 am

                paula bennett:..”..it’s just not true the rumour that i took all the ladders when i left henderson..

                ..and anyway..henderson just has crap single-level houses…

                ..and i left them chairs/each other to stand on..’

                • phillip ure …
                  7 July 2014 at 10:51 am

                  hekia parata:..”..i do not speak in riddles..!..my c.v. will tell you i am multi-lingual..

                  ..’cos i am also fluent in bureaucratese..’

                  • phillip ure …
                    7 July 2014 at 10:55 am

                    bill english:..’..my pope tells me i should care for the poor…but i don’t..!..i ‘don’t care!’…

                    ..and i go to church every sunday..

                    ..and i get down on my knees..

                    ..and i pray that arbeit macht frei…

                    ..will i go to hell..?..”

                    • phillip ure …
                      7 July 2014 at 11:00 am

                      tony ryall:..

                      “..it is not true that i have a starring role in ‘coneheads:..the return of the natzis’..

                      ..it’s only a bit-part..”

                    • phillip ure …
                      7 July 2014 at 11:05 am

                      gerry brownlee:..’look..!..i did not eat my press-secretaries..

                      ….i’ve got one of them here…now..

                      ..tucked away in/under my third-fold..’

      • mikesh 6.1.4
        7 July 2014 at 5:06 pm

        “You don’t borrow for tax cuts. You might have to borrow as a result of tax cuts but in that case you are borrowing to fund activities not giving the money to individuals. The fact Mr Bradbury doesn’t seems to know or understand this is reflective of his general ignorance of economic issues.”

        True … … but trivial.

    • Paul 6.2
      7 July 2014 at 9:26 am

      I must say the media is more biased in 2014 than it’s ever been before.
      Would suggest the Tories are desperate to get in at all costs to push through their agenda.
      But what is it?
      All we hear is ‘Team Key’.
      What are the policies they are going to impose on the country that they don’t want to be discussed, while we focus on all the nonsense the media tries to engage us with?

      • Ant 6.2.1
        7 July 2014 at 9:57 am

        Yeah it’s getting to a laughable point, whenever I bother to browse the stuff website it’s always a fun game to guess if they’re going to lead a Labour policy announcement with National’s negative spin.

        stuff like:

        “Labour release stupid education policy”
        – The National Party says Labour are shit

    • vto 6.3
      7 July 2014 at 9:28 am

      ” a free computer, no school donations, $16 per hour and smaller class sizes decide elections, not mainstream media poison.”

      I think this is on the mark. If labour just keep punching out policy then it may just come to dominate the election rather than huffery puffery bullshit and “presidential style” campaigning,

      Keep pushing the buttons of the things that matter. People take their vote very seriously.

      • Chooky 6.3.1
        7 July 2014 at 9:43 am

        +100…but Labour needs to work on the msm and on radionz …to get a fair hearing and get their message out

        ….Labour needs to make their eduction policy message short and punchy…where is Chris Hipkins?

    • Rosie 6.4
      7 July 2014 at 9:55 am

      Well said Chooky, and I agree “the bias in the mainstream media is more perverse than ever.”

      To repeat my 2 cents from yesterday, I do feel we, the Left, can and will win this election. I feel it in my waters and have done for some time. The angst of 2011 has gone.

      Our biggest threat to success, now surely must be The Media: APN, Fearfacts, TV and RNZ.

      This guy is our nemesis:

      http://neetflux.tumblr.com/post/90801559757

      What to do? We can assist the hard working campaign volunteers by doing our best to talk to our friends, families, workmates about the importance of voting and finding out what their concerns and hopes are. We can counteract the media spin person to person. Every effort means something.

      Speaking of efforts I now have to get my People’s Power Ohariu hat on and get billboards made. We are stepping up our production output as we get closer to the election. We have to unseat Dunne, the nemesis of Ohariu and of every person in NZ. latest billboard will be “Hey Peter! We don’t want a “willing seller” for our Ohariu MP”

      He’s gotta go!

      http://neetflux.tumblr.com/post/90721613222

      • greywarbler 6.4.1
        7 July 2014 at 10:15 am

        Rosie
        A cunning way of bringing ‘The Hair’s’ superficiality on show could be to get different hairdressers from the area to offer him each week a new haircut and style in an advert that would be sponsored by the Ohariu group you belong to with a large message of :
        We want a new style in politics and a new face.

        Something like that may break through the stubborn smugness and almost impregnable sensibilities of NACTUNITED supporters.

        • Rosie 6.4.1.1
          7 July 2014 at 10:38 am

          Lol Warbs.

          We do allude to his hair in our billboards (this one was in response to the Ohariu electorate NO vote in the asset sales referendum)

          http://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=63029

          but tend to stick to raising awareness around his political actions, rather than his follicle actions. Anyone who wants to do so however may be running out of time, as that lush mane has really diminished in these last 3 years. He sports a fairly short (and thinning) do these days.

      • Chooky 6.4.2
        7 July 2014 at 10:56 am

        great work Rosie… i am really looking forward to Dunne’s going …and will be drinking a very savoured glass of champagne on it ..on Election night!.

        ..he has been a fly in the Labour ointment in many many ways…and a fly in many ointments

  7. Paul 7
    7 July 2014 at 9:40 am

    Such a pity that the New Zealand government does not take the same care for its citizens as the Japanese government.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11288704

    Herald bias watch.
    Note is is the Japanese who are accused of taking ”the hard line” rather than New Zealand as they slavishly follow the neo-liberal policies of large corporates.

  8. phillip ure 8
    7 July 2014 at 9:49 am

    oh..btw..

    ..those who been serially accusing me of running a smear-campaign against labour/grns in this forum….

    ..might like to look at my comments/reactions to cunnliffes’ speech..

    ..the exercise might help you to differentiate in the future..

    ..between ‘smear-campaigns’..and ‘fair-comment’…

    ..eh..?

    • karol 8.1
      7 July 2014 at 10:09 am

      Or you could look at how some of us, at this stage in the electoral cycle, are focusing on the positives of opposition parties that we are not voting for, and limiting the criticisms.

      • phillip ure 8.1.1
        7 July 2014 at 11:23 am

        keeping ‘on message’..?..nah..!..sorry..

        ..i’d rather call what i see..

        • karol 8.1.1.1
          7 July 2014 at 11:32 am

          It’s about seeing the bigger picture, then making calls based on that.

          • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 1:01 pm

            Or you could look at how some of us, at this stage in the electoral cycle, are focusing on the positives of opposition parties that we are not voting for, and limiting the criticisms.

            Exactly. Even though some days its like suppressing Tourette’s…

          • phillip ure 8.1.1.1.2
            7 July 2014 at 4:28 pm

            @ karol..

            ..yep…that’s what i try to do…

            ..and please..let’s not pretend i am/have been the only person criticising labours’ apparent lurch to the right..

            ..but if the promises made by parker/cunnliffe translate into policy..

            ..they will have done a triple-lurch…

            ..a lurch to the left..

            ..then a lurch back to the right to calm/settle them down..

            ..and then back to the left again..

            ..(that’s one way to keep fit..)

        • bad12 8.1.1.2
          7 July 2014 at 11:54 am

          …through a cloud of dope smoke…(the bit you forgot)…

        • greywarbler 8.1.1.3
          7 July 2014 at 12:21 pm

          @Phillip
          This is a left-leaning blog. I think you regard yourself as such. Do not fall over it might hurt us more than it hurts you!

          And the left needs to keep working to be standing tall from now till after election time. Your personal desire to exclaim at anything from the left that deserves criticism should be constrained until after the election. Can you do this?

          We do not need screeds of irritable interchanges. They are not more important than the most important Labour-Green et al advancement. Anything else just deflects thinking from the main task: a change to a left-leaning government.

      • Karen 8.1.2
        7 July 2014 at 11:28 am

        +100 Karol

      • phillip ure 8.1.3
        7 July 2014 at 11:32 am

        have you been saying a lot of ‘positive’ things about internet/mana..?

        ..i must have missed that..

        • karol 8.1.3.1
          7 July 2014 at 11:33 am

          Judge for yourself. I make positive statements on things that are worth highlighting.

          • phillip ure 8.1.3.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 12:42 pm

            can you remember any ‘positive-statements’ you may have made about internet/mana..?

            • phillip ure 8.1.3.1.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 5:23 pm

              ‘cos y’see karol..if you aren’t nuanced/critical..you lurch over into being a cheerleader..no matter what..

              ..and so clearly you are a lab/grn cheerleader..

              ..and fair enough..

              ..i am an obvious cheerleader for three causes…ending both animal-slavery and cannabis prohibition..and ending poverty..

              ..so i hammer away at those subjects..(the first two quixotic as far as most lab/grns are concerned..)

              ..and the last showing some possibilities of movement..

              ..so of course i will keep hammering away at that..

              ..but aside from that i try to be as objective as i can..(my commentaries on parliament show that..)

              ..and if that means criticising lab/grn/whoever..so be it..

              ..and really..the facts of the matter are that adult-poverty has not even been mentioned by anyone yet,..

              ..so until it is..it is likely i will still continue to argue that ending-poverty for all..case..

              • phillip ure …
                7 July 2014 at 7:06 pm

                and the fact that should drive this poverty-debate..

                ..is that there are 15,000 men/women?children sleeping-rough in auckland…

                ..tonite..

                ..if that is not healed/repaired..

                ..we are still a sick-society..

                • bad12 …
                  7 July 2014 at 7:28 pm

                  A debate with yourself Phillip???, should just about be able to carry that moot, i await with interest a degeneration into a fit of self abuse,(then again some would suggest the current trail of comments is just that)…

    • The Al1en 8.2
      7 July 2014 at 11:43 am

      “those who been serially accusing me of running a smear-campaign against labour/grns in this forum……might like to look at my comments/reactions to cunnliffes’ speech….the exercise might help you to differentiate in the future….between ‘smear-campaigns’..and ‘fair-comment’…..eh..?”

      I noticed that after you were caught bang to rights with your serial smears and thought the couple of pro Labour quotes would give you ammunition to negate the well made point.
      Predictable and transparent I thought as I deciphered your comments, and here we are, a couple of days later with an “oh..btw..”, look at me I’m fair and balanced.
      I’m definitely calling deliberate act to protect shot credibility.

      I should have been a psychologist or something. 😆

      • phillip ure 8.2.1
        7 July 2014 at 11:49 am

        ‘..or something’..

        • The Al1en 8.2.1.1
          7 July 2014 at 11:51 am

          If there is a bs detector job out there, I’m your man. 😉

          • phillip ure 8.2.1.1.1
            7 July 2014 at 12:12 pm

            “..If there is a bs job out there, I’m your man..”

            ..there you are..corrected it for you..

            • The Al1en 8.2.1.1.1.1
              7 July 2014 at 12:28 pm

              There you go Hamilton, minimum twenty hours a week on the cards, $15 an hour and I’m all good for an immediate start.
              Expert at sniffing out bs merchants and exposing dirty old men bosses.

              What are you waiting for?

              • Chooky …
                7 July 2014 at 3:42 pm

                @The Allen…you would make a very good counsellor…i think you handle Phil well ( smirk) …….seriously this could be your next vocation….you could specialise in employment/union/sexual harrassment / dispute /matters

                • The Al1en …
                  7 July 2014 at 4:58 pm

                  As a counsellor I’d be an insult to the profession, but if I could imagine a job I reckon I’d be good at, then that yankee TV show (no idea what it’s called) where the solo dad English guy susses out the people involved in legal cases and tells when they’re lying or have something to hide. That would be up my alley.

                  Failing that, a reply to my CV, any reply, would go down well.
                  If this is a lifestyle choice like PB claims, it’s pretty suckish.

    • bad12 8.3
      7 July 2014 at 11:48 am

      Phillip strikes a pose…

  9. Jrobin 9
    7 July 2014 at 10:18 am

    The funny thing is though that I felt Hekia’s prominence backfired. She is such a patronising jargon ridden bore. The more she said the worse it sounded. Even Mr Consummate politician John Key sounded rattled and unwell. Keep giving them enough rope and they’ll be dangling from their own lack of policies
    . Does anyone else get the feeling the Nats are hiding their real intentions for post election. A striking lack of policy release. Only English’s admission (he often tells the truth by mistake) that they intend to implement the most profound changes in social policy ever seen…..Sorry can’t remember exactly what said or where he said this, at a Business dinner I think, but it made me feel very uneasy (again). Has anyone else noticed his comment more precisely. It was hushed up rapidly by the minders I suspect. Don’t frighten the horses Bill.

  10. greywarbler 10
    7 July 2014 at 10:19 am

    @ karol
    Good point to keep in mind from now till the big EE.

  11. Paul 11
    7 July 2014 at 10:36 am

    Herald bias watch #3 (for the day)

    They note Brown might ‘break key election’, yet have ignored Key’s broken promises. promisehttp://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11289002

  12. Paul 12
    7 July 2014 at 10:39 am

    Fearfax keeps focusing on personality…anything to avoid discussing the issues their elite owners want us to be ignorant about.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10240016/Peters-fuming-at-Horans-time-wasting

    • greywarbler 12.1
      7 July 2014 at 11:11 am

      Fearfax is not interested in NZ as a place, a country or a people. We are a location where they own assets which they want a good return on. Sensation and personalities are what keep the punters buying, the real issues require deeper thought and time by people who apply themselves and care about the integrity of their work

      Fearfax management woke up and thought this morning – ‘What do I think about NZ?’ The next thought was ‘Hey, I’ve just remembered – I don’t care’.

      (They have hooked all their administration phone contact facilities away from NZ and NZ people to the Philippines. We are cheaper than Oz, but there is more money to be squeezed out of the company by doing the back office work outside the country.
      Report to some extent on the country, sell within the country, but do not employ or spend within the country if cheaper elsewhere.
      Perfect neo liberal solution for maximum money extraction and an example to all of ‘excellent’ neo lib business practice.)

  13. greywarbler 13
    7 July 2014 at 10:40 am

    Some interesting points about a Tauranga assault involving family violence where there was a protection order. The mother spoke this morning about the repeated assaults according to the boy, which were followed by him having a reported hospital stay of two days. And the unexpected disappointing lack of proper police and justice process in the aftermath.

    The boy’s story was denied by the Tauranga man, who was so well known that he was able to get complete name suppression with the help of Paul Mabey QC, and his denials of events were backed by two or three compatriots who were full or partial witnesses to the event. The police dropped the charges down and down, and appeared to not want the mother of the boy to be informed about their dealings with the matter. She questions their integrity and behaviour.

    I wonder if there is something in the air around Tauranga and Mt Maunganui police stations that is inimical to females?

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/249062/police-apologise-to-mother-of-victim
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/10237131/Police-mishandle-assault-on-11-year-old
    The father pleaded guilty last year and was discharged without conviction. Judge Josephine Bouchier permanently suppressed his name,… The boy’s mother, who has full custody of him, said the apology came only after she complained to the Independent Police Conduct Authority. …

    It is the latest Tauranga prosecution to cause concern, after an accused rapist who had a violence charge dropped went on to offend again, and a man who assaulted a woman, causing injuries that led to her death, was charged with only a minor offence.

    Is it this case?
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10852602
    [The boy now can’t see properly out of one eye, has a sore back, is suffering headaches and nightmares and has been left “devastated” by the alleged assault, the source told the Bay of Plenty Times.
    The police officer in charge of the case did not return phone calls.]

    • karol 13.1
      7 July 2014 at 10:47 am

      Yes something doesn’t add up. So the defense are claiming there is no evidence of the extent of the injuries – though they admit some kind of assault took place, and the police believe the boy’s claims about the extent of the assault and injuries. The articles state the boy was taken to hospital, so there must be a hospital record.

      • greywarbler 13.1.1
        7 July 2014 at 11:00 am

        @karol
        Yes, I started off a bit disturbed. Put the comment in with links and quotes, read some more and added a few more quotes. It is unpleasant to see this happening while remembering the Mt Maunganui rapes. It’s as if the Tauranga area has a bad stain the police and justice system there cannot or will not wipe clean.

  14. phillip ure 14
    7 July 2014 at 12:16 pm

    news has aust/nz as biggest consumers of pot in the world..

    ..we’re number one..!..we’re number one..!

    ..eat that..!..u.s.a..!

    ..legalise it..!

    ..and of course..they are referring to this..

    http://www.alternet.org/drugs/map-shows-you-which-countries-smoke-most-pot

    ..a story-link i made @ whoar..oh..!..way back on the 4th..!

    ..that whoar..eh..?

    ..always/still the first with the best..eh..?

  15. Draco T Bastard 15
    7 July 2014 at 1:05 pm

    Inequality: A New Zealand Crisis – Max Rashbrooke (Video)
    Well worth watching and it’s only 12 minutes long.

  16. Draco T Bastard 16
    7 July 2014 at 1:14 pm

    The banks that ate the economy

    Stephen G. Cecchetti and Enisse Kharroubi of the Bank for International Settlements – the central banks’ central bank – go further. They argue that rapid financial-sector growth reduces productivity growth in other sectors. Using a sample of 20 developed countries, they find a negative correlation between the financial sector’s share of GDP and the health of the real economy.

    And we have a bankster for a PM who wants to turn NZ into a financial hub. Meanwhile our economy is going backwards as the financial sector increases relative to GDP.

    • Draco T Bastard 16.1
      7 July 2014 at 2:44 pm

      George Soros blasts ‘parasite’ banks

      “The banking sector is acting as a parasite on the real economy,” Mr Soros said in his new book “The Tragedy of the European Union”.
      “The profitability of the finance industry has been excessive. For a while 35pc of all corporate profits in the United Kingdom and the United States came from the financial sector. That’s absurd.”

      And it is absurd. How can a sector that produces nothing be seen as having more worth than sectors that do?

  17. dv 17
    7 July 2014 at 1:43 pm

    I like this comment from Iceland’s president relating to how fast the Iceland economy came out of the recession

    “The government bailled out the people and imprisoned the banksters — the opposite what America and the rest of Europe did.”

    • Gosman 17.1
      7 July 2014 at 2:27 pm

      Yet they have recently elected a center right government. Go figure eh?

      • dv 17.1.1
        7 July 2014 at 2:33 pm

        WHO SAID

        • swordfish 17.1.1.1
          7 July 2014 at 4:58 pm

          Yep, sadly Gosman’s correct on this occasion (now there’s a sentence I never thought I’d type). Absolutely fucking HUGE 28 point swing away from the two main parties of the Left (Social Democratic Alliance and the Left/Green Movement) at the 2013 Icelandic Election. Mind you, very little of it went to the major Centre-Right Independence Party. The swing was almost entirely from the Left to both the centrist Progressives and to two new independent/mildly Left-leaning parties. The Indepedence Party – very much Iceland’s hegemonic party and almost always in power since WWII – is still receiving far less support than it did over all those decades up to the major financial crisis, despite recapturing power. Until 2009, they almost always took more than 35% of the vote, now they’re on just 26%.

  18. dimebag russell 18
    7 July 2014 at 2:30 pm

    2+2=5.

  19. aerobubble 19
    7 July 2014 at 2:35 pm

    Is EdgeTV censoring? channel 9 was much better.

    • bad12 19.1
      7 July 2014 at 3:12 pm

      True that, thought the same when i flicked on edge on my travels round the channels,(ad breaks and i go surfing),

      Don’t know about censorship though, we are still free Not to watch the latest offering…

  20. catz 20
    7 July 2014 at 3:05 pm

    Just a question for the folk at the Standard. Re the coming election, if I want Labour/left to win, does it matter who I give my party vote to ie Labour or Greens ??

    • Rosie 20.1
      7 July 2014 at 5:13 pm

      catz, ask yourself who you feel you would prefer to give your party vote to. Whose values best reflect your values? Whose policies best reflect what you want to see happen in NZ? Is it The Greens, Labour or Internet-Mana for that matter? A party vote for any of these parties can only contribute to the strength of forming a Left coalition. Thats the beauty of MMP eh?! And everyone will be after your party vote……….:-)

      Maybe have a look at your electorate vote though. Whose your MP? Do you want to keep him/her or kick him/her out? Whats the voting history like in your electorate? Maybe for example you have a National Party or coalition partner MP and you want to see them gone. Google the results of previous elections and consider how best to go about casting your electorate vote. Say the Labour candidate increased their majority last time and the results were close and say the Green candidate was much lower down. You may choose to party vote Green but an electorate vote for the Labour candidate will be important to unseat the MP, thus gaining an extra seat for Labour in Parliament and contribute towards a stronger chance of a Left coalition win.

      If you’re on the Maori roll and depending on the electorate, a strategic vote could make all the difference too.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 20.2
      7 July 2014 at 7:53 pm

      I don’t think it matters, Catz, although personally I’d prefer a more environmentally focused left wing government, so I’ll be party voting Green, and I’m still considering an electorate vote for Labour.

      It matters to you though. As Rosie says, vote for the party that best represents your values, even if they turn out to be the worst possible fit apart from all the other ones available.

    • JK 20.3
      7 July 2014 at 8:28 pm

      How about seriously considering whether your Labour candidate is likely to win the seat. If there’s not a hope in hell, then give your Party vote to Labour and your candidate vote to whomever you fancy. But if there is a hope in hell, then Party Vote Labour, and candidate vote Labour – and yes it does matter. Labour needs to have a strong Party vote behind it to be seen by the Gov-General as a possible Government in coalition with other left parties. If there’s not a strong Labour Party vote,
      then the Nats could well take over ……. just be aware of this aspect when voting, please.

  21. Penny Bright 21
    7 July 2014 at 4:06 pm

    How much is NZ Prime Minister John Key personally responsible for helping to stuff up the Irish economy with his dodgy derivatives and tax avoidance schemes?

    Remember this?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10336608

    Fran O’Sullivan: Key chases luck o’ the Irish

    4:59 AM Wednesday Jul 20, 2005

    Banking Boards and Governance Company Taxation… Economy Fiscal Policy Foreign Policy Interest Rates New Zealand

    National MP John Key gets a gleam in his eye when he starts talking about New Zealand becoming the “Jersey of the South Pacific”.

    “Why not have an offshore banking industry based here?” he asks.

    “In the right conditions you could attract 200 banks to register here – each with a CEO and staff. You could attract insurance companies. Bring back lots of Kiwi accountants and lawyers. Single out clusters – such as high-class yachts – or other special sectors as the Irish did.”

    Key is clearly on a roll as he lists the options New Zealand could explore if it decided to abandon outdated ideology and take a more pragmatic approach to growing the economy.

    The former investment banker knows what he is talking about.

    As head of global foreign exchange for investment giant Merrill Lynch he shifted a considerable amount of his business to Ireland in the mid-1990s to take advantage of a 10 per cent tax rate for foreign investors.

    The investment was a runaway success. …… ”

    So – our Prime Minister John Key, helped thousands of his clients avoid /minimise tax by shifting business to Ireland.

    How did that work out for Ireland?

    http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/key-eu-policy-areas/economy/irelands-economic-crisis/index_en.htm

    The boom becomes a bubble

    However, from 2002 onwards, the nature of the boom began to change.

    Labour productivity was no longer increasing, inflation was high and growth in GDP increasingly became related to the housing market.

    Across the economy, wage increases threatened competitiveness. By 2006, although the public finances still appeared strong, this was deceptive, because much of the revenue the State took in was related to the property market. The property related revenues included not only stamp duty and capital gains tax, but just as importantly, a large amount of VAT paid by developers, as well as income tax paid by workers in the very large construction sector. The tax base was effectively very narrow, and dependent to a large extent on the housing boom.

    Figure 2 – The collapse in property related tax revenue which caused the fiscal crisis in Ireland
    Graph showing Tax Revenues from Housing

    Despite this risk, Ireland continued to increase its public expenditure, funding expensive capital projects, but also allowing some categories of current spending to rise very rapidly.

    The speculative bubble in property was supported by a surge in bank lending, and the balance sheets of Irish banks grew disproportionately large relative to the size of the economy.

    The banks had traditionally relied on their deposit base to fund their lending activity.

    However, greater financial integration, spurred in part by the birth of the euro, allowed them to turn more and more to short-term borrowing from abroad, from so-called wholesale money markets.

    This period also saw a global increase in risk appetite by financial markets, and Irish banks were caught up in this.
    _________________________________________________

    The crisis erupts

    By 2007, the housing market had reached its peak.

    That year, tax revenues began to decline markedly, new home completions fell for the first time since 1988, and in 2008, Ireland experienced its first significant increase in unemployment in 15 years.

    Irish banks began to report arrears on their loan books, and with confidence evaporating, were faced with the prospect of deposit outflows.

    At the same time, short term inter-bank lending, on which Irish banks had become heavily reliant for their funding, became difficult to access, due to the international financial crisis.

    Responding to these pressures, the government decided to issue a blanket guarantee of the banks’ liabilities and to recapitalise them using public funds.

    The large costs of these measures further exacerbated the structural budget deficit which the housing market collapse had revealed.

    This bank debt was added to an already significant budget deficit, causing international investors to question the sustainability of Irish sovereign debt. In November 2010 yields on Irish government debt reached an unsustainable 9%, which meant that the government was effectively locked out of international bond markets. Unable to borrow to fund the deficit, Ireland would have faced a devastating and abrupt adjustment to public services, as spending would have had to be brought in line with revenue immediately.

    The EU/IMF economic adjustment programme for Ireland

    To avoid this prospect, On November 29 2010, the government negotiated a financial assistance package with the EU and the IMF totalling €85 billion (including a contribution of €17.5 billion from Ireland’s own resources).

    The financing provided by the programme partners is helping to cushion the very large shock which Ireland’s economy and public finances have suffered as a result of the bursting of the bubble.

    It is helping to keep vital public services running. In July 2011, EU leaders agreed to reduce the interest rate and to extend the maturity on the EU loans provided to Ireland under the programme.

    This decision brought about a significant saving to Irish taxpayers and has helped to improve the country’s debt sustainability.

    Three main elements

    The programme contains three main elements.

    First, a financial sector strategy is helping Ireland to have a smaller, better capitalised banking sector.

    Second, fiscal consolidation will put the country’s public finances on a sustainable path over the medium term.

    Third, an ambitious structural reform agenda will restore competitiveness and strengthen the economy’s growth potential.

    Although broad policy targets in these three areas are agreed between the programme partners (the Irish authorities, the EU, the IMF and the ECB), implementation is a matter for the Irish government, which has a democratic mandate from the Irish people. …

    Bugger.

    Not such a ‘brighter future’ for Ireland?

    For whom exactly was this ‘investment a runaway success’?

    Doesn’t look like it’s been such a raging success for the poor old Irish 99%?

    So in whose interests is NZ Prime Minister John Key working for again?

    Follow the dollar ……..?

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/mpp/mps/fin-interests/00CLOOCMPPFinInterests20141/register-of-pecuniary-and-other-specified-interests-of (Pg 30)

    Rt Hon John Key (National, Helensville)

    2 Other companies and business entities

    Little Nell – property investment, Aspen, Colorado

    Bank of America – banking

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption /anti-privatisation Public Watchdog / Whistleblower

    • Gosman 21.1
      8 July 2014 at 5:02 am

      Which part of the cause of the trouble Ireland faced was as a result if foreign 3 change trading?

  22. Paul 22
    7 July 2014 at 5:02 pm

    Another RNZ programme loses its teeth.
    Mora on checkpoint.
    I’d given up on the panel..now will he ruin one of the last bastions of hard hitting journalism in the country?

    • swordfish 22.1
      7 July 2014 at 5:17 pm

      It’ll be sad day for current affairs in this Country if Mary Wilson leaves Checkpoint. Or, indeed, if her involvement is increasingly (and deliberately) diluted.

    • Te Reo Putake 22.2
      7 July 2014 at 5:49 pm

      Just heard a sick making ad for Crump’s show promising “a new right wing pundit”. Like it’s unusual or summat.

  23. Draco T Bastard 23
    7 July 2014 at 5:07 pm

    Solar has won. Even if coal were free to burn, power stations couldn’t compete

    Last week, for the first time in memory, the wholesale price of electricity in Queensland fell into negative territory – in the middle of the day.

    For several days the price, normally around $40-$50 a megawatt hour, hovered in and around zero. Prices were deflated throughout the week, largely because of the influence of one of the newest, biggest power stations in the state – rooftop solar.

    “Negative pricing” moves, as they are known, are not uncommon. But they are only supposed to happen at night, when most of the population is mostly asleep, demand is down, and operators of coal fired generators are reluctant to switch off. So they pay others to pick up their output.

    That’s not supposed to happen at lunchtime. Daytime prices are supposed to reflect higher demand, when people are awake, office building are in use, factories are in production. That’s when fossil fuel generators would normally be making most of their money.

    Obviously, if we followed the Greens idea of putting solar on our roofs we’d be getting the same here and that would be bad for the new owners of our generation assets. I figure that this decreasing profit is why National don’t like the Greens idea.

    I suspect that, over time, we’d have to go back to a state owned grid though so that all of that distributed electricity generation could be used effectively.

    • bad12 23.1
      7 July 2014 at 5:50 pm

      On the way there a quick piece of legislation requiring the power retailers to pick up any power generated at a household level at the wholesale rate would help…

    • Colonial Viper 23.2
      7 July 2014 at 6:07 pm

      Lower power prices work against the business case for roof top solar. That’s why we need to get away from the concept of a power market.

      Also I contend that solar thermal is the best use of solar energy for most households.

      • Draco T Bastard 23.2.1
        7 July 2014 at 10:09 pm

        Actually, the business case just doesn’t work. A flood of power onto the market from sources (and renewable is always cheaper than actually burning resources) and prices drop resulting in lower to negative profits. People are laid off, maintenance isn’t done and after awhile the power grid looks like the rail network. There’s several very good reasons why it should be a state monopoly but the most important one is that it guarantees* supply.

        And the best solar power for houses is both solar thermal and voltaic. Use hydro and wind as the backup when there’s not enough solar.

        • No, supply cannot be guaranteed. A good storm will cause damage that will take days to fix.
  24. Herodotus 24
    7 July 2014 at 6:19 pm

    As someone who will not be in the country on election day, any advice on how to pre vote a few weeks before the actual Election Day. I cannot find anything on the elections internet site of any help. A few votes could be the difference in will it be David or John being based on the 9th floor.
    http://www.elections.org.nz/voting/when-you-cant-get-there-day

    • JK 24.1
      7 July 2014 at 8:31 pm

      Anyone can make a vote three weeks before the actual election day, Herodotus. If you don’t think you’ll be in NZ within that three weks, I think you will have to either make a special vote at the Registrar for Elections OR vote at the local overseas embassy wherever you are. Check at your local electoral office.

    • Anne 24.2
      7 July 2014 at 8:42 pm

      Herodotus

      My understanding is there is a polling place in each electorate which is opened around 3 or so weeks prior to election day for voters who wish to vote in advance. It does not require special voting papers… you just vote in the normal way. I used it once and its convenient for people who will be absent or otherwise engaged on polling day. Ring your local Returning Officer (usually housed in the electorate’s main Post Office) and ask where the pre-election day polling place is going to be.

      • Herodotus 24.2.1
        7 July 2014 at 9:26 pm

        Thanks to both of you as now I have some direction as I will be leaving a week before. Think that it is lacking that such advice was not obvious from the site. With less than 11 weeks to go and counting.

  25. Ergo Robertina 25
    7 July 2014 at 6:54 pm

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Opposition-wants-factory-farming-gone-by-2017/tabid/1607/articleID/351759/Default.aspx

    Good unequivocal policy announced by Labour to ban all factory farming by 2017.

  26. Weepu's beard 26
    7 July 2014 at 7:32 pm

    Just noticed my power supplier is sponsoring the Whaleoil blog. I fired them off a comment saying I’ll change providers if they don’t pull the ad.

    Then I thought about all the other advertisers sprouting up on the hate-merchant’s website:

    Canon
    Google (tax dodgers so no surprise there)
    Specsavers
    Telecon (sic)
    BNZ (Aussie bank, figures)
    Business.govt.nz (!)
    Kia
    Radionetwork (ie, ZB)
    TSB Bank
    Cancer Society (I am surprised at that)
    Kiwiwealth/Gareth Morgan/Kiwibank (another surprise)
    Christchurchnz.com (weird because Whaleoil’s done nothing but put the boot into Christchurch since 2011)
    F&P
    Nova Energy (Solar panels!)
    Unitec
    heaps of dating/flirting websites

    Who is up for a boycott on all these businesses?

    • idlegus 26.1
      7 July 2014 at 8:25 pm

      canon awarded whaleoil some award for being the best blog in nz. http://www.canonmediaawards.co.nz/

      • bad12 26.1.1
        7 July 2014 at 8:29 pm

        Shall we all applaud in unison…

      • Weepu's beard 26.1.2
        7 July 2014 at 9:19 pm

        Crazy, isn’t it?

        I heard Cameron Slater the other day on Rachael Smalley’s show with Barry Soper, an extreme fence sitter (never been seen to have convictions), and Josie Pagani, who is too polite to give the slug both barrels. Thus, Slater felt he could dominate and he did because Rachael Smalley let him.

        He began by saying how many goats he’d shot that day. One hundred and twenty, apparently. Someone asked, “what do you do with goat”, and he replied, “goat curry”. But, that’s not what happens with the goats that Cameron Slater shoots, is it? Those goats don’t feed anyone. They are left to rot where they are shot. All 120 of them. He’s admitted as much on his poisonous, bogan website.

    • McFlock 26.2
      7 July 2014 at 8:36 pm

      but from whence shall I meet thousands of NZ single women looking for love via stock photos???

    • RedBaronCV 26.3
      7 July 2014 at 9:33 pm

      These companies must have rocks in their heads. Do they really want to be associated with someone who regularly breaks court orders and runs a huge smear on an elected official? And the AGM’s of some of these companies are coming up. Questions at the meetings, motions to the NZX- go for it.
      Do they share a common ad agency and if so which one?

  27. Colonial Viper 27
    7 July 2014 at 8:56 pm

    Some dickwad interviewer on National Radio saying that one of the failures of ACC is that you can’t sue doctors, so doctors don’t have any incentive to do better.

    What. The. Fuck.

  28. millsy 28
    7 July 2014 at 10:26 pm

    Why the right never really made an effort to take the Auckland mayoralty off Len Brown.

    He is giving them 90% of what they want anyway.

    As per usual, the cost falls on low income earners, who are the biggest users of buses, libararies, parks, halls, etc.

    One wonders if National supported the rail link in return for implementing the agenda that was set down in anticipation for John Bank’s coronation election

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