Open mike 20/11/2024

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 20th, 2024 - 52 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

52 comments on “Open mike 20/11/2024 ”

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  1. Tony Veitch 1
    20 November 2024 at 8:03 am

    Make sure you all make a submission to the select committee on Seymour's divisive bill!

    But, keep it simple and less than 1 page – remember right wing politicians are not very bright and don't have long attention spells.

    And don't use swear words – the snowflakes have fragile egos!

    BUT DO MAKE A SUBMISSION!

    Off to prepare my submission now!

    • Kay 1.2
      20 November 2024 at 10:22 am

      So we can't call David a sad little man who craves attention in our submissions? sad

      • Tony Veitch 1.2.1
        20 November 2024 at 11:07 am

        Can we tell the truth? It's worth a try!

        • Tiger Mountain 1.2.1.1
          20 November 2024 at 11:12 am

          Well, Jacinda Ardern termed him an “arrogant prick”–her only mistake was apologising!

        • Kay 1.2.1.2
          20 November 2024 at 11:26 am

          Much as I'd like to submit, I try and keep a very low profile around RW governments. I don't in the least trust them that there won't be some sort of payback, like a 'random' audit from Winz. I wish I was just being paranoid, but they have form.

      • Belladonna 1.2.2
        20 November 2024 at 11:22 am

        Well, you can. But it will probably result in your submission being returned to you, and not considered. A waste of everyone's time.

        Committees do not have to accept every submission sent to them. Committees can return a submission that is not relevant, is offensive, is possibly defamatory, or is suppressed by an order of a New Zealand Court.

        https://www.parliament.nz/media/6340/guide-to-writing-a-submission.pdf

        • lprent 1.2.2.1
          20 November 2024 at 11:40 am

          The not relevant submission is why I am not bothering to put one in.

          For instance based on past experience, I’d guess that even if I left out the snide side-commentary of my post today and only concentrated on the constitutional issue – I’d absolutely bet that there is zero hope of it being read by the select committee members.

          It becomes real guess work about what the committee handler thinks is ‘relevant’. Since the submissions that are not accepted never seem to have any explanation nor feedback, it just becomes a case of gambling on who sees the submission. Not to mention that ‘can return’ has meant will never return for decades.

          At least if I put it up on this site, it will be read, and probably by people on or talking to the select committee.

          • Belladonna 1.2.2.1.1
            20 November 2024 at 2:06 pm

            I, too, question how useful making SC a submission is.
            But, if you're going to go through the exercise, then there is absolutely no point in doing so, if you can't follow the directions.

            NB: 'you' in the above comment is generic, not specific. I'm quite sure that you could follow the directions if you wanted to make a submission.

            • Dennis Frank 1.2.2.1.1.1
              20 November 2024 at 3:49 pm

              I'm with both of you, but I have wondered if I ought to. Decision depends on the credibility of the process, which as LPrent points out, hinges on a decision by a middleman. When subjective personal opinion is used to decide whether to pass on a submission to the sub-committee or not, it has zero value to users. I'm tempted to write a critique, but am reluctant to waste valuable time on any establishment bullshit scheme, so I probably won't bother.

          • Craig H 1.2.2.1.2
            20 November 2024 at 5:33 pm

            Generally, written submissions are made public, so it might be worth it for the sake of potentially influencing some random voter in the future.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2.2.2
          20 November 2024 at 11:59 am

          So we can't call David [Seymour] a sad little man who craves attention…

          A waste of everyone's time.

          Otoh, "Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time." smiley

          In light of all this, we are led to exclaim that the human brain is not merely a pearl of great price: It is a pearl without price, for there is no amount of wealth, no human intelligence, or ingenuity that can replace or restore the mind once it has been destroyed or seriously damaged. And against this background, is it not strange that so little careful attention is given to the maintenance, the cultivation, and the use of the human brain?

          https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/francis-m-gibbons/one-many/

          • Belladonna 1.2.2.2.1
            20 November 2024 at 2:04 pm

            Well if you enjoy writing submissions to select committee hearings, knowing that they will be discarded (because you've been 'abusive' of an MP) – then that is entirely up to you.
            The rest of us would, no doubt, prefer that the SC actually read what we had to say.

            Perhaps you could shortcut the process, and write your submission and then throw it in the rubbish bin. Then you get maximum enjoyment, without wasting anyone else's time.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2.2.2.1.1
              20 November 2024 at 2:55 pm

              Let’s not play into Seymour’s hands [20 Nov 2024]
              The message against the coalition Treaty Principles Bill should be simple: the Treaty protects all New Zealanders from corporate exploitation

              As noted by the editorial writer Rupert O’Brien, “The Treaty principles have proved a significant roadblock to both corporatisation and privatisation in the past and present a clear threat to any plans of future development of public assets to the private sector. This effect is likely one of the key, although unstated, reasons for the push to return Te Tiriti to its erstwhile status as a simple nullity.”

              I suggest this is the message we should be hammering home in Oppositional arguments to the bill. As part of the messaging, we should make clear the ties that Seymour and his backers have to corporate interests, both domestic and international and their plans to appropriate and exploit natural and public resources for private enrichment.
              …
              This bill is about the people (tangata whenua and tangata tiriti) vs corporate profits.

              So we can't call David [Seymour] a sad little man who craves attention…

              Well if you enjoy writing submissions to select committee hearings, knowing that they will be discarded (because you've been 'abusive' of an MP) – then that is entirely up to you.

              Very magnanimous, thanks B. Don't recall ever being "'abusive' of an MP" in my submissions to SC hearings, but there's a first time for everything.

              The rest of us would, no doubt, prefer that the SC actually read what we had to say.

              Doubtless "the rest of us" would smiley

              Perhaps you could shortcut the process, and write your submission and then throw it in the rubbish bin. Then you get maximum enjoyment, without wasting anyone else's time.

              Thanks again B – a pretty dismal suggestion, imho, but it’s been considered.

    • SPC 1.3
      20 November 2024 at 10:32 am

      Given most of the right wing politicians also oppose Seymour's bill, part of the page should be to explain that the TOW and WT (establihsed 1975) is part of our societal heritage.

      Thus part of the constitution within parliament legacy here, as per its development here.

      Any change to that, would require the revolutionary move to the constitution of a republic.

    • Anne 1.4
      20 November 2024 at 10:46 am

      Hi Tony,

      Having never made a submission before, I need a bit of guidance. I plan to make a short submission by post because I think most people still assimilate the written word on paper better than the electronic version. Us oldies do anyway.

      I don't understand what the following words mean in the "How to" instructions:

      • Submissions are publicly released and published to the Parliament website. Only your name or organisation’s name is required on a submission. Please keep your contact details separate, as if they are included on the submission they will become publicly available when the submission is released.

      I don't care whether my name becomes publicly available or not but does this mean I have a separate bit of paper for the actual submission attached to the letter with my contact details etc?

      • Tony Veitch 1.4.1
        20 November 2024 at 11:06 am

        I really can't advise you, Anne. I made my submission on the Parliamentary website, which Incognito linked to above. Pretty easy and straight forward.

      • Incognito 1.4.2
        20 November 2024 at 11:17 am

        If you are unable to use our online portal, please provide your contact details on a separate piece of paper, along with your submission.

        https://www.parliament.nz/media/6340/guide-to-writing-a-submission.pdf

        • Anne 1.4.2.1
          20 November 2024 at 11:45 am

          Thanks Incognito. Looks like using the 'online portal' is simpler and easier. This oldie will have to reassess her outdated habits. 😉

          My personal view is that Seymour's motivation is malicious in intent and designed to create a NZ State that is vulnerable to wealthy individuals both on-shore and off-shore [I refer to Atlas of course] manipulating the fabric of NZ society and our court systems – neither of which are in the interest of this country or it's citizens.

          He is using the Treaty of Waitangi Bill as the vehicle through which he can ultimately achieve his aim.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 1.4.2.1.1
            20 November 2024 at 12:25 pm

            My personal view is that Seymour's motivation is malicious in intent and designed to create a NZ State that is vulnerable to wealthy individuals both on-shore and off-shore [I refer to Atlas of course] manipulating the fabric of NZ society and our court systems…

            yes An astute view, Anne, and you're not alone.

            Nicky Hager: Beware the smooth talker with a forked tongue
            David Seymour and Act know exactly what they’re doing.
            …
            Act billboards say End Division by Race, but it is actually
            more like Defend Division by Wealth.
            …
            But Act is the worst. It’s not just doing cynical three-yearly vote-chasing like National and New Zealand First.

            • Anne 1.4.2.1.1.1
              20 November 2024 at 12:48 pm

              Thanks DMK. Interesting my conclusion is similar to Nicky Hager. Despite all the crap fling at him over the years Hager as never been proved wrong about any of his prognostications.

  2. Ad 2
    20 November 2024 at 9:21 am

    This lively and fun post on roadspace in urban centres – particularly relevant to Auckland but also to Hamilton, Tauranga, Wellington, and certainly recent changes to Dunedin and Invercargill – shows with some rgeat analogies how roadspace is constantly preferred for cars and not people.

    https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2024/11/20/transport-modelling-is-an-illusion/

    • tWig 2.1
      20 November 2024 at 9:48 am

      Wales recently introduced a 40 kmp speed limit in built-up areas. After a year, the economic and road toll data shows statstically significant savings in both.

      "Compared with the same period the year before, the number of people killed on the affected roads is down 35%, serious injuries are down 14.2% and slight injuries 31%…The Department for Transport estimates that the total societal cost of someone being killed on the road is just over £2.4m. A serious injury is £271,000. Even a “slight” injury is nearly £21,000. "

      And guess what: a lot of the ‘outrage’ against the change was manufactured by a few Tory councillors, some of whom were officially supportive of the change in the Sennedd.

      Points again to the dangerous anonimity of social media. It’s a weird mashup of public and private.

      • ianmac 2.1.1
        20 November 2024 at 12:17 pm

        Thanks tWig. Wonder if Brown could read it, understand it, and act on it. Sorry. Just a fantasy.

        • Anne 2.1.1.1
          20 November 2024 at 4:04 pm

          No crime in dreaming. smiley

        • Belladonna 2.1.1.2
          21 November 2024 at 2:26 pm

          Given that the endless road works under AT, which have infested my area of Auckland for the last several years, mean that it's almost impossible to drive above 40 k/hr (and usually substantially below that speed) – we should already be seeing the drops in accidents/injuries.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 2.1.1.3
          21 November 2024 at 3:04 pm

          Wonder if Brown could read it, understand it, and act on it.

          Simeon 'the faster you go, the bigger the buzz' Brown? "Just a fantasy" is right.

          Never mind safety, think of the costs – and the inconvenience!
          Simeon is all about seeking the right 'balance' of safety and costs.

          Cost of road cones, temporary speed limits 'eyewatering' – Transport Minister [20 Nov 2024]
          "This new approach shifts away from the blanket use of road cones and temporary speed limit restrictions and towards a risk-based approach which seeks to balance the need to ensure road workers are kept safe, while keeping costs under control."

          The need for speed: What Cabinet knew when it raised speed limits
          [8 Nov 2024]
          When Cabinet agreed in September to raise speed limits on the roads, it knew this would cause more deaths and serious injuries.

          Brown has justified the higher speed limits on two grounds. The first is efficiency: he said they will “enable Kiwis to get to where they want to go quickly and safely” and help “unlock economic growth and productivity”.

          But Cabinet has not released any evidence to support this claim. Nor will the minister confirm if any exists.

          Nor did Cabinet release any information on the cost of having a higher number of serious crashes. The minister also declined to answer questions about this.

  3. Dennis Frank 3
    20 November 2024 at 9:51 am

    The weakness of Seymour's political position becomes apparent when you realise he's touting a solution to a non-apparent problem. Naivety, perhaps, or serving the Atlas globalist agenda, but he is unlikely to get traction unless the problem is obvious.

    His personal problem can be specified thus: the principles of te tiriti have been identified by the judiciary and enacted in law to the extent that several decades of legal tradition have been established – yet he hasn't explained why he believes they are wrong.

    Bizarre, but it's even worse for him than that: he hasn't even told the public or media that he disagrees with this tradition, as far as I can tell. Too scared, I suppose, but honesty is the best policy when dealing with matters of principle. So he's using a covert strategy. Luxon the wimp agreed to his charade, so he gets optimal publicity.

    Presenting his personal set of treaty principles only works in practice if they seem better than those of the judiciary. They don't. Therefore folks have no incentive to support them – unless they don't like the judiciary principles. For anyone to oppose the judiciary on this basis, intellectual work is necessary – and kiwis are hopelessly non-intellectual.

  4. SPC 4
    20 November 2024 at 10:40 am

    As the year ends, let us remember the 100 hundred years of Four in a Square.

    It began 4 July 1924, when a square was drawn around the '4' in the calendar by local grocer and Four Square founder, J Heaton Barker.

    It led to a $4B supermarket business.

    • SPC 4.1
      20 November 2024 at 12:38 pm

      Given the 4 July USA is getting a Project 2025 makeover.

      A quick look at the born again brand movement in that country.

      They first called call them "awakenings". Being one of the woke (not awakening from the field of dreams in one's own home) in a church.

      Joseph Smith claiming to be re-founding the early church because "two beings came to earth" to tell him to. They await one of the two making a third visit to the New World to go to their temple.

      Then came the William Miller false prophecy of 1844. This led to the Millerites, particularly the Christian Connexion movement. One of that group, Frederick Wheeler of Washington New Hampshire, was convinced to become sabbath day keeping. Thus a "seventh day adventist church".

      Then came Charles Russell (who claimed to be the recipient of a visit by an invisible Jesus) and his false prophecy of a 1914 advent.

      This only resulted in the Assembly of God (AOG, not AOC though many Latinos have fallen for this cult) and a war. They were the "prosperity religion" branch of adventism. The pentecostal movement were originally known for holiness, thus as "holy rollers".

      The most well known pentecostal from Canada was probably Aimee Semple McPherson, a formed AOG pastor who founded the Foursquare gospel church. In 1923 …

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foursquare_Church

      Then came the Toronto blessing (after an awakening in January 1994 at the Vineyard Church at the city airport).

      In 1993 Toronto was awarded the 28th NBA franchise, the name raptor/airport/rapture was chosen for it on May 15 (Nakba) 1994.

      The local Bible College of New Zealand had a strong focus on the Toronto blessings in its Reality Magazine, which was on many a campus in the 1990's.

      The Toronto blessing, was criticised for being a new age kundalini awakening (because people would go to yoga mat ground and move there) and roar like lions.

      Tall blacks, the Leonard prophecy – NBA champions 2019.

      Empires rise and fall. Republics fall to conquest.

      The Toronto Airport blessing was apparently the filling up of the body with sound vibrations to simulate the body as a wine cup, that could be filled up and drunk out of.

      A form of sound well, where herds of voices – called a conspiracy of ravens or murder of crows that are supposed to witness someone as being born again.

      In religious symbolism this is of the Greek and Latin words for …

      One group on the other coast in Pasadena, Che Ahn of Harvest International Ministries (HIM) attended services at Vineyard. He held nightly services for 3 years afterwards and now is fully engaged in the Pasadena community as owner of the Ambassador Auditorium (DNA evidence has destroyed the prophecy of the white race Israeli church formerly based there).

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Blessing

      DAARP tech can cause the sound vibrations – "old crows" have a techie job using it.

      The Speaking Truth about White Race Nation power channel.

      • SPC 4.1.1
        20 November 2024 at 1:02 pm

        From Greco-Roman culture …

        AI sourced

        The word "draconian" comes from the name of Draco, a 7th-century B.C. Athenian legislator who created a harsh written code of law

        Draco's code was intended to clarify existing laws, but it became memorable for its severity. The code made it so that even minor offenses were punishable by death, and failure to pay debts could result in slavery.

        The Latin word Draco means "dragon" or "serpent":

        • Constellation

          The constellation Draco is located in the northern sky, between the Big Dipper and Little Dipper. It's circumpolar, meaning it's near the north celestial pole and is visible at all times of the year in the Northern Hemisphere. The Draconid meteor shower is named after the constellation because the meteors appear to come from the direction of Draco

        • In one of the most famous Greek myths, Draco represents Ladon, the hundred-eyed dragon that guarded the golden apples of the Hesperides

        • The eleventh of The Twelve Labors of Heracles was to steal the golden apples. Hercules needed to complete these labors to be forgiven for past's crimes and to gain immortality.
        • In Rome and the modern West, he is known as Hercules, with whom the later Roman emperors, in particular Commodus and Maximian, often identified themselves.

        Hercules was some sort of alpha male Olympian order type.

        Commodus was assassinated by the wrestler Narcissus in 192CE.

        And so the Crowe came for him.

        As will all indigenous peoples and nations against those who would rule over them.

        https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/apples.html

        • SPC 4.1.1.1
          20 November 2024 at 1:23 pm

          Such is the Game of Thrones in the north, and the so called Atlas (like a so called Commodus Hercules) Network shall not prevail.

          The Rimmer, ventriloquist, reminds one of Joffrey.

          After 1 minute.

          Jeff, or Geoffrey – ancestor of the Kings of England.

        • Jenny 4.1.1.2
          20 November 2024 at 3:56 pm

          This is what democracy looks like.

          Even an absolute dictator like Commodus couldn't defy the will of the crowd.

          Numbers count.

  5. Muttonbird 5
    20 November 2024 at 11:55 am

    I see Musk dropped his super heavy penis booster in the ocean and it exploded. Trump was watching live, in person:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/360493267/spacex-super-heavy-starship-booster-explodes

  6. SPC 6
    20 November 2024 at 3:13 pm

    One part of the MSM might/will be of some use here.

    Someone will have to (and is able to) staple a newspaper item to their birth certificate for life, rather than mislead others with the official truth of the state bureaucracy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office

    • Mike the Lefty 7.1
      20 November 2024 at 6:17 pm

      When it comes to weasel words or just plain b..s you can't beat Putin.

      Only Putin could start a war and then claim the country he was invading was escalating the conflict by defending itself.

      • mikesh 7.1.1
        20 November 2024 at 7:48 pm

        The escalation is coming from Uncle Sam. He is only interested in getting at Russia, using Ukrainians as "cannon fodder". And of course the Ukranians have done 'im proud; but there you go

        Slimy Joe must getting desperate – obviously seeing his Ukrainian project coming to nought, and himself about to become unable to contol events there any longer, is now hastening to authorize events which may lead to a nuclear war.

        • tWig 7.1.1.1
          20 November 2024 at 9:36 pm

          Putin's specious argument says: any nuclear power attacking another using conventional weapons is carrying out a defacto 1st strike nuclear attack.

          By that logic, Iran should feel free to nuke Israel immediately, and vice-versa. What an illogical veneer to validate a Putin first-strike nuclear attack.

          A conventional missile is actually a nuclear warhead. Black is white.

          I do think I generally agree that with the idea arming a third nation in a proxy war should carry the weight of a direct attack.

          Might cut down on the number of localised conflicts.

          • Nic the NZer 7.1.1.1.1
            20 November 2024 at 9:46 pm

            This isn't a logic puzzle. JFK and Kruschev both received intel in the 1960s that a full scale nuclear war would kill around 1/3 of the global population. In fact if only one side struck with no retaliation then the resulting nuclear winter would have significant blowback.

          • mikesh 7.1.1.1.2
            21 November 2024 at 8:33 am

            Putin's specious argument says: any nuclear power attacking another using conventional weapons is carrying out a defacto 1st strike nuclear attack.

            He didn't actually make that argument. He passed legislation allowing him to use nuclear weapons in the event of Russia undergoing a missile attack, hoping, I think, that this would suffice to deter such an attack. Which is not to say that wouldn't do it if pushed.

            By that logic, Iran should feel free to nuke Israel immediately, and vice-versa. What an illogical veneer to validate a Putin first-strike nuclear attack.

            By what logic? I think it would depend on context.

      • Nic the NZer 7.1.2
        20 November 2024 at 8:01 pm

        Since were only risking the one planet in the process it will definitely be most important to test out if this is a real red line, or merely an idle threat.

        I mean some people have suggested Kennedy was crazy taking the risk to push the USSR to back down in public while the US withdrew its arsenal in private, and just look how that worked out.

    • joe90 7.2
      20 November 2024 at 9:40 pm

      In June 2022 Poots threatened to strike targets in the West if longer range weapons were supplied to Ukraine. A few days the first high mobility rocketry arrived in Ukraine. Poots did nothing.

      In April 2023 Poots warned that Western nations would be considered a party to the conflict if longer-range weapons were donated to Ukraine. Two months later the UK supplied long-range weapons to Ukraine. Poots did nothing.

      In September 2023 Russia warned nuclear war if UK supplied cruise missiles hit Russian Territory. The same month UK cruise missiles were used against Russia's Black Sea fleet. Poots did nothing.

      In October 2023 Poots told the US that supplying more missile systems to Ukraine was a mistake and promised to retaliate with hyper-sonic missiles. Within weeks the US supplied more missile systems. Poots did nothing.

      In May 2024 Russia again warned of nuclear Armageddon if Western weapons were used to strike Russian territory. The US allowed missiles to be used as counter-fire on weapons in Russian territory. Poots did nothing.

      In August and September this year Russia rattled the nuclear saber. Poots did nothing.

      And in November, more weasel words.

      /

      • mikesh 7.2.1
        21 November 2024 at 8:47 am

        If the aforesaid weapons were not actually used then the question arises: who was attempting to bluff whom? But Biden, I think, is seeing his time to act running out so he has now given Zelenskii premission to use the weapons in the hope of bringing the conflict to a (fiery) conclusion. I think he would like to go down in history as the guy who put the final nail in Russia's coffin.

  8. Mike the Lefty 8
    20 November 2024 at 6:12 pm

    Another mill closure – the paper making plant at Kinleith.

    This CoC government's handling of the economy is so great that everyone is bailing out.

    But those tossers don't give a f….

    As long as they can build their roads it matters not.

    • Muttonbird 8.1
      20 November 2024 at 10:02 pm

      Yep, while paper use is inevitably reducing there should be a wider plan about how to manage this in a NZ context so we don't end up having to import 100000 pallets of A4 per year for the next 100 years.

      But these idiots in charge right now have zero smarts about how to plan.

      Also, massive job losses in the regions, but Winston Peters could not give two fucks about that.