Open Mike 16/08/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 16th, 2018 - 244 comments
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244 comments on “Open Mike 16/08/2018 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    16 August 2018 at 6:22 am

    Good news on a Thursday morning.

    ‘The Overseas Investment Amendment Bill passed its third reading in Parliament on Wednesday night by 63 votes to 57.
    The Government announced in October that it would end the purchase of existing houses by classifying them as “sensitive” under the Overseas Investment Act, and introduce a residency test.
    The Overseas Investment Amendment Bill would stop overseas residents from buying most types of homes, except for new apartments in large developments and multi-storey blocks.”

    Anything opposed by David Seymour and the Real Estate Institute of New Zealand must be a good thing.

    Now let’s stop the foreign ownership of New Zealand agriculture, business.
    The government can be bolder.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/106297829/labours-bill-to-curb-foreigners-buying-new-zealand-houses-becomes-law

    • Ed 1.1
      16 August 2018 at 6:54 am

      More on the story. Better reporting on the story from the Guardian than the corporate msm in New Zealand. How strange………

      ‘’Tenants on our own land’: New Zealand bans sale of homes to foreign buyers..

      The statistic that stands out is
      ‘Only a quarter of adults in New Zealand own their own home, compared with half in 1991,’

      “Associate minister of finance David Parker said the ban would mean housing would become more affordable for locals, and supply would increase.
      “We think the market for New Zealand homes and farms should be set by New Zealand buyers, not overseas buyers,” said Parker in an interview with the Guardian.
      New Zealand housing crisis forces hundreds to live in tents and garages
      Read more
      “That is to benefit New Zealanders who have their shoulder to the wheel of the New Zealand economy, pay tax here, have families here. We don’t think they should be outbid by wealthier people from overseas.”
      In a speech to parliament on Wednesday he said: “We should not be tenants in our own land.”
      Only a quarter of adults in New Zealand own their own home, compared with half in 1991, and in the last five years homeless figures have increased, with some New Zealanders forced to live in cars, garages and under bridges.”

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/15/tenants-on-our-own-land-new-zealand-bans-sale-of-homes-to-foreign-buyers

      • marty mars 1.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 9:48 am

        I thought you despised the guardian as msm lackeys and anti corbyn traitors?

        • dukeofurl 1.1.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 5:37 pm

          Thats its columnists. This was a news story. Do you know the difference?

          • marty mars 1.1.1.1.1
            16 August 2018 at 8:03 pm

            I dunno ed you were throwing a lot of shade their way – seemed a bit of both to me.

        • Morrissey 1.1.1.2
          16 August 2018 at 9:02 pm

          Even Fox News occasionally acts as a news organization, marty. I’ve even heard Mike Hosking make some intelligent comments. Only a fanatic would write off everything that the Grauniad or the Telegraph publishes.

          • marty mars 1.1.1.2.1
            16 August 2018 at 10:03 pm

            It was a genuine and honest question albeit with a bit of bite and a wonderful turn of phase – a wordsmith like you must appreciate that at least.

        • Ed 1.1.1.3
          16 August 2018 at 10:08 pm

          I do.
          However this is a news story.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 1.2
      16 August 2018 at 7:46 am

      Thank you sanity – stop selling our damn crown land!!!

      How to get Kiwibuild to an affordable $300,000, by Stephen Selwood

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12107783

      • Bearded Git 1.2.1
        16 August 2018 at 9:15 am

        He is advocating urban sprawl into the countryside. Much better to build much smaller houses or apartments that are prefabricated (economies of scale here) and on crown land.

        • SaveNZ 1.2.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 9:45 am

          You realise he is Chief Executive of Infrastructure New Zealand, so clearly more corporate welfare to corporations like them, to apparently “solve the housing crisis” with some fairy land scenarios such as $25k sections.

          Someone was telling me that the council alone is charging something like $150k to develop a section in west Auckland, then somehow the money disappears and we have some massive deficit for the infrastructure that the rate payers have to pay for.

          So $150k is half the budget already just to the Auckland council and related ground works and infrastructure just for the site aka power/water, without the land to be paid for or the building to be built and the developments are also driving higher rates going onwards for everyone else in particular the poor areas who have had the biggest rates increases!

          So another fiction bought to us by Granny Herald and the corps that create the messages driving inequality further. (While apparently worrying about the poor).

          • dukeofurl 1.2.1.1.1
            16 August 2018 at 5:45 pm

            Thats mostly a fiction. All councils have development contributions to cover the use of existing assets by a new site.

            I did a calc for a simple subdivision into 2 new lots , one with existing house and 1 new build
            $26,000 or so.

            To pay $150k must be 5 or 6 new houses

            http://dcestimator.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/Default.aspx

            • Bearded Git 1.2.1.1.1.1
              16 August 2018 at 7:34 pm

              Yep Duke you are right…SaveNZ you are wrong.

              Developers love to talk up the costs of development when in fact councils are usually asking quite small amounts as an entirely reasonable contribution towards infrastructure.

            • SaveNZ 1.2.1.1.1.2
              17 August 2018 at 9:40 am

              So does that also include the other fees, such as legal, surveyors, connection to water, sewer, power and telecoms and earthworks, council consents, resource consents etc?

              You are in dream land if you think to get a section ready to build on, it costs $26k.

              The council and their COO’s aka metro water will require multiple bites of the cherry, contributions is just part of it, there are the resource and building consents, the other requirements like legal, surveying, drainage, power, telecoms, often a driveway on site before you can subdivide the section.

              All that is adding up to $150k for an easy section. It is the profiteering model and subcontracting model that we use in NZ, with everything needing a piece of paper by another expert/company or what have you, before you can do anything.

              Anyway from the horses, mouth a friend was quoted $150k PER Section and the site had multiple zoning for houses but it did not go down per section, it was the same and would be $150k x the amount of sections allowed, that is because each section obviously needs the above aka power, a building consent etc

              The council and processes seem do everything possible to stop young families building their own houses and make it as expensive as possible for them.

              Some how though if you are a business and decide to develop on mass for profit, not for living in, the council are all ears and happy to waive all manner of contributions and make the rate payers pay.

              Look at Westgate mall. Developers were given millions from the council to develop it, which has just created litigation and actually sounds like a total failure with locals not using the mall as expected and businesses going bust who are paying a fortune to the Aussie mall owners to be in there, not to mention all the congestion around that site.

      • alwyn 1.2.2
        16 August 2018 at 7:51 pm

        Here is a much more sensible suggestion for how to run KiwiBuild.
        http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/about-massey/news/article.cfm?mnarticle_uuid=97E6E0EB-018B-4AEF-9706-7BC28C1EF40B
        Why should the public of New Zealand provide billions to provide the prizes in a lottery for a lucky set of winners of a KiwiBuild lottery?
        In spite of the stupidity of their Vice Chancellor there is the occasional good idea that comes out of Massey.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.3
      16 August 2018 at 3:16 pm

      Now let’s stop the foreign ownership of New Zealand agriculture, business.
      The government can be bolder.

      Yes the government can be because, IIRC, that’s what the majority of NZers want.

    • SaveNZ 1.4
      16 August 2018 at 3:16 pm

      But are not the apartments the ‘affordable’ housing being proposed. Another screw up and pandering to luxury developments that the locals are having to pay the infrastructure costs for, while then also taxpayers having to pay the infrastructure costs and emergency housing costs of the affordable housing which has not been build yet, miles away…

      Also since you only have to live in NZ 2 years to obtain permanent residency and then be outside of the rules, buy up housing freely, qualify for Kiwibuild and have the locals giving you cheap housing, and after obtaining permanent residency you can work and pay taxes overseas, while getting all the benefits of being a NZ resident such as free health care and schooling and be considered a resident for investment purposes.

      Until the government tightens up residency the whole thing is meaningless.

      Government need to get their heads around global transportation with the concept of permanent residency and quick and easy citizenship. Gone are the days when permanent residents got around by ship and it cost a fortune to come to NZ. Permanent residency has people coming and going daily and it seems to be the local residents living here that seem to be expected to pay for richer people’s habits and lifestyles.

  2. Ed 2
    16 August 2018 at 6:26 am

    The great Steve Bell’s cartoon on the latest “Labour antisemitism” fabrication

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkogtzvX4AEPgfq.jpg:large

  3. bwaghorn 3
    16 August 2018 at 6:29 am

    Does the press in nz need to be rained in .
    What public good came from the publishing of the leaked material on Winston Peters and bridges .?
    All it has achieved is to undermine politics in nz .
    The real story the journalists should be puttuing out is publicly shaming the people who do this dirty work for no real public good.

      • Jenny 3.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 7:57 am

        Great quote from Corbyn. (Thanks Ed).

        “We are the messengers. The media won’t do it for us. Let’s not delude ourselves that our socialist values will ever get a fair hearing in the press, dominated by multi-millionaire owners based in tax havens”

        Jeremy Corbyn

        In my opinion Corbyn’s statement taps into the free speech debate in this country, especially the point that TRP was trying to make; HERE

        Just like every other resource in an inequitable society, free speech is not equitably shared.

        When Don Brash can be barred from Massey U, for his extreme views on race, and it creates a massive furore. But Hone Harawira can be banned from speaking at Auckland U. and nobody makes a fuss.

    • Cinny 3.2
      16 August 2018 at 9:20 am

      Maybe the real story is….. simons government enjoyed traveling around at great expense to the tax payer, they did nothing to change it. simon’s used to such luxury and will defend it to the death.

      • bwaghorn 3.2.1
        16 August 2018 at 9:21 am

        It’s part of his job . I believe Ardern spent $83 k in the lead up to the election .

        • Cinny 3.2.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 9:35 am

          Yeah, but that’s how they justify it…. it’s part of the job etc… it’s just how much it costs etc…. the other person did it too etc…

          When we should be asking, why does it cost so much and how can that cost be brought down? Am sure that’s something everyone can agree on.

          It’s NZ, not appearances are everything USA.

          Many do not buy into a persons false sense of importance due to their chauffeur driven limo rocking on up to the local RSA to appeal to the ‘common man’.

        • Sabine 3.2.1.2
          16 August 2018 at 10:00 am

          so Ardern spend 83 k in the lead up to the election.

          Bridges spends 100.000 after the election.

          the one achieves a win, the other did what?

          Also, did you see where Labour spends 17.000 less then the No Mates Party and is successful?

        • Anne 3.2.1.3
          16 August 2018 at 10:19 am

          There’s quite a big difference though bwaghorn. It was an election campaign… leaders are expected to travel the length and breadth of the country and I doubt Bill English’s expenses would have been any less. Also, Jacinda had only just become the leader so she had an awful lot of catching up to do which would normally have been carried out months sooner. That would have added to the overall cost.

          But to her credit, she was horrified at her expenses and has chosen to “change her habits”.

          • bwaghorn 3.2.1.3.1
            16 August 2018 at 10:33 am

            I’m not knocking Ardern it’s just part of running a democracy .

            • Cinny 3.2.1.3.1.1
              16 August 2018 at 11:51 am

              The spending has now been released.

              Remind me again who is in government?

              Because it’s the opposition spending up big time on perks and travel.

              Labour almost $500k
              Greens around $80k
              NZ First around $100k

              National.. over $1.4 million…

              Spread sheet is on this link… see for yourselves.
              https://www.scribd.com/document/386296144/Disclosure-of-Members-Expenses-From-1-April-to-30-June-2018#fullscreen&from_embed

              Link below… article via stuff on said topic… comments are open…
              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/106310719/full-list-of-mps-expenses-shows-spending-topped-21-million

              • alwyn …
                16 August 2018 at 2:32 pm

                You did notice one thing did you Cinny?
                These figures are only for MPs who are not part of the Executive.
                Thus we have all the National and ACT MPs but only about half of the Labour, Green and NZF members. That is a ratio of about 2:1.
                If you look at the Green MPs for example there are expenses for Davidson, Gharahman, Hughes and Swarbrick but nothing at all for Genter, Logie, Sage and Shaw.
                It is the same for all the Government Parties.
                Your comparison is therefore a silly one and is comparing apples and oranges.

                If you think you claims are sensible I will suggest that I compare the figures for Ministerial spending when they are released and I will point out that the Labour, Green and New Zealand First Parties spent a couple of million and that National spent NOTHING at all. No doubt you will accept that the Government are total spendthrifts and that the Opposition are very sparing in spending the public’s money?

                Incidentally why is Bridges’, (and Mallard’s as well). use of a Limo charged out at a higher rate than the rate used for Ministers? Does anyone know why and what are the different rates?

                • Cinny …
                  16 August 2018 at 5:21 pm

                  Yes I noticed that later, re the exect’s not being included lmao. Like you am interested to see those figures when released.

                  Found a handy dandy link to help me out 🙂
                  https://www.parliament.nz/en/mps-and-electorates/mps-expenses/

                  Most def would like to know re the difference in limo charge rates too, good point Alywn. Fingers crossed someone here may have the answer.

                • dukeofurl …
                  16 August 2018 at 5:50 pm

                  Why has national bill exploded after previous 3 months then. ?
                  Opposition is more expensive , why?

                  • alwyn …
                    16 August 2018 at 7:28 pm

                    Without going into the numbers in detail I would suggest one thing as the main reason.
                    Parliament follows the old fashioned tradition of New Zealand. It shuts down for the month of January.
                    The previous 3 months you mention would be January 1st to March 31st. In 2018 the first Parliamentary sitting day was 30th January. There is no real reason for any of the MPs, not in the Executive, to be in Wellington before the end of January. It doesn’t mean they aren’t working but most of what they are up to will be duties in their Electorate or around their home base. For the majority therefore there won’t be very much travel until Febrary and thus there will be little in the way of expenses until a third of the first quarter of the year has passed.
                    Even the Cabinet all take a good part of the month off. Frankly I can understand why they need a break.

                    As an example the Labour Party, the largest party in Opposition went up from $493k to $666K between the corresponding quarters in 2017. That is an increase of about 35%

      • gsays 3.2.2
        16 August 2018 at 9:27 am

        i agree cinny, he spent north of $1300 a day.

        spent.

        ultimately for his own job security.

        • Cinny 3.2.2.1
          16 August 2018 at 12:11 pm

          And his ‘friends’ are doing the same…

          Top 10 Spenders….

          national leader and MP for Tauranga Simon Bridges: $113,973
          national MP for Clutha-Southland Hamish Walker: $39, 387
          NZ First list MP Mark Patterson (Clutha-Southland based): $37,778
          national MP for Waitaki Jacqui Dean: $34,796
          national MP for Taupō Louise Upston: $34,434
          national MP for Rotorua Todd McClay: $32,561
          national MP for East Coast Anne Tolley: $31,867
          national MP for Auckland Central Nikki Kaye: $31,517
          Labour list MP Kiri Allan (East Coast based): $31,303
          NZ First list MP Jenny Marcroft (Rodney based): $30,734

          Wtf nikki kaye?? !!! Cause central Akld is such a geographically large electorate?…. I don’t think so..

          https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/08/parliament-expenses-released-top-ten-spenders.html

      • greywarshark 3.2.3
        16 August 2018 at 9:48 am

        Politics as a career! No wonder they will fight on the beaches to stay in there when they get such a sense of importance and reasonable surroundings with their own piece of carpet and probably a piot plant and cleaning provided. Back in society with the ordinary people they would have a lot less.

        So 3 terms and you’re out I think. Historical memory doesn’t seem to be much used by them anyway, except to remember the various ways they manipulated the populace.

    • bwaghorn 3.3
      16 August 2018 at 11:55 am

      Way to miss the point you lot . Not one has told me what leaking these things achieves that’s positive.

      • Cinny 3.3.1
        16 August 2018 at 12:01 pm

        Positive achievement from said leak….. easy… momentum to enable the penny to drop for some members of the public.

        Positive possible achievements from the publishing of expense account today….

        An overhaul of the expense spending system?

        On going exposure of how some take advantage of the public purse?

        Or… maybe it will educate the public to make wiser voting decisions in the future. Ok that one might not be so positive for national… bloody good then.

        • bwaghorn 3.3.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 12:17 pm

          It’s good that the expenses are published ; leaking to destabilise any politician who is not breaking the rules so as to embarrass and damage them is rotten and needs to be stopped .

          • Cinny 3.3.1.1.1
            16 August 2018 at 12:22 pm

            Personally I’m usually on the side of a whistler blower.

            The thought police already have enough power.

      • Kevin 3.3.2
        16 August 2018 at 12:42 pm

        It’s not about the money.

        It’s about the factions in national manoeuvering for position.

      • McFlock 3.3.3
        16 August 2018 at 12:52 pm

        Those leaks go hand in hand with the Hollow Men hack and various journalistic investigations (such as into the current deputy police commissioner), though.

        The ones against individual MPs are pretty small beer unless they actually come up with something illegal (or should be, like double-dipping), but it’s all the same tree. Stomp on that, and you end up protecting real scum from seeing the light of publicity.

        • bwaghorn 3.3.3.1
          16 August 2018 at 3:31 pm

          I hope it’s the right leaking I expect better from the left.

          • McFlock 3.3.3.1.1
            16 August 2018 at 3:51 pm

            lol it usually seems to be over the last few years. Little really stamped them into line.

          • gsays 3.3.3.1.2
            16 August 2018 at 4:00 pm

            How about bridges or someone else leaked the expenses early to make the sTory about leaks and a victim?
            Rather than the story about troughing and did you really need to use the limo for that.

            • Kevin 3.3.3.1.2.1
              16 August 2018 at 5:43 pm

              I don’t think he is that savvy and it’s a very high risk play as the public viewpoint has shown. He has been slaughtered on social media over it.

    • Graeme 4.1
      16 August 2018 at 7:12 am

      That’s going to be pushing the boundaries of free speech a bit. The fanboys might find that a little challenging.

      Wonder how long the discussion remains on topic and civil.

      Is this a one man crusade to “correct” the National Party, or part of a wider play to move the party away from the Key legacy of just doing what’s required to stay in power, toward a more ideologically driven party. The current leak of bridges expenses could be part of this.

      • Jenny 4.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 8:07 am

        So Don Brash thinks that John Key failed for not being right wing enough. How surprising.

        Why is this news?

        The wonder really, is why this unrepresentative right wing neo-liberal bigot, who has never won an elected mandate is given such a massive platform by our media.

        (It probably relates to the the observation that Jeremy Corbyn makes about the UK media. 3.1 above)

      • Puckish Rogue 4.1.2
        16 August 2018 at 8:15 am

        “That’s going to be pushing the boundaries of free speech a bit.”

        Why?

        • You_Fool 4.1.2.1
          16 August 2018 at 8:55 am

          Because it is putting down a right wing god…. we all know that the right wing defenders of free speech only defend it when it is being used to put down people they don’t like anyway… How will they all deal with people talking smack about the holy JK?

          • Puckish Rogue 4.1.2.1.1
            16 August 2018 at 10:40 am

            “we all know that the right wing defenders of free speech only defend it when it is being used to put down people they don’t like anyway”

            No we really don’t know that.

            Dr Don Brash has as much right to speak as much as anyone and given his former positions what he has to say should be of interest to anyone with a passing interest in politics

            • dukeofurl 4.1.2.1.1.1
              16 August 2018 at 5:52 pm

              Martyn Bradbury got kicked off Radio NZ for criticizing Key who was PM at the time

          • Cinny 4.1.2.1.2
            16 August 2018 at 5:27 pm

            Wasn’t/isn’t, jk simons mentor?

      • bwaghorn 4.1.3
        16 August 2018 at 9:20 am

        I commend brash for his speaking out . I doubt anything he would have done would have helped though given were his politics is at.

        • marty mars 4.1.3.1
          16 August 2018 at 9:59 am

          Brash is pulling his pud. Why anyone listens to that human kauri dieback disease ill never know. His cred.is bullshit – he’s a failure start to finish imo. A hater still hating on people – even his bedmates.

        • AB 4.1.3.2
          16 August 2018 at 12:21 pm

          Quite – that is the lols part.
          Some of the Key Government’s failures he identifies are correct. The joke is that just about every political, economic and social idea that has wormed its way into Don’s oddly-wired brain, if enacted, would make those problems worse.
          Why I am even talking about that grotesque little caricature of a fully-functioning human is beyond me.

      • greywarshark 4.1.4
        16 August 2018 at 9:49 am

        Graeme Good question.

    • ianmac 4.2
      16 August 2018 at 9:38 am

      Thanks bwaghorn. Brash was dead right with this:

      “Key was exceptionally gifted as a self-deprecating after-dinner speaker. He had enormous political capital. Alas, he almost totally failed to use it to deal with the deep-seated problems we faced in 2008 and still face today.”

      But still they repeat the myth that National were great managers of the economy.

      • Sabine 4.2.1
        16 August 2018 at 10:12 am

        Care to name the deepseated problems from 2008 that we still face today?

        Cause according to the No Mates Party all was well while they ran the show.

        People sleeping in cars? NZ as !!
        Kids going hungry to school? NZ as!!
        People dying while on a waiting list for surgery? NZ! NZ! NZ!
        People getting settled with 10 of thousands of dollars dept just to stay two weeks in emergency accomodation? NZ as!
        Girls getting raped but not getting justice? NZ as!
        Standstill Traffic on crumbling motorways? NZ !!!!!!
        Cowshit in rivers? Wadeable as fuck!
        Working for Welfare = communism by stealth? Only when Labour does it!
        Taxcuts for the well of, GST Increase for everyone else? Rockstar economy!!

        National had 9 years to fix the ‘problems’ they imagined, and they did nothing.
        Oh they filled their private bankaccounts, someone needed to profit from the Tax Cuts :), but surely Mr. Brash is not talking about that? Someone needed to make money from unaffordable housing and Housing Allowances, and i am sure Mr. Brash did not talk about that either? Subsidies for Farmers? But only for farmers, otherwise it would be socialism.

        The no mates party is good for the economy – their economy and that of their benefactors. The rest can get fucked.

        I guess there were not enough Tax cuts for the old fart to appease his freezedried heart.

      • alwyn 4.2.2
        16 August 2018 at 2:37 pm

        Surely you were one of those people who, a couple of days ago were attacking Brash and claiming that he had never said a sensible thing in his life.
        Now he is to be treated as a fountain of wisdom.
        What a spectacular back-flip.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.3
      16 August 2018 at 3:37 pm

      With the help of a buoyant export market and Bill English’s careful stewardship, he presided over a fiscal process which did, commendably, get the budget back into balance,

      LOL

      A government running a surplus is out of balance and is forcing the need for ever more debt that will result in the collapse of the economy.

      Key spoke about the need to increase the export orientation of the economy, and set a target for exports of goods and services of 40 per cent of GDP, up from 30 per cent when he came to office. Today, exports are just 27 per cent of GDP, despite continued buoyancy in world markets.

      This is how you destroy the environment and then society.

      Yeah, all of that was Brash spouting his failed ideology.

  5. AsleepWhileWalking 5
    16 August 2018 at 8:12 am

    The US Congressional Budget Office, which isn’t forecasting any recessions for the next 10 years, has the annual interest payments for U.S. debt hitting a trillion dollars by 2028.

    • corodale 5.1
      16 August 2018 at 8:57 am

      “The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve is required to have seven members. It has three. Two of the current governors were put into their position by President Trump. Two more have been nominated by the president and are awaiting confirmation by the Senate. After these two are put on the Fed’s board, the president will then nominate two more to follow them. . . . [I]t is possible that six of the seven Board members will be put in place by Trump.” (R Bove, CNBC, July2018)

  6. gsays 6
    16 August 2018 at 8:40 am

    so plastic bags are going.
    when do we realise it is supermarkets that we need to do without?

    one of the chains moves all the meat it buys to auckland, processes it then sends it round the country to the stores.

    we must eat locally and seasonally.

    • greywarshark 6.1
      16 August 2018 at 9:42 am

      gsays
      That is good. Trouble is supermarkets and malls have become community meeting places. So we also need less opulent surroundings in covered daily markets.

      • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 4:03 pm

        Trouble is supermarkets and malls have become community meeting places.

        Have never met anyone in a supermarket and I’m pretty sure that you’ll find that I’m in the majority.

        If you want a centralised social gathering place then the supermarket doesn’t fit the bill. The local pub does much better or even a cafe.

    • Sabine 6.2
      16 August 2018 at 10:24 am

      In any city, urban or provincial there are alternatives to supermarkets.

      The change is not gonna come from a business that does well. The change is only going to come from people changing their habits.

      And for what its worth, our local butcher here in provincial NZ is cheaper then the supermarket and is better quality. Same for the local frock makers, why buy made in Bangladesh when you can have made to measure for no more then what a dress is sold in a boutique in town.

      How much value do you put on convenience?

      And finally please can we have covered market places like they do in Europe. T’would be so nice.

    • Anne 6.3
      16 August 2018 at 10:38 am

      On the 1st August, our local NW supermarket went plastic bag free. NW is trialing the scheme with a view to expanding it to all of their supermarkets. It has been a raging success story. The place looks tidier, there’s less noise – had no idea how much noise the rustling of plastic bags makes. Best of all, the wait at the check-outs have halved. If we forget our bags, there are good sized solid brown paper bags available @ 20 cents each. As a regular forgetter, I’m finding the paperbags useful for all sorts of things including bin-lining.

      Haven’t met anyone who is not super happy with the change over.

      Supermarkets are here to stay gsays so lets make sure they improve their services.

      • ianmac 6.3.1
        16 August 2018 at 11:55 am

        Good to have the bags out but now I have to buy 50 kitchen-tidy bags for $5. (10cents a bag) Might consider no bags for my Kitchen-tidy and wash it out each time.

        • mac1 6.3.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 12:56 pm

          Thats what I do with my kitchen scraps bucket- compost the contents and sluice out the bucket. Mrs Mac1 will go to lining the kitchen tidy with newspaper, she says.

          Just thinking though that plastic waste disposal bins are all plastic-bag lined, and the Council still gives us fifty bags a year for household waste……

          We might have to…..”Substitute” by The Who

          “Substitute your lies for fact
          I can see right through your plastic mac….

          My fine-looking suit is really made out of sack…..”

          Prescient stuff from 1966!

      • McFlock 6.3.2
        16 August 2018 at 1:18 pm

        personally I’d prefer a paper bag option if I don’t have the reusable bag on me.

        The cynic in me says that the reason supermarkets are being responsive to this is because they get to sell reusable bags and don’t have to by thousands of plastic bags a day.

        they’ve essentially got us paying for what they provided for free, and thanking them for it, lol

        • veutoviper 6.3.2.1
          16 August 2018 at 4:21 pm

          Each supermarket seems to do their own thing. Mine gives a 5 cent discount per own bag used.

          I also would prefer a paper bag option if you forget your own bags or need a bag.

        • Anne 6.3.2.2
          16 August 2018 at 4:41 pm

          You are a cynic McFlock. 🙂

          Maybe the plastic bag is cheaper to produce than the paper bag. These are the solid, stand-up paper bags.

          • veutoviper 6.3.2.2.1
            16 August 2018 at 5:14 pm

            I think you are right Anne that those good solid paper bags are much more expensive than plastic bags. Used boxes are OK if you have a car, but not if you are walking or on public transport.

            Completely off topic, I have been meaning to send you this – maybe this is what a s………. c…. looks like. LOL.

            https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/NZI19020201.2.7.5

          • McFlock 6.3.2.2.2
            16 August 2018 at 5:57 pm

            Yeah if paper bags were cheaper then plastic bags wouldn’t be a problem.

            But single use paper wouldn’t break the bank or the environment, and they wouldn’t bloody cost $5, either.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.4
      16 August 2018 at 4:00 pm

      A point echoed in Why we can’t afford the rich. The authors point out that it’s ridiculous to grow the produce in Scotland, send it to South England for processing and then send it back with all of the associated extra costs particularly GHG emissions.

      It’s a point I’ve been making for years as I look at the ridiculousness of international trade. It’s people holding on to the 18/19th century delusional Economies of Scale theory put out by the economists.

  7. Puckish Rogue 7
    16 August 2018 at 8:43 am

    Bit early for Labour to be feeling the pressure or is it just Hipkins?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=12107631

    ‘The accusation was not from Ardern herself but from another bloke, Education Minister Chris Hipkins, who took umbrage when Bridges suggested that muttering by Grant Robertson was supplying Ardern with the answers.’

    ‘Bridges referred to Robertson as “the ventriloquist,” a reference to the frequency with which Robertson actually does answer other people’s questions under his breath.’

    • You_Fool 7.1
      16 August 2018 at 9:00 am

      The thing is, that comment by Bridges was about the best he could muster… he looks way out of his depth

    • mac1 7.2
      16 August 2018 at 9:36 am

      I listened to that exchange as I was following question time that day. Members had been grouchy, with the Speaker unusually busy with controlling across House exchanges.

      As for the Hipkins ‘apology’ it could have been seen as an example of a man defending his female leader, which I can understand fully. When a woman is attacked in a mysogynist way, the challenge to that offending male best comes from another man. As an example, when I did workshops with facilitators who were female, it was the duty of a male facilitator to moderate the language of the participants when especially the ‘c’ word was used- quite daunting when the user was a prison inmate. But in the spirit of those workshops offering alternatives to violence, it always went well.

      The adversarial nature of the House at Question Time breeds different behaviours to that. Some members are constantly rebuked by the Speaker for their constant barrage of comments. A frequent offender is the Leader of the Opposition who often asks a question and then barracks rather than listening, a behaviour he must have learnt since his time as a Crown prosecutor in our criminal courts. I can imagine the learned judge’s response to a barracking mysogynist lawyer who had just asked a question of a witness in a trial…….

      • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1
        16 August 2018 at 10:08 am

        “As for the Hipkins ‘apology’ it could have been seen as an example of a man defending his female leader, which I can understand fully. When a woman is attacked in a mysogynist way, the challenge to that offending male best comes from another man.”

        What’s mysogynistic about this:

        ‘suggested that muttering by Grant Robertson was supplying Ardern with the answers.’

        • Anne 7.2.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 10:53 am

          ‘suggested that muttering by Grant Robertson was supplying Ardern with the answers.’

          Except it turned out he was doing nothing of the sort. He was just “agreeing” with something she said. Normal practice on both sides. It’s become a part of the Nat. Party meme to try and instill in people’s minds that Jacinda Ardern is a woman who is not up to the job. That is misogynist-like behaviour. It is why Hooton is pushing the same meme as hard as he can – calling her a feather weight etc.

          • mac1 7.2.1.1.1
            16 August 2018 at 11:31 am

            Thanks, Anne.

            Mrs Mac1 agreed when I described saying that a woman needed a man alongside her to supply the answers was mysogynistic.

            It is wrong, just as it would be for me to say that Paula Bennett’s behaviour alongside her male leader is anything more than over-egged supporting performance.

            Bennett understands mysogyny, as does Collins. The rebuke from Hipkins would also have been a reminder to those two, the other women in National’s caucus, and also any National males with the credibility to stand up to Bridges’ behaviour. Hipkins’ comment was a response, I believe to more thn one instance of mysogyny.

            It’s reminiscent of that unfinished saga of the mysogynistic comments heard by Speaker Mallard from the National side. Did National’s strong women give a serve to their offending caucus fellows, even on the quiet?

            I heard Bridges at his public meeting twice refer to “Aunty’ Helen. What is that if not partly a mysogynystic reference to a persons’ gender when the behaviour complained of could be also described without gender-critical language?

            • Anne 7.2.1.1.1.1
              16 August 2018 at 11:44 am

              Well, the line they are following which was demonstrated by Bridges when he used the word “ventriloquist” is that Grant Robertson is the real leader of the Labour Party and Jacinda is just his puppet.

              It’s demonstrably untrue. Jacinda is very much in charge, but everyone knows she and Grant are close personal friends and have been for years. Of course she values his judgement in the same way she values all of her friends’ views.

            • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1.1.1.2
              16 August 2018 at 12:22 pm

              I’d suggest that the PM of NZ needing a man to ride to her rescue is pretty damn sexist

              • mac1 …
                16 August 2018 at 12:35 pm

                If you see that she needed a man to ride to her rescue, then that’s your bias.

                If you see it as men’s business to clear up men’s dirty business, then that’s what I meant.

                You see, Puckish, there are some who would say that a woman defending her own gender under gender specific attack as being “politically correct”. or “needing to get out more”, or “unable to take a joke”, or ‘needing to go back to the kitchen.”

                Much better that a man say to other men where the boundaries of offensive behaviour lie.

                And I’m also not riding to anyone’s rescue. I’m standing for my own beliefs, for my standards, for my own values.

                I’ve never been on a horse, btw, to go riding to the rescue, though I might be tilting at windmills at the moment………..

                • Puckish Rogue …
                  16 August 2018 at 12:54 pm

                  I was referring to Grant Robertson riding to the rescue

                  • mac1 …
                    16 August 2018 at 12:57 pm

                    That windmill’s still a-spinning…….

                  • Anne …
                    16 August 2018 at 1:27 pm

                    You are quite capable of finding the truth out for yourself but since you are reluctant to do so, here is the video which shows you are wrong:

                    https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=202158

                    The relevant part starts @ 3:40 mins in.

                    Jacind’as answer to the accusation re- Robertson is delayed due to the antics by – or on behalf of – Simon Bridges. Chris Hipkins was right. Bridges was behaving like a “chauvinistic pig”.

                    Far from issuing instructions, Robertson was reiterating what Jacinda had just said with the words “we didn’t” in answer to a false claim made by Bridges.

                    Strewth… you have to spell it out for these rwnjs sometimes.

                    • Puckish Rogue …
                      16 August 2018 at 2:11 pm

                      Labour has form in helping out each other so its not that far out of the realms of possibility it was happening here

                      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12069352

                      Bridges asked if Little was right to say NZ First was at the table when Cabinet agreed to reforms including three strikes. Enter Robertson, sitting two down from Peters, who said quietly to Peters: “Yes.”

                      Peters stood: “Yes.”

                      The next question asked if there was a breach of protocol around consulting coalition partners.

                      Grant Robertson mouthed “no” at Peters.

                      Peters stood: “No.”

                      The ease of this prompted a delighted laugh from Robertson until he realised media had spotted him and Peters’ supply of answers dried up.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/98982731/labour-has-a-problem–we-need-to-talk-about-acting-prime-minister-kelvin-davis

                      Every question Davis had thrown at him on Tuesday was answered first in muffled tones by ministers Phil Twyford, Chris Hipkins and Grant Robertson. Davis then stood up and repeated the answers.

                      The first and second time could have been written off as them helping him get started but it was just absurd when it continued for the entire stretch of supplementary questions.

                      The ministers didn’t even try to hide the fact they were doing it and Davis blatantly looked to them every time before rising to his feet.

                    • mac1 …
                      16 August 2018 at 2:28 pm

                      What a bugger. Trusting your colleagues, listening to your friends, helping others out.

                      Then put that alongside the collegiality shown Party Leader Bridges by caucus member Collins who contradicted her leader by denying that they had had a discussion when the leader specifically said that he had done so with Ms Collins both by phone and the next day in person, over the question of fake news tweets.

                      “Ms Collins also denied that National’s leader Simon Bridges had spoken to her about her actions – even though he said he had.” RNZ

                  • McFlock …
                    16 August 2018 at 1:27 pm

                    but he wasn’t. Which was Hipkins’ point, in fact.

            • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1.1.1.3
              16 August 2018 at 12:27 pm

              “Mrs Mac1 agreed when I described saying that a woman needed a man alongside her to supply the answers was mysogynistic.

              In that context sure but thats not the context it was used

            • alwyn 7.2.1.1.1.4
              16 August 2018 at 2:51 pm

              “heard by Speaker Mallard from the National side”
              Do you mean the claim Trevor made that he had heard something, with his deaf ear no less, that nobody else heard and was nowhere to be found on the tapes recording everything said in the house?
              I think Mallard was imagining things. Probably he was just awaking from a little snooze after lunch.

              • mac1 …
                16 August 2018 at 3:29 pm

                Or alternatively, and possibly sharpened by Occam’s razor a little more than Speaker Mallard’s hearing, the Speaker did hear but could not identify the source of the remark. The perpetrator did not have the gumption to own up. The answer with the fewest assumptions, as required by Occam’s razor, is that The Speaker heard but the comment maker did not own up. The alternative is to postulate that the Speaker was nodding off, is hard of hearing and misheard a comment.

                It must be noted that Speaker Mallard has not misheard anything at any other time in the same way.

                It must also be noted that Speaker Mallard requested someone on the Government side to own up to some unparliamentary comment today. MInister Fa’afoi owned up, had to withdraw and apologise and cost his side five supplementary questions. Note- he owned up to what the Speaker heard.

                As a side-word, I thought Speaker Mallard ruled fairly and firmly today.

          • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1.1.2
            16 August 2018 at 12:21 pm

            “Party meme to try and instill in people’s minds that Jacinda Ardern is a woman who is not up to the job”

            No, shes not to the job irrespective of her gender

            • McFlock 7.2.1.1.2.1
              16 August 2018 at 1:29 pm

              meh

              On her worst day, she’s a better PM with one hand holding the baby than Key ever was.

              When did you last hear of a PM changing their schedule specifically to meet protestors?

            • mac1 7.2.1.1.2.2
              16 August 2018 at 3:38 pm

              Not up to the game, eh? She controls her question time fluently and forthrightly, she fronts up to public demonstrations (where were the Opposition- cowering from the fear of the nine long years’ pigeons coming home to roost with a preliminary flyover load-lightener), she has a success rating four times Mr Bridges and twelve times that of Ms Collins as preferred PM, she is on top of her portfolio and her international rating is high.

              Her main opposition even conceded in a public meeting which I attended last week that he probably would not win in 2020.

              Her opposition yielded to her being up for the job for six years.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                16 August 2018 at 3:56 pm

                Where were the unions over those same nine years? Collecting the dues and doing sweet FA

                “She has a success rating four times Mr Bridges and twelve times that of Ms Collins as preferred PM”

                Wow the PM has a higher success rating than the opposition, thats just so impressive. Whats her rating in comparison to John Key or Helen Clark?

                “she is on top of her portfolio and her international rating is high.”

                Easy to be on top of your portfolio when you have help from other ministers and I doubt her rating is as high John Keys was, or Helen Clarks for that matter

                “Her main opposition even conceded in a public meeting which I attended last week that he probably would not win in 2020.”

                John Key went out on his own terms and Helen Clark lost and then quit, theres a lesson there about going out on top

                “Her opposition yielded to her being up for the job for six years.”

                I’ve said in previous posts that shes as good as John Key was and that National shouldn’t underestimate her

                • Craig H …
                  16 August 2018 at 9:01 pm

                  We were out on strike at various points during the last National term as well as during the current Labour term – why do you ask?

                • mac1 …
                  16 August 2018 at 11:05 pm

                  “I’ve said in previous posts that shes as good as John Key was and that National shouldn’t underestimate her.”

                  “No, shes not (up) to the job irrespective of her gender”

                  How do you reconcile these two statements of yours? They appear quite contradictory, unless you believe that Key was not up to the job?

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    17 August 2018 at 9:42 am

                    I should have expanded on that, my bad. She is as good a communicator as john Key and maybe even a better figurehead but she doesn’t have anything more than a variation of “absolutely positividiy” in anything she says but she doesn’t need anymore than that because people warm to her

                    People liked John Key, people like Jacinda Ardern but it doesn’t mean shes up to the job of being a prime minister

          • Gosman 7.2.1.1.3
            16 August 2018 at 1:26 pm

            No, that she is a lightweight politician (like Kelvin Davis) who is not up to the job. Unless you think the criticism of Kelvin Davis along those same lines is racist.

        • veutoviper 7.2.1.2
          16 August 2018 at 11:54 am

          I think the exchanges yesterday, particularly by Hipkins, were a little more tense than usual in light of the teachers’ strike and the march on Parliament which Hipkins and Ardern had fronted up to shortly before Question Time. ( (I noted Tracey Martin and Carmel Sepuloni also alongside Ardern and Hipkins, amongst others.)

          IMHO Hipkins’ calling Bridges a “chauvinist pig” was a more general comment than a direct response to Bridges’ own comment re “expecting a response from the ventriloquist” which of itself is not really misogynistic. But I do agree with Anne and Mac 1 that Hipkins’ remark was intended as a wider warning, response to Bridges’ and certain other Nats and their supporters misogynistic remarks re Ardern and others (including their own women – eg Bridges to Bennett “get me some water, luv”.

          The whole exchange is a little more clear from the video but much clearer from the Hansard transcript.

          Video – https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=202158

          Draft Hansard – https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/combined/HansD_20180815_20180815

          Here are extracts from the draft transcript (bolds are mine):

          Question No. 2—Prime Minister

          … Hon Simon Bridges: With teachers contemplating two-day strikes, does she intend to spend the next two years avoiding any responsibility and not actually fixing the problem? [Interruption]

          Mr SPEAKER: Order! Order! Settle down please.

          Hon Paula Bennett: A good question—a bloody good question.

          Mr SPEAKER: Paula Bennett—that’s a warning. I call the right honourable Prime Minister.

          Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I have to say I find that line of questioning a bit rich given that the first offer made by this Government is double what that last Government allowed teachers to work under. Double—because we acknowledge that we’ve been left and teachers have been left carrying a neglect of nine years’ under-resourcing of teacher-aides and support. We’ve rectified some of that in the last Budget. We scrapped national standards. We doubled some of the funding that they receive on an operational level. We acknowledge the issues that teachers striked and marched on today. We are working with them to fix the problems we inherited.

          Hon Simon Bridges: Then why did her Government prioritise $2.8 billion for a fees-free tertiary policy that isn’t delivering any extra students over additional funding for teachers’ pay and the other issues she mentioned?

          Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: First of all, that is not correct. Second of all, one of the issues that we have is barriers to learning. One of the first people I met after that announcement was made was someone who was entering into tertiary education to be a primary school teacher off the back of our announcement. We have a shortage of teachers. We have barriers to learning because of cost. We’re addressing both of those issues.

          Rt Hon Winston Peters: Just to get this patently clear, what term or years of recent politics were the teachers today on the forecourt of Parliament specifically saying they are protesting against?

          Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The last nine years.

          Hon Simon Bridges: I ask again: why did her Government prioritise $2.8 billion for a fees-free tertiary policy that isn’t delivering any extra students over additional funding for teachers’ pay? [Interruption]

          Mr SPEAKER: Order! Order! The Prime Minister will sit down. I saw what I’m taking to be a response—am I right?

          Hon Simon Bridges: From me?

          Mr SPEAKER: Was the member responding to a similar—Well, I’m hearing some people saying yes and some people saying no.

          Hon Gerry Brownlee: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.

          Mr SPEAKER: The Hon Gerry Brownlee will, I’m sure, help me.

          Hon Gerry Brownlee: Thank you. I think what the Leader of the Opposition was doing was suggesting to Grant Robertson that this is not instruction time.

          Mr SPEAKER: Can I ask—first of all I’m going to ask the Hon Grant Robertson: did he do a finger-pointing exercise?

          Hon Members: No.

          Hon Simon Bridges: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.

          Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.

          Mr SPEAKER: I’ll hear Simon Bridges.

          Hon Simon Bridges: I was anticipating an answer from the ventriloquist.

          Mr SPEAKER: Right, that member will now stand, withdraw, and apologise.

          Hon Simon Bridges: I withdraw and apologise.

          Hon Chris Hipkins: That was offensive—chauvinistic pig.

          Mr SPEAKER: Order! Mr Hipkins. Mr Hipkins will now stand, withdraw, and apologise.

          Hon Chris Hipkins: I apologise for calling the Leader of the Opposition a chauvinistic pig.

          Mr SPEAKER: As a result of that non-withdrawal, the Opposition will have an extra five questions. That withdrawal will now be made in accordance with the Standing Orders.

          Hon Chris Hipkins: I withdraw and apologise.

          Mr SPEAKER: Right, we go back, and I am going to ask Simon Bridges to ask his question again, because I can’t remember what it was.

          Hon Simon Bridges: Then why did her Government prioritise $2.8 billion for a fees-free tertiary policy that hasn’t delivered a single extra student over additional funding for teachers’ pay?

          Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: The Minister of Finance, for those who are interested in what he muttered, said, “We didn’t.” I’m going to expand substantially on that answer, because in the last Budget we prioritised funding for 1,500 more teachers. We gave a 45 percent increase for operational funding. We provided the first core early childhood education funding increase in nearly a decade. We tripled learning support funding to $272 million. That is called prioritising education. It’s called prioritising children. If that side of the House thinks that everything that was brought to Parliament’s forecourt today was all about us, then where were they on the steps of Parliament?

          ….

          Hon Simon Bridges: Why on Monday did her Government prioritise hundreds of millions of dollars more funding for new trees than it has for the entire primary school teacher wage settlement?

          Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I say, that pay settlement happened to be double what that Government invested in the sector. But I’d also say that that announcement wasn’t just about the 1,000, possibly 2,000, jobs that it would create; it was also about the environment and it was about erosion. According to some of the ads the National Party has put out—I’m told the Leader of the Opposition cares about the environment; I’m yet to see any proof of it.

          Hon Simon Bridges: That’s allowed is it?

          Mr SPEAKER: Yes, it is allowed in response to the type of questions that the Leader of the Opposition’s been asking.

          Hon Simon Bridges: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What was anything other than straight about the question I asked?

          Mr SPEAKER: I suggest that if the member wants an answer to that, he looks at the tapes.

          Hon Simon Bridges: Why on Monday did her Government prioritise hundreds of millions of dollars more for trees than for the primary school teachers’ settlement, when they’re protesting outside today?

          Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: As I pointed out, that initial offer—because we are in the middle of a negotiation—was still double what that last Government put into teachers’ salaries. It’s not the only issue that we of course are discussing with them; we’re discussing their workload, non-contact time, professional development—all issues that weren’t prioritised by the last Government.

          Hon Simon Bridges: Does she agree with Labour leader Jacinda Ardern, who said, “We will not” have national strikes under a Government she leads.

          Rt Hon JACINDA ARDERN: That was in a direct question around fair pay agreements and I stand by it.

          • ianmac 7.2.1.2.1
            16 August 2018 at 12:02 pm

            Well done Veuto. Black and white text is better than memory.

            • mac1 7.2.1.2.1.1
              16 August 2018 at 12:24 pm

              Thanks, also, Veutoviper. Was the reference to the ventriloquist mysogynistic?

              Firstly, it is derogatory. The ventriloquist does use a ‘dummy’ after all. Was it gender specific? No, but it’s also about context, patterns and history of behaviour, and non-verbal communication as well. Bridges has a history.

              • Bewilderef …
                16 August 2018 at 1:53 pm

                Not sure if your looking for a white night to put the fear of god into your enemy Skippy Really cuts the mustard, Likewise I am sure Ardern can look after her self Likewise not sure if Bridges comment it is a sexist a comment as insult could be made to a women or man, it’s more about Robbo been a puppet master, also does it for Kelvin “I dunno what’s really going on” Davis I think sloppy got all a bit precious to be fair

              • veutoviper …
                16 August 2018 at 3:11 pm

                Mac1, I agree with you that the ventriloquist reference was derogatory and possibly misogynistic. I possibly did not make this clear in the second part of my second para when I said:
                But I do agree with Anne and Mac 1 that Hipkins’ remark was intended as a wider warning, response to Bridges’ and certain other Nats and their supporters misogynistic remarks re Ardern and others (including their own women – eg Bridges to Bennett “get me some water, luv”.

                Cheers.

          • JC 7.2.1.2.2
            16 August 2018 at 9:38 pm

            kapai..

    • Draco T Bastard 7.3
      16 August 2018 at 4:13 pm

      It’s just National and their typical dirty politics.

      • Puckish Rogue 7.3.1
        16 August 2018 at 4:16 pm

        Labour over-promised during the election and are now having to come up with the goods and are now feeling the pressure

        Pressure doesn’t build character, it revels it so it’ll be interesting to see how Labour handle being under the pump

        • Draco T Bastard 7.3.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 4:23 pm

          Labour seem to be handling it quite well.

          National… not so much.

          • Puckish Rogue 7.3.1.1.1
            16 August 2018 at 4:25 pm

            For now maybe but a weeks a long time in politics

            • Draco T Bastard 7.3.1.1.1.1
              16 August 2018 at 8:43 pm

              It’s been nearly a year and National keeps going from bad to worse.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                17 August 2018 at 9:45 am

                Well ackshully National got 44.45% of the vote on election day and are currently (kiwiblogs poll of polls) 45.1% so no not going from bad to worse

                • mac1 …
                  17 August 2018 at 5:11 pm

                  There are other indicators. Popularity of the leader, quality of questioning, performance in general in the House, quality of news releases, cogency of argument, discipline. How does National do with that stuff?

  8. SaveNZ 8
    16 August 2018 at 8:43 am

    Union admonish meatworks’ hiring overseas workers

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/business/364180/union-admonish-meatworks-hiring-overseas-workers

    Maybe to do this

    “Affco was instead taking on inexperienced workers who agreed to individual contracts, the union said.”

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/298328/workers-laid-off-days-after-returning-to-job

    The government should stop it. The taxpayers are having to pick up the slack, health services, infrastructure, carbon costs, lack of income taxes and ACC for all these overseas workers being used by low life employers to lower wages and conditions, keep contracts temporary, while laying off local workers and then surprise surprise, wreck their own industry by making their low wage, high stress, temporary work with arbitrary lays offs attractive to people in NZ to go into that industry, and then wah, wah, crying they can’t get people?

    Cheap overseas workers, being ‘sold’ like cattle from employment traffickers, now seems to be a new way to pretend to save money and put the risks of their business onto the taxpayers, exploiting overseas people by lying to them and relying on them not understanding NZ law and not speaking very good english.

    You used to have to prove beyond any doubt with immigration, that you could not get a local worker and then it would cost $10k a worker to get someone in from overseas, not just herd people in to be exploited with traffickers, like the cattle they are slaughtering.

    Soon you get the US system, when only a few players are in the meat industry and the products are so polluted with fecal matter due to the low standards of workers that they have to chorinate the meat and have e coli deaths from eating it.

    Meanwhile taxpayers are paying people the dole in NZ. Somethings is wrong with this picture!

    • millsy 8.1
      16 August 2018 at 10:41 am

      That situation shows that the ‘labour crisis’ comes down to employers being picky, more than anything else.

      • SaveNZ 8.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 2:23 pm

        Who is going to be able to get a rental or mortgage in all these out of the way areas with careers that are temporary and casual? If they want to get good and experienced staff and have stability in their employment then you have to have stable employment conditions. The industries that don’t do that, plus pay poor wages to boot, are the ways crying they can’t keep anybody.

        In the 1970’s and even 1980’s fruit picking and freezing work was good money and people wanted to do it. Now it’s hard work, poorly paid, dangerous and casual. And those industries are coining in the money for exports, but clearly the staff doing the work aint getting a share of it. Nor are the taxpayers with the low wages being offered.

        The government needs to say, F-ing pay more and have better conditions to keep staff, not pander to the whinner’s who can’t keep anybody because they keep laying people off in down turns and then come crying crocodile tears to government because they can’t get anyone or don’t want anybody in a union or whatever their issue is.

        • SaveNZ 8.1.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 2:26 pm

          When is someone going to ask NZ industry why, if they are shipping around US 37 billion of products a year, they feel the need to pay minimum/poor wages to their workers with poor conditions and expect the taxpayers to give them hand outs for their wage bills and issues like accomodation that they seem unable to solve?

          Looks like plenty of money in the pot for these industries to pay workers well, and actually share the profits fairly in particular to those who do the hard labour at the bottom end and the primary producers.

          Export earnings.

          Dairy, eggs, honey: US$10.2 billion (27.6% of total exports)
          Meat: $4.7 billion (12.7%)
          Wood: $3.3 billion (9%)
          Fruits, nuts: $1.9 billion (5.1%)
          Beverages, spirits, vinegar: $1.4 billion (3.7%)
          Fish: $1.1 billion (3.1%)
          Cereal/milk preparations: $1.1 billion (2.9%)
          Machinery including computers: $978.6 million (2.6%)
          Modified starches, glues, enzymes: $884.6 million (2.4%)
          Miscellaneous food preparations: $873.2 million (2.4%)

          Likewise tourism, worth over $12 billion is also as an industry that apparently has difficulty in paying staff well either and require government wage top ups for many of their workers. Nor do they seem keen to clean up exploitation.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.2
        16 August 2018 at 4:16 pm

        It’s not so much about the businesses being picky as them working to lower wages so as to boost profits for the bludging shareholders.

        Quoting Why we can’t afford the rich:

        Workers always have to produce not only enough to provide for their own pay and all the other costs of production and distribution, they also have to produce enough to provide for owners of businesses, shareholders, landowners, money-lenders, speculators and value-skimmers.

        And the bludging owners of businesses, shareholders, landowners, money-lenders, speculators and value-skimmers always want more.

  9. Adrian Thornton 9
    16 August 2018 at 8:46 am

    I thought it was quite interesting in light of a post I did a couple of days ago on racial bias at RNZ, that BBC stalwart Andrew Neil is being exposed as being anything but a neutral player in his political leanings…

    “If the BBC is politically neutral, how does it explain Andrew Neil?”
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/11/bbc-andrew-neil-media-politics

    In the quote below, substitute the RNZ for BBC and think of David Farrar, regular guest on The Panel with Jim Mora.
    Now before you hit the roof, I know Farrar is just a guest, but as I have pointed out to Mora on many occasions, he never has the equivalent voice from the Left, so he has no balance on his show. I have also called out Mora for quoting from The Kiwi blog as if it is a legitimate news site.
    I won’t post his response to my questions, but will say his defense was pretty flimsy.

    Owen Jones
    “Imagine this. The BBC appoints a prominent radical leftist, a lifelong Bennite, the chairman of the publisher of a prominent leftwing publication no less, as its flagship political presenter and interviewer. This person has made speeches in homage of Karl Marx calling for the establishment of full-blooded socialism in Britain, including a massive increase in public ownership, hiking taxes on the rich to fund a huge public investment programme, and reversing anti-union laws. “

    • Dennis Frank 9.1
      16 August 2018 at 9:08 am

      A few years back he had the bomber, who got a tad too rabid & was banned by RNZ management. In regard to why another leftist didn’t get wheeled in to replace him, you have a valid point. Personally I think the binary frame is antiquated anyway. Any media who use it are trying to get away with discriminating against the third of the electorate who aren’t left or right.

      • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 4:22 pm

        Personally I think the binary frame is antiquated anyway.

        True.

        We need to be sticking to reality rather than people’s reckons and ideologies.

    • Gabby 9.2
      16 August 2018 at 9:52 am

      They used to have the Trotsker until his head got too big to fit through the studio door.

  10. Carolyn_Nth 10
    16 August 2018 at 8:58 am

    Elizabeth Warren’s Bill to restructure capitalism in the US – not ending capitalism, but giving workers and local communities a stake in companies:

    Warren will introduce the bill dubbed the Accountable Capitalism Act on Wednesday. The proposal aims to alter a model she says has caused corporations to chase profits for shareholders to the detriment of workers.
    …
    Employees at large corporations would be able to elect at least 40% of the board of directors.
    …
    The legislation would also require 75% of directors and shareholders to approve before a corporation could make political expenditures.

    I guess that is the most radical a potential US presidential candidate could get.

    • Dennis Frank 10.1
      16 August 2018 at 9:12 am

      Small step in the right direction so we ought to credit her for trying I suppose. Some authors have reported on the co-operatives in the USA that have long provided an alternative model for business – a surprisingly large number.

  11. SaveNZ 11
    16 August 2018 at 9:18 am

    Stephen Selwood is Chief Executive of Infrastructure New Zealand seems to think that we can solve our affordable housing problems by just somehow obtaining $25k sections (free from the taxpayers no doubt) and putting on Greenfield land that the taxpayer fairies apparently come down and grant billions for infrastructure for public transport and infrastructure to industries like his in an instant to build, and increase the prices of food for the average person…

    Sounds like a great idea,(sarcasm) lets get Stephen Selwood to finance his own project and show how he can get it done, (or is this just another blowhard expecting the taxpayers to give him more corporate welfare contracts)…

    There actually used to be $300k houses and apartments in Auckland 5 years ago, before someone decided to import nearly 1 million cheap workers and satellite families into the area and create ‘gold bricks’ opportunities for people to take out money from their own countries and hide it here and change the zoning so create millions overnight for landowners.

    • Psych nurse 11.1
      16 August 2018 at 10:08 am

      There are a multitude of reasons we will never have $25k sections again, one being the massive earthworks now required to make the land earthquake resistant, underground power supply, stormwater ponds that take up land previously built on.
      For as long as houses are built by developers and builders who control what is built to maximise profit we will never have houses built that reflect what is needed.
      Those with a memory will recall building what you could afford with plans to expand your house as money came available, now a first house will be four bedrooms, office and media room. The banks and investors will be happy as borrowers will be tied to huge loans that will never be paid off.

      • SaveNZ 11.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 2:31 pm

        No wonder the infrastructure companies are going bust with the CEO who thinks they can do the infrastructure and buy a section for $25k and have a completed new build for $300k. You would be lucky to get power connected with our rip of culture of profiteering in the construction industry, for $25k.

    • alwyn 11.2
      16 August 2018 at 3:08 pm

      “Auckland 5 years ago, before someone decided to import nearly 1 million cheap workers and satellite families into the area ”
      That is a truly amazing statistic. Are you really making the claim that the population of Auckland has risen by at least a million people in the last five years?
      If you are making that claim can you provide a source for the numbers?
      If not can you please tell us what you are really claiming?

      • SaveNZ 11.2.1
        16 August 2018 at 4:31 pm

        Add the amount of permanent residents per year, the amount of student and temporary visas, the “tourists” who seem to be living here and estimate the amount of illegal workers and you are getting around that figure over the 5 years. Surprisingly nobody seems to be able to understand why there is so much congestion in Auckland and it is spreading, why so many shortages of teachers, beds in hospitals etc are already full… and if you think the botch up census will provide answers you are wrong.

        The government even relys on visitors cards and voluntary information to track what is going on and seems about a decade behind what is actually happening.

        We even have pearls of wisdom from the CEO of infrastructure this morning thinking he can organise some Greenfield sections for $25k. God help us if this is the standard of thinking we have to deal with. If you can get the water and power and telecoms on a site for that, you are doing well! Let alone buy and develop it.

        Government already had sites with power, water, drainage, telecoms etc. They were called state houses and provide affordable housing before successive governments sold them off and now the former tenants live in private hotels at $1000 per week while where they used to live is being sold at $800k +.

        Everywhere you look, the taxpayers and the most vulnerable are picking up the price for idiotic thinking and then the neoliberals are trying to spin it as solving something.

  13. greywarshark 13
    16 August 2018 at 10:20 am

    save nz @ 11
    Your explanation sounds about right. Having stripped the country of micro business so that we can buy stuff cheaply from the countries that we are exporting our produce to, and leaving damage where it’s been, and reduced wages so that people can hardly afford to buy the cheap things brought in that are made wonkier and so ever cheaper, so they can be affordable but only last one season and then be replaced, which is the way that countries trade and achieve growth and good returns by clipping the ticket in numerous ways and in NZ by 15% consumer tax on everything, through all that we achieve harmony and to ensure that those making profits do not lose too much from stock exchange or international currency exchange fluctuations the governments open up the most attractive as investment and permanent things of worth in NZ that can be sold, houses.

    That’s tl;dr but isn’t that it for NZ in a large nutshell from someone who views NZ as lost in a larger nutcase and nuthouse. We will have to learn to sing, and sing this song from Porgy and Bess, and keep singing and hold onto our gals and fellers and kids with love and resignation, and be wise and determined to get what we really need, because anger wastes time unless positively directed and becomes self-destructive.

    Ella Fitzgerald Lyrics
    “I Got Plenty O’ Nuttin'”

    I got plenty of nothing
    And nothing’s plenty for me
    I got no car – got no mule
    I got no misery
    Folks with plenty of [plenty]
    They’ve got a lock on the door
    Afraid somebody’s going to rob ’em
    While there out (a) making more – what for

    I got no lock on the door – that’s no way to be
    They can steal the rug from the floor – that’s OK with me
    ‘Cause the things that I prize – like the stars in the skies – are all free
    I got plenty of nothing
    And nothing’s plenty for me
    I got my gal – got my song
    (I) Got heaven the whole day long
    – Got my gal – got my love – got my song

    Oh, I got plenty of nothing
    And nothing’s plenty for me
    I got the sun, got the moon
    Got the deep blue sea
    The folks with plenty of plenty
    Got to pray all the day
    Sure with plenty you sure got to worry
    How to keep the devil away – Away

    I ain’t frettin ’bout hell
    ‘Till the time arrive
    Never worry long as I’m well
    Never one to strive
    To be good, to be bad
    What the hell
    I am glad I’m alive

    Writer(s): George Gershwin, du Bose Heyward, Ira Gershwin
    https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/ellafitzgerald/igotplentyonuttin.html

    Incidentallly I think Ella Fitzgerald, 76 is very ill.

    • Sabine 13.1
      16 August 2018 at 10:39 am

      Ella Fitzgerald died in 1996.

      you are thinking of Aretha Franklin who is now in hospice care.

    • joe90 13.2
      16 August 2018 at 10:40 am

      Umm, Ella Fitzgerald died in 1996.

      Aretha isn’t too flash, though.

    • greywarshark 13.3
      16 August 2018 at 11:03 am

      Thanks I just saw Ella’s name and thought of news piece I heard lately. But Aretha, it is. People to remember but good younger ones coming along.

      I liked Hollie Smith version of Bathe In the River

    • millsy 13.4
      16 August 2018 at 11:03 am

      The years from 1900 – 1945 produced some very talented people. Not too sure how that came about.

      • Puckish Rogue 13.4.1
        16 August 2018 at 12:30 pm

        A higher standard of living (thanks capitalism) than previous generations had experienced at a guess

        • KJT 13.4.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 8:05 pm

          High taxes and increasing wages in the USA, actually.
          Helped by the full employment and economic stimulus, from bringing down the capitalist monopolies with antitrust laws, and high wealth taxes, and several Government funded wars.

          But. Don’t let me burst your right wing fantasies.

        • Draco T Bastard 13.4.1.2
          16 August 2018 at 8:39 pm

          All the evidence indicates that capitalism has produced more poverty and destroyed every single society that it’s arisen in.

          Capitalists manage to bludge so much because people want to produce and create.

        • Sabine 13.4.1.3
          17 August 2018 at 8:16 pm

          Capitalism has never done anything but make people poorer.
          The reason that living standards went up was not so much do to ‘Capitalism’ or its enforcers the Business Class but rather to do with the work of Unions and the courage of people to go on strike with all that entails.
          The polite classes never gave anything up for free, not the right to vote, not the right to be a free man/women, not the pennies paid upon hour worked, nor the few rights workers today posses. The reason you can claim unemployment benefits, health care benefits, accident benefits and the likes is that many many people a hundred + years ago dared to storm the barricades and put fear in the hearts of the nouveau riche and their dependents.

          Just a small sampling of strikes in the US from 1900 – 1940

          Strikes in the US 1900
          St. Louis Streetcar Strike of 1900 (1900, U.S.)
          Anthracite Coal Strike (1900, U.S.)
          Machinists’ Strike (1900, U.S.)
          U.S. Steel Recognition Strike of 1901 (U.S.)
          Machinists’ Strike (1901, U.S.)
          San Francisco Restaurant Workers’ Strike (1901, U.S.)
          Anthracite Coal Strike (1902, U.S.)
          Chicago Teamsters’ Strike (1902, U.S.)
          Cripple Creek Colorado, Miners’ Strike (1902, U.S.)
          Colorado Labor Wars, Western Federation of Miners (1903–1904, U.S.)
          Oxnard Strike of 1903 (U.S.)
          Utah Coal Strike (1903, U.S.)
          Fall River Textile Strike (1904) (July 25, 1904, U.S.)[2]
          New York City Interborough Rapid Transit Strike (1904, U.S.)
          Packinghouse Workers’ Strike (1904, U.S.)
          Flint Glass Workers’ Strike (1904, U.S.)[3]
          Santa Fe Railroad Shopmen’s Strike (1904, U.S.)
          Goldfield Nevada, Miners’ Strike (1907, U.S.)
          Pensacola streetcar operators’ strike (1908, Pensacola, Florida, U.S.)
          New York shirtwaist strike of 1909 “Uprising of the 20,000” (1909, U.S.)
          Georgia Railroad Strike (1909, U.S.)
          Pressed Steel Car Strike of 1909 (McKees Rocks, Pennsylvania, U.S.)
          Watertown Connecticut, Arsenal Strike (1909, U.S.)

          1910
          1910 New York cloakmakers strike, also known as “The Great Revolt” (1910, U.S.)
          Westmoreland County coal strike of 1910–11 (U.S.)
          Chicago garment workers’ strike of 1910–1911 (U.S.)
          1911 Liverpool general transport strike (UK)
          Illinois Central shopmen’s strike of 1911 (U.S.)
          1911 Grand Rapids Furniture Workers (U.S.)
          1912 Lawrence textile strike, often known as the Bread and Roses Strike (1912, U.S.)
          1912 Little Falls textile strike (U.S.)
          Louisiana timber workers’ strike (1912, U.S.)
          Paint Creek–Cabin Creek strike of 1912 (U.S.)
          Copper Country strike of 1913–14 (1913–14, U.S.)
          Ludlow Massacre Strike (1913, U.S.)
          Paterson silk strike (1913, U.S.)
          1913 New York City hotel workers’ strike (U.S.)
          Indianapolis streetcar strike of 1913 (U.S.)
          1913 Detroit automobile strike (U.S.)
          1915 Chicago garment workers’ strike (U.S.)
          Bayonne refinery strikes (1915 and 1916, U.S.)
          Mesabi Range miners’ strike (1916, U.S.)
          BLE strike in New York City (1918, U.S.)
          Coal strike (1919, U.S.)
          Lawrence (Mass.) textile strike (1919, U.S.)
          Boston Police Strike (1919, U.S.)
          Steel strike of 1919 (U.S.)

          1920s
          Battle of Matewan (1920, U.S.)
          Denver streetcar strike of 1920 (1920, U.S.)
          1920 Alabama coal strike (1920, U.S.)
          Clothing Workers’ Lockout (1920, U.S.)
          Oahu Sugar Strike of 1920 (1920, U.S.)
          1929 – 1939 Great Depression
          Battle of Blair Mountain (1921, U.S.)
          Seamen’s Strike (1921, U.S.)
          Great Railroad Strike of 1922 (U.S.)
          Herrin massacre (1922, U.S.)
          Anthracite Coal Strike (1922, U.S.)
          Bituminous Coal Strike (1922, U.S.)
          Railroad Shopmen’s Strike (1922, U.S.)
          Portland Waterfront Strikes (1922, U.S.)
          Hanapepe massacre (1924, U.S.)
          Anthracite Coal Strike (1925, U.S.)
          Passaic New Jersey, Textile Strike (1926, U.S.)
          Bituminous Coal Strike (1927, U.S.)
          Columbine Mine Massacre Strike (1927, U.S.)
          New Bedford Massachusetts, Textile Strike (1928, U.S.)
          Loray Mill Strike (Gastonia, North Carolina, Textile Strike) (1929, U.S.)

          1930s
          Imperial Valley California, Farmworkers’ Strike (1929, U.S.)
          Tampa cigar makers’ strike (1931, U.S.)
          Santa Clara Cannery Strike (1931, U.S.)
          Harlan County War, Harlan County, Kentucky (1931, U.S.)
          California Pea Pickers’ Strike (1932, U.S.)
          Century Airlines pilots’ strike (1932, U.S.)
          Davidson-Wiler Tennessee, Coal Strike (1932, U.S.)
          Ford Hunger March Detroit Michigan (1932, U.S.)
          Vacaville California, Tree Pruners’ Strike (1932, U.S.)
          Briggs Manufacturing Company Strike (1933, U.S.)
          California Farmworkers’ Strike (1933, U.S.)
          Detroit Michigan Tool and Die Strike (1933, U.S.)
          New Mexico Miners’ Strike (1933, U.S.)
          Harlem New York, Jobs-for-Negroes-Boycott (1934, U.S.)
          Kohler Strike, Sheboygan, Wisconsin (1934, U.S.)
          1934 New York Hotel Strike (1934, U.S.)
          Imperial Valley California, Farmworkers’ Strike (1934, U.S.)
          Auto-Lite Strike (1934, Toledo, Ohio, U.S.)
          Minneapolis Teamsters Strike of 1934 (U.S.)
          1934 West Coast Longshore Strike (U.S.)
          Rubber Workers’ Strike (1934, U.S.)
          Textile workers Strike (1934) (U.S.)
          NewarkStar-Ledger Strike (1934, U.S.)
          Oklahoma, Kansas and Missouri Metal workers’ strike (1935, U.S.)
          Pacific Northwest Lumber Strike (1935, U.S.)
          Southern Sharecroppers’ and Farm Laborers’ Strike (1935, U.S.)
          1935 Gulf Coast longshoremen’s strike (U.S.)
          Atlanta Georgia, Auto Workers’ Sit-Down Strike (1936, U.S.)
          Berkshire Knitting Mills Strike (1936, U.S.)
          Flint Sit-Down Strike (1936, U.S.)
          RCA Strike (1936, U.S.)
          Gulf Coast maritime workers’ strike (1936, U.S.)
          Seattle Post-Intelligencer Newspaper Strike (1936, U.S.)
          Rubber Workers’ Strike (1936, U.S.)
          S.S. California strike (1936, U.S.)
          Remington Rand strike of 1936–1937 (U.S.)
          Flint Sit-Down Strike General Motors (1936–1937, U.S.)
          Hershey Pennsylvania, Chocolate Workers’ Strike (1937, U.S.)
          Little Steel Strike including Memorial Day massacre of 1937 (U.S.)
          Lewiston-Auburn Shoe Strike (1937, Maine, U.S.)
          Chicago Newspaper Strike (1938, U.S.)
          Maytag Strike (1938, U.S.)
          Hilo Massacre (1938, Territory of Hawaii)
          Chrysler Auto Strike (1939, U.S.)
          Tool and Die Strike of 1939 (1939, U.S.)
          Ford Motor Strike (1939, U.S.)
          Disney animators’ strike (1939, U.S.)

          So the ‘better living conditions due to capitalism’ in the US is a bit far fetched my dear PR, consider as well the Dust bowl and the Great Depression from the 1929 – 1939 which literally was caused by the exess of the monied classes gambling like the addicts they are on the Stock Market. (kind of like 2008?)

          But i am sure you remember that fellow here, Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the US from 1933- 1945 who with his New Deal, his social idea of ‘public works programme’. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal I wuz told it worked wonders lifting at least white skinned US Americans out of the grinding poverty of the great depression (you know the after math of the folly of the rampant capitalism of the roaring twenties).

          For the black US American Population i would put the music down to the day to day experiences of living the Jim Crow law. Somehow that was the best outlet for them to speak about their life without getting lynched for shits n giggles and a photograph of a picnic under the tree bearing strange fruit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnlTHvJBeP0
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt

  14. marty mars 14
    16 August 2018 at 10:28 am

    Great – we need development to save the areas being developed // sarc. If you think this is not about making money then you are deluded.

    “A Hong Kong billionaire’s development of a high country station in the Mackenzie Basin is shifting up a gear.”

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/106311291/mackenzie-stations-tourism-plans-get-green-light

  15. marty mars 15
    16 August 2018 at 10:43 am

    And this highlights imo the issue of those not wanting to learn about Te Ao Māori

    “But my second column established the opposite. It was live for less than 12 hours before Stuff disabled comments… Of the 200-plus comments that remained on the article, cynicism, ignorance and resistance thrived…

    I’m the first to admit that just a few months back I rolled my eyes when Taika Waititi described New Zealand as ‘racist as f…’. But scratch below the surface a little and you’ll discover a vibration of racist energy of which many of us are blissfully unaware. Because it’s ugly, we try not to see it.”

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/106290769/te-reo-naysayers-build-a-bridge-and-dont-be-the-troll-under-it

    Yep until you live it, are aware of it, are affected by it – it doesn’t exist. It isn’t reality. This is the crisis of empathy and the legacy of neo liberalism and capitalism. THIS is the enemy.

    • joe90 15.1
      16 August 2018 at 11:17 am

      Nah, this is the legacy of imperial Europe’s racist version of manifest destiny, colonial paternalism, and emboldened by the most recent helpings of racial enmity, resentment, othering and crisis of empathy, with a newly found license to let the masks slip.

      • marty mars 15.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 12:00 pm

        “I’m the first to admit that just a few months back I rolled my eyes when Taika Waititi described New Zealand as ‘racist as f…’. But scratch below the surface a little and you’ll discover a vibration of racist energy of which many of us are blissfully unaware.”

        That bit was the bit i noticed.

        • joe90 15.1.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 12:31 pm

          Marty, due to events in my own life the scales fell, and when I knew what to look for, I saw the country Taika Waititi describes.

          That was more than forty years ago and for a long while I really thought things would change.

          I was wrong.

  16. greywarshark 16
    16 August 2018 at 10:55 am

    marty mars
    Ata marie marty
    Kia ora

  17. reason 17
    16 August 2018 at 11:05 am

    Good first step.

    Our NZ Labour led coalition government have passed into law one of Labours pre-election promises and banned non-residents from buying up NZ houses….. well done them and it’s a good first step.

    Undoubtedly a lot of ‘dirty’ money has been invested, laundered and hidden in NZ …. especially as our last corrupt Natz government kept Real estate agents, accountants and lawyers out of and immunized from our money laundering laws for year upon year upon year.

    A good next step to flush out and remove the rich thieves that National protected …. is the proceeds of crime laws we have…..

    Internationally logging and forestry is a giant environment wrecking criminal racket …. and many of these criminal forestry companies operate here …. specific examples being Malaysian ones.

    Their ill-gotten land and trees should be seized …. and as with all confiscations under our proceeds of crimes laws …. if they can prove the purchase money was clean …. they get the property back …. but they won’t as their criminality is well documented …. The Sarawak report being a good place to show this. http://www.sarawakreport.org/search/?q=logging&lang=en&page=1

    https://news.mongabay.com/2016/12/interpol-says-corruption-in-global-forestry-sector-worth-29-billion-every-year/

    The same goes for all the farms, vineyards, companies, power company shares, property etc etc …. purchased using shell companies or trusts based in the Bahamas, Cayman Islands, Jersey , Hong Kong …. or all the other shadow banking / tax haven centers.

    Under National New zealand became part of the world wide problem of the rich and super rich stealing from the poor….. we’ve been aiding and abetting the criminals.

    Cleaning up their muck would be good for everyone worldwide ….. but especially in NZ

  18. Herodotus 18
    16 August 2018 at 11:38 am

    I am hearing from friends during last weekend get together, that there is some unrest and dis satisfaction with their union NZEI, and there was talk of leaving the union.
    As many of those I socialise with are on the Q1 or Q2 primary teachers scale, and even though they are full time teachers there (current) max pay scale caps out at $59,621 or $63,929, and they see that the union as not supporting their position. Not the $89,700 being reported. Yet both perform the same tasks and parents would not be aware of the qualification that their child’s teacher has, only if they are good or not
    https://www.nzei.org.nz/AgreementDoc/PTCA.pdf
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/104148838/secondary-teachers-aim-for-15-per-cent-pay-increase-extra-nonteaching-hours

    • Wayne 18.1
      16 August 2018 at 3:27 pm

      There can’t be many Q1 and Q2 teachers left in the system. They must have all qualified at least 25 years ago at Teachers Training College (as they then were) with a Diploma in Teaching. That is, they are pre the time when all teachers at least got a Bachelor of Education through the Training Colleges.

      My understanding is that would have been before the early 1990’s. It also implies they have not done any additional papers to upgrade their Diploma’s to degree level, which I know a large number of that group have subsequently done.

      I know the Ministry and Schools have put a lot of effort in trying to encourage people with Diplomas only to upgrade their qualifications. The pay scale is supposed to be one of the incentives to do so.

      • Herodotus 18.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 4:32 pm

        We obviously run in different areas !!
        I know quite a few in the 45-55 age group.
        When pay parity was achieved in the late 90s (??) The Q1 and Q2 were to be addressed. This never happened. Yet theses teachers still commit and achieve the same as those with degrees. Yet are rewarded $15-$17k pa less. I thought the unions were all for “A fair day’s wage for a Fair day’s Work”
        And the NZEI wonders why they have lost support with a increasing number leaving the union. And for a guy at an intermediate school IMO is dangerous
        https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1881/05/07.htm
        Obviously

        • Gabby 18.1.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 5:21 pm

          I wonder why it’s got so difficult to find manual teachers now. The whole real teachers have degrees thing was a massive self inflicted wound.

          • KJT 18.1.1.1.1
            16 August 2018 at 8:07 pm

            And an insult to qualified tradespeople.

            The whole contempt for the trades, and productive workers, imported from the UK, is part of the problem with ex British colonies, economies.

            As Angela Merkel said to a British Prime Minister who moaned about their economic stagnation, compared to Germany, “We still make things”.

            • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1.1.1.1
              16 August 2018 at 8:34 pm

              Good automation means that we don’t really need tradespeople any more which means that we need more people doing R&D which means people in universities.

              Of course, we’re not getting good automation because our business leaders are too cheap.

              This video covers it.

              • KJT …
                16 August 2018 at 8:38 pm

                Total bullshit Draco.

                What are we short of at the moment?

                Hint. It is not designers and Lawyers.

                Who is going to design, develop and build your “automated factories”.
                It will be skilled trades, as usual.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  16 August 2018 at 8:55 pm

                  I take it you didn’t watch the video. It won’t be people carefully hand-crafting each individual piece and carefully putting it together with each product being different. It will be people designing it on computers and the designed piece being 3D printed. It may then be assembled by labourers but even that’s becoming iffy.

                  You cannot make a IC by hand. You can’t even make TVs by hand, putting all the individual bits in place and soldering them, any more even though they used to be.

                  The skills that you say we need are already gone while automation and the high precision that it brings has taken their place.

                  I’m not dissing tradies. Hell, I am a tradie and have a trade cert to prove it. I’m just saying that their time has been and gone.

                  • KJT …
                    16 August 2018 at 9:13 pm

                    3/4 of NZ houses needing over 20k in repair work says different. Bro.

                    Funny, trades are in the skills shortage list, while graduates are flipping burgers.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      16 August 2018 at 9:41 pm

                      3/4 of NZ houses needing over 20k in repair work says different.

                      3/4 of houses needing such repair work tells me that 3/4 of houses in NZ need to be replaced. To do so requires machinery.

                      Funny, trades are in the skills shortage list, while graduates are flipping burgers.

                      Did you notice me saying that our business leaders were being too cheap?

                      We don’t need useless jobs but we do need better manufacturing capability.

                      A well developing economy reduces the number of jobs needed while still providing everything that the local populace needs.

                    • KJT …
                      16 August 2018 at 9:56 pm

                      Ever wondered why prefab houses never took off here?

                      Because sole trader builders are efficient, but also relatively cheap.

                      The building materials cost the same inflated prices, whatever you do.

  19. Jenny 19
    16 August 2018 at 11:44 am

    “The taste of victory will be like ashes in our mouths” Kennedy

    “I’m fine with Sunni jihadists getting aerially gang-raped” Cemetery Jones

    Photo of regime soldier waving government flag in Yarmouk ruins.

    https://syriadirect.org/news/dozens-of-bodies-remain-buried-beneath-rubble-of-yarmouk-camp-as-long-road-to-reconstruction-looms-ahead/

    • reason 19.1
      16 August 2018 at 1:42 pm

      The amounts of blood and misery unleashed in the middle east …. and elsewhere around the world ….. is a horrific evil …. one which our pro-war media hides ….. in their support building sanitisation of our humanitarian slaughters / bombings / interventions. https://www.mondialisation.ca/united-states-bombings-of-other-countries-americas-bombing-list/5533371

      New Zealand has blood on it’s hands https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58bcc6ac893fc04255abbbcc/t/58cfb45a37c5819ccd2bfd50/1490014002150/?format=500w … it’s what you do to be part of “the club”.

      “It is a scandal in contemporary international law, don’t forget, that while “wanton destruction of towns, cities and villages” is a war crime of long standing, the bombing of cities from airplanes goes not only unpunished but virtually unaccused. Air bombardment is state terrorism, the terrorism of the rich. It has burned up and blasted apart more innocents in the past six decades than have all the antistate terrorists who ever lived. ”

      A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn’t have an air force.

      The bombing list

      Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)
      Guatemala 1954
      Indonesia 1958
      Cuba 1959-1961
      Guatemala 1960
      Congo 1964
      Laos 1964-73
      Vietnam 1961-73
      Cambodia 1969-70
      Guatemala 1967-69
      Grenada 1983
      Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)
      Libya 1986
      El Salvador 1980s
      Nicaragua 1980s
      Iran 1987
      Panama 1989
      Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)
      Kuwait 1991
      Somalia 1993
      Bosnia 1994, 1995
      Sudan 1998
      Afghanistan 1998
      Yugoslavia 1999
      Yemen 2002
      Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)
      Iraq 2003-2015
      Afghanistan 2001-2015
      Pakistan 2007-2015
      Somalia 2007-8, 2011
      Yemen 2009, 2011
      Libya 2011, 2015
      Syria 2014-2015

      ————–

      What has and is going on is Syria …. Like Libya before it … and Iraq … and Afghanistan … Palestine etc.

      Should be seen for what it is https://gowans.wordpress.com/2016/10/22/the-revolutionary-distemper-in-syria-that-wasnt/

      https://www.bookdepository.com/Great-War-for-Civilisation-Robert-Fisk/9781841150086

      • KJT 19.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 2:27 pm

        Almost all those places had one thing in coMmon.

        Governments which restricted US corporate earnings.

        • reason 19.1.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 2:55 pm

          Your pretty much on the mark there KJT …. This informative Author refers to “the axis of resistance” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF21hR0PgbQ

          friendly “in club” country’s like NZ only get strike breaking airlifts to buckle the socialist left wing influences here …. and media disinformation.

          As happened in our famous historic watersiders strike …. and which our pro-war right wing media suppressed all information of at the time….. it took a CIA declassification of old 50 year and over files for us to find out about it ….

          when thousands upon thousands of NZers must have known about the free usa provided air freighting operation .

          • Jenny 19.1.1.1.1
            17 August 2018 at 7:04 am

            KJT 19.1.1
            16 August 2018 at 2:27 pm
            Almost all those places had one thing in coMmon.

            Governments which restricted US corporate earnings.

            By that measure alone, Syria was not in the Axis of Resistance. Prostrating itself to the IMF and fully opening up its economy to foreign penetration in the neo-liberal reforms of the late ’90s early 2000s.

            The Assad regime also supplied 19,000 Syrian troops to the US led, “Coalition of the Willing” in the first Gulf War against Iraq.

            And the Assad regime kindly lent out its torture chambers to the CIA for the purposes of Extraordinary Rendition because the poor old CIA was not allowed under the US Constitution to apply cruel and unusual punishments. Something erstwhile US friend, Assad has no qualms about.

            So much for resistance to imperialism. That the regime has now switched to being servile to Russian imperialism, still doesn’t make it part of the mythical Axis of Resistance.

            If there is an axis of resistance to imperialism in the MIddle East it belongs to the millions of Arab peoples who rose up in the Arab Spring including the opposition to Assad in Syria.

        • Jenny 19.1.1.2
          17 August 2018 at 1:52 pm

          You don’t mention Syria. But I can guess from the context of this thread, that what you are trying to infer without saying it; Is that Syria has tried to restrict US corporate earnings.

          One thing is for sure KJT.

          Though Hafez Assad may have operated a more command type economy, his zealous neo-liberal reforming son Bashar, has not tried to restrict US corporate earnings, in fact the opposite.

          Syria to Open Its Economy to Foreign Investors
          Jay Solomon – May 14, 2009

          Syrian President Bashar Assad’s government is pushing ahead with steps to open up its economy to investment, senior Syrian officials said, although the U.S. is maintaining broad economic sanctions on the Arab nation.

          Damascus is preparing to grant new private-banking licenses to foreign investors, while expanding the Damascus Securities Exchange, which made its debut in March, these officials said. It’s also wooing foreign investment in manufacturing and tourism to support economic growth, which has averaged about 5% over the past five years.

          “This economy is virgin. There are many opportunities to explore,” Central Bank Governor Adib Mayaleh said in an interview.

          Two men in a Damascus café beneath a poster showing Syrian President Bashar Assad, right, and Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah of Lebanon. The U.S. is hoping to improve relations with Mr. Assad’s government in an effort to weaken Syrian alliances with Iran and groups such as Hezbollah.
          Two men in a Damascus café beneath a poster showing Syrian President Bashar Assad, right, and Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah of Lebanon. The U.S. is hoping to improve relations with Mr. Assad’s government in an effort to weaken Syrian alliances with Iran and groups such as Hezbollah. ASSOCIATED PRESS
          It’s a new direction for Damascus, which has maintained one of the Middle East’s most closed economies in recent decades. Middle East analysts also question whether Mr. Assad can achieve his economic goals without changing his authoritarian political system and improving relations with Washington.

          President Barack Obama has said he is interested in developing better ties with Syria and sent two high-level diplomatic delegations to Damascus. But last week, Mr. Obama renewed five-year-old economic sanctions on Damascus because of U.S. concerns about Syrian support for militant groups, such as Hezbollah and Hamas, operating in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories.

          U.S. officials also charge that Damascus continues to facilitate the flow of foreign fighters into Iraq, an allegation Syria denies.

          Mr. Assad assumed power from his late father, Hafez Assad, in 2000 amid high hopes that the new leader’s youth and Western education could lead to changes in Syria’s rigid one-party state.

          Mr. Assad, 43 years old, has displayed little appetite for opening Syria’s political system, say Middle East analysts, imprisoning pro-democracy activists in recent years and closing independent media outlets. The International Monetary Fund and other financial institutions, however, praise Mr. Assad and his economic planners for liberalizing finance and trade while reorienting Syria’s economy away from a dependence on oil as their domestic production dwindled. Damascus has moved from exporting nearly 700,000 barrels of oil a day in the mid-1990s to becoming a net importer of oil.

          As recently as 2004, the state controlled the banking system. Today, about a dozen private banks — mostly Arab-owned — operate, Syrian officials said. Damascus pegged the Syrian pound to an IMF-administered basket of currencies and allowed its largely free conversion into U.S. dollars. The government is privatizing some state-owned firms and bringing in independent managers to help oversee others. Foreign direct investment in Syria jumped to $2.1 billion last year from $400 million in 2004, according to the IMF. Syria’s non-oil exports, meanwhile, are projected to grow to more than $9 billion next year from less than $4 billion in 2004.

          “We see a clear move toward economic reforms in Syria,” said Khaled Sakr, the IMF’s mission chief for the country. “It’s cautiously and steadily moving in the right direction.”

  20. RedLogix 20
    16 August 2018 at 1:09 pm

    Finally got some time to follow up on this Jordan Peterson dude. On first blush there seems to be four types of material that’s been published; ephemeral clickbait excerpts from others that may or may not have some value, edited media interviews of limited interest, many hundreds of hours of his own academic lectures going back quite a few years, and long form discussions with other interesting people. This last category are quite absorbing in my view.

    At an hour and half this is actually one of the shorter ones it would seem, but I think most people here might find it interesting, or at the least thought provoking:

    https://youtu.be/nj9NEKisvB4

    • McFlock 20.1
      16 August 2018 at 1:39 pm

      Yeah, he’s multifaceted.

      • RedLogix 20.1.1
        16 August 2018 at 2:07 pm

        For a start Vice is definitely a hostile source; it seems they’ve track record in distorting his ideas before with some very clumsy and selective editing, so they’ve gone for something a bit more sophisticated in this article.

        But really the only point on which they really challenge Peterson is to reference PZ Myers comments on the lobster dominance/serotonin thing. Well Myers himself definitely has an agenda:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZ_Myers

        so while that doesn’t immediately disqualify what he’s saying here:

        https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/7v9wo2/pz_myers_this_has_been_bothering_me/

        But Myers himself makes a bunch of absurd strawmen assertions as the comments and this thread suggest:

        https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/7v9wo2/pz_myers_this_has_been_bothering_me/

        All up PZ is both derogatory, arrogant and I’m not impressed. I’ve no doubt Peterson could well be challenged on the serotonin story, especially given the relatively casual and simplified version he uses to present to general audiences … but this guy seems more focussed on attacking Peterson personally than making a thoughtful argument.

        Hope you’ve gotten to the end of the video I linked to by now; it is as you say multifaceted. 🙂

        • Puckish Rogue 20.1.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 2:22 pm

          Heres one you really should watch:

        • McFlock 20.1.1.2
          16 August 2018 at 2:26 pm

          I didn’t link to Vice, but rather Cracked. Dunno who PZ Myers is, not overly bothered to find out. I actually thought the Cracked article was reasonably fair to Peterson.

          And no, I’m not going to bother to watch a single hour and a half video, as a single video could never be representative of his ouvre. I’ve never said that he doesn’t put out reasonable content, I’ve even said he helps people (as the article I linked to also says). But he also calls women’s rights a “murderous equity doctrine”.

          • RedLogix 20.1.1.2.1
            16 August 2018 at 3:15 pm

            OK so you’re not interested in even looking at the link I put up, much less address any of the content, but you are happy to play gotcha.

            Which ironically enough was a main point of the discussion, in the link.

            And I think your jibe on women’s rights is also another rather obvious strawman.

            • McFlock 20.1.1.2.1.1
              16 August 2018 at 3:30 pm

              the dude has produced probably thousands of hours of lectures, interviews and videos. You’ve found an hour and a half that’s reasonable. Good for you. One might even be able to find an hour and a half of T-45 acting reasonable. It doesn’t overrule the rest of his material. So why should I bother watching it – to confirm something I’ve already acknowledged? A waste of time.

              This is the “murderous equity doctrine in all it’s glory. Justin Trudeau tweeted “It’s incredibly inspiring and motivating to see so many people come out to support women’s rights. We see you, we hear you, and @MaryamMonsef and our government will keep fighting for gender equality in Canada. #womensmarch2018”. Peterson’s reply: “Is that the murderous equity doctrine @JustinTrudeau? Do you understand where that leads? Or do you think you’ll do it differently?”.

              Call that a strawman if you want, but it’s hardly a reasonable response to a banal politician’s tweet, surely.

              And there are other examples I’ve come across elsewhere. So, like I say, he’s a bit more complex than the clicksturbaitors, but it’s not like he’s completely benign, either.

              • RedLogix …
                16 August 2018 at 4:19 pm

                Brilliant! I must bookmark this. “I can’t be arsed actually reading/watching anything you link to, but I’ve already made up my mind it’s a waste of time”. Why didn’t I think of this foolproof gambit years ago? Wins every argument, every time.

                Peterson’s reply: “Is that the murderous equity doctrine @JustinTrudeau? Do you understand where that leads? Or do you think you’ll do it differently?”.

                Exactly what ‘equality’ was Trudeau referring to? Equality of rights and opportunity (which has already been effectively achieved in countries like Canada and nobody objects to) or equality of outcome which is what Peterson was asking about when he used the word ‘equity’ ? They are of course two quite different things, so it’s a legitimate question I would imagine.

                • McFlock …
                  16 August 2018 at 4:28 pm

                  Yawn.

                  Peterson isn’t controversial because he has long interviews with interesting people.

                  He’s controversial because even in the sense of “equality of outcome” for “gender equality”, to call it “murderous” blatantly misrepresents who is killing whom. Even in Canada.

                  • RedLogix …
                    16 August 2018 at 4:56 pm

                    IIRC in most countries the majority of people killed are men, mostly by other men. As an extreme behaviour there are good reasons why men are the primary perpetrators of aggressive, lethal violence. (I’d link but you wouldn’t be arsed reading it.) In general the best social predictor of violence is economic inequality, and the specific causes of intimate partner violence are another complex set of issues. (I’d also link but again … you and not reading things.)

                    But neither of these have anything directly to do with women’s legal and social rights, or equality of opportunity; I think that blatantly misrepresents the actual causes of the problem.

                    BTW … in over a decade here I’ve never resorted to a puerile ‘yawn’ in any debate, however tendentious. Lift your fucking game.

                    • McFlock …
                      16 August 2018 at 5:55 pm

                      Well, how about you stop being so damned boring, instead?

                      All you said about that video is that some people might find it interesting or thought provoking. What new new and relevant information about peterson does it contain? Because I’ve already said that he does provide some interesting and reasonable content. The problem is the other content he also provides.

                      I’m not the one who called gender equity “murderous”. Calling the movement behind a women’s rights march “murderous”, as Peterson explicitly did, is a pretty drastic leap. Which was my point in the first place.

                      And as for me not taking an hour and a half out of my life to watch something on the offchance, you read my link so damned carefully that you referred to the wrong site and wrong author. Lift your own game.

                    • RedLogix []
                      16 August 2018 at 7:29 pm

                      Sorry for being boring, I find doing this in Android rather bloody.

                      One of his main arguments is that whenever left wing movements get enough power to implement equality of outcomes, the result is always murderous. There are only bad precedents to go by.

                    • McFlock …
                      16 August 2018 at 7:38 pm

                      Gosman’s Venezuela obssession had him pipped at the post with that one.

                      But even if his argument were true and fair, it doesn’t justify tolerating the inequalities of outcome that currently exist.

                    • Redlogix []
                      16 August 2018 at 7:52 pm

                      Precisely. Peterson actually makes exactly the same point forcefully in many places.

                      At the very least he casts a very harsh light on how deep and a serious problem inequality is. And in doing so lays out some constructive ground work towards resolving it. As the theme I’ve returned to here over many years it’s a fresh view I find intriguing.

                    • McFlock …
                      16 August 2018 at 8:23 pm

                      Great. That makes the stuff about male violence being caused by a lack of monogamy so much more reasonable. /sarc

                    • RedLogix []
                      16 August 2018 at 8:33 pm

                      I’m not sure why you find that so unreasonable. Is it a totally unjustifiable proposition?

                    • McFlock …
                      16 August 2018 at 10:50 pm

                      For several reasons. My favourite of which is that it’s a switch: he goes from describing what he sees as the cause of a problem (sexually frustrated males) and proposes a solution (get them laid by socially pressuring people to be monogamous so the actual nonviolent guys don’t sleep with as many women so the women have to settle for fuckwits) based on an incorrect social assumption (we actually have quite high rates of monogamy in the western world) and wilfully ignoring a third option (the “not if you were literally the last fuckwit on earth” negation of his solution). The trouble is that the more direct solution, even if this is a significant cause of the violence problem (very arguable) is that a better solution is to simply teach young men how to productively deal with their frustrations of any nature.

                      If there is a problem with my behaviour at work, my boss gets me to stop doing that. My boss does not propose a dramatic shift in everyone else’s conditions in the office in order to stop me wanting to do that bad behaviour.

                      So no, I really don’t believe his position is justifiable and his solution most certainly is not.

                    • RedLogix []
                      16 August 2018 at 11:26 pm

                      Great, and exactly the same answer Peterson gives, that ultimately young men need to take responsibility for their behaviour and own lives in order that they stand a decent chance of attracting a mate.

                      The problem is that if as a society we trend away from monogamy, the odds become hopelessly stacked against a large fraction of young males, and I’m of the view this does trend towards a more violent society. Certainly one where young men are more disposable in wars.

                      His solution being exactly the same as yours, I struggle to see your beef with it. Unless I’m wrong and you’re arguing against monogamy as a bad thing because it constrains female sexual selection.

                    • McFlock …
                      17 August 2018 at 12:09 am

                      Because monogamy doesn’t need to be in the conversation at all.

                      The entire assumption that non-monogamous societies revolve around just men having sex with lots of women is bloody stupid, for a start.

                      And it’s not like a cab on the rank – Peterson’s assumption is that if there are only dweebs left on the market because the would-be-promiscuous guys are in monogamous relationships, women will pick the dweebs. What a load of bull.

                      If Peterson’s solution is the same as mine, why the hell does he even bring up monogamy? Why doesn’t he stick to teaching young men how to not be fuckwits, rather than bringing his ideas on monogamy into it? Because the two conflict and end up providing solace to fuckwits who blame women for the fact that nobody wants to have sex with them.

                    • RedLogix []
                      17 August 2018 at 12:24 am

                      Because virtually all non monogamous societies DO finish up with just some men having sex with most of the women. Far from being a stupid assertion, history demonstrates that this is pretty much exactly what you get. There us even good genetic evidence supporting this.

                      Monogamy has to come into it, otherwise the game isnt worth playing. And it’s no accident that monogamy,or at least a constraint on excessive polygamy is a core teaching of all the major religions.

                      I don’t see any conflict at all. His 12 Rules book is all about putting yourself together and not being a ducking dweeb… no solace in it at all.

                    • McFlock …
                      17 August 2018 at 1:14 pm

                      Because virtually all non monogamous societies DO finish up with just some men having sex with most of the women

                      Only in those societies where sexual partners are regarded as property and expressions of power. Although even then, some cases like Rome also made sure guys got laid regularly. At the expense of the women, of course.

                      And it’s no accident that monogamy,or at least a constraint on excessive polygamy is a core teaching of all the major religions.

                      Indeed, it’s no accident that the systems used to preserve existing power structures control every aspect of human life.

                      Let’s look at it another way – if sexual frustration is a contributing factor for violence in society, if we simply gave all young men a monthly voucher to the local brothel then by what proportion would you expect the prison population to decrease?

                    • McFlock …
                      17 August 2018 at 5:14 pm

                      Going over the thread, I don’t understand this line:

                      Monogamy has to come into it, otherwise the game isnt worth playing.

                      What do you mean? Which game?

                • Muttonbird …
                  16 August 2018 at 9:21 pm

                  FFS. While it doesn’t surprise me RL is enamoured with Jordan Peterson (RL is of the landlord class after all), his parroting of the RIght Wing constant – ‘it’s about equality of opportunity not equality of outcome ‘ – beggars belief.

                  • marty mars …
                    16 August 2018 at 9:26 pm

                    + 1

                  • RedLogix …
                    16 August 2018 at 9:30 pm

                    Here comes the implied violence ‘0ne of the landlord class’. It’s disturbing how little it takes to scratch off the veneer of niceness around here.

                    Still if you are so certain that equality of outcomes is such a good idea, then feel free to explain in detail. Because I know it sounds a good thing, but it quickly degenerates when you start doing the details

    • joe90 20.2
      16 August 2018 at 4:52 pm

      Petersen, or Islamist Cleric?

      https://twitter.com/@JBPorCleric

      • arkie 20.2.1
        16 August 2018 at 5:19 pm

        If men cannot hit women, then we are at the mercy of female insanity

        Totally reasonable guy.

        And then my favourite JBP tweet;

        And you call me a fascist? You sanctimonious prick. If you were in my room at the moment, I’d slap you happily.

        Almost poetic. I hope he cleaned his room.

        • RedLogix 20.2.1.1
          16 August 2018 at 5:28 pm

          In both instances you’ve deliberately omitted the context.

          • Andre 20.2.1.1.1
            16 August 2018 at 5:47 pm

            Ok RL, I’ve just gone looking for the context of those two quotes, and I’m appalled.

            Would you care to lay out for us the context of those and explain how that context in any way mitigates Petersen’s utter reprehensibility?

            • RedLogix 20.2.1.1.1.1
              16 August 2018 at 7:14 pm

              What exactly appals you so? Given that neither quote appears in the slightest bit consistent with everything else he’s saying, it’s reasonable to assume it’s mischievously selective.

              The second relates to a particularly vile personal attack on Peterson, that also implicated a close friend of his. His anger was justified in my view.

          • joe90 20.2.1.1.2
            16 August 2018 at 5:50 pm

            Context?

            Dude’s innate thuggery exposed by his lamenting the fact that he can’t win an argument with women without resorting to violence, and that he’s unable to clock someone he disagrees because they’re too far away.

            • Redlogix 20.2.1.1.2.1
              16 August 2018 at 7:00 pm

              Whenever you see a short provocative quote with no context it’s 95% probable it’s intentionally misleading.

              Put your brain in gear, no sane person would actually say something with the intent being implied here. So what do you imagine the actual conversation was saying?

              This exactly what the right did to Cunliffe over the ‘sorry to be a man’ moment, so it shouldn’t be too hard to join the dots.

              • joe90 …
                16 August 2018 at 7:13 pm

                Here he is squealing about the fact that he’s forbidden to respond to women as he would men, with violence.

                And here, because he imagines he’s been slighted, he gets his wannabe thug on.

                And you call me a fascist? You sanctimonious prick. If you were in my room at the moment, I'd slap you happily. https://t.co/sC3Lc9Hhlu— Jordan B Peterson (@jordanbpeterson) March 20, 2018

                • RedLogix …
                  16 August 2018 at 7:20 pm

                  Ah nope. I think he’s saying the exact opposite of what you are implying.

                • RedLogix …
                  16 August 2018 at 7:35 pm

                  There was nothing imaginary about the accusation, and it was clearly the fact of his entirely innocent friend being dragged into it was the root of his anger

                • Gabby …
                  17 August 2018 at 1:36 pm

                  You’d think he’d be grateful that his smug little clock is relatively safe from cleaning.

          • arkie 20.2.1.1.3
            16 August 2018 at 5:54 pm

            Could you try putting these quotes into a context where they don’t sound unhinged?

            People can watch his videos for context but good luck, there’s a lot of misunderstanding Nietzsche, post-modernism and ‘cultural marxism’.
            As well as misinformed notions of biological hierarchy, socialism and atheism. He became famous for not understanding Canadian human rights law and now he is paid by PragerU to continue to rant hysterically.

            PragerU is an American non-profit organization that creates videos on various political, economic, and philosophical topics from a conservative perspective.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PragerU

            Other PragerU big thinkers include Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin and Steven Crowder. That is JBP’s context.

            • RedLogix 20.2.1.1.3.1
              16 August 2018 at 7:32 pm

              Absolutely he’s a conservative, but it’s a mistake to view him through an exclusively political lens.

              • arkie …
                16 August 2018 at 8:42 pm

                It’s a mistake to view him as anything but another slippery right wing sophist spreading reactionary illiberal ideas and chicken-soup-for-the-soul-equivalent self-help for profit.

                • RedLogix …
                  16 August 2018 at 8:50 pm

                  I think the more obvious mistake I’ve made is to think you might have been arguing in good faith. My bad.

                  • arkie …
                    16 August 2018 at 9:06 pm

                    Jordan ‘My Bad’ Peterson

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO9j1SLxEd0

                    I’m not arguing with you Red, in faith or otherwise. I have listened to and read Peterson and fail to see his value to the readers of a left-wing blog.

                    • RedLogix …
                      16 August 2018 at 9:14 pm

                      For the simple reason that he points to why the left has been do bloody useless for so many decades.

                      Still I can understand why a lot of people here might not want to see much value in that. Orwell was right about middle class socialists.

                    • arkie …
                      16 August 2018 at 9:36 pm

                      He doesn’t understand what the left is, and he is paid by the other team.

                      As far as I see it, the left started failing the moment they listened to the right and started their third way triangulation and neo-liberal economics.

                      The left needs to move left, big ‘S’ socialism is popular with future voters, the last thing we on the left should do is platform people who disingenuously misrepresent it.

                      .

                      And what did Orwell say about middle-class socialists? Was it this:

                      middle-class socialists don’t care about the poor, they just hate the rich

                      Which, interestingly enough, is Jordan B Peterson’s summary of an excerpt in Chapter 11 of Orwell’s “The Road to Wigan Pier”
                      reproduced here: https://www.quora.com/What-s-the-full-Orwell-quote-that-is-often-paraphrased-that-middle-class-socialists-don-t-care-about-the-poor-they-just-hate-the-rich-Where-was-it-written

                      For context.

                    • RedLogix []
                      16 August 2018 at 10:31 pm

                      Well that’s a decent response. Fleshing out Orwell’s quote is actually appreciated. In my experience here it’s not the whole story, but it’s too often a pretty fat subplot.

                      I agree that the entire left wing enterprise needs to reinvent itself. But exactly what lessons from our own bloody past are we willing to admit to?

            • Redlogix 20.2.1.1.3.2
              16 August 2018 at 7:42 pm

              It is of course insane to label Peterson a Nazi. But because men are forbidden to attack women (in any manner) then exactly what recourse does any man have and retain respect?

              The only option is to walk away. That seems perfectly real to me.

  21. Jenny 21
    16 August 2018 at 1:49 pm

    Aussies brace themselves for the new normal.

    How long before Australian citizens are in the situation, that refugees the Australian state are persecuting are?

    ‘It’s all bad’: Earliest total fire bans on record an ominous sign
    Peter Hannam – Sydney Morning Herald, August 15, 2018

    https://www.smh.com.au/environment/weather/it-s-all-bad-earliest-total-fire-bans-on-record-an-ominous-sign-20180815-p4zxn8.html

    • RedLogix 21.1
      16 August 2018 at 4:21 pm

      Got back to Brissy a few days ago; August and it hasn’t rained all winter. Dry as a something Aussie proverbial.

    • dukeofurl 21.2
      16 August 2018 at 6:16 pm

      “The bans beat the previous earliest such declarations anywhere in NSW by almost two weeks, according to NSW Rural Fire Service records going back to 2009”

      Should say earliest fire ban since 2009!
      using these silly comparisons does no good. No doubt it is one of the drier periods but making a ridiculous claim serves no use.

      https://www.smh.com.au/environment/weather/it-s-all-bad-earliest-total-fire-bans-on-record-an-ominous-sign-20180815-p4zxn8.html

    • Exkiwiforces 21.3
      16 August 2018 at 10:43 pm

      Here’s a couple of articles from the Australian ABC’s News website that sort’ve explains what’s going with our Australian weather atm.

      Which is getting a wee bit unusual atm for example an early start to the fire season in SE Queensland and parts NSW, an early start to the build up season prior to the start of the wet season (to a point my wife and I have noticed are ants moving to dryer areas, cane toads are getting more actived, the banya trees are breaking in new leaves and even today I felt a few drops of rain. All of this and many more such activities is something we don’t see to about the end of September or early to mid October). I’ve heard dad mention when he was a kid at the Hill that you would see Roo’s hoping around urban areas, but emu’s during a drought and Broken Hill being class a city is the first major city to natives roaming the its streets as smaller towns have had happen already.

      I’ve spent the last odd 20 yrs in some pretty remote areas, outback towns, and regional towns to the big smoke with work and play. Over that period I’ve notice that wee changes to the environment are to become big changes and the landholders, farmers, station mangers that I’ve known over the have gone back to their records to found tends to changes to the weather/ environment have now started to understand that CC is now becoming a real big concern because the trends to the weather/ environment of the many years/ decades.

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-14/southern-annular-mode-and-how-it-affects-our-weather/10106134

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-01/what-you-need-to-know-about-droughts/10051956

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-16/emus-take-over-broken-hill/10122430

  22. Morrissey 22
    16 August 2018 at 5:06 pm

    Tim Watkin is a marked improvement on Jim Mora, but he
    burbled out something really foolish this afternoon.
    The Panel, RNZ National, Thursday 16 Aug. 2018, 4:50 p.m.
    Tim Watkin, Nevil “Breivik” Gibson, Paula Penfold, Julie Moffett

    In the course of a mainly serious discussion about the bombing of a school in Kabul, host Tim Watkin made a rather thoughtless and naïve comment. I quickly sent him a quick update from the real world….

    Afghan fighters are neither unique nor bizarre in their strategy of violence

    Dear Tim,

    You said: “In Afghanistan, violence is seen as a negotiating strategy, bizarrely.” That implies that Afghanistan’s factions resorting to violence is unusual, even unique.

    That will come as a surprise to anyone familiar with the history, including the very recent history, of the United States, France, the U.K., Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Syria and many other regimes that routinely resort to the most extreme violence.

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

  23. R.P Mcmurphy 23
    16 August 2018 at 8:40 pm

    Question Time in the house is getting to the point of embarrassment. The Nationals are belabouring the same points ove r and over and it is getting tedious and boring.

    • ianmac 23.1
      17 August 2018 at 8:33 am

      Agreed RP. The silly thing is that the Nats don’t seem to realise that their questions do not get them any further ahead. Perhaps the repetitions hope to get them mileage in the eyes of some reporters. But really?
      And Trevor seems to be getting tougher on Labour.

    • Gabby 23.2
      17 August 2018 at 1:41 pm

      Is ‘I refer the member opposite to my answer of 20 June’ considered unparliamentary?

  24. eco maori 24
    17 August 2018 at 5:35 am

    I tried to find Aretha Frankijn’s song It’s A Man’s World can’t find it ??????????????.
    These 2 will do fine to honer a Great African American Lady .

  25. eco maori 25
    17 August 2018 at 5:44 am

    This is how a real Man behaves

  26. eco maori 26
    17 August 2018 at 8:20 am

    Good morning The Am Show condolences to Aretha Franklin whano
    Eco Maori they to find her great song It’s A Man’s World could not find it that’s telling me something oppression of the Ladys so it’s not just Japan that is doing this.
    Duncan The New Aotearoa Government has only been in Parliament for a few month’s
    not 3 year’s I will say this the Media should have some respect for OUR new Prime minster she got thrown into leading the Labour Party 2 to3 month’s before a election won enough support to form a Government. Then she has a baby this is no easy feat and the Media hound her looking for any flaw’s to exasperate and shonky could cheat and lie and get minimal exposes from the media
    about those major flaws we know that it’s the neo capitalist mone that cause’s this Phenomenal flaw’s with OUR media ana to kai.
    This M bovis disaster is the national party mess that the New Government has to clean up if we ended up with foot and mouth from this sweep under the carpet that shonky is a master at it would have devastated our economy costing 10’s of billions stuffing our primary exports earning & reputation for 50 years. There is a small % of people who will cheat and don’t care if there way’s ruin the Aotearoa.
    With OUR road accidents number going up when you jam a xtra 500.000 vehicals 700.000 people and then choke the funding for roads cut police number’s instead of increasing them well the road accident rate is going to go up. Ka kite ano P.S Eco Maori can’t even get a job because the undercover sandfly’s interfering I got a business thinking I would be fine but the sandfly’s went and seen every one of my clients so they started leaving me this made the business un economical this cost me $50 k in all loses

  27. eco maori 27
    17 August 2018 at 10:06 am

    My last job a cop & marked cop car parked outside the address for a hole day I was trying to get a job there .Here’s a link to a story and read the comments on how the nz police behave in reality well cop’s all over Papatuanuku are the same when one does not have to answer for there wrong’s the think they can do what ever they like and the state will cover it up.
    Can’t have everyone know that they are human

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/106315821/mcleod-nicholas-role-in-the-haumaha-controversy-leaves-me-uneasy

  28. eco maori 28
    17 August 2018 at 11:29 am

    There you go these organizations that have been hiding the real fact’s about some of there products deserve the Wrath from Eco Maori the link is below ka kite ano.
    P.S this is why I back organics food production its good for Papatuanuku and the mokopuna’s

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/aug/16/weedkiller-cereal-monsanto-roundup-childrens-food

  29. eco maori 29
    17 August 2018 at 12:32 pm

    With this technological break we don’t need to use genetic engineering to help produce food we can use the tried and safe way that is plant breeding Ka pai link below
    Ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/aug/16/scientists-sequence-wheat-genome-in-breakthrough-once-thought-impossible P.S this genetic sequencing would have completed earlier if GE people did not suppress the tec

  30. eco maori 30
    17 August 2018 at 1:46 pm

    Some music to let te tangata whenua know Eco Maori is there for you well not just tangata whenua for all the common people link below

  31. eco maori 31
    17 August 2018 at 6:46 pm

    Good evening Newshub I still can not find Aretha Franklin’s best song to Eco Maori on youtube IT’s A MAN WORLD . I had all her cd 25 year ago My wife and cousin blasted her song’s
    I seen this story on Stuff website The hospital did not even check my mokopuna health problem correctly so they did not even find the problem so there was no debate about weather to give her antibiotics or not .
    I’m busy with the mokopuna’s .
    Hope the weather is good to us Ingred Ka kite ano
    P.S I no Jame Brown wrote and sung It’s A MAN’S WORLD but Aretha covered it and I say see was the best

  32. eco maori 32
    17 August 2018 at 7:19 pm

    Good evening The Crowd Goes Wild Wairangi and the boss man Rick I seen you around young fella lol you mite have to send Mull’s to some UFC training after last nite lol
    plenty of confidence Wai ka pai tangata whenua need more of that yes I can hit a golf ball but that’s it E Hoa
    It will a be good game of Rugby this weekend .
    Ka kite ano