Open mike 11/02/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 11th, 2023 - 176 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

176 comments on “Open mike 11/02/2023 ”

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  1. Jenny are we there yet 1
    11 February 2023 at 6:25 am

    Words have consequences. As the famous World War II poster warned us, "Loose Lips Sink Ships"

    Loose talk costs lives.

    Those who deliberately spread malicious lies and disinformation, also help kill people, By denying and covering up atrocities they give political cover for more killing.

    Francesca

    5 April 2022 at 12:33 pm

    The woman who appeared on our screens being helped from the bombed maternity hospital speaks out

    https://thegrayzone.com/2022/04/03/testimony-mariupol-hospital-ukrainian-deceptions-media-malpractice/

    Democracy Now! Democracy Now! The War on Peace report

    @ 1:50 minutes

    ….. 'Twenty Days in Mariupol' A new documentary about the early days of Russia's invasion of Ukraine that has just premiered at the Sundance Film Festival….

    ….Reporters from the Associated Press risked their lives to stay in Mariupol and document Russia's attack even after International journalists left. (They were Ukrainian journalists)…..

    @ 13:00 minutes

    ….as you talk about this bombing of this maternity hospital, can you also talk about what we struggle with every day in our Newsroom….

    @ 14:36 minutes

    ….Russians were claiming that all of these women were actresses, that this was all not true, that it was staged. That was painful too….

  2. tWiggle 2
    11 February 2023 at 7:25 am

    Reposting this post from newsense that I read in the middle of the night on 10/02, because I agree it's a great article, with excellent comments underneath from the hoipolloi.

    "Geez- I agree with Josie Pagani 100%. One of us must be a stopped clock!

    But it’s no secret our country has run on a lot of people being paid less than minimum wage. If your wage is crap and just covering rent, you can/could get a good cheap meal at xyz restaurant or cheap veges at that small supermarket. And like bus drivers forced into crap wages by the mechanism of the contracting system, here often exploitation of immigrants or international students who were in employment situations not covered by NZ law was the case. This is a low wage economy.

    It means a reset on the value of some luxury meals and the places you went to to stretch your grocery bill, but asked no questions need questions asked. If everyone is getting a living wage, then it has to be everyone. And that means accepting some re-evaluation of the cost of some things.

    This mindset goes back to the 90s and will be hard to change, but adjusting to new realities is going to be a popular thing for people to do in the near future, and this surely won’t be the worst of them.

    But yeh simply what Pagani is saying is that class war has been raised so successfully on the lower classes that it’s science that the weakest must accept a decreasing share to combat inflation and economic growth not making them better off. That’s the result of the economic orthodoxy of both main parties which has changed little in 30 years. If Labour can sell the majority of people being better off through a slight reverse of the huge wealth transfer of the property market and elsewhere, good on them. I did think core values were a property owning democracy, but perhaps that rabbit is further off."

    • Jenny are we there yet 2.1
      11 February 2023 at 8:20 am

      Good on Josie Pagani for exposing the hypocrisy of those who cry foul at rises in the minimum wage, while maintaining their silence over rising CEO salaries or corporate profits.

      Jose Pagani writes;
      "I haven't found a single news release from business representatives denouncing the increase, saying it wil cause inflation and have to be passed on to customers (although I bet it was). Not a single person claimed that this would lead to increased unemployment for CEOs."

      But is this measure to address poverty all it is cracked up to be?

      Susan St John gives a sobering factual account totaling the actual value of this wage rise to the lowly paid.

      ….Lets take a typical family with a couple of kids and one and half full-time earners. At 60 hours a week, they have an extra $90 gross a week. This is an annual increased income of $4,680.

      They are both on a tax rate of 17.5%, and so pay $819 income tax. But that is not all. As a consequence of that extra gross income they also lose 27% or $1264 of their Working for Families. Because of this extra income they may also have to repay an extra $562 in Student loans and may receive $1170 less Accommodation Supplement. With ACC and Kiwisaver deductions they are left with around $655 or an increase in net weekly income of just $13 dollars. That won’t dent their cost of living problems or cover their chidlren’s ‘bread and milk’.

      In effect the extra income they can expect from 1 April could be taxed as much as 86%.

      In the meantime, prices continue to rise. If the main earner tries to get ahead by doing extra hours of work they would cross into the 30% tax bracket and give them zero for their extra income.

      https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/02/10/what-comes-next-labour-time-for-transformational-change-please-lets-just-do-it-this-time/

  3. Blade 3
    11 February 2023 at 8:08 am

    Here's something new regarding Three Waters. Who pays should one of the the new water services entities default on their debt? Well, according to the Water Services Legislation Bill, regional ratepayers will pay!? Mikey explains:

    ZB Talk. On Demand. Auckland. Friday 10/2/23. 8.45am.@3.47.

    What would happen should such a situation arise right now, say for Wellington? I can't see Wellington ratepayers being in a position to service additional debt. Would central government step in to help out?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/131170810/it-is-depressing-another-eyepopping-rates-rise-on-cards-for-wellington

    [What’s up with the date/time stamp, is it meant to be a link? Provide the full and correct link.

    What does “Mikey” explain? Explain it to us, in your own words, so that we can discuss this with you here on TS, not with “Mikey”.

    Where in the Bill does it say that debt will default to Councils and thus to ratepayers in case of a debt default by the new water service entities? What is central Government proposing?

    Wellington ratepayers are already faced with a debt, as per your linked article:

    … Wellington has had decades of under-investment in key infrastructure like three waters …

    Come back when you have the answers, with correct links – Incognito]

    • Incognito 3.1
      11 February 2023 at 12:50 pm

      Mod note

    • weka 3.2
      11 February 2023 at 5:14 pm

      You still have to link. eg

      Fri 1/2/23 8.45am

      https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-demand/week-on-demand/

      That way people can go and listen for themselves. Without that, your comment is worse than useless, it's hearsay that people will react to without context or understanding.

      This has been explained to you a lot. If you can't figure out how to link, ask for help and prioritise this. There's only so much more time the mods are going to allow for chasing up things like this during election year.

    • Incognito 3.3
      11 February 2023 at 6:40 pm

      As weka said, you have to provide a link still to your talk back web page.

      You also have to point to the Clause in the Bill and link to it. The Bill is at the Select Committee stage and open for consultation but submissions close tomorrow. Either way, nothing is set in stone yet, least of all because of the Government’s Policy refocus. What are you trying to spin here, Mikey’s talking points for Luxon?

      Ratepayers already pay for water infrastructure through rates. What makes Wellington special that you think it is a relevant example? Why do you think the water entities might default? Do credit rating agencies support your worst-case scenario or are you simply fear mongering?

      You are wasting time of Mods!

  4. roblogic 4
    11 February 2023 at 8:09 am

    Soooo anyway… this is why we don't just uncritically accept one reporter's story

    https://twitter.com/HNTweets/status/1624113481996697611?s=20

    • Adrian Thornton 4.1
      11 February 2023 at 8:45 am

      You mean this Oliver Alexander??….I hope not, if it is, maybe try getting a bit more serious in future and vetting your sources a little more closely.

      "Oliver Alexander, a Danish businessman working in a beachfront apartment in southern Portugal, is watching war play out more than 2,000 miles away in something like real time.

      With Twitter on his computer and Telegram on his phone, a flood of videos allow him to identify Russian tanks rolling over Ukrainian bridges and Russian helicopter gunships blasting away at a Ukrainian airport"

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/24/ukraine-russia-war-twitter-social-media/

      • roblogic 4.1.1
        11 February 2023 at 8:59 am

        Alexander makes valid points:

        1) it was supposedly a super secret operation that Congress shouldn't be informed about, but a multiple branches of the military – and foreign countries! – were involved

        2) they laid the mines during… a very public military exercise. why not just use a fishing vessel or something? crappy way to run a "secret" op.

        3) One of the pipelines is still operational. Weird, eh?

    • Sanctuary 4.2
      11 February 2023 at 11:23 am

      …this is why we don't just uncritically accept one reporter's story…"

      Unless, of course, you are Martyn Bradbury, or most of the Russian tankies on here. The bottom line is Hersh's source is a single unnamed person who posits a ludicrously complex plot to which they are improbably aware of all it’s components.

      We need to address a wider issue here though. Most on the left are principled and consistent in condemning all imperialist wars of aggression and of upholding the right of a sovereign nation to defend itself when attacked. That includes the need to confront fascism everywhere, and not shirk from the force of arms to do so if that is the last resort you are forced to.

      But there is a considerable faction of the wider left – one often considerably superannuated like Pilger, Chomsky and Hersh – that will denounce western wars of imperialism but make excuses for Russia's one in the Ukraine. A lot of these people are inheritors of the tradition of left wing thought that happily swallowed the Soviet line and opposed our involvement in WW2 until the Nazi invasion of the USSR, at which point they duitfully fell into line and supported the war effort 100%. And of course, some are merely (very) old people who made their name or formed their world view in the era of Vietnam and the 1960s counter-culture and who now are in (often quite advanced) old age and are well into intellectual decline.

      But many of this group are also seduced by what Marxist commentator Richard Seymour has described as the "romanticism of dissidence" which allows for conspiracism, moral indolence, the dubious glamour of "alt" thinking and a wider cultural pull towards reactionary thinking in the guise of a defense of an amorphous definition of "freedoms." You see this sort of "glamour of dissidence" a lot in Bradbury, or in Chris Trotter’s conspiracy-drenched fixation with race issues, or the way the Putin fanbois fixate on dubious claims to supposedly substantiate their alt thinking.

      • Incognito 4.2.1
        11 February 2023 at 8:13 pm

        That is beautiful. Your comments lately have been razor sharp and spot on (aka nailed it). Keep it up!

        • mikesh 4.2.1.1
          12 February 2023 at 9:23 am

          "Conspiracy theory" is often a useful term for cancelling legitimate views of persons with whom one happens to to disagree. It’s not a term that I myself ever use.

    • Jenny are we there yet 4.3
      12 February 2023 at 6:17 pm

      It's hard to see how Seymour Hersh can preserve his reputation after this.

      Spray and walk away

      Khan Sheikhoun, or How Seymour Hersh "Learned Just to Write What I Know, And Move On"

      July 28, 2017

      ……Hersh offered no defence of his work, stating that he had “learned just to write what I know, and move on”

      https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/07/28/khan-sheikhoun-seymour-hersh-learned-just-write-know-move/

      ….It is often stated that people who lie have a tendency to add too much superfluous detail to their accounts. This attempt to “cover all bases” is in many cases what trips these people up. Extra details add extra points of reference that can be crosschecked and examined.

      https://oalexanderdk.substack.com/p/blowing-holes-in-seymour-hershs-pipe

  5. PsyclingLeft.Always 5
    11 February 2023 at 8:13 am

    One two-bedroom place she looked into had an advertised price of about $950 per week, but the property manager later said they’d been offered $1100 and wondered if she could beat it.

    ‘‘It was like a bidding war … there’s just absolute greed and it needs regulation,’’ the woman says.

    Working in mental health care, she’s concerned about the huge flow-on effects this level of rental-hunting can have not just on individuals, but the community at large.

    ‘‘Greed and selfishness doesn’t just affect one person … we do well as a community when each of us are doing well,’’ she says.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/despair-queenstown-rental-rip-offs

    When I was working in Queenstown 25 years ago..I still remember some graffiti on a wall….."Queenstown : greed capital of NZ !"

    Very apt. And what….has changed? If anything..its even worse. Land lords.

    Probably the same jerks complaining about the minimum wage rise : (

    Will there soon be people getting charged to live in tents..or cardboard "accommodation" ?

    • Graeme 5.1
      11 February 2023 at 11:06 am

      It's not so much greed that drives the Queenstown market but the greatest fool. And everyone else pays, or reaps, the consequences.

      Landlords here tend to be price takers, rather than price setters, it's generally the tenant side that runs around setting the price, and the landlords just go with the tide, up or down.

      It's been even more marked in the commercial / retail space with rents up 25 – 30% on 2019 levels, and the leap happened several months before tourist flows even started to recover. Hotel occupancies are still down 20% on 2019, but CBD rentals are up 25% based on new leases in the last 6 months.

      And yeah, it's been a feature of the place for as long as it's been a place.

      • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.1.1
        12 February 2023 at 10:23 am

        Hi Graeme. I get most of your msg. But this?

        It's not so much greed that drives the Queenstown market but the greatest fool.

        And the example I gave was below. I dont think she is a fool…

        Working in mental health care, she’s concerned about the huge flow-on effects this level of rental-hunting can have not just on individuals, but the community at large.

        https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/queenstown/despair-queenstown-rental-rip-offs

        IMO the "greatest fool" could be applicable..to some. However IMO there are a LOT of absolutely desperate working..(and not) people who have to just pay. Some getting an accommodation supplement (aka land lords benefit, which we help to subsidise) too.

        And..not likely to change.

  6. Francesca 6
    11 February 2023 at 8:35 am

    The trouble is, how will we ever know?

    I have a bit of a problem with the Hersh story too.I have no doubt he's cultivated strong relationships with insiders over the years, but these persons familiar with the matter or an official speaking with anonymity can't be given too much weight, no matter which side of the divide is reporting.Then again , along with a few inaccuracies (Stoltenberg being a CIA plant from the age of 15) his general gist is probably correct.

    I think there was UK/US involvement .Radislow Sikorski's (later deleted)"thank you USA! signals he believes it also .

    Nuland's gloating in Congress "very gratified " that NS2 "is a hunk of metal at the bottom of the sea"shows she doesn't think Russia had anything to gain from it

    https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/polish-eu-lawmaker-deletes-thank-you-usa-over-nord-stream-tw

    https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/watch-top-us-official-hails-nord-stream-2-sabotage-senate-testimony

    But the nuts and bolts of what and how it happened may never be known, bar a whistleblower who will be promptly rounded on and denounced as a liar or fantasist , as were the OPCW whistleblowers

    I quite like Craig Murray's take

    He's absolutely against the invasion , and just as vehement against NATO.

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/02/sy-hersh-and-the-way-we-live-now/

    • Adrian Thornton 6.1
      11 February 2023 at 9:02 am

      Good link..thanks.

      "It is a clear indicator of the disappearance of freedom from our so-called western democracies, that Sy Hersh, arguably the greatest living journalist, cannot get this monumental revelation on the front of the Washington Post or New York Times, but has to self-publish on the net."

      That serious people don't see a problem with this is the problem…I managed to get into an email exchange with someone at RNZ once, my question to them was…why won't Kim Hill have on anyone with a counter narrative to the Russiagate conspiracy?…Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald, Aaron Mate' would have all made great interviews…they had no answer.

      So one can only conclude that the job of RNZ is to maintained at all times, the state narrative (whatever that may be)..look at their almost total silence on Assange, total silence on Biden's murky past in Ukraine, their lack of any context whatsoever on the Ukraine/Russia war etc etc.

    • mikesh 6.2
      11 February 2023 at 9:26 am

      A quote from the link:

      I have a different view from perhaps all of the other speakers, on the legitimacy of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, which I oppose.

      But I also oppose NATO expansion which is an underlying cause of the war, and indeed oppose the existence of NATO itself.

      NATO is a war machine which sucks resources from working people to benefit the military industrial complex, and unleashes devastating destruction on developing states which do not make their natural resources available to western billionaire elites.

      It is also a fundamental node of the propaganda apparatus which manipulates and controls our society, particularly as counter narrative and dissident thought is now rigorously and systematically excluded.

      Where the defense of one’s country is at stake, legitimacy is probably going to take a back seat.

    • aj 6.3
      11 February 2023 at 8:15 pm

      Craig Murray has hit the nail on the head with that article on all levels.

      I have no doubt if the My Lai story broke in 2023, the government would deny it, Bellingcat would run interference on it, many commenters here would decry it, social media would de-amplify and disappear it, and Hersh would be totally crushed.

      But what most worries me about the entire story is the unanimous complicity of the mainstream media in ignoring the completely obvious.

      The media line, parroted here relentlessly by the BBC and corporate media, was that the Russians had probably themselves blown up the pipeline on which they had expended such great resources and three decades of intense diplomatic activity, and which was to be the key to Russia’s single most valuable source of income for the next 40 years.

      This was always quite literally incredible. You would have to be deranged to believe it.

      It actually taught me not just that we truly are in the realm of totalitarianism and the Big Lie, but I learnt something very important about how the Big Lie works.

      The secret is not that people genuinely believe an outrageous claim. The secret is that people do genuinely believe that they are in a battle of good against evil, and it is necessary to accept the narrative being promoted, in the interests of fighting evil.

  7. Adrian Thornton 7
    11 February 2023 at 8:35 am

    So finally some parts of serious Western MSM are calling bullshit on what was the greatest political/media conspiracy of modern times..of course I am talking about Russiagate, the totally fabricated Democrat/Clinton/CIA fueled media led fantasy of collusion between D.Trump and Putin.

    The press versus the president, part one
    https://www.cjr.org/special_report/trumped-up-press-versus-president-part-1.php

    However the damage has been done..public trust in media has rightly sunk through the floof to historic lows…you all must remember even our own braindead media like RNZ would report of Trump/Russia almost every fucking day!!

    RNZ’s chief US political correspondent at the beginning of all this (I forget his name) was caught up the Wikileaks scandal, as it turned out he was in direct contact with the Hillary campaign during the election cycle asking if his stories meet with their approval…I lodged a official complaint with the RNZ for breaching standards at the time, bizarrely my complaint wasn’t held up…however I did notice that the correspondent was dropped a few months later.

    So where did this relentless conspiracy leave us?…well I would say well primed for a war against Russia for sure…and of course Hillary Clinton the Democratic Party and their complicit media walk away paying no price, everyone keeps their jobs (with promotions), it looks like the Clinton's took a page out of Karl Roves political play book "Accuse your opponent of what they are going to accuse you of." and did it spectacularly well, so I guess by their metric…job well done.

    [reddit embed deleted as it was way too long]

    As Incognito said last night "Useful Idiots"…plenty of them have been exposed on this forum over this saga that is for fucking sure!!

    • Adrian Thornton 7.1
      11 February 2023 at 8:50 am

      Sorry I didn't mean to have all Karl Roves political play books actually all come up on TS then…I just wanted a link….if a mod wants to fix that, go ahead, thanks.

    • roblogic 7.2
      11 February 2023 at 9:11 am

      And the rebuttal. Russophile Trump cultists are not remotely credible.

      Columbia Journalism Review Spiked Different Russiagate Story (nymag.com)

      • Francesca 7.2.1
        11 February 2023 at 10:05 am

        We could rebuttal back and forward to the end of time .

        I worked for a retired thoracic surgeon (A woman , pretty remarkable for her time), who's retort to an argument was often "Well you be comforted by your illusions and I'll be comforted by mine "

        .And thats what I think we find here .Entrenched positions , each incredulous that the other can't see what's blindingly obvious.

        Bravo Adrian , for still fighting the good fight, this is probably not the forum for it

        I do myself find it pretty astonishing that the sabotage of NS2 , lets face it , most probably done by those who profited most, has been so blithely skimmed over by some .A kind of normalisation of environmental disaster and economic attack " Oh well , not a huge thing in the scheme of things.The US just doing what the US does .Ho hum " type thing

        Now Germany turns to coal and environmentally ruinous fracked gas from the US with many more carbon miles and a large dollar increase., that reduces their economic viability.

        • Sanctuary 7.2.1.2
          11 February 2023 at 11:50 am

          "…We could rebuttal back and forward to the end of time…"

          Or we could simply observe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, of whch in Hersh's case I see none.

          • mikesh 7.2.1.2.1
            12 February 2023 at 9:52 am

            Evidence is necessary in courts of law, but the rules which guide judiciaries don't necessarily apply where politics and war are concerned. In those sorts of arenas it is probably best to simply accept the obvious, especially when one knows that evidence can never be available; unless of course one is wedded to a contrary agenda.

        • SPC 7.2.1.3
          11 February 2023 at 1:22 pm

          The shock at the destruction of Nordstrom (if they attack Ukraine it will go) after the deliberate attempt to take out the civilian power supply in Ukraine – which is a war crime – is no where to be found.

          Except among those who

          either blame those of Ukraine for the destruction of their cities because they would not stop resisting armed invasion, or blame those who support a nations right to defend itself.

          • mikesh 7.2.1.3.1
            12 February 2023 at 10:15 am

            Or blame those who meddle in the affairs of other countries, not for the benefit of any of those other countries, but for their own economic benefit. It would be speculative, I know, to think that he US may have prodded Ukraine into a series of actions which they knew would antagonise Russia, just so that they might eventually have a pretext for for destroying Nordstream 2. But who knows.

      • Sanctuary 7.2.2
        11 February 2023 at 11:57 am

        Interesting piece. As an aside, the enormous loss of moral authority as a consequence of the illegal Iraq invasion (justified with fabricated evidence) and the resulting enormous crimes against humanity for which the guilty will never be held to account resonate today through the conspiracy laden thinking of the alt-left and it's pro-Russian world view.

        • Adrian Thornton 7.2.2.1
          11 February 2023 at 12:28 pm

          Being aware of and fully understanding the (recent) historical geo-political background and context to what has resulted in an avoidable and pointless bloodbath..often referred to as the Russia/Ukraine war, and pointing out those plain facts, is not in any way promoting nor is it endorsing a "pro-Russian world view" Sanctuary..it is what smart, intelligent people like you should be doing..but for whatever reason, don't.

          But this what every single fucking one of you pro war Liberals do every time someone points out anything that goes against the state narrative…’Putin Puppet’..Pro- Russian’ etc etc etc…just like you same people did during the now completely debunked Trump/Putin Russiagate conspiracy…don’t you see it is exactly the same news sources that fed you those lies that are the same news outlets now baying for war war war…holy shit man have you no independent critical thinking capacity at all in that top few inches of your skull?

        • roblogic 7.2.2.2
          11 February 2023 at 2:49 pm

          Yes there are good reasons for people to be alienated and critical of Western hegemony. But some people take that another step, or several steps, and wind up supporting war criminals like ISIS and Putin

        • SPC 7.2.2.3
          11 February 2023 at 3:02 pm

          It's origin is much earlier than the regime change in Iraq. It's part of appeasement to prevent confrontation/war which has been around since WW1/war to end war/war for democracy in place of autocracy (and then came fascism in Germany and communism in Russia, so why bother).

  8. Ed1 8
    11 February 2023 at 9:08 am

    Co-Governance. A lot is being said about co-governance, in the context of water services, and proposed arrangements to meet Treaty entitlements. Comparisons are made with a settlement under Key/Finlayson where National first used the term co-governance, but I suspect there is a better example of co-governance, National party style – the Electricity market. There we went from 100% governance by government, to 49% governance of generation through shareholders in companies that have 51% ownership, but which by law require the Boards of those companies to fairly represent minority shareholders. We know that early investors included some very wealthy people who did very well out of the floats; some will of course have sold, but the Government has no control over who is effectively "co-governing" our important electricity market. Overall, each company will resist lower returning development which may reduce profitability in the short term, but they know that the industry as a whole must be able to meet demand – hence the retention of coal fired generation for so long . . . It is of course a competitive market – they compete for who can be most expensive at any one time – a lot of money was put into giving consumers the pretence of being able to identify the cheapest supplier, but they have made charges so complex; now including "loyalty bonuses" that it is getting very hard to tell who is cheapest – and no guarantee that whichever company is chosen will not rise up through the ranks fairly quickly . . .

    Is that a legitimate possibility for National "Co-governance" for water?

    • roblogic 8.1
      11 February 2023 at 9:19 am

      The 3 Waters entities will not have a profit motive, they won't be SOE's but rather public utilities. So we avoid a debacle like Bradford's idiotic electricity "market"

      And anyway, Hipkins may have an announcement soon regarding the water reforms.

      • pat 8.1.1
        11 February 2023 at 9:30 am

        "The 3 Waters entities will not have a profit motive, they won't be SOE's but rather public utilities. So we avoid a debacle like Bradford's idiotic electricity "market""

        Not sure where you get that idea from…the (limited) detail as to the workings of the proposed entities indicates they are to be self funding and responsible for (the increased) investment which will demand a level of profit to service all that demands.

        Sooner or later the public will understand that the solutions promised by the reforms have exactly the same issues that have created the problems we currently face.

        • roblogic 8.1.1.1
          11 February 2023 at 2:36 pm

          Totally wrong and uninformed blather. Have a look at some of the case studies in this Deloitte paper.

          Watercare is a decent model of the sort of amalgamation that 3 Waters is aiming for. Four publicly owned WSE's under strict regulation, with a massive government investment in the future, could not be further from "more of the same"

          • pat 8.1.1.1.1
            11 February 2023 at 3:55 pm

            "Auckland councillor and planning committee chair Chris Darby said the price increases would be "hard to bear" for the public, particularly for lower-income families and those suffering from the economic impacts of Covid-19.

            Watercare had been too focused on keeping the price of water low, but in doing so had underinvested and consequently costs had risen, Darby said.

            The proposal follows a mere 2.5 per cent price rise this year, and a previous decade of meagre price increases.

            Since Watercare formed in 2011/2012 the price per 1000 litres of water has increased just $0.29, from $1.30 to $1.59.

            The ability to keep water prices low had been praised by many politicians – particularly those in favour of small government, and the independent review noted Watercare had delivered savings to customers of $100m per year compared to legacy council forecasts.

            But the proposed price increases would see a huge reversal in that trend, with the cost per 1000 litres increasing to $1.706 next year and more than doubling over the next decade to $3.37.

            "But we have to recognise this is the product of probably not just a decade of Watercare, but even before, years of underinvestment, and it has caught up on us," Darby said."

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/environment/auckland-household-watercare-water-bills-could-double-in-less-than-a-decade/RBESHGA6E3LNG7SFPBZI2HBBY4/

            Sooner or later the public will understand that the solutions promised by the reforms have exactly the same issues that have created the problems we currently face…..as the Deloitte paper is at pains to condition.

            • roblogic 8.1.1.1.1.1
              11 February 2023 at 5:06 pm

              Thanks for copy-pasting that political broadcast from the National Party Herald ™.
              Back in the real world, 3W will be one of the biggest infrastructure investments in NZ’s history and pretending it’s “more of the same” is just nonsense

              • pat …
                11 February 2023 at 5:41 pm

                You do understand the meaning and origin of investment?….your comment suggests not.

                Go and read your linked Deloitte study (commissioned by the Cabinet promoting the policy) and you may begin to understand how and why we are where we are and what 'we' will need to accept to improve the situation….and governance is way down the list of causes or solutions.

                The proposed entities can be relied on to do only one thing with any certainty and that is to remove political (democratic) accountability for the upcoming cost increases….correction, two things….and sinecures.

              • Belladonna …
                11 February 2023 at 6:30 pm

                You do realize that Chris Darby, heavily quoted in the article is a centre left-ish independent on Council.

                Certainly he's been counted as part of the centre-left-wing grouping for quite some time.

                https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/politics/auckland-council-elections-left-leaning-candidates-julie-fairey-and-kerrin-leoni-flip-two-seats/

                "The results are a boost for the centre-left, which now has nine seats on the council – Fairey, Leoni, Shane Henderson, Alf Filipaina, Fuli Lotu, Angela Dalton, Josephine Bartley, Richard Hills and Chris Darby."

                • roblogic …
                  11 February 2023 at 11:16 pm

                  The herald has misused the Darby quote to build a stupid and misleading narrative. The fact is Watercare is the best water utility in the country, but still people moan about it.

    • Mike the Lefty 8.2
      11 February 2023 at 9:38 am

      What I would like to hear is a journalist asking National the blunt questions: What is it that frightens you about Maori having a say in Three Waters? Are you saying that Maori will charge non-Maori every time they turn on the tap or flush the toilet?

      The "everyone should be equal" mantra is just a cover-up for National's implied racism on this issue which is a blatant populist vote gathering exercise for the next election.

      • Molly 8.2.1
        11 February 2023 at 11:30 am

        I think it becomes clearer if you more accurately say:

        "What is it that frightens you about a self-selected group of Maori individuals having a say in Three Waters? Are you saying that those particular Maori under the authority of the organisation will charge non-Maori everyone else every time they turn on the tap or flush the toilet?"

        I think the second sentence is an attempt to trivialise concerns, but you get the gist.

        I find the labelling of certain ideas and initiatives as Maori and non-Maori, obviously racist. It is more accurate to assign the ideas etc to those individuals and groups that promulgate them.

        For instance, no-one says: Pakeha push for charter schools, they specify that it is the Act Party. Otherwise it is so vague as to be meaningless.

        Maori have the same diversity across the population of experience and opinion.

        Why is that consistently ignored by the repetitive use of Maori and non-Maori in contexts such as these?

      • Maurice 8.2.2
        11 February 2023 at 11:51 am

        Maori will NOT charge non-Maori every time they turn on the tap or flush the toilet. That will probably be left to local Councils who will be contracted to forward Koha to the Water Entities. Why else have the many water meters been installed nation wide?

        https://www.watercare.co.nz/Water-and-wastewater/Water-meters

        We start charging from the time we install the meter. This includes the monthly fixed charge as well as any consumption.

        https://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/water-supply/3-waters-projects/smart-meters

        All the meters will be installed by the end of 2023. The project cost is $7.8m and funding has come from the 3 Waters renewal budget.

        https://www.tauranga.govt.nz/council/water-services/water-supply/water-meter-replacement-programme

        If your meter has been replaced, you will receive an invoice showing the “Reason for Reading” as “METER REPLACE”. The invoice will show the final reading of the replaced meter, as well as the first reading of the new meter. If you have a direct debit in place, normal direct debit arrangements will apply to this invoice.

        • Incognito 8.2.2.1
          11 February 2023 at 8:28 pm

          Water meters are not part of a dark plot or conspiracy. They can help customers save water and detect leaks. Water and especially drinking water is a precious resource although you wouldn’t think so with Gabrielle bearing down on us.

          • Maurice 8.2.2.1.1
            11 February 2023 at 11:35 pm

            Meters are also essential for an individual water use charging system and are being universally installed using "3 Waters renewal budget" being provided by central government. The mechanism for individual water use charges is certainly being put in place. Will they be removed after leaks detected are remedied?

            • Shanreagh 8.2.2.1.1.1
              12 February 2023 at 11:18 am

              Water meters are a curse for low income families/families who have high water needs if there is no allowance for normal use or a fair graduated cost structure.

              We have water meters in the Kapiti Coast District Council rohe and every single drop of water coming is paid for. This means for people with large families, people with disabilities that require laundry use or water for personal use line up and pay for water at the same rate as the idiot with sprinklers vainly trying to grow 'real' grass on their beach section.

              In the meantime the KCDC rates are up there with the cost of rates in a local authority where water is covered in the general rates.

              KCDC has been held out as some sort of model. IT IS NOT.

              A person I met on Friday said that when this water charging regime was forecast he 'up sticks' and moved from the KCDC rohe. He called it a rort.

              That these water charges rates will apply equally does not mean they are fair.

              With no charging regime that 'rewards 'in some way those who work hard in their households to lessen use and those who have no ability to avoid high costs any Three Waters entity should be reuired to offer either a free limit or some sort of meaningful graduated scale.

              And for those who believe 'oh people can apply somewhere for an help'…….

              This is not the answer. People should not have to put their living circumstances on the line endlessly to various agencies to get fair arrangements. Also even though offering an ability to apply 'somewhere else' for an allowance seems good at first glance perhaps, there will always be those whose living arrangements, energy, familiarity with 'how to' will mean they don't apply. So they are intentionally possibly thrown into poverty.

              Water entities should not set up unfair charging regimes that have to have the rough and unfair edges rubbed off them by other agencies offering financial help to those affected. .

      • Alan 8.2.3
        11 February 2023 at 11:52 am

        Its the nature of the say that is the problem.

        Elected versus appointed.

        Accountable versus non accountable

        Removable by vote, not removable by vote

        Simple really

        • Molly 8.2.3.1
          11 February 2023 at 4:25 pm

          Agree, Alan.

          The simple facts are often obscured by practiced sophistry.

        • hetzer 8.2.3.2
          11 February 2023 at 5:23 pm

          Exactly Alan

        • Incognito 8.2.3.3
          11 February 2023 at 6:50 pm

          Do you mean I sign the petition to get rid of Wayne Brown and he will be removed and gone by lunch time? That simple?

          Essentially, you are arguing that only elected representatives can and should represent the people and that the people cannot and should not appoint representatives and/or represent themselves, is that it? If yes, that is one rigid view of democratic participation and a very narrow-minded view of accountability. Really simple.

    • Graeme 8.3
      11 February 2023 at 11:14 am

      The electricity generation / retail companies are totally governed by the principles of the Commerce Act, so must act 100% in the interests of the shareholders. So maximise shareholder value and return. Absolutely no responsibility to maintain supply or capacity. The Electricity Commission has some power over supply and capacity but there's not much grunt there.

      The interesting thing is that co-governance is a National policy. We've had it here from the Ngai Tahu settlement and the sky hasn't fallen, and there's not anywhere like the amount of human shit going into the water.

  9. Visubversa 9
    11 February 2023 at 10:48 am

    It is a cult.

    "Take the mind-body split of Cartesian dualism, add queer theory, and announce your pronouns.

    The result, these new gnostics tell us, is literal transmutation of the flesh through magical utterance. “I feel like a woman, therefore I am one.” “Some penises are female, some lesbians have penises.” “I am my true self now.” The phrase “gender euphoria” replaces dysphoria, for they are experiencing hormonal rapture, a transcendence of mere flesh-matter by the divine gender-soul.

    A salvific belief in hidden gender-beings — gender gnosis — has taken over the brain of liberal Christianity like a misfolded protein. Contrary to its own self-image as a rational force, transgender “identity” is an inherently esoteric concept that easily adheres to existing belief systems because it indulges a specific kind of magical thinking."

    https://www.thedistancemag.com/p/gender-identity-is-a-new-gnostic?utm_source=substack&utm_campaign=post_embed&utm_medium=email

    • Molly 9.1
      11 February 2023 at 11:11 am

      Interesting read, thanks, with a few good links.

      Analysing the adoption of gender ideology within the Christian community was partcularly worthwhile:

      …Blank slates. Microidentities. Neogenders. Cartesian dualism of the gendered soulbeing. All brought to you by the incredible power of ‘the new printing press’ to bring people together, sure, but not always for good reasons, or with good ideas. All the estimable aspects of religion — forgiveness, mercy, conscience, empathy — are absent, or else weaponized. Our new social justice priesthood demands sacrifices, obedience, silence of all doubt, or else.

      Hard atheists and hard believers are the two people least likely to fall for woo. Dear believer, take it from an adamantite atheist. Heretics are coming to your church or synagogue or mosque or temple, nonbinary and transgender and maverickgender and boggogender and all, freak flags flying. They mean to stay and colonize your house of worship with bad ideas and sterilized kids. They are coming. They are already there.

      If they have their way, some day soon you will hold pronoun ceremonies in the middle of worship for a child going on puberty blockers. You will be told to pray for another Dylan Mulvaney going through his facial feminization surgery, because that is “necessary and life-affirming.” Girls will share bible camp cabins with boys overnight because what are you, a transphobic bigot? Take heed and start talking to your congregation now, dear believer, before it is too late, and you find yourself surrounded by people whispering:

      Just say the words. You don’t have to mean them.

      Just say that trans women are women and nonbinary identities are valid.

      Just say you believe, like we do. Say it with us.

      Perform the rituals.

      Otherwise, we will have to shun you.

      • roblogic 9.1.1
        11 February 2023 at 2:01 pm

        Understanding the simplest principles of Christianity 101, or secular humanism and the difference between science and ideological BS, is too hard for 80% of the population.

        Most people don't read, don't do their homework, spout whatever shit they just heard on TV or social media.

        The idiocracy will kill us all

        • Molly 9.1.1.1
          11 February 2023 at 2:11 pm

          Christians are a diverse bunch.

          Seeing the adoption of gender ideology by some orthodox churches has been fascinating. I appreciated this excerpt:

          “There is no Biblical, linguistic or historical reason to believe the claims made by those who teach an apostate gender ideology masked as Christian Theology,” writes Alaric Naudé, professor of linguistics. Examining evidence for claims by queer theologians that the bible contains a third sex “eunuch identity,” Naudé finds them entirely baseless.

          People getting things wrong about the bible has never stopped them from erecting a new church on that basis, though. In fact, the opposite is true: every Christian denomination exists because Christians lacked the studied knowledge needed to know the difference between truth and falsity. Interpretations differed and people fought about them because they did not have hard, objective evidence for truth.

          Not implying anything other than it makes sense of the claim of the large number of religions claimed beforehand:

          Under normal circumstances, the genius of the American system is that it has 300,000 religions, so that no single one of them can dominate the others.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 9.2
      11 February 2023 at 1:55 pm

      [Apologies if these views cause any distress.]

      The cult of 'normal' is very strong (ask anyone with a permanent disability), but we have seen that various negative stereotypes associated with some behaviours and characteristics deemed 'abnormal' can be eroded, and, over time, societies as a whole can become, if not more accepting then at least more tolerant of these 'abnormalities.'

      I can only imagine what it's like to have a gender identity that doesn't match one's sex; what their future might hold – not a straightforward row to hoe, imho, and it's easy to see how it could give rise to gender dysphoria. Some, perhaps even most trans people might be 're-educated' to see the error of their poor gender identity 'choices', but eradication is likely an impossibly tough nut to crack.

      For people who, like myself, feel ill at ease with (the very idea of) trans people, education is key. The more I read, the more I am coming to realise that for many (perhaps most) trans people, being trans is not a choice, rather it is a manifestation of (normal) human diversity.

      In the longer term it may become easier for those in the minority trans community to more fully adopt gender identities that match their true sense of self, and to change identities as needed. A few people will abuse such freedoms/rights (and so legal, law enforcement and other safeguards are required), but hopefully less visceral and more considered and accepting (or at least tolerant) attitudes towards (normal) trans people will voluntarily become the norm.

      Why Sex Is Mostly Binary but Gender Is a Spectrum
      [15 December 2016]
      The hierarchical organization of this genetic cascade illustrates a crucial principle about the link between genes and environments in general. The perennial debate rages on: nature or nurture, genes or environment? The battle has gone on for so long, and with such animosity, that both sides have capitulated. Identity, we are now told, is determined by nature and nurture, genes and environment, intrinsic and extrinsic inputs. But this too is nonsense—an armistice between fools. If genes that govern gender identity are hierarchically organized—starting with SRY on top and then fanning out into thousands of rivulets of information below—then whether nature predominates or nurture is not absolute, but depends quite acutely on the level of organization one chooses to examine.

      At the top of the cascade, nature works forcefully and unilaterally. Up top, gender is quite simple—just one master gene flicking on and off. If we learned to toggle that switch—by genetic means or with a drug—we could control the production of men or women, and they would emerge with male versus female identity (and even large parts of anatomy) quite intact. At the bottom of the network, in contrast, a purely genetic view fails to perform; it does not provide a particularly sophisticated understanding of gender or its identity. Here, in the estuarine plains of crisscrossing information, history, society, and culture collide and intersect with genetics, like tides. Some waves cancel each other, while others reinforce each other. No force is particularly strong—but their combined effect produces the unique and rippled landscape that we call an individual’s identity.

      There are basically two sex 'boxes', but you can't box gender in.

      Largest study to date confirms overlap between autism and gender diversity [14 September 2020]
      It also indicates a need for clinicians and educators to talk with autistic people about gender identity, Dewinter says, and to be aware of potential mental health impacts that can result from ‘minority stress’ — or the difficulties associated with being part of a marginalized group. Being both autistic and gender diverse can intensify such stress.

      “Clinicians and practitioners in both fields — autism and gender identity — need to be aware of this association, and to factor it into how best to support the person’s mental health,” Baron-Cohen says.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7415151/

      Sex and gender in neurodevelopmental conditions
      [6 February 2023; abstract only]

      • Molly 9.2.1
        11 February 2023 at 2:03 pm

        Many who see the harm of gender ideology are members of the diverse groups you refer to.

        Acceptance of diversity should not require a capitulation to the idea that biological sex can be changed, or that acceptance requires a role in the supporting cast members of a solo act.

        • SPC 9.2.1.1
          11 February 2023 at 2:56 pm

          A simple question, would you support a ban on the presence of Georgina Beyer from all women's spaces?

          • Belladonna 9.2.1.1.1
            11 February 2023 at 3:09 pm

            Would you support a ban on the presence of Isla Bryson from all women's spaces?

            • weka 9.2.1.1.1.1
              11 February 2023 at 3:32 pm

              exactly this.

              • SPC …
                11 February 2023 at 4:05 pm

                You know I already have. By opposing the right of people who have committed violence against women to self ID.

                • weka …
                  11 February 2023 at 4:10 pm

                  Are you ok with the males offenders who haven't been convicted or identified yet being admitted to all women's spaces?

                  • SPC …
                    11 February 2023 at 4:20 pm

                    How does one identify an offender who has yet to be convicted?

                    Do you mean by male, transgender women?

                    • weka …
                      11 February 2023 at 4:27 pm

                      How does one identify an offender who has yet to be convicted?

                      You can't. That's the point. Female spaces exist in part because it's not possible to tell which men will be harmful. This is true of TW as well, and even more so now with self ID which means that any male can say they are a woman at any time.

                      Not only can we not tell consistently which males are dangerous, we can't tell which males saying they are women are TW or lying (thus Bryson and the cluster fuck in the Scottish political scene). There's no way around that. We either have females spaces, or women are sacrificed.

                      Do you mean by male, transgender women?

                      No, I mean men, TW, and men pretending to be TW. TW, men and men pretending to be TW are biologically male. This matters because some people (looking at Sturgeon) say that the argument I am making is that TW are predatory. That’s sophistry. The argument is that TW as a class have the same risk to women as other males.

            • tWiggle 9.2.1.1.1.2
              11 February 2023 at 6:27 pm

              https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-63823420

              The latest update on Isla Bryson and Scottish prison policy as applied to transgender people, and to transgender people who have carried out sexual violence.

              • Belladonna …
                11 February 2023 at 6:39 pm

                Do I infer that you therefore think that TW should be able to access women-only spaces unless they've been convicted of a sexual crime against women?

                How about being accused of a crime? Given that it can take years before a court case goes ahead (if it ever actually does).

                As Weka points out below, the statistical risk-factors for TW are the same as for men in assaults against women. And self-ID with no requirement for any actual transition, opens up a huge risk to women from sexual predators. The argument that this wouldn't happen, has been thoroughly demolished by the numerous instances where it *has* happened.

                And, regardless of whether the risk-factor is 'real' for any particular TW, many women perceive (for very good, historical and personal reasons) that there is a risk to them from physical males in intimate spaces. Which is why women-only spaces (from bathrooms to prisons) exist.

                If there is also a risk to TW, then activists need to concentrate on giving them their own spaces, rather than taking over the existing women's only ones.

          • weka 9.2.1.1.2
            11 February 2023 at 3:31 pm

            it's the wrong question. The question is whether women should be allowed to have female-only spaces. They should. Once that is re-established, then we can talk about how to organise society so that both women and trans women get their needs met.

            • SPC 9.2.1.1.2.1
              11 February 2023 at 4:09 pm

              That last part only has meaning, if all transgender women fail to qualify for female only spaces.

              • weka …
                11 February 2023 at 4:13 pm

                nope. Molly just described it well below. We don't have to police individuals in women's spaces, and transexuals who are trying to look conventionally female have been using some spaces as they need to (eg toilets).

                It's got nothing to do with qualification. TW are not females. Society is bad at making society an ok place for many TW, that's the conversation that's needed rather than telling women they no longer exist as a class and no longer have the right to their own politics.

              • Molly …
                12 February 2023 at 1:25 pm

                The previous accommodation given to transsexuals (who in this 2019 paper accounted for only 5 – 13 % of men with a transgender identity), has of course been affected by the removal of GRS as a criteria for reissuing official documents under the sex category to which you do not belong.

                This legal fiction, has real world ramifications that have been ignored.

          • Molly 9.2.1.1.3
            11 February 2023 at 3:53 pm

            Men with surgical reassignment – like Georgina Beyer – have for years been accommodated in women's spaces – despite the obvious breaching of single-sex spaces – for decades. Those who did not abuse that accommodation are unfortunately adversely affected by current gender ideology. (In fact, a common derogatory term given by gender ideology advocates for transsexuals is truscum.) There are women that would have self-excluded when this occurred either for religious reasons, or for personal reasons that have nothing to do with Georgina Beyer but everything to do with the presence of a man in a women's space.

            The use of the word "ban" is emotive manipulation.

            The more accurate question is do you support the maintenance of single-sex spaces and provisions? And my answer is where it matters – yes. (ie. a provision that only men can be trained in the Defence Force for sky-diving was overturned many years ago. That was a provision not based on statistical evidence, privacy or dignity).

            Georgina Beyer – in addition to many other men, and some very complacent women – ridicules women in the following clip for wanting to maintain single-sex spaces, even while knowing that the gender reassignment criteria has been expanded to encompass all manner of men – who for whatever reason – want others to offer validation for them as women, which includes entry to women's single-sex provisions or advocacy.

            https://youtu.be/kQ37Nn5q8ec

            I consider the previous unspoken – and not universal accommodation – of transsexual men in women's spaces to be a invitation that can now be withdrawn for several reasons – including the lack of diagnosis needed, the much larger number of men who want access via this route, the disrespect and paraphilias shown by men in their own postings online when women's spaces are used, and the complete and unthinking breaching of boundaries without regard to privacy and safety, let along dignity.

            So, no – I don't think that Georgina Beyer should be banned because single-sex spaces that are significant are not monitored for specific individuals. (I think Georgina Beyer has demonstrated a lack of respect (above) for the category they want others to regard them as, but banning individuals is an unnecessary step when boundaries are clear and respected.)

            Single-sex spaces are neither femininity nor masculinity testing stations.

            They will however demonstrate the cognitive capacity, and/or decision making level of those that knowingly break those single-sex boundaries by prioritising personal feelings.

            What priorities do you think Georgina Beyer makes in that situation?

            • SPC 9.2.1.1.3.1
              11 February 2023 at 4:55 pm

              Georgina Beyer – in addition to many other men

              Thanks for clarifying.

              • Red Blooded One …
                11 February 2023 at 6:34 pm

                👍Thank you SPC for trying. Yes, I'm a man, but for people to call Georgina Beyer a man is exactly why she and those like her need protection.

                • weka …
                  11 February 2023 at 8:18 pm

                  Fwiw I wouldn't call Beyer a man because I think it's useful to differentiate between men and TW. But they are biologically male not female. And if women where having to fight so hard to retain the meaning of female, there'd be more consideration being given to TW. There's a backlash building and the more people's genuine concerns about gender ideology are sidelined the worst that will be. We are seeing this play out in real time in the UK.

                • Molly …
                  11 February 2023 at 8:39 pm

                  I have the similar disdain for those who insist on calling some men women

                  I can explain why. I do, and why this matters.

                  Can you explain how some men ARE women?

              • Molly …
                11 February 2023 at 8:35 pm

                A surgically altered man, is still a man.

                It is a courtesy and a token of acceptance to refer to them as women, but one that now carries a hefty price tag for women, so I've drawn a clear line in my use of the word women.

                You can continue with your squiggly definition but you should still be able to offer analysis alongside your performance of sufferance.

                Is it forthcoming?

                • SPC …
                  11 February 2023 at 9:11 pm

                  You can continue with your squiggly definition but you should still be able to offer analysis alongside your performance of sufferance.

                  What definition have I offered? And what performance of sufferance – you are the one claiming that transsexuals have been accepted (as temporary guests/tenants in womens spaces) on sufferance and no longer.

                  • Molly …
                    12 February 2023 at 12:24 pm

                    You had an issue with:

                    Georgina Beyer – in addition to many other men

                    Therefore you must have an alternate definitiou for either men/women or both.

                    What are they? I'm assuming they're squiggly but will stand corrected if you provide definitions that includes everyone that you want to include and excludes everyone you want to exclude.

                    Have at it.

                    (Also, just would like to point out that after taking time to answer your question honestly, you did not return the courtesy, so here it is again:

                    Single-sex spaces are neither femininity nor masculinity testing stations.

                    They will however demonstrate the cognitive capacity, and/or decision making level of those that knowingly break those single-sex boundaries by prioritising personal feelings.

                    What priorities do you think Georgina Beyer makes in that situation?)

                    • SPC …
                      12 February 2023 at 5:43 pm

                      How did I have an issue with “Georgina Beyer – in addition to many other men”. I asked you a question and thanked you for your answer.

                    • SPC …
                      12 February 2023 at 6:27 pm

                      Any answer other than, only those born female are women or anyone who claims they are by self ID is squiggly. Not everyone wants to play that our side or their side game.

                      I raised GB as an example because she was a transvestite who went with men. She then used hormones and identified as female all the time and then became transsexual and took advantage of the opportunity to legally identify as a woman. She was never a threat to women and still is not in women's spaces. You now disapprove of her because of her opinions (and suggest she is no longer welcome as a guest in women's spaces).

                      Back in the day women's organisations raised gender ideology, those of their female gender having equal social and economic place in society to men. There was the argument that by freeing people from expected/required conformity to gender roles people could be more fully human (civilisation could be advanced).

                      They took up common cause with same sex preference equality . This reminds me of one of the Pankhurst's, not the mothers favourite, a Tory who later preached adventism to Americans, but the one who chose solidarity with the working class.

                      Then came the gender identity movement and women's organisations were sympathetic. We might agree that where they supported self ID they were wrong. I have no idea why they did, maybe you can explain how that happened? The process whereby a person has to use hormones, live as a women, go through a psychiatric evaluation, medical and psychologist oversight during transition before being able to have legal status as a woman appeared to provide the safeguards required to prevent sociopaths/psychopaths/misogynists from acquiring it and becoming a threat to women.

                      Where extensive polling is done on this (the UK) this appears to be the consensus. Not either of the extremes. That said there is also a consensus to ensure fair competition in sport (so excluding transgender persons in some areas). The same license for organisations to determine their own rules would allow lesbian groups and or refuges to do the same. Prisons, whatever the society law will always have their own safety rules, as per inmates seen as a danger to others (or at risk).

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 7:13 pm

                      @SPC

                      "How did I have an issue with “Georgina Beyer – in addition to many other men”. I asked you a question and thanked you for your answer."

                      I'll take that at face value. Let's move on.

                      "I raised GB as an example because she was a transvestite who went with men. She then used hormones and identified as female all the time and then became transsexual and took advantage of the opportunity to legally identify as a woman. She was never a threat to women and still is not in women's spaces. You now disapprove of her because of her opinions (and suggest she is no longer welcome as a guest in women's spaces)."

                      Georgina Beyer is a transsexual homosexual male. I admire much of Georgina's politics, but disagree with the ridiculing of women concerned about the impact of self-id on female spaces.

                      That is not the same as disapproving of Georgina Beyer the person. It is a disagreement with one perspective.

                      "(and suggest she is no longer welcome as a guest in women's spaces)."

                      No, I said there was previously an unspoken accommodation for transsexual males because of the very small number of transsexuals using female spaces. I also pointed out that this would have meant that some women self-excluded, when/if they noticed a male in the single-sex space, so some carried the cost of the accommodation.

                      However, due to the dedicated attempt redefinition of the word women, and the expansion of the expected accommodation to over twenty times the number of men – who for whatever reason – want others to consider them women includes a vast number men who do not fit the demographic of transsexuals such as Georgina Beyer.

                      But you surely know this.

                      The increased number makes the investment in third spaces more likely. But what would work – and preserve women's single sex spaces – is for men to support and safeguard those men in their own facilities.

                      "She was never a threat to women and still is not in women's spaces. "

                      Immaterial to the issue. My sixteen year old son has never been a threat to women, and is still not welcome in women's spaces. The use of a popular transsexual to disregard concerns is an obvious subterfuge. Not all men who identify as women are Georgina Beyer.

                      I'm not linking but if you want to look at specific individuals, check out the popular (120k followers on Twitter) of handle @SukiTrans to see some postings of using women's spaces with complete disrespect for women or expression of women's behaviour.

                      Safeguarding assesses risks via categories, not via individuals.

                      "Then came the gender identity movement and women's organisations were sympathetic."

                      Not all. And often without consideration for impacts. Lesbians have been aware of and raised concerns for over two decades.

                      "Any answer other than, only those born female are women or anyone who claims they are by self ID is squiggly. Not everyone wants to play that our side or their side game."

                      Let's be honest here, SPC. You can't do it.

                      Women are a sex category, that has specific political, medical and advocacy needs that have nothing to do with gender identity.

                      The concerted attempt to make the word meaningless, has an impact on women's ability to organise, advocate and name themselves in that work.

                      Don't assume because I push back against the appropriation of the word women, that I push the people who want to identify into it. The answer is No to the use of the word, not the people.

                    • SPC …
                      12 February 2023 at 8:13 pm

                      Let's be honest here, SPC. You can't do it.

                      Do what? Play the game, as part of this or that side?

                      Women are a sex category, that has specific political, medical and advocacy needs that have nothing to do with gender identity.

                      Sure, but how does one then cater for transgender people who identify as totally apart from their birth sex?

                      Homosexual men do not identify as women and lesbian women do not identify as men.

                      If one calls Georgina Beyer "a homosexual male", what does one call Caitlin Jenner (Bruce Jenner was married to a woman and now identifies as transgender without bottom half surgery, and dating men)? It appears to be heterosexual, but based on their own sense of identity.

                      What does one call the former actress Ellen Page, now Elliot Page, first feminist, then same sex attracted and later married to a female partner, then transgender man before later ultimately ending the marriage (who wanted to be a boy from age 9)?

                      https://www.harpersbazaar.com/celebrity/latest/a40165765/elliot-page-recalls-dark-juno-years-says-he-finally-feels-at-home-after-transition/

                      Consider Camille Paglia, once the only out lesbian at her graduate school, now identifying as a transgender man (and saying her career was one in which she was mentored by men).

                      There is a biological reality and there is what is called “the natural order” – sex for procreation of the species (a form of bio-determinism). Sure people have in the past and again today (despite the period of religious proscription) accepted homosexuality as part of the human spectrum, but also some societies have expected "two spirit" identity – based on their cultures observance of humanity.

                      I am sure there is someone, perhaps a bisexual women, trying to have it all via relationship with a transgender woman (without bottom half surgery), a transgender man, a non binary born male or non binary born female. Or all of them, in addition to her usual partners.

                      Online searches can be fun – "Juno actress" does not list Ellen Page, but a lot of others in the film.

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 8:41 pm

                      @SPC

                      Sure, but how does one then cater for transgender people who identify as totally apart from their birth sex?

                      A distinctive term/s for themselves works in their favour for political advocacy, statistics, medical focus etc. Appropropriation of women (men) is unnecessary and disrespectful.

                      "Homosexual men do not identify as women and lesbian women do not identify as men."

                      Well some do. Apparently the disrespectful attempt at appropriation of definitions doesn't stop at sex, sexual orientation definitions have been dismantled as well. Gender ideology is parasitic in that way – sucking all meaning out of words till there's nothing left but a lifeless husk. I consider this to be quite homophobic.

                      "If one calls Georgina Beyer "a homosexual male", what does one call Caitlin Jenner (Bruce Jenner was married to a woman and now identifies as transgender without bottom half surgery, and dating men)? It appears to be heterosexual, but based on their own sense of identity."

                      Apparently a bisexual male/man. This isn't hard.

                      What does one call the former actress Ellen Page, now Elliot Page, first feminist, then same sex attracted and later married to a female partner, then transgender man before later ultimately ending the marriage (who wanted to be a boy from age 9)?

                      Good God. A woman who has been in two same-sex relationships.

                      Gender identity may reference sex, but is an entirely different classification system to either sex or sexual orientation. Your (apparent) confusion comes from conflating the categories.

                      I am sure there is someone, perhaps a bisexual women, trying to have it all via relationship with a transgender woman (without bottom half surgery), a transgender man, a non binary born male or non binary born female. Or all of them, in addition to her usual partners.

                      Who cares? This is nothing do do with our women's rights discussion.

                      "Online searches can be fun – "Juno actress" does not list Ellen Page, but a lot of others in the film."

                      Online searches can also be studiously avoided so that ignorance can be feigned. I see you working hard in this respect.

                    • SPC …
                      12 February 2023 at 9:54 pm

                      "Homosexual men do not identify as women and lesbian women do not identify as men."

                      Well some do. Apparently the disrespectful attempt at appropriation of definitions doesn't stop at sex, sexual orientation definitions have been dismantled as well. Gender ideology is parasitic in that way – sucking all meaning out of words till there's nothing left but a lifeless husk. I consider this to be quite homophobic.

                      I'd leave to those who are homosexual men to determine if they see Beyer as homosexual or Jenner as bisexual (given neither has a penis, as Jenner does not mention it much I missed it, but did ultimately have bottom half surgery and says sex with women is not happening and is open to dating a male, has not done yet so).

                      Gender identity may reference sex, but is an entirely different classification system to either sex or sexual orientation. Your (apparent) confusion comes from conflating the categories.

                      They put it, as who they are/identify as and present as when they go bed with someone. You identify their sexuality via their birth sex and the birth sex of their partner.

                      "Online searches can be fun – "Juno actress" does not list Ellen Page, but a lot of others in the film."

                      Online searches can also be studiously avoided so that ignorance can be feigned. I see you working hard in this respect.

                      I mentioned it, because it demonstrated the changing of the past to be in accord with the present.

                      There is a biological reality and there is what is called “the natural order” – sex for procreation of the species (a form of bio-determinism). Sure people have in the past and again today (despite the period of religious proscription) accepted homosexuality as part of the human spectrum, but also some societies have expected "two spirit" identity – based on their cultures observance of humanity.

                      Quite apart from the issue of classification of people as male or female from birth, thus to become men and women. There are people who do not want to do so. They are also born human beings.

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 10:35 pm

                      @SPC

                      "I'd leave to those who are homosexual men to determine if they see Beyer as homosexual or Jenner as bisexual (given neither has a penis, as Jenner does not mention it much I missed it, but did ultimately have bottom half surgery and says sex with women is not happening and is open to dating a male, has not done yet so)."

                      Once again your conflation of categories confuses you.

                      (Note: I don't have as much interest in other individuals sex lives as you appear to. This focus on specific individuals personal lives feels voyeuristic to me, and so is not something I willingly do. So, that's it for me in your current Q&A.)

                      To me clear definitions are important for the reasons I've given more than once, but let's try again:

                      Eg. Let's weigh up your proposed advantages for lesbians in terms of organising, political advocacy and specialised support services when the word is redefined to include heterosexual men, or even two gay men who identify as women.

                      (Seems utterly absurd to me that by this definition you could have a lesbian advocacy group with no women at all, but that's your lookout I guess)

                      1. What do you see as the benefits of such a redefinition of the word lesbian?

                      2. Can you see any negative impacts?

                      There is a biological reality and there is what is called “the natural order” – sex for procreation of the species (a form of bio-determinism).

                      OK. Agree with the first five words. The rest is pure speculative musings, including this:

                      "Quite apart from the issue of classification of people as male or female from birth, thus to become men and women. There are people who do not want to do so. They are also born human beings."

                      All human beings ARE male or female, including those who don't want to be. Their desire doesn't change their sex.

                      Stop conflating sex with gender identity.

                      They do not belong to the same classification systems, so cannot be interchanged.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 9.2.1.2
          11 February 2023 at 3:54 pm

          Many who see the harm of gender ideology are members of the diverse groups you refer to.

          I will read about "gender ideology" with a view to understanding "the harm" (first do no harm) and to guard against false narratives.

          Imho, biological sex is real, important and immutable, and there are people (trans people) whose gender (identity) is incongruent with their (biological) sex. I would prefer trans people not be portrayed and/or treated as intrinsically abnormal/sick – they are not.

          Acceptance of diversity should not require a capitulation to the idea that biological sex can be changed, or that acceptance requires a role in the supporting cast members of a solo act.

          Men, Women, and Ghosts in Science [17 January 2006]

          Males tend to think narrowly and obsess, while females think broadly, taking into account balancing arguments. Classifying individuals in general terms, he concludes that among men, about 60% have a male brain, 20% have a balanced brain, and 20% have a female brain. Women show the inverse figures, with some 60% having a female brain.
          …
          There is good psychological evidence that aggression and lack of empathy are on average male characteristics, and we may agree with Baron-Cohen that for both sexes, “nastiness…. gets you higher socially, and gets you more control or power.”

          • Molly 9.2.1.2.1
            11 February 2023 at 4:11 pm

            Drowsy M Kram.

            " I would prefer trans people not be portrayed and/or treated as intrinsically abnormal or sick – they are not."

            Trans encompasses so many different demographics – including those who meet the old DSM-5 criteria for gender dysphoria, which includes extreme distress over their sex. It also includes – somehow – stage characters, such as drag queens – absolutely no distress, and cross-dressers and (mostly) men with demonstrable paraphilias, along with non-conforming children.

            So, I understand your concern. Which I share when it comes to the cohort of those who are experiencing distress.

            There are numerous logical breaks that occur.

            For example: If no diagnosis is required, nor distress, then why is medical treatment given? Especially when state health resources are low.

            What other non-diagnosed personal demand for medication and surgery is provided by our Ministry of Health? (ie. Is a young woman able to access breast augmentation surgery on the basis of gender affirming care, or is that access sex based and only offered to young men?)

            What IS your definition of trans?- ie. who does it include?

            Have you considered that different demographics within the broader definition may have such entirely different motivations and experiences to the point where blanket statements are so vague as to be meaningless.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 9.2.1.2.1.1
              11 February 2023 at 4:26 pm

              What IS your definition of trans?- ie. who does it include?

              At this stage of my understanding, I would define a trans person as a person whose gender (identity) is incongruent with their (biological) sex. The degree of incongruency, and the extent to which it manifests, are individual variables.

              At least that's a definition I can grasp – one that is meaningful to me, given my limited experience and a (very) small number of relevant acquaintances.

              • weka …
                11 February 2023 at 4:32 pm

                have you seen the trans umbrella?

                Fwiw, I also believe that there is a class of people who are gender non conforming and where that is not a pathology. But if one hates one's body/sex, I'm inclined to think there are issues.

                • SPC …
                  11 February 2023 at 4:52 pm

                  Would you include any use of chemicals to influence gender presentation as hate of birth sex? Or just surgical transition?

                  • Molly …
                    11 February 2023 at 5:02 pm

                    Your question is vague as well as leading.

                    Chemicals could include botox, but that's mostly cosmetic and nothing to do with hatred of birth sex.

                    And there are many transgender individuals that don't hate their birth sex – ie. comfortable with an unchanged body – so the hatred can't be assumed.

                  • weka …
                    11 February 2023 at 5:04 pm

                    as Molly and I are pointing to, there are a range of drivers and understandings. Looks to me like there are AGP males who are seeking hormones not so much from GD but from the desire to be a woman and/or exhibitionist. This is quite different from a teen girl wanting cross sex hormones because she hates being female because of society's treatment of women and girls, and who wants to erase her sex.

                    I don't consider using hormones as hatred of sex, but hatred of sex can be a driver of that.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  11 February 2023 at 4:54 pm

                  Thanks weka. So many 'boxes' under the umbrella – some will get wet!

                  Self-hate leading to self-harm is awful, often necessitating cycles of intervention by a skilled team with good communication skills, if you're fortunate enough to access one.

                  I'm uneasy about 'overlapping' trans identity with mental illness, just as I am about characterising all depression as mental illness. Maybe that's got to do with a personal concern (likely ‘fear of stigma’-based) about shifting the 'bar' of mental illness so low that none of us can limbo under it.

                  • weka …
                    11 February 2023 at 5:06 pm

                    I'm with you on that, I've been influenced in my thinking by the anti-psychiatry movement. We pathologise differing states unnecessarily.

                    However, if someone hates their body/sex and can't cope with that to the point they are self harming, I think society should be talking about the most appropriate responses. It's very clear to me that there are young people having surgery without being given other options, and the degree to which society thinks hormones and surgery aren't that big a deal is just as concerning as the degree to which society thinks people are mental.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      11 February 2023 at 5:14 pm

                      In an early discussion with Sabine, I mentioned that "I'm opposed to irreversible gender-reassignment therapies for sexually immature people, unless consensus medical opinion indicates a high risk of severe/irreversible self-harm."

                      And, to clarify, the effects of some hormone treatments are irreversible – this applies particularly to young people.

                      (Evolving) Consensus medical opinion doesn't alway get it right, either in diagnosis or treatment, but it's still the best bet, imho.

                    • weka []
                      11 February 2023 at 5:17 pm

                      what do you mean by consensus medical opinion there? The patient’s medical team? Doctors generally?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      11 February 2023 at 6:31 pm

                      Thinking clinical professionals (GPs, nurses, hospital & other health specialists etc.) and biomed researchers (experts) generally/globally.

                      Was assuming, but not sure, so looked it up.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_consensus

                    • weka []
                      11 February 2023 at 8:32 pm

                      (Evolving) Consensus medical opinion doesn’t alway get it right, either in diagnosis or treatment, but it’s still the best bet, imho.

                      depends on whether we can consider affirmation only as a genuine consensus (I doubt it). And that leads to teen transitioning and later detransitioning but young people being left with lifelong disability. There’s nothing ethical about this situation. Medical consensus can be wrong.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      11 February 2023 at 11:03 pm

                      Medical consensus can be wrong.

                      We're in agreement about that.

                      (Evolving) Consensus medical opinion doesn't alway get it right…

                      On example (from Australia) springs to mind.

                      https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2005/press-release/

                      Consensus medical opinion (not to mention medical guideline) was updated (corrected) accordingly, and remains subject to further correction.

                      So consensus medical opinion obviously isn’t set in stone – how can it be when ‘medical research’ never sleeps.

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 12:38 pm

                      @Drowsy M Kram

                      Many medical professionals follow authority guidelines, which follow other guidelines in a daisy chain of referrals.

                      Here in NZ the daisy chain leads back to WPATH.

                      A good starting point is to find and assess the evidence they assessed/offered as a sound basis for their recommendations.

                      It does take a while because you may have to revisit previous Standards of care, and look at the history and contributors to the SoC.

                      But what you discover for yourself will mean that exchanges can be focused on the basis of the affirming approach, rather than individual experiences.

                    • weka []
                      12 February 2023 at 1:37 pm

                      I tried at one point to follow the MoH PB links back to find the original research. It was hard going and I gave up in the end.

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 4:00 pm

                      @weka

                      Relevant part of OIA response from Ministry of Health 2022:

                    • weka []
                      12 February 2023 at 8:35 pm

                      yes, it was the Waikato link I followed.

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 8:56 pm

                      @ weka

                      Yes. I had a look lastyear, but found it poor in terms of evidence.

                      Link here for others: https://researchcommons.waikato.ac.nz/handle/10289/13101

                      Using citation tools such as Connected Papers or Litmaps often helps untangle the sources etc

                      Homepage links:

                      https://www.connectedpapers.com/

                      https://www.litmaps.com/

              • Molly …
                11 February 2023 at 4:42 pm

                Fair enough.

                However, the definition has moved on from that understanding.

                So, the advocacy and legislative changes apply to all those included under the new (growing) number of groups under the "transgender" definition, not just those you define, or personally know.

          • tWiggle 9.2.1.2.2
            11 February 2023 at 6:52 pm

            Drowsy M. Kram. A 2019 critique in the latter half of this article of the 'Men, women…' assertion from 2007. It is based on studies from one research group, without replication elsewhere.

            https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/extreme-male-brain-explained/

            • Drowsy M. Kram 9.2.1.2.2.1
              11 February 2023 at 7:18 pm

              Thanks tWiggle – interesting that "There’s still a relative lack of independent replication” relating to the theory. Baron-Cohen probably shouldn't be blamed for that, unless he is somehow preventing that independent replication.

              Also helpful (to me): "Baron-Cohen says the theory only pertains to two categories of cognition: systemizing and the ability to intuit others’ emotions."

              I still like the idea that while men and women are, on average, different, some women (up to 20%?) will nevertheless exhibit (some) cognitive/mental abilities and behavioural patterns (‘good’ or ‘bad’) that are most usually observed in men, and vice versa.

              Diversity!

              • Molly …
                12 February 2023 at 12:45 pm

                Diversity – within females. Diversity – within males.

                Outliers within a category does not mean they belong to a different category.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  12 February 2023 at 2:54 pm

                  (Biological) sex basically comes in two boxes, and gender (identity), like sexual orientation, can't be (tidily) boxed in.

                  Just my current opinion; could change and/or may not be chic in 50 yrs.

                  • Molly …
                    12 February 2023 at 3:50 pm

                    Sexual orientation can be tidily boxed in.

                    (Understanding or accepting your personal orientation can take time, exploration and experience, but sexual orientation can be described with clarity.)

                    So can sex, man, woman, male, female.

                    Gender identity is a changing feast, but all of those boxes you referred to are sheltering under the transgender umbrella. None of them are getting wet. Do you know what's in all of them?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 February 2023 at 4:08 pm

                      Do you know what's in all of them?

                      Weka provided the Transgender Umbrella graphic. I don't know what's in all the boxes, and I'm confident they're under surveillance.

                      None of them are getting wet.

                      On closer inspection, I see that there’s no rain in that graphic. Would you be happier if (some) boxes were to get ‘wet’?

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 5:00 pm

                      Your assumption about some form of surveillance is naiive, and incorrect. Safeguards have been removed.

                      Some of those boxes contain autogynephiles, voyeurs and exhibitionists. Some others being promoted you may consider concerning are minor attracted people. These are being written, articles invited.

                      Any of these, have the same right to self-id as anyone else, and due to legislative changes can apply for and receive official documentation that declares them to be what they are not – the opposite sex.

                      Do you think some clarity should have been provided around whether this legal lie gives the holder access to women's single sex provisions should have occurred before legislative change?

                      Can you see why women are concerned, and how child safeguarding is dismantled without regard?

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 5:18 pm

                      @Drowsy M Kram

                      (Previous reply was intended for you as well)

                      I haven't posted any links to the groups mentioned above because I prefer not to post sexual content on here, and think it can be easily found by those who choose to look to confirm.

                      However, there is also a growing number of men who while claiming womenhood – seem to hate women.

                      So, as not linked to any sexual content, here's an example:

                      https://twitter.com/TheOnlyGuru/status/1624489300233535488?t=Nm4UNB0M1JvmDjbCp8UaJg&s=19

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 February 2023 at 7:12 pm

                      Molly, just noticed your comment to me @5:18 pm – thanks. I don’t have sufficient information to form an opinion on whether the pro-trans movement is causing a significant increase in hatred of women, as opposed to given existing hatred a new outlet.

                      Do you think some clarity should have been provided around whether this legal lie gives the holder access to women's single sex provisions should have occurred before legislative change?

                      I'm not sufficiently familiar with this topic to attempt an answer – I would prefer that the provision of (single-sex) women/female-only spaces continues, as meaningless as that preference may seem.

                      Can you see why women are concerned, and how child safeguarding is dismantled without regard?

                      Not sure about "without regard", nor do I know if the "right to self-id" will make a significant difference to child safety in NZ.

                      I'm certain that some women (and men) are more concerned than others. Imho the jury is still out on whether:
                      (1) the status quo, or
                      (2) provision of the right to self-ID,
                      will be more harmful to children and/or women here, but my opinion doesn't count for much.

                      Maybe Kiwis will find out. Links to (more) opinions follow.

                      Do trans self-ID laws harm women? Argentina could have answers [1 June 2022]

                      Scotland’s gender recognition bill would have harmed women [3 February 2023]
                      Recognition of trans identities should not come at the cost of women’s hard earned sex-based rights and protections.

                      So what is the solution?

                      Back in the 1970s, when I came out as a young lesbian, trans people were my friends and natural allies. That is how it should be. Those of us who live on the margins of society and are discriminated against should have each other’s backs. In this bloody battle, we are all victims.

                      Ultimately, because allowing anyone claiming to be a transwoman access to single-sex spaces is a recipe for disaster, we must help build a third space. Feminists, including myself, have been offering to help transwomen build specific services for those experiencing male violence – such as domestic violence, abuse and sexual assault. After all, women-only services designed to protect women from male violence were built by the early pioneers of the Women’s Liberation Movement (in the UK and US) back in the 1960s and 1970s, with no help or funding from governments. It is perhaps time for trans people to do the same. I would imagine help from state agencies would be forthcoming, and everyone, except for opportunistic sexual predators, would welcome such an initiative.

                      “Protect the women!” Trans-exclusionary feminist issue framing and support for transgender rights [3 November 2022]

                      Groups defending sex-based rights

                      Ireland’s dangerous experiment in self-ID
                      [5 January 2023]
                      Women’s spaces and child safeguarding have been obliterated in the name of trans rights

                      "Obliterated"! – children, flee Ireland NOW, before it's too late.

                      Finland passes sweeping reform of gender recognition law and introduces self-ID for trans people [2 February 2023]
                      The new Finnish law – passed by 113 votes to 69 – removes the requirement for trans people to be sterilised and obtain a psychiatric diagnosis in order for them to get legal gender recognition.

                      Tory peer claims LGBTQ+ Pride crossings will ‘trigger epilepsy’. Experts say that’s nonsense
                      [7 February 2023]

                      Beware the glare of the rainbow wink

                      And please remember that, in my humble current opinion, human biological sex is immutable – that's not a sop, it's a firming belief.

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 9:18 pm

                      @Drowsy M Kram

                      Thanks for your reply.

                      I don’t have sufficient information to form an opinion on whether the pro-trans movement is causing a significant increase in hatred of women, as opposed to given existing hatred a new outlet.

                      I didn't say this. I just said that there is "a growing number of men who while claiming womenhood – seem to hate women."

                      There's a difference, that may be apparent to you now they are side-by-side.

                      Child safeguarding is being broken because of the adoption of Queer Theory not because of transgender people. Apparently, some of the more influential advocates consider it a package deal.

                      If you believe that sex is immutable, then you might understand the harm of some of the broken boundaries resulting from Queer Theory.

                      Eg. having a curriculum that advises very young children that sex is not fixed, science includes "consider variations in puberty, including the role of hormone blockers", and the demand for children to abandon sexed pronouns and single-sex spaces at school and in other recreational endeavours. Girl Guiding is one such organisation that is no longer single-sex in regards to membership, overnight camps, or separation of male leaders from young girl guides.

                      There are many instances of harm being reported by women and girls but ignored by media, so if you are truly interested I will post some of them for you.

                      Otherwise, I'll leave it up to you.

                      (No comment on this fairly mild example of a recognisably misogynistic man, and his entry into women's spaces?).

                      Third spaces are all good as a solution, but there is a vocal group that doesn't want that provision at all.

                      I'd like to think that most men have progressed to the point where they wouldn't really care about men with any gender identity in their single-sex spaces. Of course, that depends on circumstance and situations, but I don't know many men that are that unaccepting of diversity. Do you?

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      12 February 2023 at 10:36 pm

                      Of course, that depends on circumstance and situations, but I don't know many men that are that unaccepting of diversity. Do you?

                      No – the people I'm closest to are women. I suspect you're right.

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 10:40 pm

                      @Drowsy M Kram

                      We are obviously equally fortunate in our circles of acquaintances.

                      wink

          • Visubversa 9.2.1.2.3
            11 February 2023 at 8:32 pm

            People don't have a female brain in a male body any more than they have a female kidney in a man's body. It is all about which collection of sexist stereotypes you identify with.

      • roblogic 9.2.2
        11 February 2023 at 2:07 pm

        I think a lot of these studies have correlation and causation confused. They claim that kids presenting with "gender incongruence" is causing them mental anguish.

        But it's verboten to ask if there’s underlying psychological distress that is manifesting as "trans", because that seems to be the popular thing for adolescents to latch onto.

        Vulnerable children who come from family dysfunction might find it easier to embrace a new identity, rather than admit there are deeper problems below the surface.

        “Mum and Dad are never wrong, so there must be something wrong with me”

        Any competent therapist should figure this stuff out very quickly. But they aren’t doing so.

        • SPC 9.2.2.1
          11 February 2023 at 2:37 pm

          There are similarities between the linking of gender identity issues to trauma induced disassociation/body dysmorphia and historic explanations for "abnormal" homosexuality – early DSM (1952-1974), the first DSM without it (1980) replaced it with gender dsymorphia – go figure.

          Once upon a time – women were expected to conform to their role within the Christian family (physical abuse and rape by the husband as a male entitlement). Rebooted as the Promise Keeper movement – order out of chaos cult (where order is male leadership and chaos is feminism/emancipated voting women and secular society equality).

          People find a sovereign order comforting, it’s very Hobbesian. There is no public deviation allowed, only a private one kept from the public space – like a sexual or gender deviation …. .

          PS most body dysmorphia has nothing to do with trauma or gender, but eating (and exercise) disorders based on fitting in with the right image (as portrayed in media), often manifested when personal identity is being
          developed (puberty/adolescence/teen). Thus fashions of youth – rocker/mod/hippie/punk/goth etc

          • roblogic 9.2.2.1.1
            11 February 2023 at 2:59 pm

            "most body dysmorphia has nothing to do with trauma or gender"

            Reference? These are complex issues, it wouldn't be good clinical practice to rule out such major possible factors:

            Body Dysmorphic Disorder (BDD) | Mental Health America (mhanational.org)

            There is no one cause of body dysmorphic disorder, but research suggests that both environmental and genetic factors have an influence. High rates of abuse and neglect during childhood have been associated with body dysmorphic disorder. Also, there is evidence to suggest that the disorder is more likely to occur in individuals that have parents or siblings with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

            • SPC 9.2.2.1.1.1
              11 February 2023 at 3:06 pm

              Of course it's most – do I really need to cite stuff about eating disorders based on not having the ideal body shape?

              Very few guys slow to develop the V shape consider it a gender issue and very few gals without the idealised feminine form consider it either. They do what they can, or get depressed until they accept their genetic birth lottery outcome.

              And I would hazard a guess, most of those considering the gender issue come from safe middle class family backgrounds (the ones who can afford therapy).

              Consider a story. A mother comes home and finds her daughter’s male friend in her clothes. They said it was something to do with school and gender role play. The female later discovered she was a lesbian (she was working out for herself and him why someone she liked was in the friend zone).

              • roblogic …
                11 February 2023 at 3:23 pm

                It is comforting for some people to pretend that gender dysphoria is a simple matter and easily fixed by a trip to the gender clinic.

                But it's destroying lives.

                And those pretending everything is OK are participating in the dark triad of dysfunction.

                • SPC …
                  11 February 2023 at 3:36 pm

                  Thanks for inferring that applies to me. And I am part of the problem. That only indicates when you get disagreement on this issue, you resort to tribal us (good) and them (bad) diagnosis.

              • Molly …
                11 February 2023 at 3:59 pm

                Can you advise what is the point of this anecdote, because it conflates sexual orientation confusion and pretty typical teenage behaviour as supporting evidence for what, exactly?

                • SPC …
                  11 February 2023 at 4:32 pm

                  It's just drawing the dots as an example – the issue of normal human experience/development when one is not heterosexual cisgender.

                  • Molly …
                    11 February 2023 at 4:44 pm

                    Oh, ok. It's not a particularly persuasive approach.

                  • Visubversa …
                    11 February 2023 at 8:53 pm

                    Your use of the term "cisgender" denotes the acceptance of the basic tenet of gender ideology – that people have some sort of gendered soul which supercedes biological reality, based on some sort of gobbledegook about " assignment at birth". The vast majority of people don't actually believe that – and for good reasons. There is no scientific test for the existence of a gendered soul, any more than there is a test for the existence of an immortal soul. It is a belief system, an ideology. The use of "cis" and "trans" is actually a form of linguistic apartheid, it divides human beings into separate categories with no consultation or agreement, and based on an ideological belief which most of them do not share.

                    • SPC …
                      11 February 2023 at 9:31 pm

                      So the use of the a term in current use denotes that the user believes what … . Really Jenette Strawoman?

                      People have debated issues for thousands of years – on both sides – and it's rare for anyone to state that by using common language either denotes or defines their opinion.

                      I could claim that to do so was a form of cancel culture, but …

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2023 at 1:06 pm

                      @SPC

                      "So the use of the a term in current use denotes that the user believes what … "

                      This "current use" is not universal, and is a linguistic Trojan Horse that makes women (or men) a subset of their own sex. It takes a clear definition and dismantles it into meaninglessness.

                      (Also, is often used in a dismissive way to ignore contributions to discussion.)

                      So, No.

          • roblogic 9.2.2.1.2
            11 February 2023 at 3:14 pm

            I don't get the relevance of your insinuations of some kind of patriarchal conversion therapy handmaid's tale. There are bad actors on the extremes of either position.

            I could spread all kinds of crap about gr**mers and the sickening basis of gender ideology if you like.

            But the main things GC's are concerned about are medical malpractice, women's rights, and the integrity of biology and basic science.

            • SPC 9.2.2.1.2.1
              11 February 2023 at 4:01 pm
              1. The major strand of logic used in the linked article is Hobbesian dismissal of idealism as part of the sovereign rule of society (social contract).

              The patriarchal order was once sovereign and I am unaware of any advocacy by him for equal female participation in the forming of the social contract. Presumably their female idealism not being part of then social contract where they were excluded (such as homosexuals from recognised/accepted public partnerships).

              And yet today, even those of the female birth sex ID, are an inviolate part of the social contract.

              However some still say its not in accord with the natural order, empowered feminist equality – Jordan Peterson perceives that male identity is too fragile to deal with the chaos of female equality and that humans need God values as sovereign of our society order. As the transgender man (and the only out lesbian at her graduate school) Camille Paglia puts it man's greatest invention/creation was God (and she wants a part in the making the next version).

          • weka 9.2.2.1.3
            11 February 2023 at 4:02 pm

            There are similarities between the linking of gender identity issues to trauma induced disassociation/body dysmorphia and historic explanations for "abnormal" homosexuality – early DSM (1952-1974), the first DSM without it (1980) replaced it with gender dsymorphia – go figure.

            You know there are women who have sex with women but don't have sex with men because of sexual trauma, right? This doesn't deny the existence of lesbians, but there's no good reason to minimise the existence of trauma survivors either.

            Psychiatry has all sorts of problems with its world view and starting points, and gets many things wrong. The DSM is a manual for pathologising humans so they can be treated in the medical model. It has some uses, but they are limited.

            • SPC 9.2.2.1.3.1
              11 February 2023 at 4:35 pm

              but there's no good reason to minimise the existence of trauma survivors either

              Thanks. So whether trauma was involved or not (lesbians were sort of marginalised anyhow), that does not denty the existence of lesbians – well na they are fellow humans after all.

              Now about those with gender identity issues … and how they identify … . There is what they would decide and the issue of the social contract as to what society accepts.

              Women now vote, lesbians can marry and …

  10. Bruce 10
    11 February 2023 at 10:58 am

    Interesting connection between John Key, NZ and the so called spy balloon, At 9.20 if you want to bypass the over the top hyperbole.

    https://youtu.be/UZuyC-XFFdw

  11. Incognito 11
    11 February 2023 at 12:07 pm

    He [Wayne Brown] recorded an apology for his communications about the Auckland floods that was then broadcast on Facebook, a video clearly directed by someone with extensive experience of making hostage videos.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/yesterdaze-belittling-experiments-in-leadership

    From one of the most insightful and brilliant political commentators in NZ.

    • Shanreagh 11.1
      11 February 2023 at 12:43 pm

      I am surprised that this excellent article did not come with a reader warning

      'May contain figures of speech including sly allusions'

      much as some commentators on Stuff have to have a reader warning that they are 'satire'.

      smiley

    • Mac1 11.2
      11 February 2023 at 1:02 pm

      Agreed. Brilliant commentary. Another dig was at Luxon's use of 'little' and his oh-too-often required explanation/rewording/repapering of his description of Te Tiriti as a "little experiment" by saying he meant the word "brave". The writer said there was a huge difference, and no-one would go and see a movie titled "Littleheart"!

      Is anybody counting the number and importance of Luxon's further 'walk-backs", a phrase that is too exculpatory in my opinion?

      • Incognito 11.2.1
        11 February 2023 at 1:23 pm

        I can just see Luxon playing with his Experiment Kit that he found under the Christmas tree: The Te Tiriti Play-Kit for Right-Handed Boys – For Age 8+. Seymour’s got one too for Christmas but it was the beta-tested and highly experimental one (protoype) with VR features (with 3D holographics card) that contains many bugs that can harm the user’s senses and cause unexpected catastrophic system crashes. Seymour with his Electrical & Electronics Engineering degree thought he could fix it but van Velden was too late in pulling him away and she found him slumped over on Facebook with his whole body twerking.

        • Mac1 11.2.1.1
          11 February 2023 at 2:37 pm

          'Braveheart' along with my name is what I used when facilitating change workshops. It was used to signify that to make changes in our lives a brave heart was needed.

          Ir seems that all of us have to have a brave heart to encompass the changes that living in this country needs; that and understanding that we are all on journeys.

          I found that out in the pub last night when 'discussing' Three Waters and co-governance.

          I had to acknowledge that my companion who was so angry and frustrated had come from a farming in Southland background, was in his mid-Seventies and had been educated in brutal violence and insensitivity by Christian Brothers in the South Island in the Fifties and in shearing gangs in Australia in the Sixties.

          None of that background gave him many useful insights into 2023 Treaty/Māori/co-governance issues…….

          • Incognito 11.2.1.1.1
            11 February 2023 at 8:39 pm

            Yes, these conversations are difficult for a number of reasons, not the least the many diverse backgrounds and viewpoints that make for very different starting points in and of the conversation if there’s one to be had at all.

    • Ghostwhowalksnz 11.3
      12 February 2023 at 12:46 pm

      Scandal !

      Brown is going to flood community events without 'alerting media'

      Why is it some think the media are the only gatekeepers and those who play the media game like a pro are the real leaders – think smile and wave Key ( and thats was just the tip of his media strategy and games)

      I seems those in the mediaverse are collectively clutching their pearls

  12. Incognito 12
    11 February 2023 at 1:05 pm

    Hairy weather ahead for Luxon, perhaps even a Code Red warning. If I were Luxon I’d call for the State of Emergency now and start sandbagging Seymour and ACT.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131195407/labour-leads-mori-party-the-kingmaker-in-latest-poll

  13. Stephen D 13
    11 February 2023 at 3:26 pm

    If the Tories can contemplate it, why can’t we?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/10/treasury-considering-huge-expansion-free-childcare-england?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    My preference is for all child care centres to be brought under MoE control, just as schools are. Free for all.

  14. Incognito 14
    11 February 2023 at 7:06 pm

    The long-range fall-out of bad weather events could deflate tyres and volunteers may have to pay back Government money. I wonder what Desley Simpson will do about this.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-government/131183188/35m-taxpayers-money-at-risk-if-auckland-council-axes-western-cycle-and-walkway

  15. tWiggle 15
    11 February 2023 at 7:54 pm

    Meanwhile, in the UK [Chortle…]

    "..the Telegraph has published a large poll of 28,000 voters, presumably designed to terrify the living daylights out of the Tories. It finds Labour would win an unthinkable 509 seats, the SNP would be the official opposition with 50, Tories would be third with just 45, and almost every Tory you’ve heard of would be swept away. The Electoral Calculus poll of polls has Labour on 47.5% and the Tories on 26.3%. There’s a way to go yet to an election, but this does suggest that provoking strikes and revoking the right to strike has been a gamechanger with voters."

    Polly Toynbee in The Guardian

  16. joe90 16
    11 February 2023 at 9:25 pm

    Inequality, covid, yellow fever and immunocapitalism.

    That rare observer knows that the precautions evident at Davos should by now be visible in every train station, school, place of worship, hospital, and airport of the world. Yet for the bulk of humanity, there are no precautions in place despite Covid’s impact as “the greatest mass-disabling event in human history.” Vaccine nationalism has excluded more than a quarter of the world’s population from receiving a single Covid vaccine. Amid this global inequality, which most harms traditionally vulnerable and marginalized communities, Covid has taken at least 15 million lives so far, and at least 65 million people are afflicted with Long Covid.

    […]

    “The City of Death” A century earlier in New Orleans, elites used recurrent yellow fever epidemics to consolidate their power and wealth and to justify slavery as essential to developing the region of the just-acquired Louisiana Purchase. In her book, Necropolis: Disease, Power, and Capitalism in the Cotton Kingdom, historian Kathryn Olivarius describes how yellow fever became socio-economically endemic in New Orleans through a phenomenon she calls “immunocapitalism.”

    […]

    “Immunocapitalism,” as Olivarius explains, provided “ideological legitimation for vast inequality” in 19th century New Orleans, which she describes as a stinking hellscape of squalor and suffering. Its population was wracked with recurrent yellow fever epidemics and livestock were butchered in the streets, their entrails left to rot in the sun. White elites used the poorly understood disease, which killed half of its victims, to justify the expendability of poor White laborers’ lives and the enslavement of Black workers about whom they constructed a myth of natural immunity to yellow fever to justify slavery.

    https://caroldumaine.substack.com/p/covid-threatens-democracy-but-almost