Open Mike 17/08/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 17th, 2017 - 157 comments
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157 comments on “Open Mike 17/08/2017 ”

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  1. swordfish 1
    17 August 2017 at 6:19 am

    National assiduously pursuing the Chinese and Indian vote …

    Chinese community said to be tilting heavily towards the Right (Poll of Chinese NZers before Last Election: Nat 65%, Lab “less than 20%”, NZF 5%).

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/15-08-2017/bill-english-has-been-to-my-office-twice-already-how-national-secure-the-chinese-vote/

    Traditionally Labour-supporting Indian community still up for grabs but – purportedly feeling a little neglected by Labour since the Clark/Goff years & targeted by National’s latest law & order policy – leaning slightly Nat.

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/10-08-2017/the-indian-community-is-leaning-towards-national-but-its-in-flux/

    At least, that’s according to the Editors of the respective communities’ newspapers.

    Backed up, though, by Dicky Harman at Politik: “National’s law and order policy announced yesterday is aimed very directly at the Indian vote.

    And last night it was winning endorsement from Indian media and community leaders”

    Something Labour might want to think about.

    • Ad 1.1
      17 August 2017 at 7:52 am

      Also very carefully targeting the Philippino community.

      The dairy owner attacks throughout Auckland have also been very important for the Indian subcontinent vote.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.1
        17 August 2017 at 8:09 am

        So why they would reward the party that creates more crime and violence is beyond me. Unless people were helping them reinforce the “get tough” narrative as though it is anything other than a vicious lie, that is.

        • Psycho Milt 1.1.1.1
          17 August 2017 at 8:52 am

          Very few people who’ve just been beaten and robbed think “I blame the government for creating the social conditions in which this kind of crime flourishes.”

          • garibaldi 1.1.1.1.1
            17 August 2017 at 8:56 am

            One group the Natz won’t have to pander to is the Sth. Africans.

          • Tracey 1.1.1.1.2
            17 August 2017 at 4:22 pm

            Nor do they think maybe I should stop selling cigarettes. Short of a security guard outside all dairies…

    • One Anonymous Bloke 1.2
      17 August 2017 at 8:11 am

      Labour might want to think about.

      They could point out the direct connections between National Party dogma and violent crime, for example.

      Nah, the Greens have more solid ground to make that criticism from.

    • AB 1.3
      17 August 2017 at 11:04 am

      And frankly, that’s another reason why National won’t bring immigration back to sustainable levels. This is going to sound racist to some, but I do have concerns about large numbers of immigrants from societies with no functioning social welfare systems and no culture of egalitarianism.

  2. swordfish 2
    17 August 2017 at 6:24 am

    Matthew Hooton‏ – Twitter a couple of days ago @MatthewHootonNZ

    Have been told @stevenljoyce did not present any internal polling to @NZNationalParty caucus today on grounds “the data is not up-to-date”

    Sounds a little ominous for our close and much-cherished friends in Blue.

  3. Carolyn_nth 3
    17 August 2017 at 6:54 am

    Newsroom article by Auckland Uni sociologist Steve Matthewman: “Benefit fraud vs tax evasion: NZ’s hypocrisy”

    Set against the context of the rise of Ardern to and fall of Turei from leadership, the article focuses on inequalities between treatment of tax evasion and benefit fraud, but also of gender, race and class.

    Turei’s fall from grace tells us something about social values. We, the general public, get more upset about what’s ripped off from the state than what’s withheld from it. … But as Kerre McIvor recently noted, when the Government ran a ‘dob in a beneficiary’ campaign in the late 1990s the anonymous tip-off line received over 11,000 calls, while an IRD campaign to identify tradespersons working under the table received but a few hundred calls.
    …
    We are good at praising and blaming people, but not so good at finding fault in social structures, or our economic and political arrangements. Indeed, by personalising pressing issues like poverty we let the system off the hook.

    • francesca 3.1
      17 August 2017 at 1:29 pm

      30 years of market fundamentalism has eroded our collective identity as an egalitarian nation.
      Collateral damage in the form of the poor, the sick , homeless are portrayed as losers, individually unfit, bad choice makers etc.
      How else could we still see ourselves as a decent country, if not by vilifying the casualties.
      So for all those beneficiary bashers, there is too much taxation, wasted on useless eaters like beneficiaries, and the cashie tradies are seen as hardworking little battlers doing their best against a repressive government .
      Until of course someone gets ill,or loses their job
      We were seriously trained to think like this, the Listener led the charge back in the 90’s.
      Its going to take quite a movement to shift

  4. Ad 4
    17 August 2017 at 7:54 am

    I’m presuming that Nationalhas yet to bring out its really big policies.

    On the tax one, which I would expect to be huge, will people believe them enough to vote their way?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1
      17 August 2017 at 8:02 am

      I dunno. You might, I suppose 😈

      • Ad 4.1.1
        17 August 2017 at 8:29 am

        Springsteen says this kind of thing better than most:

        • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.1
          17 August 2017 at 8:31 am

          Springsteen’s music makes my skin crawl.

          • Ad 4.1.1.1.1
            17 August 2017 at 8:52 am

            I can see that is how you are measured.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.1.1.1.1
              17 August 2017 at 1:52 pm

              John Peel used to say that The Fall are “the band by which all others are judged”, Henry Rollins that we should “get down on your filthy knees and crawl to the altar that is Ween”.

              Peel’s dead, but if you want to take it up with Rollins I won’t stand in your way 🙂

    • NZJester 4.2
      17 August 2017 at 11:28 am

      Their big election policy last time was a “Tax break next election (maybe)”
      Since they got away with promising nothing as their big election policy last time, expect more of the same.

      • Jeremy 4.2.1
        17 August 2017 at 4:58 pm

        And the ‘170,000 jobs’ promised in 2008 and 2011.
        Oh, and the UFB rollout promised in 2008, 2011 and 2014

        Still waiting for both of those.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.3
      17 August 2017 at 1:46 pm

      I’m presuming that Nationalhas yet to bring out its really big policies.

      You mean the ones that have a header and TWO bullet points?

      On the tax one, which I would expect to be huge,

      That’s not big policy (It amounts to Tax Cuts!!! YAY!!!) and it’s pretty much a part of National’s DNA – they always offer them.

  5. Eco maori 5
    17 August 2017 at 8:05 am

    No let’s get this straight I am about 30 percent Maori 70 percent European.So in reality I’m a kiwi .I am proud of my Maori heritage and so should every other Maori out there raze one’s head and keep your back straight and be proud of who you are. I no my Maori Whapapa I have not learnt our language.In the 1800 Maori were one of the most advanced indigenous culture in the world Research
    It Google away .and be proud of whom you are and help your fellow Kiwis .I was 17 and asked my mom do I have a father she said O Year told me his name and said I’ll ring him I was total blown off my feet !!!! My mom stuffed a stroke about 15 months a got she still has her Witts about what’s going on. My two sister are looking after her.I just give them my advice on how to deal with the system. Write to the health ombudsmen or commissioner let the problem you are have with winz and the health system be heard .One nite she rang and said mom has not got long to live as the doctor said at the retirement /what ever it is home said. She told me that 2 week ago that she inform the staff at the rest home mom had a infected foot and no antibiotic were given to mom and the nite the doctors were telling us just to let her go .My sister rang a Ambulance
    The doctor reports said my mom oxergin level were low . And the staff at the rest home did not give her oxygen .when mom was on the ambulance they gave her oxygen a there reaction to the doctor and staff at the rest home was shocked as I was the doctor was telling my sisters not to take mom to the hospital WTF Not giving mum the antibiotic and Oxygen . I told my brothers an sisters don’t listen to that Fucken doctor and mum had a lot of years left she is at home with my sisters now

    • weka 5.1
      17 August 2017 at 11:25 am

      Sorry, still finding your comments too hard to read. Try putting a gap between paragraphs, break up the text more, and correcting the spell check where its obviously wrong.

      Are you commenting from a phone?

      • Muttonbird 5.1.1
        17 August 2017 at 11:31 am

        It’s deliberate, surely.

        • weka 5.1.1.1
          17 August 2017 at 12:20 pm

          I don’t think it’s deliberate, and while I don’t know what the reasons are exactly I have no problem with different levels of literacy here if that’s what is going on.

          • eco Maori/kiwi 5.1.1.1.1
            17 August 2017 at 8:09 pm

            There is no deliberate miss spelling going on I have some form of dyslexia also I Finished school at 13 and went to work fishing my school education
            stopped when my nan died I was 8 after that I went to school when I wanted which was not much so self taught after she died and the standard thing was coincidental some thing is going wrong with my compute taking a long time to load articles and can not access the edit ap

            • weka 5.1.1.1.1.1
              17 August 2017 at 8:31 pm

              thanks Em, I thought it was probably something like that but didn’t want to assume. I’ll keep an eye out, people shouldn’t be giving you a hard time about this.

      • Eco maori 5.1.2
        17 August 2017 at 11:41 am

        Yes I will try and get my writing up to standard weka thanks

        • Muttonbird 5.1.2.1
          17 August 2017 at 11:45 am

          Yes, I will try to get my writing up to standard weka, thanks.

          • Tony Veitch (not etc) 5.1.2.1.1
            17 August 2017 at 4:29 pm

            Here here, Muttonbird – a pet annoyance of mine too!

            • In Vino 5.1.2.1.1.1
              17 August 2017 at 5:12 pm

              “Try and’ is allowable to replace ugly repetition – eg – I need to try to find time to listen to more music. ‘Try and’ is preferable in that sentence.
              But ‘try and’ all the time sounds slangy.

              • Tony Veitch (not etc) …
                17 August 2017 at 5:46 pm

                Not so – I’m being pedantic, I know, but two verbs in close proximity only confuses – well, at least, to a grammar purist.

                But common usage uses ‘try and’ so I should get used to it – but it grates!

                • In Vino …
                  17 August 2017 at 7:37 pm

                  I taught advanced English Grammar to German students about to embark upon the translation of Commercial Correspondence. I am repeating what the advanced English Grammar book said, but no longer remember the name of that book.
                  Anyway, English has no real authority to adjudicate on such matters..
                  (The ugly repetition was of the word ‘to’. I still agree with ‘try and’ in that particular sentence and ones like it.)

            • Grant 5.1.2.1.1.2
              17 August 2017 at 7:47 pm

              That would be “Hear, Hear”. A grammar purist should know that. 🙂

        • weka 5.1.2.2
          17 August 2017 at 12:32 pm

          cheers Em.

    • Janet 5.2
      17 August 2017 at 4:35 pm

      Ditto here … very similar story re rest home turning a blind eye not once but twice. Very different outcome.. my mum died. I would like to know is this becoming common place ?

      • In Vino 5.2.1
        17 August 2017 at 5:23 pm

        I have suspicions… My mother died of heart failure quite possibly due to withdrawal of the series of pills she had to take. I have no axe to grind because she had lost her mind though dementia. While clearing her house after she had to go into care, I found documents signed by both her and my father many years before when she was still sound of mind. A big list of horrible terminal diseases, and the signed request that if either of them contracted such a disease, all medical treatment should be withdrawn. Quicker death preferred. Last on that list of diseases was Alzheimers.
        So, if they accidentally or deliberately stopped administering her heart pills I do not know. But I do know what she wanted when of sound mind.

  6. Ad 6
    17 August 2017 at 8:26 am

    Greater Auckland, fresh from getting Labour to adopt their New Network with light rail going to everywhere in Auckland, now propose a rapid rail system from Auckland to Hamilton to Tauranga, and beyond:

    https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/

    Buried deep within the proposal is that the governance entity would be an Authority with land acquiring powers and rail project delivery powers.

    That makes it as powerful as Auckland International Airport, which is basically a city-state.

    While this kind of stuff has happened before, as in Lower Hutt after World War One, I think this amount of commercial power to deliver a public good with no accountability except to a Minister is pretty undemocratic.

    I’m always up for transformative ideas, but I’ve seen too many large scale disasters done in the name of public good to readily accede to such concentrated power.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1
      17 August 2017 at 8:29 am

      a public good with no accountability except to a Minister is pretty undemocratic.

      What’s your preferred model, a CCO?

      • Ad 6.1.1
        17 August 2017 at 8:41 am

        The model for rail is: learn to walk before you propose to run.

        • Anne 6.1.1.1
          17 August 2017 at 9:17 am

          In the 1960s we had a rapid rail system to Rotorua via Hamilton. I was fresh out of Dental School and posted to Rotorua. Come 6pm Friday I hopped on the rail car and two and a bit hours later was back in Auckland. Come 6pm Sunday I hopped on a rail car and……. was back in Rotorua.

          We’ve already done it. Don’t need to learn to walk first.

          • marty mars 6.1.1.1.1
            17 August 2017 at 9:22 am

            + 1 this is a very important point – we have already done it, we are going forward to the past.

            • Craig H 6.1.1.1.1.1
              17 August 2017 at 10:11 am

              And it’s pretty common elsewhere as well – not like we have to invent anything from scratch.

          • Psycho Milt 6.1.1.1.2
            17 August 2017 at 11:29 am

            In the 1960s we had a rapid rail system to Rotorua via Hamilton.

            Given our narrow-gauge tracks, the term “rapid” tends to mean “reaches 80kph on the straights,” which would be an unusually slow train service in most countries. Bit late to switch gauges, though…

            • The decrypter 6.1.1.1.2.1
              17 August 2017 at 11:53 am

              Switch/swap gauges bit by bit. Do it gradually section by section.

              • McFlock …
                17 August 2017 at 1:34 pm

                It’s not really a “bit by bit” thing – you’d need to update all the rolling stock that will use the track, and if you’re doing the track incrementally you’d need to have either dual-guage tracks or dual-gauge stock. Not to mention ferries.

                Without that you wouldn’t be able to plonk a container onto a car in Invercargill and rail it up to picton, shunt the bugger onto a ferry, shunt it around in wellington, and then rail it up to Tauranga for embarkation of the container onto a ship. You’d have to handle the container at each gauge change, including the docks and the freight yard in Invers.

                Then there’s all the tunnels, cuts and suchlike that would need to be widened, and compulsory purchases of land to widen the strips that the trains run on.

                Big project.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  17 August 2017 at 2:05 pm

                  A very big project which probably explains why we’ve kept to the old 1067mm gauge.

                  I’m not sure which would be better. Peace-meal updating of the existing tracks to take the faster speeds or building an entirely new network.

              • exkiwiforces …
                17 August 2017 at 3:04 pm

                Queensland Rail has Diesel and Electric High Speed Tilt Trains that run on 3ft 6in gauge, but i’m not sure what’s load gauge as NZ tends to operate at lower loading gauge.

                NZ almost had a Broad gauge railway system back in the 1800’s, but the Cape gauge (3ft 6in) was adopted instead because of NZ topography. There is really nothing wrong with the 3ft 6in gauge its loading gauge (the weight of the Trains) needs to higher, but due to a lack of investment/ maintenance over the years has lead to a lower loading gauge.

                FYI, the Vulcan and later the Fiat Railcars on the Canterbury Plains use to 100kph+, the odd Ka and Kb’s were clock at some very high speeds as well. So NZ could run high speed trains if it wasn’t for the lack of investment and maintenance.

          • Ad 6.1.1.1.3
            17 August 2017 at 12:03 pm

            Ah if only.

            We don’t manufacture rail stuff here.
            We have extremely weak demand for passenger rail outside of Auckland and Wellington.
            We have very few rail design experts.
            We have a weak Kiwirail.
            We have no Ministry of Works.
            We have a much smaller and much less interventionist state.

            In many places the tracks have been torn up and the land sold.

            No regional council wants to pay for either rail OPEX or rail CAPEX in the the Waikato or Bay of Plenty. Plenty have asked.

            Nostalgia just ain’t what it used to be.

            • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.1.3.1
              17 August 2017 at 2:10 pm

              We have very few rail design experts.

              I’d be surprised if such people even existed. You’d need geological engineers, mechanical engineers, probably some traffic engineers and some software engineers.

              I probably missed some specialisations but the point is that rail engineer is probably far too broad to be a specialisation.

              We have a weak Kiwirail.
              We have no Ministry of Works.
              We have a much smaller and much less interventionist state.

              Labour, the Greens and NZFirst all seem to be keen on bringing those back.

              • Ad …
                17 August 2017 at 2:36 pm

                They definitely are.
                Their ambition will be constrained by capacity – both in the private construction sector, and in the public sector where public servants haven’t seen that kind of interventionist speed and scale that is required.

                A really good learning is being provided by Fletcher Building. Just two projects – both government-backed – have killed most of their profit, killed off their Chief Executive and many tier 2-and-3 staff, and left many important questions about their strategy and even existence as a company unanswered.

                This is our largest listed company, at risk after just two large scale projects.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  17 August 2017 at 2:49 pm

                  Their ambition will be constrained by capacity

                  The government would need to build the capacity rather than just assuming that it’s there.

                  A really good learning is being provided by Fletcher Building. Just two projects – both government-backed – have killed most of their profit,

                  So what did Fletchers do wrong?

                  The government’s easy to guess – they assumed that Fletchers had the capacity as they were the largest listed company in the country when, in fact, they didn’t.

                  • s y d …
                    17 August 2017 at 5:06 pm

                    “So what did Fletchers do wrong?”

                    The wee snippet that I have had revealed to me (by someone who should know) is that a bunch of managerial types simply plucked a whole heap of very big numbers out of their arseholes as to how much things were going to cost, and when those numbers started looking bad, dug ever deeper to drag out a few more large numbers as to the savings they could make.

                    Consequently it’s all gone bad.

                    So, what Fletchers did wrong, was to try and run a construction company with people who know nothing about construction, and very little about anything else, except how to garner some bonuses.

                    • KJT …
                      17 August 2017 at 5:11 pm

                      The problem with having bean counters in charge.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      17 August 2017 at 6:10 pm

                      No, the bean counters would actually have known how much things were going to cost or, at least, have found out.

                      It’s really not the bean counters that are the problem but the people who either BS or have Friends in High places to get their top paying jobs that are far above their Level of Incompetence.

                    • Graeme …
                      17 August 2017 at 9:46 pm

                      I’m surprised it’s taken this long, they’ve had that managerial style for 20 -30 years. And had plenty of disasters, they tried to set up a Gib Board plant in competition to and incumbent manufacturer in Chile, didn’t end well

                  • greywarshark …
                    17 August 2017 at 7:11 pm

                    Fletchers might have had the other tender prices leaked to them quietly of course, and then been able to undercut the others with their bloody dodgy everything.

                • tracey …
                  17 August 2017 at 3:33 pm

                  At risk after a decade or two of under cutting the industry to gain monopoly like conditions it has backfired. the Bully is cowed.

                • KJT …
                  17 August 2017 at 4:56 pm

                  I suspect Fletcher’s management, like most New Zealand management, have been spoilt.
                  Three decades of increasing shareholder profits by cutting wages and training, borrowing for share buybacks, cutting capital investment in plant and playing with money, rather than developing an efficient business and skilled staff.

                  Being a monopoly in New Zealand, and automatically getting Government contracts hasn’t helped.

                  Christchurch would have been better served by a bunch of Government project managers organising the small building firms to do the job.

                  Actually how Fletchers started. As one of the small firms building State houses.

              • CLEANGREEN …
                17 August 2017 at 8:20 pm

                Yep Draco
                All parties except ACT, National/Untied Future want all rail restored in NZ, so we have the will and just need the change of Government.

                The rail should now be completed through Bay of Plenty to Gisborne also as was planed in 1911 but two wars got in the way with an epidemic and a depression.

                They called the eastern rail link the “East Coast Rail” and the records are in the Hansard report from that year with the annual “ways and means” report from Coates the Public Works Minister finally emerged agin in 1939, and the Second world war stopped it again!!

                History;

                PUBLIC WORKS ACT 1911 – 1924.
                https://www.atojs.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/atojs?a=d&d=AJHR1924-I.2.2.4.1

                https://www.atojs.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/atojs?a=d&d=AJHR1924-I.2.2.4.1

                MAY BE A RECORD OF THE BUILDING OF THAT RAIL LINE HERE.

                Subject: Historic records of NZ Public Works “Ways & Means costings accounts provided by Coates Minister of public works 1939.

                Historic records of NZ Public Works “Ways & Means costings accounts provided by Coates Minister of public works 1939.

                Note; the costing account mention of work done on the “Waihi to Taneatua” line section of the “East Coast line” then then to as well as the “Napier Gisborne line”?

                https://atojs.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/atojs?a=d&d=AJHR1911-I.2.3.2.1

            • tracey 6.1.1.1.3.2
              17 August 2017 at 3:31 pm

              I think you underestimate the number of Aucklanders being forced further south of the Bombay hills if they want houses. Pokeno is the latest. With rail people could genuinely live in hamilton and Tauranga, work on a train and commute to Auckland.

              That part of the motorway around Drury and over the water is a nightmare. nats just announced another 1000 home sin drury that bottleneck will continue. Business says they are losing productivity cos of it.

              Unlike Bootcamps this hark back to the olden days may have some merit

              • s y d …
                17 August 2017 at 5:14 pm

                Yeah but why Tracey. Why live in Tauranga and then try and work in Auckland?
                Personally I agree with Ad – this rail scheme is nostalgia at it’s worst. Tauranga and Rotorua and Hamilton all had a passenger rail system 20 years ago and it failed. Too slow, too inconvenient, initially exciting, but eventually frustrating.
                Cars are cheap, covenient and too easy.

                • Exkiwiforces …
                  17 August 2017 at 5:24 pm

                  If maintenance had been maintain and new investment into new rolling stock by it new owners when National fogged it off, but it was instead of the asset strip by Fay &Co and NZ Railways might have in a far better state now than its atm.

                • bwaghorn …
                  17 August 2017 at 5:52 pm

                  there was a lot less people in those areas 20 years ago , population increase will make rail cars work again

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  17 August 2017 at 8:17 pm

                  Cars are cheap

                  No they’re not. They cost far more than public transport in money, resources and personal time.

                  And inter-city travel by train is far cheaper than air travel as well.

          • francesca 6.1.1.1.4
            17 August 2017 at 1:33 pm

            Does anyone ever get the feeling that we’re all rather old here?
            I’m in my 60,s and I often get the hint that a lot of others are in that bracket
            I guess we remember the time that a welfare state was something to be proud of and emulated

            • riffer 6.1.1.1.4.1
              17 August 2017 at 2:34 pm

              There’s a few of us young ‘uns here francesca.

              I’m only 50, which makes me a Gen X’er.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                17 August 2017 at 2:50 pm

                I’d like to see some people in their twenties here.

              • tracey …
                17 August 2017 at 3:34 pm

                I wasn’t aware that people born in the 60’s were Gen Xers???

                • Psycho Milt …
                  17 August 2017 at 4:10 pm

                  I recall being grumpy back around 1990 that Gen X supposedly was people born from 1965 on, which made me (1962) a Boomer. Fortunately I just checked and the first item on Google says 1961 – 1981, so now feeling totally vindicated #notaboomer.

                  Also, nice to see comments from you again.

                  • tracey …
                    17 August 2017 at 4:27 pm

                    Thanks.

                    I don’t remember Gen X even being coined til the 90’s??? Maybe my memory is failing.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      17 August 2017 at 6:48 pm

                      I remembered when it was – I was working at Unity Books in Wellington in 1992 and we were selling Coupland’s book, so it was a topic of conversation at the time.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  17 August 2017 at 4:16 pm

                  I was born in 68 which makes me a GenX.

                  Thing is, it was my parents generation that gave birth to the Boomers. In fact, all of my eight siblings are Boomers.

              • Anne …
                17 August 2017 at 3:57 pm

                You’re just a babe riffer. 😀

            • mary_a 6.1.1.1.4.2
              17 August 2017 at 3:12 pm

              @ francesca (6.1.1.1.4) … Yes you are right. There are a lot of us in that “older” bracket … post WWII baby boomers.

              I’m 71 and remember the egalitarian social structure we had during the ’50s, ’60s, ’70s and into the mid 1980s. Although the system might not have been perfect, it did however work very well, solid education, available public health, other public services etc, all provided well for Kiwis.

              Also I point out, during those times, children and their well being were valued as being an essential part of a caring and progressive nation. Same with the elderly, while those in between, were respected and appreciated for the work effort they put in, to keep a fair and decent society ticking over to most NZers advantage. NZ’s social system led the world. We were an advanced country in that regard.

              The return of the old Ministry of Works and other state service systems wouldn’t be such a bad thing.

              • Anne …
                17 August 2017 at 4:07 pm

                And don’t forget the numerous small shopping centres. Butcher (fresh meat) baker (fresh bread) Greengrocers (fresh fruit and veges) and Four Square store plus extras like a Stationers etc. all within walking distance. Milk delivered daily to each house. Plenty of public transport where men and boys always gave up their seats for women. Crime was almost non existent so young people could safely go out on their own at night.

                No, it wasn’t all beer and skittles but it sure was better than exists today.

                • exkiwiforces …
                  17 August 2017 at 4:18 pm

                  To bloody right Anne, it was fun growing up in the 70′ and to the mid 80’s with its egalitarian, a caring and progressive nation that was NZ.

                • mary_a …
                  17 August 2017 at 6:31 pm

                  Absolutely I remember it Anne. We used to go out and leave a window or two or three open, with no fear of being our homes being broken in to. A good decent caring and respectful society then.

                  • Anne …
                    17 August 2017 at 6:34 pm

                    The only time my parents locked their back door was when we went away on summer holidays.

              • OncewasTim …
                17 August 2017 at 4:14 pm

                You’d probably also remember all that tory shit about MoW workers leaning on shovels most of the time.
                Yet today, none of the same nonsense if we see Fulton Hogan indulging in the same.

                Whats better – state monopolies or private monopoly/duopolies – where ticket clippers reign supreme and profits go offshore rather then bek in2 the NuZull konumy?

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  17 August 2017 at 4:24 pm

                  You’d probably also remember all that tory shit about MoW workers leaning on shovels most of the time.

                  I realised how that myth came about a few years ago. It’s simple really.

                  In the mornings, when the nine-to-fivers are going to work they see one person working on the side of the road. Same happens when they’re on the way home.

                  What they fail to realise is that at the beginning of the day and at the end there’s actually only enough work to support one person as they open and close the job. All those people will be working during the day but the nine-to-fivers don’t see that because they’re all at work.

                  And they don’t seem to realise that those people at work in the morning got there before they left for work and often leave after they get home.

                  They’re seeing a part and assuming that’s all. A great attack paradigm for the RWNJs to start dismantling our society for their own greed.

                  • tracey …
                    17 August 2017 at 4:29 pm

                    And people on a day off drive past at lunch time or morning tea…

                    I recently moved to Christchurch and am stunned at how many drivers here ignore speed limits, especially in areas where work is being undertaken. Areas with 30 and workers and people zoom through over 50…. Do not get me started on the 60 limits.

                    Mainly people in trade vehicles but people with kids too. must be bloody scary being a roadside worker down here.

                  • OncewasTim …
                    17 August 2017 at 8:14 pm

                    Indeed

            • exkiwiforces 6.1.1.1.4.3
              17 August 2017 at 3:41 pm

              I’m 43 working class male and I agree with Mary_a comments 6.1.1.1.4.2

            • Psycho Milt 6.1.1.1.4.4
              17 August 2017 at 4:12 pm

              Does anyone ever get the feeling that we’re all rather old here?

              My kids assure me that blogs are for old people, so you’re probably right.

        • Draco T Bastard 6.1.1.2
          17 August 2017 at 1:56 pm

          We learned to walk with rail back in the 19th century. We built some 400 steam locomotives here in the country.

          I’m pretty sure we can run.

          And our experience with a similar roading authority should indicate that this approach works quite well – unless National legislate uneconomic roads.

          • James Thrace 6.1.1.2.1
            17 August 2017 at 3:59 pm

            I’m 33 and very much a product of the rogernomic effect. At least I’m capable of research and firmly believe that far more interventionist government policies are required for such a small population.

            Leaving it to “the market” is madness.

    • Muttonbird 6.2
      17 August 2017 at 11:34 am

      List these ‘large scale disasters in the name of public good’, apparently too many to count.

      • Ad 6.2.1
        17 August 2017 at 12:10 pm

        Oh let me count them for you. – just a taster.

        1. Motonui gas-to-gasoline plant
        2. Kaitaia Kauri gum processing plant
        3. Almost all of the other Think Big projects
        3. Tiwai Point aluminmium plant
        4. Albany Town Centre
        5. Westgate Town Centre
        6. Hobsonville Superyacht cluster
        7. Christchurch rebuild
        8. Canterbury Plans Irrigation requiring authority
        … the wreckage is huge and I haven’t started.

        Doesn’t mean don’t try for scale and speed. There have been plenty of successes as well.

        But take real care or it is a political graveyard.

        • Macro 6.2.1.1
          17 August 2017 at 1:41 pm

          The Kauri gum processing plant has reopened.

        • KJT 6.2.1.2
          17 August 2017 at 2:25 pm

          Motunui is still going.
          The refinery made more profit for the oil companies in three years, than they paid for it.
          Kaimai road and rail project revitilised the whole BOP. Paid for itself many times over.
          Private shareholders are making millions out of the public investment in power generation and transmission. As they are from Maui gas.
          National must think Tiwai point is a success. The amount of money they are throwing at it. and the National grid.
          Auckland rail services are more utilised every year.
          Hydro dams are still producing cheap, low carbon energy.

          Notice the failures, like the Auckland super city, were right wing ideological projects.Or sold off cheaply by privatisation nutters so that we, the original investors, lost the profits.
          Or proof that “the party of business” cannot run a business. E.G. Solid Energy.

          • Ad 6.2.1.2.1
            17 August 2017 at 2:38 pm

            Agree with some of that.

            Point is, with such an unpredictable mix of government successes and failures, is this scale of intervention what we want our taxes to go towards, when there are plenty more pressing problems that citizens need urgent attention towards.

            I’m thinking teachers, Police, nurses, and surgeons.

            • KJT 6.2.1.2.1.1
              17 August 2017 at 2:50 pm

              The fact is that we need Government investment in the future.

              New Zealand suffers from lack of investment because the private sector, on the whole, only invests in “sure things”, like buying existing public utilities, corner shops, and land.
              There is no incentive to make capital investments, in productivity, when you can make the same money by reducing wages and conditions.
              The tax cut to the wealthy, which was supposed to result in more investment, has instead simply got them bidding to push up existing asset prices. A ponzi scheme which now relies on unlimited immigration, and constant rise in financial markets, to continue.

              Obviously unsustainable.

              Only Governments can afford the long term view.

              Our dairy industry, is a prime example of success, pushed by years of Government investment, protection and research. One wonders how many other successful industries, we could have nurtured, with the same level of support.
              The US computer industry grew on the back of public research and investment, as did the oil industry.

              It should be regarded like venture capital. Like everything, there are successes and failures.

              The dividends we lost with the fire sale privatisations would have paid for an awful lot of Doctors, Nurses and Teachers.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                17 August 2017 at 2:59 pm

                The US computer industry grew on the back of public research and investment

                It still does.

                The dividends we lost with the fire sale privatisations would have paid for an awful lot of Doctors, Nurses and Teachers.

                And still would have had FttH across the country by now without the government having to step in with more subsidies.

            • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1.2.1.2
              17 August 2017 at 2:56 pm

              We should be doing both.

              And it’s not a question of taxes but a question of resources. If we have the resources to do it then we can do it. Get all those well trained but poorly paid people at fast food eateries out doing what they actually trained to do instead.

              Yes, the fast food eateries will probably go out of business. So fucken what?

              • KJT …
                17 August 2017 at 2:59 pm

                Actually. When they raised the minimum wage, in Seattle, the eateries did better. More people could afford to eat out.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  17 August 2017 at 3:14 pm

                  It’s not a question of raising the minimum wage but hiring people away from the eateries in such numbers that they can’t find enough staff.

                  Of course, we still have plenty of unemployed/underemployed so the eateries may not go out of business and will probably get increased business. Still, wages would probably go up to some degree.

    • tracey 6.3
      17 August 2017 at 4:35 pm

      Apparently 50% of our population lives in that triangle, with projections for the future of 70%

  7. marty mars 7
    17 August 2017 at 9:18 am

    Trump the nazzi white supremist loving right wing thicko is slowly going down imo – not quick enough for some and too slow for others. All of the premonitions about trump have come true – he is sad, mad AND bad

  8. marty mars 8
    17 August 2017 at 9:44 am

    Couple of wee earthquakes SW of collingwood hmmm funny spot.

    Funny how the battle of Trafalgar commemerated arund this region with names – Nelson, Wakefield, Richmond, stoke, Collingwood and so on – no commemeraton for Māori warriors and battles.

    • greywarshark 8.1
      17 August 2017 at 10:15 am

      marty mars
      Looking at geonet earthquakes list – quite a lot of 2’s in central coast on eastern side. Then Kaikoura area from day ago – 2.5, 3.0, 3.6 (17 hrs), to recent Collingwood 4.3 then 6 minute later 3.3 (1 hour ago) and both shallow 5-6 kms.
      Bit of disquiet in my mind. Where does the fault go that might link Collingwood to the Kaikoura-Seddon one? Can’t find on geonet at moment.

      Duck won’t you – don’t want any bad news about you!

      • exkiwiforces 8.1.1
        17 August 2017 at 3:10 pm

        Try this website, it’s got every fault known plus the plate boundary. I use this a lot to cross ref with my geo books in library in man cave along with some field notes from my hunting and NZ Army days

        http://quakelive.co.nz/Browse/?reference=quake.2017p615815

        • greywarshark 8.1.1.1
          17 August 2017 at 6:40 pm

          marty mars
          The link that exkiwi sent showed that the force of the quake at your place was 49 tonnes which is higher than most. But I can’t see any fault line near it
          which was what i was wondering about.

          • Exkiwiforces 8.1.1.1.1
            17 August 2017 at 10:41 pm

            It could be a unknown fault line similar to what happen at the Christchurch area or a extension of the two fault lines south of Little Wanganui. If you expand google earth you could see a possible fault trace heading Nth towards this morning quake? The Alpine Fault wasn’t fully confirm until just before the WW2, thanks to the RNZAF and the then MoW through aerial photography.

            With most of Kahurangi National park being remote and hard to access by foot there could be a new fault system yet be discovered. Its one of 5 parts of NZ I haven’t been too and I might get there one day and stumble on Hood and Moorcroft’s Ryan aircraft or the RNZAF Corsair that went missing in late 44 while I’m hunting/ fishing or doing a bit of rock kicking/ bird watching etc for shit and giggles if the hunting and fishing is poor.

            Just for a point of interest there was a number of quakes around the Dovedale/ Thrope area a couple of days ago as well.

    • Robert Guyton 8.2
      17 August 2017 at 10:19 am

      The name Kaiteretere says a lot.

    • ScottGN 8.3
      17 August 2017 at 10:54 am

      Like Hawke’s Bay where all the names refer to the Indian Mutiny; Havelock, Hastings, Clive and Napier. Lucknow Road in Havelock and Hyderabad Road in Napier.

      • greywarshark 8.3.1
        17 August 2017 at 12:54 pm

        Hey i didn’t know that. Thanks ScottGN

      • Daveosaurus 8.3.2
        17 August 2017 at 6:06 pm

        And the streets of Riverton: Lucknow, Delhi, Havelock, etc. (I’m surprised Mr. Guyton hasn’t pointed that out already).

  9. marty mars 9
    17 August 2017 at 10:58 am

    If this is a ‘normal’ week in our country two teenagers will kill themselves and twenty will be hospitalised for self harming. Of course that is the visible top of the dreadful iceberg. Many many more will be very close, will try and test, will be asking for help in every inconcievable way possible. Worth us considering – ‘hey they seem sadder. Wonder what is going on, this isn’t like them,’

    Be as interested as you can be – after all this is partly why you are working your guts out isn’t it? To create a family life for the people you love.

    Get your own shit as sorted as you can before you listen. Be in a good space, be emotionally regulated as much as possible. Listen and validate. ‘That must be tough feeling like that.’ Don’t agree disagree argue defend explain answer don’t do that. Validate that feeling what they are feeling is understandable (this is not agreeing with their content just their right to feel things) listen repeat back if you can ‘so I’m hearing you say that you’ve been feeling really bad – have I got that right? And you’ve been thinking things that are a bit scary and you are a bit scared now to tell me that stuff… wow i can realky getwhy you would be a bit scared, I’d feel the same… and thanks for trusting me enough to tell me…

    Anyway hope it helps.

    • James Thrace 9.1
      17 August 2017 at 4:01 pm

      A mid 40s male jumped off the overbridge in Porirua yesterday. Make that three suicides published reported so far this week.

  10. NZJester 10
    17 August 2017 at 11:22 am

    I see Napier have come up with a new way to get beggars off the street. (The Hartless way!)

    The maximum penalty for wilful trespass is three months’ imprisonment or a $1000 fine.

    Napier beggar convicted of trespass
    16 Aug, 2017 3:45pm
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/hawkes-bay-today/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503462&objectid=11905282

  11. Bill 11
    17 August 2017 at 12:15 pm

    The Green Party.

    Seven days ago (10th August) – …and the whole Green Party and Caucus is – more committed than ever to tackling climate change, restoring our rivers and ending poverty.

    13th August – And we must redouble our efforts to end poverty until every single one of the 200,000 children living in poverty are given the opportunities they deserve.

    Yesterday (16th August) …we can end child poverty and the devastation of homelessness, and we can be a world leader in the fight against climate change.

    Spot the row-back? It begins with poverty and ends with poverty that affects children.

    Reads to me like all us nutters and crips and childless what-nots – we’re on our own.

    Disclaimer: I’m reading the emails from the Greens through a lens I picked up at their relaunch when I got the distinct impression Shaw was bottling it/piking.

    The assault that was launched at Metiria was always going to lead a temporary dip in support before the narrative being pushed by msm and others started to be questioned. But Metiria (understandably) bailed when that assault was having maximum effect.

    And now I suspect the party is making decisions off the back of that dip while missing the fact that negative bullshit has a shelf life – that it does come to be questioned and is typically followed by unstoppable push-back…But only if you stay the course.

    And the Greens aren’t staying the course. I expect their polling to bumble along in the single digits now between now and the 23rd. They blew it.

    • weka 11.1
      17 August 2017 at 12:32 pm

      The Greens have always focussed their poverty message on children and families. I assume part of that is Māori values within the kaupapa. I have some problems with it myself, but I don’t see your snips as being indicative of much. Their welfare policy that Turei launched in the same speech as her story about being a beneficiary is basically all about families and children. It’s inclusive of more than that, so it’s an improvement on what other parties are doing, but the relief for people without children is not enough. I said as much at the time. It’s a start, but we need more, and the willingness and prioritising of changing the culture (in WINZ and NZ) is significant.

      Since Turei stepped aside as co-leader I’ve seen Shaw unequivocally state that ending poverty is still central to what the GP is about and to this election campaign. I’ve seen him do this multiple times. I’ve also seen other Green MPs do this. It’s still there as one of the 3 core platforms for the election. Whatever else is going on with the campaign design, Shaw isn’t bottling it. In fact I think he’s stepped up even more.

      I personally found the relaunch not particularly inspiring but not a disaster either. They look like they’ve gone for something that the MSM will respond better to. Time will tell if that’s a mistake or not. What I also see is a huge push on the ground to stay connected with people who experience poverty, so in that sense I still trust them. It’s still very obvious in their social media campaign too.

      Edit, as for blowing it or not, I think they have their own strategy and that it needs to be analysed within GP principles and ways of working. But again time will tell.

      • esoteric pineapples 11.1.1
        17 August 2017 at 10:15 pm

        I think the Greens have remained staunch in their policies but would like to see the “in your face” attitude maintained. But that reflects my attitude and I wouldn’t be able to promise that it was a good election strategy.

        • weka 11.1.1.1
          17 August 2017 at 10:32 pm

          I like the in your face thing too. I don’t know what’s best strategy. I tend to trust the Greens in doing what they need to. But I also see Shaw at his best when he’s pissed rather than running strategy lines. Mostly I think they need time to regroup. This poll will be another stressor they didn’t need, so I tend to supporting them currently rather than criticising.

      • KJT 11.1.2
        17 August 2017 at 10:25 pm

        It is focused on children, because even the rabid right have a bit of conscience about children. Have to start somewhere.

        I’m afraid that few care about the old guy sleeping on the park bench.

        Or the largely invisible, disabled.

        • weka 11.1.2.1
          17 August 2017 at 10:37 pm

          Yes. It’s still not ok.

          I think their welfare policy is a good start, but I also think they need to be careful not to set us up for another round of the deserving poor. Turei has said it’s not about removing all responsibilities from beneficiaries but instead it’s an issue of reciprocity. I trust her, I don’t trust future governments including Labour until Labour apologise or make other amends for Shearer’s Painter on the Roof shit.

          We are such a long way from what is good, I don’t think we have time to say start with kids and then see what happens. We need to make things right for all people to the best we can.

  12. dv 12
    17 August 2017 at 12:37 pm

    WELL WELL WELL surprise surprise

    A shadowy multinational lobby group appears to have achieved a big win lobbying the Government behind closed doors over a proposed tax clampdown.

    The United States-based Digital Economy Group said a proposal put forward in March to tighten the rules that determine whether multinationals are deemed to have a taxable presence in New Zealand were the “most extreme in the world”.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/95869102/tech-firms-won-concession-after-claiming-nz-tax-proposal-most-extreme-in-the-world

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1
      17 August 2017 at 2:11 pm

      Nice to know who this government governs us for – it obviously isn’t us.

      I think lobbying needs to be banned but foreign lobbying most definitely needs to be banned.

      • NZJester 12.1.1
        17 August 2017 at 5:50 pm

        Lobbying is a way governments have legalised bribes. Most of the lobiest tend to be people who were in power and accepted those Bribes donations or relatives and good friends of theirs.

    • KJT 12.2
      17 August 2017 at 2:28 pm

      National. Agents for a Foreign power!

  13. Stuart Munro 13
    17 August 2017 at 2:28 pm

    Time to remake The Producers: Springtime for Donald and Murica…

  14. OncewasTim 14
    17 August 2017 at 3:39 pm

    FYI interesting discussion (as opposed to converrrrsayshun) at Oz Press Club.
    Wayne Swan and Ed Balls.
    Both seem to now recognise the detrimental effects of the neo-liberal religion.
    Why doesn’t NZ still have such a press club?
    Oh, i know – because they’re so insular they piss in each others’ pockets directly

    • tracey 14.1
      17 August 2017 at 4:32 pm

      The Australians do political analysis in print and on tv so much better than we do. We have a little cabal of talking heads who “reckon” so much for us

      • adam 14.1.1
        17 August 2017 at 5:20 pm

        You mean the usual boy’s in suits telling us what to think?

        • tracey 14.1.1.1
          19 August 2017 at 3:17 pm

          Seem to be some white gals in that group too now

          • adam 14.1.1.1.1
            19 August 2017 at 3:26 pm

            Some, but they seem to follow their male overlords closely 😉

            • Tracey 14.1.1.1.1.1
              19 August 2017 at 4:21 pm

              Bennett is an example of a woman succeeding by adapting herself to an established male way of operating in politics. Woukd be nice to see more women in power bringing some of our own particular traits to gge fore

  15. greywarshark 15
    17 August 2017 at 3:40 pm

    Rivers slowing down flooding – have we used weirs in the past – now?

  16. OncewasTim 16
    17 August 2017 at 3:53 pm

    And later… the ‘right of centre’ Peter van O on the institution of marriage – about the only thing I’m in agreement with.
    Nomenclature of marriage is with the state and doesn’t preclude Catholiks or Muslims abiding by their own definitions of it.
    Gay marriage is/can therefore be completely legitimate

    • aj 16.1
      17 August 2017 at 5:27 pm

      It’s sometimes worth watching Sky 85 for a few moments of blinding illumination. Swan and Balls was fascinating and the conservative’s agruement for agreeing to gay marriage (in short, it strengthens the institution of marriage) was very strong. Not that it will influence the religious right.

  18. mosa 18
    17 August 2017 at 11:32 pm

    A welcome end to the 51st parliament and let’s hope the 52nd marks a change of government.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1708/S00346/a-busy-and-productive-year-in-the-house.htm