Open mike 08/11/2024

46 comments on “Open mike 08/11/2024 ”

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1. Jenny 1

   8 November 2024 at 8:57 am

   First Amendment of the American Constitution

   "Congress shall make no law ….. abridging the freedom of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"

   https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt1-10-1/ALDE_00000407/#:~:text=First%20Amendment%3A,for%20a%20redress%20of%20grievances.

   In my opinion, the following is the greatest post election speech given in this election, (if not the greatest speech of the whole election).

   Elizabeth Warren

   Transcript:

   I will not ask you to look for any Silver Linings.

   I will not ask you to feel anything but grief right now.

   Donald Trump won the election and the consequences will be real and devastating.

   But I'm reminding myself and you – that on the road ahead, there will still be opportunities to fight back

   I can't tell you that we will win all of those fights.

   I can't tell you that we will win most, or even any of them.

   But when we arrive at each of those moments we will face a choice, to give up, or to press forward.

   The far right wants us to feel powerless. Extremists are counting on apathy, cynicism, heartbreak, or all of the above as their Rocket Fuel. They are counting on us to point fingers at each other and to lose trust in our ability to ever ever make change.

   I absolutely refuse to give them that satisfaction. We will continue to fight for each other.

   Look 8 years ago, in the dark days when Republicans took full power in Washington, I thought the Affordable Care Act would be gone with the snap of a finger.

   But the American people rose up.

   Activists like the late, amazing Ady Barkan and countless others put their bodies on the line quite literally. They made their voices heard, they saved health care for millions of families and they paved the way for us to expand Health Care in the past few years.

   And a Grassroots movement against far-right control, took back the house in 2018, and the White House in 2020, and the Senate in 2021.

   Don't let anyone tell you that those victories didn't make a real difference…..

   English (auto-generated – lightly edited for clarity)

   Democracy is more than just about voting once every three or four years to choose your rulers, democracy is about having the right to publicly assemble to protest, for or against your rulers policies and programs.

   Without this right. we are ruled by elected dictators. Sure we can vote them in or out, but during their tenure, if we have no right to challenge their policies while they are in office, they are still dictators, elected or not.

   The right to protest and organise and campaign against their policies, is one of the first things that autocrats try to repress. (often violently).

   "Can't you just shoot them? Just shoot them in the legs or something?" Donald Trump

   Elizabeth Warren gets it. If the Left opposition parties add their support to the protest movement against the far right's policies. We can hold back the far right, even from the opposition benches.

   From her own experience in defence of the Affordable Care Act, Elizabeth Warren knows that parliamentary opposition activism is reinforced by extra parliamentary activism, visa versa, street activism and protest are reinforced by the participation and support of parliamentary activists. The American activist Ady Barkan who was name dropped by Elizabeth Warren, reminds me of this country's Rod Donald, who expertly united parliamentary activism with extra parliamentary activism to achieve our MMP electoral system, all from an opposition position.

   Today the Hikoi to Parliament against the ACT Party's bill to roll back treaty rights starts in Northland. Already this campaign has seen the ruling National Party distance themselves from the ACT bill. Everyone who opposes this government's right wing agenda, everyone who believes in fairness and justice needs to join this Hikoi when it passes through your town.

   
   
   

   "As the far right works to roll back what we've achieved, they'll hope that we don't have the stomach to push back anymore. But we can choose to prove them wrong."

   Elizabeth Warren

   Reply
2. Dennis Frank 2

   8 November 2024 at 9:54 am

   Bomber cites the Spinoff editor on a serial party-hopper:

   “I didn’t get the HRC role but still very keen to help out,” wrote Stephen Rainbow to Act Party chief of staff Andrew Ketels in a text message on May 22 this year. Rainbow had applied for the position of chief human rights commissioner, after being nominated by Act leader David Seymour, and been interviewed for the job in March. He did not receive a text back from Ketels, but nearly three months later, Ketels did text. “Congratulations!”

   On that day, Rainbow had been announced by justice minister Paul Goldsmith as the new chief human rights commissioner. “Thanks Andrew,” Rainbow replied. “Appreciate the opportunity to serve my country.” He is due to start in his role at the commission next week. https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2024/11/08/mediawatch-spinoff-scoop-another-broken-rainbow/

   Stephen Rainbow graduated in 1985 with a Bachelor of Arts, and in 1991 with a PhD in Political Science. He became politically active in the 1970s joining the Labour Party and served on Labour's New Zealand Council. later joined the newly formed Green Party and stood for election in 1989 for the Wellington City Council on a Green ticket. He was successful and became the country's first Green councillor. He was re-elected to the Wellington City Council in 1992 and 1995. Then Rainbow co-founded the Progressive Green Party, a "Bluegreen" environmentalist party with a more right-wing emphasis.

   In 1998 he decided not to seek re-election. By that time the Progressive Greens had disbanded and most members had joined the "Bluegreen" wing of the National Party, including Rainbow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Rainbow

   Such an exemplary performance of biodiversity is supplemented by his user-defined gender, apparently. You can see why he got the job, eh?

   Rainbow and his partner Anna Frusin (who was born in the Soviet Union) had three children together… Rainbow is also a gay rights activist. He served as Chairman of Auckland-based phone support and LGBT advocacy service OUTLine and also a board member of the New Zealand AIDS Foundation.

   Reply
3. SPC 3

   8 November 2024 at 10:45 am

   The future of Taranaki was via offshore wind turbines and the power for local economic development.

   Now it is miserable seabed mining operation, that blocks all of that.

   The future of cities was supposed to be congestion charging (and bus lanes) to manage down the number of cars at peak times.

   Now it is more tunnels for faster travel at peak times

   "These improvements will result in significant travel time savings during peak times, reducing travel times from the northern suburbs to the CBD, hospital, and airport by approximately 10 minutes," Brown said.

   "Commuters in the capital will see a significant benefit in time savings from these upgrades. Those travelling on the number one bus between Island Bay and the Railway Station are forecast to save nine minutes during morning peak times, while those on the number two bus between Miramar and the CBD will notice a saving of 11 minutes on their journeys."

   Can they not afford hospital builds etc first?

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/11/05/two-new-tunnels-brown-reveals-govts-preferred-plan-to-lower-congestion/

   Reply
   • Bearded Git 3.1

     8 November 2024 at 11:37 am

     So you spend billions on the tunnel to save 9 minutes driving to a hugely underfunded hospital where you have to wait 6 hours in emergency.

     Surely it is better to save billions on the tunnel and use this for the hospital? Then you drive for an extra 9 minutes and wait only 30 minutes in emergency at a well funded hospital.

     The problem is that Luxon and the rest of the cabinet use private hospitals so they are happy to save the 9 minutes and sod the plebs.

     ONE TERM GOVERNMENT. Two recent polls have the COC losing power in 2026.

     Reply
4. tWig 4

   8 November 2024 at 10:45 am

   Spiderhoof on TikTok dissects Luxon's claims on housing in his interview with Guyon Espiner recently.

   Reply
   • ianmac 4.1

     8 November 2024 at 11:09 am

     Thanks for that link tWig. First time for me. I like that she sharpens down to a specific topic and dissects that. Many interviews get the point buried in verbosity esp where Luxon is concerned. Actually I suspect he knows little outside his talking points.

     Reply
5. Kay 5

   8 November 2024 at 10:49 am

   Could authoritarianism happen in New Zealand?

   According to Dr. Muriel Newman it already has, in the form of Jacinda.

   The editor of the UK Spiked On-line, Brendon O’Neil wrote, “Tyranny has had a makeover. It’s no longer a boot stamping on a human face forever. Authoritarianism is well-dressed now. It’s polite. It has a broad smile and speaks in a soft voice. It is delivered not via a soldier’s boot to the cranium but with a caring liberal head-tilt. And its name is Jacinda Ardern.

   …

   ”US journalist Glenn Greenwald described our PM as the new ‘face of authoritarianism’: “This is someone so inebriated by her sense of righteousness and superiority that she views dissent as an evil too dangerous to allow.”

   …

   Jacinda Ardern is the embodiment of new-age socialism. The “team of five million” have been her guinea-pigs. But what’s actually been thrust onto the country is simply a public relations make-over of the ugly failed socialism of old, that represses freedom of expression and perpetuates failure. As a result of her ‘unfortunate experiment’, New Zealand is now more oppressed and divided than ever before. But even someone as delusional as our Prime Minister must be sensing – and fearing – failure. The question now is how will she respond?

   …

   Indications are it will be the way of all tyrants – she’ll use the authority of her Office to repress dissent.

   https://www.nzcpr.com/the-new-face-of-authoritarianism/

   Or Muldoon never really went away.

   One of the Muldoon government’s more notorious pieces of legislation was the National Development Act, pushed through Parliament in 1979. The act was developed to enable the swift introduction of the “Think Big” energy projects that National had campaigned on at the 1978 election
   

   However, the legislation aroused considerable opposition because of the widespread additional powers it gave the government to override established planning procedures to facilitate national development, its lack of environmental safeguards for protecting natural resources, and the speed and lack of consultation that surrounded its introduction.
   

   The current controversy surrounding the Government’s plan to establish a fast-track consenting regime for major infrastructure projects turns the clock back to the days of Think Big and the National Development Act, with little acknowledgement of the history.

   https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/04/26/govt-repeats-mistakes-of-muldoons-authoritarian-excesses/

   And it appears we have a decent amount of trump supporters here:

   https://grantduncanphd.substack.com/p/has-support-for-donald-trump-grown

   But why is there a surge in support for Trump among Kiwis?

   The 2023 election was evidently a swing to the right. Before that, the pandemic policies caused a lot of anger, and there’s been loud disaffection with left-wing policies and so-called '“wokeism”. For many men, there’s resentment of feminism and of women leaders. Many Kiwi Trumpers can probably see the Donald’s character flaws as clearly as others do. They may just have a stronger aversion to left-wingers, even more than they did in the 2017–20 period. Others may have positive feelings about his “alpha male” attitude.

   Could a Trump-like level of authoritarianism happen here?

   The misogynism, racism and other hatreds have always been here , but between the internet and a pandemic that sent people down rabbit holes with the encouragement of overseas bad actors, can we ever go back to the NZ 'normal '?

   And would teaching children right through school the skill of objectively assessing the quality of information they're receiving, help?

   Reply
   • Bearded Git 5.1

     8 November 2024 at 11:28 am

     The New Zealand Centre for Political Research is not actually a think-tank for politics, but is in fact a sock puppet right wing lobby group set up by ACT.

     Muriel Newman's comments have to be viewed in this context.

     Reply
     • Kay 5.1.1

       8 November 2024 at 1:39 pm

       Oh I'm very aware of that, and also following my own advice of assessing the quality of the information I'm reading.

       I do find it interesting how, to the RW, the left is the authoritarian, and to the LW it's the Right. I feel we need some sort of tyrant that all sides can agree is a tyrant.

       Reply
   • joe90 5.2

     8 November 2024 at 12:35 pm

     And would teaching children right through school the skill of objectively assessing the quality of information they're receiving, help?

     If you could reach young adult males living a life comfortable enough to afford them the time and wherewithal to immerse themselves in a vile misogynist, racist, cope/cry more social media world? Perhaps.

     The comfortable adult males trolling social media adopted their vile misogynist, racist outlook well before misinformation was even a thing.

     Reply
   • Drowsy M. Kram 5.3

     8 November 2024 at 1:09 pm

     The misogynism, racism and other hatreds have always been here , but between the internet and a pandemic that sent people down rabbit holes with the encouragement of overseas bad actors, can we ever go back to the NZ ‘normal’?

     Thanks for that comment Kay. Whether our CoC govt has more than one term to swing their wrecking balls is up to Kiwi voters.

     “Current debates that seek to revive animosities between ‘iwi’ vs ‘Kiwi,’ for example, are classic Cartesian devices – anachronistic, divisive colonial throwbacks.”

     https://www.honourthetreaty.org.nz/

     What's in the Treaty Principles Bill? [8 Nov 2024; ODT]
     Seymour told RNZ he had not read the [Tribunal's second] report in full, but he had seen summaries.

     "Their criticism is not surprising, in fact it's expected because the Treaty Principles Bill by defining the principles does the job that they've been supposed to do for the last 48 years, so it's not surprising that they resent that job being done by Parliament.

     "Parliament asked them to do it in 1975, and Parliament has the right to say 'Well, if you haven't done a very good job we're going to do it for you'."

     Hmm, Seymour's faith in Parliament doing a good job of closing Kiwi ethnicity gaps is touching, but the parliamentary party he leads is all about defending division by wealth, and he's shamelessly using anti-Māori race-baiting in the service of Mammon.

     
     https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/16-08-2022/the-side-eyes-two-new-zealands-the-table

     Growth in life expectancy slows [20 April 2021]
     The gap between Māori and non-Māori life expectancy at birth was 7.5 years for males and 7.3 years for females in 2017–2019.

     

     https://thespinoff.co.nz/books/19-03-2022/danyl-mclauchlan-on-too-much-money-a-book-about-what-divides-us

     Reply
     • Kay 5.3.1

       8 November 2024 at 1:46 pm

       Seymour's faith in Parliament doing a good job of closing Kiwi ethnicity gaps is touching, but the parliamentary party he leads is all about defending division by wealth, and he's shamelessly using anti-Māori race-baiting in the service of Mammon.

       Also disability, beneficiary, minimum wage earner-baiting, no matter one's race. Of course, with Maori being overrepresented within those groups, it's a double + baiting going on.

       Reply
   • mikesh 5.4

     8 November 2024 at 4:32 pm

     I thought Jacinda was merely following the advice of the Health Department.

     Reply
     • weka 5.4.1

       8 November 2024 at 11:08 pm

       not really. They got advice from various ministries, but caucus made the decisions and afaik developed the policies. The MoH didn't force Labour to adopt vaccine mandates, nor to treat vax hesitant people badly. Ardern's 'two NZs' interview was pure Ardern.

       It doesn't hurt the left to look at the mistakes NZ made, despite us having one of the best pandemic responses.

       Reply
   • weka 5.5

     8 November 2024 at 11:28 pm

     Could a Trump-like level of authoritarianism happen here?

     Yes. I've been writing about this since before the 2016 election. Here are some of the ones about Trump,

     https://thestandard.org.nz/tag/trumps-not-so-bad-2/

     I don't have an educated grasp of political theory, but there is a different between authoritarianism and fascism. The US is on the path to fascism, probably a reasonable way down that path and how far they are committed will only be understood in hindsight later. I have no idea if that can still be avoided, but this election is a very bad sign.

     Imo, NZ is on the same path, but distinctly further behind. But this is why we have the kinds of divisions we didn't have a decade ago (at least not to the political extent we do now).

     Key's government did a lot of setting us up. Dirty Politics, smile and wave radical change, Key's casual misogyny. He's not a crass populist like Trump or Boris Johnson, but the MO is the same: how to get and keep power outside our democratic norms.

     Trump emboldened a lot of men in 2016 by winning and doing so in the way he did. I knew men who were socially liberal and who thought Trump was better than Clinton (part of my motivation for the Trump's not so bad posts). That sub culture are also the ones who occupied Parliament (and of note is the people at that occupation who wanted to storm the citadel and put MPs on trial or worse). Not all the same people, but lots of overlaps.

     Educating children to think and assess evidence is important, but without a politics of connection with people we disagree with, I don't think there is a way out of our current path.

     And the left can do authoritarianism. China, Russia, Cambodia and so on. Calling Ardern Pol Pot is obviously daft, but it's not a good sign that the left is now so incapable of critiquing how Labour used authority in the early years of the pandemic, and how this has played into our current state of political tension.

     Reply
     • weka 5.5.1

       8 November 2024 at 11:33 pm

       Liberals taking a position that we are morally right and will therefore win because we can force people to think like us, will be the death of us.

       Short read from Roger Hallam, one of the co-founders of Extinction Rebellion.

       https://rogerhallam.com/how-to-stop-fascism/

       The thing I like most about that is Hallam produces solutions as well, not just this is fucked up and we should do this instead. There are actual pathways being worked on that he is pointing to.

       Political and ecological economist Jason Hickel talkng about the death of the liberalism and Democratic Party. Interesting analysis, although he does the thing of saying this is bad, we should do this instead, but doesn't say how.

       https://x.com/jasonhickel/status/1854107107743682797

       Reply
6. Kay 6

   8 November 2024 at 10:57 am

   Apologies, 1st ever longish post, and the layout keys to press are beyond me, as is editing!

   Reply
   • ianmac 6.1

     8 November 2024 at 11:20 am

     A really good read Kay. Thanks.

     Reply
   • weka 6.2

     8 November 2024 at 1:22 pm

     you did pretty good! To get the hang of it, try to stick to one formating thingy eg in this case the blockquote aka "

     I tidied it up a bit

     Reply
     • Kay 6.2.1

       8 November 2024 at 1:40 pm

       Cheers

       Reply
7. ianmac 7

   8 November 2024 at 11:32 am

   Thinking on re the Trump sweep.

   It has always puzzled me exactly why we vote for the "side" we do.

   Is it policy or personality?

   Neither I now think. It may be emotional. When I ask individuals, they often speak about "better policies" but not in very specific terms.

   More likely, "I feel that ….."

   Reply
   • Belladonna 7.1

     8 November 2024 at 12:22 pm

     In past conversations with people over politics – I find that it's almost entirely emotional connection, rather than hard policies which appeal. Which is why the cult of political personality exists. It's very unusual for someone to say – I really dislike this politician, but I'm going to vote for them because I like their policies.

     Reply
     • Incognito 7.1.1

       8 November 2024 at 1:04 pm

       It’s very unusual for someone to say – I really dislike this politician, but I’m going to vote for them because I like their policies.

       What nonsense!

       When I vote in local or national elections, I don’t know the candidates at all although I cannot stand most (spanning the whole political spectrum) when they appear on TV or radio. In any case, I cast my candidate vote based on what they [claim to] stand for and my party vote based on their policies. I’d like to think I’m not unusual in this sense.

       Reply
       • Tony Veitch 7.1.1.1

         8 November 2024 at 1:49 pm

         Not a bit unusual – my case also!

         Reply
       • Belladonna 7.1.1.2

         8 November 2024 at 2:05 pm

         I think that the sample of people from TS is heavily skewed to people who vote logically, rather than emotionally (or at least like to believe that we do) – but it's not the reality for the majority of the electorate.

         https://theconversation.com/neuroscience-can-explain-why-voting-is-so-often-driven-by-emotion-231469

         Reply
     • Kay 7.1.2

       8 November 2024 at 1:55 pm

       I really, really dislike ALL politicians, and wish there was a way for society not to need them. But I still vote for them based on policy, and the mutual ideology that some of them share with me. Plus, I want the right to complain. I have zero emotional connection with the politicians.

       It's called holding your nose and voting, to try and keep the worst of the bad bunch out. You'll find more and more people are doing that now. Unfortunately, there's still too many people who have given up on the process altogether, and they're the ones who would make the Parliament makeup a lot different.

       Reply
       • Belladonna 7.1.2.1

         8 November 2024 at 2:01 pm

         However, if you discuss politics at all with friends/family – I suspect that you'll find that you're in a minority. Most people vote with their heart, not their head.

         I don't think that your analysis that more people are following the pathway of holding their nose and voting for the 'least worst' is holding true. Or, how do you explain the US result?

         The people who've truly given up are those who don't vote at all – and so are entirely irrelevant in elections.

         Reply
         • Kay 7.1.2.1.1

           8 November 2024 at 3:07 pm

           The American voters are now too far gone for us to ever understand their psyche. I'm not even going there.

           I guess it depends on who you talk politics with. Unfortunately I don't have many people I can do that with, but the ones I do, there's definitely logic and reason involved, not the 'I feel'. I completely agree there are many who vote on feelings, way too many of them.

           My mother has reminded me recently about the times where people voted for XYZ because that's who their parents voted for, apparently, my Dad was one of them. And of course, the wives following who hubby voted for. Thinking for oneself just wasn't a factor.

           How can feelings be turned into logic and reason? Or are we so far past the tipping point now that there's no going back?

           And the non-voters are extremely relevant to elections, and can't be ignored, especially by the Left, who have a lot to gain from their vote. Why have they given up? What would convince them to re-engage with the process?

           Reply
8. SPC 8

   8 November 2024 at 11:48 am

   The art of playing dumb.

   Some councillors want to adjust part of the Wellington Golden Mile plan.

   The GM plan is half funded by government (authorisation by the past one). Any change to it ends the past authorisation and thus it is all council funded.

   So if they want to cut half of the GM cost – they would not save a penny.

   So here it is

   Councillor Calvert wanted more focus on scaling back bigger projects such as the Golden Mile development, rather than focusing on smaller ones.

   "The Golden Mile is going to cost for our share, roughly around about $70 million and that's dealing with an area that involves Lambton Quay and Courtenay Place. We all know Courtenay Place needs some money , we don't need to spend the money on Lambton Quay," Cr Calvert said.

   She would not save the council a penny with that approach.

   Is she really that dumb?

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/533182/calls-for-hiatus-on-golden-mile-work-as-wellington-council-mulls-long-term-plan

   The so called budget crisis caused by 4 right wing councilors changing their vote on airport share sale, was of a conspiracy to end the GM project. One that involved Bishop and Brown, who after the election tried to heavy the mayor to change or end it.

   Reply
   • alwyn 8.1

     8 November 2024 at 11:59 am

     "Any change to it ends the past authorisation and thus it is all council funded."

     Why do you come to this conclusion? I don't see that not going ahead with work on Lambton Quay will automatically stop the provision of funds to the unchanged plans for Courtney Place.

     Reply
     • Belladonna 8.1.1

       8 November 2024 at 2:14 pm

       AFAICS, the whole development (Lambton Quay through to Courtney Place) is all part of a single Golden Mile redevelopment project.

       Simeon Brown has indeed said that changes to the scope of any part of the project will mean that it has to go back to NZTA/WK for review against current guidelines (so almost certainly not go ahead).

       https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350385546/transport-minister-sets-golden-mile-rule-make-changes-and-lose-government-cash

       https://archive.ph/lb1rP

       The question for Wellington Council, is whether they can afford the part payment for the project? Or want to cancel it altogether. They're unlikely to be given the option to pick and choose from a smogasbord of alternatives.

       Reply
   • Shanreagh 8.2

     8 November 2024 at 2:45 pm

     The so called budget crisis caused by 4 right wing councilors changing their vote on airport share sale, was of a conspiracy to end the GM project. One that involved Bishop and Brown, who after the election tried to heavy the mayor to change or end it.

     This is incorrect and I am not sure where it has come from. The notice of motion to discuss the sale of the airport shares as part of the budget/LTP came from Cnclrs Nureddin Abdurahman (mover) and Ben McNulty (seconder). Both of these are Labour people. A meeting called to discuss this the motion was supported by a range of councillors and was passed 9-7

     Those voting for the motion were:

     Councillors Ben McNulty, Nureddin Abdurahman, Diane Calvert, Ray Chung, Tony Randle, Nicola Young, Iona Pannett, Teri O’Neill and Nīkau Wi Neera voted against the sale. So included Green and Labour.

     But mainly here in Wgtn we saw a group of councillors who were tired of the plethora of nice to haves that were to be funded from the sale while water, under -invested for years, did not have a significant top-up. Many Cnclrs were under unrelenting pressure on the roll-out of cycle-ways which has proved to be a divisive hot button issue because of predetermination of outcomes stymieing public consultation. We cannot assume that Cnclrs voted on party lines then or that they will going forward. They seem to be voting on 'let's get the best for Wellington' lines. WCC has always had this kind of attitude and is not usually heavily 'whipped' along party lines. The Greens I suspect would be the exception.

     WCC has already been slated for putting the water contributions, such as they are, against ratepayer funding. The usual practice for infrastructure is to pay by raising debt that is repaid over the life of the infrastructure. The problem for WCC is that it has already had a rating downgrade from Standard & Poors so any raising of $$$$ to pay for water will come at a greater cost than if the council's rating had been higher.

     They mention all this 'blah blah' about debt headroom, funds. In pers comms I have had the proceeds of the sale were going to pass through the books and pay off some of the debt. The books then looked great and additional money was going to be raised by debt with the $$$ from the sale as part of the money go round. Apparently the last place that this idea was carried out (coincidently by the same Council CEO) was one of the councils in Taranaki. It took about 16 years before the fund was realised. I am not sure whether this council still has the fund.

     No matter which way you look at there now is a hole in the budget. The easiest thing would be to chop all the nice to have projects, mothball some and lengthen out the timelines for others.

     Whanau has put up a list of derisory, 'rats & mice' items aimed at the suburbs, maybe with the intention of getting people all upset.

     Everything must be on the table. The exercise is futile without it. The Golden Mile revamping is deeply unpopular with voters and business people alike. The Courtenay Place cycle lane, for that is all it is, is also bad for retailers who need certainty to enable them to regroup. CP is terribly run down in the way of public cleaning, the place is scuffed and kicked. It clearly has not had meaningful attention from WCC for some time. Other deeply unpoular items are cycleways, waste and the OTT plans to deal with Civic Square/Te Ngakau city to sea bridge.

     If everything, including the Golden Mile or the Tarnished Mile as some of us call, it is on the table then implications such as part funding would need to be considered.

     The fact that someone else may pay for it won't change a bad policy into a good one.

     The point I'd realy like to hammer home is that by looking at this along the line of political parties is to continue to do a disservice to Wellington, its residents and ratepayers. We need people who will bite the bullet with the good of Wellington at the forefront.

     Some Cnclrs like Diane Calvert are trying to get a conversation going about items that could be chopped etc. Good on her. All sorts of people have responded with their ideas. Other Cnclrs are trying to deal with the fallout from a terribly-run public meeting on Civic Square/Te Ngakau which was full of council planning speak, ejected a couple of people including a former city planner, stifled questions from the public and finshed early.

     We are awaiting an Observer. The rate the nice to haves are being put forward unabated may mean WCC will be in dire straits financially (only a minimum of exaggeration here)

     What is clear is that Wellingtonians will owe a debt of gratitude to the 9 who voted against the sale of the airport shares, thus forcing a rethink of the LTP. Sure it is messy and mucks up tidy timetables. I'd rather have messy than to pay for unpopular and unneeded nice to haves. WCC needs to learn to budget/cut its cloth. Rates increases of up to 20% are not sustainable. In addition, some of the suburbs where the cycle ways, so-called 'traffic smoothing' have been put in are riven. We all need to get back to being happy with the basics and not expecting our Council's to pick winners or fund nice to haves.

     Most of us perhaps are yearning for the days of boring council debates and quick smart action with a minimum of fuss on roads, footpaths and water. The days are gone but we ought not to hand our souls, and money, over to a council that does not have our interests at heart

     'The sale has divided the council and cast its usual voting blocs to one side. Some of the strongest opposition to selling has come from Labour councillors, their local party arguing the airport is a strategic public asset critical to the city’s economy.

     It has cost Whanau crucial support after three left-leaning councillors publicly withdrew their unconditional backing for her policies'

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/wellington-city-council-votes-to-stop-controversial-airport-shares-sale/JQ7BP4QPXNBAHBK7D7R47QFORM/.

     Whanau actually has a chance to show that she is a leader. Her derisory little list is not a good start though. A true leader would have cut the 'cxxp' with a call to do what is best for the city, recognising that the city and its management have been found wanting and that the Govt has had to put in place some of its extraordinary constitutional mechanisms.

     I'd like to think at some stage she will act as a leader but it is not looking good at this stage. She is in no way a Jacinda Ardern type politician able to step up and be counted in a time of financial crisis.

     PS We have been poorly served by legacy media on this. Most seem to have missed large chunks of important things. We have been blessed to have talking points for and against, ideas etc through the commentariat Scoop, Spinoff etc.

     https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=165352#more-165352

     https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=165283

     https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/23-09-2024/windbag-tory-whanau-keeps-making-unforced-errors

     In the interests of seeing whre people are coming from I voted for Tory Whanau as mayor and also for Cnclr Nureddin Abdurahman was my ward councillor. I guess a 50% return is better than nothing.

     Reply
     • SPC 8.2.1

       8 November 2024 at 3:36 pm

       The facts are

       1.4 right wing councillors who oppose the GM project supported the sale of the airport shares before the change in government.

       2.after the election the Ministers Bishop and Brown wanted the Mayor to end the GM project.

       3.the 4 right wing councillors then voted against the sale of the airport shares, creating the LTP crisis.

       4.these 4 Councillors and the government want this to result in the end of the GM project as part of the new LTP.

       5.the 4 would sell the airport shares as soon as the next opportunity came up.

       Reply
       • alwyn 8.2.1.1

         8 November 2024 at 5:32 pm

         The version I heard was that some of the Councillors who were in favour of selling the shares found out what the more left wing members wanted to do with the money. Basically waste it on more rubbish seemed to be the idea.

         Better to keep the shares rather than sell them and then have the money wasted.

         Reply
         • SPC 8.2.1.1.1

           8 November 2024 at 5:39 pm

           No.

           The council had to find $2b to cover insurance of assets. The airport shares were of little use in this as they could not be sold after an earthquake (damage, decline in travel).

           The proposal was to sell the shares and place the money into an asset/wealth fund, not spend any money.

           For mine, they should have agreed in principle to sell, sold only when the price was right, and borrowed against the shares in the meantime to build up the insurance risk fund.

           Reply
           • alwyn 8.2.1.1.1.1

             8 November 2024 at 5:59 pm

             That doesn't conflict with what I was told. The problem was what the supposed wealth fund was going to invest in.

             After all, the only sensible place to invest such a fund is in some other country. That at least gives us some chance that there would be something there if a earthquake hit. Do you really think that was going to be agreed to?

             Reply
             • SPC …

               8 November 2024 at 6:11 pm

               Banks provide a 5% return atm. But will decline

               Some power companies are currently low value, but will rise in value as bank interest returns fall.

               There is a CG waiting to be made on such shares – but once made a transfer into a growth fund.

               Reply
           • Shanreagh 8.2.1.1.1.2

             8 November 2024 at 7:12 pm

             The proposal was to sell the shares and place the money into an asset/wealth fund, not spend any money.

             This does not tally with my sources about the money go round. Did you miss the point that where this same type of scheme was initiated, in a council where the current WCC CE was also once a CE the scheme took over 16 years to come into being.

             Rainy day funds are great. Everybody and every organisation should aim for them. The generally accepted logic is that the it is essential to get the budget in order before devoting time to building up a fund. WCC budget is dire. WCC needs to work on this first, it is the biggest priority. Also if building up a rainy day fund is a priority why are some money-wasting nice to haves still being planned. Surely it is easier to ditch these?

             Reply
             • SPC …

               8 November 2024 at 7:45 pm

               It's not a rainy day fund, it is a provision for insurance risk.

               And money can go into an assets fund very quickly.

               Reply
       • Shanreagh 8.2.1.2

         8 November 2024 at 7:04 pm

         Well the end result is that we are now looking at the possibility of slowing down, ditching some of the most divisive and unwanted projects facing Wellingtonians. If those who voted for the NoM keep their nerve then the we will finally be able to have some fit for purpose policies for Wellington that save money, ease the pressure on rates and make a good start on the water. What's not to like about that?

         NB in your version how does the fact that two Labour councillors were the ones to bring forward the notice of motion that led to all of this. For your version to work they have to be complicit with the 'righties'. Also all of the other councillors who voted for the NoM. Bearing in mind Occams Razor it is more likely that those voting for the change did so because they agreed with the NoM rather than being involved in some plot. That this happened is what they call democracy.

         Reply
         • SPC 8.2.1.2.1

           8 November 2024 at 7:37 pm

           The NoM only occurred because they knew they could block the sale of the airport shares – given notice the 4 righties would play politics (and change their vote) to bring the LTP and the GM project back on "the table".

           1.they now have no path to insurance risk management without borrowing or spending out of rates.

           2.they can only reduce rates by borrowing more for water infrastructure and or spending less on water out of rates money.

           3.there will be saving to government of $70M and either a waste of money spent on the GM already, or its half done and all at council cost.

           The government wants them to borrow more (higher rates in the future), and pose as champions of lower rates pre the 2026 election and to maintain the old order of cars and retail business carparks in CBD. There will be no money from them for "new urban" projects while they are in government.

           Reply
           • Shanreagh 8.2.1.2.1.1

             8 November 2024 at 7:49 pm

             .they can only reduce rates by borrowing more for water infrastructure and or spending less on water out of rates money.

             In point of fact WCC has mismanaged itself. No $$$$ for water should be coming out of rates money according to the usual ways that Local Authroty works are funded.

             Reply
           • Shanreagh 8.2.1.2.1.2

             8 November 2024 at 8:07 pm

             In the interests of seeing whre people are coming from I voted for Tory Whanau as mayor and also for Cnclr Nureddin Abdurahman was my ward councillor. I guess a 50% return is better than nothing.

             I'd be interested to know who you voted for in the WCC elections, ….are you pleased with your choices? I am proud of my ward Cnclr Labour Nureddin Abdurahman for being the one to initiate the NoM. If you listened to his speeches he is coming at the sale of assets/family silver like an old time Labour-ite ie before Douglas and co screwed us all over.

             Reply
     • Shanreagh 8.2.2

       8 November 2024 at 8:02 pm

       Some Cnclrs like Diane Calvert are trying to get a conversation going about items that could be chopped etc. Good on her. All sorts of people have responded with their ideas. Other Cnclrs are trying to deal with the fallout from a terribly-run public meeting on Civic Square/Te Ngakau which was full of council planning speak, ejected a couple of people including a former city planner, stifled questions from the public and finished early.

       In Scoop Stuart Niven, he was a design consultant for the WCC, has written about being ejected from a WCC info meeting. This is incredible

       https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=165406#more-165406

       Helene Ritchie at the same meeting

       https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=165352

       It is these kinds of shenanigans that make Wellingtonians lose faith with Council structures. Add in a huge dose of predetermined consultation on the cycle-way routes, the closing off of the Botanic gardens access to the rose gardens to anything other than cycles and it seems all too hard.

       Reply
9. Kay 9

   8 November 2024 at 3:22 pm

   In the interests of seeing whre people are coming from I voted for Tory Whanau as mayor and also for Cnclr Nureddin Abdurahman was my ward councillor. I guess a 50% return is better than nothing.

   50% is pretty good going- I voted for Whanau and Sarah Free for Ward, so zero return. The latter seems to have a policy of ignoring all emails from her constituents. I can only assume she can't face a inbox overload of criticism about cycleways and pipes.

   A very interesting read, thank you.

   Reply
10. Joe90 10

    8 November 2024 at 3:46 pm

    This video is why foreign media are banned from entering Gaza. Two minutes of absolute devastation.

    Louise Wateridge

    @UNWateridge

    Across northern #Gaza, there is no way of telling where the destruction starts or ends. No matter from what direction you enter #Gaza City, homes, hospitals, schools, health clinics, mosques, apartments, restaurants – all completely flattened. An entire society now a graveyard.

    https://xcancel.com/UNWateridge/status/1854242727480934704

    Reply

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