Open mike 18/10/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, October 18th, 2014 - 117 comments
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117 comments on “Open mike 18/10/2014 ”

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  1. b waghorn 1
    18 October 2014 at 7:37 am

    Te uruwera national park was recently returned to tuhoe (rightly so) but there was no plan around hunting permits , all existing ones have been cancelled and no new ones are to be issued till at least next year. Surely the government and tuhoe should of sorted this out as its just opened the door for the angry small minds .

    • wekarawshark 1.1
      18 October 2014 at 1:47 pm

      I’d want to know why first.

      • b waghorn 1.1.1
        18 October 2014 at 2:44 pm

        So do I . I had hoped someone here might have some insight? My cynical side thinks it’s another way for government to cut costs. My main worry is race relations , there were assurances made around access . I’m not tuhoe but love the uruwera and there’s plenty like me.

        • wekarawshark 1.1.1.1
          18 October 2014 at 5:10 pm

          Access remains.

          The Te Urewera Act requires hunters to obtain a permit to carry a rifle or take pigdogs into Te Urewera. New rifle and pigdog permits are being designed that reflects the new Te Urewera and the principles of the new Act, the safety of the hunter, visitors and the environment. At this time it is not known when that process will be completed. When done the new permit will be located on this website (except for pigdog permits, which must be obtained in person) and can be accessed from any computer. Permits previously issued by DOC are no longer valid. Fishing licences will continue to be provided by Fish and Game.

          Access into Te Urewera will continue to be freely available.

          http://www.ngaituhoe.iwi.nz/te-urewera

          The board’s chair, Tamati Kruger, said all current permits are on hold and no new ones will be approved while it considers changes to how permission is given.

          Mr Kruger said the review is about improving health and safety issues and making it a more efficient system and more equal for everyone.

          This would also benefit the environment and biodiversity of Te Urewera, he said. The new process would include more protections, such as using information from microchips in pets to track lost hunting dogs.

          Minister of Maori Development, Waiariki MP Te Ururoa Flavell, said Tuhoe has not stopped hunters accessing Te Urewera indefinitely.

          He said they are making sure there is strong protection for the forest and getting a better idea of how they it is used.

          Mr Flavell said Tuhoe is still ensuring there is some recreational access to their rohe by letting walkers in while the permits are reviewed.

          The board aims to complete the review by the end of this year.

          http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/256812/te-urewera-hunting-permits-review

          Seems reasonable to me.

          I suggest avoiding news outlets like this unless you want to study inflammatory media racism,

          http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/10604832/Tuhoe-banishes-hunters-in-Urewera

          • b waghorn 1.1.1.1.1
            18 October 2014 at 5:19 pm

            Cheers . that stuff article is doing the rounds on face book that’s were I saw some of the hate first ask questions later crowd.

    • finbar 1.2
      18 October 2014 at 9:44 pm

      No.It belongs to them now their IWI.Soon they are going to be left alone to take care of themselves as a governing body within N.Z.thats what our governing corporation has told them,you can have your treaty settllements and look after yourselves within time of our rule.Like the state of the art they have built as their learning centre,truely amazing in its designe and beauty,Maori young architect his design.Charged going onto their land,heh! we are a island within a island,and our attonomy like yours, charges for entering our state.

  2. The Lone Haranguer 2
    18 October 2014 at 8:26 am

    Seattle Socialist Party Wants $20 Per Hour Min. Wage But Offers $13

    Yep, that is correct. The Seattle socialist party wants a $20 per hour minimum wage but is only willing to spend $13 per hour for a website manager.

    The irony in this is way thick.

    Here is the link to the story. http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/17/se…bsite-manager/

    Just a gentle reminder for those promoting a higher minimum wage – make sure you are at or above it for your lower paid workers – its called having integrity

    • Draco T Bastard 2.1
      18 October 2014 at 11:33 am

      I was going to fix your link – until I realised that the site isn’t much better than WhaleOil in that it seems to be a RWNJ attack site that has lots of near naked women and guns on it.

      That said, I do agree that an organisation calling for a higher minimum wage should pay that wage.

    • finbar 2.2
      18 October 2014 at 10:06 pm

      Loner,they sound like Socialist/capitalists,sound old school Russian,communists.Why would you anyway riddicule them,are you new age or just self ignorant about socialism.

  3. The Lone Haranguer 3
    18 October 2014 at 8:31 am

    And related to that, Im trying to figure how to get all my staff up to the living wage. Given the industry Im in, we cant increase prices (we are price takers) and its not easy to increase yield (physical constraints).

    But we are working on it.

    Is there a website that breaks down the living wage by region? I would expect that the housing component in Gisborne or Masterton would be significantly less than say Hamilton or Christchurch.

    Thanks

    • wekarawshark 3.1
      18 October 2014 at 9:22 am

      what’s a price taker?

      • b waghorn 3.1.1
        18 October 2014 at 9:52 am

        Farmers and growers tend to be price takers the easy money is for the middle men

      • Draco T Bastard 3.1.2
        18 October 2014 at 11:37 am

        A price taker, in economic terms, is a business that must accept the market price as they have no ability to change it. In theory this should apply to all businesses but in reality some businesses get to set the price.

    • karol 3.2
      18 October 2014 at 9:49 am

      So basically you’re business is not profitable enough to pay fair wages?

      • wekarawshark 3.2.1
        18 October 2014 at 10:51 am

        I don’t think it’s a simple as that karol. If they’re talking about something like growing veges then the market is rigged and requires structural change well beyond the individual business. Generalisation, as many businesses can increase wages and give better contracts but are advised not to via the business model they use.

      • The Lone Haranguer 3.2.2
        18 October 2014 at 4:29 pm

        Our business has a bunch of fixed costs over which we have limited control. Our income is a mix of yield and price.

        Where the price is set by others, (Government in our case) to increase income we need to increase yield. But that is limited by various factors including land availability and the contracts that we actually have.

        Not every business is a licence to print money, but in my case,I enjoy what I do and feel that I am making a difference in the lives of a bunch of people.

        So yes Karol, as the business owner, my income is considerably lower than my staff.

        I guess you could call it a dumb business, but if I gave up, then it is likely that nobody would take it on and my 20 staff might not have jobs. They are awesome people and I wouldnt like that to happen to them.

        • karol 3.2.2.1
          18 October 2014 at 4:44 pm

          TLH, if your business makes a positive contribution to society, then surely the answer is for government to provide the context for such businesses to survive and be able to pay a living wage?

          The “free market” ethos means that some businesses that damage society can make a fortune (property investors??!) while those that make a more positive contribution overall, can struggle.

      • The Lone Haranguer 3.2.3
        18 October 2014 at 4:31 pm

        Karol, do you know if there is info available to show the living wage by area in the country?

        • karol 3.2.3.1
          18 October 2014 at 4:45 pm

          No.

        • greywarshark 3.2.3.2
          18 October 2014 at 4:53 pm

          Hi The Lone Harang 4.31
          I believe that the living wage has been averaged out working from stats from all areas. There would be a model of what the average costs of a household would be and itemised.

          The rental part of a person’s low-medium wage used to be 25% for state houses then when it was noticed to be reaching 50% it was considered excessive, and now I think that a rough guide is 1/3 of the weekly wage.
          NZ stats should have some models of costs I would think.

    • finbar 3.3
      18 October 2014 at 10:17 pm

      Living wage is not broken down by districtits minimum,what is, the cost of your wage spent to live in a home 70%.All exploitive outside state tenancy is your rent,as most minimum workers are slaved to pay,outside State tenancy

  4. dv 4
    18 October 2014 at 8:54 am

    ‘Middlemore Hospital is “totally ready” for an Ebola outbreak, Health Minister Jonathan Coleman said yesterday after visiting the hospital’s new infectious diseases biocontainment unit.

    Thank god for that

    BUT

    ‘The Ebola unit had two rooms, able to host a maximum of four people

    ‘OH as long as the outbreak was only 4 people!!! (And in Auckland)

    BUT

    ‘Dr McBride said, but added it would not be ideal to be stretched to full capacity.

    So may be 1-2 people!!!

    • wekarawshark 4.1
      18 October 2014 at 9:34 am

      Here’s the article, which is actually pretty good at explaining things.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11344409

      Middlemore is geared up to handle someone arriving in NZ with Ebola, so that they can prevent an epidemic. That article isn’t about preparations for dealing with an epidemic once it’s started (the govt isn’t going to want to talk about that because it will involve things like invoking laws that restrict freedom of movement and congregation and air travel).

      McFlock believes that if we get to the point of a potential epidemic that the MoH will be ready to tell everyone what to do (re quarantine, hygiene etc). I reckon it’s better to learn now. In the same way that we think about how to survive after a civil emergenc (water, shelter, dealing with waste), how would we manage in our homes and communities?

      • McFlock 4.1.2
        18 October 2014 at 5:08 pm

        Was watching a BBC interview a day or two back regarding the US cases, where the interviewer pointed out that post-911 hospitals were mandated for regular training against infectious diseases (for fear of an AQ “12 monkeys” style terrorist attack). So why did Dallas healthcare workers use imperfect protocols?

        The response was that so long without an actual threat possibly led to the skillsets perishing.

        So yeah, acting too early might be better than acting too late, but it might also be worse than acting at the right time.

        • wekarawshark 4.1.2.1
          18 October 2014 at 9:00 pm

          Looked more like racism to me.

          Besides, you’re still not getting it. Your point is valid about skillsets perishing, but it’s a non-sequitur to what I am commenting on.

        • Ergo Robertina 4.1.2.2
          19 October 2014 at 12:47 pm

          The WHO’s inadequate response to the Ebola outbreak shows public health authorities do get it wrong, in this case quite spectacularly.
          The leaked internal WHO paper spells it out:

          “Nearly everyone involved in the outbreak response failed to see some fairly plain writing on the wall.”
          http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2014/10/who-faulted-ebola-response-failures-20141017225940408644.html

          • McFlock 4.1.2.2.1
            19 October 2014 at 1:54 pm

            which still doesn’t explain why a continental US hospital had a couple of cases in HCW when they knew exactly what they were dealing with and had apparently been regularly trained in the procedures to deal with it.

            • Ergo Robertina 4.1.2.2.1.1
              19 October 2014 at 2:25 pm

              Outcomes in general would improve if public health authorities were less secretive and autocratic, and more transparent.

              • McFlock …
                19 October 2014 at 6:19 pm

                They’re not “secretive”, in NZ anyway. “Autocratic” is a culture they’re trying to move away from. And pretty much everything is online and subject to the OIA.

                But the fact is that for some things, access to wikipedia is not of equivalent value to a minimum of a decade’s worth of specialist training.

                • Ergo Robertina …
                  19 October 2014 at 6:48 pm

                  It’s easy to withhold stuff under the OIA by asserting the right to ‘free and frank’ discussion between officials. But I don’t wish to get bogged down in the well known vagaries of the OIA.
                  Your last point shows the fundamental flaw in your thinking: that experts are experts and should be left to get on with it, and maybe we plebs can ask some questions later.
                  The problem is public health people aren’t just applying the expertise of years of specialist training; corporate agendas, political whim, professional jealousy, and organisational paranoia skew action and influence outcomes.
                  No-one is trying to remove their power, just make them more accountable in real time, rather than only after the fact.

                  You acknowledge the autocratic culture; I think it’s that public health people are trained to see the population as their patient, and thus tend to a more jaundiced and haughty view than clinicians who encounter their practice on a case by case basis, which develops a sense of humour and sense of proportion.

                  • McFlock …
                    19 October 2014 at 8:06 pm

                    The problem is public health people aren’t just applying the expertise of years of specialist training; corporate agendas, political whim, professional jealousy, and organisational paranoia skew action and influence outcomes.

                    And the problem with your perspective is that all but the most outrageous examples of expert incompetence/misconduct due to those factors would be indistinguishable from competent expert action, from the perspective of the general public. In the same way that pilots and engineers make similarly indistinguishable judgement calls.

                    Real-time accountability by popular acclaim is fanciful for most endeavours, bloody dangerous for some.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      19 October 2014 at 8:33 pm

                      Public health actions are not analogous to those of a pilot or engineer because they are often politically charged, and intellectually contestable.
                      The main issue is disclosure of the advice/lobbying that informs decisions.
                      You claimed NZ public health officials are ‘trying to’ move away from this autocratic culture.
                      What evidence is there for this?

                    • McFlock …
                      19 October 2014 at 8:51 pm

                      The decision to overfly the Crimean war zone was intellectually contestable. And politically charged.

                      The main issue is disclosure of the advice/lobbying that informs decisions.

                      Really?
                      I would have thought that the main issue was whether the decisions saved lives.

                      You claimed NZ public health officials are ‘trying to’ move away from this autocratic culture.
                      What evidence is there for this?

                      Try calling them.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      19 October 2014 at 9:42 pm

                      ‘Try calling them.’

                      I didn’t make the claim. State evidence please for your claim that:
                      “Autocratic” is a culture they’re trying to move away from.

                      Perhaps specific instances in which there has been genuine consultation, or prompter/proactive release of information?

                      ‘Really?
                      I would have thought that the main issue was whether the decisions saved lives.’

                      In context, I used the term ‘main issue’ because you claimed ordinary people could not distinguish between competent and incompetent action. If the pressures in play are disclosed it is possible to assess the competence of action and response, and judge the veracity and motivation of public statements.

                      ‘The decision to overfly the Crimean war zone was intellectually contestable. And politically charged.’

                      Yes, in that case, but public health decisions are inherently political and intellectually contestable while the decisions of pilots and engineers are not in the normal course of events.

                    • McFlock …
                      19 October 2014 at 10:15 pm

                      I didn’t make the claim. State evidence please for your claim that:
                      “Autocratic” is a culture they’re trying to move away from.

                      Perhaps specific instances in which there has been genuine consultation, or prompter/proactive release of information?

                      Well, personally I’m finding the use of google on the MoH website much more effective than for previous pandemics of the week. Goodness knows what I’d discover if I bothered calling the officials named in those web pages.

                      If the pressures in play are disclosed it is possible to assess the competence of action and response, and judge the veracity and motivation of public statements.

                      No it is not, because any apparent “pressures in play” might not be pressures at all, or might merely be applying “pressure” in the direction that saves lives because the best option is also the one that makes them the most money.

                      Assuming, of course, that those pressures actually exist in the first place.

                      public health decisions are inherently political and intellectually contestable while the decisions of pilots and engineers are not in the normal course of events.

                      Really?
                      What about if a pilot flies through turbulence rather than around it? A clear judgement call, which might have important repercussions if something goes wrong, or merely career repercussions if the airline judges that the chosen route was a waste of fuel.
                      Not to mention the CTV building collapse. That building worked fine in the normal course of events, and to this day that I don’t thoroughly understand what the precise problem was. I sure wouldn’t have recognised it if I’d insisted construction stopped so I could have a sticky beak at everything. And if I’d insisted that everything be over-engineered to my personal satisfaction, build cost would have made the project fail, and the bloody thing still might have collapsed.

                    • Ergo Robertina …
                      19 October 2014 at 10:57 pm

                      In the case of the CTV building, a bright amateur observer might well have noted certain things were awry around design process and the credentials of some of those involved.
                      I should clarify that while the work of pilots and engineers is essentially apolitical – as I see it anyway – they operate within parameters set by the political process, for instance, building standards.

                    • McFlock …
                      19 October 2014 at 11:21 pm

                      In the case of the CTV building, a bright amateur observer might well have noted certain things were awry around design process and the credentials of some of those involved.

                      Possibly.
                      Or maybe having that level of second-guessing by “bright” and “not so bright” and “bloody stupid” amateurs on every decent-sized construction project would lead to more problems and delays than it’s worth, needlessy impune competent engineers, and still result in catastrophic failures.

  5. chris73 5
    18 October 2014 at 9:26 am

    Can I post yet?

    [lprent: 22nd. Patience…]

  6. phillip ure 6
    18 October 2014 at 9:36 am

    “..Paul Krugman Reveals How Conservative Economists Are Like Superstitious Medieval Crusaders..

    ..The market is treated like a God –

    – whose will only they can divine..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.alternet.org/economy/paul-krugman-reveals-how-conservative-economists-are-superstitious-medieval-crusaders

      • phillip ure 6.1.1
        18 October 2014 at 10:29 am

        not quite as black and white as jmg claims..

        ..(he seems to feel we are locked in some kind of stasis from which there is no escape..and totally discounts technological etc. advances..

        ..currently being worked on..and to come..to clean up our act..

        ..and i agree things are grim..and getting grimmer..but all is not lost..)

        ..and i give krugman credit for being almost a lone voice against the current paradigm..for a very long time..

        ..and feel there many more targets worthy of jmgs’ scorn..than krugman..

        ..who at least seems to walking roughly in the right direction..

        • marty mars 6.1.1.1
          18 October 2014 at 11:02 am

          I disagree phil – technological advances are up there with aliens coming to fix things imo – the collapse of civilisations follow a pattern and we are in it. The messy slide gives us many chances to adjust, to take stock, to sort our shit out – we can do that and that is where hope lives – believing in the white knight to fix everything is just another version of head in the sand – a way to change nothing in our lives, blame the ‘others’ for causing the problems, and live without thinking of the future we leave for our descendants.

  7. phillip ure 7
    18 October 2014 at 9:43 am

    lisa own is asking mccully all the questions he should be asked..

    ..on the nation..

    ..he is squirming like a rat in a trap..

    ..and has no answers to too many of owens’ questions..

    ..(it’s a must-watch..really..)

    one of owens’ questions was pointing out that in the last month saudi arabia have beheaded eight people..

    ..for such ‘crimes’ as sorcery..and adultery…

    ..and they have been invited to join this coalition against isis..

    ..how fucked up is that..?

    ..this is the timbre of our allies..in this religious/sectarian-battle..

    ..that john key is so eagerly signing us up for..

    • Paul 7.1
      18 October 2014 at 11:33 am

      Lisa Owen better not get too good at her job.
      They’ll replace her with someone like Paul Henry if she’s not careful.
      Questioning the establishment.
      That won’t do.

    • Lindsey 7.2
      18 October 2014 at 11:56 am

      Yes, the Saudis have beheaded almost 60 people this year – for crimes such as apostasy, adultery and sorcery.
      Just as civilised as ISIS.

  8. wekarawshark 8
    18 October 2014 at 10:03 am

    Resistance is strong in Ferguson. Day 70 of civil disobedience.

    Two open letters from protestors and allies,

    “We are not concerned if this disrupts normalcy.
    We will disrupt life until we can live”

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/243363734/An-American-Horror-Story-Open-Letter-from-Ferguson-Protestors-and-Allies-10-17-14

  9. karol 9
    18 October 2014 at 10:33 am

    Oh. Interesting. Penny Hulse has not ruled out running for Mayor of Auckland. Is this an NZ herald beat-up? Or is Hulse really likely to consider running for mayor in the future?

    Bernard Orsman wrote in today’s article:

    Auckland mayor Len Brown has returned from a month-long overseas holiday to a budget revolt by local boards and his deputy Penny Hulse not discounting a bid for the mayoral chains.

    Last night, Mrs Hulse said she was asked three or four times a day if she wanted to be mayor and indicated she would make a decision next year.

    “Would I have a crack at the top job? I wouldn’t discount it but there is an awful amount of water to flow under the bridge and a hell of a lot of time before the next election,” she told the Weekend Herald.

    Mrs Hulse said she was loyal to the mayor and would never stand against him.

    “The last thing he needs is a deputy mayor quietly kneecapping him in the background. That is not something I would do,” Mrs Hulse said.

  10. Bill 10
    18 October 2014 at 10:33 am

    ‘Fair Go’ was an insipid consumer affairs programme that did some nice things for people without taking a serious go at any root cause of injustice. Hardly the kind of catch phrase a political party might want to adopt then. Or is it just me who experiences shivers of disgust and loathing every time a prospective Labour leader throws the ‘fair go’ meme into an interview?

    • The Al1en 10.1
      18 October 2014 at 10:39 am

      If fair go, in a political sense, means equal opportunity on a level playing field for all, then no shiver of disgust here, more a tfft, about time.

      • Bill 10.1.1
        18 October 2014 at 10:50 am

        Yeah, I know what it’s meant to mean in a political sense, but what else people associate the phrase with is important because other associations can, depending on the strength of them, either bolster the message or distract/detract from it.

        And given that the TV programme was a bit of an institution in NZ…

        But if people don’t get a vague sense of some bespectacled guy and a couple of side kicks not a million miles removed from the cardboard cutout two-some who do the fucked up pharmaceutical infomercials, then hey.

        • The Al1en 10.1.1.1
          18 October 2014 at 10:54 am

          “but what else people associate the phrase with is important because other associations can, depending on the strength of them, either bolster the message or distract/detract from it.”

          Well you know what I think of it, for others, I’m sure it means no such thing, more like freebies to the poor and positive discrimination and such rot.
          Even though labour leadership contenders may speak with forked tongues, I doubt they mean that, though who really knows?

    • karol 10.2
      18 October 2014 at 10:46 am

      The widely resonating term “fair go” predated that TV programme. The TV show co-opted it for a narrowed purpose.

      But I think it still has a wider resonance in the Kiwi (and Australian) lingo. Aussies also talk a lot about a “fair go” as being a basic Aussie value.

      • Bill 10.2.1
        18 October 2014 at 10:52 am

        I know. But what pre-dates whatever is irrelevant when it comes to the associations people may have…it’s all about clear and effective messaging. And that requires a blank slate or a background that highlights or bolsters the basic message.

        • karol 10.2.1.1
          18 October 2014 at 10:55 am

          I think more people associate the term as a broader Kiwi value than with the TV programme.

        • wekarawshark 10.2.1.2
          18 October 2014 at 11:03 am

          Most NZers would have positive associations with Fair Go, esp older ones*. Fits with the whole kiwi battler thing, and the triumph of the little guy over the evil giant.

          *I haven’t watched it in years, but for a few generations it was an institution.

    • Murray Rawshark 10.3
      19 October 2014 at 1:27 am

      I associate the term with neoliberal politicians sticking the knife further into the dispossessed as they roll out a new policy with weasel words. They use it to refer back to an almost mythical past, one that they destroyed.

  11. greywarshark 11
    18 October 2014 at 10:52 am

    For those interested in our radionz and public broadcasting and the eternal criticism of any thorough critique as being left leaning here is a piece from Karl du Fresne from last year. Do you agree with his assertions – which I think are generalising and overblown.
    Once was Tim?
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/opinion/columnists/karl-du-fresne/8479793/RNZ-needs-to-right-its-lean-to-Left

    Public broadcasting organisations, by their very nature, tend to be Left-leaning.
    Australia’s ABC is perpetually under fire for partisan reporting and the prevalence of Left-wing views in current affairs programmes; Britain’s illustrious BBC only slightly less so.

    It’s not hard to understand how this comes about. Journalists distrustful of capitalism naturally gravitate toward state-owned media organisations, seeing them as untainted by the profit motive.
    This becomes self-perpetuating, since the more Left-leaning an organisation becomes, the more it attracts other people of the same persuasion….

    Kim Hill is the worst offender. This is a problem for whoever runs RNZ, because she’s also its biggest name. Chris Laidlaw lists to the Left too, as does Jeremy Rose, a journalist who frequently crops up on Laidlaw’s Sunday morning show.
    Rose appears to be on a lifelong mission to convince people that there are humane alternatives to nasty, heartless capitalism. He’s perfectly entitled to believe that, of course, but he has no right to co-opt the resources of RNZ to pursue his fixation. It’s an abuse of power to use a taxpayer-funded medium to promote pet ideological causes….

    An editor-in-chief who was doing his job properly would crack down on such abuses, for two reasons. The first and most important is that they breach RNZ’s duty to the public to present information fairly and impartially. The second, more pragmatic, reason is that the Left-wing bias apparent in some of RNZ’s programmes is hardly likely to endear the organisation to the politicians who control its fate. In saying this, I’m not suggesting for a moment that RNZ should become a tame government puppet. That would be far worse than the status quo.
    But we all have an interest in Radio New Zealand surviving, and a genuinely independent, non-partisan RNZ will be in a far stronger position to defend itself than one that consistently leaves itself exposed to allegations of bias.

    He doesn’t want RNZ to become a tame government puppet.
    He defines criticism of the status quo of capitalism as bad.
    He demeans Kim Hill, who he accepts as the most popular interviewer, but she is bad because he doesn’t like her.
    He doesn’t like robins because they wet their nests. (Picky unbalanced book customer in Monty Python sketch.)

    • wekarawshark 11.1
      18 October 2014 at 11:09 am

      He doesn’t really give any examples either. The closest he gets if the Ryan interview of Chester Burrows on welfar. The only way I would know what he means is to go and listen to it. If he wants to make his case, he needs to explain.

      • greywarshark 11.1.1
        18 October 2014 at 11:32 am

        wekarawshark 10.1
        He doesn’t need to explain anything. The people who are like him understand exactly what he means, and the ones who don’t, don’t matter as they are obviously skewed to the left, off balance, and about to fall over!

        Musing – I’ve just seen many appropriate and linked words from welfar: – well far, war, law, far, raw, are, few, well fare, farewell. Who’d a’ thought so much life activity could be found inside six little letters.

        • greywarshark 11.1.1.1
          18 October 2014 at 12:28 pm

          wekarawshark
          By the way did you think more on my idea about strolling players going from town to town acting out and educating on the climate change and economic likely outcomes and how to be ready and prepare for them. After this last election, it seems to me that something like this will have to be done. We have a slight majority of voters who are able to utilise this simple majority system we have for political power to avoid necessary actions. And we have a decayed left Party with a small, blurred vision, so have to start build one again, now Labour has been gamed by the opposition, to add to the Greens so that there is a recognisable body that people wanting merit, equity and worth (mew!) can support.

          (And no-one should talk confidently and acceptingly about binding referendums – it would just be replacing politicians making unresearched and unanalysed knee-jerk policy with the same from the public. I only see them being useful in forcing politicians to look at, and hold public select committee meetings on important matters, with a view to introducing a Bill if most agree, and it doesn’t turn the clock back to anti-social or unhealthy behaviours for citizens.)

          • wekarawshark 11.1.1.1.1
            18 October 2014 at 9:10 pm

            I’ve been overwhelmed in the past week (stuff in RL), so am pretty much in comment and run mode. But I still have your comment from the other day bookmarked to come back to 🙂 Would rather wait until I can give it some stressless attention.

      • greywarshark 11.1.2
        18 October 2014 at 1:23 pm

        For those who want some light relief I am putting a link to the best one of the bookshop sketch. I thought it was Monty Python but my preference is for this one with Marty Feldman and I think John Cleese but not sure about that.

    • karol 11.2
      18 October 2014 at 11:16 am

      du fresne seems to have a very skewed view of what counts as “left” – Ryan? ie, anyone who doesn’t support capitalism shouldn’t get a place on RNZ?

      And he ignores the whole of Morning Report, The Panel, Checkpoint, etc.

      The BBC is pretty supportive of the UK status quo – eg is often criticised for its very partisan antagonism towards Palestine, while being more pro Israel.

    • phillip ure 11.3
      18 October 2014 at 11:16 am

      he’s a rightwing fruitcake..

      ..why are you even reading/linking to him..?

      ..let alone considering the merits of what passes for ideas in his world..

    • Paul 11.4
      18 October 2014 at 11:38 am

      Karl du Fresne would think Margaret Thatcher had left wing tendencies.

    • Once Was Tim 11.5
      19 October 2014 at 3:43 pm

      I meant to reply yesterday @ grey.
      The comments that went with that article pretty much say it all. I’m not sure how he draws the conclusion that since journalists who find problems with capitalist imperatives find state-owned braodcasting their natural venue, and because they do and ‘naturally gravitate’ it becomes self-perpetuating. Perhaps they not ‘naturally journalists’. (There’s no reason why State-owned broadcasting can’t accommodate a range of views across political, social and cultural spectrum-as indeed it should. It’s a question of balance and if Karl du Fresne was actually a journalist he’d be prepared to challenge status quo whatever its colour – but as we know – he doesn’t)
      I distrust people like du Fresne because they use a language which fits their framing: “State-owned”, rather than “Public Service”. (But then that’s been the neo-liberal agenda by those who claim left or right credentials – and its one that attempts to denigrate the idea of ‘the State’ – which in democracies is meant to be representative of the public that empowers it.
      When it comes down to it, du Fresne shows himself incapable of understanding what constitutes a public (yes …. collective) good because he comes from the (politically collective) view that its all about money – naturally right wing I’d have thought, and because governments (the state) don’t generate money.

      I see PSB as a public good – in just the same way public education and public health is, and its probably just as important in that its supposed to be the voice of the public and the modern day public sphere. Perhaps I wouldn’t feel so strongly about it had the corporatists and monopolisers not taken over but diverse representation has to prevail.
      duFresne would probably be more comfortable in another era – when a variety of capitalists ran media, the Church ran education systems and you took your chances with health.

      Incidentally – I’ve heard his arguments exercised (almost word for word) by various media studies folk in academia (not that they agreed or otherwise). I suspect if I delved into it, a du Fresne essay might be marked down for plagiarism or poor referencing but he sure as hell hasn’t convinced me that PSB is inherently ‘left wing’. I wonder where he’d put people like Niall Ferguson (or various other overseas people that have benefited from a PSB income) on the political spectrum.
      And here in NZ ….
      Guyon Espiner, Jim Mora, Susie Ferguson, Kathryn Ryan, (the 5 day a week, 12 hour a day-ers) ….. left wingers? Not a left winger’s asshole amongst them!

  12. greywarshark 12
    18 October 2014 at 11:20 am

    @ phillip ure
    Just a serendipity meeting. But I think it is important to imbibe a bit of the poison regularly so as to not be knocked out when you come across it all unknowing-like and taste its virulence and cunning corrosiveness. Good adjectives eh. Nice bitta descriptive writing there.

  13. Morrissey 13
    18 October 2014 at 11:37 am

    The tragic decline of Mai Chen
    The Nation, TV3, Saturday 18 October 2014

    You’ve probably seen the heart-wrenching, horrifying scenes of Western captives being paraded in front of the camera by ISIS terrorists, before having their heads chopped off. And you are probably aware, despite the fact that the news media rarely acknowledge this embarrassing fact, that the maniacs who are doing this are the same people who have been running a bloody insurrection against the Syrian government for the last three and a half years. The United States and Great Britain have supported these murderers, militarily, financially, rhetorically and diplomatically. American and British support for the Syrian “opposition” continued even after one of them was filmed cutting the heart out of a slain Syrian soldier and biting into it….
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEQFmZrQAx8

    The head-chopping and heart-eating loons enjoyed the support of “the West” because they were unleashing their insanity against an official enemy, the state of Syria. They enjoyed the support not only of the United States and British governments, but also of such esteemed journals as the Daily Mail and Daily Express. But then they went and made a fatal, foolish mistake: they started chopping off the heads of the good guys—Americans and Englishmen.

    That’s unforgiveable. In fact, it’s such an affront to delicate Western sensibilities that a Nobel Peace Prize-winner (Pres. Hopey-Changey) has been moved to organize a massive Coalition of the Caring, consisting of himself, his gravel-voiced, deeply troubled-looking Secretary of State, a dozen or so Sunni Arab dictators, that moral nonpareil David “Snooty” Cameron and a couple of desperate-to-please underlings in Canada and Australia. Over the last month or so the Coalition of the Caring has dropped quite a few bombs in the deserts, some of them managing to hit their former protégés in ISIS.

    In the last week alone, Saudi Arabia has cut the heads off EIGHT people, guilty of the heinous crimes of “sorcery” and adultery. Oddly, the Coalition of the Caring hasn’t said a word about the moral need to bomb Saudi Arabia.

    On TV3’s The Nation this morning, Lisa Owen asked New Zealand’s robotic Foreign Minister Murray McCully why the Coalition of the Caring wasn’t focusing any criticism, let alone dropping bombs, on Saudi Arabia. McCully simply blustered, and refused to answer. When Lisa Owen pressed him on the matter, he showed signs of irritation, and continued to stonewall.

    Next, she interviewed former Australian prime minister Julia Gillard, who demonstrated, perhaps unwittingly, just what a nasty hypocrite she is. She expressed unqualified support for Tony Abbott’s decision to join the campaign against ISIS; her only justification for this was that “we have all been shocked” by the images of “what has been happening there.” Of course, we have all been shocked by the images of what Israel did to the captive enclave of Gaza two months ago, but neither Abbott nor Gillard called for the bombing of Haifa or Tel Aviv or West Jerusalem, all of which are notorious for harbouring thousands of brutal ideologues and war criminals. Lisa Owen then asked Gillard if, during her time in power, Australia ever engaged in spying on its allies, such as New Zealand. Gillard smiled and said she was never going to divulge such sensitive information. Almost in the next breath, Gillard had the gall to express concern at “the lack of transparency” about China’s military strength in the Asia-Pacific region.

    After that, there was a boring discussion about the New Zealand flag, between Ian Taylor and a bloke from the RSA. After looking at a selection of different designs for a possible new flag, the RSA man was unimpressed: “It’s not going to feed the poor, it’s not going to make our army more fearsome,” he intoned.

    He wants our army to be “fearsome”? Is this fearsome enough for him?….
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10587924

    The last part of the show consisted of a panel (Jon Stephenson, Mai Chen and Trish Sherson) discussing the week in politics. This was quite interesting. Jon Stephenson, as always, was excellent. He was scathing of John Key’s fear-mongering about a “terror threat” facing New Zealand. Trish Sherson is a PR consultant, and talks like one. But she was considered and thoughtful in comparison to Mai Chen, who was the one who sounded like a PR consultant. Chen is apparently highly impressed by New Zealand’s election to the Security Council. “It’s a strategic MASTERSTROKE,” she burbled. “We are RELEVANT now!”

    It’s a pity to see Mai Chen behave like this. She used to be a bright and well spoken contributor to discussions. What’s happened to her? I can see three reasons for this: 1.) She has appeared too often on Jim Mora’s light chat show on National Radio; 2.) She’s been too close to the mealy-mouthed “Sir” Geoffrey Palmer for too long; and 3.) She’s got her eye on a political career, and therefore honest, forthright commentary must now be dispensed with.

    • Paul 13.1
      18 October 2014 at 11:40 am

      Christopher Hitchens turned from a socialist critique of the West into a defender of the neocon invasion of Iraq.
      Mai Chen follows in his not so august footsteps.

      • phillip ure 13.1.1
        18 October 2014 at 11:51 am

        even worse..!

        ..aside from getting far too over-excited about this u.n.-bullshit..

        ..she actually said:..’at the end of the day’…

        ..whoar..!..

        ..what price education..?

      • Morrissey 13.1.2
        18 October 2014 at 7:12 pm

        As disappointed as I was with Mai Chen’s performance this morning, she would have to sink to an almost unthinkable level of depravity before I would compare her to Christopher Hitchens. That fellow was a supremely gifted writer, who ended up being regarded by most people as a courtier, a crawler and a callous, unapologetic liar. In his risible final book, he spends several pages enviously detailing how wonderfully urbane his friend Martin Amis was in the company of the young women at a Manhattan brothel they were visiting. He also indulges in a ridiculous attack on Noam Chomsky, and calls the democratically elected Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez a “dictator”.

        George Galloway, who memorably humiliated him in 2005 in New York City, was dead right when he said that Hitchens had transformed himself from a butterfly into a slug.

  14. swordfish 14
    18 October 2014 at 11:46 am

    Just set out the Epsom / Ohariu Split Vote (2014 compared to 2011)
    Here… http://sub-z-p.blogspot.co.nz/
    Read it and weep.

    Despite one or two pleasing signs, overall Labour and Green voters appear to be regressing when it comes to strategic voting.

    Epsom
    Positive = Less Labour voters cast their Candidate-Vote for the ACT candidate compared to 2011 (down 2 points)

    Negative = Unfortunately, at the same time, a lower proportion of Labour voters cast their Candidate-Vote for Goldsmith (down 4 points). Meanwhile, the Greens also swung away from strategically voting Goldsmith (down a woeful 10 points) and towards their own Green candidate Genter instead (up 12).

    Ohariu
    Positive = Both Green and Labour Party-Voters were less likely to Candidate-Vote Dunne this time (down 6 points and 4 points respectively) and they were both more likely to vote for Labour’s Andersen than Chauvel in 2011 (up 4 points in both cases)

    Negative = Green and Labour voters were also – rather pointlessly – more likely to vote for the Green candidate as well (up 2 points among Labour voters and up 4 points among Green voters).

    Still, you’ve gotta laugh, don’t ya guv.

  15. joe90 15
    18 October 2014 at 11:53 am

    WTF is wrong with these people.

    In the recording, made during a fringe meeting at the Conservative conference two weeks ago, the peer said that some disabled people could be paid £2 an hour, rather than the full rate of £6.50, if they wanted to work.

    Responding to a question from a councillor, he said: “You make a really good point about the disabled. Now I had not thought through, and we have not got a system for, you know, kind of going below the minimum wage.”

    Lord Freud added: “There is a small… there is a group, and I know exactly who you mean, where actually as you say they’re not worth the full wage, and actually I’m going to go and think about that particular issue, whether there is something we can do nationally, and without distorting the whole thing, which actually if someone wants to work for £2 an hour, and it’s working can we actually…”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lord-freud-tory-welfare-minister-accused-of-claiming-disabled-people-are-not-worth-the-minimum-wage-9796062.html

    Oh, that’s right, they’re sociopaths.

    http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/why-lord-freud-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen–l1tmM-q48e

  16. greywarshark 16
    18 October 2014 at 12:39 pm

    Nicky Hager’s fund now at $53,000. There are 5 anonymous donors with anonymous amounts. I can’t see why the amount shouldn’t be declared. It makes me uneasy. that they are not genuine donations, just timewasters. Some have left their name in and the amount out which I understand. Some $100 ones have come through recently. Those noughts sure add up when they line up behind a larger number.

    • wekarawshark 16.1
      18 October 2014 at 1:41 pm

      When I donated, I left my name out and the amount donated. That’s because I’d never used that system before and I wasn’t sure what was being displayed or recorded. Nothing sinister, just default precautionary principle.

  17. greywarshark 17
    18 October 2014 at 12:49 pm

    How to make it harder to get even basic semi-skilled jobs that are already in short supply. Advertisement on line seen while browsing:

    Labourers Needed Now!
    Coverstaff
    You will also need to be able to pass a pre-employment drug screen and have a solid work history. Want some variety in your work?…

    Perhaps for labourers variety would be if they were ambi-dextrous, so could approach the job from either left or the right side?

    • wekarawshark 17.1
      18 October 2014 at 1:43 pm

      which is the harder bit? Solid work history? Drug test?

      • Draco T Bastard 17.1.1
        18 October 2014 at 5:05 pm

        These days – a solid work history as they can’t afford the drugs due to not having any work.

        • TheContrarian 17.1.1.1
          18 October 2014 at 5:55 pm

          You’d be surprised at how many people can afford drugs yet don’t have any work. If people want drugs, they’ll always find a way.

  18. bearded rawshark 18
    18 October 2014 at 3:19 pm

    I love the Standard, the whole lot, from the brilliant discussion of policy to the endless tittle-tattle and bitching.

    BUT I do think the endless comments in Open Mike get in the way of policy discussions when all mixed up.

    Could I suggest we have 2 new categories each day splitting Open Mike into Open Mike General and Open Mike Policy Discussion?

    Or some other solution? This is bearing in mind that policy did not seem to come across to the public in the last election.

    Just an idea, others may have better ideas that achieve the same end.

    • karol 18.1
      18 October 2014 at 4:01 pm

      Policies get discussed when they are rolled out, and when they get some major scrutiny.

      There were policies rolled out before the elections that got discussed. But since then, it’s mainly the Nats’ rushed policies in the last few weeks, which do get separate posts: state housing, etc.

      I don’t think many people will be into keeping on discussing the same policies endlessly, unless some major new issue is raised about them.

    • greywarshark 18.2
      18 October 2014 at 5:22 pm

      Bearded Rawshark 18
      That would be a good idea if it was feasible without costing anything! Some OM are weightier than others. And the thing about OM is that everything is wiped after a certain time so good stuff would need to be transferred to an appropriate post if one comes up. It would be easier to see what things should stay on record and retrievable.

  20. The Al1en 20
    18 October 2014 at 5:20 pm

    That’s a phallicy 🙂

  21. amirite rawshark 21
    18 October 2014 at 6:59 pm

    Bolivia has reduced poverty and inequality more than any country in the Western Hemisphere over the last ten years by lifting the minimum wage, lifting tax on oil companies, lowering retirement age to 60, doubling spending on education and healthcare and managed to turn deficit into a world’s largest surplus.

    http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/the-americas-blog/bolivias-economy-under-evo-in-10-graphs

    • Clemgeopin 21.1
      18 October 2014 at 7:22 pm

      Those are stunning statistics. All the Labour leadership contenders should study these graphs and see how they can improve NZ and get rid of the 80 billion dollars or so of debt accumulated by Key and English in just six years!

  22. Morrissey 22
    18 October 2014 at 7:00 pm

    Don’t trust journalists, doctors, nurses and ambulance drivers:
    They failed to see that the destruction of Gaza was imaginary

    Who would have known? Those dastardly Palestinians have been staging these so-called massacres of themselves. Just like the moon landing, and the 9/11 attacks, Hollywood—or in this case, its evil cousin Pallywood—has been taking us for a ride. More top-notch journalism from Cameron “Blubberguts” Slater…

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/10/anatomy-hamas-pallywood-production/

  23. Fred 23
    18 October 2014 at 7:44 pm

    We still need to push for full investigation into all the matters raised in the book Dirty Politics, by an independent Royal Commission.

    please sign and forward etc.

    http://www.actionstation.org.nz/openletter2

  24. finbar 24
    18 October 2014 at 10:38 pm

    Not going to happen Fred.John told the polic after winning this election,sit on him,get into his house,get that Hager..

    Got to love all them,that say.Hager,just another tosser upstart,what does he know about our way of life and what we have acheived.Plenty realy,see how your mind set has turned on Hager,see how your usury and its profits exploitation have turned on Hager,see how your totalitarian beleif ignores.Off course you do.Yes we do,look how they voted,they voted for us,we won,the best you could do,was put up a poor reflection of what we are,your Labour parlimantarians.

  25. Cookie Minister 25
    18 October 2014 at 10:50 pm

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/16/nicky-hager-raid/

    NEW ZEALAND COPS RAIDED HOME OF REPORTER WORKING ON SNOWDEN DOCUMENTS

    Agents from New Zealand’s national police force ransacked the home of a prominent independent journalist earlier this month who was collaborating with ……………………

    But in seizing all the paper files and electronic devices in Hager’s home, the authorities may have also taken source material concerning other unrelated stories that Hager was pursuing. Recognizing the severity of the threat posed to press freedoms from this raid, the Freedom of the Press Foundation today announced a global campaign to raise funds for Hager’s legal defense.

    “This was an unusually heavy action for New Zealand police to take against someone in the media,” Hager told The Intercept. “Occasionally police use a warrant to go after a particular piece of evidence held by a media person or organization. But hours of sifting through someone’s files and seizing piles of their materials does not normally occur. It has a strong smell of politics about it.”