Open mike 13/03/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:01 am, March 13th, 2014 - 195 comments
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openmike Open mike is your post.

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Step up to the mike …

195 comments on “Open mike 13/03/2014 ”

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  1. phillip ure 1
    13 March 2014 at 7:11 am

    this has lifted my morning..

    http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/mar/12/johnny-cash-she-used-to-love-me-a-lot-exclusive-video

    “..Acclaimed director John Hillcoat has made a video for a song from Johnny Cash’s forthcoming ‘lost’ album..”

    phillip ure..

  2. David H 2
    13 March 2014 at 7:17 am

    And the Nats business as usual. And here comes yet another shit storm for the Nats.(With any Luck)

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11218598

    Theyhad a go at Shane Jones about this, and he was cleared. But now it seems a case of pot calling Kettle black yet again..

    3 scandals in a week. Well done National.

    • North 2.1
      13 March 2014 at 7:50 am

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11218598

      This has the look of ‘appearance money’.

      Would be interesting to know the cost of Crosby Textor PR and tactical advice to the National Party over the years and by whom it has been paid.

      Advanced instruction in “trickiness” which of course includes how to accuse everyone else of being ‘tricky’, would not come cheap I imagine.

      There was a time in the 30s when post-abdication the Duke and Duchess of Windsor would demand appearance money for attending the fabulous dinner parties of American East Coast high society matrons.

      Does the National Party have an ‘Edward & Wallis Fund’ ?

      • North 2.1.1
        13 March 2014 at 8:11 am

        PS – I well recall Patrick Gower in a semi-apoplexy about the more-or-less exculpatory findings of the investigation into Shane Jones’ ministerial actions re the wealthy Asian businessman.

        “I AM ANGRY !” boomed Monsieur ‘And-Som with a ferocity that had me scrambling for the remote.

        Settle in for white rage from Patrick Gower on TV 3 News tonight………ya reckon ?

    • Sosoo 2.2
      13 March 2014 at 7:52 am

      More National sleaze

    • Colonial Viper 3.1
      13 March 2014 at 1:34 pm

      Hmmmm they already did that, it’s called Windows (and OS X is no better).

  4. phillip ure 4
    13 March 2014 at 7:34 am

    d’ya know any libertarians..?

    ..confused wee souls..aren’t they..

    “..3 Things That Make Libertarian Heads Explode..

    ..Libertarians tend to ride on theoretical unicorns –

    • that don’t take them that far in the real world..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.alternet.org/economy/3-things-make-libertarian-heads-explode

    phillip ure..

    • adam 4.1
      13 March 2014 at 8:30 am

      I’m all for unregulated business, as long as workers are armed, and the state leaves us to sort it out 🙂

      • greywarbler 4.1.1
        13 March 2014 at 9:01 am

        Sounds like unions and business in the good old days in the USA. Sigh – nostalgia!

    • Paul 5.1
      13 March 2014 at 7:45 am

      That’s why Nat’s propaganda sheets keep publishing rogue polls.
      Control the media, control the people.
      Solution….find independent sources of media and DNFTT.

    • swordfish 5.2
      13 March 2014 at 8:03 am

      @ The aptly named drongo:

      Here, my fine feathered Tory, is some analysis I’ve recently completed (and partly posted elsewhere).

      What I’ve done is to calculate National’s monthly poll average for the 08 and 11 Election years and then compared it (in parentheses) with National’s actual Party-Vote result at the Election later that year: (so, for example, the Nats averaged 52% in the opinion polls of March 2011 and that was 5 percentage points higher than the proportion they in fact received at the 2011 election):

      National 2011

      March 52% (+5), April 54% (+7), May 52% (+5), June 53% (+6), July 53% (+6), August 54% (+7), September 55% (+8), October 54% (+7), Early November 52% (+5), Late November 51% (+4), 2011 Election: 47%

      National 2008

      March 49% (+4), April 51% (+6), May 52% (+7), June 54% (+9), July 51% (+6), August 49% (+4), September 49% (+4), Early/Mid October 48% (+3), Late October/Early November 46% (+1), 2008 Election: 45%

      So, all things being equal, I suspect you can probably subtract 4-7 points off National’s current polling (averaging roughly 49% at the moment). Then again, if their current spike in support is only temporary (and they revert to, say, the 44% they were averaging until just a few weeks ago), then perhaps the 4-7 points should come off this lower level of support ?

      But, in any case, it’s also important not to assume that these 4-7 points can simply be added on to the Left Bloc vote. Some of it goes to National’s minor support parties on the Right (they tend to receive a little boost after Key’s teacup luncheons) and to NZ First. It does, however, mean that the Left and Right Blocs are a little closer than you might assume from recent polling.

      I might add, there are one or two rumours that National’s internal polling is picking up a sharp dip in support for both National and Key. Just rumours at the moment, but very interesting.

      • phillip ure 5.2.1
        13 March 2014 at 8:33 am

        chrs 4 that swordfish..

        phillip ure..

      • North 5.2.2
        13 March 2014 at 9:19 am

        Excellent work there Swordy. Thanks for putting in the effort. Illuminating.

        The effect of the appearance (note – “appearance”) of ‘Smile & Wave & Invoice’ ?

        Age old readily digestible concept that one.

        God forbid that the masses get well above their station and latch onto it.

        Urgent memo ShonKey Python to Crosby Fester – ” How the hell does one issue a ‘final warning’ to an entire population while maintaining ‘Smile & Wave’ ? “

      • Tracey 5.2.3
        13 March 2014 at 9:25 am

        Dont use facts. Drongos head will explode… oh wait

  6. dv 6
    13 March 2014 at 7:43 am

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11218505

    “The average power bill for a family of four will rise by 2.4 per cent this year, Energy and Resources Minister Simon Bridges said yesterday as he faced questions from political opponents intent on making electricity increases an election-year issue.”

    My lines company has raised the daily line cost from $1 t A DAY to $2 A DAY

    $365 increase a year
    That is about 12% per year!!!!

    • bad12 6.1
      13 March 2014 at 7:59 am

      And UP goes the Official Cash Rate, that which is the indicator of future bank mortgage rates, Reserve Bank Governor is expected to announce the rise to 2.75 at 9 o’clock this morning,

      Speeding train hits brick wall,???, You bet, future interest rates on mortgages with the expected 25 point rise are going to go up weekly by 20 bucks for every hundred thousand borrowed,

      Those in the bigger cities with a mortgage at the low end of the spectrum, $300,000, will be paying an extra $60 a week, to work out the cost you only need add $20 for every $100,000 of mortgage,

      Knee-capping an economy that has just struggled out of the after effects of the Global Financial Crisis aint smart and is more easily explained by pointing out that across the mortgage belt each household will have to shrink their spending into the economy by 60–$100 a week,

      Renters will not escape the interest rates rises to follow as it is unlikely that landlords will be willing to shoulder all of the expected cost increases so at least part of this will pass into the economy via higher rents being paid,

      Expect 20,000 more unemployed in a years time…

      • bad12 6.1.1
        13 March 2014 at 8:40 am

        Banksters strike again???, You bet, the inflation rate??? a lowly 1.6%, unemployment??? raging along at 6.1%, 150,000 of our fellow Kiwi’s jobless,destitute, and, kicked around for sport by Paula Bennett and WINZ,

        The Kiwi$$$, nearly on a par with the Aussie one, expect this to creep up another couple of cents as the interest rates rise,=more unemployment

        BERL economist Ganish Nana???, raising the cash rate now with the economic indicators where they are, Stupid!!!,

        WestPac bankster economist Dominic Stevens, the cash rate and interest rates has to go up because we should remember the 1970’s, what we should remember is it will be the Banksters and only the Banksters who will profit from this,

        Boom, blow another hole in the Government books, more unemployment equals less tax payers, higher benefit costs, along with less spending in the economy from those paying 60 to a $100 dollars more a week in mortgage payments, estimated hole in the Government accounts +half a billion to a billion dollars on top of the already unsustainable 2 billion gap between government spending and revenue,

        Outlook for next 3 years= ROCK-BOTTOM ECONOMY…

        • greywarbler 6.1.1.1
          13 March 2014 at 9:05 am

          Ganish Nana? is not stupid I think. He seemed to be saying that it was unnecessary and likely to be depressing on the economy to raise the interest rate. The first
          2.75% quarter of a percentage point,first since 2010.

          Institute of Economic Research spokesperson Yakob is going to speak to Kathryn Ryan. I think he will be dry, and is probably part of our drought problem here over the country. Thought it would be up by .50 instead of .25 to send strong signals to fix home interest rates to the banks. That’s how you handle the country’s economy folks. I love that bit I heard earlier where that would be so good in keeping the country stable, from an economist of course. That’s while under their ministrations of the financial field they send our exchange rate through the roof and firms teeter on being insolvent as a result. So steady.

          Don Brash’s little voice still piping on. Wish someone would eipe him off this sinking ship.

          • bad12 6.1.1.1.1
            13 March 2014 at 9:19 am

            Greywarbler, exactly what He was saying, Stupid Stupid Stupid, perhaps i should have put that in quotation marks as it could be read that i am insinuating He is stupid, which i aint…

            • greywarbler 6.1.1.1.1.1
              13 March 2014 at 4:48 pm

              Yes you should have put quotes! Don’t want to appear to be dissing any of the informed seekers of facts and truth we are lucky enough to have.

              • bad12 …
                13 March 2014 at 5:29 pm

                Perhaps warbler, you should either wear specs or read a little slower, anyone with a fully functioning nut can see that i am not dissing Nana, and my apologies to the economist i believe His name is Danish…

        • bad12 6.1.1.2
          13 March 2014 at 9:17 am

          Got your calculators ready, crunch these numbers, the Reserve Bank governor as expected, has just raised the Official cash rate to 2.75,

          For anyone with a 300 grand mortgage that equates to the Banksters sucking 60 bucks a week outta your pockets and that is just the Governors ”teaser”,

          The Governor in this mornings statement has indicated that by years end, that’s this year, the OCR will be up to 3.75 and at the end of 2015 a crushing 4.75,

          So, for mortgage holders at the low end of the spectrum, $300,000 Kaching, Kaching, the Banksters are going to delve into your pockets by up to 260 dollars a week on top of what your now paying,

          Above i consider that the initial interest rates rises will cost an extra 20,000 jobs,

          Given what the Reserve Bank Governor ‘plans’ for the economy i would suggest that unemployment by the end of 2015 is likely to be 200,000 and rising,

          Rock-Bottom economy here we come…

          • RedBaronCV 6.1.1.2.1
            13 March 2014 at 8:54 pm

            The internal polling for the Nacts must be truely dreadful – the increase in the cash rate will help them offhsore their money before everything turns to custard…..

    • David H 6.2
      13 March 2014 at 11:24 am

      Same here what a fucking liar The minister for funny talking is.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.3
      13 March 2014 at 2:28 pm

      If that was in Question Time, as seems to be the case, then there must be a case to have him up on misleading the House.

      • MaxFletcher 6.3.1
        13 March 2014 at 2:36 pm

        Not on a single anecdote. You’d have to canvass the averages.

        • Draco T Bastard 6.3.1.1
          13 March 2014 at 6:05 pm

          I’ve seen in the MSM that power prices are going up between 7% and 24% across the nation. Still, the canvassing wouldn’t be that hard – there’s not that many retailers after all.

  7. phillip ure 7
    13 March 2014 at 8:05 am

    if you want exclamation marks..

    ..how about the extra $700 a year the poorest forced onto pre-paid power by their supplier have to pay the power company run by jenny shipley..

    ..(she really has made a life-long career of screwing over the poorest as much as she can..

    ..that shipley..eh..?.)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2014/former-prime-minister-jenny-shipley-heads-power-company-that-rips-offprofiteers-from-the-poorest-new-zealanders/

    phillip ure..

    • Lanthanide 7.1
      13 March 2014 at 9:27 am

      It’s weird, because Powershop effectively have pre-paid power, and they don’t charge anything extra. In fact, pre-paid power from Powershop is likely to be slightly cheaper than any post-paid power you might buy from them.

      • cricklewood 7.1.1
        13 March 2014 at 10:48 am

        Dunno how it works now but in a flat long ago we had one of the early versions of prepaid power with the swipe card, The machine was fairly unreliable to the point we had a direct dial to the technician who had to come out at all hours and reset it. I have a vague memory of letters indicating higher pre pay prices due to increased servicing costs and providing 24 hour access to top ups….

      • MaxFletcher 7.1.2
        13 March 2014 at 10:55 am

        I’m with Powershop and am very satisfied with the service I receive

  8. Not a PS Staffer 8
    13 March 2014 at 8:42 am

    Steven Joyce will receive a lot of focus when Collins resigns/gets fired shortly.

    As the only heir apparent the National Party succession will become clearer to the general public.

    It is an opportunity for Labour to portray uncertainty and to contract popular/suave Key with four o’clock shadow/boring Joyce.

  9. bad12 9
    13 March 2014 at 8:48 am

    Slippery the Prime Minister publicly rebuking Judith Collins over the fact that She has been less than open with the ‘truth’ surrounding Her Ministerial visit to China???,

    Smacks of the big fish telling the little fish ”stop stealing the lime-light, it is my role to make fools of the press and public and anyway my Lies are better than yours”…

  10. Arthur 10
    13 March 2014 at 8:49 am

    “One friend in a lifetime is much; two are many; three are hardly possible”.

    Henry Brooks Adams.

    He never met Judith.

  11. freedom 11
    13 March 2014 at 9:12 am

    every problem has a solution

    http://i.imgur.com/opMconr.jpg

  12. JustLikeTigerWoods 12
    13 March 2014 at 9:18 am

    “UNLESS SOMETHING HUGELY DRAMATIC HAPPENS between now and polling day, 20 September, the General Election of 2014 is all but over. The National-led government of Prime Minister, John Key, looks set to be returned for a third term by a margin that may surprise many of those currently insisting that the result will be very close. What may also surprise is the sheer scale and comprehensiveness of the Left’s (especially Labour’s) electoral humiliation.”

    A little early, Chris, but your analysis is sound. Unless something major happens, the left, particularly Labour, will be decimated.

    Jones looking good, tho…

    • risildowgtn 12.1
      13 March 2014 at 9:29 am

      oops here you go. you get what you wish for i guess ha ha ha

      How it unfolded
      • 2010: Businessman Donghua Liu granted NZ citizenship by Nathan Guy, the then-Minister of Internal Affairs, against official advice after being lobbied by Maurice Williamson, Minister of Building and Construction, and John Banks, the Auckland Mayor at the time.
      • 2011: Mr Williamson and Prime Minister John Key attend the opening of the first stage of Mr Liu’s $70 million redevelopment in Newmarket, Auckland.
      • 2012: Roncon Pacific Hotel Management Holdings Ltd — of which Mr Liu is a director — makes a $22,000 donation to the National Party.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11218598

      • Cancerman 12.1.1
        13 March 2014 at 3:25 pm

        Labour had already granted him P.R. though, which kind of blunts that attack. Did they receive any donations?

    • freedom 12.2
      13 March 2014 at 9:30 am

      “UNLESS SOMETHING HUGELY DRAMATIC HAPPENS”

      Like journalists doing their job ?
      Like interviewers listening to the answers ?
      Like the Media telling the truth ?

      yeah that would be hugely dramatic

      but the left is grabbing those reigns back anyway, don’t worry about that

    • bad12 12.3
      13 March 2014 at 9:36 am

      Judith Collins humiliated after being less than forthcoming with the truth, Slippery the Prime Minister humiliated on TV3’s ‘the Nation’ and then again on the 6 o’clock news exposed as a hypocrite over secret 5 grand donations as the ‘price’ of a dinner,

      3 days later again the PM is humiliated caught out telling the press ‘less than the truth’ while He tried in vain to defend Collins,

      Dramatic enough for you???…

      • JustLikeTigerWoods 12.3.1
        13 March 2014 at 9:53 am

        Not really.

        Collins has been stupid, certainly. Granting of citizenship never affected Labour. So, beltway issues.

        Elections are won on back-pocket factors, and whether people like the party leader. Everything else is chattering classes politi-geek fluff.

        Something Trotter understands.

        • phillip ure 12.3.1.1
          13 March 2014 at 11:04 am

          grr..!!..i have to agree with tiger woods..

          ..and/but he is really only strengthening the case that labour have to produce policies that will make that disengaged one million voters want to urge those all around them to go out and vote for labour..

          ..and as tiger woods confirmed..

          ..that has to be a poverty-busting/’back-pocket’ package of policies..

          ..only that will guarantee victory..

          ..(don’t forget how key came to power..

          ..he promised big back-pocket policies/tax-cuts..

          ..learn from that..

          ..and offer to the middle-class/workers/poor..

          ..what key promised the rich/middle-class..

          ..to put a significant more into their ‘back-pockets’..)

          ..phillip ure..

          • Jackal 12.3.1.1.1
            13 March 2014 at 1:38 pm

            Yes, elections are won on back-pocket factors…like mortgages and power bills being more expensive. I think JustLikeTigerWoods optimism about National’s chances is unfounded.

            • phillip ure 12.3.1.1.1.1
              13 March 2014 at 1:50 pm

              hello jackal..where have u been..?

              ..and i agree tiger is getting a tad carried away..

              ..and labour/left could well scrape in..

              ..if the sleaze/hubris continues to build for/from national…

              ..this will help this happen..

              ..but i would contend that winning an election with a serious mandate to get on with it..

              .means labour/with the support of the greens..

              ..must promise those poverty-busting ‘back pocket’ policies to get that one million out and voting..

              ..to ensure that mandate..

              phillip ure..

              • Jackal …
                13 March 2014 at 2:19 pm

                Hi phillip ure. I’ve been trying to ignore politics, mainly because of the current bunch of idiots in power. National simply cannot be reasoned with, mainly because they’re removed from reality and so caught up in their own bullshit that they wouldn’t now the truth to save themselves.

        • North 12.3.1.2
          13 March 2014 at 11:30 am

          Thank you for your hopeful (s)p(l)utter @ 12.3.1 just…woods.

          Are you so sure ?

          Check out Disraeli Galdstone @ 1 on “Scandals” – link below.

          http://thestandard.org.nz/scandals/#comment-785328

          Would pay to keep in mind that it was Trotter on election night television in 2005 I think, who in highly animated and excited style, 45 minutes after the polls closed, proclaimed the demise of Helen Clark’s government. Hang on…… government highly animated

          • JustLikeTigerWoods 12.3.1.2.1
            13 March 2014 at 12:06 pm

            2005? That’s your example?

            I think Trotter is premature, but his reasoning is correct. It’s the basic, big picture stuff that wins elections.

            Labour aren’t proposing anything better for most, and their leader doesn’t resonate.

            • freedom 12.3.1.2.1.1
              13 March 2014 at 12:38 pm

              “big picture stuff ”
              if the public were actually being shown or told or even winked at about the big picture National would never get near the ninth floor ever again

            • North 12.3.1.2.1.2
              13 March 2014 at 12:47 pm

              Yeah well you go with that but would be unwise to overlook that Trotter’s analysis was concluded before the emergence today of the quintessential “back-pocket” issue, the cash rate.

              Indeed for many it’s more than a “back-pocket” issue. It’s a backyard-issue, viz. an issue touching the very retention of said backyard by those seduced by Smile and Wave into believing in Cargo Cult and Brighter Future.

              What’s the public mood going to be like when those who think they’ve lived the Brighter Future courtesy of the best and nicest PM in our history find they simply can’t meet the cost of it ? And they lose it. What will their relatives say ?

              While at the same time there’s a powerful reflection that the high end of town continues to advance its wealth and power. Clay feet are still clay no matter they’re increasingly well shod.

              Forget the bullshit that National absolutely and historically triumphed in the last election. That’s theistic fantasy. Defections in the mere thousands will see them done for. The increasing appearance of Smile & Wave & Invoice with increased wealth and power in the hands of many fewer will lead to reprisal.

              • JustLikeTigerWoods …
                13 March 2014 at 12:57 pm

                Perhaps you live your life surrounded by the disenfranchised, which distorts your view.

                The polls tell you the truth about what most New Zealanders think. Most are happy with the direction of the country, and most like Key. Labour are down to base levels and Cunliffe’s not even popular amongst Labour voters.

                “Most” wins elections.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  13 March 2014 at 1:16 pm

                  Surrounding yourself with the top 5% is what fucks a person’s view IMO.

                • North …
                  13 March 2014 at 2:57 pm

                  I can sure see “most” who can’t fathom how to meet for a start an extra $60-$80 per week on their mortgage when they’re bloody hard pressed already, being mostly happy. Yeah…….so mostly happy that they’re just gonna chuckle admiringly and say – “Gee, I’d love to have a beer with that great guy…….”

                  Get real. As the worry and the fear sets in and then the pain hits and mortgagee sales take on a roll, ShonKey Python’s repute will really start to reflect his first name. The heist conceived by the movers and shakers of the National Party and their foreign advisers almost immediately Labour was elected in 1999 is about to be exposed.

                  There is vast electoral power out there Woods. You know it. Your ‘ace’ is that Cunliffe’s just not up to the challenge. In fact as of today it’s your only argument. That “back-pocket” is ready to bite many bums and ShonKey’s as a consequence.

                  We’ll see. To me it’s simple science. Leaking vaccums always get filled. ShonKey Python is an increasingly empty vessel personally who is a visibly nasty piece of work under pressure. Couple that with Smile & Wave taking on the appearance of Smile & Wave & Invoice – it just gets worse. Whom, leaving me in the shit with my Brighter Future dreams in tatters, will profit from buying the house I lose for example ? Speculators, the high end of town. ShonKey Python people.

                  Yes, I live not far from and work in a town where the average annual income is round $17,000. I work in a job where daily I see the gross reflections of that vicious deprivation. Of course it affects, I say informs, my view. Push the fact of it, even the subjective perception of it further and further up the ladder – ShonKey Python has real problems. The arrogant, entitled, suspect crew accompanying him, and for that matter even the fabulousness of a royal tour (the effete obseqious royal courtier fiddling with vast wealth and privilege while Rome burns) will not help.

                  I don’t know the figure off the top of my head so please you or someone else tell me. How many thousands of votes cast for the Left bloc rather than the Right bloc in 2011 would have seen ShonKey Python back in the US a very unremarkable one term PM. ?

                  Many many people will ditch ridiculous theism about ShonKey Python. The man was a massive fraud from the start.

        • bad12 12.3.1.3
          13 March 2014 at 12:37 pm

          Official Cash Rate at 3.75 by the end of the year, that’s something in the order of an extra 160 bucks a week on a 300 grand mortgage by the end of this year across the vast mortgage belt in the bigger cities,

          If that aint dramatically ‘back-pocket’ enough for you, how bout the proposed OCR rate at the end of 2015 of 4.75 which adds yet another hundy to a 300,000 dollar mortgage,

          Should we be so terribly unlucky and have a National Government still occupying the Treasury Benches i would suggest that interest rates biting those ‘back pockets’ in such a manner will have that Party polling at 20% again….

          • Colonial Viper 12.3.1.3.1
            13 March 2014 at 12:51 pm

            The Tory formula for countering this is very well known, just set up another speculative expansionary property bubble.

            Yes your mortgage is $500 more a month, but when your house is “worth” $2500 more a month, what’s the problem? Sounds like a ‘good deal’ for the homeowner…

            • JustLikeTigerWoods 12.3.1.3.1.1
              13 March 2014 at 1:08 pm

              Those I know are happy with their lot. They’re fine paying for welfare and the rest, but know there will always be the piss-takers, over-breeders, and cretins bleating about their self-imposed lot. Yawn. They’ll always be with us. Best ignored.

              The bolly is flowing, The lolly is increasing. Seize the days, chaps.

              • Colonial Viper …
                13 March 2014 at 1:14 pm

                We need an electorate ready to guarantee full time work to everyone who wants it, not just pay for welfare.

              • North …
                13 March 2014 at 3:16 pm

                Woods proving my point with an ugly “Fuck You” caraciture. Ironically, as of today it will catch on even faster. Watch your hubris there mate.

          • JustLikeTigerWoods 12.3.1.3.2
            13 March 2014 at 1:00 pm

            LabGreen have no credible alternative. They’re promising to spend more, and the Australian is promising to print more.

            That’s not going to do the OCR much good, is it.

            • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 12.3.1.3.2.1
              13 March 2014 at 1:23 pm

              “the LabGreen have no credible alternative.” – Just Like Tiger Woods

              You are quite right Tiger – the Labour/Greens have no credible alternative – National/Act are not a credible alternative to what the Labour/Greens are offering.

              • McFlock …
                13 March 2014 at 1:46 pm

                heh

              • JustLikeTigerWoods …
                13 March 2014 at 2:00 pm

                The nation thinks otherwise. LabGreen are just not as popular, and their leader is not well liked.

                • McFlock …
                  13 March 2014 at 2:09 pm

                  If the election result were a certainty, you wouldn’t need to try so hard.

                  Key’s problem is that while they could throw the “don’t you know who I am” nobody under the bus, the apparently-corrupt ministers are too big for him to do that. So they’ll hang around and fester.

                  But we’ll all know for sure at the end of September.

                  • JustLikeTigerWoods …
                    13 March 2014 at 2:57 pm

                    Not trying hard at all. That’s National’s problem – complacency in the face of a deeply unpopular opposition.

                    • McFlock …
                      13 March 2014 at 3:21 pm

                      Ah, so you suffer from a lack of effort rather than gross incompetence. You must be one of the more highly-skilled tory spinmerchants, then.

                      National’s problem is also that they can’t fire Adams, Guy and Collins all in one week, even if they had replacements.

                    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) …
                      13 March 2014 at 5:13 pm

                      Oh Tiger, how disappointing- I thought for once you’d got something correct 😀

              • PapaMike …
                13 March 2014 at 2:16 pm

                Blue

                Good comment but am still waiting to hear a concise declaration of the Labour/Greens Election policies – please do you know them ? – then please tell.

                All appears is to remember to hate the NACTS – Key particularly – entirely negative – let go positive.

                • captain hook …
                  13 March 2014 at 3:00 pm

                  the simple fact of the matter is that nationals one and only plank was that it was their turn. well the’ve had their turn and stolen as much as they could from the treasury and now they are about to be booted out.

                • JustLikeTigerWoods …
                  13 March 2014 at 3:01 pm

                  Their policy appears to be “hate on Key”

                  If Dave can come up with a few policies that lift the well-being of the lower classes whilst not robbing the middle and upper classes to do it, he might turn things around.

                  The middle and upper aren’t going to vote for any more tax gouging. Labour need to go away and come up with some new ideas, not a re-run of Muldoonism.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke …
                    13 March 2014 at 3:05 pm

                    Who said anything about raising the tax rate for middle income earners?

                    I doubt you can manage substantive criticism, which explains your pathological need to make up strawmen.

                    • JustLikeTigerWoods …
                      13 March 2014 at 3:11 pm

                      Whatever. We own the gaff.

                    • McFlock …
                      13 March 2014 at 3:24 pm

                      No you don’t.

                      You’ve been lent it for a few years, and soon the true owners will be reconsidering their choice. And you have no friends to help you borrow the gaff for another three years.

                    • Tracey …
                      13 March 2014 at 3:28 pm

                      You dont own it but you are selling it, in a myriad of ways, to the highest bidder… your lot are stealing the future of young and as yet unborn kiwis.

                    • phillip ure …
                      13 March 2014 at 4:12 pm

                      @tracey..

                      plus 1

                      phillip ure..

                    • JustLikeTigerWoods …
                      13 March 2014 at 5:36 pm

                      Yeah, we do.

                      30 years of Rogernomics. Life is mighty fine. Join in. It’s pretty easy once you get the hang of it. Helen and Michael at least got that….

                      Or stick with failed ideology in the dead hope that people will vote for a return to Muldoonism, Unionism and a crumbling South Pacific version of Venezuela.

                    • McFlock …
                      13 March 2014 at 7:14 pm

                      and all we have to do to “join in” is not care when children die.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      13 March 2014 at 7:23 pm

                      …and not listen to the IMF and their meddling reality check.

                    • JustLikeTigerWoods …
                      14 March 2014 at 3:06 pm

                      “Won’t anyone think of the children!”

                      No who’s being a caricature….

                      Children aren’t dying. Some suffer the moral and intellectual poverty of their “parent”, of course.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      14 March 2014 at 3:21 pm

                      JLTW, it’s time for your reality check.

                      Figure 2.1a

                  • idlegus …
                    13 March 2014 at 4:38 pm

                    “hate on key”, what about the rights “hate on cunliffe” ? more pot calling the kettle black.

                    • JustLikeTigerWoods …
                      13 March 2014 at 5:38 pm

                      More “feel a bit sorry for” than “hate”

                      Cunliffe is not even a contender. Jones is, but you didn’t pick him.

                      That was a bit silly, wasn’t it.

                    • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) …
                      13 March 2014 at 6:04 pm

                      ‘Cunliffe isn’t even a contender’

                      Tiger, If this was so, National would not be spending so much time focussing on ripping him to shreds. The only way they can do so, however, is on shallow and made up points.

                      National do not fight on policy because they know Cunliffe and Labour are stronger than National in that area.

                      National Party’s 3D election strategy: Distract and Deflect so that noone notices what Drongos we are.

                  • North …
                    14 March 2014 at 6:20 am

                    “a re-run of Muldoonism……….” What a joke. I’ll bet that in the day you were just as much a blowhard protagonist for Muldoon as you are today for ShonKey Python.

                • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) …
                  13 March 2014 at 6:23 pm

                  @ PapaMike

                  Labour party principles

                  Issues Labour supports

                  Green party values

                  Green party policy

                  Mana’s principles

                  Mana policies

                  The message I have recieived thus far summarised:
                  The left put people before profit and consider social effects as well as monetary issues. In the medium-to-long run this ends up creating less problems and the country becomes wealthier than when a singular focus on profit for a few (National & Act) is pursued.

                  As well as this:
                  Labour are noting that the wealth gap issue, social mobility and job conditions are being adversely affected by this National government and intend to rectify the situation
                  The Greens include a focus on ensuring the health of the environment with the understanding this positively affects our well-being and economy.
                  Mana includes a focus on Maori issues, realising there is a shortfall in addressing such. They also have a strong focus on prioritising poverty issues and also have a strong anti-corporate stance.

            • Poission 12.3.1.3.2.2
              13 March 2014 at 1:31 pm

              The problems with the OCR response to inflationary house cost (read AK ),is two parts

              a) The absence of rigorous fiscal policy to constrain external interference (read speculators)

              b) The OCR response increases the external interference ie higher interest rates and an appreciating NZ dollar a positive feedback.

              The RBNZ inflationary response mechanism model a DSGE model (which have been around for 30yrs) are both questionable and have not passed the smell test eg Solow

              The protagonists of this idea make a claim to respectability by asserting that it is
              founded on what we know about microeconomic behavior,but I think that this claim is generally phony. The advocates no doubt believe what they say, but they seem to have stopped sniffing or to have lost their sense of smell altogether

              http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/research_and_publications/research_programme/additional_research/kitt/

              https://web.archive.org/web/20110204034313/http://democrats.science.house.gov/Media/file/Commdocs/hearings/2010/Oversight/20july/Solow_Testimony.pdf

              The major constraint on the DGSE model is its inablity to forecast anything.

              • Colonial Viper …
                13 March 2014 at 1:33 pm

                Reality itself is a major constraint on the theoretically bankrupt DGSE model, but it doesn’t stop the bloody economists and governments from using it to make macro-economic decisions.

                • JustLikeTigerWoods …
                  13 March 2014 at 5:54 pm

                  Always the same with the left.

                  “It’ll be different this time! We’ll tax the cr*p out of everything and hand money to poor people, and it will all be great!”

                  No. No it won’t. It will be a Venezuela-level disaster, minus the oil. Left-wing ideology destroys the very incentives needed to generate the wealth to pay for the state services. Even Marx got that….

                  You need new ideas. The left needs an economic rebirth. Your old ideas are failed, rejected and will never return from the deep 70’s pit in which they are long buried.

                  Forget the rich pr*cks and redundant class war. Your real enemy is lack of productivity. Solve that problem and you’ll really be onto something, because I’m not sure the right know the answer to that question, either.

                  • geoff …
                    13 March 2014 at 10:43 pm

                    @Tiger

                    You don’t understand how substantial income inequality effects the economy and you don’t understand how progressive tax systems work to ameliorate those negative effects.

                    You don’t understand how the relationship between human capital and technological capital has forever changed the landscape of industrial relations.

                    You avoid the well documented effects of multinational corporations playing the system in a way which is impossible for regular citizens.

                    You cling to bogus arguments like low productivity which I find particularly amusing because the rightwing industrial relations and low tax policy which you champion are precisely the causes of a weak economy.

                    An economy can only be strong if the vast majority of people engage in it and benefit from the surpluses generated within it. Low/flat tax rates and no rights for workers has created a system with a few super wealthy people and a decimated middle class which actually isn’t very good for aggregate demand.

                    Did you even realise that?

                    The central irony is that rightwing muppets always advocate for ‘growing the pie’ but their short sighted greed for short term profits means they end up implementing policies which shrink the pie.
                    If you were honest then your true motto would be ‘I believe in fucking the economy so that I can have an ever increasing slice of an ever diminishing pie’

                    You claim your opponents are stuck in the 70’s but you appear to be stuck in the 20’s. Perhaps you should study up on what happened to the world economy the last time Laissez Faire economic theory was followed through with…

                    • Arfamo …
                      13 March 2014 at 11:10 pm

                      +1. Very good. David Cunliffe please note. This is how to say it (maybe without the “f” word). 🙂

                    • JustLikeTigerWoods …
                      14 March 2014 at 9:45 am

                      The middle class has been decimated, but not by “the wealthy”. It’s due to a) technology and b) tax structures destroying savings and investment

                      We have low capital allocation per worker. Why? Partly poor management and partly because it doesn’t pay to invest in them (tax structures).

                      Technology has replaced a lot of jobs. It’s now eating into the middle class. To counter this, we need to use that very technology to increase productivity. This generates the surplus necessary for a high wage society.

                      We don’t get that way by endless redistributing and fighting a phoney class war. That is last century’s battle. This century’s battle is firstly understand that technology replaces labour, then understand the way to leverage that technology is to invest in workers.

                      The right doesn’t have the answer either, but at least they understand the incentives. The left would redistribute and shrink away to nothing. Why? They take capital and force it into consumption. Consumption is not what we need. Savings and investment, and allocation of capital into labour productivity is what we need.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      14 March 2014 at 3:53 pm

                      And in this New Zealand, right now, you think the best way to deliver this is what exactly?

                      Please give examples of countries that have adopted your prescriptions, as well as examples of countries that you think we should emulate, so we can check how they did it.

  13. greywarbler 13
    13 March 2014 at 9:19 am

    One publication had a regular column called Felicity Ferret where little titbits were published of an interesting nature.

    What about us having a Willy the Weta? I think I heard a whisper that someone in government is going to produce a glossy booklet on where to dine in Beijing and New York.
    The quiet places where you don’t get spotted having dinner with your friends in useful places.

  14. Mary 14
    13 March 2014 at 11:03 am

    Our mental health system has been run so far into the ground that people needing help must resort to crime in order to get the support needed:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9823109/Woman-desperate-to-be-jailed

    • marty mars 14.1
      13 March 2014 at 4:15 pm

      A terrible and sad story that one – I hope she gets the help she wants and needs. If we cannot (and I don’t think we can) look after the most vulnerable in society we fail them and ourselves.

  15. Enough is Enough 15
    13 March 2014 at 11:07 am

    This government has no idea on how to manage an economy.

    Here come the rate rises. Everyone is going to start feeling the pinch now as mortgage rates sky rocket over the next 12 months.

    You have National to thank for that.

  16. tricledrown 16
    13 March 2014 at 12:18 pm

    Lost his mojo just like tiger woods.
    Chris trotter is dog whistling the left into action .

  17. phillip ure 17
    13 March 2014 at 12:38 pm

    “..10 famous geniuses and their drugs of choice..

    ..Is intelligence related to an increased likelihood of recreational drug use?..”

    http://www.salon.com/2013/08/16/10_famous_geniuses_who_used_drugs_and_were_better_off_for_it_partner/

    phillip ure..

  18. captain hook 18
    13 March 2014 at 2:07 pm

    spare a thought for the stay at home voter.
    his empty eyes gaze at strange beauty shows.
    A parade of gray suited grafters.
    Lung cancer or polio….

  19. lprent 19
    13 March 2014 at 2:25 pm

    Added “Clarke” to the auto-moderation especially for the fools who mean Helen Clark

    This subtle technique worked for Hooton and the morons with a silent T fetish 😈

  20. Puckish Rogue 20
    13 March 2014 at 3:00 pm

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Russel-Norman-target-of-Shane-Jones-anti-Aussie-rant/tabid/1607/articleID/335636/Default.aspx

    Any chance of getting Shane Jones to defect to National? I’m liking the fire in his belly.

    • North 20.1
      13 March 2014 at 3:23 pm

      PR – sure you’re not talking about the ‘wire’ in his ‘felly’ ?

    • McFlock 20.2
      13 March 2014 at 3:26 pm

      He’d be the least embarrassing member of the current cabinet, that’s for sure.

    • phillip ure 20.3
      13 March 2014 at 4:17 pm

      nah..!..peters/nz first is his natural home..

      ..why doesn’t he go there..?

      ..and succeed peters..?

      ..he’s got a snowballs’ chance in hell of ever leading labour..

      ..most wouldn’t trust him to lead a lolly-scramble..

      ..off ya go..!..shane..!

      ..you’ll find more of yr kind there..!

      ..go on..!

      ..run free..!..

      phillip ure..

    • Colonial Viper 21.1
      13 March 2014 at 4:02 pm

      Every one wants the latest billion dollar vaccine…no one wants to provide potable water and build toilets for the poor…big profits in one but miniscule in the other…typical and predictable.

      • McFlock 21.1.1
        13 March 2014 at 4:42 pm

        no one wants to provide potable water and build toilets for the poor

        I suppose that’s the sort of lie you have to make up to maintain the delusion.

        • greywarbler 21.1.1.1
          13 March 2014 at 5:06 pm

          mcflock what are you on about?

          • McFlock 21.1.1.1.1
            13 March 2014 at 7:04 pm

            meh. What was the quote, how true was it, and what was it supposed to justify.

            • greywarbler 21.1.1.1.1.1
              14 March 2014 at 2:41 pm

              McFlock
              Why couldn’t it be CV talking about his own opinion rather than a quote? He didn’t say it was a quote. He appears to be saying that improvements in provision of good facilities like clean water and toilet systems would go a long way to preventing disease, but there is more interest in giving money to Big Pharma for providing vaccines
              .
              Colonial Viper might enlarge on his comment and clarify. I am reading my expected interpretation into it. But that’s my guess.

              • McFlock …
                14 March 2014 at 4:07 pm

                CV didn’t quote a thing.
                I did.

                His comment was untrue.

                • greywarbler …
                  14 March 2014 at 7:54 pm

                  You’re too smart for me. Adieu.

                  • Ergo Robertina …
                    14 March 2014 at 8:16 pm

                    It is not that he is smarter. McFlock has a fervent belief the Big Pharma model is inherently superior, therefore he dismisses those who challenge it as lacking evidence, without bothering to provide any evidence himself.

                    • McFlock …
                      15 March 2014 at 3:29 pm

                      not big pharma.
                      Vaccines are superior to leaving diseases to sread normally, hygiene or no.

                      Evidence: small pox rates. Polio rates. MMR rates. And so on.

                • weka …
                  14 March 2014 at 8:02 pm

                  “His comment was untrue.”

                  No it wasn’t. It was hyperbole for sure, but the implied message is true. Or are you suggesting that pharmaceutical companies aren’t driven by profit and greed, and are really just in business for the good of the world?

                  • McFlock …
                    15 March 2014 at 3:37 pm

                    Oh I’m sorry, what was the “implied message”? That pharmacy companies aren’t water infrastructure companies? Or that measles is a waterborne disease like cholera?

                    Because many of the same agencies that fund vac programs in the developing world also fund water programs.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      15 March 2014 at 4:00 pm

                      The implied message is really a lament over the fact we allow governments to funnel billions to pharmaceutical companies, rather than into top-notch infrastructure.
                      Ultimately it is our choice how we allocate resources, but the excessive influence of pharmaceutical companies garners them a disproportionate amount of that resource, and that is why people are concerned.

                    • McFlock …
                      15 March 2014 at 4:06 pm

                      So now you’re widening “potable water and build toilets” to general infrastructure?

                      I mean, that “implied message” is untrue too (e.g. road building projects in developing nations), but I just want to see if you’re shifting the goalposts.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      15 March 2014 at 4:18 pm

                      Thing is, we’re talking past each other, because you see pharmaceutical companies as altruistic organisations seeking to improve public health, whereas in my view they are corporations that have a place, but their influence is hugely disproportionate.

                    • McFlock …
                      15 March 2014 at 4:36 pm

                      You think I give a damn about companies.
                      I don’t.
                      I just like the vaccines. They save lives.

                    • northshoredoc …
                      15 March 2014 at 4:36 pm

                      Just to remind you all the first comment in this thread was.

                      “Anyone else wondering why so many cases of measles amongst the already vaccinated for measles?….”

                      CV then attempted to threadjack with

                      “Every one wants the latest billion dollar vaccine…no one wants to provide potable water and build toilets for the poor…big profits in one but miniscule in the other…typical and predictable.”

                      As he is fairly vehemently anti vaccination and didn’t want to address the original question which was fallacious.

                      Vaccines such as MMR are not big money spinners for pharma companions as they are usually only one or two vaccinations over a persons entire lifetime.

    • weka 21.3
      13 March 2014 at 8:23 pm

      You need to get better sources Chooky. Naturalnews is not a reliable source of information. Scheibner doesn’t look that useful either, although ironically, the wikipedia article that northshore links to is also very poor.

      • northshoredoc 21.3.1
        13 March 2014 at 8:41 pm

        Really ? I thought for a 5 second google search it was a pretty good summary of how enormous a nut Viera Scheibner is, she’s really barking mad.

        • weka 21.3.1.1
          13 March 2014 at 9:22 pm

          Maybe she is, but you just did exactly what Chooky did, which was pull some shit off the internet to support your own view, and present it as evidence, when it’s actually a poor source of information. Like I said, ironic.

          • Zorr 21.3.1.1.1
            13 March 2014 at 10:19 pm

            This will be much more useful:
            http://freethoughtblogs.com/amilliongods/2013/05/01/viera-scheibners-quick-points-a-rebuttal/

            Also when your links claim “evidence” but don’t actually link through to any form of data or peer-reviewed research, what they are actually doing is claiming anecdata

            • weka 21.3.1.1.1.1
              13 March 2014 at 11:05 pm

              The link you just provided doesn’t link through to any form of data or peer-reviewed research. Are you suggesting that that blogpost was written from anecdata?

              Not trying to be smart here, and as I said I think Chooky’s links aren’t useful, but let’s hold all sides of the argument to a certain standard.

              • Avicenna …
                14 March 2014 at 6:35 am

                Actually, I am quoting the papers mentioned on her blog.

                It’s simple. Vaccination works. The discussion is over. We have proven it works. We have eliminated a lot of childhood killers with them.

                She pretends to be a “real Doctor” of medicine (She’s a doctor of Paleontology) and flogs fake physiology.

                She and her followers could not even explain the basics of human immunity. She is a quack and a quack whose beliefs have killed children.

                • weka …
                  14 March 2014 at 9:47 am

                  Avicenna, I don’t have a problem with the idea that Scheibner is all the things you say she is. I’m simply pointing out that in this conversation, and others here on ts, there is an irony to the ‘science is the one true way’ argument not meeting its own standards.

                  “Actually, I am quoting the papers mentioned on her blog.”

                  I wasn’t talking about her papers. I was talking about your refutations and statements. Zorr said that claims of evidence need to be backed up (I agree), and I was pointing out that the link Zorr gave didn’t meet their own standard.

                  (am sure your blogpost makes more sense to people that are following your blog generally, and the Scheibner issues, but Zorr dropping it in to this conversation didn’t help clarify in the way implied).

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                14 March 2014 at 6:37 am

                I’m all for that. Let’s use the standard of “which argument has the overwhelmingly gargantuan majority of qualified adherents and evidence to support it?”

                • weka …
                  14 March 2014 at 9:51 am

                  “I’m all for that. Let’s use the standard of “which argument has the overwhelmingly gargantuan majority of qualified adherents and evidence to support it?”

                  I don’t have too much of a problem with that, although it seems prudent, given how many mistakes get made in science, to allow discussions of dissent where there is a good argument made.

                  Vaccination isn’t just a science issue, it’s also about ethics. There are very good reasons why we don’t leave ethics solely to scientists.

              • Chooky …
                14 March 2014 at 9:47 am

                Ok stirred up a hornets nest there…lol..as expected

                sorry weka to let the academic side down ….however it still doesnt answer my question….why are so many people who have been vaccinated against measles still getting them?….would seem simpler to just let kids get measles when they are young and then be imunised for life

                also the older i get the more skeptical i become about some aspects of traditional Western medicine..(.this excludes surgery and intensive hospital care) ….it seems that primary health care is not holistically based and is in the grips of multinational big business and its rigid acolytes…..many traditional childhood viruses can be weathered with appropriate living conditions, as CV says , and careful parental care

                …if I had my time again i dont think i would get the kids immunised

                • weka …
                  14 March 2014 at 9:57 am

                  “sorry weka to let the academic side down”

                  It’s not just about academics though. It’s about basing beliefs on evidence, or at least putting up a good theoretical argument for the belief. That’s the not owned by academics, all of us can do that. Using bad sources of information both makes the situation worse, and doesn’t answer the questions being raised.

                  ” ….however it still doesnt answer my question….why are so many people who have been vaccinated against measles still getting them?”

                  I don’t know because I haven’t looked at what is happening, but vaccinations aren’t all 100% effective, so that would explain some of it.

                  “….would seem simpler to just let kids get measles when they are young and then be imunised for life”

                  The issues here are that some kids die from complications; there is a public health issue because so many people believe that getting ill is inherently bad so if you can prevent it that’s good; now that many people are being vaccinated for measles, most people aren’t getting natural immunity pre-school, so there will be issues of how that affects people in later life (am guessing someone will have done an economic assessment of this); there’s also the issue of both parents working so what happens when the kids get sick (more economics)… etc

                  Myself, I think parents that decide the natural immunity route are entitled to do that, and find the extremity of the everyone should vaccinate argument a pretty interesting dynamic in our society.

                  • Chooky …
                    14 March 2014 at 7:09 pm

                    @ Weka …i feel it is a case of the Emperors Clothes…there is a hierarchy of medical acolytes and statisticians supporting blanket vaccination for all children regardless of the fact that they themselves are financially embedded in a system of support for a multi-billion dollar industry.

                    ……and any parent who dares question blanket vaccination for all childhood viruses is made out to be a “Dunce” or a “Kook”…..someone who is too stupid to know anything about it….when actually parents have observations at the grassroots level of their own children and other children and their families…their empirical and anecdotal evidence is either not admissible or is down graded

                    …..totally ignored also is the fact that there are a number doctors and virologists who have down right reservations, if they are not actually opposed to blanket vaccinations of all children for common childhood viruses

                    ….cases of adverse reactions to vaccination are swept under the carpet , ignored, not counted ..So how valid are the statistics really ?!

                    ( …sorry about your kid but they were sacrificed for the greater good of the herd…No!…sorry this is not good enough!)

                    …there have been a number of medical interventions/drugs which have ‘impeccable’ statistics and were later found to have harmful if not fatal side effects or long term effects

                    ..when considerable pressure is applied to parents to have their children vaccinated there should be some accountablity for vaccination mishaps and compensation paid for medical misadventure….but this would require REAL statistics

                    • northshoredoc …
                      14 March 2014 at 7:30 pm

                      “….cases of adverse reactions to vaccination are swept under the carpet , ignored, not counted ..So how valid are the statistics really ?!”

                      Links please or stop making unfounded and continual disparaging assertions about my profession.

                    • weka …
                      14 March 2014 at 7:49 pm

                      I largely agree with that Chooky 🙂

                      My suggestion is that if you want to address the issues with people here, and you want to use science to do that, then use good science not bad science. If you can’t tell the difference yet, then take some time to learn.

                      The big thing missing from the conversations lately on ts is the non-science stuff that you refer to… where parents make conscious decisions based on a myriad of knowledges, not just hard cold science (or emotive science)… it’s not part of the culture here. I’m not sure it’s possible to have that conversation here, because the people arguing are pretty much dogmatic in their views, and are really only going to respond to science arguments. That’s why I’m more interested in talking about the meta issues – who gets to decide what are useful ways of knowing. Until that gets looked at I think you are banging your head against a brick wall (unless you want to get good at the science).

                • northshoredoc …
                  14 March 2014 at 10:52 am

                  FFS !!!

                  “why are so many people who have been vaccinated against measles still getting them?”

                  Well they’re not, those who have been vaccinated as per MoH guidelines (2 jabs in early childhood) have a 99% chance of being covered should they come into contact with measles. the 1% who have been vaccinated but who aren’t immune have a very high (>90%) chance of developing measles as of course do those who have not been immunised.

                  We immunise against measles because statistics tell us that about one out of 10 children with measles also gets an ear infection, and up to one out of 20 gets pneumonia. About one out of 1,000 gets encephalitis, and one or two out of 1,000 die. These morbidity and mortality data will be worse in 2nd and 3rd world countries.

                  Furthermore in immunocompromised children and adults (those who have been undergoing treatment for cancer for example or transplant recipients) measles is most often very severe, prolonged and often fatal.

                  The recent outbreak at mainly centred on Auckland schools was 100% confined to non vaccinated persons, further more all non vaccinated persons were excluded from school for 3 weeks for their own safety.

                  • weka …
                    14 March 2014 at 11:38 am

                    “We immunise against measles because statistics tell us that about one out of 10 children with measles also gets an ear infection, and up to one out of 20 gets pneumonia. About one out of 1,000 gets encephalitis, and one or two out of 1,000 die. These morbidity and mortality data will be worse in 2nd and 3rd world countries.”

                    Looking at the first world countries, when are those stats for? Post introduction of MMR or before? Is there a difference between unimmunised and immunised complication rates?

                    • weka …
                      14 March 2014 at 11:40 am

                      oh, and what’s the rate in NZ currently of kids getting measles?

                    • northshoredoc …
                      14 March 2014 at 11:49 am

                      “Is there a difference between unimmunised and immunised complication rates”

                      Well yes there is as with only approx 1% of those being immunised being able to develop measles simple mathematics will tell you that there is a significantly decreased risk of complications in the immunised group and before you ask yes even taking into account potential side effects from vaccination itself.

                      Rather than me doing all the work Weka why don’t you do some desktop research yourself.

                      I’ll start you off with the links below.

                      http://www.arphs.govt.nz/health-information/communicable-disease/measles
                      http://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/conditions-and-treatments/diseases-and-illnesses/measles
                      http://www.cdc.gov/measles/
                      http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/measles/Pages/Introduction.aspx
                      http://www.who.int/topics/measles/en/
                      http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/datasheet/m/MMRIIinj.pdf
                      http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?hl=en&q=measles&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C5

                    • weka …
                      14 March 2014 at 12:12 pm

                      Ok, I thought you might just have already known.

                      I’m actually more interested in the meta debate here, which is around validity of argument. Your previous comment would make more sense to me if it was in context. Chooky gets slammed, rightly so, for linking to useless information. But I also see a lot of justification in medical sciences where figures are used out of context, so for me there are problems on that side too (albeit different ones).

                      eg

                      “Is there a difference between unimmunised and immunised complication rates”

                      Well yes there is as with only approx 1% of those being immunised being able to develop measles simple mathematics will tell you that there is a significantly decreased risk of complications in the immunised group and before you ask yes even taking into account potential side effects from vaccination itself.

                      I’m sure that seems quite a reasonable response to you, but for me it’s just obfuscation and I’m unclear why it’s not obvious that I would be wanting comparisons of % not overall rates. So, yes, obviously the numbers of immunised kids who get complications would be way less than non-immunised, because there are less immunised kids getting measles, but that’s not what I was asking. Or are you suggesting that the %s are less too?

                      (what I am asking is what percentage of immunised kids who get measles get complications compared to what percentage of non-immunised kids who get measles get complications).

                      Where you say decreased risk, you are talking about population, which is fine from a public health perspective. What most parents who don’t immunise are interested in is the risk for the individual.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke …
                      14 March 2014 at 12:24 pm

                      Risks of vaccination affect one in fifty thousand. Risks of non-immunisation as listed by the good doctor above, are several orders of magnitude greater.

                    • northshoredoc …
                      14 March 2014 at 1:03 pm

                      “what I am asking is what percentage of immunised kids who get measles get complications compared to what percentage of non-immunised kids who get measles get complications”

                      Weka as far as I know there is no large cohort study that has investigated that question, however this small retrospective study may point us in the direction of an answer that there may be a benefit for those who were vaccinated even if they were not fully immune.

                      https://www.rnzcgp.org.nz/assets/documents/Publications/JPHC/June-2013/JPHCOSPMitchellJune2013.pdf

                    • weka …
                      14 March 2014 at 1:20 pm

                      Thanks doc, much appreciated, will have a look when I get the chance.

                      OAB, not sure if that was a reply to me, but if it was, it misses the point.

                    • McFlock …
                      14 March 2014 at 5:02 pm

                      Chooky gets slammed, rightly so, for linking to useless information. But I also see a lot of justification in medical sciences where figures are used out of context, so for me there are problems on that side too (albeit different ones).

                      Personally, I think that those who make more extraordinary claims require the more exhaustive evidence.

                      Otherwise I’d have to deliver a logical proof as to why “2+2=4” every time I tried to query a bill.

                      The claim “x is a kook” is not half as extraordinary as “vaccination causes autism and is bad for kids”. So I require pretty good reasons to not get vaccinated regularly, but not a huge amount of evidence to decide that X is a kook.

                    • weka …
                      14 March 2014 at 5:16 pm

                      Yes, I can understand that. My problem is that I see lots of shortcuts on the medical science side when people are defending their beliefs, or criticising others, and sometimes mistaktes get made. Bad ones. Leaving vaccination aside for a minute, I see this alot with alternative health care. The point was made above that we should trust the experts, so it’s always weird when scienceheads start denigrating thigns like TCM or herbalism when they have no training or experience in those things. Honest to god, I’ve heard stuff equally as idiotic coming form scienceheads as I have from the alternative crowd.

                      All I’m saying here, is that we could improve the situation by applying standards across the board. Otherwise all that happens is a bitter polarity with each side saying I’m right and you people are a bunch of stupidity. Nothing good comes from that, and things are probably getting worse. The general public has very good reasons to not trust science, and science has good reasons to be concerned about scientific illiteracy. But polarising the issues doesn’t offer a solution.

                      As an aside, re scientific illiteracy, I’ve been noticing in the last while that many wikipedia science articles are far too dense for the general lay reader. Makes me wonder who they are written for, and where people should go to get the basics on any science they are presented with.

                    • weka …
                      14 March 2014 at 5:21 pm

                      “So I require pretty good reasons to not get vaccinated regularly, but not a huge amount of evidence to decide that X is a kook.”

                      also, while I appreciate your general point, the problem there is that it’s easy to call someone a kook as part of marginalising what they are saying. I think Schreibner most likely is a kook, but all that’s been offered today is opinion, so how would I really know? I’m guessing that the reason that others here were willing to go with the wiki link and the blog link was because (a) they perceived the articles as trustworthy and (b) the links supported their already formed ideas. That’s understandable and human, and it’s also dangerous.

                      There is a realy failing with many online science writers, who blog about people or issues to critique them but can’t help but getting lost in their own antipathy, or littering the blogpost with their own person invective. Peopel can write what they liek on their own blog, but if what we want here is clear communication that helps build trust and knowledge, then we need better analyses of what are perceived as problems.

                    • McFlock …
                      14 March 2014 at 7:59 pm

                      Frankly, whenever I end up on a wikipedia article that’s waaaaaaaaaaayyy beyond me (quantum springs to mind), I take it as a hint that maybe I should just take the word of the bulk of people who have spent decades in formalised, structured research in the area. Unless they ping my nutbar meter, of course.

                      Some stuff cannot be explained with any degree of accuracy in a way that somebody just flipping through an encyclopaedia will be able to find useful. I have no real idea of why blood types match or clot, for example. Some stuff just takes years of research to even come close to figuring out, not just data gathering but also actually tryong to learn about it.

                      That’s why we still need universities, rather than giving everyone an internet connection and a wikipedia link.

                    • weka …
                      14 March 2014 at 8:07 pm

                      That might all well be true McFlock, but it’s not what I was talking about. I’m talking about someone going to wiki to find out what a salt is. Or how chemicals bond. Or how x physiology works. I’m not talking quantum mechanics. If lay people in conversations about vaccination or whatever are going to be criticised for scientific illiteracy, then my point stands about wikipedia and finding sources of information that are accessible. The argument that I’m a scientist therefore I know and you don’t therefore you should take my word for… that just fails fucking epically now, given all the mistakes that science has made and the damage that has been done using science. It’s just not going to wash.

                    • McFlock …
                      14 March 2014 at 8:27 pm

                      The scientific illiteracy in the vaccination debate is the belief that because someone said “a vaccine gave my kid autism” it’s plausible enough to be worried about. It’s not that they don’t have perfect knowledge of how to develop a vaccine or the exact diagnostic criteria of disorders on the autism spectrum.

                      Just because “science has made mistakes” doesn’t mean that Jenny McCarthy or Scheibner deserve the time of day.

  22. Chooky 22
    13 March 2014 at 4:06 pm

    +100 CV……Yes you are correct as usual…the answer is very simple

  23. ianmac 23
    13 March 2014 at 4:53 pm

    Anyone notice that Winston has questioned Collins about the border man at her dinner and was he there to expedite the importation of the milk at a time when imports were held up at the wharf.

  24. The Al1en 24
    13 March 2014 at 5:13 pm

    A little bottom of the page anonymous update to my current employment situation.

    It’s been a tough few weeks this side of orbit.
    5 days after my 20/2 post I was assaulted by my boss at work, twice. I was jabbed in the hand with a pitch fork, fortunately only leaving a small scratch, and a few minutes later, dumped on to my back in the middle of the car park and when I complained about my bad back (recovering very slowly from a prolapsed nerve) lifted and dropped on to it again. I called 111 and left work, went to make a complaint, only to be told my 100% perfect record would also be compromised if I submitted it formally, so I left it at that.

    My brief was on holiday for the week, but I went to his office to seek assistance any way, only to be told my bosses people had already been on threatening me with suspension, which I was already told by my boss was going to happen before he assaulted me. After returning home to email my guy with my account, I went to the doctors on an emergency appointment, where he noted my injuries and placed me on medication – Citalopram, Zopiclone and Diazepam, which I have been taking since. He also, kindly, hooked me up with counselling, of which I have had one session so far.

    My suspension email came through the next day, luckily on pay, and when my lawyer returned, he notified them that the only contract signed by both parties has no provision for suspension, but I would voluntarily remain ‘suspended’ until emergency mediation could be arranged. Between then and now, my boss has rung my daughters school, speaking to the principal, stating he had laid me off and that he had concerns about my parenting that my ex wife should know about. She rang my ex who clearly bothered, returned his call, only to hear no concerns raised, just badgered for information regarding me, our break up and my previous era incidents. My ex saw through him, and despite no love lost between us, kindly noted the conversation, adding I’m a good father, which was passed to my legal team.

    At mediation today, which resolved nothing, his lawyer presented statements from an eye witness which my boss couldn’t have written better himself. The witness is a sub tenant at the place of work and is ridiculous as it is made up, containing statements such as “*** threw himself on the floor and called out ***** had hurt his back” and how she’d heard parts of our conversation when she wasn’t present. I’m hoping cctv footage still exists to prove me right, but under oath I wouldn’t guarantee the witness to hold to the story. He has two other statements from another tenant and one of their staff, and they are mostly right, though sadly not witnesses to the assault.

    Much has been made by his brief of my past era visits and how they will go against me, as they are painting me as a gold digger, but if I were, I would have taken him to the cleaners in 2013 (I think) when he tried to get me to sign a clause in a new contract saying I wouldn’t weed spray his stock if I were sacked, which I was supposed to have said to another staff member at the time. I rang the D.O.L and visited the local Labour party office, before returning on a Thursday morning (a day off) and telling him how my three month fixed term, trial period, rolled over for a year and a half contract was bull, that I have him bang to rights, and he’d best get busy writing a much better contract. Next day he called me and apologised, saying he’d got it wrong, he’d sort it on Monday and not to worry over the weekend, to which I replied I wasn’t. I never got a new contract, or took his money, settling on being treated with respect and a pair of new $40 warehouse works boots. I think I made a post here about it, but bugger it if I’ll search for it today.

    I will not return to work for fears to my safety and mental health, so I have a disciplinary hearing set for next Wednesday when I will be dismissed, losing my 20 hour $15 per hour and WFF tax credits and top up, for gross misconduct.

    I’m beat up and a bit of a mess right now, but I’m strong. I will get a covenant put on my house and get legal aid to fight this perve at full hearing. Odds not stacked in my favour it must be said, but right is right, right?

  25. Chooky 25
    13 March 2014 at 7:11 pm

    @ Allen…sounds like your ex boss is a psychopath…it is always a shock when you come up against such people …and sometimes you have to walk away

    ….sounds like you are doing everything correctly by taking it to the authorities…try and get as much outside support as possible from individuals, friends , professionals and organisations and unions that deal with such issues and try not to take it personally …accept any help where it is offered …the more help you get the less personal stress on yourself.

    • The Al1en 25.1
      13 March 2014 at 8:06 pm

      lol @ ex boss a week before the fact, though like I didn’t know that was happening after I pulled him up for being a dirty old man, took two weeks off and returned to the four page legal letter with eight hours notice to get representation before a planned hearing the next day.

      Best thing is it won’t be kept secret at the hearing, so win, lose or draw you’ll be able to read it in the papers. It won’t be my refusal to follow (un)reasonable demands and trumped up floor flinging and self hand stabbing (yes, really accused of that as his defence), but all about his sexual harassment.

      I don’t have a large support group, what with being the only al1en in the village, but I’ll make use of what I have closest and what’s on offer from the quacks. A nasty(er) lawyer wouldn’t go amiss, but I’ll settle for a good nights kip for starters. 🙂

      • The Al1en 25.1.1
        14 March 2014 at 9:09 am

        Marzipans and zohans free, with no pharm script repeats available, a bit of a clearer head this morning 🙂

        I think I will take the risk to my record and formalise my assault complaint with the police today. I had a clean police check when I was granted residency back in 2000, and I’ve had no dealings with them here since, not even a parking ticket.
        If after being stabbed in the hand, I, a couple of minutes later, when told again that he’d say I did it myself, took a note book from my bosses shirt, before being bundled to the ground and dominated, gets me arrested and charged, then so be it. Worth it if the ‘eye witness’ has to be interviewed by a uniform. Lying in a statement to era is one thing, to a rozzer, another altogether. They can check for cctv footage while they’re at it, as my lawyer seems incapable of making the request for it.

        Takes it out of my hands, my bosses control and shares the stress about a bit.

        Next time I report in, I might be an official note book pinching villain – Oh the shame of it. What will mother say? 🙂

        • greywarbler 25.1.1.1
          14 March 2014 at 1:57 pm

          Good luck with that Allen. Just remember never say too much, just enough to make your point, and don’t get chatty, don’t talk about anything that isn’t completely relevant, not about your feelings if not relevant, not look at someone contemptuously or arrogantly. Just be self-contained and stick to your point firmly, answering appropriate questions. You don’t want to say the wrong word or term that plugs into whatever incipient prejudice that waits to pop up in the minds of the authority or powerful one you are dealing with.

          • The Al1en 25.1.1.1.1
            14 March 2014 at 4:29 pm

            Thanks for that, all good advice duly noted, though not always easy under some circumstances and conditions, but I’ll do me best.
            I work on telling the truth, and if you lie once, you’re out. One slip up by his ‘witnesses’ and it’s all over. Don’t lie and you can’t be caught out… As all politicians should note 🙂

            Not been in to the cops yet as I’m waiting on a conversation with my brief before going in, but he did mail me saying he has requested complete records from commencement of my employment, including for each pay period, holiday/leave taken and sick leave taken and any accruals.
            Knowing my boss hasn’t got any records for any of his staff, including me, he has been informed that as we would expect in light of the legal requirements surrounding the keeping of records that this information is readily available and therefore would expect it without delay, if not received by the close of business today, it will be referred to a Labour inspector for further investigation.

            A bit of mongrel in my guy after all. More of it, please.

  26. greywarbler 26
    13 March 2014 at 7:21 pm

    Morgan Kelly Economist in Ireland
    Good quote –
    The Irish Government boasts about its lack of policy.
    They have raised purposelessness to a high art.
    http://www.thejournal.ie/morgan-kelly-joan-burton-smes-1352622-Mar2014/

    Sound familiar.
    Also
    Educational research is mostly crap.
    Dumbing down education means that kids will learn less.
    Universities have gone out of their way to shoot themselves in the foot.
    Irish universities used to provide ok education with run-down facilities and poor administration. This has changed now, there are many administrators.
    Research has to be competed for.
    Administrators earn as much as lecturers.
    Austerity has kicked in and the number of academics has fallen by 20%. And that has caused international rankings to fall. They are not worth much but they do seem to matter.
    Graduates are not well-trained and therefore it screws up the future to the Irish recovery.

  27. Draco T Bastard 27
    13 March 2014 at 8:29 pm

    Going to WINZ for help is no longer, well, helpful:

    I was incredibly nervous about the appointment. It’s pretty difficult to walk into this place when you have no idea how you’re going to be treated, and when their role is not to help you, as it would appear, but actually do all they possibly can to get you back into work – even if that’s to your detriment.

    Did you know, WINZ has an actual policy to publicly celebrate when people get work? I witnessed this today. A bell was rung, and all the workers stood up and clapped – meanwhile, the poor man who supposedly the happy recipient of this “positive reinforcement” sat still and looked utterly and completely mortified. Apparently WINZ says clients enjoy this.

    It was fucking horrifying.

    Going to WINZ is now torture which, last time I looked, was against the Geneva Conventions.

    • Tigger 27.1
      13 March 2014 at 8:41 pm

      It’s the sort of thing someone has read is a good idea. It has the stink of ‘theory’ about it with no common sense to back it up. It might work in some places but not our self effacing nation.

      If it was me being applauded I’d just feel embarrassed.

    • The Al1en 27.2
      13 March 2014 at 8:41 pm

      How work and income and times have changed. When I had my last leaving meet with winz back in 2011, they asked me if I wanted to ring the bell. Now they employ someone to ring the bell for you.

      All those kids forced into lofts at minimum wage and under houses as part of the old insulation program, should band together with the national cycle way builders and form an orderly queue for the job when the office security guard needs his biscuit dunking at tea time.

      And no, I didn’t ding. I threw a look of contempt at the case manager instead. Much more satisfying 😉

    • Draco T Bastard 27.3
      13 March 2014 at 8:55 pm

      Really, read the whole article.

    • karol 27.4
      13 March 2014 at 9:05 pm

      That bell ringing and applause sounds sooooo Paula Bennett.

    • weka 27.5
      13 March 2014 at 9:24 pm

      “Going to WINZ for help is no longer, well, helpful:”

      No longer? That story is bad, but it’s not new unfortunately. Same old shit, new suit. The thing I wish for is support for people in her situation to deal with this. Beneficiaries need a union, and they need support to push back.

      • Draco T Bastard 27.5.1
        13 March 2014 at 10:48 pm

        It’s been getting worse over the last few years but that’s generally what we should expect from National. Their policies to maintain a high unemployment so as to keep wages down causes them to have to shift the blame onto the unemployed themselves so that they can hope to be re-elected.

        Beneficiaries used to have a union – wonder what happened to it.

    • RedBaronCV 27.6
      13 March 2014 at 9:58 pm

      Really doesn’t show any respect for the person’s own views thought and emotions – not being allowed to make their own decision. An outgrowth of the face book world where everyone has to hang all their fdeelings out in public.

  28. karol 28
    13 March 2014 at 8:57 pm

    Penny Bright in the news about being threatened with eviction and her house being sold, for her protest of not paying her rates.

    • Naki Man 28.1
      13 March 2014 at 10:40 pm

      Penny Bright needs to have her water supply and sewerage disconnected by the council. Her rubbish collection should stop also until her debt is paid. How do Jaffa’s like subsidising people like her?

      • Draco T Bastard 28.1.1
        13 March 2014 at 10:49 pm

        Better than we feel about subsidising Rio Tinto, Warner Bros, and SkyCity.

      • lprent 28.1.2
        13 March 2014 at 11:00 pm

        Water and sewerage aren’t run by the council.

        • McFlock 28.1.2.1
          13 March 2014 at 11:17 pm

          goddamn facts…

        • weka 28.1.2.2
          13 March 2014 at 11:23 pm

          “Water and sewerage aren’t run by the council.”

          Why not? They are in lots of other places.

          $29,000 seems like a lot. She’s not paid for 6 years, what’s the average yearly rate bill for Auckland?

          • Draco T Bastard 28.1.2.2.1
            14 March 2014 at 1:00 am

            It’s effectively an SoE and, yes, the council use it as a cash cow.

          • felix 28.1.2.2.2
            14 March 2014 at 6:56 am

            “Auckland Council wrote to activist Penny Bright this month to demand $29,000 to cover overdue rates, penalties and legal costs.”

            • weka 28.1.2.2.2.1
              14 March 2014 at 9:22 am

              “Auckland Council wrote to activist Penny Bright this month to demand $29,000 to cover overdue rates, penalties and legal costs.”

              Yes, so it looks like the rates is the smaller part of that. I don’t know what Auckland rates are like though.

              • Tracey …
                14 March 2014 at 9:35 am

                High. And been climbing too. I wouldn’t mind if we were close to a decent integrated transport system rather than paying huge salaries to executives and boards of watercare etc for running monopoly

                BUT also high in Malrborough where apiece of land with no council amenities is paying $1400 in rates per year.

          • Tracey 28.1.2.2.3
            14 March 2014 at 8:41 am

            Watercare is an Auckland City organisation, a CCO I believe Mr Hide calls them? CCO or arms length company paying large salaries to people to make a monopoly work profitably (insert laughter).

            “Who we are owned by

            Watercare is a council organisation, wholly owned by the Auckland Council. The council appoints the company’s board of directors who in turn appoint the chief executive.”

            So they charge for water into the house and then they charge for water leaving the house. I think 75% of water exiting the house is charged for. I have lived in homes on individual water meters in Auckland for over 15 years.

          • lprent 28.1.2.2.4
            17 March 2014 at 11:00 pm

            Beats me. My rates are about $900pa for a single bedroom apartment.

            The 3 bedroom Grey Lynn town house we were in from 2009-2012 has rates of $1,624.28 pa

            The 3 bedroom Grey Lynn villa we were in before that has rates of $2,965.24 pa

            I gather that 3 bedroom houses around Ponsonby & Grey Lynn are expensive. But have a look at http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/RATESBUILDINGPROPERTY/RATESVALUATIONS/RATESPROPERTYSEARCH/Pages/RatesSearch.aspx

      • felix 28.1.3
        13 March 2014 at 11:10 pm

        Ladies and Gents, the authoritarian right wing.

        Eagerly supporting big govt exerting power over the individual since ages ago,

        • Tracey 28.1.3.1
          14 March 2014 at 8:43 am

          Oh how it hates the individual who rails against big business, unless they are doing so with a tax lawyer.

  29. North 29
    14 March 2014 at 5:42 am

    Judith Collins close to tears………sensitive wee sausage she.