Open Mike 23/10/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 23rd, 2018 - 221 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike

221 comments on “Open Mike 23/10/2018 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. Dennis Frank 1
    23 October 2018 at 6:24 am

    AM Show news @ 6am: JLR was sectioned. Confirmed that he was taken against his will. Still no report of who called the police in. Tacit denial from the media of our right to know this. Why don’t they just spit the dummy and admit it?

    • AsleepWhileWalking 1.1
      23 October 2018 at 6:34 am

      Well it wasn’t his family according to WO who had to tell the wife what had happened.

    • Ed 1.2
      23 October 2018 at 6:37 am

      Until we know who called the police and whether the tapes still exist, people have every right to be suspicious about the timing, convenience and circumstances of JLR’s removal from the public eye.

      We question the Saudis when a journalist who challenges the regime disappears.

      Is there a reason we can’t ask questions when an MP who was challenging the establishment here is silenced and removed from sight?

      • James 1.2.1
        23 October 2018 at 8:13 am

        We question the Nats – that’s ok by Ed

        We question the saudis – that’s ok by Ed

        We question the Russians – nope nope nope nope.

      • SaveNZ 1.2.2
        23 October 2018 at 9:04 am

        + 1 Ed, Ross releases taped revelations that rock our political establishment when it is found you buy your way in, and then Ross is suddenly sectioned under the mental health act, and NOT by anybody close to him??? You’d be a real sheeple if you thought ok now, lets just think that all is well in politics in NZ and it’s just a little coincidence.

        One of the many reasons Labour and Greens lost the election 6 years ago was that when dirty politics came out, they appeared to do nothing, and did not actively try to restore and investigate and criminalise the breaches of justice in NZ.

        They were in opposition then, but now they are not.

        What are they doing? Sitting on their hands and doing nothing while our political systems burns???

      • McFlock 1.2.3
        23 October 2018 at 10:18 am

        Because this isn’t Saudi Arabia.

        As corruption goes, we get one or two departments covering their arses on an issue. People selling information to private investigators off their own bat.

        Multiple organisations and people risking (rather than protecting) their careers to save the opposition party from a scandal? That’s an order of magnitude less likely.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury 1.2.3.1
          23 October 2018 at 10:29 am

          Yeah but if you really hate national and squint really hard, you can see there may be a conspiracy

        • KJT 1.2.3.2
          23 October 2018 at 10:33 am

          Already seen the police raiding the houses of people, at the behast of National.

          Already happened.

          • McFlock 1.2.3.2.1
            23 October 2018 at 2:27 pm

            When they were in government, when there were ostensibly crimes to investigate, when they needed to cover the government’s arse (departments, not dunnokeyo), and multiple clinicians weren’t part of the conspiracy.

        • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2.3.3
          23 October 2018 at 11:08 am

          “That’s an order of magnitude less likely.”

          So only a one-in-ten chance (by your reckons) that corruption is afoot; phew!

          Trying to keep calm, but the “Carry on, nothing to see here” message, espoused by unbiased panelist paragons such as Conor English, is unsettling. Because clearly there is something to see here (and I’m not talking about JLR’s mental health, which comments on this site have persuaded me is matter between him and health professionals.)

          While we wait to see, many will naturally be wondering what (if anything) authorities may eventually choose to tell us regarding the corrupt dealings of NZ politicians. I fear that all political parties may be circling their wagons.

          • McFlock 1.2.3.3.1
            23 October 2018 at 11:13 am

            that’s only 1 in 10 if you think that every single department in every instance is breaking the law to protect its own arse, and every person trusted with personal information will sell it to the first PI who comes asking.

            I’d put it more as 0.001 to 0.0001. No point getting your knickers in a twist until Mallard says JLR has been committed but Mallard has been denied access to him.

            • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2.3.3.1.1
              23 October 2018 at 11:47 am

              Thanks for that explanation – was the “No point getting your knickers in a twist” intended as a put-down, or are you just playing?

              JLR is the most recent individual attempting to shed some light on political corruption in NZ, the difference being that he is a political insider.

              I doubt that his efforts will result in any significant decrease in corrupt political practices – BSU.

              • McFlock …
                23 October 2018 at 12:14 pm

                Not really either. Agitation at this point is pretty pointless and unwarranted.

                • Drowsy M. Kram …
                  23 October 2018 at 12:34 pm

                  Thanks, prefer ‘agitation’ to “getting your knickers in a twist”, and ‘unsettled’ over both – but each to their own.

                  Why do some events unsettled (some of) us? Don’t worry, be happy.

                  • McFlock …
                    23 October 2018 at 2:35 pm

                    Call me high-threshold, but I tend to not get too worried at sudden noises (although it has happened once or twice, lol).

                    What I don’t understand is why some people want to fill a void with the worst-imaginable scenario, rather than simply waiting to see if any key indications occur

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      23 October 2018 at 8:55 pm

                      I think I get that. There’s a continuum of thresholds for sudden/loud/annoying ‘noises’, as in this exchange:

                      “Relax, what’s the worst that can happen?”

                      “Exactly, what’s the worst that can happen!”

                      I don’t understand why this continuum exists either (although there must be theories), and can only observe that “we’re all different”.

                      My chief concern is the extent of secret buying and selling of political influence and favours in NZ.

                      JLR seemed able and prepared to shed some light on political corruption from the inside. Right now he is unable to do so, and I doubt that particular light will shine again.

                      Which is fair enough; that’s probably the best course of action for JLR. But (IMO), it’s the worst possible outcome for the NZ public.

                    • McFlock …
                      23 October 2018 at 9:12 pm

                      He shed enough light for folks to start digging. Read somewhere today that it’s been confirmed the donor’s mate is in line for the candidate camp they talked about over the phone.

                    • Drowsy M. Kram …
                      23 October 2018 at 9:20 pm

                      “He shed enough light for folks to start digging.”

                      Hope the folks have headlamps – fingers crossed!

            • Draco T Bastard 1.2.3.3.1.2
              23 October 2018 at 2:30 pm

              I personally think that all corruption is a problem and needs to be dealt with.

              BTW: 0.0001 of ~ 3 million is 300 corrupt people in the workforce which is a load of bollocks really. I think you’ll find that it’s much higher than that as pretty much all business people in this country happen to be corrupt. Just check out all the ‘cash’ jobs that people do.

              • McFlock …
                23 October 2018 at 2:38 pm

                Meh. Depends on whether you’re talking small cash jobs or violating several sections of the health act, I guess.

                W&I leak a fair bit, but StatsNZ has some pretty robust controls in place.

            • SaveNZ 1.2.3.3.1.3
              23 October 2018 at 4:28 pm

              From Martin Matthews/Auditor-General, who hired Joanne Harrison who then went on to commit nearly a million dollars of fraud under his nose…. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/boss-hired-ministry-transport-726-000-fraudster-not-embarrassed to the auditor-general failing to notice Kairpara council was entering into a wastewater scheme nearly making it bankrupt and increasing rates 25% … Louise Nicholas cases, Roastbusters.. so many cases over the years about corruption, stupidity, asleep at the wheel and despicable crimes from officials in power in NZ… and many of them seemingly not being bought to justice…

              • McFlock …
                23 October 2018 at 4:45 pm

                There’s a reason they make the news, rather than being stuck alongside drink-drivers and common assaults.

                How many cases involved serious breaches by multiple organisations – as in active misconduct rather than just failure in detection?

        • Gabby 1.2.3.4
          23 October 2018 at 12:40 pm

          By multiple organisations you mean one or two ‘mates’ who know how to use process to their personal advantage right?/

      • reason 1.2.4
        23 October 2018 at 10:22 pm

        To right Ed ….. Here’s what Nicky Hager revealed about Nationals dodgy fundraising …. back in the Brash hollow days

        ““The high value donars gave their donations to trusts, which passed it on anonymously to the party. Over one and a half million was to come in via the Waitemata & Ruahine trusts. Both of PO. Box 2244 Auckland”……” In public senior party mp’s and officials denied knowing the identity of donars, but privately they knew perfectly well who was writing the cheques”…….

        The donars were invited to private fundraising dinners….the media was excluded …… a table cost $5000 the tobacco industry brought 2* ………..Don Brash or John Key made the speeches.”

        *coincidentally the number of tobacco industry mp’s the nacts had in parliament …. until Todd Barclay started breaking the law ….. and had to leave in a big hush job of a coverup.

        At the end Barclays mental health had him too depressed to turn up for work at parliament in his last couple of months …. he took the pay though ….and was seen trying to drown his sorrows in pubs with the unearned cash.

    • Incognito 1.3
      23 October 2018 at 7:40 am

      Confirmed that he was taken against his will.

      Confirmed by who? Who or what is the source for this? Another news outlet? WO? KDC?

      Are we just going around in circles and is MSM echoing as usual.

    • JohnSelway 1.4
      23 October 2018 at 9:01 am

      You dont have the right to know about someone’s medical situation.

      It doesn’t matter who it is.

      • veutoviper 1.4.1
        23 October 2018 at 10:47 am

        Agreed, but we just have to accept that some people have very selective hearing – and not let them and this get to us.

        • McFlock 1.4.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 10:57 am

          It is a point worth being reminded of constantly, though.

          Otherwise folks might think that the shrill demands for private information are based on a genuine procedural irregularity.

          If the search engine worked, it would be funny to see what some current commenters thought of Paula Bennett releasing beneficiaries’ private information.

          • veutoviper 1.4.1.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 12:54 pm

            Absolutely agree and I fully support John Selway in his points re the privacy rights and principles on people’s medical information.

            I must say that I do miss the search engine here but maybe one day …

            • JohnSelway 1.4.1.1.1.1
              23 October 2018 at 1:00 pm

              Yeah the search function being gone is a bit of a bastard really.

              But anyway – it seems everyone here clamoring to know the specifics about Ross’s mental health are all doing so to satisfy some dark need of their own rather than because they ‘care’.

              Ross will talk when Ross wants to talk and if he wants to talk. That’s that.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.1
      23 October 2018 at 10:52 am

      Clients agree on the repayment amounts at the time the loan is given

      That indicates that they have a choice which, of course, they don’t.

      National’s social development spokeswoman Louise Upston said encouraging people to make use of benefit advances was trapping people into debt

      This is, of course, a direct result of National’s own polices from their last time in government.

  3. Ed 3
    23 October 2018 at 6:32 am

    The Herald has found a few stories more important than the JLR crisis in its online news.
    Sam Whitelock is going to Japan,Megan is sporting Karen Walker sunglasses among the eight tales deemed to go higher up in their news feed.
    The editors are following their owners’ orders very well.

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    23 October 2018 at 6:33 am

    “In an era of fake news and partisanship, society needs critical thinkers more than ever. So why are students increasingly turning away from the humanities?” Kate Newton examines this emerging issue in depth: https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/in-depth/368436/universities-face-a-crisis-of-the-humanities

    “Drastic though it was, the death of art history at the University of Otago was merely the latest in a series of staffing and programme cuts in arts and humanities faculties at universities around New Zealand. Otago cut 16 jobs from its humanities division in 2016, the University of Waikato cut 17 humanities and social sciences teaching roles in 2017, and AUT announced in August this year it planned to cut up to 40 full-time positions from its Society and Culture faculty. The University of Auckland will cut five staff from its School of Language, Linguistics and Culture and ignored furious protests earlier this year when it decided to close three specialist arts libraries.”

    “The trend is not isolated to New Zealand: US magazine The Atlantic recently concluded that, after decades of premature predictions, maybe this time a crisis in the humanities could be for real.”

    “Certainly in New Zealand, the largest, long-established humanities subjects have suffered steep falls in student numbers. At undergraduate level, literature students fell by a quarter over the past decade. Foreign language departments lost 30 percent of their students. History student numbers declined by 16 percent, and art history and religious studies numbers nearly halved. The patterns are similar at postgraduate levels. All up, those five subjects alone lost nearly 4000 bachelor and postgraduate students between 2008 and 2017.”

    “There were 1000 fewer humanities students enrolled in 2017 than in 2008, despite an increase of almost 40,000 students across all degrees and subjects.”

    • Dennis Frank 4.1
      23 October 2018 at 6:38 am

      She quotes an academic: “society needs people asking “why” more than ever right now. “We are in the era of fake news … That’s why it’s absolutely crucial to be giving people those educations that enable them to perform that type of critical thinking that involves not taking something at face value – so thinking about what the motivations for presenting it in a particular way are, thinking about what the things that aren’t being said might be – and that’s the bread and butter of humanities education at university level.”

      And another: “Vocation isn’t just a job. Vocation is about wanting to make a difference in the world. It’s about enacting positive social change.”

      “There’s one strange outlier in the humanities data. Since 2008, the number of students taking sociology as their predominant course of study has increased by 58 percent – an increase so large that the subject now has more enrolments than any other major.” Now that is extremely interesting!

    • millsy 4.2
      23 October 2018 at 7:26 am

      You don’t see international students taking humanities. Let’s face it, Auckland Uni sees itself as catering to the needs to international students first and foremost, with the needs of New Zealand students a distant last. In fact, I reckon they would throw all the kiwi students out and have 100pc internationals if they had their way.

      Reflective of governments that have placed the needs of foreigners over the needs of locals.

      • SaveNZ 4.2.1
        23 October 2018 at 9:10 am

        Yep, and so Auckland Uni’s plummet down the international tables…. and we have massive skills shortages as people, funny enough, don’t want to work in a low wage economy… go figure!

        At lease neoliberalism has found yet another way to profit from low skilled people, so we can be a nation of petrol attendants and middle manager placeholders and bad lawyers and engineers who don’t speak or read English too well which is slight disadvantage in that career but atlease they are cheap!

        • WeTheBleeple 4.2.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 9:25 am

          I paid good money at Auckland uni to listen to a climate change denier for several lectures. I queried why he was even there and was told, it’s good to have both sides of the story. This was AFTER international consensus, and he preached that crap like it was gospel and students took lots of notes. Most of those students being internationals, or rich kids aka mini keys.

          They’re also dead keen on GE and have fallen for corporate lines and obfuscation hook line and sinker. They push this crap and talk about how we the public are misinformed ninnies who will cost us a fortune in missed opportunities bla bla bla. The MSM are spouting the same shit lately.

          Idiots regurgitating idiots. Repeating what they’ve been told or read, towing the corporate line. Gutless and pithy. They deserve to lose their rank.

          • SaveNZ 4.2.1.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 10:00 am

            WeTheBleeple – sad news – under the Natz massive clear out of universities of great lecturers and replaced by neoliberals robot lecturers and management.

      • greywarshark 4.2.2
        23 October 2018 at 10:09 am

        ‘Reflective of governments that have placed the ‘wants’ of foreigners over the needs of locals’. FIFY

      • In Vino 4.2.3
        23 October 2018 at 9:09 pm

        Spot on millsy. I always saw ripping off foreign students as a cheat’s way of boosting the criminal underfunding dealt out to our Education system right from when that ripping off was introduced under the supposedly ‘progressive’ reforms done during the 80s and 90s.
        Ripping off foreigners by profiteering out of them using the good reputation of our Education system is leading to its natural outcome: the ruination of our Education system.
        The Economy makes a very good servant, but a very bad master. We still need most people to understand that, it seems.

    • Ad 4.3
      23 October 2018 at 8:51 am

      We could probably have a good complain about the world today … or the supremacy of monetised instrumental rationality or somesuch.

      But seriously who reads novels now?

      In fact who reads now?

      I am sure we few are still the guardians of the galaxy, but as for all the rest …

      If humanities are still in decline when this government has made the first year of study free, maybe they need to reflect on what they are offering since they can’t even give it away.

      • SaveNZ 4.3.1
        23 October 2018 at 9:06 am

        Clearly not Blairites… reading not required…

      • greywarshark 4.3.2
        23 October 2018 at 10:06 am

        Going to uni is not something that is like fast food. If the humanities remain funded and are respected by a healthy culture in society they will attract the students who will gain in wisdom from them, and some will find them a vocation.
        Unfortunately our culture is based on materialistic aspects, like thinking about milk production, and as everyone knows milk goes sour very quickly.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.3.2.1
          23 October 2018 at 10:57 am

          If the humanities remain funded and are respected by a healthy culture in society they will attract the students who will gain in wisdom from them, and some will find them a vocation.

          It’s the respect that’s missing. When people get abused and insulted for studying humanities then people simply won’t do it. Same goes for work really.

    • Brutus Iscariot 4.4
      23 October 2018 at 12:51 pm

      Probably because the Humanities don’t teach critical thinking any more.

    • Incognito 4.5
      23 October 2018 at 10:10 pm

      Unfortunately, young people have been indoctrinated to think that only STEM subjects lead to personal prosperity. Even those who’re still passionate about the Humanities are worried that their job prospects won’t be good enough; critical thinking won’t afford them to buy their first home in a main centre, the EV, and family holidays in Fiji. Sociology makes them more employable, it seems.

  5. Morrissey 5
    23 October 2018 at 7:02 am

    Possible Replacements for Bumbling Bridges.

    No. 3: GERRY BROWNLEE

    Positives:
    (1) He can be funny, though not always on purpose.
    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2017/12/national-party-emergency-caucus-meeting.html

    Negatives:
    (1) He’s an obnoxious bully, notoriously throwing an elderly protestor down the stairs on one occasion and barging past airport security on another.
    https://thestandard.org.nz/brownlee-bullies-gns-staff/

    (2) He’s unpopular with women.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12124035

    (3) He’s not too bright: he failed his U.E. not once but TWICE, and he thinks it’s funny to bawl out in parliament: “Who IS this Edmund Burke? Who IS this Edmund Burke?”

    (4) He, along with the rest of Key’s regime, turned the Christchurch disaster into a fiasco.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/77169484/Gerry-Brownlee-protester-lost-son-Jayden-Andrews-Howland-in-earthquake

    This series is compiled by the team at Daisycutter Sports, Inc.

    Candidate No. 1: Simon O’Connor; No. 2: Paula “Snitch” Bennett
    Coming up: Amy Adams
    https://morrisseybreen.blogspot.com/2018/10/possible-replacements-for-bumbling_21.html

    • Drowsy M. Kram 5.1
      23 October 2018 at 11:25 am

      Very funny, team Daisycutter – keep up the good work.

      • Morrissey 5.1.1
        23 October 2018 at 6:50 pm

        Thank you Drowsy. Much appreciated.

        Kindest regards,

        Jack A. Napes (Chief Executive Officer) and all the team at Daisycutter Sports Inc.

  6. Sanctuary 6
    23 October 2018 at 7:05 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/opinion/107911188/capital-gains-tax-punishes-hard-work

    Good grief. Where do newspapers find these fucking idiots?

    So Lyn Webster thinks that a parasite rentier class is no more than just reward for hard work. let’s take a look at her ridiculous argument.

    “….The premise behind a capital gains tax is that people who work pay tax but people that get income from investing in capital – ie: shares, farms, rental properties etc do not and that this is somehow unfair….”

    So, let’s start with a straw man shall we Lyn? I mean why not, the rest of your piece is bullshit so let’s start as we mean to go on. But anyway, actually the main argument for a CGT is that the current tax system has at least contributed to rampant property speculation, encourages the creation of a parasiste rentier class that sucks dynamism out of the economy and ties up far to much of the nations wealth in fixed assets that do not contribute to growth.

    “…Everyone is entitled to live their life as they see fit. But why should the more astute person who perhaps sacrificed a bit of fun for hard work and saving, be made to pay a capital gains tax? Haven’t they earned their gains..?”

    Except that money makes money and in an undynamic economy dominated by a risk averse rent seeking elite the most likely indicator of social class and economic status is going to be who your parents are, not how hard you work.

    “…Political correctness prevents us from saying dole-bludger or beneficiary or loser…”

    But hey,. you’ll say it anyway, you bigoted arsewipe.

    “…Unfortunately it seems the Government of the day appears to have lost sight of the purpose of hard mahi, business and investment, preferring to dole out handouts from a ‘never ending’ money tree to whoever fits the ‘criteria’…”

    Seriously? This sentence… this sentence… it’s unoriginal talkback banality makes me want to bang my head on a wall until the pain of reading her column stops. This sentence offends at very least because this stuck up piece of bourgeois shit appropriates Maori – the language of a people oppressed and colonised by people like her – to support her argument.

    “…When did working hard and having financial success became a dirty word in New Zealand..?”

    Ummmm, how about never, you entitled dumb idiot?

    Like I said, where the fuck do they find these people????

    • Graeme 6.1
      23 October 2018 at 7:17 am

      One word

      Bludger

      It expects to get the benefits of civil society, without having to pay for it

    • SaveNZ 6.2
      23 October 2018 at 9:14 am

      I’m not a fan of any taxes that rely on taxable income. With loopholes galore and not catering for globalism and the rise in offshore tax havens and buying multiple citizenships around the world, get any taxes immediately with no ability for people to pay less (stamp duty, petrol taxes, rates, financial transaction taxes…)

    • mac1 6.3
      23 October 2018 at 9:45 am

      The article’s argument fell down for me as soon as the author hypothesised that the reason for a CGT was a government adviser looking for something to tax to pay for growing superannuation costs.

      The author ignored the concept that income should be taxable, no matter how it is gained.

      The author then got onto the ‘hard-earned’ meme which as she stated it is a version of the Protestant work ethic idea that wealth is a sign that God approves of our actions, and that wealth accrued comes from ‘hard work’, which in itself a God-blessed activity. It’s a self-justifying argument. She ignored the fact that capital gains are unearned income, at least in the sense of what most people consider what work is, let alone hard work.

      She also introduced the canard that poverty is down to the poor not being hard workers and who made poor decisions. Another self-serving 19th century concept of the ‘undeserving poor’.

      https://medium.com/@ebruenig/the-undeserving-poor-a-very-tiny-history-96c3b9141e13

      • In Vino 6.3.1
        23 October 2018 at 9:21 pm

        To my mind, Lyn’s view is totally perverse and upside-down. The one thing that should never be taxed is the income earned by one’s work. That should be utterly sacred. Webster is a Flat-Earther.
        Individual income should be hallowed as tax-free in the way that she thinks capital gains should be.
        On the other hand, it would be totally moral to impose taxes on everything else: capital gains, GST, import duties, transaction tax, etc.
        But the only thing that should be sacred is the money that one has individually earned. I wonder if Webster has ever thought seriously.

    • joe90 6.4
      23 October 2018 at 10:00 am

      Woman who says she owns her half of the herd reckons a capital gains tax will not necessarily affect me.

      https://www.agwomenglobal.com/blog/agwomen-lyn-webster

    • Rosemary McDonald 6.5
      23 October 2018 at 10:19 am

      Clearly Lyn Webster hit a particularly sensitive spot there Sanctuary, but could you temper the invective just a tad?

      Marama Fox pretty much espoused the same opinion about CGT prior the the 2017…I must trawl back and see if you leveled the same hate on her…

      Lyn Webster is one of those tough, strong, resourceful women who refuses to stay down and beg and chooses to get up fight back. I enjoy reading her many writings, and respect her for her resilience. I happen to largely disagree about her take on CGT, but I can see where it comes from.

      Many, many years of hard fucking graft and sacrifice.

      So chill, eh?

      Areswipe? Shame on you.

      • Crashcart 6.5.1
        23 October 2018 at 11:22 am

        Not sure how being a hard worker should insulate someone from being called out for a shit opinion.

        This whole section is a load of shit

        “Imagine if two people were given the same amount of money to do what they liked with. One person worked hard and studied, sacrificed their social life, had respectful habits in not drinking or smoking or over eating, saved diligently and set goals resulting in being able to invest in a rental property which over time grew into a profitable portfolio of rental properties.

        The other person was more YOLO and spent up large on home appliances, skipped between jobs, partied up large, travelled, abused their body a bit and ended up broke, on the sickness benefit – easy enough mistakes to make.

        Everyone is entitled to live their life as they see fit. But why should the more astute person who perhaps sacrificed a bit of fun for hard work and saving, be made to pay a capital gains tax? Haven’t they earned their gains?”

        It is nullified by her own statement earlier in the article

        “Maybe it was you or maybe it was a long ago relative that worked hard, recognised an opportunity and made some money out of it.”

        If she wants to go on a benne bashing rant but can’t even keep her own argument consistent through such a short article then where does she earn the deference you seem to think she deserves?

        • Rosemary McDonald 6.5.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 11:50 am

          Okay. You and Sanctuary are right. In everything you say and every opinion you espouse. Behind, of course, the safety of anonymity. Strong brave people that you are.

          There is a growing school of thought that if through hard work and careful spending and very simple living one can release oneself from the yoke of benefit dependency then true freedom from the tyranny of governments with their transient beneficence is possible.

          • McFlock 6.5.1.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 1:48 pm

            That school of thought is a myth that serves people who would pay CGT.

            A living wage would lift people out of “benefit dependency” by recognising the hard work and careful spending they already do. Most people on a benefit already use “careful spending”, because it doesn’t pay enough to offset the harm caused by a society with structural unemployment of 6-8%.

      • Sanctuary 6.5.2
        23 October 2018 at 1:32 pm

        I call it how I see it, and all I see is whiny rural wannabe toff with a bad case of exceptionalism and all the intellectual heft of a Spaniel with a bad hangover.

  7. Oberserver Tokoroa 7
    23 October 2018 at 8:05 am

    Who Sectioned Jami-Lee Ross ?

    Why has the so called Media not told us who incarcerated Mr Ross against his will. Are they yet again covering for the blindly Biased Herald, for a Political Party, for a Caucus, for a Chinese Donor, for a Foreigner? For a snide Guyon ? For a twisted Speaker perhaps?

    Has Simon Bridges reopened Auschwitz ?

    • te reo putake 7.1
      23 October 2018 at 8:36 am

      Time for a cuppa tea and a lie down, hey spinner?

    • JohnSelway 7.2
      23 October 2018 at 9:05 am

      Someone’s medical situation is private information. Ross needs to give permission for any of this to be public. It’s up to him and no one else.

      • SaveNZ 7.2.1
        23 October 2018 at 9:15 am

        I think if he’s been sectioned which the media is reporting , it should be public knowledge who authorised the sectioning….

        • Dennis Frank 7.2.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 9:29 am

          Yesterday, Slater replied to one of his commenters that a National MP did it. We now need a question asked in parliament to identify that MP. We need to target the responsibility precisely where it belongs. That person cannot escape being made politically accountable for their persecution of JLR.

          • mary_a 7.2.1.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 7:25 pm

            @ Dennis Frank (7.2.1.1) … Agree.

            While JLR’s state of health is none of my business, I do want to know who was responsible for having JLR sectioned to a mental health unit and on whose authority was this action carried out!

        • JohnSelway 7.2.1.2
          23 October 2018 at 9:31 am

          No, someone’s medical situation isn’t public information unless specifically requested by the patient. That’s that

        • mauī 7.2.1.3
          23 October 2018 at 9:57 am

          I don’t think it helps anyone releasing the names of medical professionals who are just doing their job.

          But it would ease the public speculation if we heard some more detail from people close to Ross. At least I hope he does have some support around him.

          • SaveNZ 7.2.1.3.1
            23 October 2018 at 10:02 am

            Yep, but does not sound like the job they were doing was for Ross wellbeing but for the Natz… in that context of course it should be public knowledge, the guy did not voluntarily put himself there and someone released to the media that he was committed, and so the next question should be, who did it and what links they have to the Natz…(or Chinese billionaires)

            • JohnSelway 7.2.1.3.1.1
              23 October 2018 at 10:09 am

              It doesn’t matter who did it and it isn’t your business. It’s for Ross and his family to decide what information goes publicly, and satisfying commentators at the standard is probably low on the list.

              And it doesn’t matter who called it in because Ross will have been assessed by a team of medical professionals to decide whether it is appropriate to section him. If he is sectioned then there is a very good reason. They don’t just do it because of someone’s day so.

              • Augustus …
                23 October 2018 at 11:38 am

                Yeah they do. Just ask any WINZ designated doctor. GPs (medical professionals) always wrongly declare people unable to work. /sarc

              • SaveNZ …
                23 October 2018 at 12:00 pm

                Yes, these days money buys anything.. and checking people’s qualifications are legitimate, isn’t a given…

                Questions linger over fake psychiatrist

                “The father of a mental health patient who died is asking how a fake psychiatrist was able to treat patients for six months before he was stopped.

                Mohamed Siddiqui has admitted using false qualifications to work as a psychiatrist in 2015.

                He pleaded guilty in Hamilton District Court yesterday to four charges, including using forged documents, obtaining a licence by deception, and receiving a salary and expenses while working as a psychiatrist for Waikato District Health Board.

                DHB member Dave Macpherson, whose son Nicky Stevens died while under the care of the DHB’s mental health services, said it was worrying Siddiqui was a member of a mental health crisis team seeing people in vulnerable and dangerous situations.”

          • veutoviper 7.2.1.3.2
            23 October 2018 at 10:03 am

            +1 to both your and John Selway’s comments above, with the proviso that the support is genuine and reliable – not of the nature of some names that have been mentioned.

      • Janet 7.2.2
        23 October 2018 at 11:15 am

        I am not seeking to know his medical situation. I want to know who was responsible for arranging for him to be sectioned. I do not even ask why.

        • JohnSelway 7.2.2.1
          23 October 2018 at 11:16 am

          The person(s) responsible is the medical professionals who assessed him and made the call.

          If Ross wants to discuss it in more detail then it is up to him and him alone. Not you or anyone else.

          • Janet 7.2.2.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 1:48 pm

            And who called the medical professionals ?

            • JohnSelway 7.2.2.1.1.1
              23 October 2018 at 1:52 pm

              It doesn’t really matter because whomever did obviously had reason to do so.

              Even if it was Bridges himself whatever reason he did so was serious enough that mental health professionals thought the best option was to section Ross.

              • mpledger …
                23 October 2018 at 2:12 pm

                But the reason might not be for the benefit of JLR but for the National party. That’s the point.

                The medical professionals might just be covering themselves. If they don’t section someone and something goes wrong then they are stuffed. So, for their own benefit, they err on the side of caution.

                • JohnSelway …
                  23 October 2018 at 2:23 pm

                  The bar for sectioning someone is very fucking high. It isn’t done ‘just to err on the side of caution’.

                  What happens would be that the seriously recommend you stay and if you don’t you have to sign a waver to the affect the medical professionals have no liability and you are checking yourself out despite the opinion you should really stay.

                  I’ve done it.

                  Again – you won’t be sectioned unless you really need it. Not just a ‘let’s cover our asses’ because you are effectively imprisoning someone. The bar is damned damned fucking high

                  • mpledger …
                    23 October 2018 at 3:15 pm

                    Even if your knowledge is correct in general, it needn’t hold in this particular case.

                    And why this case is important is because a political party (we are to believe) got an enemy sectioned.

                    That is why the light needs to be shone very brightly on how this occurred.

                    (This doesn’t depend on knowing the details of his mental health. )

          • Psych nurse 7.2.2.1.2
            23 October 2018 at 1:55 pm

            Absolutely correct.

          • marty mars 7.2.2.1.3
            23 October 2018 at 2:44 pm

            John you and I and a few others who work and know this area know you are correct. I’m going to suggest you have a think about the point of continuing to try and counter the speculations. Here’s the point – look after yourself. None of the people here are going to change, they have other agendas. They dont care about the angle on this that you do. They just don’t and won’t get it. Imo You are not going to convince anyone simply because they are not thinking about it in the same way as you. Look after yourself. The commenters and posters here won’t.

            • JohnSelway 7.2.2.1.3.1
              23 October 2018 at 2:51 pm

              Mental health is something I take seriously.

              Also:
              https://xkcd.com/386/

              • veutoviper …
                23 October 2018 at 3:14 pm

                LOL to the link.

                But John, listen to marty mars. He works in mental health, as do some others here. What he has said is spot on. Far better than I have been trying to say to you earlier in talking about hitting my head, etc. I have just had to take an hour out and breathe deeply, as I have been putting up links for months on the role of NZ Police these days as the first line of response to mental health emergencies – again a waste of time as evidenced by munro’s comments again this afternoon. It – and they – are just not worth it.

                Have other commitments for the next few hours, so out of here thankfully. Take care, JS – and MM

                • JohnSelway …
                  23 October 2018 at 3:19 pm

                  Thanks man – I take your comments seriously.
                  I may not work in mental health but I have been part of the system for some 15 – 20 years so know a few things…

    • Gabby 7.3
      23 October 2018 at 12:47 pm

      What’s Peda Goodfellas up to these days?

  8. Dennis Frank 8
    23 October 2018 at 8:54 am

    Peter Williams: “I’m an avowed non-user. Like the 10-year-old with the cigarette behind the bike sheds, I’ve taken either three or four puffs of cannabis in my life. I couldn’t see the point.” https://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2018/10/peter-williams-on-legalising-cannabis/#more-417299

    Interesting. Is this the TVNZ newsreader?? Slater just posted this online, block-quotes his call for legalisation, interspersed with his own comments. If so, remarkable for such an archetypal conservative dude. I cut stories for him quite often at TVNZ, wouldn’t say boo to a goose. Maybe times are a-changin’…

    • Dennis Frank 8.1
      23 October 2018 at 9:19 am

      Was checking to see if he had an update, but no. Yesterday’s “National’s hit job puts JLR into care” got 241 comments. Slater’s response to one: “A National MP called the police.” Legally entitled to take out the whistle-blower. Here’s a sample:

      “I have worked in the psychiatric field for over 40 years and I can recall no admission to hospital for people suffering mental illness being a police matter that warranted constant repetition by the media unless the patient had caused significant threat to the public. … His work colleagues knew of this, and had known this for some time. It would seem the screw was deliberately turned at a time when it would do the most damage and that began with the so called investigation over the leak. … IMHO JLR was as much set up for a fall as the author of his own destruction.”

      One referred to JLR & advisors, provoking this response from Slater: “What advisors? You guys really don’t get it do you. This was JLR acting alone, from a position of fear and destruction, put there by the concerted and planned hit job on him.”

      Different commenter: “There are others pulling strings in the back ground.” Slater: “No there aren’t. The only string pulling has been done by Bennett.”

      Someone else: “the fact that the ‘establishment’ in the National Party were so threatened by what JLR knew shows that they would stop at nothing to silence him. That it took its toll on the already vulnerable JLR is not surprising. What we should be concerned about is the stranglehold of the National Party’s inner circle, who seem to be confirming their own lack of conscience and accountability with every day that passes. This festering sore needs to be cauterised – and as soon as possible. We need a new conservative political party we can trust, and who we can all get behind wholeheartedly. Our future depends upon it.”

      • Dennis Frank 8.1.1
        23 October 2018 at 10:00 am

        I found another interesting bit. Someone asked “So what was the issue that started this; the clash between Bridges and Ross all about? Slater: “It is call a conscience. Eventually the pressure of the dirty deeds breaks them. Then the truth comes out.”

        I agree. Ambitious young politician does the job his party wants, follows instructions, realises it’s morally wrong, gets disgusted, internal pressure builds, becomes a whistle-blower due to conscience.

        • McFlock 8.1.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 10:45 am

          “Eventually the pressure of the dirty deeds breaks them. Then the truth comes out.”
          Hasn’t happened with Slater, AFAIK.

          • Dennis Frank 8.1.1.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 11:42 am

            Yeah, with Slater one’s default position wouldn’t be truth! But I’m inclined to take him at face value in the context here. As I commented, it makes sense in respect of conscience driving Ross after the tipping point.

            I’m also seeing divergence of Ross from a theoretical cabal involving Lusk etc. He could have been taking advice from anyone like that earlier, then felt insufficient support or common ground, so the lone wolf behaviour kicked in.

            Keep in mind that after leaving school he went straight to standing for council and got in on the youth vote, then was successful in imposing accountability on Len Brown. Such success in formative years would create & define character.

  9. ScottGN 9
    23 October 2018 at 9:07 am

    It looks increasingly likely that Australia will take up our offer to settle refugees off Nauru soon.
    It was a big issue with voters in Wentworth and the new MP Kerryn Phelps has said it’s her priority as she heads to Canberra. PM Scott Morrison has changed tack and said he’d support resettlement to NZ provided laws can be enacted preventing them from onward travel to Australia. He has received unexpected support from Gillian Triggs (a great Australian!) who has said that while she deplores the discriminatory nature of the ban has said that it’s better than doing nothing. Labor leader Bill Shorten has just rescinded Labor’s opposition to the travel ban.
    https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/federal/labor-moves-to-end-stalemate-over-refugee-families-held-on-nauru-20181022-p50ba8.html

    • SaveNZ 9.1
      23 October 2018 at 10:07 am

      Has backfired on the Natz as now although Ross sounds like a horrible piece of work, you start to feel sorry for him and more concerned that he has been silenced against his will… to the benefit of the Natz and the billionaire donors of course.

      . sorry do we live in NZ where this is allowed to happen while our centre left government takes a seat and does nothing? Clearly all the wails of must do something about mental health fall away, when they let this happen and go la la la

    • Gabby 9.2
      23 October 2018 at 12:51 pm

      Now that they’ve broken them. And on condition that they be 2nd class citizens forever. Yay Strowlya.

      • ScottGN 9.2.1
        23 October 2018 at 1:00 pm

        Australia’s behaviour on this issue has been, and continues to be appalling of course but the main thing is to get those families off Nauru so I’m inclined to agree with Gillian Triggs here.

  10. reason 10
    23 October 2018 at 9:16 am

    Seeing the sign ” New Zealand is a corrupt polluted tax haven “, in a photo of Penny Brights funeral service … spurred me to write a series of posts in tribute …. starting with a Woman … who possibly even Penny admired.

    A Corrupt Corruption Index.

    Clare Rewcastle Brown was central to the exposure of the multi billion 1MDB state theft and corruption crimes …

    To date it is the largest single example of state fraud / theft …. and has resulted in the largest asset seizure actions in the usa ….. with a NZ connection.

    The recently defeated and former Malaysian Prime Minister has been arrested.

    Clare helped bring about this downfall of the rich and powerful …..despite PR company hired to conduct multi-fronted campaigns of lies, smears and threats against her http://www.sarawakreport.org/2011/08/taib-paid-out-5-million-to-attack-sarawak-report-international-expose/……

    Sarawak Report and its corruption fighting author / journalist has also pointed out the falseness of the world corruption index rankings …. by dint of Malaysia s placing on it.

    “Malaysia’s place on the world wide Index of corrupt countries fell from 55 to sixty something last year….. “The sad truth of the matter is that Malaysia should be at the bottom of this world index of corrupt countries. How many other countries have a mega criminal as Prime Minister and a Parliament content to do whatever he tells it to do or not to do? Or a Court system which ignores justice in favour of covering the criminal activities of the head of government.”

    Maybe NZ has a false high ranking…. a confidence trick penny bright could see through

    Clare Rewcastle Brown through repeated articles and numerous examples …. shows how New Zealand is involved with the largest crimes in the world ….. Calling out Judith Collins and John Shewan as either dishonest or inept while she does so .http://www.sarawakreport.org/search/?q=New+Zealand&lang=en&page=1

    If our media keep us ignorant about the corrupt corporations, companies and individuals using or exploiting New Zealand …..

    And instead we receive repeated reporting that we are the least corrupt country in the world…

    Could this cause us to look directly at something, and not see it for what it is ?….

    examples

    http://bealeness.tumblr.com/post/31987806819/the-basics-behind-the-winebox-inquiry “The insider trades continued throughout the whole privatization process and one man in particular, Michael Fay, became the master of executing deals, which in most countries would be illegal due to “conflict of interests” and also “insider trading” through the possession of forward information. ”

    or
    ” Primary Industries Minister Nathan Guy insists “They are finished products, I have seen some fantastic-looking kauri swamp logs being carved and they’re going to be an amazing feature for our country and an international country that they’re destined for. So we manage it very, very closely.” Really? Documents obtained under the Official Information Act by the NEPS are claimed to show that in fact, mandatory information was missing from some 80 per cent of MPI intention-to-export notices processed in 2013.” …
    https://publicaddress.net/envirologue/swamp-monsters-the-looting-of-northlands/

    or

    NZ Herald — ” when to remove a contentious exemption of professional services firms – mostly lawyers, accountants and real estate agents – from being covered by anti-money laundering laws passed in 2009.” …. ” the professional services sector was now more attractive to criminals and “potentially provides a ‘road map’ for would-be money launderers”.

    or

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/366666/at-least-16-foreign-investors-have-bought-nz-sensitive-land-illegally

    National party donations dirty tricks
    Nat Govt fraudulent carbon credits scam
    Meth contamination Hoax …

    • SaveNZ 10.1
      23 October 2018 at 10:10 am

      +1 Reason.

      • cleangreen 10.1.1
        23 October 2018 at 5:46 pm

        100% reason. spot on.
        Mitchell shopped JLR as he knew the ‘sectioning’ of public.

        We need to be suspicious now of every National Party MP and action.

    • Gabby 10.2
      23 October 2018 at 12:54 pm

      I don’t recall Nothing Guy ever sharing piccies of the fantastic carvings now that you mention it. I guess he left his phone in the car.

  11. chris73 11
    23 October 2018 at 9:36 am

    Good to see that people of the USA are basically ignoring what celebrities have to say

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/10/donald-trump-s-approval-rating-higher-than-barack-obama-at-same-stage-of-presidency-new-poll.html

    ‘Mr Trump’s 47 percent approval rating is the highest of his term. He sat at 44 percent in the last poll conducted by the news outlet in September’

    • ScottGN 11.1
      23 October 2018 at 9:46 am

      That poll is a week old and had a very small sample of only 900, most of the polling outfits in America sample 1500 people. There’s been plenty of polls out since that one that have his approval ratings in the low 40s where it’s been stuck since the election. It’s possible that poll captured an uptick for Trump and Republicans from the Kavanaugh confirmation but the effect from that has already started to wane.
      Take a look at fivethirtyeight.

      https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

      • chris73 11.1.1
        23 October 2018 at 9:53 am

        Well if his numbers are stuck then its not going backwards and so the point about ignoring celebrities still stands so its all good 🙂

        • ScottGN 11.1.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 10:13 am

          Points for trying. But I think what the polls tell us is that Americans who intend to vote are wisely ignoring all of the partisan rubbish that’s thrown at them from all sides and are making up their own mind about the performance of their president.

    • Gabby 11.2
      23 October 2018 at 12:55 pm

      The yankers have always had a soft spot for crooks chrissy.

  12. chris73 12
    23 October 2018 at 9:55 am

    So wanting a diversion from JLR I read this article and I thought it interesting

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/107964829/a-breed-apart-mps-are-now-birds-of-a-different-feather

    Maybe some sort of standard for MPs needs to be implemented, like you can’t be an MP unless you’re 30+ and have at least five years work experience outside of government/university

    • AB 12.1
      23 October 2018 at 10:15 am

      “and have at least five years work experience outside of government/university”

      If we are making such stipulations then we could add:
      – at least five years working outside the private sector – preferably in a not for profit organisation
      – never set foot in a university business school
      – etc.
      Then again, any such stipulations are plainly idiotic and simply demonstrate the biases of the stipulator.

    • KJT 12.2
      23 October 2018 at 10:24 am

      Maybe a quota for small business owners, tradespeople and wage workers.

      You know, the people who actually keep the country going.

      The preponderance of lawyers, corporate crawlers and career politicians, is not a good thing.

      • chris73 12.2.1
        23 October 2018 at 10:29 am

        I agree, as the article we have a greater representation then we’ve ever had…as long as you went to university so it would be good to have more views from more walks of life

        • McFlock 12.2.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 10:53 am

          There’s a reason most politicians these days went to university: the bums on seats approach to university education in the 1990s combined with the fact that being able to write 1200 words and give a presentation are key skills for politicians, not so much for checkout operators or plumbers.

          • chris73 12.2.1.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 10:57 am

            So how do you think we could encourage more non-university people to stand for parliament?

            • McFlock 12.2.1.1.1.1
              23 October 2018 at 11:09 am

              More MPs.

              Keep proportionality of 50-60 list MPs, but also make electorates much smaller in size, say 10,000 voters or so. 200-300 seat parliament (if my math is in the ballpark).

              • chris73 …
                23 October 2018 at 11:18 am

                How would that encourage more non-uni types to join, sounds like it’d cost a helluva lot more unless you’re decreasing the pay (which would be ok with me) and all we’d get is more of the same

                • McFlock …
                  23 October 2018 at 11:27 am

                  Because it would encourage more local representation and make electorate campaigns cheaper. More akin to local councils. And I’m sure there’d be some electorates where degrees are thin on the ground.

              • SaveNZ …
                23 October 2018 at 1:11 pm

                I’d like to see a ballot made up of ordinary people in parliament based on a jury system who are called up for duty for a period of time … not more MP’s … the public having more say…

                • McFlock …
                  23 October 2018 at 1:58 pm

                  Fuck no. Jury members can be objected to, and with good reason.

                  I think smaller community representatives are the way to go, which either means more MPs or going bi-cameral.

                  Call me a snob, but more direct democracy turns into rabble-rousing, where you end up with things like minaret bans and contradictory policies being implemented by referenda.

                  But if everyone knows their MP is just down the block, it’s easier to give them a piece of one’s mind.

                  • SaveNZ …
                    23 October 2018 at 2:50 pm

                    Don’t agree, Jurys get better results in general, and the ordinary folks seems a lot smarter than the mentality of the MP’s in parliament these days. Many are scum.

                    • McFlock …
                      23 October 2018 at 2:55 pm

                      And lawyers get to object to specific people being on a jury, no questions asked.

                      Juries are also vulnerable to dominant personalities, systemic bias, etc.

                      If we paid politicians less and had them more accountable to smaller electorates, they’d be less inclined to play games. Be too much of a dick, become unseated.

                  • KJT …
                    23 October 2018 at 7:57 pm

                    Do you only like Democracy when it agrees with you. Eh?
                    By the way, church bells waking people up early on Sunday mornings, have been banned in New Zealand for some time.

                    • McFlock …
                      23 October 2018 at 8:42 pm

                      No, I don’t like angry mobs being in charge of legislation. There’s a difference.

                    • KJT …
                      23 October 2018 at 9:26 pm

                      You would rather have ignorant politicians?

                      Not sure where you get “angry mobs” from binding referenda?

                      BTW. Angry mobs are rare, without a good reason.

          • KJT 12.2.1.1.2
            23 October 2018 at 12:47 pm

            People learn that in high school. University lecturers expect those skills before you start.

            • McFlock 12.2.1.1.2.1
              23 October 2018 at 12:55 pm

              If that were the case, the bulk of first-year essays would be much better than they really are.

        • KJT 12.2.1.2
          23 October 2018 at 12:13 pm

          Yes. Not many Kirk’s, Savages or JA Lees in our Parliament.

  13. Pete 13
    23 October 2018 at 10:00 am

    I’m disappointed to see thatMatthew Hooton’s not going to be on RNZ in his usual slot this morning. I was looking forward to his endless extolling of Simon Bridges’ performance in the last fortnight.
    Guess I’ll Just have to content myself with Trish Sherson doing it.

    • veutoviper 13.1
      23 October 2018 at 10:10 am

      IIRC Hooton is in the UK for about three months or so, doing a “quickie” Masters degree or something along those lines. Been there since about the beginning of Sept or thereabouts, although still doing some of his media stuff (eg Herald articles) from afar.

      It has actually been quite refreshing to hear the various substitutes that have been on Nine to Noon – mostly young bright females* who have come across well IMO despite their political leanings!

      * not intended as sexist in any way.

      • KJT 13.1.1
        23 October 2018 at 10:30 am

        I too find it refreshing too hear some young, bright women, instead of ignorant old white fellers promoted beyound their competence level. Being an old white feller myself they really annoy me. Giving us a bad name.

        Same in Parliament. People like Golriz Gahramen, Chloe Swarbrick and Kiri Allen are exceptional. Gives me hope for the future.

        • veutoviper 13.1.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 10:34 am

          Good to hear – from an old white woman*. LOL.

          (* Who still knows that ‘woman’ means one female, and “women” means more than one! Uuuugggggghhhh!)

          • patricia bremner 13.1.1.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 12:00 pm

            YES my pet hate too. woman =1 women = more than one… the latter pronounced ‘wimmin’ thanks.

            • veutoviper 13.1.1.1.2.1
              23 October 2018 at 12:59 pm

              Sorry, I apologise, mea culpa

              Not meant as any criticism of you at all. Just a totally unconnected senior moment on my part when I typed ‘woman’ because I had seen these two terms being totally misused elsewhere a few minutes beforehand and let the steam out – in the wrong place.

        • Pete 13.1.1.2
          23 October 2018 at 11:14 am

          If Hooton is away getting some sort of further educational qualification does that mean he’ll come back as a not ignorant old white feller promoted beyond his competence level?

        • Dukeofurl 13.1.1.3
          23 October 2018 at 1:59 pm

          Great comment KJT
          “ignorant old white fellers promoted beyound their competence level. Being an old white feller myself they really annoy me. Giving us a bad name.”

          yes , when you recognise the same old arguments and claims and you know they dont work anymore so its good to hear new voices.

    • OnceWasTim 13.2
      23 October 2018 at 7:52 pm

      Everytime Sherson spoke, I got Desert Road static on the AM band. I’m picking I didn’t miss much

      • Chris 13.2.1
        23 October 2018 at 8:17 pm

        I hope Sherson stays. Her bullshit is obvious, whereas Hooton shapes his horseshit quite carefully for the average punter to swallow. Dangerous wee fellow.

  14. SaveNZ 14
    23 October 2018 at 10:41 am

    Totally disagree with this whitewash (below) from Jacinda, to preserve transparency the point is that EVERY donation should be recorded, even if it is tea towel, dinner or what have you. I’m tired of all these pretty legal ways of avoiding showing your political donations… even a $ should be public knowledge, and defiantly wining and dining, Bridges style!

    It ain’t that hard when you take the money to also record who gave it! Much easier than having people buying and hiding political influence which is clearly what is rife in NZ which is certainly putting people off believing in the government.

    At the end of the day if it is allowed to be wiped under the carpet that Bridges and Ross were plotting to divide donations then they should be prosecuted under the law and the loophole stopped. Its obviously rife and still nothing done about it.

    Trump gained power by telling people he was going to be draining the swamp while the Democrats said, ‘what swamp’?

    I’m also tired of being hit up for donations on anything to do with politics – they seem more like money grubbers desperate for funds that actually a likeable party the uses the public funds that are given to them, wisely. Again it is the rise of neoliberalism…. this ideas that they need money to win, rather than ethics or likability and the actual point of politics is supposed to make things better for people in the country not themselves and offshore billionaires.

    Same should be happening with local government and they should not be allowed to be taking unsolicited unpaid trips to China or anywhere else! If they want to go, they pay for it themselves, or better still, don’t go!

    From Granny…

    “When asked about whether the anonymity of donors should remain, Adern questioned the practicality of such a change.

    “We then have to look at the vast number, not the numerical value, but the number of our donations which actually come from quite small donations online and things like someone buying a tea towel or sausage sizzle.

    “I know that sounds benign but literally that is a part of the way we gather our donations, so would we want a system where, if you made a $10 donation online, you would have to then be on a public register? a) that would be quite unwieldy and b) I think it would probably put people off supporting democracy,” Adern said.”

    • SaveNZ 14.1
      23 October 2018 at 10:54 am

      “would we want a system where, if you made a $10 donation online, you would have to then be on a public register? a) that would be quite unwieldy and b) I think it would probably put people off supporting democracy”

      …. yes that attitude has now made our democracy a joke where ethnicities that ‘give’ the most get to be MP’s… and changing our political system to be openly Kleptocratic to the point ethnicities are valued on who much donations it is anticipated they bring in…

      aka Two Chinese MP’s are with more than two Indians…

      Personally I’d like to see, the identity of any donation so that those for example who buy up 100,000 tea towels or give 100,000 $10 donations, can be examined… in the context of their overall donations and links to those donations…

      • Gabby 14.1.1
        23 October 2018 at 1:15 pm

        I can’t imagine any good kiwi employer would ever penalise a worker for donating to a party he saw as anti business savey, even if the worker wasn’t a mate. So a public register of contributors would be fine and dandy.

        • Dukeofurl 14.1.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 1:51 pm

          parties want to hide donors , as it gives them control over the amount of donations.
          They will tell you that $100k is gets someone on the list and then find that an Indian Mp connections gave a lot less !

          Now you might ask, where I got the idea that some ethnicitys were worth more than others.

          • SaveNZ 14.1.1.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 2:47 pm

            And the poor (or less interested in cash for access) MP’s are less profitable, so they are off the list… murky… no wonder growing inequality.

        • SaveNZ 14.1.1.2
          23 October 2018 at 2:45 pm

          And maybe you would bypass that employer if you knew they were a big donator to a certain party… it already is there in the law to show your donations, the difference is that there are ways for donations to be hidden.. I think in NZ it is even more important because we are currently having our assets bought up… and so people are amassing hundreds of millions of property for example and buying influence even their way into parliament!

    • McFlock 14.2
      23 October 2018 at 11:07 am

      When I was member of a political party, we used to pass the hat around at the end of each meeting (mostly to cover the room costs for the meeting).

      Should each donation of a few coins be registered by name and address?

      • SaveNZ 14.2.1
        23 October 2018 at 11:26 am

        Yes.

        You have to declare even a few coins to the tax department theoretically, so in general people are used to having to account for money…. also if in these meetings the people then start getting lucrative concessions by government at least it can be tracked back… an average person I don’t think fears that their donation is public of a few dollars, but people who are playing the system will and those who donate big money to both Labour and National or just one or the other for example can be tracked back and it will ensure that there is no favouritism.

        Otherwise we go the American way.

        Even in OZ they are concerned at big business (banks) and foreign donations… here in NZ the power interest say… oh too hard, nothing to see here…

        • McFlock 14.2.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 12:51 pm

          Some people will most certainly be concerned if their name and address is made public because they gave a local branch a few dollars.

          If you want to track the big money, track the big money. Don’t make every political organisation provide a list of all people who turn up to a meeting and chipped in a few coins.

          • SaveNZ 14.2.1.1.1
            23 October 2018 at 12:59 pm

            The point is, they can’t track the big money, because there is so many loopholes. They need to close the loopholes.

            So what, people may not donate a few coins, sounds better to me, than allowing $100k to buy your right to be an MP and have donors slipping into smaller denominations to hide their donations!

            Note this is not the first time aka John Banks being convicted for hiding donations (and then weirdly without another trial unconvicted by the evidence of a US citizen who do not come forward for years, hmmmm bit like the rich lister drug importer yesterday having his conviction quashed, justice is clearly for sale if you are rich and connected, like our MPs and our political system).

            I think we all know there will be no justice in NZ over this and nobody will be convicted of fraud on not declaring the donations and put in prison, even though there is taped evidence and presumably Ross is a witness…

            So essentially it works for our politicians to hide the donations so they will keep doing it, and even when caught the politician and donor will get away with it.

            • McFlock 14.2.1.1.1.1
              23 October 2018 at 1:44 pm

              ISTR the loophole banks exploited was that he got outed after the statute of limitations for the I didn’t do my job offence had passed. Then he had to be nailed down for knowingly signing a false return. He managed to reasonably argue (on appeal) that he had signed it without knowing the contents.

              Easy enough to fix – extend or eliminate the statute of limitations for that offence.

              Donation splitting is an issue, but can be worked around. Lower the anonymous threshold to $1,000. Audit a percentage of the donations via bank records. Generally make it more trouble than it’s worth.

              Increasing the workload of branch treasurers would push people out of politcal participation, as well as the privacy thing. And the rich will still make donations.

        • Gabby 14.2.1.2
          23 October 2018 at 1:16 pm

          Or, we could just ban corporate contributions.

        • Craig H 14.2.1.3
          24 October 2018 at 12:15 am

          Even tax legislation has a de minimis threshold of $200 per annum, below which untaxed income does not necessitate filing an income tax return.

      • Dukeofurl 14.2.2
        23 October 2018 at 1:52 pm

        Small donations are counted in US .

        Buy a fund raiser T shirt from a campaign and your details are taken, including your employers name .

        Regarding banning corporate donations, thats the rule surprisingly in US.
        Just means they donate to ‘Super Pacs and even the relevant Party Senate or Congressional campaign committee- who then funds politician.

        • McFlock 14.2.2.1
          23 October 2018 at 2:01 pm

          Yeah, or runs advertising against their candidate’s opponents.

          The pac/superpac thing really took off after the Citizens United case which removed campaign spending limits for organisations. We don’t have that constraint.

        • SaveNZ 14.2.2.2
          23 October 2018 at 2:39 pm

          And ban any means that bypass the banning donations…

          The problem in today’s society is not the laws but the loopholes.

  15. SaveNZ 15
    23 October 2018 at 10:57 am

    “I would love a situation where we didn’t have to campaign and fundraise for our campaigns, but we do. I don’t think there is a social license that exists out there for us to have state funding,”

    yes there is, how do they know that? The average person wants democracy and not people buying power.

  16. SaveNZ 16
    23 October 2018 at 11:29 am

    From the Greens

    Stop powerful vested interests and preserve democracy

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1810/S00168/stop-powerful-vested-interests-and-preserve-democracy.htm

    (The Greens apparently ask their MP’s to give part of their salaries to fund the party, unlike the Natz who it seems require $100k up front to become an MP, and presumably then request as many ‘donations’ as possible in return for favourable outcomes or order of NZ awards and then rank the ethnicities that deliver on those donations).

  18. Treetop 18
    23 October 2018 at 1:02 pm

    There has been talk of what information people are entitled to in a person’s medical file.

    Did you know that were a person to die from surgery without an executor and you took a complaint to the Health and Disability Commissioner (HDC) to investigate, the HDC can limit medical information you recieve from the DHB?

    A dead person has no rights and they are not able to question aspects of their care or their death.

    The only available options are to do an official information act (OIA) request for missing medical information, or apply to the court for a certificate to become an executor.

    Once the coroner’s office closes the file, it can only be reopened if you ask and request the high court or the solicitor general to do so. I am not sure if this is an appeal process.

    The coroner’s office does not need to see or include in their cause of death the treatment injury form.

    Really hard to get the details from ACC but a woman felt sorry for me and told me that a treatment injury was on file with ACC. I do not know what ICU wrote.

    I cannot provide any more information as the situation is current. Other than to say it was routine surgery and everything that could have gone wrong did.

  19. Rosemary McDonald 19
    23 October 2018 at 1:16 pm

    Hmmm…https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/369235/counties-manukau-dhb-seeks-full-investigation-by-sfo

    New Chair of CMDHB has asked the Serious Fraud Office to investigate financial irregularities described latest report from accountancy firm.

    Pretty much what Our Fragile Friend was calling for a few months ago…

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/360599/claim-of-unauthorised-excessive-spending-at-counties-manukau-dhb

    It’s all starting to make a little bit more sense, in a down-the-rabbit-hole kind of way.

    • Dukeofurl 19.1
      23 October 2018 at 1:45 pm

      I think it was unrelated to JLR. he was just giving out info from the two people sacked from the board by Clark-
      These things happened under the previous board,…. some of whom have now gone.

  20. Dukeofurl 20
    23 October 2018 at 2:01 pm

    A new day dawns and Bryce Edwards at last thinks some good for the public at large will come from JLR saga.

    “Some of this might be good for politics and democracy. After all, they say that sunlight is the best disinfectant”
    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/10/22/280224/the-dangerously-escalating-bridges-ross-wars

    How long did it take him to work that out !

    No word yet from him on nationals admitted own involvement ‘along with medical professionals and police’ in the recent events.

    • xanthe 20.1
      23 October 2018 at 2:52 pm

      well i have been watching WO during this (purely scientific research you understand) and i believe i know what he is up to. Have a look at his bogus poll (of WO subscribers) I think he plans for the “new conservatives” to become the alt nat coalition party.

    • Chris T 20.2
      23 October 2018 at 4:24 pm

      “No word yet from him on nationals admitted own involvement”

      I keep seeing this

      I’m not accusing you of making it up but can you post a link to this “admitted own involvement” as I haven’t seen it

  21. Pete 21
    23 October 2018 at 2:39 pm

    Fancy that, Nikki Kaye at her petulant worst in Parliament today. Maybe she saw her name on some of the lists as a replacement for Bridges and wants to make her mark as a tough one.

    • SaveNZ 21.1
      23 October 2018 at 2:42 pm

      Yes well if Greens and Labour had been more organised we could have been rid of her as an electorate MP as they both got more votes combined in Auckand Central.

      She is useless, even had someone I know voting blue, complaining about her when he went to try and get some help from the Natz. Clearly he didn’t know you need to pay ahem donate, to get any traction from them these days.

    • ianmac 21.2
      23 October 2018 at 5:05 pm

      Yeah. What a snarky person is Nikki. And she still didn’t get the reason she was causing the problem.
      This one I think.
      https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=203355

      • Chris 21.2.1
        23 October 2018 at 6:39 pm

        It wasn’t that long ago she was being compared to Ardern – young women MPs on the up-and up.

  22. ianmac 22
    23 October 2018 at 5:02 pm

    Lisa Owens is on now tonight for Checkpoint. She is the takeover from John Campbell. Says she has something from the MP who was in a relationship with JLR. Lisa is a sharp interviewer.

    • ianmac 22.1
      23 October 2018 at 5:35 pm

      Well. Lisa started telling about an email/text that was sent to JLR by the Nat MP who was having an affair with him. It ended with “I hope that you die.” The expected report stopped abruptly…. and switched to different topic.

      • Anne 22.1.1
        23 October 2018 at 5:57 pm

        ianmac I replied to you along the same lines but keep getting a “timed out” message.

        Yes, there was something fishy there. She came back to the original story 15 mins later sans the bit about the abusive email sent to JLR in August. My guess is there was a last minute call from someone linked to National threatening RNZ if they pursued the story.

        Could someone look at the edit function. It’s playing up again.

        • I feel love 22.1.1.1
          23 October 2018 at 6:03 pm

          WTF is going on? It’s like the worse cover up ever. I wish we had some decent media in this country, you know it’s bad if you have to check WO for information.

        • ianmac 22.1.1.2
          23 October 2018 at 7:15 pm

          Mind you Lisa Owen would be the last person to mess with.
          Of course it is different if the woman bullies and abuses the man.

  23. Morrissey 23
    23 October 2018 at 8:21 pm

    Beaten, stabbed and burned alive:
    The Venezuelan opposition forces in action.

    I recommend anyone who wants to understand what is being perpetrated against the people of Venezuela by the United States regime, to watch all of this video, which completely demolishes unfunny propagandamedian John Oliver.

    Especially watch the segment beginning at the 36:30 mark.

    The lynching of Orlando Figueroa begins at the 39:57 mark. (John Oliver calls this “pretty fucking restrained!”)

    • adam 23.1
      24 October 2018 at 2:27 am

      I threw up watching the original Oliver piece.

      I’ve never watched him again, and never will.

      • Morrissey 23.1.1
        24 October 2018 at 9:23 am

        He’s watched, and obviously believed, by many of the “liberals” on this forum.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.