Open mike 25/08/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 25th, 2012 - 285 comments
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285 comments on “Open mike 25/08/2012 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    25 August 2012 at 6:10 am

    Terribly upset that Anders Brevik has been determined to be “sane”.

    Prosecuters demand that Brevik be ruled insane were struck down by judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen.

    ” … the court sentences the defendant to 21 years of preventive detention,” said judge Wenche Elizabeth Arntzen, dismissing the prosecutor’s call for a verdict that would have labelled Breivik insane and have confined him indefinitely to psychiatric care.

    TVNZ ONE NEWS

    Brevik grinned with pleasure at the verdict that let him know that in the opinion of his fellows he was sane.

    Racism is a sickness. And should be identified as such.

    That Brevic’s crimes were the work of a sober mind that had considered all the facts, and weighed up all the options, that Brevik had made rational (though criminal) decisions, itself defies reason. Others infected by the sickness of racism following the same chain of “logic” will find sympathy for Brevik’s “final solution.”

    The youngest selected for execution by brevik was only 14 years old. A part Maori child of dark complexion. In Europe people of dark complexion are commonly taken for Arabs. There can be little doubt that Brevik chose the beautiful and loving Sharidyn Svebakk-Bohn for death because despite her very young age she was one of the few victims who wasn’t white and so was specifically marked for death by Brevik.

    Far better to have found Brevik insane, suffering from mental illness.

    At present this “sane” man sits in a cell as a martyr for racists. Armed with a laptop Brevik is writing and answering letters and is currently engaged in writing a biography.

    Should he be stopped?

    Should his laptop be taken from him?

    In my opinion no. But he should be in a place where his illness can be professionally studied, and diagnosed, where his ravings can be professionally dissected and professionally rebutted by experts in mental disease.

    Where efforts could be made to get Brevik to reattach to reality and to the monstrosity of his crimes. And be hopefully taken to a place where he can accetpt that all human beings despite differences in religion or creed or race or place of birth are created equal in dignity and rights.

    More than a hundred years ago, in New Zealand a far more just verdict was delivered for Lionel Terry. Though not on the same scale as Brevik, Terry committed exactly the same sort of hate crime but unlike Brevik was found guilty by way of insanity. Like Brevik Terry filled his days writing racist polemics. jTerry’s writings were dismissed by the public at large as the ravings of a lunatic.

    Why?

    Because more than a hundred years ago in New Zealand a judge and a jury had the good sense to declare that committing racist murders was a clear symptom of mental illness. Later under in medical detention, Drs. eventually diagnosed Lionel Terry as a paranoid schizophrenic. Even a lay person like myself can see that Brevik could easily fit this diagnosis.

    http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/new-zealand-history/race-killing-lionel-terry-murders-joe-kum-yung-in-haining-st-wellington

    This unjust and clearly wrong verdict should be appealed.

    Not just in the interests of justice but also that Brevik’s illness can be properly quantified and studied so that that hopefully in the future others suffering from the same illness might be recognised and could get the help they need.

    If Brevik’s symptoms had been identified earlier then maybe this tragedy could have never have happened.

    • Morrissey 1.1
      25 August 2012 at 6:54 am

      More of the usual from poor old Jenny…

      Terribly upset that Anders Brevik has been determined to be “sane”.

      As usual, your judgement is hasty, ill considered and poorly expressed.

      • mike e 1.1.1
        25 August 2012 at 9:39 am

        Disgusting morrissey he as mad as they come.
        Now just being a rank and file prisoner he will be able to reply to fan mail and write a book ie mein kumph style.
        He already has a following.
        just great.
        If he went to an asylum he wouldn’t be a continueing threat.

        • muzza 1.1.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 9:51 am

          Actually Mike, this whole sorry saga stinks, just like the Holmes “batman” situation!

          Insane Brevik is not!

          • mike e 1.1.1.1.1
            25 August 2012 at 10:18 am

            Muzza Someone who spends years planning this massacre ,obsesive compulsive ,then has racist beliefs, low self esteem poor education results.No freinds a loner.
            Yeah right.
            The norwegian justice system has played right into his psyshopathic hands .
            Psychopaths are the best liars and conmen around.

            • muzza 1.1.1.1.1.1
              25 August 2012 at 11:06 am

              “The norwegian justice system has played right into his psyshopathic hands ”

              –So are you saying that the system is at fault?
              –I reckon we got to see exactly what that system you refer, wanted us to see!

          • marty mars 1.1.1.1.2
            25 August 2012 at 11:29 am

            hey muzza, has there been any act, by an apparent individual, of extreme violence towards the public, that is not a false flag op? The reason I ask is that I have read a few dissertations on why holmes was one – you know, how could he afford the weapons, rig the apartment, his dad’s stuff and so on – it doesn’t stack up IMO. I fear the promoters of these lines are influenced, overtly and covertly, by the powers that be. Sowing conspiracy terminator seeds albeit from a position of trying to help, trying to get the sheeple to wake up.

            I am not saying there aren’t conspiracies but not everything is one and the holmes stuff came out barely before the shell casings had been swept up – that makes me very suspicious.

            • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1.2.1
              25 August 2012 at 12:30 pm

              Reporting WTC 6 as collapsed 20 minutes before it actually did was the classic. It was never satisfactorily explained how that line was approved and inserted into the news presenter’s script, or where the original report originated from. It was put down to: it was an error, and errors happen from time to time. Except of course it was not an error, it proved to be completely correct.

              (Don’t mean to start a thread derail, heh)

            • muzza 1.1.1.1.2.2
              25 August 2012 at 3:30 pm

              Hey Marty,

              Its all rather transparent once you spend some time understanding history, and the system (all manufactured), which govern every single aspect of our lives…

              Use your gut, it will usually set you straight, but only once you actually know yourself very well, will you be able to feel truth from lies!

              The holmes case is beyond farcical, and does not require much investigsation to see though right through!

              • McFlock …
                26 August 2012 at 12:13 am

                so, Muzza, is there a single case of extreme violence against the public or a group therein which has not been a false flag operation? Can you identify a single one where some nutter just made happy with the bangbangs against random (not counting common group like religion, ethnicity or political beliefs) civilians and it was reported as such? Simple question.

                • muzza …
                  26 August 2012 at 12:43 pm

                  Hey McFlock, its really hard to know, and I don’t keep track of every shooting or event going, just the ones which get the global media attention, because there is always a reason to look further into the events. Tolouse, Tuscon, Aurora, Oak Creek, Norway, the list goes on!
                  The standard meme’s and framing of narratives from the MSM is always a giveaway, because the scenarios follow a familiar path each time. Think of it like the Iraq/Iran situation, where its WMD’s etc being used as they mind control.

                  Take for example the Adelaide “Family Murders”, while not involving guns, was a cover up of the highest levels, and still to this day there remains the unclosed stench around the whole sordid situation. While the Family Murders were unlikely to ever have been a false flag, the level of cover up is the important factor to focus on, because the level of cover ups and diversions is what false flags are all about. The outcome wanted from a false flag, is why they happen in the first place, so you have to be able to really invert some thought process, and try look at events inside out, and certainly not in silo!

                  So to answer your question have there been non flse flag shootings, yeah of course, but they won’ t get the global MSM attention, because the MSM only care about shaping peoples minds, so non false flags will generally not feature. False flags by their very nature will be attached to major events, not the odd random killings, certainly over recent history anyway.

                  With so much material available to read, and always so much contradictory stuff, its pretty well near impossible to come up with a conclusive position, hence why just read alot, and form opinions with what feels right, thats it really.

                  • McFlock …
                    26 August 2012 at 1:45 pm

                    The Family Murders were sexual assault serial killings? Not exactly in the same park as a spree-shooting.
                           
                    Wouldn’t western spree-killings be reported in the western media anyway? I read you as saying that if someone shoots to dozen people in a church and it gets into the news, it’s probably false flag. But maybe it gets into the news because it should? I mean, there’s an obvious bias towards pale and wealthy, but I ould still expect it to be reported significantly. 

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      26 August 2012 at 1:49 pm

                      Only peripherally related…

                      11 people get shot in NYC…turns out 10 of them by NYPD bullets.

                      http://www.zerohedge.com/news/was-nypd-responsible-10-11-people-shot-yesterday

                    • joe90 …
                      26 August 2012 at 2:03 pm

                      Only peripherally related…

                      11 people get shot in NYC…turns out 10 of them by NYPD bullets.

                      Milton Hall was shot 46 times.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2012 at 2:23 pm

                      wow. That’s – extreme.

                    • muzza …
                      26 August 2012 at 3:35 pm

                      The Family Murders were sexual assault serial killings? Not exactly in the same park as a spree-shooting.

                      Thats right they were, but as I did say, its more about the ability for covering up, which means that there is also the ability to make/allow things happen in the first place. Apply that at the highest of twisted levels you can think of, and you may start to be heading in the right direction.

                      Wouldn’t western spree-killings be reported in the western media anyway? I read you as saying that if someone shoots to dozen people in a church and it gets into the news, it’s probably false flag. But maybe it gets into the news because it should? I mean, there’s an obvious bias towards pale and wealthy, but I ould still expect it to be reported significantly.

                      Nah, thats where you have to use some lateral thinking McFlock, start looking at what else is going around around said event, and try make connections. I also said I don’t follow all events around, I take them as they come along, and if it raises an eyebrow, I look further into it.

                      Not easy to define what I think, is and is not a FF, but I have certainly made clear which events I believe are, and in some cases stated why I think that.

                    • muzza …
                      26 August 2012 at 4:36 pm

                      @ CV, indeed.

                      Will be interesting how the spin is going to play out over this one…Given that the media have already painted it as something its not!

                      Makes for an interesting cover up, or a rather large climb down!

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2012 at 4:44 pm

                      “Cover up” does not equal “false flag”.
                           
                      It’s all very well saying you judge each one as it occurs, but is there a single mass shooting/bombing against civilians in say the last 20 years, especially in the mainland US or Europe, that was not a false flag operation in your opinion? 

                    • muzza …
                      26 August 2012 at 5:10 pm

                      “Cover up” does not equal “false flag”.

                      Clearly not McFlock, and I never meant to insinuate that it did. My only contention is that events can be manufactured and systematically covered up with relative ease it seems. I think I’ve managed to lose you, but anyway….

                      It’s all very well saying you judge each one as it occurs, but is there a single mass shooting/bombing against civilians in say the last 20 years, especially in the mainland US or Europe, that was not a false flag operation in your opinion?

                      Again, I am not a follower of all mass shootings/bombings going around, and a quick google search reveals just how many mass shooting their has been over the years.

                      For sure there will be events which are “organic”, but I cant specifically name one off the top of my head, run one by me, and Ill let you know what I think….

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2012 at 5:18 pm

                      Aurora cinema shooting
                          
                      Atlanta Olympic Bombing 
                          
                      Virginia Tech
                       
                      Which ones of those strike you as false flag ops? 

                    • muzza …
                      26 August 2012 at 6:58 pm

                      Aurora Cinema Shooting – FF

                      Atlanta Olympic Bombing – FF

                      Virginia Tech – FF

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2012 at 7:13 pm

                      all of ’em?
                      FFS.
                           
                      Aramoana?

                    • muzza …
                      26 August 2012 at 7:42 pm

                      Was wondering how long it might take you to get a little closer to home…Disclaimer, today is the first time I have actually looked into this one, and after about 5 minutes of reading, and despite the fact that in sleepy little NZ, as much as I would like to believe its just a case of “gone mad”…

                      Aramoana – FF

                      Edit: Ill spend some more time on this one though, as try to leave the NZ stuff alone, as its a little too unsavory knowing this shit goes on in NZ.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      26 August 2012 at 7:50 pm

                      Typically, false flag events are used only when a public justification or public shift in attitude is required which cannot be achieved easily any other way.

                      A false flag event implicitly requires the creation of a scapegoat/enemy/party of blame. The villification of this group enables the actions and policies wanted by the perpetrators of the FF event, to be finally carried out with widespread public and political support.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2012 at 7:52 pm

                      what a load of crap.

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      26 August 2012 at 7:58 pm

                      Muzza. You need to work on your epistimology son.

                      The gut is not a thinking organ.

                      What you’ve described is the opposite of thinking. People using their gut to think are the most easily led. It’s easy to appeal to peoples guts. Just gotta push the buttons. Appeal to the presuppostions. And it’s Doneski.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      26 August 2012 at 8:03 pm

                      FF events can be viewed as any bog standard disinformation or misdirection ploy, but writ large.

                      Its important to view FF events primarily as PR and political tools. Mind you, there is plenty of ongoing crap occurring in the world which aren’t FF, its just the usual shitty stuff of humankind going on.

                    • Pascal's bookie …
                      26 August 2012 at 8:11 pm

                      Yeah Yeah CV

                      But the most important thing about FFs is that you have to have actual evidence that they are FF.

                      The mere fact that an event is used for an end, is not evidence for it being a FF aimed at bringing about that end.

                      Until you have actual evidence, talking about FFs never ends well.

                    • McFlock …
                      26 August 2012 at 8:14 pm

                      so CV, do you agree with Muzz that Aramoana was a false-flag operation?

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      26 August 2012 at 8:22 pm

                      But the most important thing about FFs is that you have to have actual evidence that they are FF.

                      Evidence is nice, but usually you have to wait 50-60 years for the relevant documents to be declassified. And yes, sometimes its not an FF, just sheer opportunism.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      26 August 2012 at 8:25 pm

                      so CV, do you agree with Muzz that Aramoana was a false-flag operation?

                      No, I certainly don’t. It definitely doesn’t fit the general criteria or pattern

                    • muzza …
                      26 August 2012 at 8:29 pm

                      The gut is not a thinking organ.

                      Perhaps not how you use it eh, The body has “three brains”, those who live in their heads only, or their hearts, will not know how to use instict, or how to feel!

                      If you don’t/can’t understand that then, thats the way it is…

                      What you’ve described is the opposite of thinking. People using their gut to think are the most easily led. It’s easy to appeal to peoples guts. Just gotta push the buttons. Appeal to the presuppostions. And it’s Doneski.

                      Easily lead, button pushing, don’t roll your stuff in my direction, you gotta work it out for yourself. Those who have not, in most cases never will PB, but don’t quit trying, and be prepared to uncover some shit you don’t know or like about yourself in the process!

                    • muzza …
                      26 August 2012 at 8:37 pm

                      No, I certainly don’t. It definitely doesn’t fit the general criteria or pattern

                      Agreed CV, that at face value it does not fit the general criteria, which is why I put the notes on the comment where I made the call..

                      Sometimes when there is not much to work with, you just gotta do it by the numbers, and the what is left behind, so to speak!

                  • joe90 …
                    26 August 2012 at 7:58 pm

                    Aramoana – FF

                    Barking dude, barking…

                    • muzza …
                      26 August 2012 at 8:18 pm

                      Joe, it does not sit too well to be honest, and as I said I’ve only looked at it for the first time tonight.

                      Still though, most counties in the “west” seem to have had their, and little old NZ was not immune!

                      Always amazes me how the same events seem to repeat themselves around the place eh!

                    • joe90 …
                      26 August 2012 at 9:06 pm

                      Where/how did you come up with the “suggestion”?

                      Aramoana – FF

                      The threading is pissing me off so I’m out.

                      L8tr

                    • muzza …
                      26 August 2012 at 9:39 pm

                      Joe, given the sensitivities I would like to clarify.

                      The call I made when asked about it, was what did “not sit easy” with me, as I had only just looked at it for a short while.

                      I was not suggesting that anyone else was involved, or had committed the atrocities, and if you read that in my posts, or thought that is what I meant when I said – FF, it is regrettable, and a reminder that when writing in text, to provide clear explanations/disclaimers when responding, especially given the subject matter, and it being about a NZ tragedy.

                      Any offence was certainly not intended, however given your local connection to it, I can understand how it happened, and for that I extend my apologies for lack of clarity in my responses to you on this topic.

              • marty mars …
                26 August 2012 at 11:45 am

                hey muzza,

                Do you think that Columbine and the Sikh Temple shooting are examples of false flag operations?

                and do you think the “hidden hand” dialogue from 2008 was/is true.

                • muzza …
                  26 August 2012 at 1:13 pm

                  Hi Marty,

                  Columbine, I would say yes – Similar reasons to Aurora, it just does not add up to what was sold as the story. Michael Moore having done a movie on it , ot me was like Obamas peace prize, and the same applies to F911. If Moore covers it, there is good reason to look more closely!
                  Sikh Temple – Yes, because the framing is around the “lone wolf” gunman, and is also aimed at the war veterans, who have been targeted as the biggest internal threat by homeland security. While the temple gunman was not a veteran, there are other events in the US which are happening around/to veterans, and they are being mentioned when referring to the temple/cinema shootings, which means there is framing to link veterans, white “lone wolves” with guns together….
                  The Norway, and Toulouse events were the European equivilent of the same narrative, IMO.

                  Hidden hand dialogues, I would be a little weary of anyone being a self proclaimed “illuminati”, and while I have not read the articles, but will, my initial reaction would be that is likely to not be for real, or that there is an effort to turn it all into a bit of a joke, kind of like how there are so many recent references to the illuminati etc in movies over the past few years. When it hits the movies, there is usually good reason, and when too many start discussing openly, then it has to be “debunked”, and what better way to do it, than by using the biggest mind control system in the world, the entertainment business!

                  Just assume you are being lied to Marty, and work your way out from there. Don’t let it run your life though, but let the understandings allow you to filter out lifes noise, and just get on with what is important, like honesty, integirty, family, friends and people etc….All the drama is just the noise which people accepept as their lives. If you understand the control we all live under, then the noise, for me at least, just seems to seep away, and the important things, became even more clear!

                  • marty mars …
                    26 August 2012 at 4:58 pm

                    Thanks muzza

                    If the framing is to relate a mass killing to a veteran – doesn’t that occur after the event itself? Like they are taking advantage of whatever has occured rather than causing the event to occur in the first place. Every event can be ‘massaged’ by the framers to give the impression they want and with the media and so on it is easy to see that happening but it is a different ballgame when those who take advantage of the event are said to have caused the event, isn’t it?

                    Anyway I’m not really too bothered because I’ve heard many variations of the lines and a couple of my good friends and deep into it, plus I live in Golden Bay – a conspiracy hotspot 🙂

                    • muzza …
                      26 August 2012 at 5:35 pm

                      If the framing is to relate a mass killing to a veteran – doesn’t that occur after the event itself? Like they are taking advantage of whatever has occured rather than causing the event to occur in the first place. Every event can be ‘massaged’ by the framers to give the impression they want and with the media and so on it is easy to see that happening but it is a different ballgame when those who take advantage of the event are said to have caused the event, isn’t it?

                      The framing happens continually, it has to be embedded into peoples minds. The aim is to make people fearful of eachother, but stigmatising who TPTB fear most, (even if that is an invention like OBL) Given that there are so many veterans, who are all clearly trained and most likely armed once they get home, not to mention in many cases fully aware of the shafting they have received from TPTB, its important to make sure that the sheep always have a ‘baddie” to focus on. The framing from homeland security began quite some time ago, they put out videos based on the “see something say something” meme, in which most those in the video clips were white and or middle class “regular” people, which of course was a u-turn from the brown faced arabs being the “enemy”.

                      The narrative of course, is that you can’t trust anyone, but your “friendly” government, who are there to protect you. The narrative over veterans started about the same time, but in reality has been in play for decades, given the number of wars America has been in, and still is. I would expect a big part of neededing to keep their massive forces busy continually is for that very reason that if standing, they could well be a huge threat.
                      The narrative about the veterans, and” lone wolf” gunman came up hard about 2-3 years back, and has been accurate in its depictings, given the things which are going on of late..It really can be too much information, and at the end of the day, what really is fact or fiction, is simply down to the digester of the details, when forming their own opinions eh.

                      Anyway I’m not really too bothered because I’ve heard many variations of the lines and a couple of my good friends and deep into it, plus I live in Golden Bay – a conspiracy hotspot

                      Awesome part of the country….

                  • fnjckg …
                    26 August 2012 at 5:12 pm

                    Amen

              • joe90 …
                26 August 2012 at 8:47 pm

                Gray was known by my family and his victims and your suggestion that anyone other than Gray was responsible for the Aromoana killings is offensive muzza.

                • muzza …
                  26 August 2012 at 9:00 pm

                  Gray was known by my family and his victims and your suggestion that anyone other than Gray was responsible for the Aromoana killings is offensive muzza.

                  I don’t recall suggesting anything of the sort Joe, perhaps ask before assuming or becoming offended, or offended on behalf!

                  Where/how did you come up with the “suggestion”?

                  • McFlock …
                    26 August 2012 at 9:23 pm

                    Muzza, you do actually understand what the term “false-flag operation” actually refers to, do you?
                            
                    Saying that Aramoana was a FF operation is equivalent to saying that either Gray didn’t do it, or he was under orders to pretend for several years to be a disturbed individual and then shoot a lot of people.
                               

        • Morrissey 1.1.1.2
          25 August 2012 at 11:55 am

          he as mad as they come.

          Clearly he is not mad. Listen to his words; his repulsive, simple-minded racism is no different to what you’ll hear on Leighton Smith’s programme any weekday morning on NewstalkZB. Or Michael Laws over on Radio Live. Or Bruce Russell. Or Paul Holmes.

          If you think Breivik is mad, you obviously have not read Nevil Gibson in the National Business Review. If you had, you would be calling for him to be incarcerated along with the Norwegian whose comments are interchangeable with his own.

      • prism 1.1.2
        25 August 2012 at 6:21 pm

        Morrissey 1.1
        And as usual your comment is wise, thoughtful, measured and with a touching humility.

    • Bill 1.2
      25 August 2012 at 7:54 am

      Maybe it’s our political/economic environment that is insane. And so Brevik’s actions are within the bounds of how a sane person might think and react given the insanity of our environment. That his conclusions are mistaken and his reasoning based on yearnings to return to some halcyon past, does not make him insane.

      • Morrissey 1.2.1
        25 August 2012 at 8:03 am

        Maybe it’s our political/economic environment that is insane. And so Brevik’s actions are within the bounds of how a sane person might think and react given the insanity of our environment.

        A look over some of Nevil Gibson’s deranged racist rants in the NBR lends credence to your view.

    • kiwi_prometheus 1.3
      25 August 2012 at 10:27 am

      “Racism is a sickness. And should be identified as such.”

      How do you define racism and them apply it clinically?

      More “Thought Crime” nonsense coming from the PC nutters.

      No doubt Jenny is a feminist as well. The hysterical tone of her rant suggest it.

      • mike e 1.3.1
        25 August 2012 at 10:32 am

        KP your just a male chauvenist dick head.
        Keep women in their place not aloud an opinion and if women do have an opinion it doesn,t count.
        Stick with your modern day voodoo KP.

        • kiwi_prometheus 1.3.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 12:41 pm

          “KP your just a male chauvenist dick head.”

          You’re just a mangina.

          “if women do have an opinion it doesn,t count.”

          Not feminist nonsense like “Rape Culture”, why are they obsessed with rape?

          Gender Studies 101.

          Wymmin. 🙄

      • Jenny 1.3.2
        25 August 2012 at 6:45 pm

        I stated that racism is a sickness and should be identified as such.

        To which k_p replied; “How do you define racism and then apply it clinically?”

        To which I would say, if you were found guilty of committing a crime of violence against another human being, or group of human beings, the primary motive being race hate…

        ….Then that would be the test.

        In fact such applications already exist to some extent. Legislative statutes in some countries demand that “hate crimes” draw much harsher penalties than similar crimes not motivated by racism. Why have such statutes been drawn up? Because it is recognised that racism is a sickness and like many sicknesses it can spread.

        I don’t care what it is. Racist graffiti, or breaking the windows of the house of known immigrants. These sorts of crimes should be recognised as an extreme criminal pathology and receive much more extreme penalties to match their seriousness.

        • QoT 1.3.2.1
          25 August 2012 at 7:28 pm

          Because it is recognised that racism is a sickness and like many sicknesses it can spread.

          Um … or because the powers that be wish to send a particularly strong message that racism won’t be tolerated in a particular society.

        • Carol 1.3.2.2
          25 August 2012 at 7:30 pm

          Legislative statutes in some countries demand that “hate crimes” draw much harsher penalties than similar crimes not motivated by racism. Why have such statutes been drawn up? Because it is recognised that racism is a sickness and like many sicknesses it can spread.

          Can you provide evidence that such hate crime legislation defines racism as a sickness?

        • Pascal's bookie 1.3.2.3
          25 August 2012 at 8:16 pm

          Wait what? You are in favour of punnishing people for being sick?

        • DJ 1.3.2.4
          26 August 2012 at 12:19 pm

          “Because it is recognised that racism is a sickness and like many sicknesses it can spread.”

          So Hone calling us White MotherFuckers is racist or not?

          I believe it to be so,therefore using my feelings and your argument, he is therefore a sick man and his “sickness” could possibly spread. So possibly as leader of a political party, we have a major outbreak waiting to happen.

          Can you please let me know which of your family members is using the family brain cell for this week?

    • Pascal's bookie 1.4
      25 August 2012 at 10:54 am

      Jenny, you are wrong.

      Norway has dealt with this properly.

      As for your notion that racism is a mental illness, then if that is true then how do you explain that just about everyone was mentally ill untill sometime in the 20th century when for reasons unknown this mental illness started to become less prevalent?

      It’s a nonsense theory, and your idea of declaring people mentally ill becuase of their political beliefs and locking them up in order to be ‘studied’ and ‘cured’ is horriffic.

      Your idea that he will gain political benefits from this verdict, and that because of that he should have been found insane so that his ideas will be ignored, is again, awful.

      You are saying that the primary thing to consider is not his crimes, but his beliefs, and that Norway should use its legal system to stop his political agenda. In other words, you are saying that they should make a political prisoner out of him, detain him and call him insane for purely political reasons. That is not a healthy path.

      His crimes were politically motivated. He was and is a terrorist.

      Norway has responded calmly and rightly in response. Charging him for his crimes. Meeting his challenge to their political and legal culture head on and saying that their systems are strong enough to deal with this.

      He is not a soldier with a following, he does not warrant extra-legal machinations. He is a terrorist. A mass murderer motivated by a political agenda. And he has been dealt with accordingly, as a civilised country should deal with with criminals under the rule of law.

      • QoT 1.4.1
        25 August 2012 at 2:07 pm

        Completely agree with everything you said, PB. Breivik may be pleased as punch to be declared criminally sane, but all that means is that the people of Norway get to prove that he has no fucking power to undermine their society.

        And I have to say, Jenny: when we start saying “[offensive ideology] is a mental illness” all we’re doing is (a) continuing to stigmatize mental illness and (b) diminishing the responsibility bigots have for their bigotry.

        • McFlock 1.4.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 3:55 pm

          I seem to recall that at a foreign policy conference around 2002 a US academic tried exactly the same move on AQ and similar groups.
                 
          Didn’t impress the folk at the conference. 

      • Jenny 1.4.2
        25 August 2012 at 6:22 pm

        He is not a soldier with a following…..

        Pascal’s bookie

        But he believes he is.

        Brevik is clearly delusional, once taking a year off to play video games to prepare for combat. Who dressed up in whacky military style uniforms as part of his fantasy world. Who on being incarcerated demanded to be made head of Norway’s armed forces. Who shot a young Maori girl barely 14 years old to death because of the the colour of her skin and according to survivors was laughing while he did it.

        Is this man not sick?

        The far right in Europe are pleased that Brevik has been found sane.

        “It was obviously wrong what he did, but there was logic to all of it,” said Stephen Lennon, the 29-year-old leader of the English defence League, an anti-Muslim group. “By saying that he was sane, it gives a certain credibility to what he had been saying. And that is, that Islam is a threat to Europe and to the world.”

        NZherald.co.nz

        Breivik driven by ‘political madness’ – survivor

        So why was Brevik found sane?

        The five judges brought into decide the issue declared that they had “unanimously” found Brevik to be sane.

        Why were five judges brought in to decide this issue?

        Why was their judgement unanimous?

        Had it been decided beforehand that their judgement had to be unanimous?

        Did a majority overpower a minority?

        It seems remarkable that the whole five were in agreement, when the two teams of expert medical witnesses brought in to give evidence to court couldnt agree.

        The whole thing smacks of political predetermination.

        But what could be the motive?

        Brevik repeatedly said that if he was found insane he would appeal the ruling of the court. (But with typically crazy logic on being declared guilty of murder. Said he wouldn’t appeal the ruling because that would “legitimise” a court that got its mandate from a political system that supports multiculturalism.

        So was the Norwegian state frightened of the possibility of such an appeal?

        And if so why?

        In the unlikely event: Who on earth would fund such an appeal?

        Surely not the Norwegian state?

        And if not the state, then who?

        The extreme far right?

        Well meaning leftist liberals concerned for Brevik’s human rights?

        In the unlikely event of such an appeal, racism itself would be in the dock.

        I can just imagine the whole panoply of racists, fascists and neo nazis willing to step up to the witness box prepared to argue that their racist views are not sick, but are reasoned and logical and well thought out.

        Further that the murder of unarmed children can be explained as a logical, though extreme reaction, to reasonably held views.

        This is obviously a court case that the Norwegian state and the judiciary definitly did not want to see.

        Possibly shining a very unflattering light on Norwegian society.

        Another question did anyone not read the link I supplied to the sentence of Lionel Terry? Like Brevik Terry circulated his printed racist manifesto before his crime. As did Brevik using the internet.

        This judgement rewrites history.

        Are we to understand that Lionel Terry was in fact sane?

        How about Hitler, is he an example of sanity?

        Or Mussolini? Well balanced? reasonable even?

        • Colonial Viper 1.4.2.1
          25 August 2012 at 6:30 pm

          If the psychologists and psychiatrists who examined Brevik are confident that he is not criminally insane, and that he was lucid and rational during the whole period, isn’t that fairly final?

          Can it be a surprise that sane people can do bad, despicable things.

          • Jenny 1.4.2.1.1
            25 August 2012 at 6:51 pm

            The psychologists and psychiatrists made no such finding. In fact the two opposing teams of expert witnesses disagreed with each other. Though the defence team did admit to some pathology.

            • Pascal's bookie 1.4.2.1.1.1
              26 August 2012 at 10:04 am

              I’m starting to think this a willful misrepresentation.There were two teams; one found him insane, and one found him sane. Both teams testified, and the one that found him insane were less convincing to the court.

              It is quite true to claim that a team of psych’s found him sane. That team was then found to be more convincing to the court. This finding was based on the veidence presented by both teams.

              • muzza …
                26 August 2012 at 10:23 am

                PB – Agreed!

                Again we see the two sides of the narrative framing – Is he or is he not!

                All the while there will be much more happaning than we will get to see or know, and again its a case of use the instinct, cos this one stinks too!

                But people get to talk about “is he, or isn’t he”, which is clearly not the real important questions!

        • OneTrack 1.4.2.2
          25 August 2012 at 6:51 pm

          You forgot to mention Stalin. And he had “reeducation” camps along the lines of what you are suggesting. I believe they had a lot of “insane” people in them too.

        • Pascal's bookie 1.4.2.3
          25 August 2012 at 7:11 pm

          Perhaps if you’d followed the trial Jenny, you wouldn’t have so many questions.

          There were two teams of psychological experts. One team thought he was insane, and had made a preliminary finding of that previously. They were in court defending that finding.

          The other team analysed that initial report, and did their own interviews with Breivik. They maintained that the initial report was deeply flawed and failed to take into account a number of highly relevant factors.

          For example, in the initial report, (the one that claimed he was insane) a part of the evidence was that Breivik used ‘made up words’; words that he had invented. It turns out that these words were not made up at all. The are words that anyone who studied far right politics would recognise.

          The judicial panel agreed that the initial report was flawed. There is no need to imagine any underhand agendas.

          That the far right are cheering the verdict is no surprise. They’d be cheering either way. After the event, they were saying that Breivik is insane and that he wasn’t tied to them etc and so forth. If he was found by the courts to be insane, they would be in the papers today making similar points.They would be saying that their ideology had nothing to do with what Breivik did, that he did it because he is insane and that liberals should apologose for smearing them by trying to associate them with Breivik.

          As it is, they are in the rather uncomfortable position of saying, ‘erm yeah the courts found that he isn’t insane he just agrees with us about some stuff and acted on it’. Well, that’s what the EDL seem to be saying, but no one ever accused them of being the smartist propagandists on the circuit.

        • QoT 1.4.2.4
          25 August 2012 at 7:25 pm

          Why were five judges brought in to decide this issue?

          Clearly it shows it was a conspiracy! Or, you know, we could ask Wikipedia:

          “Since August 1995, all criminal cases which go to court are tried at the district court first. Prior to this, the most serious cases were tried in the Court of appeal (lagmannsrett). Regular trials are usually held before a panel of three judges, one professional and two lay judges. In particularly difficult cases the bench may consist of five judges (two professional and three lay judges).”

          I don’t know about you, Jenny, but I suspect that the largest domestic terrorist attack in Norwegian history may just qualify as a “particularly difficult case”.

          Why was their judgement unanimous?

          This is just a theory, but it could be that they all agreed.

          It seems remarkable that the whole five were in agreement, when the two teams of expert medical witnesses brought in to give evidence to court couldnt agree.

          And yet juries twice the size regularly agree unanimously on one expert witness’ testimony over another’s.

          How about Hitler, is he an example of sanity?

          Or Mussolini? Well balanced? reasonable even?

          There is a world of difference between “sane” and “reasonable”. Mentally-healthy people do obnoxious, bigoted, and yes, even violent things every single day.

          • Jenny 1.4.2.4.1
            26 August 2012 at 2:49 am

            I commented on the remarkable unanimity of the five judges.

            To which QoT replied; “…..yet juries twice the size regularly agree unanimously on one expert witness’ testimony over another’s.

            But this is generally an artifice of the justice system.

            Juries in most Western jurisdictions, (until very recently)* have been directed by statute to deliver unanimous verdicts.

            Which raises the legitimate question were the five judges so directed?

            *the allowing of majority verdicts being only a recent (and somewhat controversial) innovation.

            • QoT 1.4.2.4.1.1
              26 August 2012 at 1:57 pm

              Juries in most Western jurisdictions, (until very recently)* have been directed by statute to deliver unanimous verdicts.

              Yes, because otherwise it’s not a verdict and the trial has to be done all over again. And hung juries happen.

              Unless you have very clear reasons (and “but some psychologists disagreed with some other psychologists” isn’t particularly compelling) to suspect that there was political interference in the judges’ decision, then you’re basically impugning the integrity of the judiciary of Norway because you want to pretend that behaviour you don’t like constitutes mental illness.

              From the same Wikipedia article I already linked you to:

              Verdicts and sentences are determined by a majority vote, with the lay judges’ votes counting the same as the professional judge.

              There is no need for a unanimous decision, compared with juries. Norway is clearly not a country afraid to have a debate on racism and xenophobia – if they were, then any politically-rigged decision would have come down the other way.

              So seriously. Besides the fact that you hate Anders Breivik and think he’s mad, based on your years of criminal psychology experience, where do you see any basis for questioning the integrity of the judges’ decision? Protip: “Because I disagree with it” won’t be especially convincing to anyone outside your own brain.

    • Dr Terry 1.5
      25 August 2012 at 11:56 am

      I sympathize with you Jenny. It is terribly hard, if possible, to diagnose a criminally-minded sociopath (psychopath) in advance of an evil action. There are many sociopaths in society, frequently in high places. One cannot “foresee” which will be criminally menacing; a number are dreadful and manipulative people, though surprisingly, on occasion, feted and lauded. The criminal sociopath lacks conscience, but usually posses intelligence, which often makes him/her hard to detect. Only in older age might the symptoms ease somewhat. There is no “cure”, no treatment likely to work. The court has ruled correctly, however, inasmuch as a sociopath is not “mentally diseased”, but is an unfortunate “personality type”. Again, the problem at base is far from uncommon in human society, may be well represented, for example, among political leaders.

      The “help” a dangerous psychopath needs is to be kept in isolation from society for a very long time, and one trusts that Brevik will never be released. (But always, he is sure to “proud” of what he interprets as a great accomplishment. He is incapable of remorse or conscience. We have such a person in NZ by name of Clayton Weatherston, brutal murderer, yet previously a highly placed academic. His sentence was much too short).

    • stargazer 1.6
      25 August 2012 at 4:18 pm

      “Racism is a sickness.”

      no, it’s a conscious choice and should be identified as such. people should be held fully accountable for such a choice and the actions that arise from it. are you saying that someone who refuses to let me rent their house because of my skin colour has a mental illness? are you saying all those employers who throw my CV in the bin just from seeing my non-anglicised name have a mental illness? are you telling me that all those people who yell at me to go back to my country (i’m in my own country morons) are suffering from a mental illness? bullshit. they make a conscious decision to have racist views and act on those views. they are fully sane when they do it. people choose to assault, harass, and sometimes kill others on the basis of race. it’s not a mental illness. it’s a conscious choice.

      i find your comment extremely offensive and insulting.

      • OneTrack 1.6.1
        25 August 2012 at 6:53 pm

        Offensive and insulting. I find her comments absolutely chilling. I thought we had got past that sort of thing. Obviously not.

    • Daveosaurus 1.7
      25 August 2012 at 8:53 pm

      Whether or not Breivik is sane is really not the issue. The issue is that he’s thorougly evil.

    • Rosie 1.8
      25 August 2012 at 11:48 pm

      Hi Jenny,

      Given the time, its a bit late for this reply to your post. I see a lot of folks replied and made very good valid points.
      Can understand why you wonder why Anders Breivik wasn’t declared “insane” when his acts of violence caused so much grief for so many families. Its grief that will never end. As humans we tend to link cold blooded mass murder with insanity because we have no way to reconcile such behaviour with rational thinking. Thinking and feeling are two different things. Breivik had and has deeply racist feelings which led to the development of his idealogy and tragically to the ultimate planning and execution of the mass murders that took place in separate areas in Norway.
      In psychological terms, Breivik is a ‘sane’ man. (Sane for the want of a better word.Sanity vs insanity perhaps more of a media term these days rather than clinical one) He is hideous, violent, calculating and repulsive in every way. His nazi salute at trial was sickening. Being a dispicable person and a murderer however doesn;’t always mean you are unwell. Being unable to cope with daily life, and having nothing left to live for after surving major trauma in your life may make you a psychologically unwell person. Breivik was troubled but he wasn’t a man torn by an unwell state of mind. No matter how we feel about what he did and his ongoing belief in is view and his remorse that he didn’t kill more people doesn’t take away the fact that he is psychologially sound. His intentions, as sick as they are to us were and are, the product of a functioning and determined mind, not one that is disorganised and weakened by stressors and illness. He was always in full control of his actions.
      I was hugely relieved to hear that that he wasn’t ruled unwell. Now he has to face his crimes. Its his thinking that is sick, not his mental state. Theres a difference.

      • Jenny 1.8.1
        26 August 2012 at 3:32 am

        In July 1905 Terry walked 1400 km from Mangōnui to Wellington, attracting considerable attention as he went. Along the way he distributed copies of The shadow, a book of verse with a long introduction on the need for racial purity. He also gave lectures on the threat posed to New Zealand by the ‘yellow peril’. When he arrived in Wellington on 14 September, he tried to convince members of the House of Representatives and immigration officials that all non-European immigration should be stopped. His pleas met with little success, and in an effort to gain further publicity for his views he shot Joe Kum Yung on the night of 24 September. Terry surrendered to the police the following morning, handing over his revolver and a copy of The shadow.

        The court found Lionel Terry guilty by way of insanity for the lesser, though still terrible crime of killing one innocent man, instead of dozens. Except for the scale, and for delivering pamphlets of his racist manifesto by hand, instead of using the internet, the parallels between Brevik and Terry are striking, leading me to think that there is a pathology at work here.

        That Terry’s mania was fueled by a political climate that deemed hatred of Chinese immigrants acceptable, is undeniable. Just as the “War on Terror” and publicly acceptable Islamaphobia fed Brevik’s delusions.

        A 107 years ago a New Zealand court found Lionel Terry guilty by way of insanity.

        Were they wrong?

        Would a modern New Zealand court find him sane?

        What does this say about us?

        • Rosie 1.8.1.1
          26 August 2012 at 4:24 pm

          Jenny, it is impossible to comment on the mental health of a racist individual 107 years ago. The science of psychology was only in its infancy in 1905 and certainly courts at the time in NZ wouldn;’t have had a clue as to whether some one was ‘sane’ or not. It is a stretch to compare this mans state of mind with that of Anders Breiviks’. It is also simplistic to assume that because some one committs actrocities that they are psychologically unwell, and in doing so you are stigmatising those with coping with mental illness. Please don’t hold on to harmful stereotypes and misinformation regarding mental illness. These attitudes don’t help anyone.

    • Vicky32 1.9
      26 August 2012 at 6:12 pm

      Far better to have found Brevik insane, suffering from mental illness.

      I had the same idea, as being found sane is what he wanted…
      However, he was capable of planning to a high degree, and in the general prison population, he will no doubt be left in no doubt about how people feel about his crimes!

  2. Morrissey 2
    25 August 2012 at 6:51 am

    Are you an Australian citizen?

    If you are, you’d better hope you never need your government to stand up for you….

  3. Morrissey 3
    25 August 2012 at 7:54 am

    Our soldiers are being sacrificed for THIS?

    ‘Afghan Massacre: The Convoy of Death’ tells of the horrific journey undertaken by thousands of prisoners who surrendered to America’s Afghan allies after the siege of Kunduz. With unique footage captured by award-winning Afghan filmmaker Najibullah Quraishi, this compelling documentary shows how American Special Forces re-directed containers carrying living and dead Afghans into the desert, and stood by as survivors were executed and buried in mass graves. It details how the Pentagon lied to the world in order to cover up its role in the greatest atrocity of the Afghan War.

    http://12160.info/video/afghanistan-massacre-convoy-of-death-50-minute-documentary

    • Bill 3.1
      25 August 2012 at 8:02 am

      Haven’t clicked through to your link yet. But I do remember news footage showing prisoners being led into shipping containers. And I remember thinking, as the wee white lass from the mid-west or wherever stood giving her upbeat report not 50 yards away, that every single one of those people was going to die.

      A fact she seemed oblivious to.

      Shoving people into containers and letting heat, oxygen deprivation and lack of water do the rest was as common as muck in Afghanistan. It was just ‘what happened’ if you were captured.

      • Morrissey 3.1.1
        25 August 2012 at 8:06 am

        Our soldiers have been browbeaten into handing captives over to face such a fate.

        In violation of the Geneva Conventions, of course.

        Our Governor General still has not answered questions about this. He was (nominally) “in charge” when these war crimes occurred.

    • Monique Watson 3.2
      25 August 2012 at 10:27 am

      That’s old news Morrissey. Obama has an investigation into it.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghan_Massacre:_The_Convoy_of_Death
      It’s horrific; whatever happened then, we’d have been speakin German by the 1950’s if it wasn’t for the U.S. NZDF members are quite happy to be helping reconstruct Afghanistan so don’t get all bent out of shape on their behalf.
      This is what makes me angry:

      http://nowoccupy.blogspot.com/2012/08/local-filmmaker-burstyn-is-gleeful-at.html

      Some tart promoting her dangerous anti-war views and insulting Jacinda Baker.

      • felix 3.2.1
        25 August 2012 at 10:31 am

        Eh? We’d have been “speakin German by the 1950′s if it wasn’t for the U.S” so now we should let them do whatever the fuck they like, up to and including mass murder?

        • Monique Watson 3.2.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 1:45 pm

          No, I’m just sayin, there’s a lot of anti-u.S sentiment that is unfounded.

          • muzza 3.2.1.1.1
            25 August 2012 at 3:39 pm

            Such as?

            Those who run the US, are far from being American…which is something that tends to confuse people!

            • OneTrack 3.2.1.1.1.1
              25 August 2012 at 6:54 pm

              Muzza, Obama isnt that bad. Is he?

              • felix …
                26 August 2012 at 9:28 am

                If he’s responsible for the things being discussed in this thread, then he’s rotten to the core.

                Clearly.

                Did you think that was going to be a trick question or something?

          • McFlock 3.2.1.1.2
            25 August 2012 at 4:04 pm

            Supervising the slaughter of prisoners, on the other hand, is a well-founded source of anti-us sentiment.

          • Polish Pride 3.2.1.1.3
            25 August 2012 at 6:40 pm

            Perhaps you should look deeper into US foreign policy and subsequent actions. You’ll find that a lot of that ‘anti U.S. sentiment is very well founded…

      • kiwi_prometheus 3.2.2
        25 August 2012 at 10:32 am

        Actually the Nazis had lots of ( right wing ) support in the USA. The Economist Magazine even ran articles arguing Hitler would be good for Europe because it would mean stability and therefore a better economic environment.

        The British had to work real hard with their friends in US politics to get the US on side.

        • mike e 3.2.2.1
          25 August 2012 at 10:37 am

          The US corporations were selling Hitler the factories to produce his weapons.
          Thats why the right were supporting Hitler.

          • kiwi_prometheus 3.2.2.1.1
            25 August 2012 at 10:45 am

            Yep, Catch 22 material.

            Economic motivations aside, there are also the ideological kinship – all that Nation, Work and Family plus the jew hating.

        • Morrissey 3.2.2.2
          25 August 2012 at 10:40 am

          The British had to work real hard with their friends in US politics to get the US on side.

          The British establishment was (and obviously still is) full of people who either admired or were resigned to dealing with the Nazis.

          • kiwi_prometheus 3.2.2.2.1
            25 August 2012 at 10:48 am

            The British Royal Family are crouts. I think the British King at the time had a thick German accent.

            • McFlock 3.2.2.2.1.1
              25 August 2012 at 4:07 pm

              No on the accent. But the one who abdicated in 36 was seriously pro-nazi, to the point that he had reduced security clearance and spent the war as governor of the Bahamas.
                     
              On the US side, Jo Kennedy almost fucked Britain. 

          • Jenny 3.2.2.2.2
            25 August 2012 at 7:36 pm

            The British establishment was (and obviously still is) full of people who either admired or were resigned to dealing with the Nazis.

            Morrissey

            Until Churchill gave them a wake up call.

            Churchill berated the privileged classes of Britain telling them in no uncertain terms that under fascism even they would not be safe.

            That in fascism, humanity, (no matter what class they belonged to), was facing an existential global threat.

            Today humanity is facing another and maybe an even greater existential threat. Anthropogenic global climate change.

            What we need is a modern (climate change) Churchill to rail against all the modern appeasers and apologists.

        • Dv 3.2.2.3
          25 August 2012 at 11:04 am

          US only entered ww2 because Japan bombed pearl harbour!!

          • kiwi_prometheus 3.2.2.3.1
            25 August 2012 at 11:18 am

            Yeah there is a strong Isolationist current in the US which comes out on top now and then.

            • Colonial Viper 3.2.2.3.1.1
              25 August 2012 at 12:06 pm

              There WAS a strong US isolationist movement in both Congress and the public in the 1930’s. Since then however, the US public has become so ignorant it is barely aware of any world outside of its own borders, and the US congress has been happy to authorise and fund more than 100 military bases around the world.

              • kiwi_prometheus …
                25 August 2012 at 12:34 pm

                I’d say it is still there under the surface waiting for the right conditions to re emerge. You hear it in some of the sentiments expressed by political candidate outliers wanting to retreat from the Middle East etc “Let them sort out their own mess!”, citing the massive cost of running an empire.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  25 August 2012 at 12:40 pm

                  No you’re wrong IMO. No viable political candidate has ever said anything like that. The Saudi’s and Israel are too important to the US politically and economically.

                  NB in their 2 party dictatorship system, political candidate “outliers” are just treated as crazy ineffectual randoms.

                  • kiwi_prometheus …
                    25 August 2012 at 12:56 pm

                    “No viable political candidate”

                    That’s why I said waiting for the right conditions to re emerge.

                    “The Saudi’s and Israel are too important to the US politically and economically.”

                    Today they are. But who knows down the line…

                    In the case of Israel its definitely the tail wagging the dog for now.

                    Maybe what I mean is that American Isolationism is atavistic.

              • OneTrack …
                25 August 2012 at 6:57 pm

                Somebody has to at least try and keep the peace.

                • felix …
                  25 August 2012 at 11:07 pm

                  And the way to “keep the peace” is, um, mass murder.

                  Good on you OneTrack. Not just a clever name, are you?

              • prism …
                25 August 2012 at 7:13 pm

                CV
                I don’t know if the USA ever really recovered from the McCarthy era. Their own government attacking ordinary citizens after they thought that the war was over, and nearly all of the facts and the allegations false. It gave the message that the country would come down hard on any unpopular opinions. Better to have none, and go out and buy a gun to protect yourself.

                And the latest on unpopular opinions. There was an interview with someone from the State Dept this Saturday afternoon on Radionz.. They are going to contact bloggers who would like to be coached on how to answer negative prejudiced comments on the blog. The idea I think is that minorities, and those suffering racism, can learn techniques that they can use to break the discourse when inflammatory language is being used.

                In some ways I can see the point. But governments do not usually have time to be so tender-hearted. It makes me uneasy. The idea is that if the bloggers feel they are being attacked they can defend their position better after some coaching. I guess the USA government is thinking about stopping people like the Norway guy gathering converts.

                These people are not going to be paid, they are not going to be reporting to the State Department, though it will have some handy contacts to refer to when wanted I am sure. And no doubt they will be keeping in touch with their watchers to get any titbits.

                And will criticism of the USA be of interest? And what will be regarded as unsuitable by these watchers. The Tuhoe tapes picked out some great quotes that formed the basis for a many-homes invasion by the police. Paranoia rules these days after the shocking events of Sept 2011.

        • Vicky32 3.2.2.4
          26 August 2012 at 6:41 pm

          Actually the Nazis had lots of ( right wing ) support in the USA

          Prescott Bush (Dubya’s Grandpappy) was part of it.

          • felix 3.2.2.4.1
            26 August 2012 at 6:54 pm

            Yep, but he was only one of many. And it wasn’t just for the n@zis either, there was plenty of right-wing support in the U.S. for f@cism in general.

            Probably still is.

            • Carol 3.2.2.4.1.1
              26 August 2012 at 6:57 pm

              Hmmm…. didn’t Churchill utter some words in favour of the approach of the German leader of the time? And of the Italian one? I’ve read some people saying that Churchill would have liked one of those leaders on his side.

              • prism …
                26 August 2012 at 7:08 pm

                Carol
                Just a bit more on war. I am reading a book on the sinking of the Lusitania which was not quite the clearcut outrage as it seemed to the public at the time in WW1. The Admiral of the British Fleet Lord Fisher corresponded in secret with the Admiral of the German fleet von Tirpitz On 29 March 1916 Lord Fisher wrote ‘I don’t blame you for the submarine business, I’d have done exactly the same myself.’

      • Morrissey 3.2.3
        25 August 2012 at 10:35 am

        Obama has an investigation into it.

        Comrade Stalin has it all under control.

      • Pascal's bookie 3.2.4
        25 August 2012 at 11:25 am

        It’s horrific; whatever happened then, we’d have been speakin German by the 1950′s if it wasn’t for the U.S.

        As to the logic, what felix said. as to the notion that we’d have been speaking german if not for the yanks, lol.

        First up what Germans in the pacific? Second up, the yanks didn’t enter the war untill japan attacked them. They didn’t give a shit about us before that. Third up, even when Japan did attack them, the uS didn’t declare war on Germany, only Japan. Germany declared war on the US in response

        NZDF members are quite happy to be helping reconstruct Afghanistan so don’t get all bent out of shape on their behalf

        Speak for all of them do you? Fact is, NZDF members serve happilly enough wherever they are ordered to serve. This mission though, is the first one I’ve ever heard of where SAS members started talking to investigative journalists about their concerns.

        • Monique Watson 3.2.4.1
          25 August 2012 at 1:51 pm

          And that’s what I luurve about you guys. The instant history lesson for free. I still think that Burstyn was out of line for expresing her opinions on war that way. In fact for every dead soldier she has rubbed her hands with glee.

        • OneTrack 3.2.4.2
          25 August 2012 at 7:00 pm

          Ok, ok, you’re absolutely right – we’d have all been speakin Japanese by the 1950’s if it wasn’t for the U.S.

          • Jenny 3.2.4.2.1
            25 August 2012 at 7:47 pm

            And we would be all speaking Maori by the 21st Century if the British Empire hadn’t invaded the Pacific.

          • felix 3.2.4.2.2
            26 August 2012 at 7:39 pm

            Very good, OneTrack. By way of response I refer you back to my earlier comment and I trust that you will be able to mentally make the necessary adjustments regarding the German vs Japanese languages as you read it.

      • QoT 3.2.5
        25 August 2012 at 2:09 pm

        we’d have been speakin German by the 1950′s

        You’re a fucking idiot, Monique. Exactly how were we all going to end up speaking German after the Japanese invaded the South Pacific?

      • Vicky32 3.2.6
        26 August 2012 at 6:39 pm

        It’s horrific; whatever happened then, we’d have been speakin German by the 1950′s if it wasn’t for the U.S.

        Complete and utter bollices! I know it’s widely believed (in NZ and in the USA itself) but it’s complete nonsense. It’d be truer to say ‘we’d have been speaking German by the 1950′s if it wasn’t for the U.S.S.R’ – but the truth is that those opposing the Axis power were called the Allies for a reason.
         

    • Dr Terry 3.3
      25 August 2012 at 11:58 am

      And now they are after Assange’s scalp (WikiLeaks) for daring to show the world just what they are!

      • OneTrack 3.3.1
        25 August 2012 at 7:04 pm

        You mean the swedes? I dont think they are after his scalp. They just want to interview him regarding some minor charges that nobody cares about anymore ie rape.

  4. Wairua 4
    25 August 2012 at 9:22 am

    Unless Hurricane Isaac interferes, the US Republican Party will convene next week in Tampa, Florida to nominate the Wall Street raider Mitt Romney for president of the United States.

    http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/08/24/257868/gop-wall-streets-reactionary-party/

  5. Agora 5
    25 August 2012 at 9:46 am

    A lot has been written on Utoya,

    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=utoya

    but the more perceptive and comprehensive commentary may be that of Richard Cottrell ..

    http://progressivepress.com/blog-entry/oslo-down-new-world-order

    with a more comprehensive account in Chapter 23 “22/7: The Massacre at Pleasure Island”,
    in “Gladio: NATOs Dagger at the Heart of Europe”, Progressive Press, May 2012,
    ISBN 1-61577-687-7

    http://www.progressivepress.com

    See also

    http://endthelie.com/2011/07/26/a-norwegians-take-on-the-oslo-and-utoya-attacks-misinformation-misconceptions-and-clarifications/#axzz24V9MYkle

    and

    http://progressivepress.com/author/richard-cottrell

  6. muzza 6
    25 August 2012 at 10:02 am

    “Fog lights also dazzle oncoming drivers when they are used in conditions that are not hampered by fog or snow.”

    Thank you moron Auckland drivers who now use fog lights at night, as the rule it seems, especially all the Subarus which have enormous round lamps, or the SUV drivers whose fog lights strike at eye level!

    You are stupid, dangerous idiots, who sum up nicely why “society” is easy to kill off!

    Edit: Clearly the $150 fines are not working, read, not being enforced!

    • mike e 6.1
      25 August 2012 at 10:47 am

      Muzza i remember the 2008 election campaign when national were going to get tough on boy racers.
      Noisy and unsafe cars were going to be taken off the road well four years on and 2 cars crushed.

      • muzza 6.1.1
        25 August 2012 at 11:19 am

        Personally I don’t give a rats about boy racers, although I understand why some take issue.

        Those using fog lights are as much of a cross section of cultures, classess or whatever you can refer to them, that you might find in AKL. However in using fog lights, they all fall in one category, MORON!

        Wonder what they actually think they are assisting with, if indeed they are thinking at all.

        Perhaps that they can see better on well lit, urban roads, and motorways with them on….Nah, thats not true, but a moron might think that….

        Maybe that others can see them better with 4 lights on in front….Nah thats not true either, only a moron would not stop to think that “if I have 4 lights on, maybe that makes those coming towards me have to strain their eyes, thus making it dangerous for all concerned”

        Indeed thefog light users of AKL, are morons, and there are too many of them. I hardly see a car with fog lights now, not using them, which simply shows that it really is, monkey see, monkey do!

      • OneTrack 6.1.2
        25 August 2012 at 7:08 pm

        Haven’t seen any tv reports on boy racers terrorising neighbourhoods any more either. Maybe the introduction of the law has helped solve the problem. Many people respond to the threat of consequences for their actions – who knew?

  7. Descendant Of Smith 7
    25 August 2012 at 10:07 am

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7545601/Turangis-firebomb-fury

    “The attack drew condemnation from Corrections Minister Anne Tolley, who described it as an “ugly incident”.

    “So-called vigilantes” breaking the law in such a manner would be jailed, she said.”

    Never once considering of course that her own angry words, those of her fellow politicians, those of her right wing supporters, the bile spewed by the Sensible Sentencing Trust, the enviornment created by attacking the most vulnerable day after day after day, the characterisation of the poorest as scum and a drain on society, where the state does not follow correct legal processes, where crime is portrayed as bigger than it is, where laws are passed to erode civil liberties and to invade our privacy, where 0800 numbers are set up to dob in your neighbours, ………

    ……. create an enviornment where people fell justified in taking the law into their own hands.

    And her solution – let’s lock em up.

    At least she does condemn it but doesn’t see that she’s part of the problem and can only see further punishment as the solution.

    • kiwi_prometheus 7.1
      25 August 2012 at 10:38 am

      Good on them for getting him out of their town. Those people are protecting their children because the law won’t.

      “The April report, released to the Waikato Times, said Kihi was at “very-high” risk of reoffending upon release, and the 42-year-old would pose a threat “almost immediately upon release”, without supervision. ”

      He should be locked up permanently till there is treatment that guarantees no more reoffending.

      “supervision” – what, 24 7 forever? Yeah right, 5 minutes lapse and Kihi would be making a bee line for the nearest kiddie.

      Hey DoS, maybe he can move in with your family and you can supervise him. You could get hm doing chores like reading bed time stories to your kids and baby sitting.

      • kiwi_prometheus 7.1.1
        25 August 2012 at 10:41 am

        double post

        • mike e 7.1.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 10:51 am

          He could just join the catholic Church and they will look after him.

          • kiwi_prometheus 7.1.1.1.1
            25 August 2012 at 11:15 am

            Yes, the Church and the Soft On Crime Lefties are in bed together on this issue.

            Well politics does make for strange bed mates…

            • Descendant Of Smith 7.1.1.1.1.1
              25 August 2012 at 11:32 am

              Way to miss the point – though it shouldn’t be surprising that someone who labels themselves Prometheus supports firebombing.

              These offenders have always been in our communities upon the completion of their sentence. You’ll note from the article that he has also been working in that community for the last two years.

              In the past we didn’t resort to fire bombing their homes.

              It’s idiots like you that create that envoirnment and as a society we are all worse off for it.

              It’s nonsense for you to conflate soft on crime with what I said when it’s you that have no respect for the law, the sentence imposed and the management of him post release within legal parameters.

              No doubt you’d also support the firebombing of all the whitecollar crims who have got light sentences and who in my view, who have caused much damage to people as well, or are you selective in which criminals you think we are soft on.

              • kiwi_prometheus …
                25 August 2012 at 11:55 am

                Read an article on Hotchin spotted on the lawn of a beach side mansion in Sydney enjoying the sun. Now if someone had gone up to him and beaten the cunt to within an inch of his life that would be awesome. I would give the guy who did it a pardon, a medal for courage and service to the people of NZ.

                “These offenders have always been in our communities upon the completion of their sentence. You’ll note from the article that he has also been working in that community for the last two years.”

                Meaning what? He’s cured? Get real. What’s he doing at 2am in the morning, on his iPhone lurking in chat rooms posing as a 15 year old or something probably.

                If you walked in on Kihi with his cock in your kids mouth, your bleeding heart would coagulate real fast.

          • Vicky32 7.1.1.1.2
            26 August 2012 at 6:46 pm

            join the catholic Church and they will look after him.

            Childish… 🙁

    • Dr Terry 7.2
      25 August 2012 at 12:01 pm

      Tolley was dangerous enough as Education Minister, so they put her in a new position where she could be much more dangerous still (having NO capacity for personal insight).

      • tc 7.2.1
        25 August 2012 at 2:05 pm

        Tolley follows orders, she’s not driving the agenda. Couldn’t get the job done to the hollowmens satisfaction in education so got handed corrections after crushers term set the balls in motion.

        Tolley, like most of them are simply following a script they didn’t write.

        • Dr Terry 7.2.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 8:46 pm

          And that is what makes her dangerous.

        • Anne 7.2.1.2
          25 August 2012 at 9:14 pm

          Tolley, like most of them are simply following a script they didn’t write.

          Exactly.

          Remember the [insert name here] revelations back in 2009? Actually it was Tolley (or her local secretary) who inadvertently left the [insert name here] in a press release to the Gisborne Herald that gave the game away. Then it was discovered half the Nat. MPs had submitted pretty much the identical press release to their own local papers all in the same week.

    • OneTrack 7.3
      25 August 2012 at 7:10 pm

      What’s your solution – do nothing and say it’s the “system” fault?

  8. Morrissey 8
    25 August 2012 at 11:04 am

    Anybody else see this horror show?

    Just seen a disturbing spot on TV3, featuring a snippet of a discussion, about blogging standards, between puffy ad-man Dave Walden and the grouchy right wing “pundit” Bill Ralston.

    Now, you’ll probably have some idea of who Ralston is. But, even if you did once know who Dave Walden was, you will (if you have any sense) have banished the memory of his gross presence from your conscious mind, so here’s a brief reminder of his career: After several decades making a lot of money purveying mediocre advertisements to New Zealanders, Dave Walden emerged from deserved obscurity to national contempt in 2003, during the height of Americas Cup hype, when he got together with sports radio bigot Murray Deaker to run the ridiculous Blackheart campaign, which was soon forced to disband after one of its “patriotic” followers banned “the traitor” Russell Coutts from his restaurant and other Blackguards started to make threatening phone calls to the families of Coutts’s American crewmen.

    Anyway, here’s that godawful TV3 promo….

    Two unprepossessing men, one of them simply enormous, sit at a round table and smilingly spit poisonous vacuities…

    RALSTON: Blogs are inherently brutal.

    WALDEN: Ho ho ho! How do you rein in Whaleoil, for instance? Ho ho ho!

    RALSTON: Or The Standard? There are some really VICIOUS comments on that blog!

    [END OF CLIP]

    Incredibly, TV3 is using this insalubrious twosome as a TEASER for an upcoming programme.

    • kiwi_prometheus 8.1
      25 August 2012 at 11:24 am

      “RALSTON: Or The Standard? There are some really VICIOUS comments on that blog! ”

      Well he’s not lying. Just look at Felix and her side kick Queen of Manhaters.

      I stopped watching TV years ago. Sometimes when people realise I don’t know what they are on about, when they babble on about their favorite crime/talent/cooking/talk show, they look at me like I’m from another planet.

      • Morrissey 8.1.1
        25 August 2012 at 11:43 am

        I stopped watching TV years ago.

        A major reason you and other sensible people don’t watch much or any TV is because of the baleful influence of mediocre commentators like Ralston and mediocre advertising men like Walden.

        • kiwi_prometheus 8.1.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 12:00 pm

          True.

          There is something about the nature of TV that makes it mediocre or worse.

          I can watch David Lynchs movie “Muholland Drive” repeatedly – it helps that it is almost incomprehensible – but the news that it was going to lead into a TV series left me cold and happy that it never happened.

          Even ad free TV doesn’t improve it enough to get me interested.

          Some wild life docos and some international news like that German DW program maybe.

      • Dr Terry 8.1.2
        25 August 2012 at 12:04 pm

        I no longer watch TV News, for all I seem to get is either John Key or Sonny Bill Williams in quite equal proportions (our nation’s “gods?)

      • Descendant Of Smith 8.1.3
        25 August 2012 at 12:24 pm

        yet KP you’re the bastion of reasoned arguement and peaceful intentions.

        “Now if someone had gone up to him and beaten the cunt to within an inch of his life that would be awesome.”

        At least you hate people you don’t like with equal fervour.

        Your imagining of what goes on in others peoples heads does worry me though. It’s not healthy to have all those thoughts running around in there.

      • QoT 8.1.4
        25 August 2012 at 2:18 pm

        *mwa* *mwa*

      • felix 8.1.5
        25 August 2012 at 5:55 pm

        “Just look at Felix and her side kick Queen of Manhaters.”

        Jeez k_p I’ve already explained this to you. QoT and I are the same person.

  9. Pascal's bookie 9
    25 August 2012 at 12:09 pm

    Folks interested in following what’s going on with extremist politics, and having problems finding stuff that isn’t just as daft, might find this site useful;

    http://extremisproject.org/category/analysis/

    Academics and analysts, rather than polemecists such as what are found at infowars and the like.

    Their initial reflection on the breivik verdict is here:

    http://extremisproject.org/2012/08/the-wider-implications-of-the-breivik-verdict/

    That is why a verdict of sanity has wider implications and one of insanity would have been a disaster. Insanity would have explained it away and the hard questions about the nature of the threat could have been avoided.

    • Colonial Viper 9.1
      25 August 2012 at 12:19 pm

      Yeah, the Norwegians are taking the hard road of examining a lot of bad stuff out in public.

  10. Draco T Bastard 10
    25 August 2012 at 12:38 pm

    Bad news brings hints of more stimulus, drives a summer rally

    This summer’s stock market rally has had an unusual driver: Bad news.

    The global economy is weakening, corporate profits have been struggling to match forecasts and Europe’s sovereign-debt crisis lingers on.

    But in the upside-down world of investing, gloomy conditions are feeding expectations that the world’s most important central banks are about to take action with a powerful round of economic stimulus – sooner rather than later.

    Interesting if true and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was. If there is going to be a QE3 it will most likely be along the lines of the last ones and so a few rich people will get quite a bit better off, the collapse of the financial system will slow somewhat and millions of people around the world will find themselves struggling even more.

    Later in the piece:

    Either way, it underlines how the market has come to rely upon assistance from policy makers. “It’s incredible that the market needs such hand-holding from the Fed,” said David Rosenberg, chief economist and strategist at Gluskin Sheff + Associates, in a note.

    No, it’s not incredible, it’s normal. The ‘market’ doesn’t fucken work.

    • kiwi_prometheus 10.1
      25 August 2012 at 12:48 pm

      I like Steve Kleen’s Debt Watch site.

      He takes down the whole orthodox economic theory neo classicalism. Offers an alternative theory based in real life not pure abstract models.

      That’s the failure of the mainstream Left, they still subscribe to neo classical economics. While the wing nuts still cling to some form of Marxism.

      • Colonial Viper 10.1.1
        25 August 2012 at 12:57 pm

        Marx was spot on regarding many issues of social classes, class conflict and the alienation of workers from their own society (and own economic value).

        • kiwi_prometheus 10.1.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 3:57 pm

          Sure his contribution to political philosophy ( I’m chucking in economics, sociology and even literature with that ) is massive.

          “Religion is…the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.”

          But the central idea of Dialectical Materialism was a Fail.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.2
        25 August 2012 at 1:59 pm

        That’s Keen and, yes, he does destroy the neo-liberal paradigm quite well but he’s still a capitalist. In other words, he hasn’t quite worked out that capitalism is the problem.

        While the wing nuts still cling to some form of Marxism.

        No, we seem to be out inventing new types of economics. If you want a solution – look to the radical left. The right, which includes Labour, are still trying to get capitalism to work even though it’s repeatedly failed.

        • kiwi_prometheus 10.1.2.1
          25 August 2012 at 3:47 pm

          Capitalism hasn’t repeatedly failed.

          It goes through boom bust cycles.

          How severe that is depends on the success of the regulations in place. The neo liberals were crowing about the “Great Moderation” a few years ago. Everybodys boat rising on a steadily rising tide of affluence in a low inflation environment.

          Capitalism is extremely creative and has generated enormous wealth, more than any other economic arrangement so far.

          Will it be replaced eventually with something else? Probably.

          Marx was about the last of the system builders. He took a punt on “Dialectical Materialism” and lost the bet, with no End of History or Socialist Utopia in sight.

          “No, we seem to be out inventing new types of economics.”

          And why not, economics is a speculative, philosophical field. New ideas and insights are needed.

          Reheated Marxism from the Radical Left would be another epic fail.

          • Colonial Viper 10.1.2.1.1
            25 August 2012 at 3:51 pm

            Capitalism hasn’t repeatedly failed.

            It goes through boom bust cycles.

            We are not in a cyclical boom/bust period. This is a secular depression. The fact that neoliberal economics (as opposed to “capitalism” which we have not had for many years now) can’t recognise that is a severe failing of that mode of thinking.

            Reheated Marxism from the Radical Left would be another epic fail.

            Marxian thinking is advancing rapidly and I think that it holds many promising approaches to the future, particularly when it is paired with democratic socialism.

            • kiwi_prometheus 10.1.2.1.1.1
              25 August 2012 at 4:14 pm

              Sorry I probably used ‘cycle’ that in the field of economics has a very specific usage.

              Maybe I could just say capitalism goes through booms and busts. Whether short and shallow like the early 80s or big time 1930s and the Long Depression back in the late(?) 1800s.

              The philospher John Ralston Saul argued the world slid into a depression with the Winter of Discontent 1973/4, and a debt driven self delusion in the West has prevailed since.

              “Marxian thinking is advancing rapidly”

              That’s like claiming Flat Earth thinking is advancing rapidly.

              Its over, ok? Whatever it is you are referring to it can’t be Marxist anymore except in name.

              You do know about dialectical philosophy End of History, Hegel etc, right?

              • Colonial Viper …
                25 August 2012 at 4:20 pm

                Its over, ok? Whatever it is you are referring to it can’t be Marxist anymore except in name.

                Because you say so? Marxian theory and philosophy continues to be developed all around the world, and much more so in the preceeding 5 years.

                You do know about dialectical philosophy End of History, Hegel etc, right?

                Not so much, I never took much time to study dialectic materialism. But I know as a method it is still considered of use.

                Also I will repeat – its been many years since the world economy has been capitalist. Crony capitalism perhaps, or more likely, a kleptocracy.

                • kiwi_prometheus …
                  25 August 2012 at 6:06 pm

                  Kleptocracy is a kind of political regime.

                  Capitalism is an economic arrangement.

                  I think the latter would struggle under the former because of private property issues LOL.

                  Capitalism chaffs under democracy, it seems happiest with a “business friendly” dictatorship.

                  “Not so much, I never took much time to study dialectic materialism.”

                  If I was to ask a self proclaimed Christian about Salvation and he replied “Salvation? What’s Salvation?”, I would be thinking what kind of Christian is this?!

                  • fnjckg …
                    25 August 2012 at 6:17 pm

                    one works out ones own salvation with fear and trembling
                    often subsequent to a revelation

                    • kiwi_prometheus …
                      25 August 2012 at 6:38 pm

                      Well that’s the point, if some is calling themselves a Christian, they should have experienced the revelation about Salvation.

                      Just like someone touting Marx should know what Dialectical Materialism is.

                      “Religion is..the heart of a heartless world, the soul of soulless conditions.”

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    25 August 2012 at 7:52 pm

                    Capitalism is an economic arrangement.

                    No, capitalism is socio-economic and, IMO, more social as it raises a few people above others.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  25 August 2012 at 7:25 pm

                  Kleptocracy is a kind of political regime.

                  Capitalism is an economic arrangement.

                  Your definitions are arbitrary and don’t describe what is happening now in real life.

              • fnjckg …
                25 August 2012 at 5:57 pm

                foi-fullofit comes to mind

          • Draco T Bastard 10.1.2.1.2
            25 August 2012 at 4:15 pm

            It goes through boom bust cycles.

            Another description of which is repeatedly failing.

            Capitalism is extremely creative and has generated enormous wealth, more than any other economic arrangement so far.

            Prove it.

            Consider though, before governments and unions took a hand in the 19th century:
            Poverty was increasing and, in general, living standards were decreasing while a few got richer (this was true under the previous feudalism as well so not a lot of change there).
            The space program and all the innovation that it spawned was fully funded by the government and not capitalists.
            People tend to be innovative without capitalism, People have ideas all the time.

            In fact, IMO:
            1.) Capitalism today is actually preventing many innovations through excessive restrictions on peoples thought (yes, IMO, we actually have Though Crime) through patent and other oppressive laws.
            2.) Capitalism could not come about without the initial success of commun1sm producing enough excess so that some people could be removed from the necessary work of maintaining the group.

            • TheContrarian 10.1.2.1.2.1
              25 August 2012 at 4:26 pm

              “Capitalism could not come about without the initial success of commun1sm producing enough excess so that some people could be removed from the necessary work of maintaining the group.”

              Huh? What the hell are you talking about? The success of commun1sm?
              Care to clarify your bizarre contentions?

              • Draco T Bastard …
                25 August 2012 at 4:44 pm

                Communities are inherently commun1st – people working together so that everyone survives. That’s the initial point and what brings about enough surplus that allows capitalism and its hierarchical predecessors such as feudalism to exist at all.

                I’m not talking about either Marxist or Leninist commun1sm.

                • TheContrarian …
                  25 August 2012 at 4:48 pm

                  How far back are you going here though? Where/when is/was this ‘initial point’?

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    25 August 2012 at 5:38 pm

                    I’m thinking before the advent of agriculture so 5 to 10 thousand years ago. Sumerian writings from 5000 years ago show the same problems occurring then under their hierarchical system as what we see now. Extreme poverty for the workers and extreme wealth for the priests.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      25 August 2012 at 5:44 pm

                      You think 5 – 10,000 years ago people weren’t still robbing from each other, murdering each? You think there were no hierarchical systems?

                      You got any examples to back up your claim that Communities 5 – 10000 years ago were inherently commun1st?

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      25 August 2012 at 7:32 pm

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years

                      The author supports that originally credit systems developed as means of account much before the advent of coinage around 600 BC, and can still be seen operating in non-monetary economies. The idea of barter, on the other hand, seems only to apply for limited exchanges between different societies that held no frequent contact and often were in a context of ritualized warfare, rendering its conceptualization among economists as a myth. As an alternative explanation for the creation of economic life, the author suggests that it originally related to social currencies, closely related to non-market quotidian interactions among a community and based on the “everyday commun1sm” that is based on mutual expectations and responsibilities among individuals. This type of economy is, then, contrasted with the moral foundations of exchange, based on formal equality and reciprocity (but not necessarily leading to market relations) and hierarchy, based on clear inequalities that tend to crystallize in customs and castes.

                      And remember this bit Communities are inherently commun1st so, in theory, even today’s capitalist societies have an inherent commun1sm.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      25 August 2012 at 7:43 pm

                      What’s your point?

                      You think 5 – 10,000 years ago people weren’t still robbing from each other, murdering each? You think there were no hierarchical systems?

                      There have been caste systems throughout human history which would antithetical to communism no?

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      25 August 2012 at 7:56 pm

                      You think there were no hierarchical systems?

                      No, I’m thinking that it would have been more ‘flat’ as the community would have been more to a human scale – maybe a couple of hundred people who knew each other and where people would have had closer to an equal say. Where theft and murder would not have been tolerated at all.

                    • RedLogix …
                      25 August 2012 at 8:32 pm

                      I agree with DtB. You only have to look at the handful of hunter-gatherer societies left on earth today to see something of what DtB is driving at. Those that have not been compromised by the need to compete for territory, or contact with hostile neighbours … are generally rather more egalitarian and much lower stressed people than we are.

                      And if you’ve had the privilege of spending any real time with them, it’s apparent how happy they are; this despite their lack of access to modern science, health care and conveniences. While their life is very different with it’s own drawbacks, aspects of our lives … like addictions, mental illnesses, depression, anxiety, rape, murder and chronic degenerative illnesses like cancer, diabetes, cardiac attacks and the like are almost unknown.

                      Which strongly suggests that many of these dysfunctional aspects of our own society are NOT innate. That it IS possible for us to devise a better way of living.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      25 August 2012 at 10:24 pm

                      “No, I’m thinking that it would have been more ‘flat’ as the community would have been more to a human scale – maybe a couple of hundred people who knew each other and where people would have had closer to an equal say. Where theft and murder would not have been tolerated at all.”

                      A flat community of a couple hundred? A family group? Applying a modern political definition like ‘Commun1sm” to a group completely removed from how we live is facile at best.
                      People still warred, there was rape, there was theft. And there is always a dominant feature, a hierarchy. A learned alpha, a holy man.
                      An egalitarian ‘group’ is not an egalitarian society by any measure. One group of egalitarian would still fight another group over resources. In fact, I have an extended family and group of close friends numbering about 200 say. We don’t rob and hurt each other. But we are living in a capitalist society still.

                      @Redlogix – your comment is even more spurious.

                      “addictions, mental illnesses, depression, anxiety, rape, murder and chronic degenerative illnesses like cancer, diabetes, cardiac attacks and the like are almost unknown. ”

                      But deaths from childbirth, disease, infected wisdom tooth and relatively minor accidents going untreated would be pretty common place.

                      “Which strongly suggests that many of these dysfunctional aspects of our own society are NOT innate.”
                      Do you think 10000 years ago people were living some sort of blissful existence? There was no theft murder or rape?

                    • TheContrarian …
                      25 August 2012 at 10:40 pm

                      “Which strongly suggests that many of these dysfunctional aspects of our own society are NOT innate”

                      If you look at our evolutionary chain, we are members of the hominid family. The Great Apes. Or closet biological relatives: the Gorilla, the chimps, the Orangutan et al all have varying degree of social hierarchy and some outcast others from the group.

                    • weka …
                      25 August 2012 at 10:52 pm

                      Contrarian, there is evidence of egalitarian societies. Start here
                       
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilinear
                       
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy
                       
                      Marija Gimbutas’ work will give you an archaeological perspective.
                       
                      This isn’t to say that these societies are all peace and love. In fact it’s a bias of patriarchal cultures to set up that false dichotomy: if it’s not hierarchical and violent like our culture then it has to be peace and light, or it’s not real.
                       
                      I don’t see any evidence that murder, rape and theft exists in all societies to the same extent they do in ours.
                       

                    • TheContrarian …
                      25 August 2012 at 11:21 pm

                      You are missing the point. humans, as social animals, form groups like Wolves, Lion, Ants, Apes as like all social animals. Within that group there are innate hierarchies. An alpha male for example. But the group operates cohesively more less.
                      But like social animals, as social animals, we war with other groups. They steal from their opponent for food or territory. Mating rights etc.
                      That is not an egalitarian society. It is like you and your group of friends and family. You trust each other not to rob or cheat each other. But that doesn’t mean you have an egalitarian, peaceful society.

                      “I don’t see any evidence that murder, rape and theft exists in all societies to the same extent they do in ours.”

                      You be pretty naive not to think live was fairly brutal 10000 years ago.

                    • weka …
                      25 August 2012 at 11:40 pm

                      “I don’t see any evidence that murder, rape and theft exists in all societies to the same extent they do in ours.”
                      You be pretty naive not to think live was fairly brutal 10000 years ago.
                       

                      How so? What evidence do you have? And are you saying that all societies 10,000 yrs ago were the same? What evidence do you have?
                       
                       

                      You are missing the point. humans, as social animals, form groups like Wolves, Lion, Ants, Apes as like all social animals.
                       

                      Humans are not like other animals though, we have evolved different social norms.

                       
                       
                      Within that group there are innate hierarchies. An alpha male for example. But the group operates cohesively more less.
                       

                      Yes, hierarchies and other social organisational structures exist, but that doesn’t preclude egalitarianism. Did you even look at the lists of egalitarian societies in the links I gave?

                       

                      But like social animals, as social animals, we war with other groups. They steal from their opponent for food or territory. Mating rights etc.
                      That is not an egalitarian society.
                       

                      I disagree. You are making out that all societies the same, and they’re not. You’re also making egalitarian an absolute, which makes your argument theoretical. I’m talking about actual societies that exhibit traits generally considered to be egalitarian but that exist/ed in real places at real times that included having warring neighbours. I’m not talking about some utopian ideal as imagined on this side of the patriarchy.

                       

                      There is nothing inconsistent with an egalitarian society also being able to defend itself. I think you are confusing societies that do that, and maintain their territorial boundaries that way, with hierarchical societies that expand, conquer and colonise. This is the point about 10,000 years ago. That’s when humans moved into agriculture, and were able to increase their populations to the point they had to engage in expansionist war. Those societies tend to become more patriarchal and less egalitarian over time.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      26 August 2012 at 12:35 am

                      You are still missing the point.
                      I am not denying that there units which operate more or less egalitarian but that murder, war, pillaging and rape are not recent inventions. That saying things were better 10000 years ago or that society was more peaceful and/or civilized is to have a serious rose-tinted view of mans, an animals, savage nature.

                      One group of egalitarians can still treat another group as a lower caste or an enemy. Will treat opposing factions as lesser and/or as the other.

                      To say:
                      “Which strongly suggests that many of these dysfunctional aspects of our own society are NOT innate.”
                      Is a rather extraordinary claim.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      26 August 2012 at 1:20 am

                      Go read the book I linked to up a few posts and read this. I think you’ll find that your every social group was a bunch murdering, rabid dogs is overly simplistic and naive.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      26 August 2012 at 2:14 am

                      “every social group was a bunch murdering, rabid dogs is overly simplistic and naive.”

                      Nice hyperbolic strawman.

                    • RedLogix …
                      26 August 2012 at 7:27 am

                      But deaths from childbirth, disease, infected wisdom tooth and relatively minor accidents going untreated would be pretty common place.

                      Which has to be the very essence of spurious yourself. Of course I never said otherwise. The usual estimate for infancy mortality in pre-agricultural societies is around 50%, and of course people might well die of accidents and injuries we can treat quite easily. But that is entirely tangential to the point I made… that most of the degenerative and dysfunctional conditions we assume are normal in our modern industrialised societies are in fact rare or unknown in theirs.

                      We now have enough sound science to hazard a good guess at what the root cause of these problems are; that the patriarchal, property owning capitalist structures of our society innately creates gross inequality of both wealth and power, which in turn triggers poverty, steep social gradients and stress… a feature largely absent human life for the 4-6 million years we were evolving prior to the advent of agriculture.

                      It does not take much imagination to believe in the possibility that we COULD devise a form of society that combined the best of both worlds; one that had sufficient science, education, health care and resources absent in hunter-gather societies, while also avoiding the degeneration and dysfunction commonplace in ours.

            • kiwi_prometheus 10.1.2.1.2.2
              25 August 2012 at 6:35 pm

              “Another description of which is repeatedly failing.”

              Or repeatedly succeeding. After all never in history has the living standards of so many improved. Stalls and set backs but in the long run rising living standards.

              “Prove it.”

              “Consider though, before governments and unions took a hand in the 19th century:
              Poverty was increasing and, in general, living standards were decreasing while a few got richer”

              That’s a failure of raw capitalism to distribute wealth, not produce it. All those great political reforms achieved in the Western democracies sought to harness the unsurpassed creative wealth producing capability of Capitalism while doing away with or ameliorating the downsides of Capitalism – child labour, extreme boom bust events, environmental degradation etc.

              “The space program and all the innovation that it spawned was fully funded by the government and not capitalists.”

              Sure the private sector doesn’t have a monopoly on innovation. Chomsky describes how most US research is done in tax payer funded universities, then private capital actual buys the ideas/research they think will fly and puts it into action. Has worked a treat for the US.

              “Capitalism today is actually preventing many innovations through excessive restrictions on peoples thought (yes, IMO, we actually have Though Crime) through patent and other oppressive laws.”

              Patents are necessary to protect inventions. Who would spend time and money on an idea if they know someone else can walk off with it. Maybe there does need to be reform, I don’t think that is a argument against capitalism though.

              “Capitalism could not come about without the initial success..”

              Sure, Capitalism doesn’t exist in a historical vacuum, but again not sure this is an argument against Capitalism.

              • Colonial Viper …
                25 August 2012 at 7:24 pm

                Capitalism is over mate, long gone. The only remnants left are crony capitalism/kleptocracy.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                25 August 2012 at 7:49 pm

                Patents are necessary to protect inventions.

                No they’re not. Patents are there solely to create a restriction that otherwise wouldn’t be there. Inventions don’t need to be protected but shared so that people can take the ideas and run with them. As a good example, Linux:

                Linux was originally developed as a free operating system for Intel x86-based personal computers. It has since been ported to more computer hardware platforms than any other operating system. It is a leading operating system on servers and other big iron systems such as mainframe computers and supercomputers:[13][14][15][16] more than 90% of today’s 500 fastest supercomputers run some variant of Linux,[17] including the 10 fastest.

                All those great political reforms achieved in the Western democracies sought to harness the unsurpassed creative wealth producing capability of Capitalism while doing away with or ameliorating the downsides of Capitalism

                But it’s not capitalism that does that but people. That innovation would be there no matter what system we had.

                Sure the private sector doesn’t have a monopoly on innovation. Chomsky describes how most US research is done in tax payer funded universities, then private capital actual buys the ideas/research they think will fly and puts it into action. Has worked a treat for the US.

                And think of what would happen if those ideas were freely available instead and that everyone had equal access to resources to do something with them instead of those resources being limited to the control of a few people.

                Who would spend time and money on an idea if they know someone else can walk off with it.

                The government and, then, see the above example.

                After all never in history has the living standards of so many improved.

                But those rising living standards weren’t due to capitalism but due to the socialism that reigned in the predation of the capitalists. If left alone we’d have rising poverty, collapsing markets and the rich being bailed out by the communities…

                Oh, wait, that’s what we do have.

                Sure, Capitalism doesn’t exist in a historical vacuum, but again not sure this is an argument against Capitalism.

                That’s a failure of raw capitalism to distribute wealth, not produce it.

                Capitalism is a system designed to produce maldistribution of a communities resources. It’s very good at that but it destroys the community that it arises in.

        • OneTrack 10.1.2.2
          25 August 2012 at 7:16 pm

          But communism doesn’t go through cycles. It fails spectacularly once, and then that country never tries it again.

  11. Georgecom 11
    25 August 2012 at 1:34 pm

    Over the past 2-3 years I have enjoyed seeing the ACT party disintegrate.

    Rodney ‘perk buster’ Hyde perked his girlfriend/wife across to Europe.
    Semi senile ideologue Roger Douglas was also caught with his snout in the trough because ‘he is entitled’.

    They were both exposed as pocket lining hypocrites.

    National knew it had to do something to try and shore up ACT so it installed the bumbling truth forgetting ideologue Don Brash as puppet leader.
    Brash predicted 6-8% of the party vote but ended up helping cost John Key a parliament majority and needing to rely on a tatty coalition government.

    National was left relying on the self serving egotist John Banks. ‘Nothing to fear, nothing to hide’ Banks then completely lost his memory and finished off any credibility he may have had.

    As the electoral coalition prepares to put the final nail in the ACT coffin we see ACTites moaning about others attempting to ‘gerry mander’ and ‘game’ the political system. Obviously no mirrors in ACTite homes.

    National is left with the problem of needing to rebuild a coalition partner. Your next up Colin Craig.

    • Colonial Viper 11.1
      25 August 2012 at 1:45 pm

      Colin Craig and his new found creationist partner John Banks.

      • bad12 11.1.1
        25 August 2012 at 2:18 pm

        It looks like that will be ‘the plan’ for 2014 especially if MMP remains the same as what thebsytem is now,

        Craig’s God botherers could if He spends another million possibly capture 3% of the vote and coat-tail that into Parliament on the back of Banks holding Epsom,

        On current trends tho i doubt even that will be enough to install Slippery and National back into the Treasury Benches in 2014,

        Add in ‘the Hairdo’ and the Maori Party and it would be close although even that relies upon the Maori Party hanging on to all 3 seats…

        • Georgecom 11.1.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 3:42 pm

          A reason why we want the electorate seat – party vote link severed, stop Key-Banks rorting the system again.

          2005 Clark predicted the end of ACT. Will be nice to see the rotting carcass gone in 2014.

          • McFlock 11.1.1.1.1
            25 August 2012 at 4:20 pm

            I drove past the actoids in the Epsom electorate campaign. I’m not entirely sure that Banks’ supporters this time will consist of pale, spotty toryboys who think that buying pubes on trademe is the same as being mature enough to grow your own.

            • muzza 11.1.1.1.1.1
              25 August 2012 at 5:26 pm

              It was somewhat odd how the ACT on Campus crew were mostly young white boys…I just was not able to decide if they were for real or not!

              They popped up all over the place too, like randomly on roundabouts in the morning during the campaign.

    • prism 11.2
      25 August 2012 at 6:19 pm

      Georgecom
      Squawk. Don’t count your chickens till their heads have actually been lopped.

  12. Pascal's bookie 12
    25 August 2012 at 2:10 pm

    hey CV.

    Reporting WTC 6 as collapsed 20 minutes before it actually did was the classic. It was never satisfactorily explained how that line was approved and inserted into the news presenter’s script, or where the original report originated from. It was put down to: it was an error, and errors happen from time to time. Except of course it was not an error, it proved to be completely correct.

    It is classic of truther reasoning for sure. Ignorance of how the media work, flippant dismissal of explanations, a faulty occam’s razor, question begging, the works.

    BBC broadcasters on breaking live news stories don’t have nuch in the way of a script. they are largely winging it. Their feeders will be watching other news organisations and relaying info. That’s why you hear so much” we are hearing reports” etc.

    It’s well known now that the Fire dept had pulled its teams out of WTC7 well before the BBC report of its collapse. Why? As they stated, they were convinced that it was going to collapse. Other news orgs were reporting this.

    So the competing theories are that:

    1) the BBC had reports from other orgs saying that the NY fire dept believed ‘The building is going to collapse. The BBC then fucked up and broadcast that a ‘collapse had already happenned’.The building then collapsed as predicted by the fire fighters who had been in the building fighting the massive fire.

    or 2) The building was brought down by explosives, and the people who brought it down, had told the BBC in advance that this was going to happen ( they told the BBC this for some totally unexplained reason). The BBC then fucked up by announcing it early, totally giving the game away.

    • Colonial Viper 12.1
      25 August 2012 at 3:31 pm

      It’s well known now that the Fire dept had pulled its teams out of WTC7 well before the BBC report of its collapse. Why? As they stated, they were convinced that it was going to collapse. Other news orgs were reporting this.

      Emergency responders were told that the building was about to collapse, and they were ordered to clear the area urgently.

      Firefighters are not trained to assess whether or not a steel framed office tower is going to collapse, because steel framed office towers do not collapse.

      or 2) The building was brought down by explosives, and the people who brought it down, had told the BBC in advance that this was going to happen ( they told the BBC this for some totally unexplained reason).

      It was a mix up. Mix ups happen, as you say.

      AE911 on WTC7

      • Pascal's bookie 12.1.1
        25 August 2012 at 4:30 pm

        Great source. And I do so love youtube clips. Why don’t truthers ever type shit out so it can be easily quoated and analysed? Weird.

        Here’s an interview with the fire dept chief who ordered the pullout:

        http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/Nigro_Daniel.txt

        It’s a really good read. Gripping stuff as he recounts the events as he remembers it happenning.


        Steve Mosiello and Chief Turi told me they had
        been looking for Chief Ganci. They thought they knew where
        he was, unsuccessfully, and they were going back to – I
        walked back down to the area where he was and sometime
        after that they found Chief Ganci. He was like the first
        person that I knew of that they found in the rubble. He
        was somewhere across West Street from the Trade Center.
        The most important operational decision to be made that
        afternoon was the collapse had damaged 7 World Trade
        Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey
        between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very
        heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of
        an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we
        had to give up some rescue operations that were going on
        at the time and back the people away far enough so that if
        7 World Trade did collapse, we wouldnít lose any more
        people.

        Here’s an interview with a firefighter who was heading into wtc7 when the pullout order came through:

        http://www.webcitation.org/5IuRwM61d

        A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what�s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

        But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

        So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

        Those guys are probably working for the bbc though, so whatevs.

      • Pascal's bookie 12.1.2
        25 August 2012 at 4:38 pm

        But if you want to see some video, here’s a short one of the wtc7 and its fire that truthers like to describe as ‘small’. Don’t worry about the voices, that’s just fierfighters talking about it and stuff.

        http://www.911myths.com/WTC7_Smoke.avi

        • muzza 12.1.2.1
          25 August 2012 at 5:36 pm

          The financial regulatory bodies, the banks (owners) and the intelligence services seemed to not be too concerned about losing 7. All those pesky investigations and such about missing trillions etc, all just “went away”, Rumsfeld was stoked!

          Waddafuckencoincidence!

          Edit: Love the site /sarc, PB, and how those on the “it happened the way we were told” side of the debate cling to their “myther” belief. Thats all good bro, you gotta stick to your guns….

          • Pascal's bookie 12.1.2.1.1
            25 August 2012 at 5:48 pm

            That’s a not actually an argument muzza.

            But anyway, take a long look at the video. 3 times. Ask yourself while watching it if you think that the wiring and evrything else needed to demolish a building with explosives would be fine in such a fire.

            makes.no.sense.

            • TheContrarian 12.1.2.1.1.1
              25 August 2012 at 5:54 pm

              Wiring a building to be demolished takes days, weeks even. I am pretty sure people working in the WTC and WTC 7 would have noticed people crawling around laying cables.

              • Colonial Viper …
                25 August 2012 at 6:20 pm

                People are present doing maintenance work on large buildings every day.

                • TheContrarian …
                  25 August 2012 at 7:14 pm

                  Sure but ‘maintenance work’ is slightly different from wiring a building to explode which takes weeks, requires walls to pulled out and charges placed directly onto the pillars. In a building with high security, closed circuit cameras and sniffer dogs.

                  You mention occams razor? Well it is highly unlikely in the extreme that the building could have been wired in such an exacting fashion without anyone being the wiser.

            • muzza 12.1.2.1.1.2
              25 August 2012 at 6:00 pm

              Where did you get that I was making a case from my post PB….thought the waddafuckencoincidence, followed by the /sarc tabs next para down would have ruled that out!

              Ill check the vid when I get a chance, but in the meantime, here is what I mean about the “both sides of the debate” – Note: 5 second google search, no I do not ratify the site, its only to illustrate a point I have made many times!
              I’m sure you could find a site to debunk the pilots site too, which is my point in case you missed it!

              911myths – Given a workover

              9/11 Myths has long been a favorite resource for skeptics and debunkers alike. Its author, Mike Williams, has compiled a collection of straw men, coupled with many distorted interpretations of valid claims. While many of Mike’s “takes” can be dismissed as patently absurd by most of us, his slimy nature and style of addressing these can be deceptive to those who are new to this material and haven’t had time to do their research. Therefore, I think it’s important that we have a thread dedicated to debunking 9/11 Myths. It’s a huge website and so I don’t know if I will ever have the time to write an entire debunk, however, if we all work together on this we’ll have Mike’s site debunked in no time!

              You gotta learn to use your instinct kid….gotta know yourself first though…That said, 911 is about as obvious as it gets, which is all the more surprising why some just don’t (want to) see it!

              http://pilotsfor911truth.org/

              • Pascal's bookie …
                25 August 2012 at 6:26 pm

                I’m all about the discernment muzza.

                That vid isn’t long. It’s seconds of raw footage of the wtc7 fire with responders talking in the background.

                Funny thing is, it appears you looked at the url and googled it, and followed up a link to a truther site, cut and pasted some stuff over here that what? Attacks that url based on nothing at all. Apparently sthe guy is snarky and stuff, and some of his stuff can just be instantly dismissed by those in the know, but they’ll get around to debunking it sometime. meh.

                In that time you could have looked at that raw footage that doesn’t conatin any argumentation whatsoever. It doesn’t tell you what to think, it’s just raw data. A few seconds of footage of the fire, and some firefighters talking on the day.

                My discernment bells are wringing. clangclangclang.

                • muzza …
                  25 August 2012 at 11:07 pm

                  Funny thing is, it appears you looked at the url and googled it, and followed up a link to a truther site, cut and pasted some stuff over here that what? Attacks that url based on nothing at all. Apparently sthe guy is snarky and stuff, and some of his stuff can just be instantly dismissed by those in the know, but they’ll get around to debunking it sometime. meh.

                  Actually I could not get the video to play, just the sound, so went to the root of the url, where I found the name of Mike Williams, the rest you are exactly right, which was my intention, so its good to see you’re keeping up.
                  Your words are exactlly my point, the myths and pilot site are basically the same thing, and you can find many others, all which contradict, and attempt to “debunk truth and fiction”. The reality is that you just have to go with what feels right, and you are sticking to your position, and I’ll stick to mine.
                  I do not pretend, nor will I, that I know the actually reasoning etc, or the who did what. all my position on this site is, is that the story the world as been sold, is 100% grade A, BS!

                  Still amazing that with all which has come to pass since before it, and certainly since then, still has some people reaching for the “official story”, all while the world goes down the can on pretty much every axis going!

            • Colonial Viper 12.1.2.1.1.3
              25 August 2012 at 6:19 pm

              What that video shows is an assymetrical office fire affecting some of the floors and predominantly on one side of the building. This is in addition to the assymetrical damage to one side and one corner of the building from the destruction of the twin towers.

              You’re a fan of occam’s razor, right?

              So explain how assymetrical office fires and assymetrical structural damage causes entirely symmetrical, simultaneous failure of the load bearing structures of the building.

              Ask yourself while watching it if you think that the wiring and evrything else needed to demolish a building with explosives would be fine in such a fire.

              FFS man you are so proud of your research, yet you make the most fundamental oversights. Thermite cutting charges cannot be set off by conventional black powder fuses or explosives detonators. They can be designed to be resistant to temperatures found in ordinary fires, and are instead susceptible only to the temperatures released by burning metal reactions. Other high explosives, e.g. C-4, also cannot be detonated by ordinary fire.

              • TheContrarian …
                25 August 2012 at 6:26 pm

                CV, do you actually think there were charges set off in the building?

                • Colonial Viper …
                  25 August 2012 at 7:16 pm

                  The simultaneous collapse of all sides of a tall building, vertically and directly on to its own footprint, is highly reminiscent of the kind of controlled demolition implosion everyone is familiar with.

                • OneTrack …
                  25 August 2012 at 7:29 pm

                  TheContrarian – George Bush did it. Personally. Dick Cheney held the drill. It’s obvious when you think about it. The alternative is that friendly muslims conspired to kill 3000 american citizens in the biggest terrorist attack of all time. Islam is the religion of peace so if couldnt be them. And we already hate america and George Bush so it must be him. Logical proof.

              • Pascal's bookie …
                25 August 2012 at 6:37 pm

                We can talk about the nature of the fire or the collapse at some other time. I’ll just note in passing that the fire has been often called small, and that any damage from the collapse of wtc1&2 on wtc7 have been denied by truthers. Both those claims are false. the fire was extensive, as was the damage.

                What we are talking about here is the bbc report.

                You maintain that the fire dept were ordered out by, err, you didn’t say.

                I linked to some interviews that strongly suggest otherwise.

                Those interviews support the theory that the FD was convinced wtc7 was coming down due to the fire, and that it is therefore plausible that the bbc mistook a report that the building was going to collapse, for one that said it had collapsed.

                • Tiger Mountain …
                  25 August 2012 at 7:20 pm

                  Car 54 where are you? come back Ev to sort this out.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  25 August 2012 at 7:22 pm

                  Those interviews support the theory that the FD was convinced wtc7 was coming down due to the fire,

                  Sky scrapers do not come down due to fire.

                  I’ll just note in passing that the fire has been often called small, and that any damage from the collapse of wtc1&2 on wtc7 have been denied by truthers.

                  “Any damage”? Untrue. Architects and Engineers for 9/11 state unequivocally that WTC7 was damaged, and that there was a fire, and that both are wholly inadequate explanations for what happened next.

                  You maintain that the fire dept were ordered out by, err, you didn’t say.

                  Seriously, how the fuck would I know who ordered them out, but I do know that they were told to leave; the links you provided suggested that the building felt/sounded unstable to those inside and they decided that a collapse was imminent. What they actually based that on who knows.

                  We can talk about the nature of the fire or the collapse at some other time

                  It was an assymetrical office fire insufficient to melt or weaken structural steel framing.

                  • TheContrarian …
                    25 August 2012 at 7:35 pm

                    There is nothing more desperate than a 9/11 truther trotting out long disproved assertions.

                    There is no way the charges could have been placed without anyone noticing.

      • McFlock 12.1.3
        25 August 2012 at 5:01 pm

        Whether or not firefighters had been trained to assess if steel framed structures were about to collapse, they were on an exceptionally steep learning curve – what with two prior examples that day.

        • Colonial Viper 12.1.3.1
          25 August 2012 at 6:22 pm

          ? seriously? A lot of people watched the planes fly into the Twin Towers, I suppose that meant they could now pilot a plane as well?

    • muzza 12.2
      25 August 2012 at 3:52 pm

      PB, I enjoy your comments, which are usually solid and make sense, but use of the term, truther, just silly really.

      http://christchurchcitylibraries.com/heritage/newspapers/star23nov1963/#NZperspective

      Things do not happen. Things are made to happen. John F. Kennedy

  13. Morrissey 13
    25 August 2012 at 2:43 pm

    It’s Banksy time again…
    DUM QUOTE OF THE WEEK
    Award No. 2: for the week ending 25/08/2012

    This week’s winner—and the first female holder of the John Banks Trophy—is one Monique Watson who, in response to a timely post reminding us of one of the atrocities perpetrated in our name in Afghanistan, issued the following solemn assurance…

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    “Obama has an investigation into it.”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    That’s an unimprovable line, a black comedy masterpiece that could have been delivered by the Rt. Hon. Member for Epsom himself.

    If you have a taste for the truly awful and would like to experience the whole of her remarkable post, simply click here….
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-25082012/#comment-512875

    Previous Banksy winners…
    No. 1: Te Reo Putake (awarded 17/8/2012)

  14. captain hook 14
    25 August 2012 at 3:18 pm

    How about the mysogony from Mohammad Amir on the front page of the Dompost this morning.
    “Women have a range of veils to hide their beauty (!) with a minimum requirement to expose hands (?) and face”.
    Who imposes this minimum requirement?
    This stuff is all about owning women and is alien to New Zealand and democracy.
    Culture is the analysis and comparison of learned patterns of behaviour that enable humans to master the natural world.
    Veils and other nonsense are just psychological bullying and should be shown up for what it is.

    • weka 14.1
      25 August 2012 at 3:25 pm

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/arts/7545600/Men-banned-from-Muslim-documentary
       

      Men will be banned from watching a video display coming to a Lower Hutt art gallery that shows Muslim women without veils.
      The Dowse Art Museum is preparing to host the world premiere of the art installation – despite advice from the Human Rights Commission that not letting men inside could be seen as sexual discrimination.
      The work, by Qatari writer and film-maker Sophia Al-Maria, is called Cinderazahd: For Your Eyes Only. It features female family members and friends getting ready for a cousin’s wedding, without wearing hijabs, or veils.
      Dowse director Cam McCracken confirmed Al-Maria’s work would be off-limits to men, in keeping with the artist’s wishes. “I haven’t seen the work, and I won’t.
      “I’ve bought into the fact that we take this work on the proviso that no men see it. We respect the artist and the privacy of the women who are portrayed.”
       

    • prism 14.2
      25 August 2012 at 6:16 pm

      Cap’n hook
      All veils are not the same. If Muslim women as part of their religion want to wear what is basically a head scarf I don’t see why not. But the full body one with a grill so the poor lady can just see where she’s going is too much. But the gent referred to seemed to be saying that there are a number of choices for Muslim women.
      Good link on on hijabs – http://www.apologeticsindex.org/505-muslim-veils-hijab-burqa

  15. ropata 15
    25 August 2012 at 3:59 pm

    Jane Clifton gives The Standard a nudge in Will there be a Labour leadership coup?

    … this little eddy of unsourced acrimony was bog standard, and certainly blog standard. What did the damage was the reaction on the blogosphere. Left-wing blog the Standard copped hundreds of comments deploring the perfidy of those who had dared to speak against Cunliffe. Twitter crackled with indignation. On day two, a prominent leftist blogger declared this the last straw, saying he was finished with the Labour Party. Others, too, threw their toys out of the cot and said they were never ever talking to that beastly Labour Party ever again, so there. By day three, a distinctly Stalinist mood had taken hold. Bloggers and their followers were demanding the heads of those who had talked to Garner. Suspects were named and tried in absentia and found definitely guilty. They were to be ritually shamed, demoted, expelled, even flogged. Kabul was too good for them.

    By about day four, most leading leftist bloggers had refreshed their case for replacing David Shearer with the allegedly charm-deficient Cunliffe, and propounded their theories that Shearer is really a Tory. Much was made of Shearer’s speech anecdote about a sickness beneficiary whose neighbour was annoyed that he was able to shin up and down to fix his roof. Shearer didn’t think benefit fraud was fair, either. This made him a dog-whistle beneficiary-basher. It’s possible the only things preventing the cyber-furies from descending on Parliament in temporal form with pitchforks by day five to lay about the caucus and install their man were that a) Parliament wasn’t sitting, b) Cunliffe was on an overseas holiday, and c) while they were out, they might have missed seeing our Olympic team
    🙂

    • QoT 15.1
      25 August 2012 at 4:50 pm

      Crikey, you can tell how little influence the blogosphere has by how violently Clifton has to infantilise it …

    • Draco T Bastard 15.2
      25 August 2012 at 5:44 pm

      I read that piece and really couldn’t find a point in it. It seems that she just wanted to slag off the blogosphere.

    • Jackal 15.3
      25 August 2012 at 5:54 pm

      Just more reactionary drivel from the MSM… I don’t recommend wasting your time reading the whole thing.

    • uke 15.4
      25 August 2012 at 6:02 pm

      “…a distinctly Stalinist mood had taken hold.”

      Revealing that Clifton uses one of the most tired neo-Godwinisms around.

    • prism 15.5
      25 August 2012 at 6:06 pm

      Thanks for that ropata. It’s interesting how much people, who think they are very wise and all knowing like Jane Clifton, can miss when viewing events and comments.

    • Carol 15.6
      25 August 2012 at 7:26 pm

      Isn’t there a little bit of hypocrisy, or at least a contradiction, in declaring blog participants Stalinist and labeling them/us with other derogatory terms?…. used to pass definitive judgement on and dismiss the views of said commenters/bloggers for their/our (allegedly) very biased and one-sided views on things….?

  16. Pascal's bookie 16
    25 August 2012 at 5:17 pm

    another good piece on Breivik here:

    http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=29412

    from a psychiatrist who knows the difference between psychopathy and fac1sm

    • TheContrarian 16.1
      25 August 2012 at 5:22 pm

      Yeah Brevik doesn’t really fit the definition of criminally or legally insane.
      As far as I am aware one of the main considerations in an insanity case is whether the criminal understood his actions were wrong and the acceptance of responsibility.

      Brevik both accepts responsibility and knows what he did was wrong (in the societal sense – he feels he is personally doing the right thing).

      • Pascal's bookie 16.1.1
        25 August 2012 at 5:36 pm

        Yeah, he was quite cler about what he was doing.

        Durinh his testimony he talked about having to steel himself for what he was about to do. The killings wern’t ‘nothing’ to him, they were acts of war.

        What he did wasn’t irrational based on his beliefs. He believes that his society faces an existensial threat from Islam, and that the political elites, particularly those of the left, are at best oblivious to it and at worst actively colluding with it. It’s the same basic thing that pops up at KB. Cultural marxism etc.

        If you actually believe that stuff, then doing something about it becomes a duty. And if you think the political system itself is part of the problem then the something you doa about it is going ot have to be revolutionary. Or more accurately counter-revolutionary.

        • TheContrarian 16.1.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 5:40 pm

          Exactly right. In that light to call him insane is to negate, capriciously, his actions and reasons.

          By doing so you ignore his reasoning, label it insane, and close it to further investigation.
          His beliefs are probably shared by quite a few out there so it could dangerous to call it insane and move on

  17. captain hook 17
    25 August 2012 at 5:19 pm

    she has too many free sausage rolls and rubber chickens legs with the weird hormones and her brain has gone funny.

  18. prism 18
    25 August 2012 at 6:45 pm

    More information has come up about the Tongan NZ policeman killed in Tonga. There had been a NZ police head till fairly recently putting some time into improving unsatisfactory elements in their police force. I hope that the police constables who arrested him as drunk, perhaps rather roughly as there has been mention of assault by them, were not retaliating with negative feelings about the previous head.

    And why would they not give a fellow policeman some collegial respect? Instead they manhandled him themselves and then they put him in a cell where he was at risk from the other occupant/s. Were they motivated by spite or resentment, or some macho competitive instinct ‘Let’s see how big you are then” sort of thing.

    This man had been given an award for bravery. He deserved better. He was harmed in some way by the arresting constables, then put in a cell where they left him at risk, and I think that was willful neglect at the least, and that action should be examined to see if they are actually accessories to manslaughter.

  19. North 19
    25 August 2012 at 6:50 pm

    Unlike Prime News at 5.30 pm today, someone at TV One News at 6.00 pm had the good taste to edit out John Key piously placing his hand on the casket of Luke Tamatea as he moved towards the lectern for, to be frank, yet another political photo opportunity.

    The man is cheap. More disgraceful than Banks.

    For the Key apologists out there who might disingenuously whine that this post dishonours the memory of the three remember this – the slavering servant of Wall Street and the City of London went little leaguing at first instance and in the second instance took less than 24 hours to get right into the politics of it.

    If I’m wrong I suspect Luke Tamatea particularly might forgive me.

    RIP the five of you.

    • idlegus 19.1
      25 August 2012 at 9:11 pm

      + 1, tv3 did pretty much the same, showed Key & Brownlee but no other polys. tv3 then went into a bizarre beat up about pacific/maori culture not wanting play with food (ie:playdoh in kindys), pointless & ignorant.

  20. fnjckg 20
    25 August 2012 at 6:51 pm

    k-p: “Religion”-straw man
    JC-real man
    night all
    sweet “dreams”

  21. North 21
    25 August 2012 at 6:54 pm

    Jane Clifton ? Wasn’t she at some point hooked up with or married or something to Sir Les Patterson aka Murray McCully ?

    • Anne 21.1
      25 August 2012 at 7:49 pm

      Hooked up is my understanding until he found a younger more tasty model… so the story goes.

  22. North 22
    25 August 2012 at 8:46 pm

    So the termites haven’t yet got into that untreated pinus radiata erection hangin’ down inside Sir Les Patterson’s (aka Murray McCully) piss and saliva stained outrageously spaced stripes on the trousers of the suit so favoured by long term public-trough guzzlers of the Beltway ?

    And they have the cheek to nut on about beneficiaries for Christ’s sake !

  23. RedLogix 23
    25 August 2012 at 8:54 pm

    Without wanting to reignite another rehash of the debate I’d respectfully put up this link to an article published by John Pilger just two days ago.

    Four years ago, a barely noticed Pentagon document, leaked by WikiLeaks, described how WikiLeaks and Assange would be destroyed with a smear campaign leading to “criminal prosecution”. On 18 August, the Sydney Morning Herald disclosed, in a Freedom of Information release of official files, that the Australian government had repeatedly received confirmation that the US was conducting an “unprecedented” pursuit of Assange and had raised no objections. Among Ecuador’s reasons for granting asylum is Assange’s abandonment “by the state of which he is a citizen”. In 2010, an investigation by the Australian Federal Police found that Assange and WikiLeaks had committed no crime. His persecution is an assault on us all and on freedom.

    http://www.johnpilger.com/articles/the-pursuit-of-julian-assange-is-an-assault-on-freedom-and-a-mockery-of-journalism

    • prism 23.1
      25 August 2012 at 9:54 pm

      Also for video of Assange see Morrissey here at 2. for link of Assanage talking to Juilia Gillard who has a nice line in tight smiles.

    • weka 23.2
      25 August 2012 at 10:28 pm

      My respect for Pilger just dropped substantially. ‘Sex allegations’? They’re rape allegations, and even if he doesn’t believe they have any validity he should use the proper term. Calling rape sex just marks him as yet another man on the left willing to endorse rape culture as part of his own political agenda.
       
      (also not sure why he thinks it’s ok to call the Guardian perfidious but the Guardian can’t call Assange damaged and callous).

      • muzza 23.2.1
        25 August 2012 at 11:18 pm

        Its really got you all tied up eh Weka, this whole thing.

        Play the ball, not the man!

        • weka 23.2.1.1
          25 August 2012 at 11:29 pm

          Not really muzza, I’ve just been interested to see how rape culture plays out on TS. I know talking about rape culture alot makes some people uncomfortable, but it’s not any different than talking about racism alot or capitalism or whatever.
           
          And I was playing the ball. Did you not see my criticism of Pilger’s ideas? Or do you think I am wrong, and it’s ok for Pilger to call rape sex?
           
          Of course, some men see any critique of rape culture as ‘playing the man’ 🙁

          • muzza 23.2.1.1.1
            26 August 2012 at 9:58 am

            Weka, I just don’t get side-tracked by the distractions, like how words are used interchangeably, because as you can see, it allows for the key points to become blurred in symantics.

            I do take your point however on use of the terminologies, but when in some cases the symantics become the discussion, then the key messages are lost!

            Do I think you’re wrong – Your position is your own, I have no opinion on it!

            Edit: So far as the culture you refer, the only way people can understand such topics, is to have seen the damage done to people first hand by rape. Unfortunately the Assange situation is a circus, which does damage on both sides of the discussion!

            • weka 23.2.1.1.1.1
              26 August 2012 at 10:41 am

              ” because as you can see, it allows for the key points to become blurred in symantics.”
               
              No, I don’t see sorry. The point of my post was that there IS a difference between sex and rape, they are not words that can be used interchangeably. When they are used interchangeably, that’s where the blurring happens. Far too many men are confused about what rape is and the use of ‘sex’ when we mean rape contributes to that confusion and has real life consequences for women (oh I didn’t rape her, I just had sex with her).
               

              Having sex with a woman while she is asleep (without her prior consent) is rape. When Pilger calls the allegations ‘sex’ allegations he diminishes the seriousness of rape and contributes to the culture that says that women don’t have sovereignty rights over their bodies, and that some rape isn’t real rape (and he gets to decide), it’s just some women being overly sensitive or being used for political purposes. He trivialises all the work that women have done to get rape taken seriously. That a man on the left of his standing does this is unconscionable. You can look up the story of Michael Moore’s foot in mouth re Assange if you want to understand this dynamic better.

               
              Like I said at the start of this debate, having men on the left trivialise what is important to women for their own political agendas is old and tedious, and leftist men really should have gotten the point by now. All Pilger had to do was acknowledge that the allegations are of rape, not sex, and then make his argument. The fact that he didn’t suggests that he either is very ignorant about rape culture (entirely possible), or that he believes that having sex with someone while they are asleep without their prior consent is not rape, which makes him a rape apologist.
               
              Tell me though, what do you consider the key points to be?
               
               

              So far as the culture you refer, the only way people can understand such topics, is to have seen the damage done to people first hand by rape.
               

              Well that leaves us a real dilemma then doesn’t it. How many women are going to talk about their experiences of rape in a culture that considers most of them liars and where rape is called sex?
               

              • muzza …
                26 August 2012 at 10:52 am

                The real issue is Wiki Leaks, not Assange, not the charges of rape etc.

                See what happens when there is a “fighurehead”, its easy to cut off!

                Meanwhile the serious talk about WTF is going on in the world on a serious level, is not on the table, just the circus.

                Note: I am ONLY talking about distractions of smoke & mirros yet again, and have no comment on other charges, because there is too much noise around the whole case, which is why I prefer to watch the ball!

                • weka …
                  26 August 2012 at 11:50 am

                  “The real issue is Wiki Leaks, not Assange, not the charges of rape etc.”
                   
                  The real issues are wiki leaks AND rape culture. When people on the left say there is only one REAL issue (wikileaks) they’re yet again marginalising issues important to women. There is no reason why both issues can’t be on the table (and they are both part of the same problems within our kind of society)
                   
                  It’s pretty obvious that the ‘wikileaks trumps rape culture’ argument comes from very deeply entrenched attitudes about rape and the discomfit that many people feel when asked to address rape in real terms. It’s not about Assange, it’s about the fact the the Shining Hero can be a rapist, and as demonstrated in js’ link, nice men do rape. That, understandably, makes many people on the left nervous.

                  • muzza …
                    26 August 2012 at 7:23 pm

                    When people on the left say there is only one REAL issue (wikileaks) they’re yet again marginalising issues important to women. There is no reason why both issues can’t be on the table (and they are both part of the same problems within our kind of society)

                    Are you speaking in generalist terms or is your response aimed at mine directly?

                    In case it was at me…
                    Why assume I am on any side at all Weka? I certainly did not say both issues can’t be on the table, only that I preferred to not follow the circus. The whole WL saga is a circus, and I mean all of it, not just the recent goings on!

                    It’s pretty obvious that the ‘wikileaks trumps rape culture’ argument comes from very deeply entrenched attitudes about rape and the discomfit that many people feel when asked to address rape in real terms. It’s not about Assange, it’s about the fact the the Shining Hero can be a rapist, and as demonstrated in js’ link, nice men do rape. That, understandably, makes many people on the left nervous.

                    He’s no shining hero to me Weka, for the record, and that was long before the circus really got cranked up!

                    Whatever your issues are with “rape culture” (whatever that is, as ive never heard the term used before), and you obviously have a very strong position, always try to remain objective. One can never tell what anothers life experiences are eh..

                    • weka …
                      27 August 2012 at 12:21 pm

                      In case it was at me…
                      Why assume I am on any side at all Weka? I certainly did not say both issues can’t be on the table, only that I preferred to not follow the circus.
                       

                      Muzza, here is what you said:
                       
                      “The real issue is Wiki Leaks, not Assange, not the charges of rape etc.”
                       
                      Sounds to me like you have taken ‘a side’.
                       
                      “Whatever your issues are with “rape culture” (whatever that is, as ive never heard the term used before)”
                       
                      So if I started in on any topic on TS without knowing what the subject is, what do you think would happen?
                       
                      In case you are interested, google ‘rape culture’, find some reliable sources, and see for yourself.
                       

              • just saying …
                26 August 2012 at 11:18 am

                http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/laurie-penny-its-nice-to-think-that-only-evil-men-are-rapists–that-its-only-pantomime-villains-with-knives-in-alleyways-but-the-reality-is-different-8079403.html

                Laurie Penny talks about her own experience of rape to explain why the backlash against rape culture isn’t about Julian Assange. She concludes:

                But this week brought it all up again. I’m definitely not the only one who has been revisiting those scenes in my head, playing them over like CCTV footage. I’m probably not the only one, either, who went quietly back to a few friends from the old days to talk about what happened. And what one of those former friends told me was: I wish I’d taken you more seriously, because I think it happened to somebody else.

                This isn’t about Julian Assange any more. It’s becoming an excuse to wrench the definition of rape back to a time when consent was unimportant, just when some of us had begun to speak up, and it’s happening right now, and what’s worse, what’s so, so much worse, is that it’s happening in the name of truth and justice, in the name of freedom of speech.

                If those principles are to mean anything, this vitriol, this rape-redefining in the name of conscience and whistleblowing and WikiLeaks and Julian Assange – it has to stop. Non-consensual sex is rape, real rape, and good guys do it too, all the time. Sorry if that hurts to hear, but you’ve heard it now, and there are things that hurt much more, and for longer, and for lifetimes. Those things need to stop.

            • Professor Longhair 23.2.1.1.1.2
              27 August 2012 at 11:04 am

              Weka, I just don’t get side-tracked by the distractions, like how words are used interchangeably, because as you can see, it allows for the key points to become blurred in symantics.

              That is weka’s intention.

    • Vicky32 23.3
      26 August 2012 at 7:11 pm

      found that Assange and WikiLeaks had committed no crime

      Thanks for that, RedLogix!

  24. prism 24
    25 August 2012 at 9:08 pm

    lprent
    Without me doing anything different I have columns again and a comment window with a right hand margin. Nice. Thanks for what you did.

  25. Draco T Bastard 25
    25 August 2012 at 11:07 pm

    Free online speed reading and training. Gives basic information and then has a simple script that allows you to practice.

  26. DH 26
    26 August 2012 at 11:23 am

    Further to our recent discussion here on rail, the right are once again showing how unbalanced they are on the subject;

    “No room for romance on rail”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10829426

    It’s the same tired old theme; roads don’t make a profit yet rail must. Road & rail are both part of the national transportation network but rail for some reason has to make a corporate sized buck while roads can hoover up $billions year in year out. It’s irritating to say the least.

  27. captain hook 27
    26 August 2012 at 3:58 pm

    well if we all own rail then there is no chance for the money jerks to ramp and churn and take their unearned profits for their own personal and private gain..
    plus there would be more jobs but national loves uncertainty and keeping people on their toes just for the fun of watching workers squirm.
    q.e.d.