Open mike 19/09/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, September 19th, 2019 - 94 comments
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94 comments on “Open mike 19/09/2019 ”

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  1. Adrian Thornton 1
    19 September 2019 at 9:26 am

    Great to amazon making it's shit TV in good old New Zealand, here is a clip from one of their upcoming delights… prefaced by quite a good comment about the clip, just so you have an idea of what you are letting yourself in for…

    "No matter how cynical you might be about propagandistic American media, you are not prepared for how much watching this trailer is like snorting 100% pure John Bolton"

  2. joe90 2
    19 September 2019 at 9:41 am

    Kid has more nous in her little finger than an entire legislature put together has.

    https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1174367982107189248

    Greta Thunberg, the 16-year-old Swedish activist who has galvanized young people across the world to strike for more action to combat the impact of global warming, politely reminded them that she was a student, not a scientist – or a senator.

    “Please save your praise. We don’t want it,” she said. “Don’t invite us here to just tell us how inspiring we are without actually doing anything about it because it doesn’t lead to anything.

    “If you want advice for what you should do, invite scientists, ask scientists for their expertise. We don’t want to be heard. We want the science to be heard.”

    In remarks meant for Congress as a whole, she said: “I know you are trying but just not hard enough. Sorry.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/17/greta-thunberg-to-congress-youre-not-trying-hard-enough-sorry

    • Molly 2.1
      19 September 2019 at 10:29 am

      On the topic of climate change, there is a good interview with Naomi Klein on Truthdig.

      … IN: How do you make sure that workers, and particularly workers of color and women, and other marginalized groups have a seat at the table?

      NK: Right. I think it means that the green movement has to be taking on the supposedly green companies that are engaged in union busting, like Tesla, and fighting alongside unions to make sure that green jobs are good, unionized jobs.

      It’s also in the text of the AOC, of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Ed Markey’s resolution that there should be not only a jobs guarantee, but that workers should be guaranteed to be paid at the same level, same level of salary and benefits in their new jobs as they were in their older jobs. So that’s in the text of the resolution. These are protections that can and must be built into the transition…

      …

      NK: Right. When you look at polling around the momentum for climate action, it actually hews very closely to how well the economy is doing. So because the kinds of climate policies that have tended to be on the agenda have been these market-based solutions, like a carbon tax for instance, right, or cap and trade or maybe paying a little bit more for renewable energy, right, what often happens is that people will get scared about the science. A film like “An Inconvenient Truth” will come out. There’ll be a sense of “Yes, we have to do this.” And then there’ll be a recession, right. People will be struggling to hold on to their homes, they will be desperately looking for jobs and facing those daily crises in an economic emergency.

      And then what happens is that interest in climate action goes down, because as they say in France, the gilet jaunes [yellow vest] movement, “You care about the end of the world. We care about the end of the month,” right. And so that’s what happened during the Obama years. There was this momentum, but as the recession really began to bite, the momentum, climate action came to be equated with a luxury that you couldn’t afford in a time of economic downturn…

      …

      IN: One passage in the book that particularly struck me was when you talked to a woman protesting, saying, “The hard truth is that the answer to the question ‘What can I, as an individual, do to stop climate change?’ is: nothing.” I wondered if you could talk a little bit more about that, because I think there is a growing tension between individual actions, like cutting out meat and driving less and trying to lobbying for giant corporations and governments to reduce their carbon emissions, even change their whole business models, to protect the environment.

      NK: Well, I think that I don’t think anybody is arguing or I mean anybody serious is arguing that we are going to achieve the levels of emission reductions that we need through voluntary lifestyle changes. There’s no doubt that you can lower your own personal carbon footprint, right, by cutting out meat, by not flying, by not driving or driving electric [cars] powered by renewables. Most people don’t have these choices, and in order for this to add up to the level of change that we need, you would need every single person to voluntarily do it.

      But that said, if we look at the historical precedence where we have seen massive societal change, whether it is the New Deal or whether it is the transformations of the American economy during the Second World War, it was absolutely critical that there was a perception of fairness. Meaning that it was not only working people who were being asked to make changes, to make sacrifices, that it was also massive corporations who were being dragged kicking and screaming to also make sacrifices, to also make changes, to also abide by new regulations that impacted their profits.

      And that perception of fairness was absolutely critical in terms of people accepting the change. What we see in France with the gilet jaunes movement is that it is precisely the double standard, right, of seeing the tax breaks being given to big polluters and multimillionaires whose carbon footprints are sky high, while people who are already facing all of these stresses in a precarious economy are being asked to pay more.

      I don’t think anybody serious seriously is saying voluntary lifestyle changes are going to do it. But I do think that you can make a serious argument that it’s important if you can, to change your lifestyle so that you can see and show others that actually it is possible to live well within our carbon budget. And that is an important kind of lived reality to be able to hold up in the face of all of this scaremongering that you’re going to get from the Fox Newses and all of the fossil fuel talking points that this is about just destroying people’s lives and so on, right. There are going to be sacrifices if we design this well.

      We’re also going to have way better public transit. We can have better jobs and better working conditions, better services like for health care and education and a care economy. We can have a renaissance in public art. There are things that will improve. And yes, there are some things that will contract. We have to be honest about that.

      • Molly 2.1.1
        19 September 2019 at 10:52 am

        Naomi Klein also in a video on The Intercept:

        "What's in a Trump Straw?"

        So many environmental responses have just been minor tweaks to an economy based on endless consumption — take your electric car to the drive-through for an Impossible Burger and a Coke with a paper straw. Of course it’s better than the alternative. But it’s nowhere close to the depth of change required if we hope to actually pull our planet back from the brink. Restricting plastic straws is great. But we also need a ban on those significantly larger cylindrical sucking things. And electric cars are nice, if you can afford them. But what we really need is free, zero emissions public transit with energy-efficient non-market housing and health care steps away. We need new ways of thinking, beyond Trumpian temper tantrums or the dangerous incrementalism of the supposedly serious centrists.

        Similar attempts at incrementalism is what makes submitting on consultation processes like Auckland Council's Climate Change framework so dispiriting. The framework itself is self-limiting in what it is looking at, and so, is limited in effective change. Anyone can provide feedback – even non-Aucklanders IIRC.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    19 September 2019 at 10:10 am

    Alison Mau is one of a group of women who formed a Trust in 2017, to help Rachel MacGregor meet the legal fees needed for a High Court trial.

    Here's her report of the outcome just now published: Rachel MacGregor 1, Colin Craig 0.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/115912281/alison-mau-rachel-macgregors-win-is-one-for-all-workers

    • alwyn 3.1
      19 September 2019 at 10:24 am

      Is that what Ms Mau has been up to?

      It's a pity she hasn't been heard from about the disgraceful cover-up that the Government has been running on the activities of their employee in Parliament isn't it?

        • Dukeofurl 3.1.1.1
          19 September 2019 at 11:07 am

          Alwrong is what hes known for.

        • alwyn 3.1.1.2
          19 September 2019 at 11:24 am

          The first article is basically a rehash of the party line. eg. She never claimed there was any sexual assault and so on.

          The latter on, a couple of days ago, was one I hadn't seen. Mau has finally come out on the side of the victims. I hadn't seen this as I don't buy the printed Dom/Post any longer and I don't see everything they print.. It is really the first time though that she has broken her silence though isn't it? However yes I was wrong. She has finally come out of her shell. And about time.

          • lprent 3.1.1.2.1
            19 September 2019 at 1:38 pm

            Did you ever consider that the Labour panel might have simply described the truth. So far I haven't seen any evidence that indicates otherwise. For that matter when you read Alison Mau's articles closely, she is very cautious about saying talking about generalities rather than specifics.

            Or is it just that you just have a pathological need to think that everyone involved in Labour will always just lie for the hell of it?

            I think that your attitude says way way more about you than anyone else. Partisan and quite stupid.

            • ianmac 3.1.1.2.1.1
              19 September 2019 at 1:58 pm

              Good call Iprent

            • halfcrown 3.1.1.2.1.2
              19 September 2019 at 7:08 pm

              "I think that your attitude says way way more about you than anyone else. Partisan and quite stupid."

              Nice one

            • alwyn 3.1.1.2.1.3
              19 September 2019 at 7:29 pm

              "Did I ever consider .."

              Of course I did. After all I don't know they were told the things the victim says she told them. But if I believed the Party line I would have to believe that Ms Ardern didn't know anything about the claims of assault until a few days ago. No-one told her she says. Hmm.

              I would have to believe she didn't even suspect anything might have gone on, despite the blogs have been full of the topic for a month and a half. Hmm.

              However, what do I think is the likely situation? I really find it very difficult to accept that the victim was lying, and the Party representatives are telling the truth. Very, very difficult to see that as more than a very high odds. Perhaps more likely that winning Powerball but about on a par with winning Lotto.

              Another question you ask is whether I think "Labour will always just lie for the hell of it". Of course I don't think that. They will lie if they think it is their interest to lie. That isn't the same thing. It is merely par for the course with politicians who have screwed things up. Good politicians don't actually lie of course. They just fool you into thinking they said something other than what they really did.

              As far as your opinion of my attitude goes. I find your opinion quite silly. But everyone is entitled to some silly moments.

              • lprent …
                19 September 2019 at 9:20 pm

                However, what do I think is the likely situation? I really find it very difficult to accept that the victim was lying, and the Party representatives are telling the truth. Very, very difficult to see that as more than a very high odds.

                You must have observed politics for some time, right? What is the approved way to lie? After all you only have to look at the experts like Bennett, Farrar, or Collins (and some on the left as well). They prevaricate, obstrufacate, and divert.

                What Simon Mitchell and co have done is to not do any of those things. What he said was that he never saw or heard anything to do with sexual assault allegations presented to him from the person who said that they had. He also pointed directly to the documents that he received and saw, apparently the same ones that a complainant referred to.

                Good politicians don't actually lie of course. They just fool you into thinking they said something other than what they really did.

                So point to something in the simple statement that Simon Mitchell put out as an example – show me the where he has said something that can’t be checked in the forensic record or from the other witnesses present.

                Try to see any of the traditional political techniques in there for lying without getting caught. Basically I bet that
                1. you haven’t tried.
                2. you are probably too timid to do so because it would upset your personal bigotry.

                Of course I don't think that. They will lie if they think it is their interest to lie.

                So where exactly is Simon Mitchell's interest in lying? A volunteer who has no real economic stake in the Labour party and who lends himself to the thankless task of a volunteer on the NZ Council (and it is a thankless task).

                This isn't a politician. Most of the time he runs essentially unopposed and probably secretly wishes some would oppose him.

                Nigel Howarth is the same. I've run across him a few times. Mu guess is that he will be happy to get back to academia.

                Which is EXACTLY why I think that you are an extremely stupid partisan dimwit who is too stupid to use your brains.

                But everyone is entitled to some silly moments.

                Yes – but you seem to have them all of the time when it comes to anything left-wing. You ever ask yourself why you believe such stupid ideas – because you are a simpleton bigot, Or are you just too lazy to think. Or just too stupid…

                Or all three?

                The only person I see lying around here is you – and I suspect that you’re mostly lying to yourself. It is cowardly and quite pathetic.

                • In Vino …
                  19 September 2019 at 11:20 pm

                  I echo Ianmac – another good call.

                  • Rapunzel …
                    20 September 2019 at 5:50 am

                    I do too, in life you come to realise that many things are often very simple but some can be elevated, or develop, into something more than they were. In work, business or family slight mismanagements, actions or misunderstandings can either reach good outcomes or outcomes, estrangements and divisions that can never, or often rarely, can be undone. Some media play that up for their own reasons and the National Party are relying on it as almost their only path back to government at this time.

                • alwyn …
                  20 September 2019 at 12:13 pm

                  "observed politics for some time, right".

                  Oh yes. I imagine the first time I met a Prime Minister was before you were born.

                  "Simon Mitchell". I believe he, and the other people on his panel did, to the best of their ability, do what they were supposed to. Find that nothing happened in other words. If he didn't happen to see something I don't believe that he would have hunted for it. That might have meant being forced to see something he didn't want to.

                  "(and it is a thankless task)".

                  Of course it is. However he will now find out the worst. The only thing that matters is to keep attention of the Leader. If you fail at that you will discover that you are expendable. I imagine that is what he is discovering now.

                  He doesn't really matter of course. The politicians thast have power matter and they are finding it very hard to escape scrutiny.

                  "The only person I see lying around here is you – and I suspect that you’re mostly lying to yourself. It is cowardly and quite pathetic."

                  Frankly I give a damn what you think. I don't see the world the way you do and therefore you are striking out with all your impotent rage.

    • Dukeofurl 3.2
      19 September 2019 at 11:06 am

      While Craig has been highly unsavoury person.

      McGregor too was found to have defamed Craig and had instituted her own legal proceedings against him.

      The decision says this:

      "The disputes between Mr Craig and Ms MacGregor were actually resolved in a confidential settlement in May 2015, with the help of two senior lawyers. That settlement was undone in material part by the involvement of a Mr Williams and a Mr Slater, both of whom have also been engaged in defamation proceedings with Mr Craig.

      The defamation case raised the harrasemnt all over again

      However Craig offered to settle with McGregor

      "During 2018 he did make a number of open offers that both parties withdraw their claims and his last offer included an offer to pay $30,000 on account of costs. Ms MacGregor declined those offers.

      Dont see the any reality for a 'poor woman dragged through the Courts' at all.

      https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/cases/craig-v-mcgregor/@@images/fileDecision?r=923.114967511

      • lprent 3.2.1
        19 September 2019 at 1:49 pm

        Dont see the any reality for a 'poor woman dragged through the Courts' at all.

        Oh she was. In the cases with Craig against Williams it was perfectly evident that she didn't want to be there and had been compelled to be there.

        Go and dig out the reports and the transcripts from the time.

        As the Mau article stated…

        In 2015, MacGregor had good reason to think the pain might be over. She had settled her sexual harassment case against Craig at the Human Rights Commission. The settlement was confidential, and MacGregor expected to be able to put the whole sorry experience behind her. No chance.

        Craig went on to hold two media conferences, publish a pamphlet that went to 1.6 million Kiwi homes, and be interviewed in a sauna on the subject. It's those actions, and MacGregor's response to Craig's original harassment, that formed the nub of the High Court trial last year.

        Effectively this particular episode has been through at least 5 legal rounds so far (not counting this one reported), and effectively only the first was initiated by McGregor – the one to the human rights about employment.

        The rest of it has been by three complete arseholes – Craig, Williams and Slater using her as a witness pawn in their political and legal games. The High court case just concluded (and maybe its inevitable appeal) was a direct result of Craig breaking his previous agreement after Williams used material held by him in trust for safe-keeping.

        Do you think that Craig could be trusted not to drag her into court again? He would in a heart beat as far as I can see. I wouldn’t trust any assurance from him – he doesn’t appear to be particularly aware of the concepts of having personal ethics or morals.

  4. Jimmy 4
    19 September 2019 at 10:31 am

    That poor woman. She has had years of hell due to that vindictive man.

    • Peter 4.1
      19 September 2019 at 10:59 am

      If Colin Craig had paid Ms McGregor more when she wanted it would the situation have run as it has and over so many years?

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11708735

      • lprent 4.1.1
        19 September 2019 at 9:31 pm

        Reading that article, I think that the real problem was that she hadn’t been paid for months during the election campaign and that the Craig had loaned her money rather than paying her. Do you think that was a reasonable behaviour for an employer…

        Perhaps you should try reading the articles you link to.

        What you have to remember is that the only reason that this came to light again was because that despicable arsehole Jordan Williams gave documents that he was holding in trust for her to Cameron Slater to attack Colin Craig.

        This has been well -established across multiple court cases. Perhaps you should try reading rather than playing with yourself and writing your misogynist grunts here.

    • greywarshark 4.2
      19 September 2019 at 11:32 am

      Gee Jimmy you put that so well, you big soft-hearted thing.

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    19 September 2019 at 12:50 pm

    "Tamihere says he won't be dictated to by the thought police." Often what politicians don't say is more significant that what they do say, and that could be the case here. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/middayreport/audio/2018713976/midday-news-for-19-september-2019

    He's leaving the option open that he could be dictated to by someone else. A political consultant, for instance. A suitable female with political aspirations may see the opportunity to become the power behind JT's throne as mayor. Acquiring whip & fishnet stockings, she may offer her services – to issue instructions in bondage sessions. A traditional lifestyle even before Lou Reed sang about it in the Velvet Underground (firstly in mid 1965, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_in_Furs_(song)).

    Yeah, I know, bit of a stretch. Only normal for upper-class Englishmen. But you never know – stranger things have happened.

    • greywarshark 5.1
      19 September 2019 at 2:33 pm

      Chris Trotter giving John Tamihere his day in the court of outraged opinion over his Seig Heil riposte. Foolish and makes him appear to be all mouth and no trousers!

      https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2019/09/jojo-tamihere-salutes-herr-goff.html

      • Dennis Frank 5.1.1
        19 September 2019 at 2:56 pm

        Godwin's law is almost thirty years old: "Promulgated by the American attorney and author Mike Godwin in 1990, Godwin's law originally referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions. It is now applied to any threaded online discussion, such as Internet forums, chat rooms, and comment threads, as well as to speeches, articles, and other rhetoric where reductio ad Hitlerum occurs."

        "Godwin has stated that he introduced Godwin's law in 1990 as an experiment in memetics." It worked: "In 2012, "Godwin's law" became an entry in the third edition of the Oxford English Dictionary."

        "Coined by Leo Strauss in 1953, reductio ad Hitlerum borrows its name from the term used in logic, reductio ad absurdum (reduction to the absurd). According to Strauss, reductio ad Hitlerum is a form of ad hominem, ad misericordiam, or a fallacy of irrelevance. The suggested rationale is one of guilt by association. It is a tactic often used to derail arguments, because such comparisons tend to distract and anger the opponent."

        So when a bunch of commentators here were busy likening Trump to Hitler (as recently as the year before last), I bet they didn't know they were exhibiting a syndrome identified more than sixty years ago!

        • phillip ure 5.1.1.1
          19 September 2019 at 3:46 pm

          fuck godwins law – and the faux-prohibition it attempts..

          (and i say 'faux' because ti my mind it is bullshit..)

          a nazi is a nazi..end of story..

          and if the direct comparisons cannot be made between germany under hitler – and what trump is doing to immigrant families/children – clearly not enough attention is being paid..

          and if you don't compare the barbaric behavior of trump – to the works of hitler..?

          just who do you compare it to..?

          (as i said – fuck godwins' law..)

          • Dennis Frank 5.1.1.1.1
            19 September 2019 at 4:37 pm

            Won't disagree – I had the same stance all thro the '70s, all thro the '80s, all thro the '90s. Problem with growing old (with an open mind) is you gradually acquire a tolerance of other views. If empathic, you even end up seeing things from other points of view too.

            So my generation of rebels called govts fascist (regardless of whether they were Labour or National, Democrat or Republican) when they acted accordingly, which was most of the time. Police brutality was normal, for instance. Left & right both enjoyed eliminating the civil rights of cannabis smokers – target a minority group, the establishment gets off on that shit.

            So demonising Trump, who comes across as a clown rather than a fascist, seems more like missing the point to me. I don't defend his immigration policy, just point it out when folks misrepresent it. He's just doing what he was elected to do. Democracy.

        • greywarshark 5.1.1.2
          19 September 2019 at 3:48 pm

          But is it the same today> Everything warps over time and I guess that a syndrome does too, after all it's "a characteristic combination of opinions, emotions, or behaviour."

          Hitler seems much closer now than 60 years ago and we understand from the numerous studies of 1930 – 1940s how he found his wormhole to power. I don't think that Godwin's law can be thrown at every mention of that name; perhaps we should update it and replace it with 'Douglas', I have thought that the moustache had a certain familiarity.

        • McFlock 5.1.1.3
          19 September 2019 at 4:17 pm

          It's not a syndrome if it's a thoughtful, reasoned comparison.

        • weka 5.1.1.4
          19 September 2019 at 4:28 pm

          "So when a bunch of commentators here were busy likening Trump to Hitler (as recently as the year before last), I bet they didn't know they were exhibiting a syndrome identified more than sixty years ago!"

          Except that Trump is trying to create a fascist state. There's been a large amount of political analysis of this. That's not invoking Godwin's Law. A commenter calling another commenter a Nazi is.

          • Dennis Frank 5.1.1.4.1
            19 September 2019 at 4:48 pm

            Trump is trying to create a fascist state

            You really believe that? Must be a generational thing. Those of us who have had to live much of our lives threatened by the spectre of fascism know it when we see it.

            As I pointed out last time this topic was seriously raised, Roger Donaldson would not have made Sleeping Dogs if it hadn't been in our cultural ambience at the time. But Muldoon merely talked tough. He didn't actually do fascism via govt policy. Where is the Wanganui computer now? Trash heap? I recall when it was promising us Orwell's 1984 made real in Aotearoa.

            I get that Trump's style is Muldoon a little (but with a dose of LSD & speed thrown in, not to mention Alice in Wonderland). People have a right to see others as a threat, that's human nature, but it's a big political mistake to assume others will see it similarly.

            Bolton got fired the other day. Too hardline, apparently. If Trump really was fascist, he wouldn’t have felt that way. To him, his political allies are as disposable as his political enemies. My way or the highway. Makes him more like Stalin than Hitler. But don’t let that comparison tempt you. The Don hasn’t shot anyone. Nor even employed thugs to eliminate irritants. Media libs would have been doing outrage about it if it had happened…

            • McFlock 5.1.1.4.1.1
              19 September 2019 at 5:09 pm

              The Don hasn’t shot anyone. Nor even employed thugs to eliminate irritants.

              Yeah, look up the "proud boys" and their connections to the repugs some time.

              • Dennis Frank …
                19 September 2019 at 5:40 pm

                Did. Agree the connection to Roger Stone is worth knowing. "At a televised Trump rally in Miami, Florida, on February 18, 2019, Tarrio was seated directly behind President Trump wearing a "Roger stone did nothing wrong" tee shirt." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Stone

                Violent fellow-travellers only, so far. Potential threat, sure. Only 3 years into it, so yet to withstand the test of time. Anti-porn & masturbation is the key – mental/emotional self-discipline as part of group ethos does make guys tough. One to watch…

                • McFlock …
                  19 September 2019 at 6:06 pm

                  They're not the only ones.

                  For me, the big thing was the separation of kids with no intention of ever returning them to their parents. And the deaths in custody. If the deaths were a bureaucratic error, there would be bureaucracy for eventually reuniting the kids and the parents. But the system doesn't even regard immigrants as highly as livestock these days.

                  Which means his dehumanisation of immigrants wasn't just rhetoric, it was policy he was happy to watch implemented.

                  As far as he thinks about policy (which isn't much) Dolt45 is an isolationist nazi-adjacant. Bolton is an imperialist. That's why they were at odds. Hard line in different directions.

            • weka 5.1.1.4.1.2
              19 September 2019 at 5:52 pm

              "You really believe that?"

              That he's trying to create an authoritarian state? Yes. Whether that will look like historical fascism or not I don't know. But it's not about my beliefs, there are plenty of people with experience in either studying and writing about fascism and how it arises, or with direct experience of fascism who are making these critiques about Trump. Including Jewish people btw.

              "Makes him more like Stalin than Hitler. But don’t let that comparison tempt you. The Don hasn’t shot anyone. Nor even employed thugs to eliminate irritants. Media libs would have been doing outrage about it if it had happened…"

              There was a point at which Stalin hadn't shot people yet, so I don't know what you are trying to say there. That the US isn't a fascist state in 2019? Sure, I'd agree with that. Fascism doesn't just spring up one day, so I'm more interested in what the process is.

              • Dennis Frank …
                19 September 2019 at 6:19 pm

                Having owned and read at least two biographies of Stalin, my guess is that the point he hadn't yet shot anyone was when he was in the seminary, studying to be a priest, prior to his career in the Tsar's secret police.

                Fascism is an ideology, historically, more than a behaviour. Trump has no evident ideology (too mercenary). It requires an organisation to give it political form and impact. The USA lacks that. The authoritarian state in that federation has been under attack from the right for a long time – he uses it as an operational convenience to achieve a suitable historical legacy.

                As such, I see no evidence that he's any more than a conservative narcissist playing the radical (to steer the establishment away from global elite control).

                • McFlock …
                  19 September 2019 at 6:36 pm

                  Forget the "global elite control" bs.

                  Is there any difference between a "conservative narcissist" and the radical you think he plays, once he's in office?

                  They're still doing the raids.

                  He still banned immigrants based on religion.

                  Right wing thugs are still marching with greater vigour.

                  And anyway did anyone say the same thing about hitler: that he's not really serious about it all? Probably.

                  • Psycho Milt …
                    19 September 2019 at 6:42 pm

                    Definitely. He was quite popular with conservatives in western democracies right up until the invasion of Poland. Even that only thinned out the numbers – took another couple of years for him to get beyond the pale.

                    • phillip ure …
                      20 September 2019 at 5:18 am

                      he was also popular with left-wingers – 'cos of the strong domestic (socialist for want of a better word..) polices he instigated..

                      those 'family-support' domestic polices were what gained him the strong domestic support he had..

                      and if read without knowing the origin – many if those policies wd be applauded by current leftwingers..

                      (he didn't just come to power in a vacuum – there are reasons/explanations for the support he had..)

                      so contrary to what p.m said – many leftists/intellectuals in the west supported hitler – at first..

                    • McFlock …
                      20 September 2019 at 8:00 pm

                      "left wingers" who would vote for a guy who hated immigrants. Yeah nah.

                      He won because he was the loudest fuckwit in an uninspiring pool of primary candidates, and people tried to fight (and report) him like he was a competent politician. All the lying the repugs have done since the 1990s – ken starr, WMD, tea party – bit them in the arse and their anointed blandity (Bush 3) still tried to keep one foot in reality.

                      People need to figure out how to fight a reality vacuum. Calling it out in contempt seems to do better against bojo than tryinhg to debate with him like he’s a normal huiman being.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    19 September 2019 at 8:00 pm

                    No, he's still doing both. I agree re Hitler not taken seriously. Don't agree re your denial of global elites &/or Trump's leading the rightist charge to rout them. Try learning from Brexit.

                    • McFlock …
                      19 September 2019 at 9:02 pm

                      Try making a damned point about them, rather than just using random incantations.

                      If drumpf was such an opponent of the "global elites" (depending on how you even define that term), why are the career repugs fucking their own grandmothers' corpses to keep him in power?

                      Why aren't US billionaires (real ones) pulling funding from the repugs?

                      If he really is just playing "a conservative narcissist playing the radical (to steer the establishment away from global elite control)", he's not having much success at steering the "establishment". They're not doing anything they don't want to do. He's shitting golden turds for them – neutering the EPA, boosting drilling, firing money into the prison-industrial complex, selling weapons, and making immigrants more scared, powerless, and exploitable. That's why they like him.

                    • phillip ure …
                      20 September 2019 at 5:53 am

                      wot mcflock said..

                      (‘gplden turds’ comment..)

                • lprent …
                  19 September 2019 at 9:40 pm

                  As such, I see no evidence that he’s any more than a conservative narcissist playing the radical (to steer the establishment away from global elite control).

                  You missed one crucial word – “incompetent” is also one of his outstanding qualities. There are several others to do with his inability to work with competent people and his attraction for syncopathic vermin.

            • phillip ure 5.1.1.4.1.3
              19 September 2019 at 8:08 pm

              the only thing stopping trump from going ballistic against his own are the checks and balances on u.s. system..

              but i have said before that trump hasn't invaded anyone (yet)..unlike his nobel peace prize winning predecessor – who was wasting libya about now in his presidency..

              • phillip ure …
                20 September 2019 at 6:00 am

                (one for those saying trump is no different to those who came before him..

                it comes from the same source as his addiction-info – from a writer on the apprentice and the celebrity apprentice..(who i follow on twitter..)

                'Trump in reality is far worse than most imagine. He has done horrible things over many decades to many victims. What he is doing to the US will be no different. It’s like living next door to Dahmer and ignoring the smell.'

      • Dennis Frank 5.1.2
        19 September 2019 at 3:06 pm

        Ah, I see my reply went into moderation limbo, probably too much quoting from Wikipedia. This bit from Trotter is worth pointing out: "Tamihere, in blurting “Sieg Heil to that”, wasn’t signalling his membership of some perverse right-wing fraternity. All he was doing was signalling his membership of something much less acceptable – the Maori working-class of West Auckland."

        I suspect JT is actually making a play for rightist voters – if only to demonstrate that their own side are failing to front impressive contenders – but he could easily pull in all those offended by pc-conformism as well. Speaking the lingo of the land does actually produce a resonance of authenticity in folks' minds (not just `the Maori working-class of West Auckland').

        • weka 5.1.2.1
          19 September 2019 at 4:26 pm

          You *have to link if you are cutting and pasting from elsewhere. This has been a long standing policy, and I'm getting sick of reminding people.

          • Dennis Frank 5.1.2.1.1
            19 September 2019 at 5:08 pm

            I was commenting in response to 5.1, where the link was posted…

            • greywarshark 5.1.2.1.1.1
              19 September 2019 at 6:58 pm

              I don't go along with this light attitude to Trump you take DF. Whether he is going to exhibit the right spots to enable the disease to be firmly stated to be fascism or not, what he is doing is serious.

              So not a subject for learned unpicking or idle conjecture.

              • Dennis Frank …
                19 September 2019 at 7:55 pm

                Bush Jr seemed worse. Reagan much worse. Nixon, very much worse. What do you call serious? His attitude on climate change? True, that's a serious problem. Would the USA do any different under a Democrat? Doubt it. History says no.

                • McFlock …
                  19 September 2019 at 8:10 pm

                  History says Obama vetoed the Keystone pipeline, and the orange fuckwit resurrected it.

                  History says Obama entered into the Paris Accord, while fucko mcliesalot is getting out of it.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    19 September 2019 at 8:25 pm

                    And Obama has gone down in history as achieving the largest arms trade deal ever. Just google Obama largest arms trade deal in history, you get plenty of sites reporting his track record. Pretty cool for the dude that won the Nobel Peace Prize.

                    • McFlock …
                      19 September 2019 at 8:50 pm

                      Nice slide from climate change.

                      I googled "largest arms trade deal" and got one signed and largely negotiated by the current regime, much larger than the one proposed by Obama.

                      Play equivalence all you want, in most national interest objectives the current incumbent is one of the worst ever, light years below Obama.

                • greywarshark …
                  19 September 2019 at 8:22 pm

                  I wasn't running a book on Trump v anybody. He is part of a filmset that has strayed from its desert setting with wide open spaces to roam and gone to the more mannered cityscape, and the actor-in-chief hasn't been tamed yet. Quite unsuitable for his task. I wonder when the people will realise that they are losing stuff they never appreciated and pull back?

  6. greywarshark 6
    19 September 2019 at 12:58 pm

    Back to real considerations for a balanced left-wing blog!

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/399107/growers-say-fruit-will-rot-unless-govt-speeds-up-migrant-worker-decision

    Would I be right to say that our Immigration Department is full of white ants that are eating out the heart of NZ enterprise? Its lack of acumen and sensible targetting and systems affecting our businesses – in this case the harvesting of food which must be dealt with in timely fashion which can't wait until some squirts in Immigration and their anally retentive managers and CEO get wise to what we need and the applicants for entry deserve, is affecting our earnings and our standing in the world.

    Immigration and social welfare seem to have captured all that is negative and backward in this country, transmogrified it, and turned it into sausages that pass as 'civil servants' up with the ways of the modern world.

    • Augustus 6.1
      19 September 2019 at 6:17 pm

      I see the white ants among growers, who for decades have been getting cheap imported labour, without ever once even being asked to come up with a plan for harvesting their crops without bending the law. Why is that not part of a resource consent?

      If immigration was anything like social welfare, the growers would be asked to come up with an action plan to end their dependence on the state, even a medium term one would do. But,…, nothing,….ever.

      • greywarshark 6.1.1
        19 September 2019 at 7:10 pm

        Nothing is to be done until it is an emergency. That is how NZ acts and manages isn't it – all else is like communism trying to plan ahead and stifle imagination and opportunities. The freemarket must reign and be bailed out when all the little businessmen and women who imagine themselves gods of business, rather than just beyond being bourgeois, need to have the road swept for them where it has become stony.

        So to protect them and their businesses, they can blackmail government because we already have a slowdown in the economy. We neeNothing is to be done until it is an emergency. That is how NZ acts and manages isn't it – all else is like communism trying to plan ahead and stifle imagination and opportunities. The freemarket must reign and be bailed out when all the little businessmen and women who imagine themselves gods of business, rather than just beyond being bourgeois, need to have the road swept for them where it has become stony.

        So to protect them and their businesses, they can blackmail government because we already have a slowdown in the economy. We need to help them now and do that other thing you mentioned Augustus. What was it? Plan for future requirements, resource management inadequacy, action to improve situation here – train and transport NZs, set them firmly into a seasonal workforce that pays adequately, enables them to keep their earnings and go back on the dole if that is where they are at (they need to be match-fit to do the seasonal work though). And the NZ seasonal workforce would merge with a Pacific Island one with permanent quotas so they can earn money here to enable improvements back home.

        A win-win situation that would be cheered as an adept move better than a sporting maneouvre. And perhaps there should be a sporting fixture, with the visitors, a real friendly with no concussions etc if that is possible, before they go home and they can take half of the proceeds back with them plus goodwill.

        • greywarshark 6.1.1.1
          19 September 2019 at 7:20 pm

          Sorry don't know what I did to muck the above up so much. I hope some point shows up as useful.

      • phillip ure 6.1.2
        20 September 2019 at 5:27 am

        wot augustus said..

  7. Pat 7
    19 September 2019 at 1:04 pm

    "When has that ever happened though? When has there been a sensible, non-emotional discussion about the right numbers of people in this country?"

    https://www.interest.co.nz/opinion/101732/david-hargreaves-looks-new-temporary-work-visa-proposals-latest-broken-election

    Politicians will continue to avoid this conversation like the plague

  8. greywarshark 8
    19 September 2019 at 1:10 pm

    Naggie Barry [sick].

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/399108/labour-mp-ruth-dyson-accepts-apology-from-maggie-barry

    Ms Dyson said Ms Barry's behaviour was particularly stark compared to what was an otherwise improving culture in Parliament.

    Ms Barry is looking stressed. She feels deeply about not getting her own way in the euthanasia debacle which is so important because she knows she is right, and is backed up by a large number of pigeons who can be relied on to keep pecking at the 'No' door. Spoiler – snide remark coming up – the old saying about watching out or the wind will change Ms Barry and your lines and bags will get locked in place, applies.

    • phillip ure 8.1
      19 September 2019 at 3:55 pm

      (someone pointed out/i agreed) – the problem with the pro-euthanasia is that if people want to end their own lives – there are many ways to do this – (and you can't be prosecuted for it..)

      so why must the state be brought into it..?..

      why must the insistance be that someone else do it..?

      ..and with all the inbuilt potential for abuse by greedy relatives/benificiaries of any estate..

      • adam 8.1.1
        19 September 2019 at 4:54 pm

        I'm confused by the pro-euthanasia crowd – I mean if they want to kill themselves – why don't they. No one is stopping them – no one. But like Phillip ure you gotta wonder why they want to bring the state in, and create situations where avarice becomes the new normal.

        You really have to question why the pro-euthanasia crowd think it's OK to undermine the trust in doctors, ignore and put down disabled people's concerns, and generally bash anyone who opposes them.

        But hey, why deal with underlying economic problems in society – when the baby boomers are jumping up and down demanding somthing for themselves again.

        • Psycho Milt 8.1.1.1
          19 September 2019 at 6:43 pm

          I'm confused by the pro-euthanasia crowd – I mean if they want to kill themselves – why don't they. No one is stopping them – no one.

          Say, that's a mighty impressive straw man you have there – did you make it yourself?

          • phillip ure 8.1.1.1.1
            19 September 2019 at 8:18 pm

            have another try..eh..?

            • Psycho Milt 8.1.1.1.1.1
              19 September 2019 at 9:02 pm

              You'd like me to fight your straw man? That would be silly – it's made of straw.

              • adam …
                20 September 2019 at 11:48 pm

                Ahh the great bullshiter rises his head again, the year ban taught you nothing.

                • McFlock …
                  21 September 2019 at 12:05 am

                  Dude, I don't support euthanasia. But at least I can see why in some cases a patient might need someone else to end the patient's life because the patient is unable to do so, or provide expert assistance while the patient does so. I just think that bureaucratising the process will be worse than the current situation. Think about it. Coma, some sort of locked in situation, fearful and anxious dementia, or constant pain and immobility leading to a 99.9% chance of a long but painful death… these are valid scenarios in this days and age that can be planned for in advance with living wills.

                  Just saying they can kill themselves is a mischaracterisation of the problem so gross that, if intentional, I think the description "straw man" could well apply.

                  • adam …
                    21 September 2019 at 3:28 am

                    FFS stop being sanctimonious the pair of you – reread how I said what I said. Let me lay it out for you – I was having a go at pro-euthanasia people for being sanctimonious – too soon?

                    As for sickening, you went to a real sick place with the comment

                    " or constant pain and immobility leading to a 99.9% chance of a long but painful death"

                    Just more of the usual dismissing the concerns of disabled to prove your point. People can live with constant pain, I have for 35 years, and diminishing mobility, so I'm going to die slowly and painfully – news flash – life is hard and dying is awful.

                    Here the thing – bugger this euthanasia bill and all the muppets supporting it, when people are living in cars, kids are getting preventable diseases and the bottom 30% keep getting poorer.

                    They end up being a bunch of sanctimonious prats who have no moral compass.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      21 September 2019 at 6:43 am

                      I did read the comment and quoted the bit I was referring to, which was the same argument as Phillip Ure's: that people supporting voluntary euthanasia legislation are promoting a state-run murder service for people too scared or too lazy to commit suicide. That's a blatant straw man, for the fairly obvious reason that McFlock pointed out above: it's actually for people who are no longer capable of committing suicide.

                      I didn't address your other point, that it's wrong to consider private member's bills before the government's achieved the goals you're interested in, because it's a silly point.

      • greywarshark 8.1.2
        19 September 2019 at 7:26 pm

        Why should the 'greedy relatives etc' be brought into the consideration. It is another matter entirely. The law should be straightforward so that the person leaves clear information about their wishes re property etc. The relatives are always interested in dealing with the artifacts of the person's life and that will be covered under what has been already considered and drawn up and used by people who have gone ahead without waiting for the pathetic bunch of pollies who want to wield power, but make only decisions that give them and their mates a boost in the pocketbook.

        Some of you people who write here are so distant from the reality of what is needed in a well-run polity that you might as well be on your own island or planet.

        • phillip ure 8.1.2.1
          19 September 2019 at 8:17 pm

          'greedy'/impatient relatives is not a bloody minor problem..

          it is the major problem as i see it..

          and you really can't see the potential for wholesale abuse..?

          as killing old people becomes normalised..?

          • The Al1en 8.1.2.1.1
            19 September 2019 at 8:47 pm

            Such ignorance on display 🙄 Have another try

            Eligibility criteria in the bill

            A person would be eligible for assisted dying if they:

            • were aged 18 years or over
            • were a New Zealand citizen or permanent resident
            • suffered from:

              • a terminal illness that was likely to end their life within 6 months or
              • a grievous and irremediable medical condition
            • were in an advanced state of irreversible decline in capability
            • experienced unbearable suffering that could not be relieved in a manner they considered tolerable
            • were able to understand the nature and consequences of assisted dying.
            • phillip ure 8.1.2.1.1.1
              19 September 2019 at 8:57 pm

              i think there should be the option give them heroin…or heroin and cocaine..

              let them enjoy that..

              that will postpone thoughts of ending it all..for most..

              (b.t.w. allen – this is the last time i respond to you if you include yr usual ad hom..mm-kay..?,,try and lift yr game..
              your call…)

              • The Al1en …
                19 September 2019 at 9:05 pm

                I think you shouldn't make ridiculous statements about something you clearly don't have the facts on, so I suggest you read the bill and educate yourself a little.

                I don't care whether you respond, or not, it won't stop me posting. If you want to admit defeat in advance, so be it.
                The bit about ad homs is amusing considering your reply to PM above. Innocent victim you aint. lol

    • Psycho Milt 8.2
      19 September 2019 at 9:06 pm

      A Labour MP says the way National's Maggie Barry shouted at her in Parliament was "totally inappropriate"

      I guess Maggie mistook Ruth Dyson for one of her staff there for a moment…

  9. greywarshark 9
    19 September 2019 at 1:20 pm

    Mindsets – mental health; addictions and triggers for prejudice and negative/positive leitmotifs (clowns and their faces bring strong reactions).

    Alcohol addiction and its insidious deterioration of society from over-use.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018713955/elizabeth-elliott-fetal-alcohol-spectrum-disorders

    and

    Phobias about things such as seeing clowns/clown faces.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2018713961/not-funny-will-it-spawn-more-clown-phobias

  10. phillip ure 10
    19 September 2019 at 4:14 pm

    it is a proven formula..

    if you want to stimulate/'save' an economy – you increase the incomes of the poorest..

    'cos they spend it – it feeds straight back into the economy..

    cd labour go against their neoliberal-incrementalist ethos..?

    (and end/give a serious nudge to poverty at the same time..)

    what is not to love about all that..?

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/09/economist-suggests-literally-giving-money-to-the-poor-to-save-the-economy.html

  12. Eco maori 12
    20 September 2019 at 6:27 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    Its great to see The Rugby World Cup in Asia Japan.

    Eco Maori lives with discrimination every day.

    That's awesome to see hundreds of thousands of tangata in Australia joining The Climate Change strike today Kia Kaha to everyone around the Papatuanuku who joined in the strike.
    That’s the way Andrew thanks for backing our youth to get to vote Ka pai.

    Ka kite Ano.

  13. Eco maori 13
    20 September 2019 at 6:48 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News

    Mullens tangi was today it looks like its a hakare for someone of his great Mana. It takes a great man to rise a good whanau in Te Maori Papatuanuku. He gave me a sore face quite a few times he will be missed in Aotearoa.

    The more PEE getting taken off our streets is great the shit is poisoning Te tangata whenua.

    Smart Environment solutions to monitoring our Wai show great innovation its great to see tangata caring for our Taonga Wai.

    Its excellent to see the Wellington tangata supporting Te Reo Maori place names in Wellington.

    The Rugby World Cup in Asia Japan is starting in a hour Ka pai. I tryed to sort my free subscription for the Rugby World Cup I could not get it sorted I think someone is stuffing with my subscription as my email address would not load up WTF.

    Ka kite Ano

  14. Eco maori 14
    21 September 2019 at 10:05 am

    Looks like the nation has been taken over by national supporters . Its not worth watching since Lisa left Ana to kai

  15. Eco maori 15
    21 September 2019 at 1:33 pm

    Kia Kaha to all the Tangata Protesting to protect OUR FUTURE'S climate. THE NEANDERTHAL WILL learn to listen to our Rangatahi

    Across the globe, millions join biggest climate protest ever

    Young and old alike took to the streets in an estimated 185 countries to demand action

    Greta Thunberg addresses thousands of demonstrators in New York

    Millions of people demonstrated across the world yesterday demanding urgent action to tackle global heating, as they united across timezones and cultures to take part in the biggest climate protest in history.

    In an explosion of the youth movement started by the Swedish school striker Greta Thunberg just over 12 months ago, people protested from the Pacific islands, through Australia, across-south east Asia and Africa into Europe and onwards to the Americas.

    For the first time since the school strikes for climate began last year, young people called on adults to join them – and they were heard. Trade unions representing hundreds of millions of people around the world mobilised in support, employees left their workplaces, doctors and nurses marched and workers at firms like Amazon, Google and Facebook walked out to join the climate strikes.

    Global climate strike: Greta Thunberg and school students lead climate crisis protest – as it happened

    In the estimated 185 countries where demonstrations took place, the protests often had their individual targets; from rising sea levels in the Solomon Islands, toxic waste in South Africa, to air pollution and plastic waste in India and coal expansion in Australia.

    But the overall message was unified – a powerful demand for an urgent step-change in action to cut emissions and stabilise the climate.

    The demonstrations took place on the eve of a UN climate summit, called by the secretary general, António Guterres, to inject urgency into government action to restrict the rise in global temperatures to 1.5C, as agreed under the 2015 Paris agreement.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/21/across-the-globe-millions-join-biggest-climate-protest-ever

  16. Eco maori 16
    21 September 2019 at 6:30 pm

    Kia Ora Newshub.

    I will watch the Rugby on TV 1 .

    That's is. Cool the carved waharoa gifted to Japan for the Rugby World Cup.

    The International Monetary Fund is correct Aotearoa is doing great. Our governments management of our economy is fine.

    Some farmers are going to kick up a stink no matter what Our Coalition government does WHY because they are South Island national supporters.

    Ka pai Te Papatuanuku biggest strike for OUR futures Climate Ka pai yes the pollies will have to bend the knee to the intelligent tangata striking for our future.

    Hue great mahi helping native trees grow in Hinewai. I research that planting native trees they need to planted in a canopy to protect them from frost when they are young. We are going to plant Te Totara trees they grow fast no need to be treated easy to carve. Ka kite Ano

  17. Eco maori 17
    21 September 2019 at 6:51 pm

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News.

    Cool that the Fisheries Minister has promised to look after the far north 90 mile Tangaroa shores environment to Te tangata whenua. I think tangata whenua need to be included in the mahi and wealth of the industry shear the lollies.

    That's is not on its a breach of human rights locking 1200 people who have not been charged with a crime.

    Using tangata whenua art to help heal tangata with mental health issues is a good idea Ka pai.

    I… Henry we only get one body so it's correct that you took time off to let your injuries heal Kia Kaha.

    Ka kite Ano

  19. Eco maori 19
    23 September 2019 at 8:24 am

    Kia Ora The Am Show.

    I think it's great that Soap for Society Organisations are asking for sanitary products donations so they can give them to people who can not afford them

    My alarm didn't go for the Allblack delayed game and I miss the 3 pm replay We were moderafiying our Wind Turbine.

    That's is a good way to show how much Papatuanuku Warming is a Reality. The Swiss having A Tangi for their taonga Glacier Poziol it has lost 80 % of its mass

    .Spark did its best to prove A good service. Its not there Fault that companies in other Countries dropped the BALL. Some people will use anything for leverage. This is all the more reasons to roll out 5 G Services.

    Tangata Mental health wellbeing is a big thing as not everyone can figure out weather they have a problem or not. I think some educational program should be interduced to our tamariki about how their thought process actually works. I say the SURGE in Aotearoa mental health problems and rising suercide rates can be directly linked to A surge in PEE use over the last 20 years

    Kume Amnesty International is a great organisation highlighting the problems around Papatuanuku the biggest problem we are going to face Human Caused Climate change.

    The difference between Aotearoa is we have A Coalition Government that knows Climate change is Reality not like some pollies denies Global warming trying to gain putea. Kia Kaha to all the Tangata strikeing for Our future climate.

    Aotearoa is a great position to mitergate climate change. We have a climate that has the fastest tree growth in the world. We have 80 % renewable energy already we have the best clean Sky for Solar power we actually get 20 % more power out of Solar than the manufacturer Stats. We have one of the Tawhirimate places on Papatuanuku great for Wind Turbine.We have great Geothermal resources that can provide back up power for Green Energy as well A Hydro power that can be used as back up power for Green Energy. The only reason why our Emissions have climb is because we have just kicked out a carbon pro Government that did everything to boost our carbon use. Big moterways canning Rail canning planned Wind turbine construction . Changing laws to alow the Cutting down of heaps of trees. ECT.

    Ka kite Ano