Open mike 11/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 11th, 2021 - 245 comments
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245 comments on “Open mike 11/11/2021 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    11 November 2021 at 6:36 am

    "Aotearoa New Zealand's legal aid system is collapsing," Law Society president Tiana Epati said. "Legal aid lawyers are unable to cope with demand, are too poorly paid to deal with the complex cases they have, so they quit the legal aid system." Epati said vulnerable people were missing out on justice because they couldn't get legal aid and couldn't afford lawyers.

    The research comes after the most senior member of the judiciary, Chief Justice Dame Helen Winklemann, last month told RNZ the legal aid system was"broken and may collapse if nothing is done about it".

    Released today, the research, which surveyed 3000 lawyers, was conducted by Colmar Brunton on behalf of the Law Society.

    Hourly rates for legal aid work haven't changed since 2008 and are around half what a Crown Prosecutor or independent counsel receives.

    Well, that's due to them being higher in the pecking order. When a QC gets around a thousand dollars per hour, approx six times the rate for legal aid lawyers, it reminds us how justice retains its ancient structure as a privilege system.

    Nobody expects Labour to reform the system. That would be sacrilege. Consequently the minister in charge presents a just-so story:

    The 2021 review was cancelled by Justice Minister Kris Faafoi as he said it would not add any new information.

    He met with the Law Society last week to discuss the report and had asked officials to look for ways to reduce the legal aid administration.

    "The remuneration for legal aid lawyers was identified as an issue in a review of legal aid settings in 2018, but significant additional funding is required to address this. That work would be subject to budget processes and in the context of other spending demands facing the government in relation to New Zealand's response to the Covid pandemic."

    So there! Messy little detail nicely tidied up… https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/455427/legal-aid-thousands-turned-away-by-lawyers-in-collapsing-system

    • Gezza 1.1
      11 November 2021 at 8:36 am

      My teina (younger sibling of same sex) is a Crown Prosecutor. I think he’s paid pretty well (we never discuss it, of course, he’s a lawyer) although the funding for Crown Lawyers is capped too.

      They weren’t able to get govt funding for a protective perspex screen in Court, after one of his pregnant junior lawyers was hit in the head by a mobile phone thrown at her by a furious female defendant upon conviction. Perhaps Covid has remedied that problem.

      The problem is probably partly that , like some with some other professionals, lawyers in private practice in most areas of specialist expertise are just too well paid.

    • Treetop 1.2
      11 November 2021 at 9:03 am

      I would like to know if stats are kept for the 20,000 people who cannot get legal aid what they require legal aid for.

      Sometimes a person just needs a lawyer to explain something to them so they can do a review. Some cases are complex which generate a lot of paper work. I do not know if lawyers would be interested in the small jobs, I have noticed that tradies do not like the small jobs.

      I do not know if a legal advocate would be the way to go a bit like a benefit rights advocate.

      Civil and criminal cases probably the criminal cases get the legal aid. Some ACC cases have a criminal element to them such as not investigating to the level required (Lake Alice) and an un expected death at a DHB. When it comes to statements to officials from clinicians these can be flawed.

    • Ed1 1.3
      11 November 2021 at 9:53 am

      I do not understand why a Crown Prosecutor is necessarily paid more per hour than a lawyer providing legal aid, and I do not understand why firms are employed to provide prosecution services but individual lawyers for defence legal services. A better structure would be to have two new separate services provided by the Courts department – a Crown Prosecution Service and a Public legal defence service. Both would contract with individual lawyers in special circumstances, and defendants would be free to employ private lawyers should they wish, but it would clarify the difficulties with pay. Equal treatment under the law . . .

      • Treetop 1.3.1
        11 November 2021 at 10:05 am

        Are the roles of a lawyer, a solicitor, a barrister and a QC different when it comes to the district court, the high Court and the supreme court?

        I know that there are prosecutors and defence lawyers, solicitors and barristers as well as QCs. Once a case goes to a court the cost would go up.

      • Chris 1.3.2
        11 November 2021 at 10:18 am

        We have a PDS. If someone's charged with an offence that has a maximum sentence of less than 10 years and applies for legal aid they're assigned a lawyer from the list of legal aid lawyers, including those working for the PDS which provides about a third of legal aid lawyers.

        https://pds.govt.nz/

        • Treetop 1.3.2.1
          11 November 2021 at 10:50 am

          So the PDS would be a bill of rights issue??

        • Ed1 1.3.2.2
          11 November 2021 at 12:07 pm

          It appears that the current pds system largely works through independent contractors who are invited to take each case. There is a "duty Solicitor" system to ensure that there is someone to talk to a defendant – I do not know how that is arranged, it may involve some assistance from law firms giving your lawyers experience. I do not see why more money per hour is spent on prosecutions, where I understand specific firms have had contracts for years – they are able to balance which cases get more senior staff, but it is still on a contract system.

          For the amount of money spent, it may be more efficient and provide a better balanced service if the pds and prosecution teams were formed from a core of employed staff working full time; only calling in other contractors when needs exceed core demand. Such teams could build expertise while still allowing some flexibility for specialisation and career development. It would ensure that there is a reasonable balance between the expertise advising both prosecution and defence. As it is we appear to be heading towards a lot of defendants not getting competent legal advice . . . while we argue about whether pay rates should have increased since 2008.

          • Treetop 1.3.2.2.1
            11 November 2021 at 12:55 pm

            The system is broken for access to legal aid and the cost of legal advice; immediate restructuring is required.

            Were a comparison to be done with doctors, specialists and surgeons would the health system be more cost effective than lawyers, solicitors and barristers when it comes to wages?

          • Chris 1.3.2.2.2
            11 November 2021 at 1:05 pm

            I think the PDS employs its lawyers. There'd be no point contracting independent legal aid lawyers because they just do the work themselves anyway, whether as solicitors employed by a law firm or self-employed barristers. Lawyers put their hat in the ring for the legal aid lottery which includes lawyers employed by PDS.

            • Ed1 1.3.2.2.2.1
              11 November 2021 at 4:12 pm

              I was under the impression that they are paid essentially on a 'piece work' basis, which I regard as not the same as full or part time employment. That will certainly work for some, but if we are running out of people willing to work the pay rate may be wrong – or they are colluding to get the rate up. I suspect there is some need for that sort of employment in small centres, but the same may also be true for prosecution lawyers.

  2. Ad 2
    11 November 2021 at 7:18 am

    So since there will shortly be several thousand wilfully unvaccinated people (coming from all professions high and low), how will the state cope with their continued responsibility to them?

    This is the consequence of the laws and regulations that the government has put in place.

    New Zealand cannot afford a rapid further expansion of its underclass into a well-led and hyper-informed grey economy and grey society. Gangs are already rapidly accelerating under this government, and their periphery will expand massively.

    They are still citizens, they are still New Zealanders.

    And they are going to be massive state liabilities as their needs grow rapidly in health, accommodation, schooling, policing, welfare, access to travel and public spaces, employment.

    Before you build a wall to keep those safe within, check who you're walling out.

    • tc 2.1
      11 November 2021 at 7:41 am

      +100 Also those who have health issues reluctant to take the risks with a vax in education/health etc losing or already lost their job.

      • RosieLee 2.1.1
        11 November 2021 at 8:30 am

        If they have genuine health issues can they not get an exemption?

        • Ad 2.1.1.1
          11 November 2021 at 8:35 am

          Most won't. That's when the "Team of 5 Million" nonsense gets its first test.

        • Ed1 2.1.1.2
          11 November 2021 at 9:36 am

          Yes. The system for granting exemptions has been reviewed and a new official process put in place. The number who will be able to gain such an exemption is likely to be small, but is not zero, and may change as we get new variants of covid or more clinical experience of the effect of vaccines on particular conditions. I presume this is being included in the development of a vaccine passport; it is possible that having an exemption will get some treated with the same attitude as those that have chosen not to be vaccinated; and that would be regretable.

    • Ross 2.2
      11 November 2021 at 7:41 am

      since there will shortly be several thousand wilfully unvaccinated people (coming from all professions high and low), how will the state cope with their continued responsibility to them?

      They have been unvaccinated since day one of the pandemic. One would expect the State to show respect and kindness to anyone taking up the option of being unvaccinated. Of course some of them will be unable to be vaccinated or perhaps will be waiting for an alternative vaccine.

      • Peter 2.2.1
        11 November 2021 at 8:14 am

        No doubt those who have health reasons for not being vaccinated will be making their case to whomever.

        The teachers who lose their jobs because they simply don't like people being made to do things they don't want to do?

        I wonder how they handled working in schools where kids are made to wear uniforms.

        • Ad 2.2.1.1
          11 November 2021 at 8:37 am

          If you get to find them guilty of hypocrisy, what will you further strip them of?

          • Pete 2.2.1.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 10:35 am

            I guess they'll be content with their hypocrisy in their new employment not in schools.

            • Ad 2.2.1.1.1.1
              11 November 2021 at 10:48 am

              There's no doubt that servicing rent and generating food will focus anyone's mind.

              Ought we now ought to go the Singapore route and extend the social contract of basic welfare and public entitlements only to the vaccinated?

              • McFlock …
                11 November 2021 at 4:18 pm

                No. I don't agree with Singapore's policy.

                But if someone chooses to not get vaccinated without an authentic medically-approved contraindication, they don't get to infect as many people as possible. If that means they can't deal with hundreds of people a day, or just the same 30 kids all day, that's their choice.

        • Koff 2.2.1.2
          11 November 2021 at 10:55 am

          Teachers not getting vaccinated to protect themselves, colleagues and kids is pathetic. Teachers, just like all other workers, are forced to obey myriad other 'mandates' in order to keep their jobs, e.g. turn up to work on time, prepare lessons adequately, assess kids, provide extra curriculars, wear appropriate clothes etc. etc. One of the most irritating 'mandates' I ever expereinced was having to wear a tie in a Whangarei High school. Wearing a bloody tie every day was far more annoying than having to present an arm every 6 months for a Covid jab. Repeat ad finitum for thousands of other jobs.

          • Bearded Git 2.2.1.2.1
            11 November 2021 at 1:58 pm

            smileysmileyKoff

          • mauī 2.2.1.2.2
            11 November 2021 at 6:10 pm

            Somehow I doubt teachers took up the profession knowing their continued employment would be based on taking a medical treatment…

            • RedLogix 2.2.1.2.2.1
              11 November 2021 at 6:28 pm

              And I'm impressed at how many on the left – that once upon a time stood to defend working people – are now cheering on and often actively demanding that people should loose those jobs for their convictions.

            • Koff 2.2.1.2.2.2
              11 November 2021 at 8:31 pm

              Agreed, but who would have known in 2019 that a pandemic was about to change everyone's lives and precipitate a lot of hard decisions. As for the vast majority of teachers I've met most have their students' welfare at heart, not their personal idiosyncratic opinions or ideas. Potentially bringing a nasty virus into the classroom, or staffroom doesn't seem to be sensible whatever your convictions.

    • Gezza 2.3
      11 November 2021 at 8:56 am

      “Gangs are already rapidly accelerating under this government, and their periphery will expand massively.”
      ……………………………….

      Why has there been no in-depth investigative tv journalism done into this problem?

      And also into whether the much-fanfared reduction in the prison muster is allied to the reported increase in violent crime that has been reported as now a thing in NZ?

      Wellington Central is reported by police stats as at December 2020 as having suffered a significant rise in violent & anti-social incidents & actual crimes of violence, which is likely to be the product of policies putting more & more people with gang affiliations & problem behaviours into inner city motels & hotels

      It’s rather disconcerting that there seems little in the way of Ministers & party spokespeople coming up with concrete answers to these problems beyond the usual hit ’em hard “lawn order” noises from the loikes of Soimon Bridges.

      Or, maybe, when it comes to gangs – that IS the answer? The only major downside to that is there won’t be a single Māori whanau in the country that hasn’t got whanau members in gangs & even if some of those whanau are lowlife thugs, they’re still whanau & whanaungatanga applies. If the state trashes their mana; they trash the mana of the whanau & hapu too.

    • RedLogix 2.4
      11 November 2021 at 9:04 am

      Gangs are already rapidly accelerating under this government, and their periphery will expand massively.

      Given the NZ gangs might well out-gun our police and military combined – it’s not hard to imagine that ‘periphery’ becoming a lot more visible.

      By contrast in WA the massively popular Labour State govt will be legislating to make gang membership pretty much intolerable.

      Outlaw motorcycle gangs in WA will be banned from wearing their club patches in public and forced to cover gang tattoos under new laws combating outlaw motorcycle gangs (OMCG) in the state.

      Laws unveiled on Wednesday will enable WA Police to disrupt illegal activities and eliminate bikie networks across the state.

      Under the legislation expected to pass Parliament by late next month, WA Police will have the power to arrest anyone displaying bikie logos in public.

      Displaying insignia including patched vests, flags and tattoos will result in a 12 month jail term and fines of up to $12,000 for individuals and $60,000 for corporations.

      Bikies with gang tattoos that cannot be hidden with clothing will either need to be removed or covered up with make-up.

      …

      The laws will also prevent the “unlawful consorting between offenders” and disperse gang members who gather together in public places.

      It applies to 46 organisations specifically named in the legislation, from outlaw motorcycle gangs to smaller street gangs.

      …

      “These people aren’t a social club, they are criminals, the peddle misery, pain and harm on the Western Australian community and we are aiming to disrupt them,” Mr Papalia said.

      “This law will be the first in a series of laws and measures aimed at making it very uncomfortable, impossible we hope to be a bikie in Western Australia.”

      • Puckish Rogue 2.4.1
        11 November 2021 at 9:59 am

        Want my vote Labour? This is how you get my vote.

        • Pete 2.4.1.1
          11 November 2021 at 10:40 am

          Our society is seen as fascist by some because people are forced to wear masks.

          I wonder how those of that view would see the banning of wearing of certain clothes.

          • Ad 2.4.1.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 10:58 am

            Certainly a weird calculation of public health harm when patched gangs who decade upon decade deal meth and intimidation get sustained growth and increasing acceptance by the state, but failing two injections in one month gets you excluded near-fully from society with no end in sight or current limit to it.

            If the state is prepared to force that degree of sanction on the unvaccinated, they should be consistent and apply even greater sanction to gang members.

        • bwaghorn 2.4.1.2
          11 November 2021 at 11:02 am

          Its certainly got the karen I know very excited

        • Gezza 2.4.1.3
          11 November 2021 at 2:33 pm

          Reminds me; I’ve got an unopened letter a few days old from Nicola Willis. Spose I should open it see what she wants me & me neighbours to know… 😐

    • bwaghorn 2.5
      11 November 2021 at 11:00 am

      It's not sitting well with me ,this segregation road we are traveling .

      It's not the kiwi way , keep trying to get them vaccinated, but they need to be able to work , and as for this meme that they should pay their own medical expense, fuck right !!!

      (Not you personally Ad)

    • gsays 2.6
      11 November 2021 at 11:51 am

      With you touching on gangs made me think of the recent protest at Parliament.

      I don't think 4 gangs have ever ridden together before. Add to that the mix of trades, professionals, ethnicities and cultures. To write the crowd off as Trumpist rent a crowd is totally burying your head in the sand.

      • fender 2.6.1
        11 November 2021 at 12:26 pm

        It's been common knowledge for a long time that these meth traders are happy to ride together in order to get rich. Could it be that Brian Tamaki is also involved

      • Ad 2.6.2
        11 November 2021 at 4:01 pm

        Yes agree. I posted on the veracity of this protest yesterday.

    • Cricklewood 2.7
      11 November 2021 at 3:52 pm

      Several is an understatement at 90 percent nationwide thats a few hundred thousand.

  3. Jenny how to get there 3
    11 November 2021 at 7:38 am

    The Minister of Blah, Blah,Blah.

    TVNZ Breakfast this morning

    James Shaw live from Glasgow, asked by John Campbell about climate change getting worse. "There are two ways to answer that", "We have strengthened our targets" "We have increased our ambitions"

    Asked by Campbell if Greta Thunberg is right in saying that this is just Blah, Blah, Blah.

    James Shaw seemed stuck, before replying, "I don't think she is totally wrong".

    Thunberg is either right or wrong.

    Much like the Curates Egg, I might like to ask James Shaw, which part of Greta Thunberg's Blah, Blah, Blah does he consider is wrong.

    • Dennis Frank 3.1
      11 November 2021 at 8:10 am

      "I don't think she is totally wrong"

      laugh Brilliant answer from the archetypal centrist politician! Mind you, he could have done the `glass half empty' framing better by observing that she ain't totally right.

      That's where I differ from James, who is forever trying to signal his managerial consensus style of politics just like Jacinda.

      Where I differ from you, Jenny, is in not defaulting to right/wrong temptation as if the world is really black and white.

      Sure, all we ever get from these international conferences is a fudging of the issues. I'm with you on that. I bet most sideline commentators would agree nowadays. But notice how none of the others onsite here have joined me in diagnosing the process of democracy as root of the problem!

      James keeps using that process to secure consensus, and we get incremental progress as output. Is it sufficient to solve the global problem? Of course not. He's part of the system now, so he's unwilling to admit that. Incrementalists will always hope for the best. Sometimes reality even validates their stance. However the scientist talking head on the tv news last night said the latest research indicates a global warming of 2.4 degrees by the end of this century. That's dire.

      • Sabine 3.1.1
        11 November 2021 at 9:00 am

        That's dire….

        no its deadly.

      • Gezza 3.1.2
        11 November 2021 at 9:01 am

        🤔 Did you say you were once a lecturer, Dennis, out of interest?

        • Dennis Frank 3.1.2.1
          11 November 2021 at 9:25 am

          Nope, you must've been thinking of someone else. Closest I ever got was conducting the official proceedings of a Green Party Annual Conference, in my capacity as Convenor of the Standing Orders Committee and Constitution Working Group. It did involve addressing over a hundred delegates (& organising their decision-making).

          • alwyn 3.1.2.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 10:11 am

            There was I believing what you said Dennis.

            Then I came to this " organising their decision-making". That really is too much. Organising 100 Green Party members is simply impossible to believe.

            • Dennis Frank 3.1.2.1.1.1
              11 November 2021 at 10:26 am

              wink It's certainly true that the legend `getting the Greens to agree on anything is like herding cats' was one of the first things I encountered at my first annual conference in '91. Just the type of challenge I like!

              So it took several years hard word-smithing to reach the smooth consensus-producing output stage that I was referring to…

              • alwyn …
                11 November 2021 at 2:01 pm

                "the smooth consensus-producing output stage". You really managed that?

                Dennis for Speaker of the House of Representatives. You would be a miracle worker.

                • Dennis Frank …
                  11 November 2021 at 2:17 pm

                  smiley Dunno if I'd go that far. Yes, one can learn the relevant techniques, and apply them in other contexts, but only a fool would expect success.

                  Stuff like this is extremely context-dependent. There's an old saying about the right place & the right time, eh? I just happened to be the right person there & then. I was new to the scene, the competing primadonnas had all cancelled each other out into a mutual stalemate, I volunteered to solve the problem.

                  Technique was only part word-smithing. It also involved playing the role Alexander the Great played when confronted by the Gordian Knot: lateral-thinker, decisively so.

        • ianmac 3.1.2.2
          11 November 2021 at 10:23 am

          Dennis did say that his friend, a lecturer (engineering?) was anti-vax in spite of his education.

      • Jenny how to get there 3.1.3
        11 November 2021 at 10:10 am

        "…..none of the others onsite here have joined me in diagnosing the process of democracy as root of the problem!" Dennis Frank

        I would be one of them. Democracy is not the problem.
        Not if you accept that democracy is not limited to voting every three years.
        That is a limited and highly proscribed form of democracy.
        Democracy in its fullest form embraces the right to protest and demonstrate and apply pressure to demand change.

        All politics is pressure. History shows that elected representatives of all parties, no matter what stripe, are not imune to political pressure. This pressure can take several forms and come from different places, from the streets, from the trade unions, from the corporate lobbyists with access cards to the Beehive.

        Currently the overwhelming political pressure coming on our elected leaders, is coming from the powerful, well connected, well resourced BAU lobby.

        I have been saying for a long time now that we live in an age where polticians need to become activists and activists need to become politicians.

        I often think of the Labour MPs who took to the water in small boats to join with protesters against nuclear ships as a model.
        This form of street activism allied with activism in parliament proved to be enormously powerful, swaying two National MPs Mike Minogue and Marylyn Waring to vote for the Labour opposition Private Members Bill to ban nuclear ship visits. If this bill had been voted on, New Zealand would have been nuclear free in 1984. Prime Minister Muldoon, under political pressure from the militarists called a snap election to prevent the vote being taken.
        The calcuation was that pressure could be put on the incoming Labour administration to water down any proposed anti-nuclear legislation. And so it was.
        The plan was to put political pressure on the Lange Government to accept a US warship under the niether confirm nor deny arrangement. The USS Buchanon was dispatched from the US to Auckland, half way here, David Lange accepted a delegation in his Beehive office from the peace movement who told him that if the Buchanon was allowed to dock, the same protests that had brought down the Muldoon administration would be organised against his government. Lange phoned Washington and told them to turn the ship around. The next day David Lange was reported in the listener as saying that his most feared lobby was the anti-nuclear movement.

        Rod Donald was a masterclass example of a skilled proponent of joining parliamentary and street activism. Originally in the Values Party, Donald joined Labour and turned the LECs into organising centres of anti-nuclear protests.

        Using the same model of street activism joined with parlamentary activism, Donald spearheaded the movement to achieve MMP against a reluctant Bolger administration.

        All politics is pressure.

        Is James Shaw the sort of politician who would climb into a small boat to protest nuclear ships, or join a protest march for MMP, to put pressure on parliament to change direction?

        Or more to the point, organise and lead protests to pressure pariament to take climate change seriously?

        If we are to turn around our growing emissions we need more politicians like Rod Donald and less politicians like James Shaw.

        • Ad 3.1.3.1
          11 November 2021 at 10:33 am

          The Greens are steady between 8-9% and no-one including their members is requiring anything more from them.

        • Dennis Frank 3.1.3.2
          11 November 2021 at 10:35 am

          Originally in the Values Party, Donald joined Labour and turned the LECs into organising centres of anti-nuclear protests.

          Interesting, I didn't know that. Anyway, I see no evidence that protestors change govt policy nowadays like they did in bygone days. The duopoly are both addicted to the status quo.

          The real evidence that you're wrong lies in the lack of consensus around the imagined positive alternative to neoliberalism. All the protestors seem capable of is sheeplike evasion of the topic. Sue Bradford's think-tank continues to produce no visible output. Have you even joined it?? If not, you're living proof that I'm right. Admit it!

          • Jenny how to get there 3.1.3.2.1
            11 November 2021 at 11:49 am

            Dennis Frank

            11 November 2021

            …..I see no evidence that protestors change govt policy nowadays like they did in bygone days. The duopoly are both addicted to the status quo….

            You have not been paying attention.

            This is what democracy looks like

            The Prime Minister was on her way to a scheduled appointment with the Indonesian ambassador. She saw a protest by Greenpeace on the steps of parliament, The Prime Minister ordered her driver to pull over, so she could check out what the Greenpeace protest was all about. (The Indonesian ambassador could wait).

            Standing on the steps of parliament Jacinda Ardern, handed a megaphone, told the assembled protesters that in her role as Prime Minister she would see that her government would ban deep sea oil drilling.

            Following this protest and the Prime Minister's statement on the steps of parliament, the Prime Minister followed up on her assurance to the protesters.

            A later photo would catch Shane Jones making the infamous slap to his forehead gesture, as the Prime Minister went before the cameras to officialy announce a ban on deep sea oil drilling to the nation.

            Shane Jones, a known schill for the fossil fuel lobby, was expressing their collective shock and horror that the Prime Minister of New Zealand had the temerity to defy them.

            We need more of this sort of leadership.

            • A.Ziffel 3.1.3.2.1.1
              11 November 2021 at 5:07 pm

              Shane slapped his forehead because he knew this decision would be doubly injurious – first to the Taranaki economy & secondly to NZ emissions, as Huntly would inevitably burn less gas & more brown Indonesian coal.

              ( see genesis-carbon-dioxide-levels-up-82-per-cent-compared-to-previous-years )

              I doubt the PM made an impromptu decision after spotting Greenpeace abseilers.

              & I wouldn't be surprised if the "appointment with the Indonesian ambassador" touched on securing coal imports.

        • alwyn 3.1.3.3
          11 November 2021 at 2:15 pm

          You say "I often think of the Labour MPs who took to the water in small boats to join with protesters against nuclear ships as a model.".

          For the life of me I cannot think of a single Labour Party MP who did that. Fraser Colman was sent up the Mururoa by Norman Kirk but that was on a frigate. That ship, with a crew of about 250 could hardly be described as small. Rumour at the time also said that it wasn't a voluntary trip as Kirk was supposed to have had Colman's name on every slip of paper that went into the hat to pick the happy wanderer.

          Who were the Labour MPs you had in mind?

          • Jenny how to get there 3.1.3.3.1
            11 November 2021 at 11:27 pm

            Richard Prebble did not get his nickname "Mad Dog" from his later Right Wing politics, but from his stunt at the wheel of small yacht with other MPs that he steered under the bow of a US nuclear war ship entering Wellington Harbour, almost snagging the yacht’s mast on the warships anchor.
            After the protest when they reached shore they were met with police but no charges were laid.

            • alwyn 3.1.3.3.1.1
              12 November 2021 at 11:19 am

              I had never known the Prebble had done that. I guess it must have been the USS Texas in 1983. He really must have been mad at the time. I used to sail dinghies in Wellington Harbour many years ago and I would never have gone anywhere near a ship that size, even if it had been anchored.

              The things one discovers about people you thought you knew. Thank you for the story.

    • Adrian Thornton 3.2
      11 November 2021 at 8:29 am

      James Shaw is exactly the wrong sort of leader the Green party needs at this moment…the last thing the world needs to fight climate change right now is another centrist pragmatist (even a Green one)…no what a party like the Green party needs right now and going forward, to be seen as being the serious climate change political party, is someone with real and deeply rooted progressive principles and who is not afraid to make enemies (and lots of them) defending them at every opportunity…someone brave and fearless, unlike James Shaw….so probably cut from the same cloth of someone like Sue Bradford or Helen Kelly would be a good starting point.

      We can forget about Ardern and NZ Labour at this point,they have proven beyond doubt that they will never be the leaders desperately needed in the battle against climate change right now…which given their unwavering fundamentalist adherence to Free Market Liberalism in the face of an approaching tsunami should surprise no one except the stupid.

      • Dennis Frank 3.2.1
        11 November 2021 at 9:29 am

        You're wrong inasmuch as Sue & Helen were both partisans. Democracy requires a leader to be able to compromise with opponents to get results because it is a numbers game. Consequently centrist winners are inevitable.

        I do agree that James & Marama ought, in theory, to be able to walk & chew gum at the same time. Leadership of the Green movement is indeed missing in politics here.

        • Ad 3.2.1.1
          11 November 2021 at 9:47 am

          If they stay 6-8% James and Marama don't need to do more.

          And Chloe's electorate means they can do even less than 5%.

          I don't see any groundswell of Green members wanting any more from them.

          • garibaldi 3.2.1.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 10:54 am

            Well said Adrian.

            It is well past time to stop pussyfooting around .If the Greens want to survive they need to disavow Labour and get back into activism for the environment and social justice. Atm they are becoming a laughing stock with their wokism and ineffective policy concessions from Labour.

          • Obtrectator 3.2.1.1.2
            11 November 2021 at 5:49 pm

            Haven't had much time lately to trawl through print or even on-line media, so may have missed a great deal. All the same, it seems to me that Marama has been all but invisible since the 2020 election. Isn't the Green Party meant to have joint leaders? What is she (and Chloe, and all the other un-Shaws) up to?

        • Adrian Thornton 3.2.1.2
          11 November 2021 at 12:33 pm

          @Dennis Frank, no you are wrong, this moment needs a leader (or leaders) who will stop with all the bullshit, and start dealing with this impending disaster with the urgency and preparing out citizens for radical changes it is going to require from each and every of us, we need leaders who can cut through the political divide in this moment of crisis (like the best Left wing politicians used to be so good at before these fucking death cult neo-liberal centrists infected Left wing politics with their terminal cancer)..the time for incrementalism has long long past, it is plainly obvious that things are going to start getting very messy in the not to distant future….the Progressive Left need to some how dislodge the extreme centrists from either Labour (won't happen) or The Greens, and to start offering a legitimate positive radical way forward that can mobilize a large part of the population…or The real Right will fill that space, of that you can be absolutely sure.

          In times of crisis, the people always turn to the leader with the most resolute vision of the future..that can either be a good thing through the progressive Left or a Bad thing in the Right…forget about the neo- liberal centrists, they are going to be relegated to the dustbin of history pretty soon, because as everyone knows they never had a vision of the future, their ideology is and has always been short term, which was what made them such a negative and destructive force on the planet.

          • Dennis Frank 3.2.1.2.1
            11 November 2021 at 12:46 pm

            I don't get why you continue to evade the point about how democracy works. I agree about all that crisis psychology stuff, in principle, but don't see any relevance to how people do their politics in practice.

            It's as if you share my belief that democracy is more problem than solution, while being unwilling to actually say so.

            forget about the neoliberal centrists, they are going to be relegated to the dustbin of history pretty soon

            Exactly what I assumed 30+ years ago when James Hansen first blew his climate whistle. Never underestimate the inertia of the sheeple! sad

    • Ad 3.3
      11 November 2021 at 8:34 am

      Maybe James Shaw should just STFU until the results of COP 26 are out.

      There's useful stuff in the final text he could actually discuss instead of his bullshit eyeroll denaibility of 'I was here but never really here'.

      Thunberg's "cocky little sprite" act will wear fast unless she leads a movement that can truly test the power of a government.

      Still, she's got group singing.

      One day Thuneberg will try something really televisual like try to levitate the Pentagon 300 feet in the air through group chanting.

      The plan to levitate the Pentagon was the perfect absurdly inspiring protest for the time | by Stephanie Buck | Timeline

  4. Patricia Bremner 4
    11 November 2021 at 7:49 am

    Dennis, Perhaps Pro Bono work should be added to their Brief? Public Service work which is an expectation of the role? $159 per hour for Criminal Justice service. 7x the minimum wage. They were given the new schedule in March 2020 How many hours would they perform for the State each year? So a week at that rate for 30 hours $4770 plus expenses.

    Currently many would consider that "not too shabby" But to keep up with costs…

    Given the CPI for my teacher's pension has increased by aprox 25% in the same period (since 2008) the new rate should be aprox $198 per hour at least.

    Good income lessens the chance of bribes.

    • Patricia Bremner 4.1
      11 November 2021 at 8:01 am

      Sorry, this did not attach for some reason..my bad?

      • Dennis Frank 4.1.1
        11 November 2021 at 8:14 am

        Maybe you forgot to hit the reply button, but no worries – happened to me sometimes so I now always check the posting.

        Yeah, that type of innovative thinking is helpful & you could send Kris your suggestion & ask him to get officials to assess the merit & report back.

    • gsays 4.2
      11 November 2021 at 11:39 am

      It is also a sterling example for having a maximum wage.

  5. Adrian 5
    11 November 2021 at 8:37 am

    My reply button doesn’t work most times as well. But on another note for all the complainers and whingers …Germany is doing well, eh! 40,000 cases a day mostly all unvaxxed and a further 100,000 deaths projected. Thank you Labour, thank you Jacinda et al.

    • Sabine 5.1
      11 November 2021 at 9:12 am

      some numbers to your hysteria, to make it more palatable

      Total doses given113M

      People fully vaccinated55.9M

      % fully vaccinated67.1%

      some 30 million are due for a booster shot.

      popultion Germany 83.24 million 2020

      in the meantime in a our wee nation of 5 million we got us a totally preventable outbreak of Delta, started Vaccinating like our life depended on ( it does) after July 28th, don't ever mention those that have run out of their 6 month full coverage – everyone jabbed Jan to May, had to be bailed out with vaccines by the Spaniards and the Danes because of course we did not have enough to continue vaccinating realizing that the delivery of October 28th was a bit late, and are here now pretending we have beat Delta.

      Next you tell us that the Danes with its 80% mark of vaccination and rising cases is also losing it.

      Maybe you can just breathe for a moment, stop comparing a transit nation such as Germany to some lost islands at the bottom of the earth – next stop Antarctica – and understand that literally no one a. knows really what they do, and b. all hope and pray that what ever they do is working, and c. that the population will get the jabs when offered, and for what its worth, we are seeing the limitations of Jacinda and her Government – see protests. And it don't matter one bit that you are a supporter of this government, or I don't care about this government, or that they might not have voted at all cause why they fuck would they it won't matter much anyways to them, unless Jacinda forces people to get the jabs we too will look like England, – rising cases, Germany – rising cases, France – rising cases, Italy – raising cases, Poland, Hungary, Austria, Switzerland etc all ditto, and last but least, we go into summer they go into winter, all nicely locked up at home, sniffling noses and all.

      Yes, orange and apples are fruit, and then all comparison stops.

      • Patricia Bremner 5.1.1
        11 November 2021 at 4:46 pm

        "Totally preventable Delta" You lost me there as Delta is not the pushover you think it is. Or does that just fit in with your story? Every country has struggled with Delta, and most still are.

    • Patricia Bremner 5.2
      12 November 2021 at 8:27 am

      Yes, however most people in Auckland feel the virus can't be worse than the 12 week lockdown, especially as it has lowered cases not eliminated them. People have worked up anger, which is replacing caution. That will lead to even more cases with any easing. Jacinda Ardern says she has been kept awake at night…. no doubt torn, as not all the advice is good advice.

      The media trying to pre-empt the PM's messages with their "guesses" and then their choice of "experts" often leads to muddled messaging.

      Also, I think The Director General of Health has messaged in a very anglicised communication style. Sharing the podium with other ethnicities may have strengthened the message. It was very ethnocentristic.

  6. Reality 6
    11 November 2021 at 8:42 am

    The Herald gives Barry Soper's bile and sheer nastiness plenty of exposure today. I have personally witnessed that man having an apoplectic temper tantrum at a Parliamentary security officer who was simply doing his job, some years ago. It was the worst display I have ever seen in public. He oozes venom. He and his wife are a perfect pair. Their child will grow up having those two as parents!

    • Puckish Rogue 6.1
      11 November 2021 at 8:52 am

      Does the hospitality trade have a point, are they being shat on, is the PM seeing for herself?

      • Treetop 6.1.1
        11 November 2021 at 9:35 am

        Hospitality is always going to be a causualty of a pandemic due to the business not having the space to make a maximum turnover due to social distancing and taking off a mask to eat and drink, less foot traffic and people having less to spend in a pandemic.

    • Anne 6.2
      11 November 2021 at 10:09 am

      You beat me to the topic. He's a pathetic prick with the emotional maturity of a five year old. His beef today:

      Jacinda Ardern travelled to and from Auckland on an Air Force jet. The fact that prime ministers get to travel regularly on RNZAF aircraft is something of which he, apparently, has never been aware? (sarc)

      Having a little bit of knowledge of military matters, there will have been serious death threats and her security has been upgraded to the highest level. It is unlikely the public will be informed of the nature of the threats. I also noted she was driven around Auckland in a bullet proof SUV yesterday.

      Of course, Soper knows as much but chooses to spread unsubstantiated muck instead.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-delta-outbreak-barry-soper-why-jacinda-ardern-used-a-defence-force-jet-for-her-flying-auckland-visit/FE2V3YSW57KFMBFKIJP47YIKNI/

      • Treetop 6.2.1
        11 November 2021 at 10:16 am

        Ardern's safety and welfare is not considered as being a priority for Soper. There was also a time restraint as I think Ardern was chairing an APEC meeting later in the day.

        • Treetop 6.2.1.1
          11 November 2021 at 10:27 am

          My wires are crossed Ardern will chair a virtual APEC meeting on 13 November 2021. In saying this she would need time to prepare herself for this. So a time restraint in visiting Auckland.

    • Jimmy 6.3
      11 November 2021 at 10:19 am

      I thought it was a pretty good article. Being an Aucklander myself, I think the Jacinda's trip to Auckland to visit one company that has been able to trade through, and a vaccination centre was a complete waste of time. She should have visited some actual businesses effected by the lockdown.

      • Puckish Rogue 6.3.1
        11 November 2021 at 10:26 am

        I was about to say this myself and this will really start to bite Labour in the butt

      • Macro 6.3.2
        11 November 2021 at 11:03 am

        I thought it was a pretty good article.

        That says more about you than the article. Soper is incapable of writing anything balanced.

        • Jimmy 6.3.2.1
          11 November 2021 at 11:12 am

          At least Soper is more balanced than the Audrey Young rating system.

          • woodart 6.3.2.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 11:34 am

            so, you are saying that one out of date right wing hack is more balanced than another out of date right wing hack? given sopers alcohol consumption, young must have a very bad case of the d.t.

            • Jimmy 6.3.2.1.1.1
              11 November 2021 at 1:42 pm

              I think you will find Audrey very much wears rose tinted glasses…..she even rated Twyford (yes Twyford …the man that has cock ups named after him) a 7/10!!!!!

              We still sometimes hear the expression "Oh shit, I've made a Twyford" here at work when someone fucks up.

              • woodart …
                11 November 2021 at 2:09 pm

                nice try at deflection. yes young does wear BLUE rose tinted glasses. having venn as a dad would do that.

      • bwaghorn 6.3.3
        11 November 2021 at 11:07 am

        So you want her to mingle with heaps of pe6then go back to Wellington??

        Maybe you think it would be good for to catch and transport covid ,but the grownups obviously think differently.

  7. Puckish Rogue 7
    11 November 2021 at 8:51 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300341098/housing-minister-corrects-record-after-clerical-error-leaves-off-475000-in-sponsored-media-stories

    'clerical error'

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/11/kainga-ora-hid-the-fact-it-was-using-labour-candidate-arena-williams-in-taxpayer-funded-advertising.html

    Initially Kāinga Ora included a paragraph disclosing her candidacy, but then pulled the mention – saying "it keeps Kāinga Ora's powder dry too!"

    Takes away scrutiny from housing issues I suppose

  8. Gezza 8
    11 November 2021 at 9:05 am

    .
    Seamus Shag catches a fish – possibly a baby eel.

    • Gezza 8.1
      11 November 2021 at 2:09 pm

      Aww … c’mon folks. ☹️

      I’m not ordinarily one to complain but Seamus works his damp oily little butt feathers off there, & after being up here for several hours still not one post in support of his efforts n prowess? 😳

      Is it becos of the white flashes he’s got? Becos he’s not an All Black little shag? 😠

      • alwyn 8.1.1
        11 November 2021 at 2:31 pm

        You brute you! Cheering Seamus along as he murders a poor little defenseless fish? I'll bet you would have been in the stands cheering along the gladiators as the slaughtered to Christians in the Colosseum.

        Why don't you train Seamus properly. Teach him a vegan diet and make him stick to it. Yah boo sucks.

  9. Pete 9
    11 November 2021 at 9:07 am

    Papua New Guinea

    1 Sounds like New Zealand

    "Healthcare workers and medical aid workers have even reported receiving death threats from rural communities who associate the vaccine with "witchcraft".

    2 Sounds like what some were prepared to tolerate in New Zealand

    "PNG's overwhelmed health system and lack of vaccine protection is proving deadly.

    With the nation's Covid death toll now at 413, even their morgues and funeral services are struggling.

    The country's pandemic response controller, David Manning, recently authorised the mass burial of 200 bodies after the morgue in the capital of Port Moresby was filled beyond capacity. RNZ also reported the mortuary at Port Moresby General Hospital had reached full capacity and was filled with over 300 bodies, despite the limit being 60."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/papua-new-guinea-covid-why-only-17-per-cent-are-fully-vaccinated/DX3OSLMH4JLY4BFIIA7KPEBWC4/

    • Treetop 9.1
      11 November 2021 at 9:54 am

      The witch doctor influence is ingrained in PNG society. This is an extra hurdle to over come to save lives.

  10. Puckish Rogue 10
    11 November 2021 at 9:08 am

    How good were the Black Caps, they've definitely exceeded expectations.

    The thing I'm liking about this team is they're not just relying on one or two players to win games but everyones contributing

    'A champion team will always beat a team of champions'

    • dv 10.1
      11 November 2021 at 9:24 am

      What about that missed catch!!!

      • Puckish Rogue 10.1.1
        11 November 2021 at 9:25 am

        The harder you work the luckier you become smiley

        • Tricledrown 10.1.1.1
          11 November 2021 at 10:26 am

          The smarter you work the luckier you become. These days overwork means burnout. Calvinistic morals have past there used by date.

          • Puckish Rogue 10.1.1.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 10:49 am

            Wrong.

            The become the best because they work, practice, train harder and longer than anyone else

            "A lot of people ask me how do I get to the next level? Well…. you get to the next level by being the first one on the range and the last one to leave." – Jerry Miculek?

            .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzHG-ibZaKM

            .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ3XwizTqDw

            .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFoxfjORvh8&t=183s

            • weka 10.1.1.1.1.1
              11 November 2021 at 10:55 am

              it's not FB PR, if you want to post youtubes, please give some explanation of what is in them (and probably not so many).

              • Puckish Rogue …
                11 November 2021 at 11:36 am

                The clips are of the best in the world demonstrating why hes the best in the world (and just being generally awesome) along with a quote of his to back up my earlier assertion

                And an excuse to watch someone hit a 1000 yard target with a pistol with iron sights and watch the same person fire six aimed shots reload and fire six more aimed shots (with a revolver) all within 2.99 seconds

                Which is just so damned cool

            • Tricledrown 10.1.1.1.1.2
              11 November 2021 at 11:55 am

              The smarter you work the luckier you become. Smarter practice makes a better player.

              Looking at golf DeChambeau would be taking Tigers mantel.But all his practice hasn't made him any better.My son in law a former professional rugby player now a coach.Knows that to much practice leads to more injuries and burnout.

              In France rugby players were training like like football players a non contact sport.The result a very high injury rate and lacklustre performances. The next season he reduced training ,worked on skills and tactics his team went to the top of the league earning promotion until Covid struck.

              The same can be said of many sports .NZ cricket NZ provincial teams don't get any where near the amount of Cricket compared to Australia, India,England or South Africa.Yet NZ punches well above its weight.

    • Ad 10.2
      11 November 2021 at 9:57 am

      +100

      Outstanding performance Black Caps.

    • gsays 10.3
      11 November 2021 at 11:44 am

      Fantastic match, just finished watching the replay.

      Highlights include the see-saw nature of the final 6 overs, England crumpling under pressure, Mitchell/Nesham batting and the Indian chappy standing in front of The Mitchells in the crowd, jumping up excitedly every time the camera went on the former AB coach.

      Whether it is Pakistan or Aussie, this squad has what it takes to beat either of 'em.

      • Puckish Rogue 10.3.1
        11 November 2021 at 12:16 pm

        Agreed.

        This squad is easily the best squad NZ has ever assembled, top and middle order strength in batting, a decent lower order (our number 10 and 11,Boult and Wagner, average 15 and 14 with the bat including a 50 each)

        We've never had three bowlers average under 30 let alone 4, we've even got some decent spinners as well when required

        But what excites we more is the depth in the team.

        Will Young averages 42 in FC with 12 100s and thats not counting Ravindra, Phillips or Mitchell all of whom can bat middle order or replace De Grandhomme

        BJ Watling is the best wicket-keeper batsman bar none yet Blundell and Seifert means the loss won't be as great as first feared

        We've got variety in our pace attack with whatever combinations of swing, seam, speed, height, aggression and left-right bowling you want

        Halcyon days indeed

    • alwyn 10.4
      11 November 2021 at 2:33 pm

      "A champion team will always beat a team of champions".

      True. Oh well the New Zealand team will get second then when they play the final.

    • weka 11.1
      11 November 2021 at 10:16 am

      kind of useless beyond the very broad strokes unless they also poll on why.

      • Ad 11.1.1
        11 November 2021 at 10:27 am

        Two polls saying the same thing in big jumps is good enough for any Cabinet.

        • weka 11.1.1.1
          11 November 2021 at 10:31 am

          oh I'm sure people are taking notice. But most of us don't have access to internal polling that tells us why the drop. Is it just a normal post-emergency resetting of the swing vote? (I'm assuming the Greens didn't take a big jump). Or is there serious dissatisfaction from a chunk of 2020 Labour voters?

          We will hash all that out (or not), but imagine if we had some actual research to be basing discussions on.

          • Dennis Frank 11.1.1.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 10:44 am

            The fact that the Greens are 9 in both puzzles me. They haven't done anything for quite a while. Perhaps it's just a tactical shift away from Labour, by left-Labour voters. Fair-weather friends!

            • weka 11.1.1.1.1.1
              11 November 2021 at 10:53 am

              ok, nine is good. Might be the return from those that went Labour because of Ardern, and are disappointed by her centrism. Now that Labour aren't all huggy in the covid response, it's probably easier to want better action on housing and climate.

    • Ben 11.2
      11 November 2021 at 10:25 am

      Being in power and trying to deal with Covid is a 'no-win' situation, and a juggle with the health of people and the economy. Slide the scale too much in one direction and you take a hit, and unfortunately this can drive poor decision making.

      • weka 11.2.1
        11 November 2021 at 10:25 am

        not to mention the unrelenting stress.

      • Ad 11.2.2
        11 November 2021 at 10:29 am

        You're too kind. National did fine in polling coming out of the GFC and the Christchurch earthquakes (at least for the first year).

        The minimum expectation is that in government you don't make things worse.

        • Patricia Bremner 11.2.2.1
          12 November 2021 at 9:29 am

          There is no equivalence Ad. Covid goes on and on, every day presenting sickness and causing decisions which keep a level of cortisol in the body much higher than usual, which leads to anxiety. The highest stress is losing a loved one or having to move. Both these events are happening with regularity along with "waiting for results".

          "You don't make things worse" 1. Christchurch was controlled and had little input to major decisions which has led to poor outcomes for the water table. 2. Many are waiting for resolution more than 10 years later. The earthquake did not effect most areas of NZ. The GFC was made worse by austerity and failure to meet infrastructure needs on a number of levels. The press did not always press for answers, and those who did were removed.

      • Puckish Rogue 11.2.3
        11 November 2021 at 10:31 am

        Really?

        I recall some polls had National (under Bridges even) and Act edging ahead of Labour/Greens until Covid hit

        So its not a not a 'no-win' situation because it led directly to an election win, imho

        However it could be (depending on how accurate the polls are and I have my doubts) the electorate telling Jacinda and the Labour party what they're thinking

        Will Jacinda listen…don't know but its starting to get interesting again

      • Treetop 11.2.4
        11 November 2021 at 11:42 am

        There are only 24 hours in a day.

      • Jimmy 11.2.5
        11 November 2021 at 1:50 pm

        Rubbish, thus the quote "never let a good crisis go to waste".

        The govt will gain in popularity even only if they handle it in a mediocre way. Take the last election, often called the Covid election by opposition, Labour had all the 1pm air times etc. and gained hugely to win a majority.

        Didn't National do well after Christchurch earthquakes even though they may not have handled them well?

      • georgecom 11.2.6
        11 November 2021 at 4:23 pm

        I have been surprised heading into out spring of discontent that such hadn't occurred earlier. Troubling and factious times for people. Labour got a sizeable lift with their successful handling of the first half of the covid pandemic (helped by an inept National Party admittedly). The realities of covid being driven home now we should expect some swing the other way. In 12 months time if things have settled down and life has returned to some normality for the population and we are steering our way through the covid endemic, accepting some things may not be that pretty along the way, I would pick a fair degree of the rancour and frustration will dissipate.

    • vto 11.3
      11 November 2021 at 10:28 am

      3 waters is a nail in coffin

      they were well warned

      • Ad 11.3.1
        11 November 2021 at 10:30 am

        Local government is a very, very soft target to go beat down on.

        If Labour were going to spend their political capital on something, it may as well be something worthwhile and on a target everyone hates and ignores anyway.

      • Ben 11.3.2
        11 November 2021 at 10:32 am

        I'm not so sure that the average punter fully understands the 3 Waters fiasco. Not enough to shift the dial on a poll more than a point or 2.

        • Dennis Frank 11.3.2.1
          11 November 2021 at 10:46 am

          Yeah I agree with your logic while not seeing any evidence of a fiasco as yet…

          • Puckish Rogue 11.3.2.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 10:55 am

            My FIL is quite up to date and knowledgable about this but hes actually going to a protest over this as well

            Hes retired and its a bit of a drive and I don't think hes ever protested anything before so for him to do this shows the feelings some people have over it

            I think Labour is going to be a bit surprised about this

            • Dennis Frank 11.3.2.1.1.1
              11 November 2021 at 11:35 am

              Labour is going to be a bit surprised

              Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest! The clash between dreams & reality will always throw up a few surprises.

              However I haven't seen any valid point emerge from opponents as yet. Just being conservative & clinging onto stuff won't work. That makes it seem as if conservatives still haven't figured out how to transcend kindergarten politics. Doesn't get them anywhere on an issue where most folk know the system is fucked and await suitable improvements.

              So those who matter (pragmatic centrists) will expect National to describe system improvements that seem likely to work.

        • Robert Guyton 11.3.2.2
          11 November 2021 at 3:24 pm

          3 Waters is not a fiasco. It will prove a successful strategy.

      • Puckish Rogue 11.3.3
        11 November 2021 at 10:35 am

        One positive thing to say about Jacinda Ardern is that her political antenna is/was always spot on, she knew which way the wind was blowing or at least which way to minimise bad news (no bad thing in a leader)

        But this just seems…all wrong, like 3 waters is what you want to die on a hill on?

        • Dennis Frank 11.3.3.1
          11 November 2021 at 10:53 am

          Gotta wait for the select committee process to produce an output before we see if it really is a dog's breakfast. So far just fear-mongering.

        • Cricklewood 11.3.3.2
          11 November 2021 at 4:01 pm

          Its a hill to die on when you try to ram it through when everythings already tense and protest groups are active. Groundswell + Covid protesters + three waters could really make for large and disruptive protests that gain momentum.

      • RedLogix 11.3.4
        11 November 2021 at 10:37 am

        Talking with an old friend yesterday – more than a friend really – who I know has has voted left all his life. We're talking an educated, experienced professional with a lot of street smarts. Way more than me. He still speaks well of Helen Clarks government for instance.

        But he's not voting Labour this time.

        It's not one single issue – it's an accumulation of political actions from this govt that he sees forming a disturbing pattern. He used the word 'betrayal'.

        • Pete 11.3.4.1
          11 November 2021 at 10:45 am

          The next government under David Seymour will no doubt resurrect his faith in politicians. The Act/National/Tamaki parties will make a great coalition.

        • Gezza 11.3.4.2
          11 November 2021 at 12:32 pm

          They’ve gone too far down the Jacinda cult of personality track, trading more or less completely on her carefully manufactured (& heavily choreographed) celebrity status.

          When you look beyond the Jacinda front person, there’s not a lot of competence & confidence on show among the rest of the Ministerial front benches, imo.

          Most Ministers we see ANYTHING of at all come across to me as low interest or defensive, as often quite ill-informed, & as generally underwhelming.

          And some stuff being worked on almost furtively in the background (like He Puapua & Three Waters) is going to become hugely controversial.

          • Jimmy 11.3.4.2.1
            11 November 2021 at 1:57 pm

            Robertson, Hipkins and Little are the heavy lifters. The rest of Labour as you say, gave rise to the oppositions saying "Labour talent pool shallower than a car park puddle on a summers day"

            • Gezza 11.3.4.2.1.1
              11 November 2021 at 2:22 pm

              I agree with your pick of Labour’s hard workers there, Jimmy.

              Mahuta puts in solid effort too, but I’m a wee bit wary of her Māori Caucus agenda, & of her judgement when it comes to diplomacy. There’ve been times when I think her saying a helluva lot less would have been a lot more more diplomatic. Peters mastered this art.

              “Staunch as, bro ” works well here in NZ sometimes, in some situations, but in some parts of the world mild & flowery phrases are the way to go, while the officials do the hard arguing & the grunt work with “the opposition””s minions – imo.

            • Gezza 11.3.4.2.1.2
              11 November 2021 at 2:28 pm

              Sorry Mod.
              My reply to Jimmy’s gone into the ether. Suspect an email addy screwup has it parked in Moderation. 😰

            • Patricia Bremner 11.3.4.2.1.3
              11 November 2021 at 5:22 pm

              Where are the competent National Bods? Talk about that little problem of “shallow puddles”

        • Bearded Git 11.3.4.3
          11 November 2021 at 7:20 pm

          So presumably he will vote Green.

      • Tricledrown 11.3.5
        11 November 2021 at 12:06 pm

        Labour needs to change tac urgently on the stupid idea of 3 waters.Given no mayor is in favour of this mandate.

        It could loose labour the next election mandating after offering an opt out option.Once the Covid hysteria dies down people will not be happy having another govt bearaucracy taxing everyone including those councils who have invested heavily in upgrading their water services.They will be subsidising those who have let their infrastructure rundown.A massive Vote looser.

    • alwyn 11.4
      11 November 2021 at 10:34 am

      It is still pretty much the same as the last Roy Morgan poll with the Labour Green combination comfortably in front.

      In my dreams I would like to see what would happen if National changed the leadership to a Luxon leader, Bridges deputy combination. I would pick an immediate swing of around 10% from Labour to National with only a minor hit, if any, on the ACT vote.

      Just a dream mind but I would love to see how accurate my prediction would turn out. I don't know what Luxon would be like as PM, mind, but the intellectual fun would be in seeing what the polls did. Still a Luxon PM with a Bridges backup would probably be OK and anything would be better than the shambles that is the current Government.

      • Dennis Frank 11.4.1
        11 November 2021 at 10:51 am

        Wouldn't surprise me, but it would be a honeymoon effect only. Reality would slim the margin down readily. Policies would kill the Nats. Unless Luxon has more of a brain than was evident in his corporate phase. He presents well but that just reduces the Ardern x-factor somewhat. They're still a bunch of useless losers no matter which angle you view them from.

        • Cricklewood 11.4.1.1
          11 November 2021 at 4:06 pm

          Get a new leader thats not as divisive and they wont need to do a helluva lot about policy. I'm sure one of the drivers of the big vote split along gender lines is Judith.

          There's alot of dissatisfaction around now wont take much to harness some of that.

      • garibaldi 11.4.2
        11 November 2021 at 11:10 am

        Well how about the prediction that Luxon would be rejected by a large majority. A fundamentalist Chritstian as a Prime Minister is not a viable option.

        • alwyn 11.4.2.1
          11 November 2021 at 1:47 pm

          "not a viable option". Why on earth not?

          We have already accepted an unmarried mother. I don't think we would have any problem with a homosexual male were she to give up and Grant become the Labour leader.

          Why should anyone who says they hold Christian beliefs be a problem? You talk about being a fundamentalist Christian but I wouldn't think that there are very many people in the country who even know what that is supposed to mean. I certainly don't and I can't even be bothered trying to work it out.

          • Robert Guyton 11.4.2.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 2:58 pm

            If Luxon got anywhere near the top of his party, everyone would soon learn what a fundamentalist Christian of Luxon's ilk thinks – and as Garibaldi hints, it'd sink him and his party.

          • Patricia Bremner 11.4.2.1.2
            11 November 2021 at 5:26 pm

            The World was built in 7 days and is only 4000 years old and males are the head of the household. Stuff like that Alwyn. Oh and Christ is coming again then we really get divided. Apologies to any true believers, I envy your certainty.

            • alwyn 11.4.2.1.2.1
              11 November 2021 at 6:40 pm

              I take this to mean that the basic thing uniting them is a belief that the bible is literally true and if it is in the bible then it really happened.

              As long as they just believe it and don't demand that I do so I guess I couldn't care less. I have a very simple set of beliefs. Primarily there isn't any such thing as a god and anyone who believes in such a thing is nuts. Then there are just different degrees of nuttiness, and as long as you don't make me behave according to your beliefs you can proclaim anything at all.

              That doesn't mean that there isn't anything valuable in the beliefs of some religious groups. About half the commandments make sense as a way of living. The first 4 are simply silly, The rest aren't too bad as a guide to how we should treat other people.

              As long as Luxon doesn't try and impose his way of living on me I think he is harmless. He certainly is likely to cause less damage that followers of some of the other main religions who believe that if they say something is true I have to also do so.

    • Gezza 11.5
      11 November 2021 at 11:12 am

      Early days, but the polls are going to get much more interesting over the next few months. The shine has gone off Ardern. Things Covid seem very muddled to my current occasionally-sleep-deprived-thus-addled brain but I’m picking up confusion & dissatisfaction more generally where before there was more clarity & support for Jacinda among my personal contacts.

      The msm journos are hungry for a change of diet, imo. Some might also be getting a bit resentful & tired of the ‘grace & favour’ favourites style media conferences Ardern has been directing with more firmness than we are used to seeing from PMs.

      They could go looking to make mischief now.

    • swordfish 11.6
      11 November 2021 at 1:10 pm

      .

      Ardern down just 4 points in UMR to a still impressive 47% PPM … but plunges a massive (I'm guessing unprecedented) 13 points in the Curia poll to 34% (albeit most of those swinging into non-committal territory rather than across the aisle).

    • Bearded Git 11.7
      11 November 2021 at 2:09 pm

      Labour is going to need that 9 per cent Green vote to form a coalition.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 12.1
      11 November 2021 at 12:11 pm

      Thanks. Yes, that is very sad. We could prevent so much suffering by being nicer to people earlier.

  13. joe90 13
    11 November 2021 at 1:41 pm

    Enjoy the golden telephone Mr Martin. Fucking dog of a man.

    An electric backing gate, which pushes cows into the shed, came off its rollers. Fogo went to help put it back on but “it fell on me”.

    He was wearing a motorcycle helmet when it happened, but his health quickly deteriorated, and he went home.

    He went to Maniototo Hospital in Ranfurly and the sole person on that Saturday – a duty nurse – gave him a codeine tablet for his headache and sent him home.

    “By Monday I was a mess.”

    Fogo returned to work but could manage only a few hours at a time.

    “That was when the fun started,” he said.

    Scans revealed he had suffered injuries to his head and neck, and he was advised not to return to work.

    He was recuperating at home when a fellow dairy farmworker dropped off a letter advising him that he and his wife had 10 days to vacate their home on the farm.

    The letter, sent by Graeme Martin of Otago Rural Management, said Fogo’s absence from work was causing “operational and management issues” for the company, and his occupation of the home was “placing constraints on both staff requirements and the allocation of accommodation”.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/126893282/i-thought-all-my-brains-had-blown-out-mans-fiveyear-battle-after-work-accident

  14. Puckish Rogue 14
    11 November 2021 at 1:54 pm

    Anyone following the Kyle Rittenhouse case?

    Shows just how screwed up the American legal system, social media, legacy media, tech overloads really are

    • Pete 14.1
      11 November 2021 at 3:17 pm

      And how screwed up America is when a kid thinks there might be trouble in town so gets a gun and goes there to sort it out.

    • Gezza 14.2
      11 November 2021 at 3:20 pm

      Not really. I read an article about the trial on Newshub’s website earlier today but haven’t been following the case & don’t even know how many days in it is.

      Defendant’s moved for a mistrial. Judge has taken it under advisement, I read.

      Quite a contrast with the days n days of tv coverage given to George Floyd’s murder.

      What are your main “takeaways”?

      • Puckish Rogue 14.2.1
        11 November 2021 at 4:10 pm
        1. Personally speaking I don't think he should have been there in the first place however that he was is not illegal

        2. The kid is not guilty and in fact it shouldn't have even gone to trial, surely there is no clearer case of self-defence than this

        3. The kid had the wrong political affiliation, purely and simply this is about politics. He was even booted off gofundme to try to raise funds for his defence

        4. One of the dead was a pedo so not going to cry over that

        5. The witness's for the prosecutors ending up proving Kyles claim of self-defence

        6. The kid looks absolutely shattered

        7. I really hope the kid sues every damn media company he can

        • Gezza 14.2.1.1
          11 November 2021 at 4:24 pm

          Fits with my reading of the Newshub article & my watching of many Al Jazeera news reports & their video footage at the time.

          I reckon you’ve got all of those points bang on correct.

          • Puckish Rogue 14.2.1.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 4:29 pm

            I watched the kid break down today and it'll take a long time for him, if ever, to get over this and I doubt he ever will

    • joe90 14.3
      11 November 2021 at 3:50 pm

      It's fixed. Every time the prosecution makes headway or catches the murderous thug lying, the judge wades in to get him off the hook.

      https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1458521835151269893

      Prosecutors in the criminal trial of Kyle Rittenhouse, the teenager who shot and killed two protesters last year in Kenosha, Wis., will not be able to refer to the people he shot as "victims," a judge has ruled, while defense attorneys may be able to call them "arsonists" or "looters."

      In a proceeding about the ground rules for the upcoming trial, prosecutors and defense lawyers debated whether certain language, witnesses or evidence would be allowed. The trial begins next week.

      "The word 'victim' is a loaded, loaded word. And I think 'alleged victim' is a cousin to it," Judge Bruce Schroeder said on Monday, asking prosecutors to instead use the terms "complaining witness" or "decedent" to refer to those shot by Rittenhouse.

      https://www.wpr.org/prosecutors-cannot-call-those-shot-kyle-rittenhouse-victims-looters-ok

      • Puckish Rogue 14.3.1
        11 November 2021 at 4:20 pm

        You're wrong.

        Watch this (with your blinks off)

        Pay special attention to the footage at 1.42, 2.38 and 3.27 also watch the prosecutions witnesses at 4.22 and 6.32 in their own words

        • McFlock 14.3.1.1
          11 November 2021 at 4:26 pm

          How does that relate to not being allowed to use the word "victim" but to call them "arsonists"?

          • Puckish Rogue 14.3.1.1.1
            11 November 2021 at 4:31 pm

            I'm sure a lawyer can jump in here but in this instance calling them victims might be unfairly prejudicial or something?

            • McFlock 14.3.1.1.1.1
              11 November 2021 at 4:43 pm

              And calling them an arsonist isn't?

              • Puckish Rogue …
                11 November 2021 at 4:49 pm

                See I was more referring to the testimony where prosecutors own witness said that the guy who was shot said if he caught them alone he'd kill them

                Then the footage showing Kyle being chased and assulted

                Then the testimony, again from the prosecutors own witness, stating that the guy shot was lunging towards the rifle

                • McFlock …
                  11 November 2021 at 4:51 pm

                  Hey, I'm sure shapiro edited it really well.

                  I still don't see how that video relates to the suggestion that the judge is biasing the trial while breaking silences with his trump-rally ringtones.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    11 November 2021 at 4:58 pm

                    Edited it? Thats what you've got, edited?

                    You think the footage where Kyles being chased was edited or where he was surrounded was edited

                    Are you really that blinded by ideology?

                    • McFlock …
                      11 November 2021 at 5:26 pm

                      Haven't bothered to watch it, because nothing you've said seems to indicate that it's actually relevant to whether the judge is "blinded by ideology".

                      You want to talk about pedos and whatnot, fine. Heck, maybe shapiro's telling the truth for once in his life. But how is it relevant to the administration of the trial?

                      Rittenhouse travelled across state lines with an assault rifle while underage to clip his hero ticket, and shot three people. Maybe he gets away with it, maybe not. But both sides have laid their grounds for appeal, so regardless of what happens next week it probably won't be the end of it.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      11 November 2021 at 5:33 pm

                      I haven't always agreed with you McFlock but I never took you for a liar

                      Are you that desperate to score a 'point'?

                    • McFlock …
                      11 November 2021 at 5:38 pm

                      liar?

                      I haven't watched it.

                      He took his rifle across state lines, no? Shot three people?

                      Both sides have grounds for an appeal – one on prejudicial language, the other suggesting bad faith by the prosecution?

                      Where am I wrong?

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      11 November 2021 at 5:55 pm

                      "Haven't bothered to watch it," well of course not, wouldn't want any pesky new information to change your view now would you

                      This is where you lied:

                      "Rittenhouse travelled across state lines with an assault rifle"

                      He did not have an assault rifle, he had an AR-15-type rifle.

                      May not mean much to you but an assault rifle can be operated in semi and fully automatic mode whereas an AR-15 is only capable of semi-automatic fire plus there are laws in Wisconsin around assault rifles

                      This what the media do though and thats to try to make things sound more dangerous than they are in an effort to smear and make people like you think what they want you to think and you've swallowed the medias line hook, line and sinker, well done.

                      Also Kyle Rittenhouse broke no laws so it doesn't matter if he 'travelled across state lines' or not

                    • McFlock …
                      11 November 2021 at 6:09 pm

                      Really? You think the difference in lower receiver counts as a substantive element in the description of his actions?

                      Well, then, I stand corrected, for whatever it's worth.

                      As for new info to change my view, fuck ben shapiro. If you need him to argue your point, good luck with that.

                    • McFlock …
                      11 November 2021 at 6:34 pm

                      Also Kyle Rittenhouse broke no laws so it doesn't matter if he 'travelled across state lines' or not

                      Dude had rifle while under the age of 18. That seems to be contrary to at least one wisconsin law.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      11 November 2021 at 6:43 pm

                      I'm not asking you to watch the whole thing because heaven forbid your delicate little mind becomes sullied by a different view point

                      I am asking you to watch these parts at 1.42, 2.38 and 3.27 also watch the prosecutions witnesses at 4.22 and 6.32 in their own words because its video and drone footage and the prosecutions own witnesses

                      'You think the difference in lower receiver counts as a substantive element in the description of his actions?'

                      Yes and heres why.

                      The phrase 'assault rifle' conjures up images and emotions in people and make them think negatively

                      So instead of saying Kyle was carrying a semi-auto (which he was) you say he was carrying am assault rifle (which he wasn't)

                      Also don't you think its important to be accurate, especially when the information is very easily found

                      ''You want to talk about pedos and whatnot, fine. Heck, maybe shapiro's telling the truth for once in his life. But how is it relevant to the administration of the trial?

                      Seriously?

                      Maybe hes telling the truth?

                      You jump into the conversation and you don't even know the basic facts about the case?

                      Were you bored or just trying to hijack the thread?

                      The men shot by Kyle were bad men, child molesters, domestic abusers, druggies

                      So yes when those type of people jump into riots and threaten and chase and produce firearms and aim them then yes their backgrounds are relevant

                      As for biases here the president linking a 17 year old to white supremacists but hey lets talk about the judge: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8791801/Kyle-Rittenhouses-attorneys-say-sue-Joe-Biden-libel.html

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      11 November 2021 at 6:59 pm

                      So innocent until proven guilty doesn't count or do you know every single fire arm law in Wisconsin?

                    • McFlock …
                      11 November 2021 at 7:03 pm

                      Dude, I just wanted to know what your link had to do with the comment that preceded it.

                      I guess the answer is "nothing".

                      As for gun types, the kid had a similar gun to what the chch prick used, so I'm not sure calling it an "assault rifle" conjures up emotions more negative than that.

                      The men shot by Kyle were bad men, child molesters, domestic abusers, druggies

                      what are you, three? Are you trying to rustle up a legal defense, or just an excuse to not give a shit if Rittenhouse did actually do something legally wrong?

                      So innocent until proven guilty doesn’t count or do you know every single fire arm law in Wisconsin?

                      That’s why I used the term “That seems to be contrary”…
                      As opposed to your unqualified claims of innocence.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      11 November 2021 at 7:25 pm

                      'what are you, three? Are you trying to rustle up a legal defense, or just an excuse to not give a shit if Rittenhouse did actually do something legally wrong?'

                      Heres what I said about that:

                      So yes when those type of people jump into riots and threaten and chase and produce firearms and aim them then yes their backgrounds are relevant

                      They have shown themselves in the past to be violent, to be dangerous so their backgrounds are very relevant especially given that lawsuits are floating about (a guilty conviction means money)

                      Also interesting CNN whitewashing the convictions:

                      https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/01/us/kyle-rittenhouse-shooting-victims-trial/index.html

                      Versus

                      https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2021/03/12/kenosha-shooting/

                    • McFlock …
                      11 November 2021 at 7:33 pm

                      By that logic, Rittenhouse's prior behaviour should also be relevant, no? But the judge disagreed.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      11 November 2021 at 7:50 pm

                      'By that logic, Rittenhouse's prior behaviour should also be relevant, no? '

                      I would like to know about his background

                    • McFlock …
                      11 November 2021 at 7:54 pm

                      Didn't Ben Shapiro tell you what the judge said was inadmissable? There's a surprise.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      11 November 2021 at 8:11 pm

                      Reread what I typed and try again

                    • McFlock …
                      11 November 2021 at 8:45 pm

                      They're the same thing. Prosecution tried to introduce his prior behaviour, judge said no. There's probably a youtube vid somewhere to expain it to you.

                      But if shapiro is showing a bias in what evidence he presents similar to the bias the links in 4.3 imply the judge is showing, maybe your clip was tangentially relevant after all.

                      But if you cast your net a bit wider, you might find the information you seek.

                    • Puckish Rogue []
                      12 November 2021 at 7:49 am

                      How about, and this is just a suggestion, that instead of saying if you instead watch the actual clips

                      I know, I know you want to remain unsullied and clean so you couldn't possibly watch anything of his

                      In which case maybe you shouldn't comment since you clearly don't know what you're talking about

                    • McFlock …
                      12 November 2021 at 1:50 pm

                      I know what the judge said couldn't be admitted, so I know more than you, obviously. I just don't give a shit about semantic differences between the types of gun people use to kill each other.

        • joe90 14.3.1.2
          11 November 2021 at 6:27 pm

          The babbling chihuahua with the bed made of money?

          Fucking sad.

          /

  15. Red Blooded One 15
    11 November 2021 at 2:02 pm

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/455465/eight-arrests-after-major-cocaine-bust-in-canterbury

    Great work from the Police. While it's often easy to criticize them you never know how hard they are working behind the scenes.

  16. observer 16
    11 November 2021 at 2:52 pm

    Today's 2 polls have interesting detail on individual National MPs. There is no public appetite for Bridges at all, they might as well pick Bishop (but won't, because he's not conservative enough for caucus).

    Reti doesn't register so that only leaves Luxon as the new leader, when he's done nothing to show he's ready. Which explains why Collins hangs on.

    A few months ago I'd have put good money on her being rolled by Xmas. No more than 50-50 now.

    (edit: swordfish data at 11.6.2.1)

    • Gezza 16.1
      11 November 2021 at 3:29 pm

      Failed to arrive on station, imo. Luxon’s a dead in the water smoking hulk before he’s even mission-ready, imo.

      National are in serious leadership trouble. Collins is a gaffe-prone disaster. Someone is going to have to come out of left field like Ardern did.

      They could probably sell Willis; she seems to have the smarts, the RAM, the intellectual equipment, & the gonads to pull it off.

    • Puckish Rogue 16.2
      11 November 2021 at 4:22 pm

      Jude is just starting to make her run, next election Jude the Magnificent will be on the throne

      You heard it here first

    • Bearded Git 16.3
      11 November 2021 at 5:16 pm

      Reti seems competent and fairly knowledgeable so he will never register.

  17. Pete 17
    11 November 2021 at 3:25 pm

    Southern DHB board member resigns over vaccine mandate conflict

    Good.

    "RNZ reported it saw emails in which Beekhuis wrote: “I'm writing, as a publicly elected official of the Southern DHB, to say that it's abhorrent that you would enforce a vaccine mandate on your staff. It's completely amoral, unethical, and medically unnecessary.”

    This came after she voted against a Southern District Health Board motion last week calling for a commitment to at least 90 per cent Covid-19 vaccination rates across communities."

    It seems the woman would have been happy for the Southern Health Board district to have a 0% Covid vaccination rate.

    Anyone who ignores the advantages of covid vaccination in minimising the effects of the virus who is in a position of power, is endangering public health.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126960883/southern-dhb-board-member-resigns-over-vaccine-mandate-conflict

  18. Macro 18
    11 November 2021 at 5:00 pm

    Well who would have thought! Natural selection in action. 🙂

    People are now dying from COVID-19 at a rate 3 times higher in counties where former President Donald Trump won at least 60% of the vote than in counties where President Joe Biden won a similar percentage, according to a New York Times analysis of the data.

    And that partisan gap – which didn’t emerge until the widespread availability of vaccines in the spring of 2021 – has consistently widened over the last 5 months.

    The gap, according to the Times, accelerated at its fastest rate yet in October, coming out to 25 COVID deaths per 100,000 residents in counties where Trump won more than 60% of the vote, versus 7.8 deaths per 100k in counties where Biden did the same.

    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trump-biden-counties-covid-death-rate-3-times-higher-vaccines-2021-11

    I guess that's one way of improving the intellect levels in the population. But the Repugnants had better watch out! Their base is crumbling. Mind you with dopes like Cruz at the helm and telling them what to think what more can you expect.

    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2021/nov/07/ted-cruz-condemns-big-bird-covid-vaccines