Open mike 10/10/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 10th, 2013 - 173 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy). Step right up to the mike…

173 comments on “Open mike 10/10/2013 ”

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  1. yeshe 1
    10 October 2013 at 7:38 am

    WTF and OMG !!!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11137661

    The High Court disallows Dow/Monsanto to appear as a witness on its own behalf to corrupt our environment ( for now) but how has it come to this ?????

    Terrifying thoughts to begin a sweet spring morning that Dow/Monsanto already holds sufficient surreptitious sway in NZ to have received the authority to proceed with non-notifiable GM tampering outside our very strict GM controls! Kia Kaha to the Sustainability Council on our behalf. (And it makes the interference on Ruataniwha seem modest by comparison imho.)

    Oh my, just how corrupt is this govt willing to be ?? And all powers of local councils to prevent these developments have been removed.

    NB — almost certainly this denial of permission to appear as witness could NOT have occurred under TPPA. In fact, likely it could never have gotten to the High Court !!!

  2. yeshe 2
    10 October 2013 at 7:54 am

    And is last night’s debate Prof Jane Kelsey vs Dr Wayne to be available online please ?? many thx LPrent.

    • karol 2.1
      10 October 2013 at 8:46 am

      Lyn filmed it. Lynn says it’ll take a day or so to get it online. But it will go online. It was an important debate, and needs to be seen and discussed widely.

      • lprent 2.1.1
        10 October 2013 at 8:55 am

        Bearing in mind Lyn’s workload at present (and mine for that matter) I wouldn’t expect it before the weekend. Last I saw as she was offloading the GB of video was that she was muttering all three mic’ed being pen-clickers 🙂 I got the impression that pen-clicker was some kind of newly discovered swear word. 😈

        I liked that debate. Wayne was pretty clear on the how and why. Jane was as sharp as usual. Getting a much clearer view about why it is being pushed for and what the benefits are, and the downsides.

        • yeshe 2.1.1.1
          10 October 2013 at 9:19 am

          thx so much for making the efforts to have it available .. and yes, pen clickers are trouble to sound techies !!

  3. miravox 3
    10 October 2013 at 8:11 am

    The quality of education (literacy and numeracy) in the countries whose education systems gave us National Standards and Charter Schools. A scroll down to the bottom of the lists is required to see what it’s done for their people aged 16-24. A bit of movement from their results for all adults.

  4. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4
    10 October 2013 at 8:18 am

    Good to hear Cunliffe re-affirming the very sensible policy to increase the age of super eligibility gradually.

  5. Tracey 5
    10 October 2013 at 8:19 am

    Great debate last night. Some may find it hard to believe but I wanted wayne to put some doubt in my mind about wanting to know more he didnt. He said ftas and tppa bring us prosperity pointing to increased trade with those countries we have them with. His second argument was would we really want to not be in it if the others are in.

    • karol 5.1
      10 October 2013 at 8:50 am

      Yes. Wayne is knowledgeable on the issues, but I disagree with his underlying philosophy (which reminded me so much of my Dad’s way back when I argued with him – heated debates at the dinner table). My dad was also knowledgeable and very smart, but he didn’t convince me back then, and neither did Wayne last night.

      Wayne argued that TPP is a very significant agreement involving all Pacific nations, and as a “trading nation” NZ cannot afford to be left out. But s Kelsey showed, there are already many concerns in other countries about the TPP, and it looks to me that there are a lot of cracks where pressure can be applied so that the TPP will start to crumble.

  6. Tracey 6
    10 October 2013 at 8:22 am

    Gormless. I thought I heard joyce saying no. It just seems such a strange thing for the nats to dig their toes in. Perhaps it tells us much of their vote sits amongst baby boomers?

  7. Morrissey 7
    10 October 2013 at 8:23 am

    New Targets for Our Willing Executioners

    Te Reo Putake, Populuxe and others who slavishly follow the party line will no doubt be amplifying some or all of the latest anti-protestor messages. Promising new targets for Te Reo et al. include:

    (1) Those dirty hippies at Greenpeace…
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24461644

    (2) The outrageous Yelena Mizulina….
    http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-duma-activist-defamation/25059748.html

    (3) The troublemaker Baba Jukwe….
    http://www.voanews.com/content/baba-jukwe-zimbabwes-elusive-whistleblower/1702810.html

    Happy hunting, democracy-haters.

  8. Morrissey 8
    10 October 2013 at 8:44 am

    Watch Niall Ferguson get schooled by real economists

    Brad Delong, Paul Krugman and Dean Baker all beat up on Niall Ferguson for making the kind of embarrassing error that would badly damage his career if he were not peddling lies that the rich and powerful want people to believe….

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1381318334.html

    • Ennui 8.1
      10 October 2013 at 2:01 pm

      Excellent link: I have often thought that Fergusson was a wannabe Galbraith, Kenneth Clark or Brunowski, acting as a legitimate teller of the tale on a major BBC doc series. In a strange way he reminds me of the very talented Brannagh attempting to don the Shakespearean mantle of Olivier, and never quite succeeding. At-least his attempts were honest, by contrast Niall appears to work on the principle that if a statement is so sweeping it will be received by we humble viewers as true. I don’t mind him being partisan, no amount of eloquence however can make a false proposition any more real.

  9. logie97 9
    10 October 2013 at 9:06 am

    Yesterday’s Panel with Mora.
    The ever-so-reasonable-sounding-Franks was on and began subtly spouting his party line on topics of justice, Supreme court etc and on ACC. Mora invited Dr Duncan Webb to discuss issues and he appeared to progressively dismantle most of Franks points.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/2572168 (from about 11:19 in)

    • Morrissey 9.1
      10 October 2013 at 9:08 am

      Careful, logie: Te Reo Putake will accuse you of lying….
      http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09102013/#comment-707482

      • Te Reo Putake 9.1.1
        10 October 2013 at 9:14 am

        I didn’t accuse you of lying, Moz, but of being grossly inaccurate. I provided the link to what was actually said, which bore little resemblance to your fictional ‘transcript’.

        At least in earlier exchanges about your inability to transcribe accurately you had the wit to acknowledge that they were just an impression. Which is fine.

        I think you need to make up your mind as to whether they are intended to accurately reflect what is said or whether they are just a pisstake. If it’s the latter, I look forward to a few sniggers at the expense of those you target. If its the former, well, you’re just another jonolist. Though an decidely amateur one, obviously.

        • Morrissey 9.1.1.1
          10 October 2013 at 11:00 am

          1.) I didn’t accuse you of lying, Moz, but of being grossly inaccurate.

          You and a couple of others have repeatedly accused me of “making shit up”. Last night you claimed that “it’s all bullshit from Moz. Nothing in the ‘transcript’ has anything but a passing resemblance to the truth. Ok, Moz gets the names of the participants correct, but the rest is made up.” Yet a few hours later you brazenly claim that you didn’t accuse me of lying. I think you have just been hoist by your own canard.

          2.) I provided the link to what was actually said, which bore little resemblance to your fictional ‘transcript’.

          On the contrary, the link shows my rendition of that conversation was accurate. Not word-perfect, of course, and I never pretended it was.

          3.) At least in earlier exchanges about your inability to transcribe accurately you had the wit to acknowledge that they were just an impression. Which is fine.

          It would be obvious to even the meanest intelligence that my rendition was an impression of what was said. I never claimed it was a transcript. Your quibbling is nothing more than spurious, captious obstinacy.

          4.) I think you need to make up your mind as to whether they are intended to accurately reflect what is said or whether they are just a pisstake.

          My script was accurate. Not word-perfect, but accurate. I believe I captured Franks’s sneering malevolence, and Mora’s mealy-mouthed flippancy. I didn’t write down everything Chris Wikaira said, because he was well into his speech before I even picked up a piece of paper. Certainly the words are not verbatim, but I made up none of it.

          5.) If it’s the latter, I look forward to a few sniggers at the expense of those you target. If its the former, well, you’re just another jonolist. Though an decidely amateur one, obviously.

          You mean I’m not professional, like those outstanding specimens at the BBC, NBC, CBS, Fox News, the Grauniad and all the other government-approved cheerleaders and megaphones. I’m a little bit better than that, I think.

          • weka 9.1.1.1.1
            10 October 2013 at 11:15 am

            You know how nature abhors a vacuum…?

            • Morrissey 9.1.1.1.1.1
              10 October 2013 at 11:18 am

              You know how nature abhors a vacuum
?

              That’s an intriguingly gnomic comment, weka. Could you elucidate for those of us that aren’t quite as smart as you?

              • weka …
                10 October 2013 at 6:33 pm

                Yeah, sorry, just a comment on the space left by Jenny which you have so promptly and generously filled.

                • Rogue Trooper …
                  10 October 2013 at 6:36 pm

                  oooooh

                • McFlock …
                  10 October 2013 at 6:50 pm

                  zing

                • Morrissey …
                  11 October 2013 at 12:05 pm

                  Could you explain what you mean please? I’m mystified. It seems that you’re having a sly dig at me, judging by the response of our friend McFlock, but it’s all very obscure.

                  • weka …
                    11 October 2013 at 9:28 pm

                    You’d think they’d have a word or phrase for this by now. Someone who sucks all the attention out of a group of online commentators, so that most of the effort on the blog goes into inanity and discussing inanity and defending inanity and defending/discussing meta-inanity, instead of discussing the things that the blog is actually about. And someone who does this repeatedly in a predictable fashion.

                    Hence my comment about Jenny leaving and vaccums being filled.

                    • Morrissey …
                      12 October 2013 at 1:05 pm

                      You’d think they’d have a word or phrase for this by now. Someone who sucks all the attention out of a group of online commentators, so that most of the effort on the blog goes into inanity and discussing inanity and defending inanity and defending/discussing meta-inanity, instead of discussing the things that the blog is actually about.

                      The entire raison d’ĂȘtre of my transcripts/reconstructions is to highlight the utter inanity of a significant sector of media commentators in this country. You seem to have mistaken me for my targets. Perhaps you need to ease up on the hallucinogens.

                      And someone who does this repeatedly in a predictable fashion. Hence my comment about Jenny leaving and vaccums [sic] being filled.

                      Your comparison is invalid, glib, and stupid. Sadly that’s something that could be said of most of your posts. Hence the general lack of regard for your efforts on this forum.

          • Te Reo Putake 9.1.1.1.2
            10 October 2013 at 11:49 am

            Cobblers, cobber. You can keep bullshitting all day, but it doesn’t make your dismal effort any more accurate. You are the Stephen Franks of jonolism. It’s great that you now accept it’s only an “impression”. But so is the mark the farmer leaves when he steps in a cowpat. The gumboot still stinks though.

            • Morrissey 9.1.1.1.2.1
              10 October 2013 at 5:23 pm

              One of the nastier strategies employed by John Key and his parliamentary cronies is to bray “He’s making stuff up” whenever they are confronted with something embarrassing. Here’s a typical example from one of the intellectual powerhouses in the National Party….
              http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/10/shearer_makes_it_up.html

              I’m sure others on this mostly excellent forum have noticed one or two of the resident thugs around here using the same formula. As an example, look at how our thuggish friend Te Reo Putake behaves….

              Cobblers, cobber. You can keep bullshitting all day,

              There he goes again!

              ….but it doesn’t make your dismal effort any more accurate.

              First the allegation that I have been dishonest, then the derogatory epithet (“dismal effort”). I am sure that this bloke manages to intimidate a few locals around Whanganui with such behaviour but, as always, on a forum like this he only ends up making himself look bereft of ideas.

              You are the Stephen Franks of jonolism. It’s great that you now accept it’s only an “impression”.

              I’ve never suggested otherwise. I’ve always admitted that my transcripts are a mix of verbatim recording and reconstruction from memory. They are usually done in haste but they are always true to the character and tenor of the conversation. Only a few naysayers have objected, and that has been, in every case, because they have objected to my reminding them that someone they have worshipped is a fraud or an empty bag of wind. In the case of Te Reo Putake, I recall he was incandescent with indignation when I pointed out the rank hypocrisy of this fraud’s putrid method acting here….
              http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/jul/01/barack-obama-nelson-mandela-robben-island-video

              and here….
              http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07072013/#comment-659198

              But so is the mark the farmer leaves when he steps in a cowpat. The gumboot still stinks though.

              Should have quit while you were behind. That only makes you look crude. Then again, maybe it plays well in Whanganui….

              • Te Reo Putake …
                10 October 2013 at 10:44 pm

                Ooooh, reduced to identity speculation. And so typically inaccurate!

                • Morrissey …
                  11 October 2013 at 12:08 pm

                  Ooooh, reduced to identity speculation. And so typically inaccurate!

                  No speculation at all. You do live in Whanganui, as you have repeatedly reminded us on this forum. And far from speculating who you are, I merely suggested that your inept attempts to bully and intimidate people on this site are no doubt a continuation of the way you behave in your everyday life. That’s speculating on your behaviour, not on your identity.

                  • Morrissey …
                    11 October 2013 at 12:40 pm

                    I withdraw and apologize, and skulk back to my corner.

                    • greywarbler …
                      11 October 2013 at 1:48 pm

                      That’s interesting Morrissey, who are you apologising to? You probably have quite a choice, being fairly free-ranging in your egg throwing.

                  • Te Reo Putake …
                    11 October 2013 at 1:02 pm

                    I don’t live in Whanganui, Moz. More made up stuff from you. If only your memory was up to your ambition, eh?

                    And losing arguments does not make you a victim, it just makes you someone who can’t succesfully argue their corner. Of course, if you took more care to be accurate in the first place, you wouldn’t be called on it and you wouldn’t feel as lousy as you obviously do today.

                    You could always wait until RNZ put up the recording and check your impression against it before posting. That’s called fact checking, it’s really useful for keeping your integrity intact.

                    • McFlock …
                      11 October 2013 at 1:23 pm

                      Now, now, TRP – mozz has pointed out that you have repeatedly “reminded us” that you live in Wh. I’m sure, having such accurate recollection, links to the comments where you’ve admitted living in Wh will be along presently.

                      Indeed, it will be a wonderful demonstration of mozz’s outstanding recollective abilities. We will all have to adopt a more humble deference to his important authority when he proves you wrong.

          • McFlock 9.1.1.1.3
            10 October 2013 at 1:42 pm

            if a transcript is not word-perfect, then it is not accurate.

            The matter under debate seems, therefore, to be the level of inaccuracy.

            • Morrissey 9.1.1.1.3.1
              10 October 2013 at 5:34 pm

              if a transcript is not word-perfect, then it is not accurate.

              My renditions are usually pretty close to word-perfect. I even make sure to include every time someone like Hekia Parata uses fillers like “ummmm”, “ahhhh” and “y’know”. The objections to my renditions are ideological.

              The matter under debate seems, therefore, to be the level of inaccuracy.

              I might get the odd word out of order, or transpose sentences, but I am very particular at rendering the tenor and the essence of these conversations. You know that very well, of course.

              • McFlock …
                10 October 2013 at 5:59 pm

                cf:

                You are the Stephen Franks of jonolism. It’s great that you now accept it’s only an “impression”.

                I’ve never suggested otherwise. I’ve always admitted that my transcripts are a mix of verbatim recording and reconstruction from memory. They are usually done in haste but they are always true to the character and tenor of the conversation.

                They are either “pretty close to word-perfect” transcripts, or the wording is off but the tenor or impression of the conversation is accurate (or is your memory “near perfect”?). I’m thinking the difference between a photograph and a Monet. The trouble is that the tone is subjective, especially when reading text that is skewed with disparaging names for some of the participants, so really it comes under satire rather than recording.

                It seems to me that you sort of want it both ways – when people take the trouble to prove that your transcripts aren’t word perfect (and the ones I’ve compared have not been anywhere close), you concede and claim that even so the tenor is correct, but then you go back to claiming they are near-perfect transcripts for the next one.

              • felix …
                11 October 2013 at 4:37 am

                I have shown many times the wording of your impressions to be a long, long way from the words actually spoken. You frequently invent entire sentences.

                I have even demonstrated this after you have claimed that your impression was an exact transcript.

                I’ve also questioned your impression of the tone of conversations before, and found that you add colours like “yell” and “screech” and “awkward silence” when nothing of the like can be heard in the recording.

                My conclusion is that you don’t bother to listen back to recordings after writing your impressions to check what you’ve written. Nothing wrong with that but it makes a mockery of any claim to accuracy, either of colour or content.

                • Morrissey …
                  11 October 2013 at 12:27 pm

                  1.) I have shown many times the wording of your impressions to be a long, long way from the words actually spoken. You frequently invent entire sentences.

                  I occasionally have to reconstruct sentences for the purpose of continuity. Although I get most of it word-perfect, it’s not always the case.

                  2.) I have even demonstrated this after you have claimed that your impression was an exact transcript.

                  We have agreed on this point already. You weaken your case by overstating how wrong I get it, however.

                  3.) I’ve also questioned your impression of the tone of conversations before, and found that you add colours like “yell” and “screech” and “awkward silence” when nothing of the like can be heard in the recording.

                  Now you’re questioning my judgement. The fact is, there are many awkward and embarrassing silences on Jim Mora’s programme. Sometimes this is because people are too stunned or too disgusted to say anything; that happens when someone like Nevil Breivik Gibson or Dr. Michael Bassett is a guest. Other times it comes from an inability to formulate a response to something inane that Mora or one of his more foolish guests, like Christine (Spankin’) Rankin, has said. Whatever the reason, those silences happen. It says a lot that you are now pretending they don’t happen. And I have not used either “yell” or “screech” to denote the tone of anyone. You’re struggling to make your point as it is, and misquoting me like that is just another dent to your credibility.

                  4.) My conclusion is that you don’t bother to listen back to recordings after writing your impressions to check what you’ve written. Nothing wrong with that but it makes a mockery of any claim to accuracy, either of colour or content.

                  There you go again—wildly overstating your case. I don’t always get things verbatim, and I have always conceded that. Instead of chiding me for it, which would be a reasonable thing to do, you make a crazed and extreme statement, showing me no respect and grossly misrepresenting my character and the calibre of my work.

                  This spurious quibbling of yours is cynical and dishonest; you were a fan of my transcripts/reconstructions/dramatizations—call them what you will—until I started to target people and organizations and governments who you have, unwisely, chosen to align yourself with.

                  • felix …
                    11 October 2013 at 12:48 pm

                    Mozza, just because silences exist on a program doesn’t mean you can insert them wherever you like and say you’re being accurate.

                    And no, nothing to do with your choice of target. The truth is I was a fan until I listened to one of the interviews while reading your impressions and noticed that it was about 50% fantasy.

                    And yes, of course I’m questioning your judgement. I’m also questioning your hearing, your attention span, your understanding of many of the words you throw around, and your sense of importance.

                    All have been found lacking on many occasions.

                    • Morrissey …
                      11 October 2013 at 4:18 pm

                      Once again, felix, I am afraid the very good points you make are submerged in a blizzard of extreme statements and distortions. You are obviously an intelligent and discerning fellow, but your determination to portray my (admittedly imperfect) reconstructions/transcripts as “50% fantasy” seriously undermines your credibility.

                      As a matter of interest, could you cite the occasion on which I apparently falsified half of my transcript? And when have I not understood a word I have “thrown around”? Once again, this looks like a case of belittlement and distortion.

                    • McFlock …
                      11 October 2013 at 5:14 pm

                      %3Ca%20href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radionz.co.nz%2Faudio%2Fplayer%2F2572169%22%20rel%3D%22nofollow%22%3EThis%20recording%3C%2Fa%3E(about%2012m%20in%20for%20the%20ToW%20discussion)%0Aversus%20%0A%3Ca%20href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fthestandard.org.nz%2Fopen-mike-09102013%2F%23comment-707380%22%20rel%3D%22nofollow%22%3Ethis%20summary%3C%2Fa%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%0A50%25%20fantasy%20would%20be%20a%20highly%20conservative%20estimate.

                      [translates as]

                      This recording(about 12m30s in for the ToW discussion)
                      versus
                      this summary

                      50% fantasy would be a highly conservative estimate.

                      [lprent: fixed and confirmation that it is in the edit. ]

                    • McFlock …
                      11 October 2013 at 5:24 pm

                      argh shit – any chance of a moderator rolling back my “just out of time” edit? I was trying to change “12m30s” to “12min”, and must have submitted the edit with half a second to spare, or royally bollocked the comment up.

                      [lprent: Looks like there was an occasional bug in this mornings update of the re-edit. Looks like it is working most of the time, otherwise I’d turn it off until I can get to the backups. ]

                    • McFlock …
                      11 October 2013 at 6:15 pm

                      thanks muchly 🙂

                  • McFlock …
                    11 October 2013 at 12:53 pm

                    🙄

                    I occasionally have to reconstruct sentences for the purpose of continuity.

                    Most round-about way of phrasing “make shit up” I’ve seen in a long while.

                    • Morrissey …
                      11 October 2013 at 4:12 pm

                      Most round-about way of phrasing “make shit up” I’ve seen in a long while.

                      I made up nothing. As we can see from your vicious campaign of misrepresenting and distorting my contributions, you are the one in the business of lying. Not that you do it very well, mind you.

                    • McFlock …
                      11 October 2013 at 4:53 pm

                      sorry, where’s the links to trp claiming they live in Whanganui?

                  • Pascal's bookie …
                    11 October 2013 at 5:28 pm

                    The fact is, there are many awkward and embarrassing silences on Jim Mora’s programme. Sometimes this is because people are too stunned or too disgusted to say anything; that happens when someone like Nevil Breivik Gibson or Dr. Michael Bassett is a guest. Other times it comes from an inability to formulate a response to something inane that Mora or one of his more foolish guests, like Christine (Spankin’) Rankin, has said. Whatever the reason, those silences happen. It says a lot that you are now pretending they don’t happen

                    those italics indicate the parts of your pieces where you make shit up.

                    You don’t know what those silences mean. You project meaning into them though, and claim that what you interpret them to mean, is what actually happened.

                    The classic example of something similar was when someone was talking about someone else, and you claimed that she was actually talking about her husband.

                    • Morrissey …
                      11 October 2013 at 6:04 pm

                      those italics indicate the parts of your pieces where you make shit up.

                      Nonsense. Your comments are completely spurious. I interpreted their comments, and their awkward and embarrassed silences, fairly and correctly. You know that, too, of course, but you’ve embarked on a course of bloodymindedly backing up the destructive behaviour of a few people determined to sabotage any dissenting voices on this forum.

                      You don’t know what those silences mean. You project meaning into them though, and claim that what you interpret them to mean, is what actually happened.

                      Okay then, let’s pretend that the long silence that followed after Michael Bassett snarled that Nicky Hager “is a holocaust-denier” was because everyone was simply appreciating Bassett’s wit, eloquence and moral authority. I think most people will agree with me that the silence indicated something else, just as the silences that follow some of Mora’s more inane utterances indicate that something has gone wrong. By all means take a benevolent view of that. Just make sure you let us know when the space shuttle has returned from orbit, will you?

                      The classic example of something similar was when someone was talking about someone else, and you claimed that she was actually talking about her husband.

                      You mean this little episode….
                      http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22032013/#comment-607420

                      Of course, anyone with half a brain could have seen I was taking the michael, but poor old felix and bad12 obviously missed the humour in it. More to the point: so do you, all this time later, which is a worry.

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      11 October 2013 at 7:04 pm

                      Yeah, that’s the one.

                      And I remember it because that’s when I decided your little things aren’t worth bothering with.

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      11 October 2013 at 7:10 pm

                      And here you are claiming it wasn’t a joke at all:

                      http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-18042013/#comment-621262

                      Obviously just another joke. Which is the point. If you want to make jokes, make jokes, but don;t present them as transcripts and get haughty when people say that they aren’t accurate representations of what happened.

                      It is never the readers’ fault when so many of them don’t get what a writer is doing. It just means the writing doesn’t work.

          • Ennui 9.1.1.1.4
            10 October 2013 at 1:48 pm

            I’m a little bit better than that, I think. I think so too, even if (I think) I know more about rugby than you!!!!! Carry on amusing me please.

            • Morrissey 9.1.1.1.4.1
              11 October 2013 at 8:37 pm

              Yeah, that’s the one. And I remember it because that’s when I decided your little things aren’t worth bothering with.

              You mean: that’s when you realized you didn’t have a hope of formulating a coherent or intelligent response.

              Word of advice, my flustered, bewildered friend: quit while you’re behind.

              • Pascal's bookie …
                11 October 2013 at 9:04 pm

                You see Morrissey, you have nothing but this tiresome bluster. It’s all you ever respond with.

                I said your things aren’t worth bothering with. And that’s what I meant. There’s nothing to form a coherent response to. They aren’t realistic descriptions or critiques of what were said, and as humour then they are merely personal attacks on people. What is so grand about saying that you don’t like Wilson’s husband?

                Awesome piece there, pointing out that you feel the same way about her husband as she feels about someone else. That was the ‘joke’ right?

                Fill yer boots, but like I said, getting on your high horse claiming that it is an accurate depiction of what happened is just rubbish. It does no one any good. It’s better written than kiwiblog comments, if overwrought for my taste, but the level of what is going on is about the same.

                • Morrissey …
                  11 October 2013 at 9:23 pm

                  1.) You see Morrissey, you have nothing but this tiresome bluster. It’s all you ever respond with.

                  That’s not true. I have responded in good faith to every point you made, yet your only rejoinder is to dismiss it all as “tiresome bluster”. That’s laziness on your part, pure and simple. Judging by most of the stuff you’ve written on this forum, you’re far better than that. Maybe you need a good sleep, my friend.

                  2.) I said your things aren’t worth bothering with. And that’s what I meant. There’s nothing to form a coherent response to.

                  Nonsense. You are simply making no sense.

                  3.) They aren’t realistic descriptions or critiques of what were said, and as humour then they are merely personal attacks on people.

                  So I don’t critique these people? My evocations of them aren’t realistic? You either: (a) just don’t understand what I’m doing; (b) think that there is something commendable about Jim Mora’s laughing at the victims of state repression or Chris Trotter’s windy admonitions to respect lynch law in the Deep South; or (c) you are deliberately misrepresenting my work.

                  4.)What is so grand about saying that you don’t like Wilson’s husband?

                  That’s not what I said. My piece was far more nuanced and serious than that.

                  5.) Awesome piece there, pointing out that you feel the same way about her husband as she feels about someone else. That was the ‘joke’ right?

                  No, there was more to it than that. I was critiquing one half of a hideous right wing husband-wife team. My purpose was utterly serious, even though my method was, as others have said, satirical.

                  6.) Fill yer boots, but like I said, getting on your high horse claiming that it is an accurate depiction of what happened is just rubbish. It does no one any good. It’s better written than kiwiblog comments, if overwrought for my taste, but the level of what is going on is about the same.

                  I appreciate your positive comparison of my modest oeuvre to Farrar’s miserable, crappy blog. I actually think your writing is very good, most of the time; I’m just mystified as to why you are so truculent in your criticism of what I do. I appreciate I am not always correct and am often overly harsh, but I am absolutely prepared to modify my views.

                • Rogue Trooper …
                  11 October 2013 at 11:16 pm

                  Pb, your style works for me.
                  Chin up Morrissey.

            • Morrissey 9.1.1.1.4.2
              11 October 2013 at 8:42 pm

              Obviously just another joke.

              Obviously. But not to you, obviously.

              It is never the readers’ fault when so many of them don’t get what a writer is doing.

              What on earth are you wittering about? “So many of them”? Even my mortal enemies around here—Te Reo, McFuck, Populuxe—understood I was taking the piss. Only you seem to have been incapable of appreciating the joke.

              It just means the writing doesn’t work.

              It worked fine. If I operated on making my work completely comprehensible to the lowest common denominator (i.e. you and Brett Dale) there would be no point in carrying on. I’m interested in engaging more substantial characters.

              • McFlock …
                11 October 2013 at 8:54 pm

                1: no,I don’t know that

                2: “mortal enemy”? Get over yourself.

              • Pascal's bookie …
                11 October 2013 at 9:10 pm

                But it’s obvious that you can’t engage, Morrissey. You never do.

                All you do is say:

                ‘I’m too clever for you and I am obviously correct. fapfapfapaboutmyownstaidproseforahundredwordsfapfap.’

                • Morrissey …
                  11 October 2013 at 9:29 pm

                  But it’s obvious that you can’t engage, Morrissey. You never do.

                  Actually, the precise opposite is the case, my friend.

                  All you do is say: ‘I’m too clever for you and I am obviously correct. fapfapfapaboutmyownstaidproseforahundredwordsfapfap.’

                  Again, I don’t do that, and I certainly don’t think that I’m cleverer than you or anyone else here.

  10. Pascal's bookie 10
    10 October 2013 at 9:49 am

    Can’t wait to see what the MOM fans spin is on the fact that MRP can’t think of anything better to do with its profits than buy shares in itself.

    • karol 10.1
      10 October 2013 at 9:52 am

      Rod Oram tweeted:

      MRP buys back shares – this is classic, desperate strategy of companies with excess profits, no growth opportunities and ailing share price

      • bad12 10.1.1
        10 October 2013 at 10:12 am

        The well monied Board and Senior Managers of Might River having bought into the shares big-time with the aid of multi-million dollar bank loans, now in a situation of ongoing negative equity USING the profits, of which 51% belong to you and me, in an attempt to pump up the value where they can safely unload???,

        Not to mention the ‘blind trust managers’ who bought into Mighty River en masse on behalf of their very public figure beneficiaries facing the prospect of an ongoing very large loss demanding those in charge of Mighty River do something???,

        Bock, Bock, Bock, the chickens have come home to roost early this year Wilbur…

    • Puckish Rogue 10.2
      10 October 2013 at 11:22 am

      This is what Warren Buffet prefers, the less shares there are the more valuble the remaining shares are

      This is good

      • Pascal's bookie 10.2.1
        10 October 2013 at 11:43 am

        3/10 must try harder

        • Puckish Rogue 10.2.1.1
          10 October 2013 at 2:46 pm

          I own shares in MRP and I approve of this action

          • bad12 10.2.1.1.1
            10 October 2013 at 3:01 pm

            Aaaah losers, the National Party is full of them, the small time ‘i own shares brigade’, how much of that useless paper are you holding,

            What’s your dollar losses so far, not quite time to panic just yet, BUT, think September 2015 and the Labour/Green Government should be well on the way to introducing Legislation for the power sector reforms,(of course they may already have it in draft form which will change the above to well on the way to Passing Legislation),

            Now you can ‘Gamble’, will your piddling little parcel of shares by September 2015 have regained their original price enabling you to unload them and still keep your shirt, or will the Labour/Green electricity reforms pass through the Parliament befor this can occur and bite another 1/3 off of the share price,

            You ‘gamble’, you ‘lose’, thank your mates over at National Party HQ for selling you a ‘Lemon’…

  11. karol 11
    10 October 2013 at 9:50 am

    Is the Daily Mail correct in this reporting, or just stirring it up? It reckons Kuwait has developed medical test to detect gays and prevent them from entering the country. Futile or what? Or is it just a way to keep out anyone they choose?

    He [Yousouf Mindkar, the director of public health at the Kuwaiti health ministry] told Kuwait newspaper Al Rai: ‘Health centres conduct the routine medical check to assess the health of the expatriates when they come into the GCC countries. However, we will take stricter measures that will help us detect gays who will be then barred from entering Kuwait or any of the GCC member states.’

    • King Kong 11.1
      10 October 2013 at 11:48 am

      Apparently you can check the hip bones for unusual wear, which is a sure sign of exaggerated mincing. They also put on show tunes and check for elevated heart rate.

      • tinfoilhat 11.1.1
        10 October 2013 at 12:10 pm

        I know I shouldn’t but I did LOL at your sarcasm.

        • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.1
          10 October 2013 at 12:17 pm

          KK actually demonstrated funniness for once…

          • Rogue Trooper 11.1.1.1.1
            10 October 2013 at 12:20 pm

            …it’s a sub. – routine they’ve learned.

          • King Kong 11.1.1.1.2
            10 October 2013 at 12:58 pm

            For once…my arse.

            Without me this place would be as funny as a Russian bread queue which, if you boyfriend has his way and nationalises the supermarkets, people will discover is not very funny at all.

            • weka 11.1.1.1.2.1
              10 October 2013 at 7:24 pm

              Actually that comment IS pretty funny (the Russian bread queue one). The problem with most of your other comments that would otherwise be funny is that they’re either cruel, mean or just plain obnoxious. Makes it harder to laugh.

            • tricledrown 11.1.1.1.2.2
              10 October 2013 at 11:14 pm

              klueless klutz waiting in a russian bread que is better than the 4 million sleeping under tarpaulins in the US the home of the free market.

              • Colonial Viper …
                10 October 2013 at 11:21 pm

                And let’s not forget that the destitution which befell millions of citizens of the former USSR in the 10 years after Gorbachev was largely due to self-serving advice from investment banks like Goldman Sachs and neoliberal institutions like the IMF.

      • North 11.1.2
        10 October 2013 at 12:52 pm

        Would that be why ShonKey Python’s booked into Mercy Hospital in Epsom then ? A job lot on the hips AND the simper for oh so busy Baby Churchill World Leader ?

      • karol 11.1.3
        10 October 2013 at 1:13 pm

        and women?

        • King Kong 11.1.3.1
          10 October 2013 at 1:36 pm

          You are trying to get me banned tempting me like that.

          I will show restraint, but it is a shame as I did have a good gag about Persian rugs.

    • Augustus 11.2
      10 October 2013 at 11:48 am

      Qatar, another GCC member, will host the men’s soccer world cup in 2022. In 2018, Russia will be the host. Looks like the FIFA has an agenda for the future. So much for sport bringing people together..

    • Lindsey 11.3
      10 October 2013 at 12:55 pm

      Bloody good reason for avoiding their airlines and their countries. I will spend my pink dollars elsewhere.

  12. Rogue Trooper 12
    10 October 2013 at 9:50 am

    3rd Degree Burns
    Marie Dyhrberg
    -1/3 of crime not reported
    -20000 IPCA complaints per year; 5% investigated.
    -“seeing a slippery slope” develop
    -implementation of Curruther’s reform recommendations should produce greater openness

    Ian Lambie
    -“I see some inappropriate / illegal behaviour”.

    36% of police staff lack confidence that their superiors will action (in-house) complaints.

    surprisingly, considering the studio audience, before the ‘debate’ they were split 50/50 over whether “the public are losing trust in the Police”.

    Overall ‘Vote’ for the country- 56% Yes, the police are losing our trust.
    Well, this old dog can come in from the cold and rest his bone.

    Exclamation of the evening: “Only Jesus is beyond reproach, and he’s got His detractors” (Same)- Pam Corkery.

    (excellent to see the lawyers giving Garner and Espinor a tune-up) 😀

    • McFlock 12.1
      10 October 2013 at 1:51 pm

      The police prosecutor struck me as having the same intonations and simplistic analogies as the police association guy (name escapes me at moment). Must be a cop thing. But when she likened confidence in the police to still supporting the All Blacks even if a player fumbled the ball, the line screaming to be used was the damage match-fixing did to cricket, or even championship wrestling in the US. The last thing we need is a police force with the credibility of WWE.

      • fender 12.1.1
        10 October 2013 at 2:01 pm

        He’s “need a gun on every hip” Greg O’Conner, police union broken record guy.

        • McFlock 12.1.1.1
          10 October 2013 at 2:32 pm

          that’s the chappie. Bit of a dick, really.

          • fender 12.1.1.1.1
            10 October 2013 at 2:41 pm

            Have to agree with you there mate. Every time he surfaces I’m left wondering if he has that job for life or will they update for the modern world one day.

  13. lprent 13
    10 October 2013 at 11:06 am

    Outage was due to a MSNbot from redmond going apeshit scanning the site

    I’d increased the limits the other day, evidently too far. Dropped them back and increased the block time from 10 minutes to an hour

  14. Rosie 14
    10 October 2013 at 1:50 pm

    Some of you may have seen a short item on 3news about a factory fire that killed (as was reported last night), 10 workers in Bangladesh. You might have said to yourself, “Bloody hell, not again”.

    Turns out that once again it is a factory that has contracts with Gap and Walmart. You would think they would have acted to ensure their workplaces were safe after over 1000 workers died in the Rana Plaza collapse and fire several months ago.

    “While 90 other companies have joined together in the Accord on Fire and Building Safety in Bangladesh, an agreement between companies and unions, Walmart has refused. Instead, Walmart teamed up with Gap to create a corporate-controlled program that is hardly more than a facelift of the programs that have failed Bangladeshi workers in the past. Meanwhile, the death toll continues to climb. Please take action now – join with us in calling on Walmart and Gap to stop putting profits over people’s lives”.

    From International Labor Rights Forum

    http://action.laborrights.org/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=7262

  15. McFlock 15
    10 October 2013 at 1:54 pm

    Oh wow, even tories are coming around to Keynesianism.

    Another plank of credibility removed from those who want to see inequality and hardship persist in the world.

    • Draco T Bastard 15.1
      10 October 2013 at 3:19 pm

      Ha, this sub-link is good:

      According to a new report by the Congressional Research Service, cutting taxes for the wealthiest does not cause economic growth, despite constant conservative claims that it will. Instead, tax cuts for the rich merely exacerbate income inequality,

      Which is what we on the left have been saying for decades.

  16. joe90 16
    10 October 2013 at 2:13 pm

    Barking – and one day they could have their finger on the button.

    So to pull all this logic together, God anoints priests to work in the church directly and kings to go out into the marketplace to conquer, plunder, and bring back the spoils to the church. The reason governmental regulation has to disappear from the marketplace is to make it completely available to the plunder of Christian “kings” who will accomplish the “end time transfer of wealth.” Then “God’s bankers” will usher in the “coming of the messiah.” The government is being shut down so that God’s bankers can bring Jesus back.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morgan-guyton/the-theology-of-governmen_b_4020537.html

    • Ugly Truth 16.1
      10 October 2013 at 2:47 pm

      Ted Cruz may well be barking mad about a lot of stuff, but he is close to the mark here:

      When you hear this attack on religion, it’s not really an attack on religion. The fundamental basis is this. Socialism requires that government becomes your God. That’s why they have to destroy your concept of God. They have to destroy all your loyalties except loyalty to the government. That’s what’s behind homosexual marriage. It’s really more about the destruction of the traditional family than about homosexuality, because you need also to destroy loyalty to the family.

      An example of this is the state’s removal of all reference of obligations owed to deity in law. The state is happy enough to pay lip service to deity and exercise the benefit of making oath, but when it comes to obligations, the rules of the state are given the status of law while the real law is ignored.

    • Rogue Trooper 16.3
      10 October 2013 at 3:17 pm

      absolutely (and don’t forget the LDS).
      anyway joe, this has been a central tenet of my thesis all through.
      However, thanks to TS commentators, some helpful books and an enquiring mind…

      so, here’s a mousetrap;
      “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many”
      -Mark 10:42-
      so simple really 😀

      was reading yesterday of more RC cover-ups (from the highest levels) in the St Paul-Minnesota region.

  17. Tony Parker 17
    10 October 2013 at 2:15 pm

    So another school closure has been ruled as unlawful.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11138079
    That’s 2 now that have been challenged and found to be unlawful. She’s not doing well with this.

    • Chooky 17.1
      10 October 2013 at 6:06 pm

      @ Tony Parker….reasons for closure seem spurious, unfathomable and cooked ..at least to the School Principal interviewed on National Radio…which makes one wonder ….did Nact plan to replace this state school community with Nact’s own special Charter School imposition?…ie usurp the buildings for a Charter School?….Was this the hidden agenda for the illegitimate closure?

  18. Puckish Rogue 18
    10 October 2013 at 2:58 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11137643

    – Well done John Key and Bill english, you don’t have to be flashy you just need to get the job done

    • Rogue Trooper 18.1
      10 October 2013 at 3:20 pm

      and ignore the current account balance (amongst other indicators).

      • aerobubble 18.1.1
        10 October 2013 at 3:31 pm

        Activity is King. Doesn’t matter that bad law is rushed onto the books, that govt gets more accomplished at choosing lawyers that given them the decisions they want, oh, no, the cost are left to future parliaments to pay. Take Howards policies regards kiwis in OZ. The upper chamber in Australia doesn’t work, and we in NZ don’t have one, hopefully as money becomes scare society may again feel the need to write good law.

    • Draco T Bastard 18.2
      10 October 2013 at 3:51 pm

      Growth is unsustainable so it’s certainly nothing to be crowing about. Bringing about the destruction of our environment isn’t what we need to do.

    • Paul 18.3
      10 October 2013 at 6:27 pm

      Is this going to be your daily comment, pr?
      The Herald is a right wing rag and constantly writes puff pieces in support of their corporate mates.
      Show me a more independent source lauding this government please.

    • miravox 18.4
      10 October 2013 at 7:24 pm

      The IMF must be expecting the Christchurch rebuild to be getting up to full speed then. For the sake of the people who live there, I hope so. They’ve been waiting far too long.

    • tricledrown 18.5
      10 October 2013 at 11:49 pm

      pukesh roque the only reason GDP is up is because the US dollar is sliding on a downward spiral.
      If the debt ceiling in the US is not solved its bubble bursting time!
      The US stock market is already in free fall the property bubble in NZ will follow our dollar will increase in value reducing our exports!
      Leading back to 2008 scenarios!

  19. North 19
    10 October 2013 at 3:16 pm

    Sorry, can’t find the comment which alerted me to Gordon Campbell’s article as it relates to the need for an independent body to identify and refer back to appropriate appellate courts, potential miscarriages of justice:

    http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2013/10/10/gordon-campbell-on-the-cunliffe-speech-and-the-mark-lundy-decision/

    The considered views of Professor Graham Zellick* recounted in Campbell’s article really do underline what an hubristic, dangerous philistine is Judith Collins in Justice.

    This government more and more resembles the crazed Tea Party backwoodsmen of the US.

    *Professor Zellick – the man who headed the equivalent UK body 2003-2008.

  20. joe90 20
    10 October 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Change clocked. Nature: abstract (paper pay walled) and summary.

    The Indonesian city of Manokwari is poised to become an unwitting icon for climate change. In about 2020, the coastal location will become one of the first places in recent history to adopt an entirely new climate — one in which its coldest years will be consistently hotter than any of the past 150 years.

    That is one finding of a study published today in Nature1, which attempts to create a region-specific index of climate change. Researchers sought to identify the point at which temperature oscillations in each area will exceed the bounds of historical variability. Such ‘climate departures’ are predicted to start in the tropics and then spread to higher latitudes. If carbon dioxide emissions continue unabated, Earth’s mean climate could depart from historical averages in 2047.

    Visualised.

    http://www.soc.hawaii.edu/mora/PublicationsCopyRighted/Cities%20Timing.html

  21. chris73 21
    10 October 2013 at 5:38 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/9268153/Sonny-Bill-I-would-ve-had-lifelong-regrets

    – Well maybe Sonny Bill you should stop whatever it is your manager tells you to do and start using your head, yes I’m sure you feel bad for the guy whos place you took however if you had declared your availability before the announcement none of this would have happened

    But then that’d be less publicity for you I suppose…

    (Sorry just had to get that of my chest)

  22. Tracey 22
    10 October 2013 at 6:09 pm

    In just 2 days’ time, African leaders could kill off a great institution, leaving the world a more dangerous place. The International Criminal Court (ICC) is the world’s first and only global court to adjudicate crimes against humanity. But leaders of Sudan and Kenya, who have inflicted terror and fear across their countries, are trying to drag Africa out of the ICC, allowing them the freedom to kill, rape, and inspire hatred without consequences. I know that together we can change this. But we have to join hands and call on the voices of reason at the African Union (AU) – Nigeria and South Africa – to speak out and ensure that the persecuted are protected by the ICC. Join me by adding your name to the petition now and share it with everyone — when we have hit 1 million our petition will be delivered straight into the AU conference hall where Africa’s leaders are meeting in Addis Ababa. –Desmond Tutu

  23. joe90 23
    10 October 2013 at 6:16 pm

    The proposed new yoke – same as old yoke.

    Although the government’s initiative promotes a separation between Islam and politics, opponents say that the new push serves the decidedly political purpose of casting a divine glow on the brutal crackdown against supporters of ousted president Mohamed Morsi. Hundreds of Morsi’s backers in the Muslim Brotherhood have been killed and thousands arrested by authorities, who describe them as “terrorists.”

    “This is the new regime trying to create an official Islam, a state Islam, which doesn’t exist within the Islamic tradition,” said Emad Shahin, a professor of public policy at the American University in Cairo. “It’s providing a religious justification to tolerate the killing of possibly thousands of people, and it is sending alarming signals into many segments of society. This is exactly what you call fa**ism.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-egypt-a-campaign-to-promote-an-egyptian-islam/2013/10/09/45060fca-29b3-11e3-b141-298f46539716_story.html

  24. Joe T 24
    10 October 2013 at 8:54 pm

    As Adam Smith (a fellow Scot) said in his “scripture” “all wealth comes from labour”. He is right, whether physical or mental, labour is the source of all wealth. Unrest , wars, political upheaval and inequality are a product of the struggle for control of the wealth. What is recent is simply that it is now globally apparent thanks to global communications.

  26. xtasy 26
    10 October 2013 at 9:50 pm

    Today in Auckland City:

    A peaceful protester holds up a sign on the side of the footpath or pedestrian walk along Queen Street for a while, then gets approached by two yellow vested “City Crew” or “City View” staffers employed by Council. One wore a security firm’s sign on his shirt too. They approached the person and asked: “Have you been here for long?” The protester answered: “A while”, so they asked: “Will you be here any much longer?” The person facing them answers with: “Well, I have set myself some time, but probably not all that much longer”. Then the two City Council staffers ask: “Do you mind me asking me for your name?” The protester answers: “Why, what is the problem, this is freedom of expression, democracy?” Also the person says: “I do not feel I need to give you any details.” Then the senior person of the Council staff says (he is Pakeha, his colleagues Polynesian of large build): “Well, do you mind me taking a photo then?” The protester says: “Well, no that is your choice, I have no problem with that”. So the Council staffer steps back a bit, takes a photo and after that they walk on. He also said before that, they were concerned with “City Profile”.

    What I also noticed is: Auckland City has suddenly been “cleansed” of ALL beggars and other persons, that I used to see in Queen Street and thereabouts. Now, what is going on, I ask?

    To me this is: FASCISM in the making!!! There are under Mayor Len Brown and his Council now efforts made to remove “undesired” out of the CBD and possibly other areas, no matter whether they are begging, sitting around too long, or daring to stage a quiet, peaceful, sidewalk kind of “protest”!!!

    This is highly concerning, and it is worth mentioning here, as we have also here in New Zealand too many that are SILENT in their majority, and most are the typical “law abiding”, “hard working”, “decent” and “peaceful” MIDDLE CLASS.

    Do you, as middle class member, or other Aucklander find that this is acceptable, what I just described? If so, or if not, I ask for your feedback, please, a worried Auckland, with a migrant background, from a “free view” kind of culture,

    Xtasy

    • miravox 26.1
      10 October 2013 at 10:09 pm

      No, it’s not acceptable. It’s entirely unacceptable. From what you’ve described Auckland is not as far down the track of restricting the right of protest as the US. So I’m guessing there will be a few battles to fight to keep the right to protest on a footpath if there are bureaucrats worried about the ‘tone’. Maybe they should be worrying about how to fix the problems that cause the protests.

      • xtasy 26.1.1
        10 October 2013 at 10:48 pm

        There was NO issue about the “tone”, as the person just stood there, did not even speak to people, unless being asked for a flyer, some of which he had! So I found it appalling, when I heard about it.

        • miravox 26.1.1.1
          11 October 2013 at 12:30 am

          I didn’t mean to imply there was a problem with the tone of the protester, I meant the snobby ‘tone of the neighbourhood’ meme that some people, and the bureaucrats drag out when things they don’t like confront them. I think the officials being concerned about the “city profile” pretty much fits the bill.

    • Sanctuary 26.2
      10 October 2013 at 10:15 pm

      Exhibit #1 You can’t even build a Bunnings store on a shithole site on Great North Road without upsetting themiddle class liberal folk of Grey Lynn – an unkempt guy with a sign could lower property values!

      Exhibit #2 We have a homeless person who comes into our work a couple of times a week. He goes into the loos open to visitors and washes himself, he never takes more than his shirt off and he is quiet and tidy. Someone mentioned this to our manager (a nice, earnest, middle class cookie cutter middle manager type who lacks a sense of humour or an imagination and spends most of his life re-measuring and re-weighing the pig) and he called security. Most of the staff were appalled. This guy isn’t harming anyone. So now we conspire to keep the old guys visits secret.

      Given those two examples of our middleclass groupthink, what chance do you think has beggar has in Queen Street?

      • karol 26.2.1
        11 October 2013 at 8:09 am

        Sanctuary, I don’t think the Bnnings protest is at all in the same bag as the harrassment of street protestors and the guy washing himself.

        There is an issue in my area of how commercial and retail interests are getting the prime sites in terms of the regeneration of the area. There is far less provision for community activities in the sites being allocated – it all smacks of money talking in the direction local councils are taking towards local developments.

        OTOH, not allowing the guy to wash, or protests or begging in Queen Street is an issue of middle classes wanting to colonise and protect spaces in their own interest.

    • McFlock 26.3
      10 October 2013 at 10:22 pm

      ask to see their ID. And security licence/certificate of approval if they’re wearing a security uniform.

      • xtasy 26.3.1
        10 October 2013 at 10:54 pm

        McFlock – yes, I know all that, but the attempt was made to challenge, and get answers, without even identifying themselves. So naturally the person refused to state name and so forth. The whole attitude of those persons was disgusting, I feel, as they should just have left the guy alone, as he was just standing there, and I saw it, doing NO harm or disturbance at all.

        It seems they just personally disliked the fact someone was standing there with a controversial sign, raising question, that were not really offensive either, just challenging an office’s handling of something.

        And yes, the middle class are dangerous in my view, that is to Sanctuary, as they are blinded by generated “fears” and mindless “narrow thinking” how things should be, they also fear to take a stand, so condone authoritarian approaches by authorities.

        There was research done many years ago, in Los Angeles and also in Sweden, showing that about 80 per cent of human beings in any society rather put up with abuse, or even collectively join abuse to others, merely to protect themselves from being “different” or in danger of risking their “security”.

        That is human behaviour, and the Nazis knew that you can intimidate and manipulate, so do others, nowadays.

        • McFlock 26.3.1.1
          11 October 2013 at 12:33 pm

          aye, true enough.

          But having been on both sides of the petty security fence, I’ve also found that pieces of paper scare enforcers as much as they intimidate the populace.

          The guards were either deployed (my guess is by a shopkeeper who made a complaint) or came across the protestor on their travels – in the first case, they’d be annoyed at having to do work; in the second case they’d just be bored. The knack is to be more trouble than it’s worth without raising their hackles (vengeance can motivate an awful lot of paperwork and dot-connecting in the depths of the graveyard shift 🙂 ).

          Mind you, doing security in Dunners my preferred tactic was generally to have a cup of tea and a chat before/ratherthan demanding name rank and serial number, unless the situation demanded prickface from the get-go.

  27. xtasy 27
    11 October 2013 at 1:40 am

    From Chilean Illapu Blog:

    “Top Comments

    jaime contreras 9 months ago

    En 1977 , con 17 años de edad,y elemento del grupo Fulano de tal de la ciudad de san Luis PotosĂ­, MĂ©xico, cantamos las canciones de Illapu, los aplausos nunca los olvidarĂ©. Mi padre me dijo entonces, queï»ż habĂ­amos descubierto una hermosa mĂșsica y desde luego identidad. Las cantamos en plazas y fuimos felices y hoy mĂĄs. GRACIAS ILLAPU…”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXRTfOy4EVY

    This is Andean music in its original form, and those not appreciative of this better take no notice. This is about Latin America and the REAL people living there and that deserve all rights and respects, and many to fight for them, all in line with revolutionary solidarity.

    Viva, el pueblo de Chile y Peru!

  28. xtasy 28
    11 October 2013 at 2:04 am

    Respeto a Camilla Vallejo, la Comunista y Socialista de Chile, por la educacion libre:

  29. xtasy 29
    11 October 2013 at 2:30 am

    I am struggling to get sense into some people here, I know, but the following just shows the bloody challenge we face, few here even get it (if ever):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSukitimNdo

    There is much more at stake, there are established presidents and forces, and they are voted for, they cannot be thrown out, but some here on this and other forums pretend that there is major change possible, while that all depends on what other people and countries do.

    Get a wake up call, please, I am despairing anyway. X

  30. xtasy 30
    11 October 2013 at 2:51 am

    The biggest enemy of New Zealand are your OWN PEople!!!

    I see and hear this every day, I witness it all the time, at work, at open spaces, at social events, New Zealanders are NO LONGER ONE, you are ALL divided and full of suspicion and hatred towards each other, this makes you weak and vulnerable. The enemy knows this, that is the employers, the bosses, the admin and so, so they take you to the cleaners.

    Also one major is migration without much cohesion, so anybody can come, sell skills, investment, even just buy a house and get PR, but they do NOT connect and have little expectation to be part of NZ.

    I have hundreds of stories, and you lefties better wake up to this too, as the politically correct approach has long been redundant.

    We are screwed, sold and shat on, that is NZ 2013, and I am a damned migrant myself saying this, I should not have to, as you Kiwis should be speaking up, but almost nobody does.

    What a shame and shambles this country has become. I feel sorry and sick and ashamed!

    • Sanctuary 30.1
      11 October 2013 at 6:54 am

      Perhaps you ought to consider earlier nights. Just saying. 🙂

    • greywarbler 30.2
      11 October 2013 at 11:02 am

      xtasy
      You make good points and are onto it. But there is a strange psychological process in one’s mind that I discovered some years back. That is, on the day that you are out of sorts, everyone else seems dull and unfriendly. I think it’s called transference or something.

      And for the sake of your health you will need to take some time off thinking how things are, worrying and sad as it is. Have a book to read about something else, some fiction with some good happy bits in it, or look at Yes Minister and then Eddie Izzard or the like and have a soothing drink and go to bed so you wake refreshed to worry and again present facts and solutions the next day. Things are happening and we can only run alongside the moving present and try to remove most of the rotten material before it reaches its destructive potential.

      While others just concentrate on themselves, looking at the ground around them, someone has to look up and talk about the obstacles looming. But it’s tiring and dispiriting, and we all have to give ourselves a break. Remind yourself that there are good people trying to make a breakthrough, and while the thinkers are (probably a large) minority, it’s not something to bear on your own. Watch Babylon 5 for a different slant even.

  31. Morrissey 31
    11 October 2013 at 4:06 pm

    That’s interesting Morrissey, who are you apologising to?

    I was apologising to my old friend Te Reo Putake, whom I had erroneously accused of living in … (shudder) … Whanganui.

    You probably have quite a choice, being fairly free-ranging in your egg throwing.

    Actually, I’m pretty precise, but I take your larger point, and think this is the perfect time to make a broad apology to everyone I may have offended over the last two and a half years….

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-twGsynRkcck/T-ZJ60GmKjI/AAAAAAAAAmU/NxR0af4EyKs/s1600/cute-sad-kitten06.jpg