Open mike 14/11/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 14th, 2021 - 265 comments
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265 comments on “Open mike 14/11/2021 ”

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  1. mauī 1
    13 November 2021 at 3:28 pm

    There are over 1 million unvaccinated kiwis, probably more than "a few thousand" there who don't like being treated as cattle.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Anne 1.1
      13 November 2021 at 3:36 pm

      The vast bulk of whom are children under 12. frown

      • Cricklewood 1.1.1
        13 November 2021 at 6:37 pm

        Not at all, we have @ 4 million people over the age of 14 as of 2020. If we get to 90 percent double vaxxed that leaves @ 400000 people plus their children thats a significant number of people.

        Putting them in a second tier class is a huge mistake that will have intergenerational consequences in terms of education, poverty, distrust in government etc etc.

        Wide spread mandates are just not worth it.

      • Gypsy 1.1.2
        14 November 2021 at 10:54 am

        Nope.

        Population of NZ = 5,084,000

        Eligible Population = 4,210,000

        Fully vaxxed as of today = 80% of eligible population.

        So, under vaxx age = 874,000.

        Vaxx eligible, not vaxxed = 20% of 4,210,000 = 842,000.

        So there are 1,716,000 unvaxxed kiwi's, of which the children are only just over half.

        • Cricklewood 1.1.2.1
          14 November 2021 at 1:00 pm

          Yeah its a huge number of people I based my figures on NZ making it to 90 percent.

          I really dont see how alienating the population of a large city from NZ society is a good idea if you think a little longer term than the next 6 months and as economic desperation sets in you will not doubt start seeing very extreme responses as previously productive members of society find themselves coming into contact with the likes of Winz.

  2. Macro 2
    13 November 2021 at 4:26 pm

    And yet! They would rather take a drug (which acts like a nerve agent ) used as a cattle pour on drench.

    Ivermectin is a member of the macrocyclic lactone class of endectocides which have a unique mode of action. Compounds of this class bind selectively and with high affinity to glutamate-gated chloride ion channels which occur in invertebrate nerve and muscle cells. This leads to an increase in the permeability of the cell membrane to chloride ions with hyperpolarization of the nerve or muscle cell, resulting in paralysis and death of the parasite. Compounds of this class may also interact with other ligand-gated chloride channels, such as those gated by the neurotransmitter gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA).
    The margin of safety for compounds of this class is attributable to the fact that mammals do not have glutamate-gated chloride channels, the macrocyclic lactones have a low affinity for other mammalian ligand-gated chloride channels and they do not readily cross the blood-brain barrier.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • mauī 2.1
      13 November 2021 at 5:15 pm

      Yeah maybe you can send the Indian Council of Medical Research and the Tokyo Medical Association an email and tell them they're actually doing Vet Science 😆

    • Ad 2.2
      13 November 2021 at 5:23 pm

      Team can we PLEZE not do vaccine bullshit on this post.

      There's over a dozen good links provided about economic change and impact to go through first.

      Ta.

    • Ross 2.3
      13 November 2021 at 5:30 pm

      And yet! They would rather take a drug (which acts like a nerve agent ) used as a cattle pour on drench.

      Ivermectin has been used with great effect on humans since the 1980s.

      <blockquote>There are few drugs that can seriously lay claim to the title of ‘Wonder drug’, penicillin and aspirin being two that have perhaps had greatest beneficial impact on the health and wellbeing of Mankind. But ivermectin can also be considered alongside those worthy contenders, based on its versatility, safety and the beneficial impact that it has had, and continues to have, worldwide—especially on hundreds of millions of the world’s poorest people.</blockquote>

      Thalidomide is also used on humans, being a very effective drug against blood cancer.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043740/

      [RL: This is off topic. Any further comments in this direction will be moved to OM. Be more careful.]

    • Cricklewood 2.4
      13 November 2021 at 6:41 pm

      Fuck me I hate this shit, Ivermectin is widely used in humans and has an excellent safety profile it has been so beneficial in treating parasite born disease it won the inventors a Nobel peace prize.

      Whilst its efficacy against Covid is hotly contested it is not dangerous at the correct doses.

      [RL: Not the thread for this discussion.]

    • mac1 3.1
      14 November 2021 at 8:02 am

      When my wife asked "Who won?" I replied "We did." "Who's we?" she asked. Mac1 just smiled…..

      • Gezza 3.1.1
        14 November 2021 at 8:18 am

        I dare not look, lest the grief & post-match autopsies of the sportswriters are too overwhelmingly gruesome.

        What was the score?

  4. Ad 4
    14 November 2021 at 7:55 am

    As expected COP26 against fossil fuels is down to the wire.

    COP26 latest: India and China push back on fossil fuels | Financial Times (ft.com)

    India and China quite rightly wondering how all he concrete and steel the world demands is going to get made if they can't use coal.

    On the other hand, the Saudis appear to back the current text.

    Wait for Russia and Australia to weigh in within minutes.

    We should do this more often. Just for the moral scrumming.

  5. Blazer 5
    14 November 2021 at 7:56 am

    What about someone with a …'split personality'?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  6. Gezza 6
    14 November 2021 at 7:59 am

    Another bonny young nephew welcomed to me Irish clan side around 7 am this morning. Took his time arriving but his granddad was a bit of a late arriver to some parties too.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bxguidIvTcQ

    All well. Texts n pix will be flyin round te whanau today. 😊

    • Patricia Bremner 6.1
      14 November 2021 at 8:59 am

      Warm congratulations.smiley

      • Gezza 6.1.1
        14 November 2021 at 9:15 am

        Kia ora for that, e kuia.

        I should have said another grand-nephew added to the clans – he’s of Irish & Scottish heritage.

        Any kilt-wearers there yesterday, Patricia?
        Any pipes?

        • Patricia Bremner 6.1.1.1
          14 November 2021 at 9:31 am

          Years ago Norm used to play for the Highland dancers and a pipe band, as did my grandfather on Mum's Scottish side. Irish pipes in my Father's family. However a heart problem made keeping the bag inflated rather a problem for hubbie Norm. He can still do the intricate fingering on the chanter so the guitar replaced all that.

          Let us hope we beat this virus. I read briefly this a.m. that India have a possible better vaccine.? We also need better outcomes from COP. for your grand nephew and his peers. Did you read Andrea Vance on 3 waters? Cheers Gezza.

          • Gezza 6.1.1.1.1
            14 November 2021 at 9:36 am

            Yep – have read Andrea’s excellent OP.
            Even commented on it below.

          • Macro 6.1.1.1.2
            14 November 2021 at 12:07 pm

            Norm used to play for the Highland dancers and a pipe band, as did my grandfather on Mum's Scottish side

            Me too. Had to give up with a hiatus hernia. Keeping the bag inflated was just too much pressure on the diaphragm and the pain afterwards was just not worth the effort. Can't do much gardening for the same reason. 🙁

            However Scottish Country dancing keeps me fit and feeds the cultural void.

            • Patricia Bremner 6.1.1.1.2.1
              14 November 2021 at 2:20 pm

              Oh Macro thank you for a great laugh. We have been there many a time You must be a fit guy if you still do that.laughdevilPipes are not for everyone. As a friend said "I love pipes…over the water…. waaaay over the water.''

          • Gezza 6.1.1.1.4
            14 November 2021 at 1:08 pm

            .
            Drat. Hopefully this time…

            • Patricia Bremner 6.1.1.1.4.1
              14 November 2021 at 2:23 pm

              Norm says "The Battle's O'er" Very good.

            • RedLogix 6.1.1.1.4.2
              14 November 2021 at 6:43 pm

              Ha. That's a tad nostalgic – I recognise the exact location being not very far at all from our building site.

              • Gezza …
                14 November 2021 at 6:56 pm

                They built a new War Memorial, Red. I went to the opening. It was very moving. People spoke and read about Tawa residents from the Boer, First & 2nd World War times, & conditions in the Tawa.Flat district in those years, what happened to men (& women) who came back damaged, the 1918 flu etc.

                Were you still here when it was built?

                • RedLogix …
                  14 November 2021 at 7:01 pm

                  No. We lived in Tawa from 2002 to 2009, and left for Aus in 2013.

                  • Gezza …
                    14 November 2021 at 7:49 pm

                    They’ve re-landscaped & redeveloped Grasslees Reserve & the children’s playground adjacent to the indoor Swimming Pool too. Put in a big Japanese-style curving bridge linking the play area to the park area & installed a pay-for barbecue there.

                    Quite an impressive job. Might take & post you a pic here sometime.

                    I love living in Tawa. Close to Porirua Shopping Complexes (free parking & good access to everything), Kenepuru Community Hospital services (same deal with parking), hardly ever need to go into the city proper.

            • Patricia Bremner 6.1.1.1.4.3
              15 November 2021 at 8:29 am

              Gezza. Norm says you are right. He asked to hear it again and the 1st 3 notes are the same, and a similar tune. lol He is quite nonplussed

              • Gezza …
                15 November 2021 at 8:43 am

                Tell Norm he’s a real man. Real men have no probs having another think & deciding they were wrong becos their egos don’t get in the way.

                From what you’ve posted recently, Norm sounds like my kind of bloke. 👍🏼

  7. dv 7
    14 November 2021 at 7:59 am

    Well worth read

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126906088/covid19-a-paper-on-vaccination-in-pregnancy-coauthored-by-simon-thornley-has-been-panned-by-experts-around-the-world

    . The paper is being circulated in anti-vaccination groups and some online publications.

    There are, however, numerous problems with the paper: It contains unfounded speculation, and ignores a considerable body of evidence on the vaccine’s safety. Its conclusions also appear to be at odds with the authors’ own explanations of their work.

    published in a journal founded and edited by an American anti-vaccination campaigner,

    Thornley and Brock’s paper is said to be a reanalysis of an influential study published in April by the Centre for Disease Control (CDC), which was based on a database of pregnant people given an mRNA Covid-19 vaccine between December 2020 and February 2021.

    That study found the rate of miscarriages among the vaccinated group was within the expected range.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.1
      14 November 2021 at 3:27 pm

      That article in Stuff is detailed and explains things well.

      Thornley is a key "Plan B" person – thank heavens we didn't follow their advice.

    • McFlock 7.2
      14 November 2021 at 4:43 pm

      Dude's almost gone full Wakefield, huh.

      Cherry-picking miscarriages to go antivax seems somehow worse than just championing disease spread before we had a vaccine. Appropriating others' grief when many are already over-analysing their choices to blame themselves is brutal.

  9. Sabine 9
    14 November 2021 at 8:48 am

    And here comes a new vaccine from India.

    Covaxin, a vaccine developed in India, has been proven to have 77.8 per cent efficacy rate against the coronavirus, a study in the medical journal The Lancet has revealed.

    A statement by the manufacturer Bharat Biotech International said: “the Lancet peer review confirms the efficacy analysis that demonstrates Covaxin to be effective against Covid-19.”

    It added: “Covaxin is the only Covid-19 vaccine to have demonstrated efficacy data from Phase 3 clinical trials against the Delta variant at 65.2 per cent.”

    full article here https: //www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/covid-india-covaxin-vaccine-lancet-b1956438.html

    peer reviewed results : https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2821%2902000-6

  10. ianmac 10
    14 November 2021 at 9:04 am

    Washington Post considers why some are vaccine hesitant. Makes sense to me and offers a solution for combatting reluctance.

    Many people are afraid that they’ll make a bad decision. They’re influenced by the psychology of anticipated regret. ……..

    ……The psychology of regret can also help explain why coronavirus vaccine mandates have generally been so effective. Despite the many assertions that mandates would lead to mass resignations, the employees of many organizations ultimately got on board. Consider New York City’s largest police union, which fought such mandates in court and argued that the police department would lose thousands of officers. In the end, out of a force of about 35,000 officers, fewer than three dozen refused the vaccine. Similarly, of the 67,000 employees at United Airlines facing a mandate, only 320 refused to get vaccinated.

    When people don’t feel the weight of making their own choice, they aren’t as tormented by the anticipated negative outcomes of their decision. Mandates externalize responsibility for getting vaccinated — shifting it from the self to others — making it easier to go forward with getting a shot. (Confronting the reality of losing a job surely also has a persuasive effect.)

    Paywalled but https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/11/11/vaccine-hesitancy-psychology-regret/

    • AB 10.1
      14 November 2021 at 9:19 am

      "When people don’t feel the weight of making their own choice, they aren’t as tormented by the anticipated negative outcomes of their decision. "

      Yeah well – we've spent 35 years being told that people are poor, sick, unhappy, etc. through making "bad decisions" – and that if they'd only made good decisions they'd see how fair, just, optimistic and sunny the world really is. This toxic, anxiety-inducing trash ideology is everywhere – and it drives people mad.

      • Sabine 10.1.1
        14 November 2021 at 9:36 am

        +1

      • RedLogix 10.1.2
        14 November 2021 at 9:41 am

        Yeah – just STFU and let an always benevolent state do the thinking.

        • Tricledrown 10.1.2.1
          14 November 2021 at 1:12 pm

          As opposed to benevolent corporations Redilogical so when we have a war against an enemy we all go our separate ways and let the enemy win.Your Exclusive Brethren,Brian Tamaki,Gloriavale anti govt rhetoric is waving a white flag / giving up cowardly caving in to a very small group of powerless people sabotaging the fight against covid not surprising from Clive Palmer country.

      • ianmac 10.1.3
        14 November 2021 at 9:49 am

        I do know some people who are indecisive about ordinary choices. Yet when someone else decides for them their doubts fade away usually with a shrug.

        We are talking about the hesitant to get vaccinated group not decisive ones. Be interesting to see just how many teachers drop out of the workforce next week.

      • bwaghorn 10.1.4
        14 November 2021 at 11:03 am

        To be fair my not so good financial position is due to my shit decisions, of course why I made those shit decisions could keep a psychiatrists and social scientist going for a while I expect,

        • Descendant Of Smith 10.1.4.1
          14 November 2021 at 1:58 pm

          Yeah but sometimes one persons shit decision can be another's principled decision.

          I have no doubt that if I had purchased the cheap properties I had been offered over the years I would now be extremely wealthy. I however stuck to my principle that one only needs one house to live in and I would never live off someone else's earnings.

          I've stuck to that and still only own the house I live in – financially much poorer.

          There are those who would clearly believe that those decisions were poor decisions and even that I cut off my nose to spite my face.

          I understand perfectly the trade-off but I'm comfortable with that. A capitalist I'll never be. I've lost jobs, promotions and income for standing on principles – Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

          The thing I've learned over the years is to never regret the decisions you make – you don't know what would have happened if you had made a different one. I've had friends who chased the dollar – including renovating rental properties – some are millionaires, some lost their house and went bankrupt, I've had friends who went to better jobs who have done really well and friends who have had horrific on the job accidents in their first week leaving them permanently disabled.

          What I do know is that luck plays an enormous part in what actually happens. It is never just about individual decisions. Even the family (and community) you were born into makes an enormous difference.

          This individual self made man bullshit is so often just that.

          • ianmac 10.1.4.1.1
            14 November 2021 at 2:38 pm

            Totally agree with your position DOS. My car is 21 years old. But we are wise and thoughtful. The "Indecisives" are an important group whose future in the community needs tolerance and understanding and hopefully a change of heart. Not you. Not me. They.

          • Heather Grimwood 10.1.4.1.2
            14 November 2021 at 2:42 pm

            to DOS at 10.1.4.1 : I applaud the frame-of-reference on which you make your decisions. How different society would be if more worked from same.

            At least you can live and rest in peace with yourself.

            Regarding advancement, I heard my father (pressed to apply for promotion by peers) say he could never do that on backs of others.

          • bwaghorn 10.1.4.1.3
            14 November 2021 at 3:15 pm

            Yes but dont blame other people or "the system dude".

            After my divorce I could have bought a cheap doer upper ,I had a brain fart bought a ute and stuck some in kiwisaver, if I'd been clever I'd own a house worth $100k more than what I paid for it ,even if I'd done nothing to last I less than 3 years, how I'll never own property again and hope the state will help me when I can no longer earn a roof over my head,

            But it certainly isnt the systems fault.

            • Descendant Of Smith 10.1.4.1.3.1
              17 November 2021 at 10:50 am

              Yes but don't blame other people or "the system dude".

              Of course other people and the system cause problems as well. Standing on principles means bucking the system often or disagreeing with people who are in leadership positions but are unaccepting of disagreement. Whether you get those people in charge of you is part of the "luck". I've had people try to help my career and others to destroy it – you're just trying to argue the self made man from the other side of the argument. What you are saying is that if you don't conform and support the system then you are responsible for the system spitting you out like a piece of trash – nah systems need changing – they are sexist and racist and classist – it is perfectly OK to put some responsibility for peoples circumstances, including your own, on those systems and on those people who make those decisions.

              We are all products of the institutions and social paradigms we grow up with.

          • theotherpat 10.1.4.1.4
            15 November 2021 at 8:56 am

            well said +1000

        • Patricia Bremner 10.1.4.2
          14 November 2021 at 2:31 pm

          At one point in my teaching I had a pupil who would totally stress until we could bring the decision to a binary. This? or that?

        • McFlock 10.1.4.3
          14 November 2021 at 4:54 pm

          Funnily enough, I made shit decisions in my 20s that ended up me being employed in the same good place for a decade so far.

          Plain luck that the (then) obscure stuff I did for enough points to qualify for allowances (rather than "studying for my career") cropped up in a vacancy that appeared just when I was looking to change careers.

          That's one reason I put all this personal responsibility rhetoric in the bin.

          Sure, if you choose to murder someone or embezzle, without any external coercion, that'll probably still screw you a decade from now. But most of the rest of it, most day to day choices, they don't do shit compared to the forces of luck and the forces of other people's decisions – government, corporate, inventors, dude who has a whim one day, branch that falls on your head.

          But it's a great excuse to write people off and not help them: "poor decisions". As if everything one owns can't be lost overnight.

    • RedLogix 10.2
      14 November 2021 at 9:39 am

      In the end, out of a force of about 35,000 officers, fewer than three dozen refused the vaccine.

      The simpler explanation is they had bills to pay next week.

      • KJT 10.2.1
        14 November 2021 at 11:55 am

        So. Obviously not that anti.

        Or they would stick to "their choice" to refuse the vaccine and abandon their job.

      • ianmac 10.2.2
        14 November 2021 at 1:28 pm

        Given that there are some people who are reluctant to vaccinate, and we agree that vaccination is important, then I would have thought a possible solution could be reasonably considered.

        Some people are scared of making a mistake by getting the jab.

        If the helpers understood this and listened to the reluctant one explain why they feared making this mistake, maybe a few more might change their mind. Let's not cloud it with "let an always benevolent state do the thinking." Unhelpful.

  11. pat 11
    14 November 2021 at 9:20 am

    Wrong 'fossil fuel' for NZ

    "New Zealand won a Fossil award on the penultimate day of COP26, for Climate Change Minister James Shaw's refusal to update the country's National Determined Contribution to constraining global temperature rises."

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro-talks-nz-awarded-humiliating-fossil-status-at-cop26

    • Gezza 11.1
      14 November 2021 at 9:30 am

      .
      Eek❗️

      Embarrassing for Shaw & The Greens, caught between a rock & a hard place by political pragmatism. ☹️

    • DukeEll 11.2
      14 November 2021 at 5:03 pm

      Having a campfire will win you an earth murderer award from that lot. Wouldn’t worry too much about it

  12. Molly 12
    14 November 2021 at 9:33 am

    The LGB Alliance UK was formed when some of the members of Stonewall who raised concerns about the obliteration of same sex attraction support within the organisation were ignored, and/or branded transphobic.

    Stonewall, along with Mermaids attempted to brand this organisation a hate group, and opposed it receiving charitable status. They had their annual conference a couple of weeks ago.

    For those interested, Allison Bailey's speech from the LGB Alliance has now been posted.

    https://youtu.be/Otbfv45TRK0

    • Molly 12.1
      14 November 2021 at 11:39 am

      This is the kind of ideology that inspired the LGB Alliance formation:

      The Diary of a Hole.

      I'm struck by the lack of self-awareness, the coercive language, and the dismantling of the sex classes even while discussing genitals.

      I have no hesitation in saying that I would not seek an intimate physical relationship with a transman, as a heterosexual women.

      • weka 12.1.1
        14 November 2021 at 11:45 am

        Yuk, can't even get past the first sentence. And it's not gender critical feminists that talk about sexual intimacy in terms of which hole to stick things in.

        The big conversation yet to be had is whether society should majorly adapt language, concepts, laws, conventions around the mental illness of a small number of people. No idea if the author has gender dysphoria, but it's hard to not see the dehumanising language arising from a disturbed state in relation to human bodies and feelings.

        Beyond that, there’s a question of why so many women want to do away with women’s culture, and the relationship between that and growing up and living in large scale misogyny.

        • joe90 12.1.1.1
          14 November 2021 at 12:09 pm

          Afraid to tell you but after a such promising start, the interweb degenerated into a disgusting, misogynistic place with a seemingly never ending stream of offensive vitriol and hate.

          And links like that get passed around constantly.

          /

          • weka 12.1.1.1.1
            14 November 2021 at 12:28 pm

            Aē, and part of the issue here is that social media in particular is rushing to uphold gender identity while at the same time actively practising misogyny. There are really good reasons why so many women are both afraid and really angry about the language changes being forced on women alongside that.

            https://twitter.com/ariana_erbon/status/1459248111575080960

            Talking about front holes and meat bodies was for a time completely acceptable in the pro-queer left. No idea if it still is or if they've come to their senses.

        • francesca 12.1.1.2
          14 November 2021 at 12:41 pm

          Yes, I'm afraid we have to turn taxonomy upside down , the old way of classifying plants and animals by the manner of their reproduction strategies,(binary sex)is not inclusive of how a minority of folk see themselves.

          Bowdlerise the dictionaries, a new prudishness has come to town

          Who we feel attracted to sexually has everything to do with sex organs

          It's hardly fetishishism , it's how most of us work

    • left for dead 12.2
      15 November 2021 at 10:59 am

      @Molly,

      Thanks,I set aside this morning to watch and very pleased I did.I'm in the process writing to Ingrid Leary Labour MP for Taieri,her electorate office Has suffered a graffiti attack,she purports it to be anti-transgender and when on to spread fur mis-information.I unable to link but it will be found in the November 4th edition of the ODT.

  14. KJT 14
    14 November 2021 at 10:17 am

    Oliver Sutherland: Justice and Race – E-Tangata

    “All that was wrong with our system of justice was typified by the scene of a middle-aged, middle-class male Pākehā magistrate or judge sitting in judgement on a young Māori woman and deciding that her background and her family were so bad, so worthless, that she should be taken from them and locked up.”

    • Molly 14.1
      14 November 2021 at 10:27 am

      Thanks for posting. The article is a worthwhile read.

    • Subliminal 14.2
      14 November 2021 at 12:58 pm

      A rather horrifying read. The worst is the final paragraph that makes clear that by still incacerating children the likelihood of continuing institutional racism is high. It also highlights the deepest dark side of democracy in that there is little to prevent a white majority turning on an ethnic minority and in particular, a minority that are our treaty partners. By always defending democracy as an absolute and without recognising its warts we give a free hand to the right to play the democracy card at any point where they consider Maori action is gaining too much. This is most evident at present in the 3 waters debate.

      • KJT 14.2.1
        14 November 2021 at 3:55 pm

        This deserves a post. But struggling to write coherent ones at present. I'll try.

        Our “justice system” doesn’t work well for anyone. Even less well for Māori youth.

        It would be good if we actually tried Democracy. Then we could sort out "the warts".

        Minority rights are always dependent on the goodwill and fairness of the majority. No system of Government can fix that. Unless a repressive minority is in control. Who then tend to look after their own advantage, and not other minorities.

        Noting that apart from a very vocal minority, most Pakeha New Zealanders have either accepted or supported Waitangi claims, amoung other things.

        If we are looking after, all, our people, then the majority are much more likely to agree to extending rights to others. Very often poor people see that wealthy people are keen on extending rights to other people. But only if the poor, pay for it.

        Pakeha that do not want three waters to be privatised or sold, may consider the fact that more Māori rights, may help prevent further selloffs.

        • Subliminal 14.2.1.1
          14 November 2021 at 4:49 pm

          I have always thought that Maori control of anything is the surest way to prevent selloff to foreign interests. The Treaty has been the only thing that has consistently stood in the way of indiscriminate foreign control. The right recognise this and fight tooth and nail to prevent it. They need everything to be for sale. Maori or Iwi control is the closest thing that NZ has to recreating a commons and we should therefore embrace and support it.

          • Gezza 14.2.1.1.1
            14 November 2021 at 7:40 pm

            That’s food for thought, there, Subliminal.

            There’s a potential issue with tribal elites perhaps ending up replacing the old landed gentry or corporate rich listers & them actually flogging off or leasing previously common (state) property – but as Māori hapu iwi & marae Committees (& members themselves) become better informed & quakified & skilled in the actual management & development of Māori-controlled assets – and this IS happening – there’s an inbuilt control mechanism for those marae & hapu iwi whose rangatira authority is still strongly derived from ongoing nga tangata consent, & which can be removed should consent be denied by enuf of those who feel their collective mana is being harmed by unwise leadership decisions.

            But ownership & kaitiakitanga in this Kiwiland of ours needs to be fairly shared betwen generations-resident Pākehā & we need to get much better at how Māori & Pākehā hui & kōrero to best achieve restoring & honouring the mana of the land, the forests, the beaches, fisheries, waterways, ngahere, & of all those who feel part of this land.

            That’s how I see things at this point, anyway.

          • left for dead 14.2.1.1.2
            15 November 2021 at 11:26 am

            @Sub..

            I hope the penny will drop (for a number around here)with that last sentenence.

  16. Anker 16
    14 November 2021 at 10:33 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/300453493/gender-selfid-raises-complex-questions-its-not-transphobic-to-ask-them

    Brilliant article in todays Stuff, by two Gender Critical feminists. This is the first time since about 2018 -19 the msm have carried such article. This discussion needed to be had in the media well before bills such as BMDRR and Conversion Practices.

    I would encourage anyone who rights off women with concerns about this bill as transphobic to read the article.

    • Sabine 16.1
      14 November 2021 at 10:51 am

      The Human Rights Commission has interpreted the Human Rights Act provisions that protected women as also applying to people observed male at birth who identify as women, effectively nullifying the provisions

      Equal pay is now determined by gender identity, not sex; statistical data is likewise collected by gender identity instead of sex.

      People born male who identify as women are being appointed to jobs previously designated by law as available only to natal women, such as roles in sexual abuse counselling.

      Oh well, its a brave new world, and it pays to be a man or a man who identifies as a women, just have the good sense not to be born a non male or have the good sense to trans into a man for a chance of a career and decent pay.

      Vote Labour/Green -we will protect you from the phobes. 2023

      • James 2 16.1.1
        14 November 2021 at 1:08 pm

        This is good news the MSM finally have a counterpoint published….but I think it will be the only one.

        Coming from the UK, I see NZ turbo-charged on identity politics. The UK now has some pushback on Stonewall and other transgender activists in the mainstream. The US has a strong Republican power and alternative media (neither of which, for the record, I'm not a fan of – but simply highlighting their narrative disruption).

        NZ is an echochamber of identity politics with no real institutional pushback and very very very little media counterpoints. As Bryce Edwards has said, the cultural institutions are dominated by the progressive Left.

        A big part of me can't help but say – you earnt it. Transgender activism is the close cousin of applied-CRT in schooling, the mad rush to deify Maori culture and language and promote quite a radical interpretation of the Treaty, the unthinking spread of White Privilege as some beyond-debate fact, the demonisation of masculinity, the gleeful ignorance as humanities studies ever expanding into new areas of grievance by academics who see their primary role as left-wing activism.

        These strands all have a common link in identity politics and critical theories that now dominate academic and mainstream discussions. They inhere in the basic concept that language (for example "woman") is all power, and society is either oppressed or oppressor.

        So when gender-critical feminists now say, hold on, there are some serious issues now, you'll forgive me if I hear the crowing of roosters coming home.

        • joe90 16.1.1.1
          14 November 2021 at 1:17 pm

          applied-CRT in schooling

          CRT in schooling?

        • weka 16.1.1.2
          14 November 2021 at 1:30 pm
          1. the US is a shit show, with women and trans people alike being harmed.

          2. it's not the progressive left in charge of institutions in NZ, it's liberals.

          3. bloody maaris, there is no racism in NZ, what about the menz. When you put up some actual analysis rather than right wing talking points, you'll probably get some respect.

          4. I take it you've not been a supporter of second wave feminism then. Colour me surprised.

          • James 2 16.1.1.2.1
            14 November 2021 at 2:33 pm
            1. Neo-liberals may head economic institutions, and old-school liberals may nominally head cultural institutions, but the progressive Left dominate the cultural institutions.

            4. Actually, it's more complex. Largely, I support second-wave feminism. Every human, including women, should have the equal opportunity to freely fulfil their life and they sure as hell didn't have that opportunity (everyone should read The Bell Jar).

            However, I can't help but feel the kids have taken over kindergarten now, and some of the adults (including gender-critical feminists, who aren't necessarily all second-wave) sat by or endorsed the Frankfurt school, identity politics, and Left-wing domination of academia happening but are now are facing the consequences and feel aggrieved that they are now the ones on the sharp end of the "bigot/oppressor/etc" stick. When you redefine "harm" in such a tortured fashion, don't be surprised when it comes back to bite your own actions in the bum.

            But to be honest, I feel sick at what is happening and the idea a Women's Refugee would, for example, have to accept a man. But we can't pretend this all magically fell from the sky.

            3. Left-wing tropes of how non-Left wing people think is also no substitute for analysis, But since you asked, I can provide a few stats I have researched previously to provide a counter-weight for some of that, including that for example, male life is not all honey and milk:

            Men in NZ:

            • 2.2 times more likely than a female to die of heart disease
              times more likely than a female to die in a car accident
            • 7 times more likely than a female to die of a work injury (males were 87.5% of workplace deaths)
            • Worldwide, be 1.39 times more likely to die of COVID-19 worldwide and 2.84 times to more likely to admited to ICU, than a female
            • Live, on average, 3.4 years less than a female
            • Be 2.57 times more likely to commit suicide.
            • (In 2017) Have only 6 cents for every dollar of health funding researching that goes to female-only issues
            • Be less likely than females to leave school with University Entrance
            • Be less likely than females to hold a Bachelor’s Degree or higher
            • Be more likely than females to be without shelter or in temporary accommodation
            • Be more likely than females to be murdered (62% of homicide victims) and suffer injuries from an assault
            • For male perpetrators, consistently both in NZ and overseas, be treated significantly more harshly than females in the criminal judicial process, especially sentencing, and including for sexual assault offences.

            I've got references to back all that up, largely from Stats NZ. The Covid-19 figures may be more different now as that was early this year, but as far as I've seen it still remains strongly a male-fatality virus – which we hear zero about. If had been females with exactly the same statistics on Covid-19 fatalities, you can guarantee we would have howl upon howl of "femicide".

            I'm off to play tennis now. Enjoy your day.

            • I Feel Love 16.1.1.2.1.1
              14 November 2021 at 2:49 pm

              "Identity Politics" is bad, except if your identity is White Dude.

            • Sabine 16.1.1.2.1.2
              14 November 2021 at 3:25 pm

              My comments in cursive 🙂

              • 2.2 times more likely than a female to die of heart disease – nothing to do with women, we don't make you eat bad shit, don't work out, don't go to the doctors, don't take care of yourselfs. Own your own bad habits.
              • times more likely than a female to die in a car accident – nothing to do with women, we don't make you drive fast, or drunk, or under the influence of medication etc. Own your own accidents and bad driving.
              • .7 times more likely than a female to die of a work injury (males were 87.5% of workplace deaths) –also not the fault of women, own your bad driving – logging truck accidents as an exapmple, nor any othe accidents that you might suffer at a workplace because either you as the worker don't abide by the rules and regulations or your boss don't give a shit and you don't do anything about it. BTW, there might be a good chance that prositution is the most dangerous profession of them all, but they don't really do OSH studies on that atm, but surely it will come soon enough when Prostitution is considered a career choice. https://theconversation.com/is-sex-work-still-the-most-dangerous-profession-the-data-suggests-so-81854
              • Worldwide, be 1.39 times more likely to die of COVID-19 worldwide and 2.84 times to more likely to admited to ICU, than a female – again, women are not responsible for men smoking, for men being obese for being heavy drinkers, or for otherwise not taking care of their bodies, which in many cases is what leads to more death for men. Women are equally not responsible for having a better immune system, or for being better at social distancing and mask wearing https://www.healthline.com/health-news/men-more-susceptible-to-serious-covid-19-illnesses
              • Live, on average, 3.4 years less than a female – again, women are not responsible for the bad choices of men leading to earlie death by accindents and failing health. Again, we are also not responsible for your weaker immune system, something that men seem to ignore.
              • Be 2.57 times more likely to commit suicide. – women are not at fault for the abysmal funding of mental healthcare the world over, feel free to donate to Gumbooths Friday as they are very much trying to help out there.
              • (In 2017) Have only 6 cents for every dollar of health funding researching that goes to female-only issues – please link to that so that we can read up on it.
              • Be less likely than females to leave school with University Entrance – Girls and women have been told for millenia that we can't be as smart as man, having been denied access to education until well the 1970 of the last century for many working class women and girls the world over and still being denied education in many countries altogether.
              • Be less likely than females to hold a Bachelor’s Degree or higher – see my point above, it is not the fault of women that actually they are not only cabable of learning, and higher learning ,but actually at outperforming men. Maybe that is the reasons why for millenia women were told they could not learn, that their little lady brains are only good enough to knit, sew, breed, n make sandwiches.
              • Be more likely than females to be without shelter or in temporary accommodation -again nothing that women have caused or are causing.
              • Be more likely than females to be murdered (62% of homicide victims) and suffer injuries from an assault – it must really suck for men to see that not only are they killed and maimed by mainly male violence, but that they die in greater numbers as women at the hand of men. Maybe have a chat with fellow men and ask them to not fight, not kill – men and women, and just maybe don't be so effn violent?
              • For male perpetrators, consistently both in NZ and overseas, be treated significantly more harshly than females in the criminal judicial process, especially sentencing, and including for sexual assault offences. – again, sorry for the suckitude that is male violence, but men kill more often, do more harm, commit most of violents crimes and thus get treated often times harsher then a women who gets to go to prison for benefit fraud. But rejoice, if male prison is too much for the poor misunderstood and abused male offender, he can now identify as a women and get locked up with women. Equity!
              • garibaldi …
                14 November 2021 at 3:39 pm

                Well done Sabine. I hope James 2 gets to read your reply when he gets back from tennis.

                • James 2 …
                  14 November 2021 at 4:34 pm

                  Sabine's points are the perfect example of why more recent, and more militant, feminism is problematic.

                  My examples were never to show:

                  – females are to blame for all men's problems (they're not)

                  – females don't also suffer (they do)

                  – men can't do better (they can)

                  They were to illustrate that a blanket view of males as inherently privileged and which is pervading current discourse is both wrong and unhelpful. History has shat on the vast majority of men AND women for centuries.

                  So we all face different struggles and I'm all for constructive ways to allow different groups to flourish. But Sabine is playing the zero-sum game of current feminism whereby if females are in a bad position, it must be 'because (sexist) men' and the way to lift up females is by putting down males.

                  I also find it hilarious that biological (brain?) differences now exist to explain disparity in secondary school achievement between the differences…..but, 'because (sexist) men/society' why there are more male CEOs, engineers, etc than females.

                  And even if its true there is a biological basis for differential educational achievement, why are we not considering offering a more male centred approach to schooling? Or do we not want young men to succeed? Or is because we are now bias against traits and behaviours generally associated with males, such as competition and physicality?

                  The funny thing about female educational and economic success is it can lead to more inequality as study after study show women are far less likely to marry with lower socio-economic stuatus.

                  Young men are so rarely given positive encouragement these days. The saying is "girls can do anything" – boys, well, you're all potential rapists who need to change.

                  (Also, I completely agree with the ridiculousness of Self-ID, but I can assure you it is not men like me demanding the right to magically identify as women.)

                  • Molly …
                    14 November 2021 at 4:51 pm

                    Sabine's points are the perfect example of why more recent, and more militant, feminism is problematic.

                    Feminism isn't a hive mind, just as I suppose your comment indicates that masculism isn't as well. (Don't worry, I had to look it up so I could put you under some largeumbrella of a term as well.)

                    You just put down a list of life events that men statistically are higher represented, as if that has no context.

                    Here's one for you.

                    https://twitter.com/ariana_erbon/status/1212427311083130880

                  • Sabine …
                    14 November 2021 at 7:18 pm

                    Did I upset you by not taking any responsability for the things that man do to themselves and others. Oh well. I can't help that either.

                    Did I ever state that i am a feminist? heck no. But i am a women, in a female body, that has scars to proof of its own issues with the things men do to those that they can abuse.

                    Did I ever claim that you or any other man would identify themselves into a place where women – the natal ones – used to congregate without male supervision? No i did not. I am in fact quite open abut calling them 'opportunists', or bearded men in robes, or AGP, or Cross dressers or just well other words that may be considered banable.

                    Do i know that man can suffer from male violence, totally, my stepfather abused my brother with the same gusto that he abused me. 🙂 I think they call men like him now, "minor attracted person" or MAP in short.

                    The funny thing about female education is that they don't need to marry at all anymore just so that they have a roof over their head and a square meal to eat. They also don't have to perform marital duties anymore in order to have that roof over their heads and that meal to eat. Neither do these women with education and jobs need to ask their husbands for pin money. Nor do they need to suffer silently trough the beer infused friday night bash.

                    Young man get the same opportunities as women, they get teh same education, the same student loans and can then apply for the same jobs. And yet, the wage disparity is still there with women with the same education and doing the same job earning less.

                    But fear not dear James, these stats will soon be all meaningless as anyone who wants can opt into womenhood, you don't even need to put lipstick on, and then Equity! Men still don't need to hire women, they can now hire men who identify as women, and thus diversity and equity is achieved.

                    Maybe go out yourself, find yourself some young men and teach them about self respect, consent, conflict resolution that does not involve drugs, booze, or fights.

                    And lastly, women are not therapy for men. It is not our duty to affirm men either as men or as women just because they need affirmation.

                    We have our own lifes to life, our own human experiences to live, and we'd like to so without fear of rape and death, without having to worry about being filmed in dressing rooms and toilets, and without men in our womens only spaces. Not that that matters to anyone, clearly.

              • bwaghorn …
                14 November 2021 at 8:08 pm

                Maori are higher than all white man in most of those negatives your screeched out of your keyboard, do you say the same about them Sabine??

                • Sabine …
                  14 November 2021 at 9:26 pm

                  Yes I do, i am pretty much outspoken that way.

                  In fact i have had some really good discussion with Maori about violence, drug abuse, consent, further education, and the likes. And i have compared with Maori – women of course, our own stress reactions to certain situations. Heck, i don't watch Once we were Warriors anymore, did it one time, and needed a cry a shower and stiff drink half way through. The rape of the daughter in that movie is my rape – i just managed to survive.

                  Is it really that uncomfortable to understand that violence is everywhere, that people die of it, in large numbers, and that more often then not the violence comes from men, specifically the sexual violence.

                  • bwaghorn …
                    15 November 2021 at 3:44 pm

                    Men are hard wired from 100 000 plus years of evolution to be aggressive risk takers when young, that's not an excuse btw, working out how to educate and raise them so its controlled or channeled to harmless area is what's needed, rugby is good for that.

              • Gezza …
                14 November 2021 at 11:02 pm

                Where did James say these bad stats are the fault of women, & if he didn’t, why are you so seemingly obsessed with pointing out for every one of them that these indicated problems are not the fault of women?

            • Gezza 16.1.1.2.1.3
              14 November 2021 at 3:33 pm

              Nice to someone’s looking to address the downsides of being a man, something that often gets lost in the all men are bastards rhetoric of (some quite genuinely) oppressed women.

              Some men oppress other men too. The pricks that have & like to wield power don’t just threaten & abuse females.

              And there’ve been plenty of times & places where I wouldn’t venture into just carrying on walking on the same footpath past dodgy-looking males (or groups of them) at night too.

              • Gezza …
                14 November 2021 at 3:34 pm

                🙄 * Nice to see…

              • Sabine …
                14 November 2021 at 3:42 pm

                please point to a 'all men are bastards' claim?

                Seriously please do. Most of us here that discuss issues that center the male being of men above the well being of women – i.e. men in places were we consider us vulnerable, i.e. changing rooms – are quite careful to point out that not all the issues committed by all man, or by any random man at any random time , but that generally until we have an issue with a particular bloke we don't know if they are dangerous or not. See the women in England who got arrested, kidnapped, raped, killed and dumped by a senior Cop this year in March. And thus our threat assessment is that if i don't know you and i consider you a potential danger, i am crossing the street or alter may way home completely.

                Women are also not responsible for holding men to account for the violence they inflict on men. Men should do that. Keep a lid on your own. Start raising boys to be less violent and find other means of conflict resolution and teach them the concept of consent.

                And last but least, i would like to point out that if you cross footpath when you see dodgy guys, what do you think women do?

                • Blazer …
                  14 November 2021 at 3:56 pm

                  Gezza,me and many others are probably unaware of your unique…

                  '

                  It's Sabine employing rhetoric. Don't take it literally and get to know her style, because she's saying important things.'

                • Gezza …
                  14 November 2021 at 4:12 pm

                  Sabine:
                  “please point to a ‘all men are bastards’ claim?”

                  G: I haven’t seen any such claim made here

                  “Seriously please do. Most of us here that discuss issues that center the male being of men above the well being of women – i.e. men in places were we consider us vulnerable, i.e. changing rooms – are quite careful to point out that not all the issues committed by all man, or by any random man at any random time , but that generally until we have an issue with a particular bloke we don’t know if they are dangerous or not. See the women in England who got arrested, kidnapped, raped, killed and dumped by a senior Cop this year in March. And thus our threat assessment is that if i don’t know you and i consider you a potential danger, i am crossing the street or alter may way home completely.”

                  G: Of course. That is completely understandable & sensible. Women have been forced to do that in numerous societies for millenia probably.

                  “Women are also not responsible for holding men to account for the violence they inflict on men. Men should do that. Keep a lid on your own.”

                  G: Sure. I’m a 55 kilo slim chap being monstered by a 200 kilo gang member gorilla who thinks I looked the wrong way at him and his thug mug mates. How do you reckon my telling him it’s not a good idea to be violent with me becos he’ll get into trouble & one day he might look back & regret being a bully is going to turn out?

                  “Start raising boys to be less violent and find other means of conflict resolution and teach them the concept of consent.”

                  G: Me & my late wife weren’t able to have any kids, sadly – & to our lifelong regret. But if I did I couldn’t have given birth to them. That requires a woman. I was raised not to be violent by a father AND a mother. 3 boys, 1 girl, the youngest, in our whanau. There were two rules we boys were all taught as toddlers – 1. Don’t fight, & 2. Boys, you NEVER hit a girl. Ever. Even if she hits you.

                  Boys learn at school, in the street, at various places yep, peaceful ways of conflict resolution are the absolute best way to go. But you learn pretty quickly also that if some prick starts to constantly insult & pick on you physically, sometimes the fastest & most permanent solution is to punch him in the nose. A bloody nose is still a good, fast way of concluding negotiations with bullies, I gather.

                  Can’t imagine ever wanting to have sex with a non-consenting woman. Where’s the mutual enjoyment in that?

                  “And last but least, i would like to point out that if you cross footpath when you see dodgy guys, what do you think women do?”

                  G: They do the same or they find another way home. I know I would, in their shoes.

                  • RedLogix …
                    14 November 2021 at 4:23 pm

                    And last I looked the every single one of these boys that apparently so badly need 'fixing' – has a mother.

                    While at the same time one of the most reliable predictors of a being in prison is fatherlessness.

                  • Molly …
                    14 November 2021 at 5:03 pm

                    Can’t imagine ever wanting to have sex with a non-consenting woman. Where’s the mutual enjoyment in that?

                    Gezza, I know you are probably just on a roll. But rape is an act of violence not intimacy. There is no mutual enjoyment, because that is not the point of a violation.

                    “And last but least, i would like to point out that if you cross footpath when you see dodgy guys, what do you think women do?”

                    G: They do the same or they find another way home. I know I would, in their shoes.

                    And they get raped anyway, like my friend and many others have been, with no evidence of 'mutual enjoyment'.

                    • Gezza …
                      14 November 2021 at 5:22 pm

                      “Gezza, I know you are probably just on a roll. But rape is an act of violence not intimacy. There is no mutual enjoyment, because that is not the point of a violation.”

                      G:.Far canal, Molly. How frackin dense do you think I am? Of course it’s an act of blimmin violence, (or grossly disrespectful sexual assault based on selfish self-gratification, if she’s so drunk out of her tree she doesn’t know wtf’s really happening) not intimacy.

                      What I am saying is that the notion of raping a woman – having sex with without her cognisant consent – would never even enter my head. Like it wouldn’t for any normal, decent male with a good upbringing & no antisocial/sexual psychological or personality disorders.

                      ““And last but least, i would like to point out that if you cross footpath when you see dodgy guys, what do you think women do?”
                      G: They do the same or they find another way home. I know I would, in their shoes.
                      And they get raped anyway, like my friend and many others have been, with no evidence of ‘mutual enjoyment’.”

                      G: I am very sorry that happened to your friend. I hope they caught the bastard & that he paid for it. It happens to men too, as several cases reported in the news have noted.

                    • Molly …
                      14 November 2021 at 5:39 pm

                      Frank Canal, Gezza.

                      It was you who clumsily joined sexual intimacy with rapre.

                      Go back. Re-read.

                      Can’t imagine ever wanting to have sex with a non-consenting woman. Where’s the mutual enjoyment in that?

                      Consider this. Your first sentence is a definition of rape, why follow it up with any reference to enjoyment mutual or otherwise?

                      A related sentence might have been:

                      "Where does that idea of sexual violence come from for some?"

                      G: I am very sorry that happened to your friend. I hope they caught the bastard & that he paid for it. It happens to men too, as several cases reported in the news have noted.

                      You make the assumption my friend was female, and so are the many others. And of course you should know by now, rape victims of any sex do not often find justice in our legal system. It's a work in very slow progress.

                    • Gezza …
                      14 November 2021 at 6:22 pm

                      @ Molly
                      “Frank Canal, Gezza. It was you who clumsily joined sexual intimacy with rapre.
                      Go back. Re-read. “Can’t imagine ever wanting to have sex with a non-consenting woman. Where’s the mutual enjoyment in that?”

                      G: Absolute BS, Molly. I made a simple statement in two sentences that indicated clearly that I enjoy sex with women who want to enjoy it too, thus consent. YOU read into that what you wanted to. And decided to harangue for reasons I have reason to want to know.

                      “Consider this. Your first sentence is a definition of rape, why follow it up with any reference to enjoyment mutual or otherwise? A related sentence might have been: “Where does that idea of sexual violence come from for some?””

                      G: Already covered. But. What would be the point of my making any comments if I were to seek your guidance beforehand on what points or questions I might address? Bizarre attitude.

                      “G: I am very sorry that happened to your friend. I hope they caught the bastard & that he paid for it. It happens to men too, as several cases reported in the news have noted.

                      You make the assumption my friend was female, and so are the many others. And of course you should know by now, rape victims of any sex do not often find justice in our legal system. It’s a work in very slow progress.”

                      Yes, I did, because Sabine’s comment – to which I was initially responding – was about women in that situation, & there was nothing in your comment to indicate that you had departed from that reference frame.

                      I’ll bid you good evening at this point, I think, Molly. There are other topics that interest me now far more than your bad attempts at mind-reading & directing the conversation to your requirements. .

                    • Gezza …
                      14 November 2021 at 6:24 pm

                      🙄 And decided to harangue ME for reasons I have NO reason to want to know.
                      Apologies for the poor proof-reading; I’m trying to watch the news on tv.

                    • Molly …
                      14 November 2021 at 6:32 pm

                      I’ll bid you good evening at this point, I think, Molly. There are other topics that interest me now far more than your bad attempts at mind-reading & directing the conversation to your requirements. .

                      I asked you to consider maybe not discussing rape in the context of consensual sex. It muddies already difficult conversations. You are unwilling to do that, but it remains a problem in public discourse. I think we can do better if we take care to choose the right words to get our point across.

                      I asked you to change and said why, you considered it and said No.

                      Happy to leave it.

                    • Gezza …
                      14 November 2021 at 6:50 pm

                      “I asked you to consider maybe not discussing rape in the context of consensual sex. It muddies already difficult conversations. You are unwilling to do that, but it remains a problem in public discourse. I think we can do better if we take care to choose the right words to get our point across.

                      I asked you to change and said why, you considered it and said No.”

                      G: You did NO SUCH THING. Go back & re-read what you wrote. Had you said this earlier, then the conversation would have gone completely differently. I am no better a mind-reader than you are. I can only see & respond to what is written, I cannot try to divine some alternate or deeper meaning from the ether or the lines between what you wrote.

                      Good evening, Molly. I suggest we leave it there.

                    • Molly …
                      14 November 2021 at 7:52 pm

                      @Gezza Did go back and look, and you are right I did not ask you to change, just stated I had a problem with it.

                      Any suggestion during this thread was not implicit.

                      It might have gone better, and I'm sorry it didn't.

                    • Gezza …
                      14 November 2021 at 8:05 pm

                      Thank you Molly.

                      I appreciate your response.

                      No harm done. I tend to post saying just what I mean & no more. If you ever find me unclear, or ambiguous, please just ask questions to get me to clarify my intention or meaning. I will answer asap to avoid misunderstandings.

                      I better go get my dinner.

                  • Sabine …
                    14 November 2021 at 7:22 pm

                    Gezza, it sounds you and i area bout the same size. Can you understand why i am tired of trying to keep myself safe from men that you too would props not entertain? Can you understand that women are equally tired?

                    I also don't have children, can't, like so many. But i am aunty to many, and I talk abut consent, control of ones fertility – for men and women btw, and that is what we can do and should do more often, because violence is everywhere.

                    so here we are, both trying to just navigate a world that is violent.

                    Maybe that is what is needed to be understood. That this type of world is good for no one.

                    • Gezza …
                      14 November 2021 at 7:59 pm

                      Yes, I can understand your situation & tiredness with it, Sabine.

                      But the solution doesn’t just lie with men, unfortunately, as some would seem to have it.

                      Women have contributed to this state of affairs with violent men being too prevalent in our society.

                      Until more women accept & understand that the problem will not be solved by #men#, because it’s not just caused by men, we are pissing into the wind trying to employ various male role models to mentor essentially fatherless violent adolescent & older males – probably the most potentially dangerous animal on the planet.

                      That’s how I see this problem at the moment anyway – based on observation & some direct whanau experiences.

                    • Gezza …
                      14 November 2021 at 9:15 pm

                      An NZ expert who understood this:

                    • Sabine …
                      14 November 2021 at 9:22 pm

                      Women have contributed to this state of affairs with violent men being too prevalent in our society.

                      Can you clarify that for me here, because i am not sure what you are saying.

                      Until more women accept & understand that the problem will not be solved by #men#,

                      and also can you clarify why you think that male violence will not be solved by men, and who do you think will solve the problem?

                      Or are we to go back to the good old times when women knew their place, their limitations, and were seen but not heard? And if they got the bash they know why?

                    • Molly …
                      14 November 2021 at 9:25 pm

                      I had a couple of her books and she had some practical, effective, workable solutions, particularly amongst the prison population where she had such success.

                      My only critique is that she had a fairly narrow idea of healthy male expression, which might have meant those who didn't fit within have to look elsewhere..

                    • Sabine …
                      14 November 2021 at 9:33 pm

                      and one thing that i will add to this before its end of day procedures.

                      Not all man are violent of rapists.

                      Not all man are disrespectful to women or men for that matter.

                      But while not all man are rapists, Most rapists are men.

                      And these rapists are prolific, and in many cases serial offenders until they get stopped and locked up.

                      And pretending that this is not true, or just coming from a place of misandry is lazy thinking.

                      And we can not fault women alone for the failure of men to control themselves. Women are not therapy. We do not exist to mother any man who has issues. We are not a therapeutic outlet for men.

                    • Gezza …
                      14 November 2021 at 10:14 pm

                      “‘Women have contributed to this state of affairs with violent men being too prevalent in our society.’

                      Can you clarify that for me here, because i am not sure what you are saying.

                      “Until more women accept & understand that the problem will not be solved by #men#,”

                      and also can you clarify why you think that male violence will not be solved by men, and who do you think will solve the problem?”
                      ……………………………..

                      G: Another day perhaps, Sabine. I can see it’s going to be a hard slog with potential for very terse & perhaps even angry exchanges as you seem to have a very narrow & fixed position on this / these issues.

                      “Or are we to go back to the good old times when women knew their place, their limitations, and were seen but not heard? And if they got the bash they know why?”

                      G: See what I mean? Do you seriously think my parents, & my equally-beloved “adopted” parents-in-law, lived their lives like THAT! We can possibly discuss this another time when you are in a less ridiculously hostile & silly mood.

                    • Gezza …
                      14 November 2021 at 10:21 pm

                      And until if/when we do discuss this again, please have a think about why, if it’s men’s fault youths & men are so violent, then whose fault is it that young females are so viciously attacking each other these days – even on school grounds – & why some of them are even videoing these vicious head-kicking aassaults & putting it on social media so often that they’ve been reoorted &/ or commented on in msm print & tv media at times.

                    • Gezza …
                      14 November 2021 at 10:24 pm

                      Sorry for typos in there. Too tired from my condition. Time for me to retire from this arena.

  17. Molly 17
    14 November 2021 at 10:51 am

    Thanks to KJT's post above, have spent sometime reading articles from E-Tangata, which should be a regular activity.

    Catherine Delahunty's October 10th article "Fighting Poison", brought to mind the 2011 Green Chain documentary. Available to watch on NZ on Screen.

    Both article and documentary are a recommendation for a rainy Sunday morning.

  18. joe90 18
    14 November 2021 at 11:17 am

    Deeply disturbing that this US style menacing of politicians and political opposites, prominent in the UK and Europe for awhile, is here and in Australia.

    https://twitter.com/byroncclark/status/1457901902264365056

    https://twitter.com/Sarah_Alice_X/status/1459399421565669382

    At a conservative rally in western Idaho last month, a young man stepped up to a microphone to ask when he could start killing Democrats.

    “When do we get to use the guns?” he said as the audience applauded. “How many elections are they going to steal before we kill these people?” The local state representative, a Republican, later called it a “fair” question.

    In Ohio, the leading candidate in the Republican primary for Senate blasted out a video urging Republicans to resist the “tyranny” of a federal government that pushed them to wear masks and take F.D.A.-authorized vaccines.

    And in Congress, violent threats against lawmakers are on track to double this year. Republicans who break party ranks and defy former President Donald J. Trump have come to expect insults, invective and death threats — often stoked by their own colleagues and conservative activists, who have denounced them as traitors.

    From congressional offices to community meeting rooms, threats of violence are becoming commonplace among a significant segment of the Republican Party. Ten months after rioters attacked the United States Capitol on Jan. 6, and after four years of a president who often spoke in violent terms about his adversaries, right-wing Republicans are talking more openly and frequently about the use of force as justifiable in opposition to those who dislodged him from power.

    […]

    But historians and those who study democracy say what has changed has been the embrace of violent speech by a sizable portion of one party, including some of its loudest voices inside government and most influential voices outside.

    In effect, they warn, the Republican Party is mainstreaming menace as a political tool.

    Omar Wasow, a political scientist at Pomona College who studies protests and race, drew a contrast between the current climate and earlier periods of turbulence and strife, like the 1960s or the run-up to the Civil War.

    “What’s different about almost all those other events is that now, there’s a partisan divide around the legitimacy of our political system,” he said. “The elite endorsement of political violence from factions of the Republican Party is distinct for me from what we saw in the 1960s. Then, you didn’t have — from a president on down — politicians calling citizens to engage in violent resistance.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/12/us/politics/republican-violent-rhetoric.html

    https://archive.li/QDzTX

    • James 2 18.1
      14 November 2021 at 11:59 am

      I'm not going to defend any noose talk or symbolism – for anyone, regardless of whether it's metaphorical or not. But one nutter doth not make a crowd nor doth establish the counter-point. And shall we talk about the Left too? Such as Hamish Keith's twitter in response to the very recent attempted cancellation (slash drowning?) of Bryce Edwards:

      Hamish Keith: Could you pop Bryce Edwards in the bin with the other contrarian nutters

      alex: Be a bloody big bin – I sort of like the idea of a chain an engine block and a lake

      Hamish Keith: concrete shoes!

      Joe90, I think you're falling for the US-style left-leaning media who parrot anyone protesting anything remotely Right-wing or centrist = bad and violent, and anyone protesting BLM or anything progressive-Left = good and non-violent. Just yesterday, Weka and others had good comments challenging Left-leaning US media obsession with (anti-)Trump and the bad journalism this bias and unthinking can lead to, aka the Steele Dossier.

      Just as we defend the human rights of criminals, we can defend the rights and freedom of people whose views or actions we may otherwise disagree with. Stuff has let loose today on the protestors – I see a clear narrative framing being developed that they're all QAnon loonatics importing Trumpism violence directly to NZ and anybody anti-mandate is a rabid anti-vaxxer.

      But actually no, there's a huge cross-section of teachers, parents, nurses, and ordinary people fed up with continual knee-jerk reaction of "more state coercion, more!". Take a look at France – the home of the Paris commune and socialist presidents – who has huge protests against mandates and lockdowns. Many other countries have also had significant, broad protests against mandates and passports.

      It suits the desired narrative to gaslight such protests as reflecting only a weirdo, 5G-Is-Cancer fringe, and supported by only a tiny sliver of Kiwis. It suits the desired narrative to dismiss concerns that aren't articulated in the highly-educated vocabularly preferred by the chardonnay socialists of Labour.

      I'm waiting for about 5 months time when the Government is "persuading" everyone to get a boost (or lose their vaccine passport) because the vaccine is no longer effective…..and then every says hold on, wasn't the vaccine mandated because it's so effective and you promised "freedom" in return? Just one example of the problems with the vaccine mandate and passports – but that's right, we're all just weirdos and violent loonatics to question it.

      • Peter 18.1.1
        14 November 2021 at 1:05 pm

        "There's a huge cross section of teachers?" Is there? How do you know?

        • James 2 18.1.1.1
          14 November 2021 at 1:21 pm

          I said a huge "cross-section of teachers, parents, nurses, and ordinary people". Please don't purposely misquote me.

          And yes, I believe there is a cross-section from what I've seen, first hand accounts, and interviews with people attending. For me, I'm an educated professional, non-religious, double vaxxed, but hugely against mandates and passports. I know of numerous people of different walks of life who feel the same, even if they didn't protest.

          But the point is what is the right and best action? We have rights specifically to guard against the tyranny of the majority, and to requite strong and clear justification if we would seek to do so.

          Except when it doesn't suit? 3 Waters should go ahead apparently, despite the majority of councils and voters strongly opposed, because the Minister of Local Government thinks its best.

          So the minority is right sometimes…or only when it's a Labour-supporting minority?

          • joe90 18.1.1.1.1
            14 November 2021 at 1:31 pm

            3 Waters should go ahead apparently,

            3 Waters needs to go ahead in my burg because the farmer dominated regional council is unwilling or unable to enforce the conditions of a consent to dispose of dairy effluent.

          • Pete 18.1.1.1.2
            14 November 2021 at 1:50 pm

            The point of what is the right and best action? Is the right and best action what someone genuinely believes having weighed up multiple factors? Is that determined by polls and feedback?

            The right action to deal with covid from the beginning according to some was whatever was different to what actions were decided on.

            No border closures, no lockdowns, no MIQ would have been the choices of (probably) a minority. Those thinking that way certainly saw themselves as right.

            If noisy protest groups and individuals through history 'bucking the system' were proven to be right in the long run and became lauded for their courage, is it possible a government acting against the demands of noisy protest groups might be proven to be right in the long run?

          • KJT 18.1.1.1.3
            14 November 2021 at 4:28 pm

            Three waters was polling about 50/50 before the well funded and very loud "anti" campaign started.

            You have to wonder why the anti three waters campaign is getting so much money, if not from those with an eye on making money from future privatisation. Something which most New Zealanders tend to oppose. After our past experience. Privatisation which will be difficult if three waters goes ahead.

            Over 80% opposed Keys asset sales, which National did regardless.

            If you go by numbers protesting. TPPA, which also polled more than 80% against, asset sales, Generation zero etc, had a lot more people on the street than the latest Pro Pollution, anti-vacc and “freedom” protests.

      • Tricledrown 18.1.2
        14 November 2021 at 2:21 pm

        James2 France is a completely different country to NZ same with the US.

        If your not happy with NZ why not just move to a country that suits your agenda.

        Your long winded rant was more of a reflection of your disappointment that not everything goes your way in our democracy.

        Less is more in politics.

        • Patricia Bremner 18.1.2.1
          14 November 2021 at 4:18 pm

          No trickledrown, "less is not more in politics" I don't agree because…

          We have been there where sweeping changes were made to laws to assist the rich, and when questioned "Akshually it creates jobs" Trouble was the low paid part time contract jobs… We were not even given a choice. Minister of Tourism Key "Huge earnings for NZ" That has been proven to be bunkim. 4000 000 visitors a year, stretching our infrastructure, and costing more than tourism earned the country.

          Endless migrants and overseas students able to be brought in as "Cheap labour" which lowered wages even further.

          Small Government meant poorly funded infrastructure to support all that, so poorly paid nurses teachers and state buildings in poor repair oh and tax cuts for the well off. We don't want more of that.

          But I agree with the rest of your comment.

          James 2 Tickledrown is saying you are inflating your case with generalisations. "A Labour supporting minority" is rubbish. The 3 waters was an election pledge. Labour got a majority. Polls have been held by Labour to check the majority were in favour of covid decisions. The press were allowed to ask endless questions. Now people are being asked to vaccinate to lower pressure on staff in hospital, and staff overseeing home self isolation. James2 mandates have been used since the 1940's. There is a choice. Nobody will hold anyone down. Some intelligent people are fearful for a number of reasons, some do not want the vaccine, many marched drove and protested for their own beef with the Government. 1080 argument, American gun Lobby, Right wing groups Religious groups. As nearly 90% of the eligible are vaccinated with one or two doses there is little resistance, and vaccinating children will bring our eligible to an excellent percentage. Civil disobedience is not new, what is new is the toxic nature of the exchanges through the internet. However listening to some exchanges in the Australian parliament.. we are a tame bunch. Quote "You are a lily livered snake with legs on your pot belly" being a colourful one that comes to mind. Finally marching or disagreeing does not always make the participants right. Boosters have also been around for a long time for obvious reasons. Take your blue glasses off James2.

  19. joe90 19
    14 November 2021 at 11:50 am

    Good news.

    Northwestern University researchers have developed a new injectable therapy that harnesses “dancing molecules” to reverse paralysis and repair tissue after severe spinal cord injuries.

    In a new study, researchers administered a single injection to tissues surrounding the spinal cords of paralyzed mice. Just four weeks later, the animals regained the ability to walk.

    The research will be published in the Nov. 12 issue of the journal Science. The study is now available online.

    By sending bioactive signals to trigger cells to repair and regenerate, the breakthrough therapy dramatically improved severely injured spinal cords in five key ways: (1) The severed extensions of neurons, called axons, regenerated; (2) scar tissue, which can create a physical barrier to regeneration and repair, significantly diminished; (3) myelin, the insulating layer of axons that is important in transmitting electrical signals efficiently, reformed around cells; (4) functional blood vessels formed to deliver nutrients to cells at the injury site; and (5) more motor neurons survived.

    https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2021/11/dancing-molecules-successfully-repair-severe-spinal-cord-injuries/

    • Patricia Bremner 19.1
      14 November 2021 at 4:25 pm

      Wonderful news and could be life changing. The repair of the myelin may be great for pain relief as well. Real breakthrough territory.smiley

    • RedLogix 19.2
      14 November 2021 at 4:33 pm

      Thank you for this. If this therapy pans out it's will be a miracle.

      I know full well the world is not perfect, and I have no expectation it ever will be. To some irreducible degree life is suffering. Every love story that goes on long enough will end in tragedy.

      But perfections are without limit – we can take unconstrained hope from not only how far we have come, but how much further we might go.

      • Blazer 19.2.1
        14 November 2021 at 4:43 pm

        An ephemeral moment.

        All we need to do is get through to the end of this century…and all will be..well..according to?-Uncle Sam?

        • RedLogix 19.2.1.1
          14 November 2021 at 5:02 pm

          My younger brother got a cochlear implant about a decade ago and he's still immensely grateful. So I'm reasonably sure that if this means disabled people get to have a life beyond their wheelchairs or beds – they won't regard it as 'ephemeral'.

      • Patricia Bremner 19.2.2
        14 November 2021 at 8:01 pm

        yes

  20. Sacha 20
    14 November 2021 at 12:08 pm

    Love trumps fear. https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/300453090/let-transgender-people-know-we-belong-thats-really-all-we-want

    I think the key things a parent should remember are, it’s not a choice and hardly ever a “phase”. You don’t have to be an expert you just have to be there; and that it is invaluable to love, be accepting, and provide a safe place.

  21. joe90 21
    14 November 2021 at 1:24 pm

    Fortunately, "Doughnut" hung up her Sten long ago.

    Wearing a military beret and a Polish wartime resistance armband, 94-year-old Wanda Traczyk-Stawska stunned the crowd at a pro-EU rally when she thundered "Be quiet, stupid boy! You lousy bastard" at a member of a far-right group attempting to disrupt the gathering over a loudspeaker.

    https://news.yahoo.com/still-fighting-wwii-warsaw-uprising-062707290.html

  22. Jester 22
    14 November 2021 at 1:49 pm

    Netherlands going in to a partial lockdown as cases surge past 16,000 a day!

    But its not much of a lockdown.

    "The new restrictions are not a hard lockdown; shops and restaurants will stay open but must adhere to curfews as well as social distancing and vaccine certificates while four guests are still allowed in the home. Cinemas and theatres will remain fully open."

    • joe90 22.1
      14 November 2021 at 2:13 pm

      And the local pro-pla*ue mob think they're hard done by.

      Austria is to introduce a lockdown for unvaccinated people in two of Europe’s worst-hit coronavirus regions from Monday and could extend it across the country, the chancellor, Alexander Schallenberg, has said.

      Millions of people not fully vaccinated against Covid in the regions of Upper Austria and Salzburg will be allowed to leave their homes only for reasons considered essential to life, such as going to work, grocery shopping or visiting the doctor, Schallenberg said – measures believed to be unprecedented in Europe.

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/12/austria-province-to-place-millions-of-unvaccinated-people-in-covid-lockdown

    • McFlock 22.2
      14 November 2021 at 5:11 pm

      I don't understand curfews – Netherlands aren't the only place to do them, as I recall.

      I mean, how are they supposed to work to limit disease, getting everyone to rush out in the same 10 hour period? It just seems weird action for action's sake, while still spreading the disease.

      But I guess actually controlling the disease and saving lives might put a hairdresser's into liquidation, and we can't have that.

  23. joe90 23
    14 November 2021 at 2:20 pm

    Wait until the 5g loons hear about this.

    Engineers have successfully transferred digitally encoded information wirelessly using nuclear radiation instead of conventional technology.

    Radio waves and mobile phone signals relies on electromagnetic radiation for communication but in a new development, engineers from Lancaster University in the UK, working with the Jožef Stefan Institute in Slovenia, transferred digitally encoded information using “fast neutrons” instead.

    The researchers measured the spontaneous emission of fast neutrons from californium-252, a radioactive isotope produced in nuclear reactors.

    Modulated emissions were measured using a detector and recorded on a laptop.

    https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/news/nuclear-radiation-used-to-transmit-digital-data-wirelessly

    • Shanreagh 23.1
      14 November 2021 at 3:42 pm

      But, but, but I got one of those in my vaccination. The Slovene language was a bit difficult at first but my on arm language translator has been great. I won't bore you with the upside of this research in practice on my arm and inside me but hopefully some of the laggards will get this as well. wink

  24. JO 24
    14 November 2021 at 4:20 pm

    If it's a rainy Sunday where you are, or if it isn't, this is good:

    https://behindthehedge.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/saul-verne/

    Canadian John Richardson looks at similarities and differences between Jules Verne's novel Paris in the Twentieth Century, which was unknown before his great grandson found the manuscript in 1989, and John Ralston Saul's Voltaire's Bastards, a book still as important as when it appeared in the early 1990s – more so now perhaps, if we still have time to learn.

    Both Verne and Saul describe a world which has lost human meaning, in which individuals carry on within the system they’ve inherited, unquestioning, never imagining the possibility of a different way, let alone a better one, deriving little joy from their petty advancements. Verne’s novel is disturbing because it is at once absurd and prescient. Such a society in fiction seems impossible, but our own society is a pea in the same pod. Saul’s sensibly argued examination is terrifying because he is brutally correct. Modern society is an organism which serves only its meaningless self, not the humans who service it and are indifferently sloughed like so many skin cells or fingernail clippings.

    A technocratic, systematic society always has answers, whether or not those answers are helpful. But, as Saul concludes of societies such as ours

    If the Socratic question can still be asked, it is certainly not rational. Voltaire pointed out that for the Romans, sensus communis meant common sense but also humanity and sensibility. It has been reduced to only good sense, “a state half-way between stupidity and intelligence.” We have since reduced it still farther, as if appropriate only for manual labour and the education of small children. That is the narrowing effect of a civilization which seeks automatically to divide through answers when our desperate need is to unify the individual through questions. (p. 630)

  25. observer 25
    14 November 2021 at 4:46 pm

    October Seymour:

    Dictate the mandate …

    "Act would change the law so setting health and safety measures, such as requiring vaccine certificates, is permitted, and cannot be subject to claims of a breach of privacy or discrimination. That could be done with a change to health and safety laws, though if it was possible through a public health order, it could be implemented more quickly."

    Seymour said the Government, as any other employer, should be able to decide which public sector employees needed to be vaccinated, while private sector employers should decide for their workforces and clients.

    NZ Herald link

    But …

    November Seymour:

    https://twitter.com/David_Cormack/status/1459720581977284608

  27. swordfish 27
    14 November 2021 at 5:51 pm

    .

    This story will no doubt find itself quickly buried & forgotten … not least because it's at odds with the Upper-Middle Woke Establishment's preferred 'narrative' … but gives me at least a modicum of hope that the relentless nightmare of violent intimidation endured by neighbours (often very elderly, like my parents) of the new breed of underclass state house tenant (many so violently anti-social that no landlord would ever rent to them) … will finally, finally receive a much needed dose of sunlight.

    But won't be holding my breath.

    Housing crisis created by the Key Govt … then turned into a living hell for a swathe of Labour's core supporters [as well as more than a few Green voters, incidentally] by the Ardern Govt's tacit No Eviction policy.

    Death threats and abuse: Whangārei pensioners terrorised by gang member, Kāinga Ora neighbours – NZ Herald

    • Sacha 27.1
      14 November 2021 at 5:55 pm

      Thought of your parents straight away when I read that.

    • RedLogix 27.2
      14 November 2021 at 6:05 pm

      It's almost the same damned story but for the names and addresses changed.

    • Molly 27.3
      14 November 2021 at 6:19 pm

      We had a similar case during lockdown last year.

      Police ineffective, and actually less than useful as we later found out that their regular and continued breaking of lockdown was classed as anti-social behaviour that could be used for immediate eviction. The abuse, threats of violence, intimidating practices (chasing family members cars, sitting outside on a makeshift seat staring at our front door for several hours muttering and smoking), were not considered by the police to be anti-social unless they made physical contact. I think the description has been changed now.

      Kainga Ora needs to update its policy. Living next to such neighbours is hellish.

      • RedLogix 27.3.1
        14 November 2021 at 6:33 pm

        A few years back we had a similar problem here in Australia – a woman neighbour in the complex started up all manner of intimidating behaviour toward my partner. Now my partner is no pushover but eventually it got to the point where we were starting to be worried whenever I had to work away from home for any period.

        The cops were actually very good. They immediately took action and spoke with her, and then suggested we buy a little security camera – either real or fake – that recorded what was going on in the common area. They assured us this was entirely legal. The cop told us 'either she's mad or bad, if it's the latter the behaviour will stop'. And it did for almost a year.

        Then she manipulated one of her sons into threatening us – and we immediately took the video evidence to the Police. Which very quickly landed up in the local Magistrates Court. In the end the landlord was issued a removal order by the Court and that was that. It was so smoothly handled I've more or less forgotten about it until now.

        We've rented the entire 8 years that we've been living in Australia now – in general the business is much more closely regulated than NZ and there are very clear obligations on both landlords and tenants – that are enforced.

        • Molly 27.3.1.1
          14 November 2021 at 7:46 pm

          One of the really difficult things to witness was the coercive control this middle-aged (34 yrs) man had over his 17 year old partner. Leaving for days on end without telling her and with no transport, taking her phone, constant reprimanding – we could hear – that went on for several hours.

          She was on the police register for a youth support programme, but they had nothing to offer. She needed a job.

          An unpleasant experience, was witnessing his mother (who employed them both) using her employer status to also control this young woman, so that he would be placated. Almost like watching someone throw a treat to a rabid dog to get him to stop snarling.

          I do believe that state housing has to be available, but there has to be a place where those unsuitable to be housed in neighbourhoods are provided with a place to stay, rather than a blanket ruling that all the obligation belongs to Kainga Ora.

      • KJT 27.3.2
        16 November 2021 at 5:15 pm

        Why does everyone assume the problem is unique to poor people, and/or State house tenants.

        After two lots of extremely abusive neighbours, who owned their homes. Second in an area that was well into the upper class side……

        To the extent we had to move from the second.

        • Molly 27.3.2.1
          16 November 2021 at 5:34 pm

          It isn't unique. The article that originated the discussion was in regard to Kainga Ora's policy of not evicting tenants. IIRC, in this case the neighbouring couple who had resided in the area for years were offered a different tenancy as a solution, rather than Kainga Ora dealing with the disruptive behaviour.

          As you have experienced, an abusive and disruptive neighbour can really damage the wellbeing of others, whether they are tenants or homeowners.

    • pat 27.4
      14 November 2021 at 7:33 pm

      Highlights the issue…what is to be done about the dysfunctional/anti social while any policy change takes a generation or two to take effect?

    • Puckish Rogue 27.5
      14 November 2021 at 7:58 pm

      Bit much to be blaming this on National don't you think:

      'The woman said a Kāinga Ora tenancy manager admitted the agency was powerless to evict antisocial tenants due to a "directive" that protected state housing clients.'

      Who issued the directive and where did it come from?

      • Molly 27.5.1
        14 November 2021 at 8:13 pm

        I believe the policy is that once you are a tenant in a state home, you cannot be moved on unless they offer you another place. In a case such as this, they will be shifting the problem to another neighbourhood and have the same complaints.

        If they want to maintain such a policy, then Kainga Ora needs to have a solution to these situations, that is not just that the neighbours put up with it. The accommodation offered may not be within a neighbourhood, but a specific accommodation unit for troublesome tenants. I don't know if that is a workable proposal.

        • Puckish Rogue 27.5.1.1
          14 November 2021 at 8:18 pm

          I agree.

          Tenants shouldn't have to put up with this behaviour.

        • pat 27.5.1.2
          14 November 2021 at 8:19 pm

          "The accommodation offered may not be within a neighbourhood, but a specific accommodation unit for troublesome tenants."

          AKA prison?

          • Molly 27.5.1.2.1
            14 November 2021 at 8:24 pm

            No. That wasn't my suggestion.

            The problem to be solved is either does Kainga Ora retain the policy or not?

            If it does, how do we ensure tenants (even if troublesome) are not homeless, when they are removed from a tenancy where they are causing harm to the neighbourhood?

            Do we solve that with a different type of accommodation for those tenants?

            • weka 27.5.1.2.1.1
              14 November 2021 at 8:28 pm

              ghetto?

              • weka …
                14 November 2021 at 8:29 pm

                your idea makes sense to me, I just don't trust the government to do it in a way that improves things.

                Maybe Māori know what to do?

                • Molly …
                  14 November 2021 at 8:37 pm

                  I just don't trust the government to do it in a way that improves things.

                  I can't even come up with an alternative proposal, so I'm of little help either. Just thought someone else might be able to.

                  Although I am happy that the abusive neighbour next door is gone, he still exists and needs somewhere to live, as does his partner. (I also think they both need support, particularly in regards to his mental health, aggression and drug use.)

                  For all the talk of wrap-around models, I can't think of how this has been practically rolled out, and maybe accommodation that includes such services nearby or on-site would be a start.

                  • Molly …
                    14 November 2021 at 8:38 pm

                    If that accommodation is located in a low residential density area, that might work. ie. on the edge of commercial or industrial zones but still close to transport and amenities.

              • Molly …
                14 November 2021 at 8:32 pm

                No, not at all. Just Kainga Ora housing where the harm they can inflict on others is reduced, but still healthy homes standards. I would hope there would not be that many of them really, but I know that it only takes one badly behaved resident to impact on a street or neighbourhood.

                The current approach is to leave them there, and that isn't working.

            • pat 27.5.1.2.1.2
              14 November 2021 at 8:41 pm

              I know it wasnt your suggestion but there needs to be some serious consideration of how these types of issues are dealt with….regardless of the cause(s) there are some who have no desire to be 'helped'….the (limited) resources are better devoted to those who do.

              • Molly …
                14 November 2021 at 8:43 pm

                Thanks, pat. I read that wrong.

                I was wondering if there was a solution that someone here could come up with. For some reason I still retain faith in the collective brain…

                • pat …
                  14 November 2021 at 8:53 pm

                  I dont know how to deal with the damage already done but I do know that it makes sense not to continue to keep creating more damaged members of society….we need to do both at the same time, and that may mean conflicting approaches

                • Sabine …
                  14 November 2021 at 9:39 pm

                  Mental healthcare would be the most obvious help that would need to be provided.

                  We lived in social housing when i was a kid, and to be honest anti social behaviour was the norm in many households. Alcohol dependency was one big issue, over crowding another one. Drugs. Petty crime. Prostitution. All the issues that come with people having no money and the need for money.

                  So maybe a full wrap around service as a condition to a flat. So counseling, maybe some job training – to get people out of the property during the day, courses and such. But i don't think Winz would be able to provide any of these services.

                  • Molly …
                    15 November 2021 at 12:00 am

                    Good ideas, and I agree that WINZ not likely to be a good provider,

                    Possibly local community provider framework funded by government?

                    • Sabine …
                      15 November 2021 at 8:14 am

                      I think you would have more chance getting funds holding a fundraiser.

                      But i think the worst cases before they are being housed in public housing need to stay in housing that will offer wrap around services, and then find appropriate housing for them. Not just assign a house, but appropriate housing near a supportive community. And make it clear that housing is also a privilege and that sometimes you have to evict someone if they terrorize their community.

                    • Molly …
                      15 November 2021 at 8:37 am

                      I think that's a workable solution.

      • alwyn 27.5.2
        14 November 2021 at 8:23 pm

        I'm sure it must have been John Key. After all, according to the idiots who claim to be our Government he is responsible for everything, Ignore the fact that he left the job 5 years ago.

        I heard a rumour that they are looking at all the CCTV footage at the Whangarei Hospital to find images of him diverting the main sewer pipe to put it into the walls.

  28. Puckish Rogue 28
    14 November 2021 at 8:09 pm

    Positivity time

    The Black Caps play their third cricket final in quick succession this morning.

    Win, lose or draw this a team that everyone can be proud of, from the spirit in which they play the game to the results they earn they have proven the adage of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts

    But is this fair, after all a 50 over final loss, a test match final win and a T20 final can't be all down to luck or a fluke?

    I think not, this team can stand head and shoulders with the other great teams of world cricket (yes really)

    Overall the finest team NZ has ever fielded, a team that defines the virtues of NZ and an example for everyone to aspire to

    One more game to go and my moneys on the Black Caps, can we do it?

    Yes we can!

    • alwyn 28.1
      14 November 2021 at 8:32 pm

      Please don't get too upset if they lose. It really doesn't matter as it is just some silly game of no real importance.

      It isn't as if it is a Rugby match. Some of them are really important. Not the Test of course. I mean to say, who cares?

      No the true disaster of the weekend was Hawkes Bay being robbed by that lot from Tasman. How could that have happened?

      • Puckish Rogue 28.1.1
        14 November 2021 at 8:39 pm

        Doesn't matter if they lose, making three finals in a row in three different disciplines is winning enough

        Showing kids a different, better and successful way to play sport is winning enough

        Earning the respect of the cricketing world is winning enough

        Upset about the result, not at all. Its how you play the game and the Black Caps play like winners

        'No the true disaster of the weekend was Hawkes Bay being robbed by that lot from Tasman. How could that have happened?'

        The South is superior, in all aspects. Especially rugby coaches.

        • mac1 28.1.1.1
          15 November 2021 at 8:56 am

          Well, they did lose, PR, but I agree with your comments. Absolutely.

          • Puckish Rogue 28.1.1.1.1
            15 November 2021 at 9:09 am

            "Be humble in victory and gracious in defeat'

            Couldn't be more proud of the Black Caps right now, sometimes you just come up against a better team on the day.

            • alwyn 28.1.1.1.1.1
              15 November 2021 at 9:37 am

              I guess you wouldn't be a fan of Vince Lombardi then? The great NFL Coach, after whom the Super Bowl trophy is named put it quite succinctly.

              "Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser."

              • Puckish Rogue …
                15 November 2021 at 9:40 am

                Vince Lombardi only had to prepare for one variation.

                The Black Caps had to prepare for three different variations and made all three finals.

  29. joe90 29
    14 November 2021 at 8:34 pm

    Of course wing nut pro-pla*uers are treating this as proof of something…

    Facts First: The viral video is a staged scene from a professional film. The tantrum-throwing woman is an actor, as is the supposed pilot who challenges her at the end of the video. The video was produced by a man known as Prince Ea, an entertainer and creator of online content who has a history of using authentic-sounding titles about hot-button social issues to get people to watch his scripted footage.

    Prince Ea added a vague three-word disclaimer, "For entertainment purposes," to his initial Nov. 1 Facebook post of the plane tantrum video — under the title "SHE MUST HAVE BEEN HAVING A BAD DAY." But through at least November 11, he kept posting additional versions of the video, under titles like "WHEN THE PILOT CAME OUT" and "WHEN SHE ASKED FOR HIS VACCINE CARD," that included no disclaimer.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/13/politics/fact-check-vaccinated-plane-tantrum-video-prince-ea/index.html.

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