Open Mike 16/10/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 16th, 2018 - 177 comments
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177 comments on “Open Mike 16/10/2018 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    16 October 2018 at 6:19 am

    Burnt Bridges today?

    • Dennis Frank 1.1
      16 October 2018 at 6:26 am

      Not according to key players in the Nat caucus: https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/368736/ross-facing-wrath-of-party-and-possible-expulsion

      “Under the waka-jumping law if the caucus votes to expel Jami-Lee Ross he must be given 21 days to respond and Mr Bridges must also be able to show that Mr Ross has acted in a way that distorts the proportionality of Parliament and is likely to keep doing it. Once all those boxes are ticked, Mr Bridges could notify the Speaker of a vacancy. If Mr Ross is eventually expelled, that will force a by-election in his Botany electorate. National’s caucus meeting will start at about 10.30am.”

      • Muttonbird 1.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 7:20 am

        Bridges and the National Party caucus would become even more of a laughing stock if they used the waka-jumping law after being so vigorously against it.

      • alwyn 1.1.2
        16 October 2018 at 10:12 am

        The operative word here is “could” as in “could notify the Speaker of a vacancy”.
        He doesn’t have to do anything except kick Ross out of the Caucus.
        In fact National can probably continue to cast Ross’s vote, at least if he isn’t in the House.
        The only way Ross could prevent that would be to tell The Speaker that he wished to be treated as an Independent member, not a National one.
        If he did that of course HE would trigger his own expulsion from the House.

      • Dukeofurl 1.1.3
        16 October 2018 at 11:14 am

        “Mr Bridges must also be able to show that Mr Ross has acted in a way that distorts the proportionality of Parliament”

        Doesnt quite say ‘be able to show’ instead the wording is broader

        “state that the parliamentary leader reasonably believes that the member of Parliament concerned has acted in a way that has distorted, and is likely to continue to distort, the proportionality of political party representation in Parliament as determined at the last general election;”

        Reasonably believes distortion of Nats representation.

        This could happen for instance if national loses questions in the house or positions on committees. The national leaders office could lose funding when Ross goes

    • mac1 1.2
      16 October 2018 at 9:23 am

      Will anyone want to cross Bridges after today?

      • SpaceMonkey 1.2.1
        16 October 2018 at 10:22 am

        Will there be any Bridges to cross?

      • Sacha 1.2.2
        16 October 2018 at 10:23 am

        over troubled waters.

        • greywarshark 1.2.2.1
          16 October 2018 at 10:32 am

          A cliche’ I know – Will that be a Bridges too far? At this time anyway. The choice is between two youngish men with no sense of serving the whole country and a vision of well-being for NZ that they tap into each morning.

          • mac1 1.2.2.1.1
            16 October 2018 at 10:57 am

            Rather than cross that bridge I’d go round the long way instead of paying the toll.

            Anyway, the Nats have plenty more bridges to choose from but will they span the divide within the National party let alone across to the wider voters? At the moment they’re like the bridge at Avignon- cut off midstream, no traffic, suspect load-bearing, medieval foundations, and good only for watching the dancing.

            • mac1 1.2.2.1.1.1
              16 October 2018 at 11:35 am

              On principle, J-L Ross has decided he may not pay the toll.

              Right or wrong, he stands upon principle and will place himself outside of his party and parliament to seek re-election and a mandate from his electorate.

              Good for him!

            • gsays 1.2.2.1.1.2
              16 October 2018 at 2:51 pm

              Regardless of who and when, it’s going to be a swing bridge.

          • mac1 1.2.2.1.2
            17 October 2018 at 7:57 am

            Or a Bridges to Nowhere.

            The original bridge cost a thousand pounds! Simon cost us a bit more……….

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_to_Nowhere_(New_Zealand)

            On the subject of Simon Bridges and what he would do with the $5.5 bn, the riposte would be easily returned that it would be there to pay for the ten bridges that he promised, but never delivered upon; to pay for all the things that he should have promised but didn’t; for the non-delivery of things he should have delivered upon; and for the fixing of things he delivered upon in an ineffectual manner.

    • Muttonbird 2.1
      16 October 2018 at 7:31 am

      It’s the height of what is so wrong with the US. To nakedly state that the interests of the arms industry trumps all else demands that global conflict be maintained and even nurtured and grown.

      That is a truely revolting concept.

    • Chuck 2.2
      16 October 2018 at 9:13 am

      Welcome to reality Ed.

      If it was not the US selling arms it would be the Russians, Chinese, France, UK, etc…

      • solkta 2.2.1
        16 October 2018 at 9:17 am

        Such sound moral logic there. Now i can start selling P conscience free knowing that if i don’t someone else in my neighborhood will.

        • Chuck 2.2.1.1
          16 October 2018 at 9:23 am

          “Now i can start selling P conscience free knowing that if i don’t someone else in my neighborhood will.”

          Yes, you could solkta – if you have decided to become a P dealer/cook.

          Maybe its gone a little over your head, but the countries listed above ALL have major armament industry.

          • solkta 2.2.1.1.1
            16 October 2018 at 9:24 am

            I think it is the concept of morality that is a little over your head.

            • Chuck 2.2.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2018 at 9:51 am

              solkta you can try to imply I have no morality and that somehow by me pointing out the facts confirms it.

              If you want to change the world, my friend, firstly you need to understand how and why it works the way it does.

              The major powers are alike and different in equal amounts. On the question of morality, I am sure they all think they are moral. That’s the issue.

            • greywarshark 2.2.1.1.1.2
              16 October 2018 at 10:39 am

              solkta
              I think that is a perfect example of when pragmatism has to be reined in, and that deciding to carry out a negative-resulting action is okay, because others are doing it. It actually goes to the how and when to apply morality and ethics in a community.

    • Tuppence Shrewsbury 2.3
      16 October 2018 at 9:30 am

      but when putin does it it’s ok right?

      • mauī 2.3.1
        16 October 2018 at 10:17 am

        Putin was invited by an elected Syrian Government to battle insurgents that have been tearing a country apart.

      • adam 2.3.2
        16 October 2018 at 12:54 pm

        No, but you can point out the hypocrisy of the US who says they support freedom and democracy. At least we all get Putin’s russia is a thuggish state, it’s not hiding behind nice words.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    16 October 2018 at 6:40 am

    Remember this from late August? “The author of the text warned they suffered from mental health problems in the past and said being exposed publicly could push them over the edge and put their life at risk.”

    And this: “2 October: National MP Jami-Lee Ross stands down from his portfolios and from the front bench of the opposition, citing personal health issues. In a statement, Mr Ross said he had asked for time off on medical leave for “a few months”.” https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/368705/national-leak-scandal-what-we-know-so-far

    And now: “his outburst on Twitter, accusing his leader of forcing him out on medical leave and of unlawful behaviour (which Mr Bridges denies), would make it untenable for him to stay in the caucus under the current leadership.” https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/on-the-inside/368728/power-play-jami-lee-ross-looking-to-take-simon-bridges-down-with-him

    So JLR is now directly contradicting himself. Makes us wonder if that’s a symptom of mental health problems, eh? If he has been diagnosed with such, why not tell the public in order to get sympathy? Lack of support for him in caucus will make it clear that he had no viability as a leadership contender, and it was all driven by hostility towards his leader.

    • Treetop 3.1
      16 October 2018 at 7:11 am

      JLR needs to be given the benefit of the doubt by the National caucus. When the content of JLR’s texts and the texts of the people who replied are known, this will be revealing.

      It can be said that Bridges is being selective on what issue he is prepared to give JLR medical leave for.

      Either way JLR is under pressuse.

      JLR can resign whenever he wants to. The National party would not want the issue to drag on.

      • Treetop 3.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 7:21 am

        The contents of the alleged tape between JLR and Bridges needs to be revealed.

        • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.1
          16 October 2018 at 7:33 am

          That could now be the crux of the situation. If the tape is real! The Herald editorial today has a focus on this, along with observing that Bridges has spent months setting himself up. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/107850211/national-leader-simon-bridges-needs-his-mps-100-per-cent-behind-him

          If the tape is real, and proof of law-breaking, Bridges will be gone. If JLR doesn’t promptly give it to the police, then it probably does not exist. Cue focus on the mental health problem.

          If the police find insufficient evidence on the tape to prosecute Bridges, depends on how everyone sees the grey area. The thesis that the police prosecutor votes National will circulate. If what’s on the tape suggests unethical behaviour re mishandling of donations, Bridges will be found guilty in the court of public opinion regardless.

          • Muttonbird 3.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2018 at 7:40 am

            That’s the second time you’ve linked to the Watkins article.

            Are you trying to direct the National Party narrative?

          • Incognito 3.1.1.1.2
            16 October 2018 at 7:45 am

            Send the tape to a reputable NZ journalist; there’re still a few left.

            • Muttonbird 3.1.1.1.2.1
              16 October 2018 at 8:14 am

              Ross is looking for the hush money the Nats will surely pay him to keep quiet. Yesterday’s tweets were to show he means business. You can be sure that if the recording don’t surface then the Nats have been that petrified that they’ve paid Ross whatever he wants.

              • Treetop …
                16 October 2018 at 9:04 am

                National have a precedent paying out to not have the contents of a tape revealed. Not sure if Barclay’s electorate worker was made to sign a confidentiality clause. Did she not blow the whistle because of her loyalty to English or that life could be made difficult for her.

                JLR has some big decisions to make.

                Will he resign?
                Will he continue to take medical leave?
                Will he reveal the contents of texts, phone calls and taping?
                Will he fight expulsion?
                Does he have evidence of a matter which has not been disclosed and he will expose the dishonesty of a caucus member and implicate Bridges?

                Some have said that Bridges may come out looking stronger. JLR may come out being the person who blew the whistle because it needed to be done.

                As for the Bridges expense leaker, I feel that this was a warning shot. If it was JLR he will have to reveal the reason for denying this or it may become obvious why he denied it.

        • alwyn 3.1.1.2
          16 October 2018 at 10:16 am

          I think a matter of much more significance is the release of the Secret clauses in the Labour/New Zealand First agreement.
          What things did Labour commit to in order to get the baubles of Office?
          You will no doubt support this demand will you Treetop?

          • Treetop 3.1.1.2.1
            16 October 2018 at 1:54 pm

            I’d rather like to hear the buried tape recordings from the Clutha-Southland electoral office when Barclay was the MP.

            If you do not like the fact that an entire coalition agreement is not made public do something about it.

            • alwyn 3.1.1.2.1.1
              16 October 2018 at 2:02 pm

              That was tried.
              The Coalition of Losers leaders claimed that it was exempt from the OIA and refused to release it.

              • Treetop …
                16 October 2018 at 2:30 pm

                Is it the privacy commissioner or the ombudsman who has the final say. They are who you need to contact.

                The Privacy Act’s main purpose is not confidentiality, it is to have control over the information.

                New legislation is required to replace/update the Privacy Act.

  4. Sanctuary 4
    16 October 2018 at 6:58 am

    I tried changing my FB password to SimonBridges, but Facebook said it was to weak.

    • Incognito 4.1
      16 October 2018 at 7:41 am

      Of course it is. Change it to #Goneby12.00noon.

      The best way for National to move forward is to expel JLR and roll SB as leader and pick a new leader, for the interim.

      • Dennis Frank 4.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 7:50 am

        Probably correct, but Boag predicted to Garner this morning that caucus will be unanimous against Ross, and if so that will make Bridges stronger due to lack of competitors. Short-term only, really, eh?

        • Cinny 4.1.1.1
          16 October 2018 at 8:22 am

          Hahahahahaha spin it boag, spin it.

          • Tricledrown 4.1.1.1.1
            17 October 2018 at 7:04 am

            Remember Boags kiss of Death for bungling Billingsh.
            So Boags backing Bridges kiss of Death.
            Paddy Gower comments on Nationals civil war.
            Paddy says this is poison for National
            Nothing good for National it will eat away at National as Police get involved.

        • Incognito 4.1.1.2
          16 October 2018 at 8:31 am

          Ah yes, the united party front 😉

          Did Boag spin away the abysmal internal polling as well?

          • Dennis Frank 4.1.1.2.1
            16 October 2018 at 8:37 am

            Good question! Garner didn’t ask her that, but she’s unlikely to be aware of the current numbers – unless the Nats still use her as consultant.

          • alwyn 4.1.1.2.2
            16 October 2018 at 10:25 am

            National Party insider are you Inc?
            Why don’t you tell us what the polling numbers are?

            Remember how before the last election Andrew would tell us what the Labour Party internal polling was whenever he thought it had risen above the abysmal level and into the merely terrible range.
            Why aren’t the Labour Party releasing their own numbers if they are so good for Labour and so terrible for National?

            I suspect that they show Labour and National about the same as at the last election but that both the Green and NZF numbers are under the 5% cut off.
            The don’t dare let them out as their minor members in the Coalition of the Lost will have to start charting their own course.
            Come on Labour. Tell us what you know and admit that in an election today it would mean a National Government, no NZF or Green members and Bridges as PM.

            • Incognito 4.1.1.2.2.1
              16 October 2018 at 10:46 pm

              National Party insider are you Inc?

              It takes one to know one, Al.

              Why don’t you tell us what the polling numbers are?

              And you have ways to fact-check those numbers?

            • Tricledrown 4.1.1.2.2.2
              17 October 2018 at 7:07 am

              Alwynger this is Nationals own doing.
              Your desperate deflections look pathetic.
              Are you a National MP or just a Dogmatic Distractor

        • Treetop 4.1.1.3
          16 October 2018 at 9:10 am

          Do you know what the numbers need to be for a vote against JLR?

          • Dennis Frank 4.1.1.3.1
            16 October 2018 at 9:42 am

            No, I have no idea how the Nat caucus operates, but I expect Boag to be clued up enough via her contacts that she’ll be proven right. If any other senior Nat was supporting JLR, they’d already have gone public with a sensible rationale to do so. They know how vital it is for National to remain strong as opposition.

  5. Ed 5
    16 October 2018 at 6:58 am

    A culture of bullying, sexual violence, drinking and cover-ups……

    ….. in the military.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/368668/nicky-hager-reveals-fresh-allegations-on-nzdf-cover-ups-and-abuse

    …….in sport

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/sport/368683/sex-lies-bullies-and-alcohol-lead-to-wheels-coming-off-cycling-programme

    ……..in law firms

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11996826

    When are we going to join the dots in this country and tackle our overall culture of bullying, sexual violence, drinking and cover-ups?

  6. esoteric pineapples 6
    16 October 2018 at 8:29 am

    Excellent interview with Stephanie Kelton, Bernie Sander’s economist in the 2016 campaign who explains Modern Monetary Theory and how it works, plus says a lot of other interesting things

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 6.1
      16 October 2018 at 4:46 pm

      That is an excellent video. Still leaves a lot of questions to answer, but good introduction.

      I hope a lot of people in Labour start looking at this, instead of repeating same totally incorrect assumptions about how state finances work.

  7. esoteric pineapples 7
    16 October 2018 at 8:41 am

    Given New Zealand’s two independently owned daily newspapers, the Wairarapa Times Age and Otago Daily Times are doing well, when the world is decrying the loss of newspapers due to changing habits, does this suggest that the demise of newspapers in New Zealand and places like the United States has more to do with corporate ownership than the Internet?
    Wherever the news is concentrated into fewer and fewer hands, the quality of news seems to inevitably go down, followed by fewer sales, and more closures.
    The state of radio is even worse. In many regions of New Zealand, where once each provincial town had one radio station that had its own local staff, djs and news journalists, now these towns have a plethora of robot radio stations to listen to, but no content whatsoever other than music and adverts, and definitely no local news. And yet concentrating all these radio stations into the hands of fewer corporates seems to lead to perpetually reducing the number of staff, news content, and even profitability.

    • SaveNZ 7.1
      16 October 2018 at 8:52 am

      +1 esoteric pineapples

    • cleangreen 7.2
      16 October 2018 at 8:57 am

      We now should be considering that several regional papers should be publicly bought by a crowd funding policy move?

      That way the regions will finally have back their own voice again as our family want to contribute to a move to take over local papers now, so can the Standard start a crowd funding project for each province?

    • gsays 7.3
      16 October 2018 at 3:39 pm

      I have not listened to ugly (commercial) radio for many moons.
      The exception being the odd rugby test and occasional cricket broadcast.

      Rnz, local student radio (radio control) and lately radio access.
      Far more interesting and diverse and in the case of the last two very reflective of our community.

  8. Chris T 8
    16 October 2018 at 8:45 am

    I see the Megsta’ and Hazza have just announced they are preggers.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/107865975/prince-harry-and-meghan-markle-are-expecting-a-baby

    Good luck to them

    • greywarshark 8.1
      16 October 2018 at 4:21 pm

      It demeans someone to have their name changed and distorted unless they agree with it. Are you a Christian, just happen to be Chris T-something and never noticed how it can be read as ChrisT, or is that deliberate?

  9. SaveNZ 9
    16 October 2018 at 8:53 am

    President Donald Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner paid almost no income tax for years

    “An example of this was in 2015, when Mr Kushner took home US$1.7 million in salary and investment gains, but his earnings were swamped by US$8.3 million in losses because of “significant depreciation” on his real estate.”

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/10/president-donald-trump-s-son-in-law-jared-kushner-paid-almost-no-income-tax-for-years.html

    • SaveNZ 9.1
      16 October 2018 at 9:01 am

      Great (sarcasm) to see that under the new IRD proposed ring fencing of loses rules developers, builders and the BIG business for construction are exempt so the loopholes to transfer losses on paper are still available to them.

      aka

      “• land that is on revenue account because it is held in a land-related business5 (that is, a business of land dealing, development of land, division of land, or building).”

      Phew, and I thought it might be bad news for billionaires owning billions of dollars of land and real estate in NZ, and they might have less financial engineering to fall back on under the new rules. But of course not. Don’t want to upset big business.

      • Sabine 9.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 9:19 am

        I have been waiting for Mr. Twyford to close these loopholes and crickets. Nothing more but a load of crickets.

        and yes, i would vote again for the Greens or labour as really they are the lesser evil, and clearly that is the only choice we have, but this current bunch is not even trying.

        Surely anytime now J.A will come and wave her magic wand to do something to solve the housing crisis.

        Any day now…………………….

        • SaveNZ 9.1.1.1
          16 October 2018 at 9:32 am

          Petty sure we still have the 0% tax havens too, but they just can’t be quite as secret as they were under Key.

          • SaveNZ 9.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2018 at 9:41 am

            Don’t worry the government are just targeting residential rental property that we have a shortage of, but not looking at the multinationals or commercial or builders or land developers and holders that are currently building stuff that people in this country on local wages can no longer afford to buy and big developers are being given subsidies and PPP’s by government and councils with NZ taxes and assets.

            Apparently under ‘trickle down’ that helps first home buyers, so if they give up their avocado smashes they can somehow buy that 30 million Waiheke or Queenstown hideaway or a 5 million penthouse, billion dollar luxury hotel, stadium, and ‘gold bricks’ apartments, that the above construction are increasingly developing here subsidised by the taxpayers and with offshore cheap labour the the ratepayers will end up guarenteeing.

            • SaveNZ 9.1.1.1.1.1
              16 October 2018 at 9:55 am

              If you are one of those poor people in Auckland stuggling to buy a house on your $180k salary, you can apply for Kiwibuild, for the poor…

              You have to wonder if $180k is the top salary for the poor under Kiwibuild, what about the increasing amount of people on $40k many of whom are being bought in by business to work in their cafe’s and building sites and are instantly needing taxpayer subsidy for wages and living, cos I can’t seem much long term housing being available to them and they are competing with the poor that were already in this country?

              • Dukeofurl …
                16 October 2018 at 11:26 am

                $180k is the limit for a ‘couple’ to buy Kiwibuild home, its not a ‘floor’

                There are a lot more state rental homes being built for the those who cant even afford a deposit for a KB home let alone repayments.

                previously first home buyers were being outbid by investors for homes at the bottom end. This means they have a fixed price and dont have the house rising in price before their eyes at auction.

                But since you were in favour of the previous system saveNZ, how was that helping first home buyers – other than keeping them renting.

                • SaveNZ …
                  16 October 2018 at 11:56 am

                  I’m not in favour of the old system, Dukeofurl, I’m in favour of a new system that actually bans foreign buyers off ALL residential and land property as well as ensuring that for every low cost family or individual who earns under $40k can get a state house and also tax rules tightened up in particular for those who are recent citizens and the new New Zealanders so that they don’t rout the system and make things worse for locals and operate satellite families and get free super and health while the locals paying taxes get a poorer service, at the same time clean up and make foreign businesses and multinationals operating in NZ pay real taxes for the privilege.

                  Sorry that is so threatening for some lefties.

                  • SaveNZ …
                    16 October 2018 at 11:59 am

                    Kiwibuild is based on the Thatcher and third way ideology… or in the NZ context, National party and Rogernomics ideology.

                    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/26/right-to-buy-margaret-thatcher-david-cameron-housing-crisis

                    “Whether these terms represented a good deal for the state, which had after all built these homes and would lose the rental income from them, was not something the manifesto explored. Nor were related, even more fundamental questions. Would the country be left with enough cheap homes after the sell-off? And would the policy backfire if the population, and therefore the demand for housing, rose? Given that the UK was part of the EU, and also linked by other busy immigration routes to its vast former empire, and to the US, a stable or falling population, as had existed throughout the 1970s – a period of perceived British decline that Thatcher had noisily promised to reverse – could hardly be assumed.”

                    But effectively it was. The right to buy, say Jones and Murie, “was introduced at a time of some complacency in British housing policy … For the first time in over a century there was not a shortage.”

                    “Meanwhile rents for remaining council tenants rose with a new alacrity. By 1991 they were 55% higher, relative to average earnings, than they had been 10 years earlier. “If it were not for the right to buy,” conclude Jones and Murie, “the council housing sector as a whole would have generated huge surpluses [from rental income] and the rise in real rents … would not have been necessary.” Or to put it more directly: home ownership was made possible for wealthier council tenants through discounts paid for by their poorer neighbours.”

      • greywarshark 9.1.2
        16 October 2018 at 4:27 pm

        Good one savenz to notice that and provide an example of how useful this tax loophole is to rich USA people.

        Unless that isn’t clearly taken out from our tax-avoidance opportunities in NZ, we will not have any respect for that earnest little circle of men (and women?) who have formed a clique facing outwards providing a defiant defence of the goodies (the investors) against the baddies, all the rest – the ordinary people living on the droppings of the rich.

  10. Rosemary McDonald 10
    16 October 2018 at 8:54 am

    SSDD when it comes to the management of hazardous substances in good old Godzone.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/368744/controversial-chemicals-not-on-new-safety-review-list

    When even those who are profiting from the sale of pesticides are calling for greater controls….

    “Brodifacoum, a chemical used in poison to kill rats and possums, also makes the priority list. It is available for home use under the name Pest-Off.

    Chief executive of Orillion, the firm that produces Pest-Off, William McCook, said he encouraged greater restrictions around the use of brodifacoum.

    “In other countries internationally, there are usually greater controls on that in terms of who can purchase it and also, restrictions on how the products are used so I think it is quite timely for New Zealand to have a look at all of those things,” he said.

    “In New Zealand we don’t have a lot of controls on some of the retail products… I think it is the responsible thing to do and it should perhaps not just be home use but all use.””

    ….and are being ignored by the regulatory authority, then we realize what a serious problem we have.

    here’s the list…https://www.epa.govt.nz/industry-areas/hazardous-substances/chemical-reassessment-programme/priority-chemicals-list

    • JC 10.1
      16 October 2018 at 1:49 pm

      SSDD….

      https://sciblogs.co.nz/public-health-expert/2017/08/16/environmental-protection-glyphosate/

      And: – “Dr Freeth has got one thing right. New Zealanders’ “level of distrust in science” is growing. When our EPA is so patently pro-agribusiness, at the expense of the environment, is it any wonder?

      https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/13-12-2017/what-gives-with-the-chief-scientist-of-the-environmental-protection-agency/

      Just one of the Many issues with an earlier morph, and the “current” EPA!

      Hence Eugenie Sage’s brave “involvement” to address this earlier in the year

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/353178/green-mp-accused-of-ministerial-interference

      • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 4:18 pm

        “When our EPA is so patently pro-agribusiness, at the expense of the environment, is it any wonder?”

        And at the expense of human health.

        All of those chemicals on the list score very highly for risk to human health.

        And the agrichemical barons, these princes of toxic polluters claim the chemicals are needed to feed the world.

        I guess that concern about the use of agrichemicals will now be met by the ‘left’ with piles of derision as meets those with concerns about 1080, fluoride, mass vaccinations and the like.

        As was said to me by a peddler of agrichemicals when I pointed out he had for general sale in his store more than one product that was categorized as to be sold only to an Approved Handler…(“oh, and what is a MSDS????”)

        “Look lady, these have been approved for sale, and they wouldn’t have approved them if they wern’t safe. Now would they…???”

        I had hoped for this wee legislative gem to be dug up….http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0008/S00335.htm

        “CHEMICAL TRESPASS WORKING GROUP

        Issues surrounding the withdrawn private member’s Agricultural Chemical Trespass Bill will be addressed by a working group of interested parties, the Minister for the Environment, Marian Hobbs announced today.

        Te Taihauaauru MP, Nanaia Mahuta, withdrew the bill from Parliament’s consideration after persuading the Government to take up the issues covered by the bill.”

        But I guess its not going to happen this decade.

        edit, after taking another jaunt in my time machine….Marion Hobbs…jesus wept, you were so wrong.

        I wondered at which point in the last twenty years that respect for politicians of all hues was lost.

        It was over this. ‘ We’ll have us a working group, involve the stakeholders, examine the evidence and draw together various agencies to protect the rights of the masses from agrichemical trespass and we’ll wrap it all up in so many pieces of legislation that no bugger will be able to figure out whose up whom and who’s paying. ‘

        SSDD

      • Stuart Munro 10.1.2
        16 October 2018 at 4:23 pm

        Hitting the nail on the head there.

        You’ll recall the links you supplied me on trout were done by MPI – yet ostensibly the 1080 campaign is DOC’s.

        If the motivation for the policy is agricultural then they may reasonably be required to take greater responsibility in terms of its social and environmental impacts – including funding greater use of ground teams and bait stations which reduce collateral kills in preference to air drops.

        • JC 10.1.2.1
          16 October 2018 at 9:10 pm

          “You’ll recall the links you supplied me on trout were done by MPI – yet ostensibly the campaign is DOC’s.”

          ostensibly
          /ɒˈstɛnsɪbli/
          adverb
          1. as appears or is stated to be true, though not necessarily so; apparently.

          FYI;

          https://www.epa.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Documents/Hazardous-Substances/1080-reports/Annual-reports/2014-Annual-Report-1080.pdf

          TBfree uses a combination of ground control methods and aerially applied 1080 in its strategy for containing and controlling possums. In 2014, TBfree treated approximately 307,334 hectares of land using aerial application of 1080.

          TBfree’s total pest control area of approximately 10 million hectares.

          DOC manages approximately 8.75 million hectares of conservation land. It uses a combination of ground control methods and aerial application of 1080.

          In 2014, DOC treated approximately 645,3565 hectares for possums or rats using aerial application of 1080. This is a significant increase compared with last year, due to the Battle for our Birds programme undertaken to combat the beech mast-driven pest plague.

          In 2014, regional councils reported aerially applying 1080 to approximately 12,102 hectares of land.

          In 2014, 1080 was aerially applied for rabbit control over approximately 2,220 hectares, a reduction of more than 5,000 hectares from 2013.

          Application information: The pest management cycle for an area under sustained management can span several years. The management cycle could see parts of the larger area treated in rotation or some parts treated more frequently than others, or years with no treatment. For example, some parts of an area under sustained management may be treated by aerial application on a five to seven-year cycle, while other parts of the area may be covered annually by ground control methods.

          See Also TABLE 1: Aerial 1080 treatment area

          On average, TBfree conducts aerial 1080 operations over a considerably larger total area and aerially applies more 1080 than any other user. In most years, TBfree’s aerial treatment accounts for more than half of the total land treated with aerially applied 1080. (See also breakdown, Pg 9.)

          Post-operational water monitoring was carried out for 23 of the aerial 1080 operations in 2014, with 106 samples taken. The tests can detect down to 0.1 micrograms of 1080 per litre of water. Of the 106 samples, only five detected 1080 above the level of detection. All five were well below the TEL.

          And; source references, (omitted yesterday for brevity, and civility), that MPI will have used to validate their position. Re Trout! As the “Lead agency” https://www.mpi.govt.nz/ , i.e. Food Safety.

          http://www.1080facts.co.nz/uploads/2/9/5/8/29588301/cawthron-report-1080-uptake-trout.pdf

          P.O’B. Lyver, J. Ataria, K. Trought & P. Fisher (2005) Sodium fluoroacetate (1080) residues in longfin eels,Anguilla dieffenbachii, following exposure to contaminated water and food, New Zealand Journal of Marine and Freshwater Research, 39:6, 1243-1252, DOI: 10.1080/00288330.2005.9517390

          https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/2968.pdf

          • Stuart Munro 10.1.2.1.1
            16 October 2018 at 9:20 pm

            “On average, TBfree conducts aerial 1080 operations over a considerably larger total area and aerially applies more 1080 than any other user.”

            I had surmised as much from budget data – something called the Animal Health Board was prominent.

            • JC 10.1.2.1.1.1
              16 October 2018 at 10:03 pm

              tbfree.org.nz has moved to ospri.co.nz – please update your bookmarks.

              • Stuart Munro …
                16 October 2018 at 11:53 pm

                Cheers – The toxicology piece is much improved.

                Bit of a trial and error process with baiting one imagines. Something like walnut shells might not be out of order for aerial use – proof against most birdlife, but presenting no obstacle to possums, judging by what they used to make of my ungathered nuts.

  11. riffer 11
    16 October 2018 at 8:59 am

    Wow.

    Just got a news alert from CNN on my phone that claims Saudia Arabia are preparing a press release claiming that Jamal Khashoggi’s death was the result of an interrogation that went wrong.

    That will be interesting.

    https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1051922561846657025

    • SaveNZ 11.1
      16 October 2018 at 9:02 am

      So someone up for murder charges then…

      • riffer 11.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 9:05 am

        Pretty sure they would claim diplomatic immunity on that one…

        • Dukeofurl 11.1.1.1
          16 October 2018 at 11:28 am

          The hit squad arrived from Saudi – you cant be a diplomatic immunity when you arent accredited diplomats.
          Embassys and consulates have lots of staff – only a few have diplomatic immunity.

    • mickysavage 11.2
      16 October 2018 at 9:07 am

      Of course the presence of the bone doctor was totally incidental.

      • SaveNZ 11.2.1
        16 October 2018 at 9:30 am

        yep and letting the embassy staff have the day off, and the 15 member team sent in for 1 day… and their claims he left alive…

      • mac1 11.2.2
        16 October 2018 at 9:50 am

        Yes, the autopsy specialist doctor and a bone saw both brought in for the ‘interrogation’. I presume the spin will be that they intended to give the victim, Khashoggi, full medical care after the interrogation………………

        • Dukeofurl 11.2.2.1
          16 October 2018 at 11:30 am

          Its a full bullshit story- as they did a full denial that anything had even happened.
          No ones going to believe that bullshit – except Trump

          • mac1 11.2.2.1.1
            16 October 2018 at 12:03 pm

            What will also happen is that this incident will also be used to beat up on Trump, as is happening now with his son-in-law’s relationship with the Saudi ruler, and upon Muslims, and upon whoever is out of favour at the moment.

            Whereas I say a pox on all their houses. The same state-inspired killing is widespread throughout the world. It even reached New Zealand with the Rainbow Warrior sinking and killing, a crime sanctioned by the French state, who are supposed to be on ‘our’ side of the forces of liberty, equality, and brotherhood.

            All must be condemned.

            Consider the role of 007, that fictional character much admired in the West. A licensed and sanctioned killer on behalf of his state.

            Can any one else see the disconnect between our outrage over the Saudi criminality here and our fictional heroes from Bond to the Game of Thrones?

            • marty mars 11.2.2.1.1.1
              16 October 2018 at 2:30 pm

              + 1 All must be condemned.

            • McFlock 11.2.2.1.1.2
              16 October 2018 at 2:43 pm

              I play FPS games, that doesn’t mean I cheer for school spree killers or will become one myself.

              We use fiction to get away from real life.

              The reason this crime is getting the attention it does isn’t just the brutality, but also the sheer gall of it. A diplomatic base was almost openly used as a torture, execution, and dismemberment facility for the murder of a journalist. Even without the rumoured recording devices, the “oh he must have left by another entrance” is the alibi of someone who knows they’re untouchable.

              And they’ll get away with it.

              Rude awakening for a lot of people.

            • greywarshark 11.2.2.1.1.3
              16 October 2018 at 3:32 pm

              I can see a disconnect if Bond didn’t kill using torture. Game of Thrones is often OTT. Getting shot is very final, hopefully quick if one is going to die. Torture is not quick and there are lessons in the most effective ways apparently.

              The two don’t compare. It would be good to have no killing at all, but that is not the human way. But there are grades of killing.

    • Kevin 11.3
      16 October 2018 at 9:44 am

      Always on the cards when violence is involved.

      • SaveNZ 11.3.1
        16 October 2018 at 10:00 am

        They need to make the video public to create outrage on what torture and assassinations are really like for their victims… and what the government leaders are agreeing too – when they ok them.

        Saudi are not the only ones, the western government like to do it through middle men, and just kidnap themselves and then hand them over to third parties to torture and kill…

        Time to draw a line, and say torture and assassinations not allowed under any circumstances, we already have the laws, time to enforce them, starting with Saudi.

    • greywarshark 11.4
      16 October 2018 at 11:04 am

      An interrogation that went wrong! God save me from agencies and entities that come up with claims like that to cover their crimes. I hope our police and army don’t take it up as a possible line of explanation, and expiation, and actually never have the need to.

      It follows the cunning and eviscerating description adopted by the USA of ‘extraordinary rendition’ (as opposed to ordinary rendition!). This was chosen as a term to apply to its treatment of terrorists to whom they wanted to apply the level of tortures down to that of unspeakable viciousness. I think the Gestapo and other less civilised countries have also resorted to such tortures.

      (I call it eviscerating because it gets me in my guts).
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition

      But thinking about the term ‘rendition’; it is related to ‘render’ and rendering has a meaning relating to dead animals.
      https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/rendering
      rendering noun (OF DEAD ANIMALS)
      ​…engineering the process of preparing or treating the bodies of dead animals in order to take out the fat and other substances that can be used in other products:
      the rendering of beef products
      a rendering plant

      Playing with words by calling it ‘an interrogation that went wrong’ is the work of evil people, and pretending to be using vicious abuse of people for a righteous case as is used as an excuse, is despicable. And it seems that all Great Powers do this when looking at history, near or far, so what is truly great about the civilisation that flows from them?

      • SaveNZ 11.4.1
        16 October 2018 at 11:29 am

        Yep, that guy was probably luckier than most of the hundreds of thousands of renditions because they only had a limited time frame to torture him.

        It’s abhorrent. We have international laws to stop it, and should never had allowed the practise to go on.

        Now we have Obama with the most drone assassinations in presidency, Trump in charge of the Nukes, climate change already here but being ignored, and abhorrent individual assassinations from government leaders becoming the norm.

        At least this one, captured the press for a microsecond before the spin starts and it disappears.

      • gsays 11.4.2
        16 October 2018 at 3:53 pm

        Well grey, it seems marginally better approach than our defence force tactic of deny, deny, attack the journalist, discredit the evidence then announce a secret enquiry of their own by their own.

        Remarkably similar to the cops.

        Politicians too come to think of it,.

        • greywarshark 11.4.2.1
          16 October 2018 at 4:10 pm

          Sorry what was marginally better than our fibbing, denials and cover-ups?

          As Treetop has pointed out it can be soul-destroying to be questioned and harrassed and acccused; and cause a breakdown of ‘metal health’. But the harm is of a different sort to physical torture. But then there is psychological torture dealt at a high level leading to madness. That psycho style could be classified as what the Manus Island concentration camp detainees are suffering.

          It is awful to be classifying cruelty into grades. I don’t know how we manage to compartmentalise the awful things we hear. It diminishes us yet we are surrounded by it. Soon we will be celebrating the end? of WW1 as if it ushered in a new dawn from the last ignoble event that happened to humans. But no.

          The Armistice of 11 November 1918 was the armistice that ended fighting on land, sea and air in World War I between the Allies and their opponent, Germany.

          • gsays 11.4.2.1.1
            16 October 2018 at 6:26 pm

            I was referring to the Saudi’s belated acknowledgement of the death of Khashoggi and contrasting it to the current stance of our defence force.

            • greywarshark 11.4.2.1.1.1
              16 October 2018 at 7:34 pm

              Thanks – bit different though. The DF here have got caught up with that difficulty of not being able to identify clearly who the enemy are. What I am thinking of is, during the Vietnam war, there was a desire by the USA and allies for a death or injured count IIRR.

              That resulted in the USA or allied forces attacking people who might possibly be connected to the enemy. As the enemy forced the locals to provide them with food and shelter then they were assisting the enemy and were considered as enemy sympathisers and so legitimate targets.

              The violent torture as it seems it was, of this poor man is shocking – shooting the messenger, the questioning journalist, happens often at present. But these Saudis in Turkey seem to have taken this further as I said earlier, to Gestapo level or perhaps beyond.

              I think in the case of our DF identified by Hager, a 10 year old boy was sho t IIRR. He was defending his home I think. People have talked about shooting a child, but no doubt one who could handle a gun quite capably. In the view of hostilities thinking, that made him a legitimate target.

              The fact is that the western forces should not now be there at all. I would want to shoot invaders and there it seems to go on and on, and when is it going to end? It is a disaster every day and all this fighting has affected a huge number of countries and the disintegration of established societies and the refugee rush that has destabilised Europe. WTF do they think they are doing? Do they think at all?

              • gsays …
                16 October 2018 at 8:32 pm

                Do they think at all?

                The last thing the PTB want is a soldier that thinks.

                As it turns out I am in Cambodia and have visited two horrific sites, prison S21, a former high school used by Pol Pot’s henchman Khang Khek (Comrade Duch) to torture and execute suspects. (Including Kiwi Kerry Hamill).
                Also one of the killing fields just out of Phnom Penh.
                Absolutely heart breaking the inhumanity displayed by one Khmer to another.

                This is in contrast to the Vietnam Remnants Museum in Hong Chi Minh.
                Probably the hardest few hours I have spent in a museum.
                What America and their allies visited on Vietnam and Cambodia is despicable. Experimental chemical warfare, phosphorus bombs, B52s bombing civilian targets and the damage continues for generations.

                Why, to protect capitalism and stop the ‘Commies’.

                You are right, western troops should not be there now.

                However the reason is the same, protect capitalism’s interests and stop the ‘Commies’

  12. Treetop 12
    16 October 2018 at 9:20 am

    See ACC have a strict criteria on accepting a claim for PTSD from police officers.

    There has to be a single incident which caused the PTSD. This is bullshit as an accumulation of incidents can end up being the cause.

    A person either has the diagnosis of PTSD or they do not.

    There needs to be a change in ACC practise on the matter of mental injury claims.

    • greywarshark 12.1
      16 October 2018 at 11:09 am

      +100
      The money-making ACC drive has become paramount, not that of serving the needs of people as when it was set up. Your points Treetop go right to the heart of the matter. And heart needs to be in there as well as financial prudence.!!

      • Treetop 12.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 2:18 pm

        I am surprised that ACC sensitive claims do not ask a person with mental injury caused by sexual violation /rape, which incident of sexual violation/rape caused the PTSD.

        My assessment in 2009 asked the question any other significant trauma?

        When I raised what the NZ police have put me through, the response I got was that I had to prove this without having the resources to do so.

        Naive psychiatrist thought he could just ring up the police and they would assist him. He did not ring up the police. I could not complete my claim and I am unable to complete my claim until there is a review of my police complaints.

        • marty mars 12.1.1.1
          16 October 2018 at 2:25 pm

          I misread your initial post. You are talking about a ptsd claim caused by police?

          I am very sorry you have been put through, and still undergoing, this unnecessary additional stress.

          I work with people with ptsd – it is a very challenging state to be in. Kia kaha to you

          • Treetop 12.1.1.1.1
            16 October 2018 at 2:56 pm

            A CIB interview in 1979 triggered fully blowen PTSD. The incident which caused me to be interviewed is complex.

            The way a clever psychologist put it in 2004 was, had sexual offending not have occurred in my childhood the CIB interview would not have impacted as it did. I developed crippling anxiety, OCD and severe depression due to the CIB interview. I threatened to expose a cop in the media. In 2003 he told me why he went to his employer. He said “if you did it and I didn’the report it.”

            This now ex cop after a 38 year career has had depression for 25 years.

            His employer used him for political purposes.

            You did not misread my post. I am genuinely interested in the causes of PTSD.

            I will not comment further.

  13. OnceWasTim 13
    16 October 2018 at 9:23 am

    Fark! Farrar on Nine to Noon …… can someone find me an interpreter?
    I can handle the Quk fuxizz (quick fixes) OK, it’s the spin and bullshit I’m finding a bit challenging. I can even handle the “yee ‘o’s” (you know).
    @Chuck – can you assist with a translayshun goan forwid?
    And thank God it’s Freeman rather than Ryan

    • Rosemary McDonald 13.1
      16 October 2018 at 9:29 am

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

      Audio later….

      All pretty boring, but I was impressed by Farrar referencing a made- for- tv drama as grist to his political analysis.

      As if verisimilitude was not part of his vocabulary.

      • greywarshark 13.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 9:52 am

        Oooh Rosemary – those big words, verisi….?

        And TV is pretty well real isn’t it?
        Sometimes it is so close to the truth that it has been banned. And that is a true story about a series at one time called Mogal that that had an episode about a group blowing up an oil depot. Then it happened in real life the week before it was to be screened. So it was too sensitive material to put on in public, like inciting or sensationalising it further.

        That’s an example of how plastic our brains are, how protean and easily influenced – truth being stranger than fiction? Or vice versa. Which is which? What do we believe today folks, listen in to your breakfast jock to be told your line of thinking. It saves time and money. Clean your mind out of uncomfortable, painful or dirty thoughts here at your friendly brainwashing laundrette.

    • OnceWasTim 13.2
      16 October 2018 at 9:42 am

      Please! Someone put that guy in a pair of leather breaches and some suspender braces and prop him up on an alp.
      He could rival https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQhqikWnQCU and go on to lead the European far right

    • Carolyn_Nth 14.1
      16 October 2018 at 9:44 am

      The overall sum doesn’t tell us much. Need to know more about the differences between high and low paid staff.

      • SaveNZ 14.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 9:49 am

        Half the rates seems to be going on wages, rather than services like libraries and rubbish collection that they are constantly trying to cut costs on, so that is a worry… also I suspect it is not going to increase those at the bottoms wages but more on those at the top at executive level and there is an open cheque book to consultants such as the 1 million dollar bill for Phil Goffs private report into the Stadium that nobody wants, that was so ‘secret’ that he had parts of it redacted from his own councillors. Transparency, what a joke!

        • greywarshark 14.1.1.1
          16 October 2018 at 10:02 am

          Makes me think of Joni Mitchell (writer and singer) of The Big Yellow Taxi….

          They paved paradise
          Put up a parking lot
          With a pink hotel, a boutique
          And a swinging hot SPOT

          Don’t it always seem to go
          That you don’t know what you’ve got ’til it’s gone?
          They paved paradise
          Put up a parking lot

          They took all the trees
          And put them in a tree museum
          Then they charged the people
          A dollar and a half just to see ’em

          I always thought it was ‘The Pay Paradise’, which is satirical in itself. Perhaps the Council could monetise the wages bill and profit from it, assembling $1 billion of notes behind a bullet proof clear screen and charge the ratepayers ‘a dollar and a half just to see ’em’. It would be like a New World pyramid. And with cash getting used less it would remind people just what it looks like.

      • Sacha 14.1.2
        16 October 2018 at 10:26 am

        The sum only tells us about a cost, not what we buy with it. That’s what neoliberalism does, including one-eyed cheerleaders like the Taxdodgers Onion.

        • SaveNZ 14.1.2.1
          16 October 2018 at 10:47 am

          We do know what they are spending the rates on, America’s cup, ports of Auckland cruise ship. lawyers, developers, more lawyers to clean up all the messes when they screw up.

          And 50% is just on Auckland Transport which in spite of their alarming amount of spin doctors nobody in Auckland is happy with their disgusting and poor service, but still more handouts given to them and new public taxes assigned to them, rather than independent investigations on how they are operating.

    • SaveNZ 14.2
      16 October 2018 at 9:44 am

      I hear the Ports of Auckland wages bills are on the rise. Maybe they need a lot more union representative there for a start with the amount of accidents they seem to have, but a better bet is more pork barreling at the top, more lawyers to steal the harbour and consultants for the polluting cruise ships and how to spin the pollution they bring to the residents.

  15. esoteric pineapples 15
    16 October 2018 at 10:29 am

    While there has been much talk about the New Zealand government surplus, we seem to be deeper in debt as a country than ever before:

    New Zealand currently owes NZ$126 billion

    Interest Payments Per Year
    NZ$5,935,331,759

    Interest Payments Per Second
    NZ$188

    National Debt Per Citizen
    NZ$26,737

    Debt as % of GDP
    43.43%

    https://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/newzealand

    • One Two 15.1
      16 October 2018 at 10:51 am

      Unlikely to see the mainstream reference how the debt is essentially unpayable…interest payments increasing perpetually…better hope interest rates stay historically low and the debt rating holds up…

      Time to call in Arthur Anderson…

      • SaveNZ 15.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 10:57 am

        I hear the shares in Enron are still good:)

      • greywarshark 15.1.2
        16 October 2018 at 2:13 pm

        Interest payments per second – NZ$188

        The money advertisements often talk about something being affordable at less than the cost of a cup of coffee per day. How many cups@ $4 by NZs to just pay the interest per day?

    • SaveNZ 15.2
      16 October 2018 at 10:51 am

      People are getting poorer too including the middle classes, but the accountants say it’s all good, so whose to worry?

      If they did an investigation, I’d say that people born in NZ will be the poorest of them all, we are having a wealth transfer which is hiding how much worse off, many people born in NZ are compared to 30 years ago.

      Its hidden because people coming to NZ from around the world already have the money on them and can use it to increase their prospects, while those born here are saddled with low wages, high costs and have to fight it out with all the competition which is not a fair fight when people already have more money and less debt (aka no student loans) and more ability to leave NZ and work elsewhere while still maintaining a satellite existence here.

      We already have people who can shell out $30k for a fake job – they don’ need to work or earn money from the outset.

      It’s skewing everything from bad labour to poor wages to increasing the social costs, and encouraging scammers here, but the government does nothing to stop the problem. The opposite, taking resources away from it.

    • Tricledrown 15.3
      17 October 2018 at 12:16 am

      We have one of the lowest National debts of any country.
      Countries use debt to make money.
      The cost of servicing debt at $5billion is very little compared to the amount of economic activity it creates.
      Focusing on National debt is like barking at cars and shows how little people who do lack economic’.

      • Draco T Bastard 15.3.1
        17 October 2018 at 1:18 am

        The cost of servicing debt at $5billion is very little compared to the amount of economic activity it creates.

        1. The amount of ‘economic activity’ that it produces is negative.
        2. A country which can create its own currency never needs to borrow and thus should never be paying interest.
        3. Private debt is actually the problem which is why, after the GFC, it was national printing of money that was used to bail out failed banks and rich people.

        • Tricledrown 15.3.1.1
          17 October 2018 at 6:55 am

          DTB countries who would rely on printed money would not be able to trade as they would be cut out of trade.
          The big trading blocks can call the tune.
          NZ is just a small back office who have to do as they are told.
          Utopic ideas don’t work in the real world as the big boys get to call the shots.
          We would be treated like Cuba.

          • Tricledrown 15.3.1.1.1
            17 October 2018 at 7:26 am

            By the way DTB the Social Credit Party has tanked and most of their 20 “odd” members have moved to NZ first.
            I know many of them, they are anti green more than money printers, Fringe politicians socially awkward and naive.
            Read political science 101 research on Fringe politics.
            If you want to change people’s voting the further your ideas are from the Center the less support you get.
            Don Brash ACT, libitarians, the Socialist Party, Social Credit all Fringe parties with miniscule support.
            It’s better to get small change than trying to change the whole system.
            Futile Utopism is a wasted vote and a waste of time.

            • Draco T Bastard 15.3.1.1.1.1
              17 October 2018 at 11:54 am

              By the way DTB the Social Credit Party has tanked and most of their 20 “odd” members have moved to NZ first.

              Never voted for SC and their ideas on money aren’t the best.

              I know many of them, they are anti green more than money printers, Fringe politicians socially awkward and naive.

              What’s that got to do with the price of fish?

              Read political science 101 research on Fringe politics.

              You do know that they got more than 20% of the vote at one point right? And that it was only the workings of FPP that kept them out of government?

              It’s better to get small change than trying to change the whole system.

              The whole system needs to be changed and incrementalism isn’t working. In fact, IMO, it’s making things worse as it prevents the necessary changes going through.

          • Draco T Bastard 15.3.1.1.2
            17 October 2018 at 11:43 am

            DTB countries who would rely on printed money would not be able to trade as they would be cut out of trade.

            So?

            Not being able to trade isn’t a death sentence. It just means that such a country would have to actually develop it’s economy and society.

            The big trading blocks can call the tune.

            Only if the Rest of the World allows them to.

            NZ is just a small back office who have to do as they are told.

            No, we’re actually an independent country.

            Utopic ideas don’t work in the real world as the big boys get to call the shots.

            Our present system is a utopic ideal and it’s not working.

            We would be treated like Cuba.

            That’s because most of the countries of the world are frightened of the USA and they’re not actually doing too bad. Think about that for a second – USA’s sanctions on Cuba only actually apply to the USA. It was never a global rule and yet most of the world ran with those sanctions anyway.

  16. marty mars 16
    16 October 2018 at 11:10 am

    Jami-lee going full carnage in stand up.

  17. Kay 17
    16 October 2018 at 1:28 pm

    I must say, that after 9 years of being constantly under attack from this mob I am thoroughly enjoying today. Each new RNZ breaking news notification brings yet another grin 🙂

  18. greywarshark 18
    16 October 2018 at 2:09 pm

    Just a break from the artificial side of what passes for life amongst humans,

    All the lessons of history in four sentences:
    Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad with power.
    The mills of God grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly small.
    The bee fertilizes the flower it robs.
    When it is dark enough, you can see the stars.

    Charles A. Beard Biography Author Profession: Historian Nationality: American Born: November 27, 1874 Died: September 1, 1948
    Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/charles_a_beard_276638?src=t_bee

    • greywarshark 18.1
      16 October 2018 at 3:58 pm

      I should add that the flower and bee perform a co-ordinated dance, the flower has developed to encourage the bee’s visit – so it isn’t robbing, it’s a giving and taking – pollen offered in exchange for pollenisation and renewal of life.

  19. Poission 19
    16 October 2018 at 2:43 pm

    In other news.

    10. DAVID SEYMOUR to the Minister of Energy and Resources: What effect, if any, will Genesis Energy’s plans to import coal due to a shortage of gas have on carbon emissions?

    12. JONATHAN YOUNG to the Minister of Energy and Resources: Has she seen reports that the wholesale price of electricity reached a peak of $192/MWh on 6 October because of low hydro levels and the continued outage of the Pohokura gas field?

    Wholesale prices >$300

    https://www.electricityinfo.co.nz/

  20. joe90 20
    16 October 2018 at 2:58 pm

    The amoral, shameless, win at all costs right.

    The USPS only gives Tribal residents PO boxes. Only residents with street addresses can vote. The Supreme Court just cut off voting rights to Native Americans in ND. https://t.co/DafJRisfgk— G-Wiz (@gwheele1) October 9, 2018

    I literally burst into tears at this. Do you KNOW how many Native Americans have PO Boxes across the US?? Don't kid yourself. It won't stay in ND. We were the last allowed to vote & now the 1st to lose it. Hear this: THEY FOUND A WAY TO TAKE AWAY THE VOTE. #SCOTUS Who is next? https://t.co/Cj0TNAd210— DeeTenorio (@DeeTenorio) October 10, 2018

    https://twitter.com/DeeTenorio/status/1050018717818482689

    • marty mars 20.1
      16 October 2018 at 4:10 pm

      Yep thanks Joe. Fighting for justice and equality everywhere.

    • yesherawshark 20.2
      16 October 2018 at 4:50 pm

      Joe90 …

      This is huge stakes .. ND is the seat of Dem Senator Heidi Heitkamp .. and it is widely believed that with her seat goes control of the Senate to either D or R.

      According to Rachel Maddow on msnbc tonight US time, the tribes seem to have found a go round … providing new ID cards with addresses to everyone .. complex and difficult, and may even occur at the places of voting. But the chairman of the united tribes ( sorry don’t have name) said it will cause an uptick in voting as the anger rouses intention to vote ! (Under tribal treaty they can create streets and name them at will, which they are now being forced to do.)

      The gross criminality of the repubs is that there is a system in place with the fire dept to get a 911 address in case of emergencies .. but the electoral office blocked that as a group application, insisting each person should apply as an individual, with 22 days to go.

      NB .. This link is free access to live MSNBC. CNN, AlJazeera, BBC .. all of them ! Rachel Maddow is superlative in her analysis and perspicacity .. plays at 2 pm NZ and then later again in our evening time .. I think at 5pm nz, but not sure 🙂 )

      http://www.livenewson.com/american/msnbc.html

  21. adam 21
    16 October 2018 at 3:27 pm

    A clear explanation of why the market is the enemy of democracy. In the first 15.00 minutes – after a very funny story to begin with. After that till the end a discussion on Wars.

  22. Exkiwiforces 22
    16 October 2018 at 4:23 pm

    Here is the next instalment of the Wentworth Races as they now head down the home straight for the last time.

    Over the 24hrs, Labour is faded away and is a few lengths behind the leading pack in 3rd place with no hope at winning. While the leading pack are battling it out between the Sharma and Phelps with Phelps out by half a length in 1st. This horse race is slowly becoming a mud race as I predicted on Sunday as the Libs are now shit scared at losing are starting to throw mud, flour bombs, rotten food etc at Phelps at a hope of nobbling her before she crossers the line on Saturday.

    As the Liberal Candidate is Jew and the seat of Wentworth is 12% Jewish. The Libs are trying to link the independent Kerryn Phelps as supporter of the BDS against the Jewish State as her Campaign manger and spokesman Darren Barnett is contracted for the AMU which is a pound supporter of the BDS of the Jewish State. Meanwhile, a hoax email has been distributed to university students purporting to say that Dr Phelps has pulled out of the race.

    “Sorry for this late notice. Kerry’s Phelps no longer runs for Wentworth by- election in Sydney and can you please direct your vote to Dave Sharma instead? It is very urgent; please let your friends know too, as the voting card has been printed already, you will still see her name but she has already quit.”

    The response from the Lib’s over this fake email has been very quiet 🤫. Funny that and I’m wondering if old Sharma has called on a few favs from the Jewish community 😉 😉 😉.

    • greywarshark 22.1
      16 October 2018 at 4:33 pm

      OMG. What next? Someone should be taking a doco of this, and then with a few name changes it can be a tv reality series in another year when everyone has forgotten what happened.

      • Exkiwiforces 22.1.1
        16 October 2018 at 4:57 pm

        Yeah, you right there. Apparently the Libs are so shit sacred at losing just about every man and his dog from cabinet and from the Jewish wing of the Liberal Party have the hit streets of the Wentworth electorate, so much so as one cafe owner down on Rose Bay was saying “I’ve never been so busy atm and you would think their life depends on the outcome of this by- election”.

        Also I forgot to add this as well ScoMo is looking at moving the Australian embassy in Israel atm similar to what old Trump. Mmmm starting wonder if the Libs own polling has got them losing the Wentworth by-election atm as this has come out of the blue?

  23. greywarshark 23
    16 October 2018 at 4:41 pm

    If there’s something you enjoy, you can be certain that,
    It’s illegal, it’s unhealthy (or immoral), or it makes you fat.

    Now this:
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018667012/live-streamers-warned-of-their-carbon-footprint
    internet media
    Live streamers warned of their carbon footprint
    From Nine To Noon, 9:31 am today

    A computing and communications academic warns that livestreaming music, films and information via the Internet is harming the environment.

    A senior lecturer at Lancaster University, Dr Mike Hazas, said it was leading to increased carbon emissions, and therefore adding to challenges around climate change.
    He said standard household appliances and lighting used about 15 per cent of domestic electricity demand – although air conditioning use was on the rise in some places.
    But consumer electronics such as Smart televisions took up around 35 per cent of electricity demand.
    Listen to Dr Mike Hazas speak to Lynn Freeman duration 10′ :46″

  24. eco maori 24
    17 October 2018 at 8:27 am

    Kia ora Newshub The Salvation Army is my favorite charity and I do tau toko thee idea of low cost loans for the poor tangata to buy houses I say in the regions our government need to use all the tools it has to calm te Tsunami of homeless people.
    I do not agree on the idea of other country’s paying for and building OUR assets we can afford to pay for this our selves and keep all the capital gains. In my view country’s build/buy
    Is just another form of selling the futures silverware no intelligent KIWI does that.
    I got a sore face over the Ross bridges affairs as we will carry on our path to a green energy carbon neutral future for our offspring with not chance of the money first national rising out of there ashes and stuffing it up Tova.
    With the union striking phenomenon its history repeating its self same thing happened when Clark first won parliament enough said.
    Dabo Australia it will be a place I would visit being pro natives and farmers.
    That’s a mean drought our Aussie cousin’s are going through at the minute and the pollies want to burn more coal figure that one out.
    Ka kite ano

  25. eco maori 25
    17 October 2018 at 8:49 am

    Mark Sainsbury Eco agrees with you political donations should be banned or over a set amount we get a written statement of who made the donation and what laws they are pushing to change that’s democracy open and transparent if information is been hidden its not democracy as the democratic theory is everyone is include in the voting processes equally at the minute the wealthy have the biggest say .Ka kite ano

  26. eco maori 26
    17 October 2018 at 11:14 am

    Some Eco Maori Music

  27. eco maori 27
    17 October 2018 at 12:08 pm

    I totally support this view on the WORLD’S reality we have been lead conned to believe that working together is wrong why we have done this since the start of human kind to get ahead and survive the most successful creatures are ant’s they work collectivelyfor millions of years .
    Governments are collectives it has to be set whats good for the many comes first and people having BILLIONS IN WEALTH IS NOT GOOD FOR THE MANY that only serves a very few.
    Well It’s harder for the super wealthy to pull the wool over a collectives EYE’S .
    Its harder to control a collectives lives and rip us off and lie about all the atrocities that they are serving the %099.99 of people we need to work collectively and vote out these IDIOTS that are human caused climate change deniers OUT of power .
    They are putting the existence of OUR future children lives in GREAT danger all because of GREED for POWER and MONEY .
    Lady’s natives minority all cultures we all need to join force’s and vote these fools out of POWER the Whole World over KIA KAHA ka kite and

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/true-north/2017/jul/17/neoliberalism-has-conned-us-into-fighting-climate-change-as-individuals

  28. eco maori 28
    17 October 2018 at 1:30 pm

    This gives Eco Maori hope that my grandchildren will have a happy bright future .
    With Bill Gates and Ban Ki moon pushing for the private sector to invest more in the Worlds green economy .
    Eco hold no beef with all business people my beef is with the ones that are pushing carbon lie’s the ones that are causing humanitarian crises around the world I DON’T MIND people making money that’s the way of the World at the minute.
    I could capitalize on my Influence I have figured out ways I could make money from this phenomenon but I chose to protect my Influence by not going down that road .
    I would prefer to use Eco Maori’s influence to protect ALL OUR GRANDCHILDREN’S future and not just my small life style KIA KAHA ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/16/leaders-move-past-trump-to-protect-world-from-climate-change

  29. eco maori 29
    17 October 2018 at 1:39 pm

    A link for my post above

  30. eco maori 30
    17 October 2018 at 5:30 pm

    The reality is that the Saudis have found trumps weak spot his hip pocket keep that full and trump will let you do anything .
    I seen it with the Mexico Canada trade agreement Mexico does not mind fulling trumps hip pocket and Trudeau refused to bribe trump that was quite clear for me to see.
    What gives me a sore face is he has not stopped his political rallies he has keep them rolling out WHY because he knows his support has dropped drastically why else would one keep rallying . He is spending money interfering in the polls as they don’t line up with the Democrats they have received 3x the donations as the go oil party.
    I see trump interfareing with the media all over the World suppressing the truth about climate change and now he is shit stiring with China .
    trump is doing everything that will cause OUR WORLDS environment to BURN the fool .
    Enough said I mite start swearing Ka kite ano P.S Amercian voters don’t let the bull —-in the media dishearten your efforts get out there and rally the voters and vote these fools out link is below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/16/khashoggi-saudi-arabia-bin-salman-trump

  32. eco maori 32
    17 October 2018 at 5:47 pm

    Kia ora Te Kaea Its good that more tracks have been closed to save Tane mahuta mokopunas .
    Winston has a sore face over the national circus they tryed to low blow him x2 no effect.
    Its good to see the young maori wahine taking a strong interest in politics and the issues of the local Maori community this is how we will make the systems better for all .
    I say Ngati Porou & Ngapuhi have the worst bad stat’s of all IWI unemployment sickness etc Ka kite ano P.S my moko just went home that frees up my time

  33. eco maori 33
    17 October 2018 at 6:41 pm

    Kia ora Newshub I agree with Winston & Jones there has to be some control of the mud slinging .
    Waitomo fuels has good fuel to thats the way when we were in Karori the fuel was high in wellington then the fuel company’s price gouging that’s what I don’t like is % 15 to 18 profits % 6 to 8 is ok.
    That’s correct we do not want to have 2nd classes citizens just to suit Australian pollies EGO’s. They created the Nauru mess they can do thing correctly & humanly to clean it up .
    There you go the New Zealand defence force was there helping the poor people on Indonesia town Palu ka pai were are the other world leading nations they need help.
    Kate Bradley Cooper & Lady Gaga move looks awesome I will take the wife to watch that one. Ka kite ano

  34. eco maori 34
    17 October 2018 at 7:22 pm

    Kia ora The Crowd Goes Wild James & Mulls it will be a good game of League this weekend the Tongan fans are proud of there team and will let everyone know .
    All the best for the Silver ferns in there next game .
    Our man in the NBA comp Star is shining bright ka pai .
    Rugby is one off Aotearoa big export’s players coaches and many more
    Its cool so long as the come home to retire .
    Brad shields I hope he has a good run in Britain ka pai.
    Ka kite ano P.S can I come to your shout Rick. lol I will be to busy with the whano cool competition the high ball catch $2500 for the winner and $2500 donated to youth sports Ana and Storm

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