Open mike 23/10/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 23rd, 2021 - 162 comments
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162 comments on “Open mike 23/10/2021 ”

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  1. francesca 1
    23 October 2021 at 8:00 am

    Ceri Black, the woman who has been asked to voluntarily go to the police station (and if she doesn’t ,get arrested) speaks.All this because of a complaint lodged by a man about her tweets.

    https://ceriblack.substack.com/p/full-text-of-my-speech-to-the-belfast

    • Anker 1.1
      23 October 2021 at 10:46 am

      Increidble. This women is really courageous.

      Thanks for posting Francesca. Is this the same women Weka posted about yesterday.

    • Gypsy 1.2
      23 October 2021 at 11:20 am

      And this is precisely the sort of nonsense we'll get here if Faafoi get's his way.

      All power to Ceri.

      • Sabine 1.2.1
        23 October 2021 at 11:35 am

        Faafoi is merely a messenger, who can be replaced by the leaders of Gov at any instance, or what its worth, he could also resign if he don't want his good name to be attached to this abomination of a law.

        This bill is being shoved down these sweet lands is courtesy of the full Labour Party / Government with their handmaiden/aunt lydia the Green Party.

  2. GreenBus 2
    23 October 2021 at 8:15 am

    I wonder what Hone Harawira is doing to keep the virus out of the North and to help the people get vaccinated. Whatever he's doing is usually a good practical effort using locals to do the mahi. We in regions could do a lot worse, like do nothing, than to do similar to Hone Harawira, whatever it is. I have some faith in the man in times of shit.

    With the coming "opening" of Auckland that bloody virus will get everywhere before we know it. Regional borders could be a thing, run by locals. Something must be able to be done and not just let Auckland infect the whole country. (sorry Auckland).

  3. pat 3
    23 October 2021 at 8:22 am

    "We have a curious dialogue which implicitly equates Māori with the lower classes, drawing attention to their low incomes, their poverty, their unemployment, their poor health, housing and life prospects and their high incarceration rates. All true on average, but demeaning to many Māori, who have good jobs, decent incomes, reasonable health, their own homes and high social status and who are proud of their culture. It is true there are proportionally fewer of them than for Pakeha, but it is also true that there are many more Pakeha in total who are low in the socioeconomic ranking"

    https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/vaccinating-the-underclass

    An underclass typically unconsidered by the powers that be…..and that underclass continues to grow.

    • miravox 3.1
      23 October 2021 at 9:19 am

      I’ve a lot of time for Brian Easton but I do wish he (and others) could find a different word for the group of people they label the underclass.

      I like that he continues to highlight that there a plenty of Pākehā that belong to this group and plenty of Māori who don’t.

      I spend quite a lot of time wondering why Pākehā in this group are ignored and have come to the conclusion that academics, politicians and other ‘thought leaders’ are racist or paternalistic believing that only (and all) Māori are this disengaged from society. And if they believe Pākehā are similarly disengaged, they also believe Pākehā have the means to get themselves out of a hole – personal responsibility and all that, or are disgusted that these people are letting the [Pākehā] side down so render them not worthy or invisible.

      For the rest of us, thinking the ‘underclass is only Māori, that’s just shoving people in a box and equating ‘most of’ with ‘all’. We spend too much time categorising.

      • pat 3.1.1
        23 October 2021 at 10:03 am

        "I spend quite a lot of time wondering why Pākehā in this group are ignored and have come to the conclusion that academics, politicians and other ‘thought leaders’ are racist or paternalistic believing that only (and all) Māori are this disengaged from society."

        I suspect it has more to do with the lack of consideration (understanding)….the 'underclass" (of all ethnicities) are dismissed as unimportant, indeed something to be 'tolerated' for the necessity of the labours they perform….the reality is our society is driven by and for the elites.

      • Gezza 3.1.2
        23 October 2021 at 10:33 am

        Hear hear. I find this curious too.

      • Sabine 3.1.3
        23 October 2021 at 11:46 am

        Very much like the old saying goes, if all hte poor people would see each other as poor and neglected first and different races/religions/sex last they could band together as poor people and maybe even bring about change. But then, divide and conquer is the current model and it seems to be working quite well.

        • garibaldi 3.1.3.1
          23 October 2021 at 12:00 pm

          Time and again Sabine we have counted on the poor etc to get the Left over the line at election time and every time they stay away in droves. They are just not engaged in politics, and the Right know it.

          • Sabine 3.1.3.1.1
            23 October 2021 at 12:09 pm

            lol, and the poor vote for the right.

            It is funny though, that the non voters that i know are well to do, white people in nice houses in nice areas.

            Maybe neither the left nor the right has anything to offer to the poor?

            the left, thinly applied empathy for a few deserving poor, a few pennies here and there when the visuals are too upsetting (kids living in vans or hovels), when it gets to cold and Nan can either eat or heat, etc etc. But no change what so ever. Try being an unemployed women in NZ who has a partner who still has an income, no matter how long you worked, no matter how much taxes you paid, you won't be getting a penny from Winz. Cause……surely your partner will give you some pin money and a daily feed. Thanks left of NZ.

            the right, thickly applied 'can't be bothered at all' with most beneficiaries, as their list of the deserving poor is even shorter then that of the left. Lets cut the benefits, or not incresae them. Bootstraps for bootless people is the best they can offer.

            Why on earth would any one in NZ who is poor, by unemployment, by unlucky draw of the health card, by sex – single women with children are pretty much the poorest in nz vote for the duopoly that is the political landscape in NZ? Oh to rubberstamp either party into existance?

            Lol.

            Maybe the left really needs to come to grips that the giveaway for one electric car (for the very rich of this country – cause one has to be rich to afford a new 35 000 NZD vehicle – at the low end that one) is more in one give away then the poor got over the last 5 years.

          • Pete 3.1.3.1.2
            23 October 2021 at 1:07 pm

            18% didn't vote in the last election. Who were they?

            In the US with all the hullabaloo around the 2020 election and the candidates and NZ$19 billion spent on the campaigns, there was a record voter turnout but that was only 67%.

            They analyse to the nth degree who did and didn't vote.

        • miravox 3.1.3.2
          23 October 2021 at 3:53 pm

          Yeah, I think so – economically marginalised Maori and economically marginalised Pākehā live in the same space, shop in the same places etc. Supporting one group and not the other creates division. Why on earth would the group that is left behind vote for a party that doesn’t see them?

          It's no surprise that Te Paati Māori has MPs from Rotorua and Taranaki – and good on them. If only their party and the Labour party had enough in common to work together to bring about change for all the economically marginalised.

          Economically marginalised Pākehā have yet to find a party that cares about their lives. Maybe they need a Trump or a Boris if Labour won't do it – their lives seem to be rock bottom, but at least they can shaft the centre-left. But what a disaster that would be for the rest of us.

    • Patricia Bremner 3.2
      23 October 2021 at 9:27 am

      Yes, I think women and singles are the bottom of most heaps, and if you are brown, even harder. Smart Asians anglicised their names to get past hiring agencies. That tells about bias. A great number of women will have lost part time or service positions lately, those favoured when they have a younger family.

      As many office workers work from home office cleaners are not required, work cafeterias and cafes close, as firms make choices to work around covid.

      Though covid has stripped away some pretensions about which functions in society are essential, those living alone are disadvantaged, as two incomes are needed to survive, one is often penury .We need to remember that and pay better rates for those part time service positions many younger and older citizens supplement income with.

      • pat 3.2.1
        23 October 2021 at 10:17 am

        As with there being no need to distinguish ethnicity, gender and partnership status are superfluous….there is perhaps only one delineation required…the 'deserving' and 'undeserving'…the former being those who labour as opposed to those who do not.

        • miravox 3.2.1.1
          23 October 2021 at 4:09 pm

          As with there being no need to distinguish ethnicity, gender and partnership status are superfluous….there is perhaps only one delineation required…the 'deserving' and 'undeserving'…the former being those who labour as opposed to those who do not

          I have to disagree. Ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation and partnership status are all important. People may all be in similar dire situations but they may have different priorities and require different strategies to have the situations they live in improved.

          It seems that there's a limited pot of empathy and caring (as well as money) that gets swapped from one group to the next and back again. While the well-off get bribed with tax cuts, and the wealth gap continues to widen. They governments for the well-off give up nothing for the economically marginalised and they can do so because the economically marginalised are labelled the "underclass", which is wrapped in stereotyped culture of personal failings that leaves them supposedly 'undeserving'.

          the 'deserving' and 'undeserving'…the former being those who labour as opposed to those who do not

          This is just so wrong, or are you being cynical and it's gone way over my head?

          • Patricia Bremner 3.2.1.1.1
            23 October 2021 at 5:00 pm

            Yes Miravox, I was thinking of my hard working cousin, who at 58 has few reserves, no home and is a grande' mal epileptic. She works in the "care industry" lives in as she has no home. After leaving a drug addled husband she brought up two great kids, they also rent. One in NSW and one in Auckland. She has not seen her children for two years as she works in Levin.

            Then there is our nephew in NSW. He is in construction, has developed a fungal lung infection from timber he was working with. His wife left him and his share of things did not stretch to a home. He has been unable to work and is thankful for excellent medical treatment, but he too has a bleak future outlook.

            A friend who helps me with the heavy cleaning once a fortnight, is juggling 5 part time jobs a sick husband and a 98 year old father.

            Our son is awaiting 3 different surgical procedures in QLD, the prep for which needs dye tests to decide what part gets cut away next. He has had surgery delayed 3 times through covid. (Anne I see you heart )So we have wee home but may have to do something drastic if things get really bad for him. How these situations work out for people with nothing and no hope who are called critical cruel unjust labels .. well "There but for the Grace…" OK some people are silly anti and misguided. But they are us. Our best and our worst.

            None of these people I spoke of go without food, they are all hard workers when well, but none of them have been able to do more than keep afloat in normal times..then along came covid to add to their stress and problems.

            I could tell 7 or 8 more stories like that, and I think the system is geared to two incomes.

            Singles or people with a sick or unemployed partner are disadvantaged, and women more so because of the pay gap.

            Also these days people need enough money for internet 'phone laptop rent and food. I feel the idea of a BUI is more appealing by the day, if it was near the level of the pension.

            No doubt someone will say "We can't afford it" Wellbeing requires it.

          • pat 3.2.1.1.2
            23 October 2021 at 5:39 pm

            It is a descriptive comment, not a judgement.

            Whether it has gone over your head I cannot say….the point is how our society functions is determined by the wants of the elites not the needs of the whole, and much of what is debated on sites such as this is mere distraction from that fact…and that serves only one group.

            • swordfish 3.2.1.1.2.1
              23 October 2021 at 7:14 pm

              .

              Yep … you've hit the nail squarely on the head.

              As true of an affluent power-hungry Woke as it is of the Neo-Liberal Right.

            • McFlock 3.2.1.1.2.2
              23 October 2021 at 7:39 pm

              Keeping the wide goal in mind is essential, but so is looking at the subdivisions within the overarching delineation. These subdivisions involve different aspects of their creation and the way to overcome the inequities that result from that. Those differences sometimes require more than just a specific focus, they require effort on our part to realise the lenses we use to look at something often have filters installed by our place in society.

              These are not distractions, any more than using the right tool for a job is a distraction. Sometimes you can fix everything with a hammer, sometimes it takes actual knowledge of what you're doing and the right tools to do it.

            • miravox 3.2.1.1.2.3
              24 October 2021 at 7:22 am

              It is a descriptive comment, not a judgement.

              I was unable to read your meaning in the comment. But that's fair enough.

              I agree that out society functions by the needs of the elite. I believe we can work to ease the problems of the people disadvantaged by that as well as working to change the system. I fear not doing that will lead to overthrow of the current elite that will hurt more people and in the end just install a different elite because we haven't actually learned how not to have an elite.

        • Patricia Bremner 3.2.1.2
          23 October 2021 at 10:16 pm

          That is a very Victorian view of the poor. Deserving and undeserving.

          I believe that we are able to change things… getting bitter and putting labels on the haves is the same trap as putting labels on the poor. Those labels stop us seeing our common humanity… Our stories give us points of real connection, otherwise it is notional.

    • Foreign waka 3.3
      23 October 2021 at 4:08 pm

      Its called divide and conquer. In the end it is this tit for tat, to and fro, low level disputes that keeps the unwashed masses ruminating in their little "class war" and all the while the carpet of protective law for all is pulled under all.

      It needs a good minds, honest debate and an open ear and heart to understand and to prevent. Right now many have lost their compass and holding on to all those ideas that look like establishing balance but all it does is fanning hate and revenge. Some truly enjoying this and crime waves increase, being placated as the disadvantaged take their share and the law for all is “wrong”. The next generation will not just have to battle climate change, there is something more at stake.

      • pat 3.3.1
        23 October 2021 at 5:43 pm

        " The next generation will not just have to battle climate change, there is something more at stake."

        Indeed, but I fear they will be no more successful than the current generation….we are a slow to learn species.

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    23 October 2021 at 8:38 am

    Having trouble breathing? It's all them bits of plastic you're breathing in. https://thespinoff.co.nz/science/21-10-2021/is-it-a-bird-is-it-a-plane-no-its-millions-of-tiny-bits-of-plastic-above-our-heads/

    So "scientists estimate that around half the plastic in the air is smaller than 5mm (the definition of a microplastic), with some in the nano-, or less than one micrometre, size range. That means there may be way more plastic in the air that this latest study didn’t account for."

    Beijing, for example, is recorded as having concentrations of more than 5,500 bits of plastic per cubic metre… What’s more clear though is how horrible airborne microplastics can be for human health. They can lead to breathlessness, crackly breathing, developing cancer or might just literally cut you up from the inside out.

    But don't worry, be happy! Them bits of plastic can't really compete with Delta because their invasion technique is too random.

  5. Dennis Frank 5
    23 October 2021 at 9:24 am

    Seven students are suing a Texas school district over its dress-code policy banning boys from having long hair… According to its dress code policy, boys cannot wear their hair over their eyes, past the bottom of their ears, or past the bottom of a dress shirt collar.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59013608

    Bad enough having to wear a dress shirt, eh? But good on the Texans for taking a belated stand against Beatlemania. The mop-top look was grossly uncool to those of us who were serious about long hair.

    The suit, filed by the American Civil Liberties Union of Texas (ACLU) on Thursday on behalf of the students, argues the school district "imposed immense and irreparable harm… solely because of these students' gender".

    It details a number of punishments given to the students – six boys and one non-binary child – for wearing long hair. One, a nine-year-old identified as AC, is Latino, and wears his hair long like his father and uncle as a part of his family's heritage, the suit says. Another, an 11-year-old identified as TM, is non-binary and has worn long hair as a "critical component" of their gender expression. Both have been subjected to punishments including suspension, denial of extracurricular activities and separation from their peers.

    Hope they fight it to the Supreme Court, and Trump realises it's a golden opportunity to raise his waning profile. He ought to bankroll them. We see his hair creeping back over his collar on a regular basis. Fab way to reinforce his model rebel political praxis. Voters would recognise that it gives him authenticity.

  6. chris T 6
    23 October 2021 at 9:33 am

    Just out of interest

    Does anyone on here happen to be in the govt business and know if these vax cert's are going to be a physical thing or just something added to the covid app' like a QR code which when scanned shows fully vaxed?

    Because if physical it will be a logistical nightmare. If the later an actually good idea.

    • Sabine 6.1
      23 October 2021 at 9:46 am

      it should be both.

      And consider also the idea – as portrayed in many a movies – no QRcode no passing from one sector to the next.

      Ideally all that is needed for businesses is a certification like with the health rating. All staff are vaccinated hang that cert into your business window. Done. Unless we really are starting to advocate a society where every move must be on some app.

    • Maurice 6.2
      23 October 2021 at 9:47 am

      Needs to be both as many do not have devices which do "APPS" indeed many cannot afford the connectivity required to run the devices. Try keeping connected without the ability to pay for all this connection. Run out of "minutes" and no access is also a problem that can only be mitigated by physical paper.

      The whole concept is fatally flawed.

      • chris T 6.2.1
        23 October 2021 at 9:56 am

        Yeah that is a good point.

        Can't afford smart phone? Sorry, not welcome, with my QR thinking. Bit dim on my part.

        Agree, has to be both.

        Personally I would also get both, as have a pre pay, with sheds of data, stuff all call time, but the monthly renewal always runs out with me not remembering to top up, and for a few days I’m carrying round a pretty pointless piece of plastic lol

        • KJT 6.2.1.1
          23 October 2021 at 11:44 am

          With the current APP, a data connection is not required for it to work..

          • chris T 6.2.1.1.1
            23 October 2021 at 11:57 am

            True I guess if it is a QR type thing. But it would still require a smart phone to display QR.

            But if you can use a physical card as well that would alleviate that issue

            • KJT 6.2.1.1.1.1
              24 October 2021 at 9:25 am

              Drivers licence type makes more sense to me.

              Hopefully we can dispense with ID cards, again, when covid is sorted out.

    • Red Blooded One 6.3
      23 October 2021 at 10:53 am

      You don't have to be "in the Govt Business" to know the answer. At one of the daily Press Conferences it was very specific it IS both. It can be on your phone or you can carry a hard copy around with you. I hope that clears it up for you Chris T, we wouldn't want to inadvertently cast doubt where doubt doesn't exist. Cheers

      • Ed 6.3.1
        23 October 2021 at 11:06 am

        Some people struggle with simple instructions.

      • chris T 6.3.2
        23 October 2021 at 11:54 am

        You kind of do as they are rolling it out.

        And I don’t like many people watch every news conference.

        Maybe they could. I don’t know. Make it f’ing clearer how it will work?

        • Red Blooded One 6.3.2.1
          23 October 2021 at 1:31 pm

          Seems pretty f'ing clear to me.

          From the covid19 website under Vaccination Certificate it specifically states

          "There will be options available for people who do not have a smartphone or access to a computer"

          Perhaps if you have any other f'ing questions you might find the answers there. Unless you are fomenting f'ing mischief. Egg!

          • chris T 6.3.2.1.1
            23 October 2021 at 2:25 pm

            I think I will walk away from this convo' as it is getting obvious you do not get my point.

            This is probably my fault for not expressing it properly, as not the greatest when it comes to typed conversations. So woouldn't be a first.

            And if it carries on I will be the one who ends up suspended for months for not expressing myself well enough

            smiley

            All good.

  7. francesca 7
    23 October 2021 at 10:34 am

    It may be that many of those who are vaccine averse will not be persuaded otherwise.

    Instead of further incentives/disincentives, why not look at other strategies

    Namely what has been used in countries where wide roll outs of the vaccine have not been possible .

    Those testing positive in early stages have been sent home with home treatment kits, monitored and re tested , with very good results. Not a clinical trial, but good epidemiological data

    Chris Leitch of Social Credit has advocated this, and includes that data for reference.

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE2110/S00137/call-for-treatment-kits-to-be-issued-to-home-isolatees.htm

    I think it should be looked at, instead of the increasing divisiveness and futility in attempts to educate resistant people into accepting the vaccine.

    The Principle Oxford study must be due out soon

    https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-06-23-ivermectin-be-investigated-possible-treatment-covid-19-oxford-s-principle-trial

    Professor Chris Butler, from the University Oxford’s Nuffield Department of Primary Care Health Sciences, Joint Chief Investigator of the PRINCIPLE trial, said, ‘Ivermectin is readily available globally, has been in wide use for many other infectious conditions so it’s a well-known medicine with a good safety profile, and because of the early promising results in some studies it is already being widely used to treat COVID-19 in several countries. By including ivermectin in a large-scale trial like PRINCIPLE, we hope to generate robust evidence to determine how effective the treatment is against COVID-19, and whether there are benefits or harms associated with its use.’

    At least we now know that ivermectin at 12 mg has a good safety profile.Worth a trial at least.
    Of course there may still be hardliners who won’t accept any pharmaceutical, but I am seeing a lot of anti vaxxers who are only resistant to the MRNA vaccine.
    Treatment packs may be more realistic than waiting for Novovax

    • RedLogix 7.1
      23 October 2021 at 11:11 am

      Ivermectin became a litmus test – not so much as whether it worked or not because I'm willing to accept that the umpire is still out on that question – but because the Big Pharma 'there is no alternative to vaccines' narrative so blatantly attempted to discredit it.

      Those of us who have consistently advocated that we should be intelligently trialing every possible tool have naturally been suspicious of this from the outset, a suspicion only inflamed by the vax only crowd vilifying and othering those whose conscience or beliefs led them to be hesitant or reject this narrow plan.

      If nothing else we should have learned from the antibiotic resistance story, that if we impose a single narrow evolutionary pressure on any organism – it will likely find ways to evade that tool – no matter how promising. We've already seen this starting to happen with COVID vaccines. The correct way to avoid this mistake is not to mindlessly double down with more and more booster vaccines, but to be open to multiple different approaches with mutually exclusive mechanisms.

      • francesca 7.1.1
        23 October 2021 at 11:29 am

        I think also the difficulty with ivermectin is that the studies have been so small, and many crappy. To do a big study with all the bells and whistles requires money.

        No pharmaceutical company is interested in giving grants to a study that will not result in profits. Ivermectin is out of patent, easily produced , therefore cheap.

        If not ivermectin other antivirals could be considered.

        I agree with you, all this one way stuff is frustrating.

        • RedLogix 7.1.1.1
          23 October 2021 at 11:43 am

          I think also the difficulty with ivermectin is that the studies have been so small, and many crappy.

          That worried me less than the detractors would have it. Ivermectin would not be the first drug to have been successfully re-purposed based on small, crappy clinical trials. Those who have demanded that the only acceptable evidence would be a large, gold standard – and yes very expensive – RCT, conveniently overlook that medical progress has never relied on these alone. Decades of experience with meta-analysis has probably driven more innovation in medicine than RCT's.

          Still ultimately we have to hope that eventually the blatant agendas and politics gets out of the way and we get to see some fully trusted data – and on that the Ivermectin story will live or die.

          • francesca 7.1.1.1.1
            23 October 2021 at 2:04 pm

            Thanks for that info.Was not aware, but then of course many drugs have been successfully repurposed.Like aspirin, first used for fever reduction and pain relief, then many years later as a blood thinner.

            • Ed1 7.1.1.1.1.1
              23 October 2021 at 11:43 pm

              Thalidomide was a successfully re-purposed drug too – at least for a short time until it was found not to be successful . . .

          • swordfish 7.1.1.1.2
            23 October 2021 at 4:02 pm

            .

            Yep … you're both pretty much bang-on … as reasonable, thoughtful, fair-minded, easy-going people on the Left often are … as opposed to both Woke hysterics & Clintonista melodramatics … in terms of the latter: horse de-wormers, convergence moonbats, Donald Trump, anti-vaxxers & various other guilt-by-association rhetorical strategies designed to demonize a potentially promising & inexpensive re-purposed antiparasitic drug that could save many lives … on & on ad nauseam …

        • psych nurse 7.1.1.2
          23 October 2021 at 1:11 pm

          The difficulty with Ivermectin is that it has become so parasite resistant it is no longer used as an animal wormer, I guess the manufacturers have to peddle their wares somehow some where.

      • garibaldi 7.1.2
        23 October 2021 at 12:14 pm

        "If nothing else we should have learned from”(RL 11.11am); the fact that diet is extremely important if you want a sound immune system. As a nation we shoud be totally ashamed at the general lousy health of the majority of NZers. For example it is a fact that the majority of NZ are on the verge of scurvy because of inadequate vitamin C intake. Guess which vitamin is essential for a robust immune system.?

        Endless consumption of takeaways and junk,overprocessed food and sugary drinks doesn't take long to compromise your defences.

        • RedLogix 7.1.2.1
          23 October 2021 at 12:25 pm

          Yes. In the longer run I suspect COVID will force us to re-think the whole public health story. The correlation with so called 'co-morbidities' has been obvious from the outset – yet relatively few people have been willing to openly ask the question 'how come we're so sick in the first place'?

          The 'crush the curve' narrative to prevent our hospitals from being overwhelmed is all very well in the short term, but fails to ask why diseases like diabetes, cardio-vascular illnesses, dementia, depression and anxiety already threaten to overwhelm them COVID or not.

          Another aspect that’s been completely overlooked is the poor quality of so much of our indoor ventilation, creating ideal environments for an air borne virus to spread. There’s another tool the 90% plus vax crowd won’t want to mention.

          • Ad 7.1.2.1.1
            23 October 2021 at 1:01 pm

            I am most impressed with the tight narrowing of political and media discussion about a broader view of society beyond health.

            We've got out of COVID outbreaks three times in New Zealand, and zero politicians or strong media commentators are asking:

            What kind of country do we really want and can change to achieve?

            – A different approach to work, when we continue to be one of the most state-subsidised wage economies in the world?

            – A different approach to transport and travel, when so much of it has proven unnecessary?

            – A different approach to digital news aggregators, when they have been shown to be the enemy of life-saving truth?

            – A different approach to the marginalised, when their lives have never been more magnified for society?

            – A different approach to Maori and Pasifika health organisations, when they have proven their superior reach and delivery from the singular state?

            – A different approach to retirement savings and public employment insurance, when crises are now besetting our lives faster and faster every decade?

            – A different approach to the best we can hope for our children, when travel for adventure or study is going to be rare, and may mean they don't come back for years?

            New Zealand is a place where David Seymour looks like a leading public intellectual and James Shaw's support is heading for 6% within a globally huge year for climate change.

            • RedLogix 7.1.2.1.1.1
              23 October 2021 at 1:16 pm

              All very good questions with many posts worth of discussion to be had. Yet if I can discern one thing they may all have in common, is just what role do we want in having the state drive these questions as contrasted to the individual and the community?

              Going back to public health for example, I could imagine the state might devise an excellent public food system that compelled people to eat only from a state sanctioned diet that was officially deemed to be 'healthy'. And as effective as this might be in terms of improving health, it would be rightly rejected as an insane imposition into our personal lives – for all sorts of other reasons.

              But this does not mean the state should give up on getting us all leaner, fitter and a bit meaner either. The trick is inspiring change while utilising the least necessary amount of force necessary.

              (Principle of Least Action. A fundamental idea in physics that has it's analogy in politics as well.)

            • Robert Guyton 7.1.2.1.1.2
              23 October 2021 at 3:52 pm

              "and may mean they don't come back for years?"

              Isn't that how it's always been…well, pre-facebook/messenger/email/ticki-tocki-etc..?
              “Hi mum – I’m in the Congo/greasy grey Limpopo River etc…)

            • Foreign waka 7.1.2.1.1.3
              23 October 2021 at 5:08 pm

              Ad,
              This is because if you want an inclusive government, don't shut anybody out as it is done now (no matter what color, race, etc.) and have unlawful behavior sanctioned. The majority of people want a cohesive, just society whilst we seem to be heading to Mad Max #3. The green party has not delivered anything that is doable in the wider sense and does not create more toxic rubbish (batteries of electric cars) Just putting platitudes out will not do. I really miss Jeanette Fitzsimons and Rod Donald, Russel Norman. They steered a focused course.

          • Sabine 7.1.2.1.2
            23 October 2021 at 1:12 pm

            Maybe we make dentistry affordable again. All the good food in the world is of no use when you have no teeth to chew.

            And fwiw, junkfood is very soft, and needs almost no chewing, or can be gummed down.

        • higherstandard 7.1.2.2
          23 October 2021 at 12:54 pm

          "For example it is a fact that the majority of NZ are on the verge of scurvy because of inadequate vitamin C intake. "

          This is neither a fact nor is it remotely true.

  8. georgecom 8
    23 October 2021 at 11:07 am

    I am generally in favour of the traffic light road map announced on Friday morning. There is one obvious flaw however in the system, the fate of the Waikato region.

    Auckland at alert level 3 will shift to the new traffic light system when they reach 90% double vaccination. Fair enough, they have been through a lot and done a lot of 'heavy lifting'. The South Island might also move when they all reach 90%. They will have done the right thing and can migrate across.

    The Waikato is currently at alert level 3, daily covid numbers have me wondering if the virus will be stamped out in our rohe or whether we will continue in the level 3 twilight zone. the Waikato is doing it's share of the heavy lifting as well now. By my calculations it will be only behind Auckland in terms of weeks in Levels 3&4 lockdowns.

    Should this area be stuck in level 3 I think the same provisions given to Auckland need to apply here as well. Once we have reached 90% double vaxed we transition to the new traffic light system. If that option is not given to the Waikato, we face the inequity of sitting at level 3 waiting for all other DHBs to do the right thing. However those areas stay at level 2 and the Waikato at level 3. That wait will be pretty unfair.

    In order to get to 90% the Waikato will need to have our less vaccinated populations – maori and pasifika – much better vaccinated. That's what it will take to get to 90%, such is the ethnic make up of the region, it won't be pakeha alone getting us there. So no one ethnicity will be 'left behind'. We currently have a level 3 border within the Waikato so moving to the traffic light system with a DHB wide border will not make a substantive difference. The border will simply enlarge. If we can be trusted to have a 'soft' border now, we can be trusted to have a 'soft' border under the new traffic lights.

    Thus, if we cannot soon stamp out covid in the Waikato, and it becomes entrenched, then the provision must be made available to Waikato to join the likes of Auckland to transition to the traffic light system when we reach 90% double vaccinated, rather than wait for the rest of the country. We can have the same restrictions placed on us, like a border. It will allow us to control our own fate and avoid the risk of the Waikato being the only area stuck in level 3 and waiting for everyone else to get to 90%. Or, put it another way, the Waikato wants the ability to control it's own fate to get out of Level 3, not rely on the Sandra Goudies and Pembroke Birds of other areas.

    • alwyn 8.1
      23 October 2021 at 12:12 pm

      Why should having had Covid 19 in your community in the past have anything to do with whether you should be locked up in the future? Why free up Auckland but keep restrictions in Christchurch just because Auckland had a Covid infection in the past but Christchurch didn't?

      I personally think that the whole silly scheme is going to collapse shortly after the drop the level in Auckland down the traffic light scale. Do you really think that the people in DHB areas with high vaccination levels are going to tolerate have to put up with irksome restrictions just because people living hundreds of kilometres away happen to live in an arbitrarily defined area, ie another DHB area, that has lower levels of vaccination?

      Like hell they will. That is when the Government, although it contains a lot of JAFAs, is going to be reminded that more than 2/3 of the voters do NOT live in Auckland and you offend them all at your peril. They, the Government, won't admit that they got it wrong of course. They will simply change tack and tell us that it was our fault for misunderstanding their plans and that they really meant something quite different.

      • georgecom 8.1.1
        23 October 2021 at 1:28 pm

        sound essentially like you are supporting what I have said.

        Auckland is doing the right thing and will get out of level 3 to the traffic light system at 90% vaccination. South Island will go from level 2 to the traffic lights at 90%.

        The outlier will be the Waikato. In case you have missed the news, we are at LEVEL 3. If the outbreak cannot be stamped out we run the risk of remaining here for weeks on end – 3 weeks already. We did the Level 4 & 3 with the rest of the country, had a shortish period at level 2, now back to level 3.

        When Auckland migrates, the Waikato might be the ONLY area left at level 3. The logical thing then is to treat us like Auckland, allow us to migrate to the traffic lights when WE reach 90% vaccination rate. If that involves a boundary around the Waikato all good and fine. We have that already so no big difference. That way we will not be locked at level 3 and dependent on other DHBs getting to 90% before WE can migrate to the traffic lights. We can go there when we are ready, the other areas enjoying level 2 can migrate to the traffic lights when they have got themselves in order.

        • alwyn 8.1.1.1
          23 October 2021 at 2:23 pm

          No, I am not agreeing with you. The first thing is that you say that "South Island will go from level 2 to the traffic lights at 90%". This MAY happen for the SI in isolation but it is only promised if every other DHB has got to 90%. They simply haven't stated the SI option of going early as anything other than a possibility.

          The second, and more significant thing, is that you say that the Waikato should be allowed to migrate to the traffic lights when WE reach 90%. By WE I assume you mean the Waikato, not all DHBs. I want to know why the Waikato can do that but not, say, my own area of Wellington. Why do you say that Wellington can't go to the traffic light system if perhaps the Lakes DHB district hasn't reached 90% but Wellington has? Why should we have to wait for the bottom of the South Island but you don't?

          And I am afraid that saying that you are suffering now doesn't cut it. These gradings are meant to be for health reasons, not because you were unlucky enough to have Covid cases at a time when we didn't.

          I wouldn't bet on any of the proposal being fixed of course. The people making the decisions are politicians and they are making them based only on what they see as the politics of the matter. Pissing off 2/3 of the voters in the country, and seeing any chance of staying in office vanishing will concentrate their minds in a quite amazing manner. You will notice that any talk of relying on the "experts" has become so yesterday-ish?

          • Ad 8.1.1.1.1
            23 October 2021 at 2:44 pm

            Don't worry Alwyn COVID is coming to your town.

            It's not an Auckland disease. We've simply given the rest of the country time to prepare.

          • georgecom 8.1.1.1.2
            23 October 2021 at 3:11 pm

            Why you ask?

            pretty simply really, you are at level 2 and have been for the past 3 weeks.

            we are at level 3 and have been for the past 3 weeks and looks like we might well be for some more weeks yet.

            if you want to introduce covid back into Wellington and spend a number of weeks at level 3 in order to have the option I have discussed, go for it.

            What would you rather have though, stay at level 2 for a number of weeks waiting for other DHBs, or, have a number of weeks at level 3 and have the option of moving to the traffic light system when your region gets to 90%. Which of those 2 scenarios are more palatable for you?

            For us with covid now seeming digging itself in, and if that continues I want the option of us being able to control our own destinies. If we have to wait for every other area to get to 90% before we leave level 3 and migrate to the traffic lights as Auckland will be soon, then every other DHB should go to level 3 as well. We all wait and we all have the SAME lock down situation. If you don't like that idea then it's pretty simple, you can stay at level 2 and we can translate to the traffic lights.

            • alwyn 8.1.1.1.2.1
              23 October 2021 at 8:54 pm

              There, there.

              I'm not going to debate with you any longer tonight. You, and the rest of the Waikato will by now be in mourning for their defeat by the Magnificent Magpies.

              My consolations. As a Bay boy myself I feel for you. Well just a little bit. Aw, why lie about it. Come on The Bay!!!!!!!!!!

  9. Cricklewood 9
    23 October 2021 at 11:11 am

    Anyone seen anything about when the passport system is actually going to be ready?

    Wondering if something went wrong with it because it sound like it was really close a few weeks ago…

    • alwyn 9.1
      23 October 2021 at 12:19 pm

      They offered something about a month ago that would provide you with a record of your vaccination status. You were supposed to be able to get an e-mail or a posted response.

      To see how prepared they were my wife and I responded. My wife asked for an e-mail, and got a response within a couple of days. I asked for the mail option and I am still waiting. It will be 4 weeks on Monday. I fear the scheme is no better organised that all the other activities of this mob of incompetent idiots we have for a Government.

      • Patricia Bremner 9.1.1
        23 October 2021 at 1:41 pm

        Alwyn, Could you suggest something better? Or is brickbats all you have?

        Constructive criticism welcome.

      • roblogic 9.1.2
        23 October 2021 at 1:46 pm

        N.B. The current MPs do not personally organise your health records. This would be a function of the chronically underfunded public service and even more dysfunctional and broken health system.

        You have no clue about the technical challenges involved in standing up a nation-wide secure system that validates all its users, supports all sorts of client devices, and integrates with the rest of government.

        • AB 9.1.2.1
          23 October 2021 at 4:58 pm

          You have no clue about the technical challenges …

          No of course he doesn't – but he's not interested in engaging with reality, his motivations are all located somewhere else.

          I think getting the vaccine passport software ready, properly tested to handle the probably myriad marginal (non-standard) use cases, secure, load-tested etc. is a real risk to the transition to the traffic light system.

          There are two places I wouldn't like to be working now – Counties-Manukau DHB, or the development team for the vaccine passport system.

      • Macro 9.1.3
        23 October 2021 at 1:47 pm

        Vaccination certificates

        There will be different vaccination certificates depending on whether you are using them within New Zealand, or for international travel. The QR codes will be different, and your international certificate will have more personal information.

        You will be able to either print or save the QR codes on your smartphone in your Apple Wallet or Google Pay.

        Domestic digital vaccination certificate

        From the end of November, everyone in New Zealand will be able to access a digital vaccination certificate. This will include a QR code, which you can print or save to your phone.

        You may be required to show this as proof of vaccination in a range of public settings. This could include:

        • events
        • hospitality
        • retail
        • sport
        • faith-based gatherings.

        Requiring vaccination certificates will be optional for many locations.

        You will not be required to show proof of vaccination to access supermarkets, pharmacies, health services, food banks and petrol stations.

        There will be options available for people who do not have a smartphone or access to a computer.

        • alwyn 9.1.3.1
          23 October 2021 at 2:28 pm

          Manana. Tomorrow they promise this. I was testing what they had said was available a month ago and it hasn't happened yet. When will they actually come up with something I was told I could get at the end of last month?

        • chris T 9.1.3.2
          23 October 2021 at 2:35 pm

          Sounds pretty good. As long as it is properly security checked and rolled out and not rushed through.

          From a purely selfish point of you hope they are taking Huawei's into account.

          Probably are.

          If not, sounds like you just join the no smartphone lot which, while annoying, is reasonable.

          • Macro 9.1.3.2.1
            23 October 2021 at 2:43 pm

            I gather that the proposal is that for those without smart phones or access to such technology the paper certificates will be available through GPs. They have access to NHI's.

            what is stored on the QR code.

            How we record your vaccination

            When you get vaccinated, we record the details in the national COVID-19 Immunisation Register (CIR).

            This includes:

            • your name, birth date, gender and National Health Index (NHI) number
            • your address and contact details
            • details about the vaccination/s you receive
            • any reactions you have to the vaccine.

            The CIR will also record if you decide not to get a COVID-19 vaccine.

        • Koff 9.1.3.3
          23 October 2021 at 2:40 pm

          Sounds like our Aussie ones. We have Medicare issued vaccination certificates with no QR code, just names, Medicare numbers and details of the 2 Astrazeneca jabs with batch identification and who did the jabbing. We also have 'international' vaccination certs that have what the normal ones have as well as our NZ passport numbers on and a QR code with, presumably encrypted info of vaccine status, passport identification etc. We can print them off or show them on a tablet or smartphone. Haven't had a chance to use them yet with interborder travel across Oz even more of a dilemma than it is across NZ. We are in Queensland which miraculously seems to have avoided the plague rampaging over the border and has only had a few small outbreaks. The only problem is that it has made Queenslanders complacent. I haven't seen a mask in months, and the vaccination uptake here, like other Covid free states, has been slow – seems it takes the arrival of Delta to frighten most into getting the jab.

  10. Gezza 10
    23 October 2021 at 11:24 am

    Norwegian Forest Cat. Close up he looks like a grey fluffy lion. Very large cat. Extra long claws. Waterproof fur. Avid hunter, even of ducks & other waterbirds. Suspected murderer of Aspen, Pickles, & Jojo Pook.

    https://m.imgur.com/BiMKzuk

    • Gezza 10.1
      23 October 2021 at 11:25 am

      Norwegian Forest Cat. Close up he looks like a grey fluffy lion. Very large cat. Extra kong claws. Waterproof fur. Avid hunter, even of ducks & other waterbirds. Suspected murderer of Aspen, Pickles, & Jojo Pook.

      https://m.imgur.com/BiMKzuk

      • Gezza 10.1.1
        23 October 2021 at 11:31 am

        Mod: Sorry, accidentally posted this again while editing text with 1st gif. Using my smartphone 1st time for posting. Can you just delete the copy, if possible?

      • JanM 10.1.2
        23 October 2021 at 12:52 pm

        That's sad 😥. Does he have an owner?

        • Gezza 10.1.2.1
          23 October 2021 at 3:03 pm

          Yes. The cat has a Greek name & a responsible young male owner. His owner was mortified to learn that his beautiful, very human-friendly cat was a bred-for-it apex predator who was killing birds of all sizes & kinds every single day. (I sent him a video of his cat ambushing birds on my property.)

          He was renting in my area & subsequently moved, with his cat. Ending the killings. I am a former cat-lover, & still like cats, but will have no more cats at my place. Many are just too lethal to birds.

    • mary_a 10.2
      23 October 2021 at 4:13 pm

      RIP Aspen, Pickles & Jojo Pook. That is so sad Gezza.

      • Gezza 10.2.1
        23 October 2021 at 8:13 pm

        Pickles just "disappeared". My wonderful, friendly 9 mth old Aspen I found lying dead on the far side of the stream, with otherwise not a mark on him. And my 2nd baby pook, Jojo was found lying dead in shallow water 3 m downstream from my place, also unmarked. I cried buckets over Aspen & Jojo. Really surprised me how much I grieved. I decided after this to try not to get quite so emotionally attached to the local wildlife.

  11. roblogic 11
    23 October 2021 at 11:34 am

    Further to the "Friday will Change Us"… it does feel like the world has shifted. The traffic light system is a signal of a new normal. Crisis capitalism will not save us

    https://youtu.be/WLPeRDJGKvQ

    • chris T 11.1
      23 October 2021 at 8:16 pm

      Bit over exaggeration I think.

      It is just levels, but the govt lumping the respnsibilities of moving between them on DHBs, and Ardern not having to front any more for cocking up the vaccine roll out.

      Frankly it is pathetic.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 11.1.1
        23 October 2021 at 9:40 pm

        Frankly it is pathetic.

        Aye. Whenever you find yourself in a lather about our government’s ‘shambles’ of a vaccine roll out, it may help to re-read this advice from another commenter here.

        Most of those finding anything they can to bitch about re vaccinations should look at themselves in the mirror and wonder that in the stuff-up, the oversight, the schemozzle, the disaster, at least one prick made it through.

        https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations?country=NZL~AUS

        Unite against COVID-19
        https://covid19.govt.nz

        • chris T 11.1.1.1
          23 October 2021 at 9:55 pm

          Forgive me. But I am not sure of your point. I am not bitching.

          I just pointed out the govt stuffed up the vaccine roll out.

          I don't actually care that much as the likelihood of me dying if I got it is about the same as me being hit by a bus watching TV in my lounge.

          But a bit of pull finger and actual sort it shit probably would have helped a lot of people coming up with underlying medical conditions.

          At lets not forget cancer treatments and heart ops put off.

          How many of their lifes are ok to lose because the govt screwed up the vaccine roll out btw?

        • chris T 11.1.1.2
          23 October 2021 at 10:08 pm

          Actually apologies. I meat to say

          "
          I just pointed out the govt stuffed up the vaccine roll out."…And have suicide passed their cock up to the FHB's

          (Which they are about to restructure and merge. So the people they are f'ing over will probably lose their jobs either way. Ironic"

          • Drowsy M. Kram 11.1.1.2.1
            23 October 2021 at 10:30 pm

            Forgive me. But I am not sure of your point(s).

            • chris T 11.1.1.2.1.1
              23 October 2021 at 10:44 pm

              My only points were that it seems very openly the govt have passed responsibility to "their" chosen too high (in my personal opinion 90%) target from themselves onto the DHBs

              This is quite clever and creates a no lose/big win scenario.

              They cocked up the vaccine roll out and our scrambling. If any DHBs can't meet the 90% Ardern can blame the DHB. If all DHBs hit 90% it will be Ardern getting the glory.

              All the while the DHB staff know that Ardern is restructuring their arse, merging them all atm and probablytrying to justify their job to keep it.

              It is clever manipulation by Ardern's PR people to save her arse from cocking up the vaccine roll out and giving her a shit load of people to put the blame on if it goes sour.

              As I say. I am not bitching. Think it is quite clever. But pretty nasty IMHO

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                23 October 2021 at 11:34 pm

                It is clever manipulation by Ardern's PR people to save her arse from cocking up the vaccine roll out…

                Again, if you choose to characterise Kiwis being more highly vaccinated against Covid than Aussies (when NZ currently has a couple of extra months up it's sleeves to adapt to its Delta outbreak compared to Australia), as "cocking up", then you’re beyond help, imho. Be well.

                From just some of your 35 comments here today – "cocking up", "screwed up", "stuffed up". Now that's bitching.

                They [our government] will screw it up like everything else big they have tried to organise.

                It is a stupidly high number, and purely picked to make the govt look good if they get to it.

                If they all do it and hit 90%. Hey Ardern did that. It is amazing! She's the greatest! [OK, we agree there.]

                Given their [our government's] record organisation wise. Can't see this before christmas.

                Make it f’ing clearer how it will work?

                Should have blocked the Island off ages ago to anyone that can't pass a rapid saliva test before going there, but as usual. Too slow.

                ...Ardern not having to front any more for cocking up the vaccine roll out. Frankly it is pathetic.

                I just pointed out the govt stuffed up the vaccine roll out.
                …
                How many of their lifes are ok to lose because the govt screwed up the vaccine roll out btw?

                Not that this lot [our government] will think of it.

                But she [PM Ardern] is getting a bit them and us, and will probably get worse I reckon.

                • chris T …
                  23 October 2021 at 11:41 pm

                  I look yet see nothing justifying lumping it on DHBs halway through being restructured.

                  Also missed the bit where if the vaccine was rolled out earlier we would already be on 90% probably , and she wouldn't have had to throw DHBs under the bus.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    23 October 2021 at 11:59 pm

                    I look yet see nothing justifying lumping it on DHBs halway through being restructured.

                    Haven't DHBs been responsible for implementing the vaccine roll out all along?

                    Are you bitching about our government setting a % vaccinated target [I believe business leaders, politicians and others have been calling for target to be set], or are you complaining only about the target being too high?

                    And, if 90% proves too high (which imho is unlikely, although a few months ago I wouldn't have given you tuppence for the team getting to 90%), might the government have had a reason for setting it that high?

                    • chris T …
                      24 October 2021 at 12:08 am

                      Um. No. The perception at least to me, was the govt was.

                      Hence the daily pressers.

                      As an aside. When I get caught up in these actual interactional convos on here my experience is a particular mod ends up suspending me for months on end, so do you mind if we talk about it tomorrow?

                      I think it is a personality clash thing. Probably my fault. Just realised it is starting toget to that time.

                    • chris T …
                      24 October 2021 at 12:12 am

                      Just as a leaving thing.

                      What is with the people have to be bitching to disagree with you thing?

                      I mean I just disagree

                  • Ed1 …
                    24 October 2021 at 12:03 am

                    Hindsight is wonderful – personally I thought the medical assessments to be able to convince New Zealanders that the vaccination would be safe were done very quickly, and given the excellent results we had achieved in limiting local infections, I am not surprised that other countries were less inclined to take that step and that manufacturers were prepared to sell more quickly to countries with dreadful rates of infection.

                    Our results remain very very good – the programmes of vaccination and lockdowns work together – I suspect we would have had more people getting vaccinated if, like other countries, we had a lot of deaths – is that what you believe we should have had, chris T?

                    And restructuring has barely started – those working on Covid issues will barely be affected.

                    And on a different topic, that is a wonderful quote above: "Most of those finding anything they can to bitch about re vaccinations should look at themselves in the mirror and wonder that in the stuff-up, the oversight, the schemozzle, the disaster, at least one prick made it through."

                • chris T …
                  23 October 2021 at 11:46 pm

                  BTW. Whats with the fixation with my posts and copy and paste out of context shit about dude? …. or dudette?

                  Kind of odd.

                  I mean it's cool. At least you read them.

                  Just didn't think they were that important in the grand scheme of things

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    24 October 2021 at 12:10 am

                    Glad you think it's cool too – does Pete's 'bitching prick' comment make sense now?

                    • chris T …
                      24 October 2021 at 12:18 am

                      Not really.

                      As I am not still 12 and into name calling

                      That is me for a bit. Too close to being suspended from experience

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    24 October 2021 at 12:31 am

                    That's a pity – the first time I read Pete's comment I found it LOL funny, and still get a chuckle out of it even now, although I must have read it at least a dozen times. It's just so observant.

                • chris T …
                  23 October 2021 at 11:52 pm

                  Simple question

                  As it is easier. Are you denying if the govt had rolled out the vaccine earlier we would already be at 90 % (Give or take a 1 or 2% of weirdo anti vaxers)?

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    24 October 2021 at 12:20 am

                    To be honest with you chris, I’m not sure if “we would already be at 90%” – are you? Guess you are – after all you've already stated [@11.1.1.2.1.1] that you think the 90% target is too high.

                    Which begs the question – why all your concern that we might actually reach that target? Although it would certainly be a great outcome for the team, just like the excellent Covid health outcomes that the team has achieved to date.

                    • chris T …
                      24 October 2021 at 12:48 am

                      "outcomes that the team has achieved to date."\

                      That is my complete point.

                      Ardern has switched it from "The team" to individual DHBs.

                      You seem a bright dude..dudette.

                      Even you must see that

                      Edit: And yes I think we would be at 90% by now if the govt rolled it out earlier.

                      But on the other hand personally only. Think 90% is a dumb stupidly high percentage either way

                    • chris T …
                      24 October 2021 at 1:16 am

                      By the way. As about to go to bed.

                      Yes I do think 90% is too high for the whole country.

                      Totally get only my opinion, some experts will disagree, others will agree. But just seems a tad silly to me.

                      Personally would go 85

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    24 October 2021 at 12:58 am

                    "The team" is a shortened reference to "The Team of Five Million." Are you on that team chris T?

                    Staff that run DHBs, including healthcare professionals responsible for implementing NZ's vaccine roll out, are a vital part of the team against the pandemic; always have been, and I hope they always will be. A shout out to them; please hang in there.

                    What exactly united the 'team of 5 million' to quash Covid-19?
                    The Ministry of Health's own chief science adviser, Dr Ian Town, similarly credited Bloomfield and Ardern's careful, unifying messaging from the Beehive podiums – but also the efforts of all Kiwis this year.

                    "The team of five million won the day."

                    Regarding that problematic 90% target:

                    And yes I think we would be at 90% by now if the govt rolled it out earlier.

                    But on the other hand personally only. Think 90% is a dumb stupidly high percentage either way

                    If you think that the team would have been 90% vaxxed by now with an earlier vaccine roll out, then surely a target of 90% is still acheivable. And, if that’s the case, then I can’t make sense of your choice to characterise 90% as “a dumb stupidly high percentage“.

                    • chris T …
                      24 October 2021 at 1:07 am

                      ""The team" is an shortened reference to "The Team of Five Million." Are you on the team chris T?"

                      Well funny enough, yes I am Drowsy, mate if I could carry off a short skirt and pom poms I''d be doing the cart wheels, which is why I am finding it hard for you to not get my point she dumped responsibility with vaccination numbers from her looking after her "team" (and me with pom poms) to the DHBs she is halfway through dismatilling.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    24 October 2021 at 1:48 am

                    Well funny enough, yes I am…

                    Excellent !

                    …. my point she dumped responsibility with vaccination numbers from her looking after her "team" (and me with pom poms) to the DHBs she is halfway through dismatilling.

                    DHB staff have been at the coalface of implementing the vaccine roll out since it's inception, with coordinating support from the MoH.

                    Business interests, politicians and others have been crying out for a ‘% of eligible Kiwis fully vaccinated’ target at which lockdowns will end. That target has now been set: 90%. DHBs will continue to implement the vaccine roll out, with further assistance from the MoH.

                    It’s not “her team” – it’s ‘The Team’. I don't understand what you're so agitated about.

                    How each DHB stacks up for the 90% vaccination target
                    Auckland DHB has reached 80 percent fully vaccinated and 93 percent first doses, so will exceed the 90 percent target if those people get their second dose.

                    Do you have a link about PM Ardern being "halfway through dismatilling" the DHBs? I'm interested in getting a little more detail on how far the restructuring has progressed.

            • chris T 11.1.1.2.1.2
              23 October 2021 at 10:55 pm

              Brings up another point actually. Will the govt still be restructuring the DHBs under covid for the forseeable future and after lumping them with acceptable vax percentages?

  12. JanM 12
    23 October 2021 at 12:59 pm

    I just wished a lovely friend a happy birthday on facebook. I haven't seen her for ages because she lives in Auckland. Suddenly Vera Lynn's song "We'll meet again" came into what goes for my mind these days. The song of the age again?

  13. Pingao 13
    23 October 2021 at 2:45 pm

    Reply to Chris T at 6.

    I applied for my vaccination certificate on Tuesday and received it on Friday. I asked for it to be by email, the other option being to a physical address. It was easy as. I printed out 3 copies in case the boss wants me to supply it (guaranteed that they will) so I can hoover up any extra shifts as I work as a casual. I will get the app when it appears.

    • Pingao 13.1
      23 October 2021 at 8:22 pm

      My mistake – it is a confirmation of Covid-19 vaccination letter rather than actual certificate.

      • chris T 13.1.1
        23 October 2021 at 8:29 pm

        No worries.

        That is an actual issue I think with the physical cert side of things.

        No way to send by email and print. Would have to be a non fakeable plastic thing like drivers licences, passports and cash. With unique QR codes or a chip.

        Other wise you could have printed 20 and sold them to your mates for ten bucks each with QR codes

      • chris T 13.1.2
        23 October 2021 at 8:34 pm

        Actually just further from that post. Thinking about it there is a way to fast track it off the top of my head.

        Just take the template for drivers licences they use and replace some of the wording. Already has photo and has years of unfaking tech behind already.

        It would just look a lot like your licence but different wording and a QR code added.

        Would be a shedload cheaper than creating some new template.

        Not that this lot will think of it.

      • chris T 13.1.3
        23 October 2021 at 8:43 pm

        Oh and obviously use a different coloured piece of plastic.

        Probably red for impact.

        Easy peasy lemon squeasy.

        They already print licences all day everyday, so printing machines already around ready to go.

  14. chris T 14
    23 October 2021 at 2:48 pm

    One of my left field off covid ones again.

    Been working from home. Decided why the hell am I bothering shaving? Grew beard for first time in my life. Thought I could just get it trimmed if gets too full on at the barber. Forgot barbers make you wear masks so can't trim.

    Any advice from the bearded posters for a first timer? As the full on has hit.

    Is it just small scissors and play it by ear? Or is their some secret method of buying a lady shave and doing a kind of number 3 or something?

    Don't really wan't to be mistaken for the last surviving member of ZZ Top

    • joe90 14.1
      23 October 2021 at 2:58 pm

      Hair clippers, select your comb, no 2 for me, have at it and tidy up with a razor.

      • McFlock 14.1.1
        23 October 2021 at 3:52 pm

        Ah, the covidbeard 🙂

        I got a cheap corded set of clippers from the warehouse. I already had a battery set for detail trimming, but the batteries wind down pretty quickly. Corded set is nice and quiet, but the weight and shake of the cord makes them less precise.

        • Andre 14.1.1.1
          23 October 2021 at 8:38 pm

          I've tried a beard once in my life. Stuck it out for about four months. The itching drove me bonkers, and it really wasn't any good at storing breakfast leftovers for morning tea. Never been tempted to try it again.

    • Dennis Frank 14.2
      23 October 2021 at 3:04 pm

      No problem. If you don't live near a Harvey Norman I bet they will courier it to you. Dunno about all them bits & pieces but for $24 who cares. I just use the trimmer & charger. Learning the technique of careful usage takes a wee while.

      https://www.harveynorman.co.nz/personal-care-and-health/shavers-and-trimmers/mens-shavers-and-groomers/vs-sassoon-metro-carbon-titanium-all-in-one-grooming-system.html

      I presume the titanium keeps the cutting edge sharp…

      • Bearded Git 14.2.1
        23 October 2021 at 6:18 pm

        I don't know how they can make and ship that for $24, let alone sell it for that price.

      • Blazer 14.2.2
        23 October 2021 at 7:10 pm

        I have boycotted Harvey Norman ever since they refused to pay back the $13million Govt subsidy they received ,despite record earnings and a special dividend to shareholders of 6 cents.

    • Gezza 14.3
      23 October 2021 at 3:17 pm

      I either use electric hair clippers comb 3 (9mm, I think) or just use the moustache trimmer on my electric shaver to trim the beard overall, based on previous experience of achieving satisfactory results that way too. 👍

    • Red Blooded One 14.4
      23 October 2021 at 3:23 pm

      I got a Remington from Noel Leeming recently but not sure yet I would recommend it, but as the others say, select the comb length for your own beard length. Take the comb off to do a sharp edge if you want to make it tidier. Am really looking forward, one day, to trying a hot towel beard trim at the Barbers when we can. Good luck. 👍

    • chris T 14.5
      23 October 2021 at 3:42 pm

      Thanks heaps everyone.

      She is just getting a bit raggedy

      yes

    • Robert Guyton 14.6
      23 October 2021 at 3:58 pm

      Whadda ya mean, "too full"?

  15. chris T 15
    23 October 2021 at 5:53 pm

    South Island case infected person now. Bit of downer. Should have blocked the Island off ages ago to anyone that can't pass a rapid saliva test before going there, but as usual. Too slow.

    • KJT 15.1
      23 October 2021 at 8:31 pm

      Have you heard the research stats on the reliability of National''s holy grail "Rapid saliva tests" compered with the current nasal ones?

      Especially when done by untrained people.

      Which is why they havn't featured much until now.

      Better ones are coming however.

  16. Adrian 16
    23 October 2021 at 6:21 pm

    It’s not really a SI case but a Te Awamutu one so how the hell did it get here. To the ramparts now!!! Repel the invaders!!. Going to a movie and a meal in Blenheim tonight, should have the place to myself.

  17. Adrian 17
    23 October 2021 at 8:44 pm

    Rapid saliva done by an inexperienced person is from 54% accurate. By an experienced person anywhere between 72% and 89%. The only people promoting them are the ones who own the company and Chris Bishop and JC, reminder to self, must look up the share register.

    This from an Oxford study on RNZ last week.

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