Open mike 27/03/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 27th, 2022 - 191 comments
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191 comments on “Open mike 27/03/2022 ”

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  1. Dennis Frank 1
    27 March 2022 at 6:40 am

    Labour's deputy leader Kelvin Davis has proven that he isn't just a pretty face – he's identified an entire social ecosystem of grizzlers.

    Hundreds of critics have voiced their concerns over the Government's plan to overhaul how embattled children's agency Oranga Tamariki is monitored.

    Detractors include survivors of abuse in state care, the Children's Commissioner and Amnesty International. But the Children's Minister says they're just having a grizzle.

    Retired police officer Chris Graveson has spent his life fighting for children's rights and safety. He knows the law and how it's failing those who should be protected.
    Graveson is appalled by a proposed Bill designed to improve oversight of Oranga Tamariki. "I'd describe it as probably the worst legislation I've read in any jurisdiction anywhere," Graveson says.

    The bill intends to increase the monitoring of the children's agency and would do this by removing the investigative powers of the Children's Commissioner and replacing them with a government monitoring agency that sits in the Education Review Office. It would also give more powers to the Ombudsman.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/03/hundreds-of-critics-voice-concerns-over-government-s-plan-to-overhaul-oranga-tamariki-monitoring.html

    Hundreds of children's rights advocates united against Labour is a terrific achievement, of which the minister is rightly proud. National need all the help they can get, so providing them with a golden opportunity to front as the caring alternative to Labour is efficient usage of the minister's laser-like intelligence. Gotta keep that left/right collusion going!

    State care survivors, Amnesty International, the Human Rights Commission, Save the Children, the Children's Commissioner and Graveson all hate it. And all of those groups have made submissions.

    "We are concerned this Bill has a significant impact on the role of the Children's Commissioner and effectively disestablishes this role as well as powers to directly report to the Prime Minister," says child rights advocacy and research director at Save the Children NZ Jacqui Southey.

    "I certainly think the submitters are very credible," Sepuloni says. But her colleague, the Children's Minister and third-highest ranked Cabinet minister Kelvin Davis, reckons those credible submitters are simply grizzlers – saying so in an interview on Radio Waatea last month.

    He needs to carefully explain to her that credibility doesn't matter. The important thing is that Labour is solving problems created by one bunch of faceless unaccountable bureaucrats by making another bunch of faceless unaccountable bureaucrats nominal supervisors of the first lot. Faith in bureaucracy is all you need.

    • Blade 1.1
      27 March 2022 at 8:36 am

      Labour loves diversity, and Kelvin is a shining example of that. But what can you do when Kelvin and Nanaia and Poto and Willy and the Maori caucus are gateways to a large block of Labour support?

      That said, such a move by Labour shouldn't come as a surprise. Labour are being true to their inner predilections – control and centralise. Bring all things back under control of the hive.

      National should take note of Labours honesty and stop allowing ACT to show the way on how issues on the Right of politics should be handled.

      In the meantime, a brandy and a good cigar are in order. It's the little things in life that bring much pleasure. Thanks, Kelvin.

      • Blazer 1.1.1
        27 March 2022 at 8:40 am

        Where are your Maori roots ?surprise

        The Natz agenda is control and privatise….enrich the few at the expense of the…many.

        • Blade 1.1.1.1
          27 March 2022 at 9:38 am

          Where are your Maori roots ?

          You colonial agitator. You think all Maori think alike. Paternalism at it's worst.

          The Right pick up more balanced and educated Maori. Maori who have a worldview, having learnt from other countries with similar issues.

          They note indigenous people from other nations look to NZ as an example of where they would like to be in their own country. They realise that doesn't mean all is well in NZ… but it's well advanced of other nations in terms of historical redress.

          Maori on the right also realise not all of their brethren have concerns for their fellow Maori. They realise these ''gravy train riders'' and their white enablers have to be stopped if this country is to move forward and not regress to the stone age as the left is leading us to with their policy of 'give the natives what they want,' no matter how ridiculous it is. That will keep them happy and alleviate our white liberal guilt.

          ''The Natz agenda is control and privatise….enrich the few at the expense of the…many.''

          That's what everyone on this blog keeps telling me. Are you sure you aren't mixing Labour up with National…the control part that is?

          • Patricia Bremner 1.1.1.1.1
            27 March 2022 at 10:11 am

            Blade, "The Right pick up the more balanced educated Maori."

            Oh so they are acceptable if, " they think and act as you do? Want what you do?"

            Anything else is "going back to the stone age"

            That is a very class conscience view of the world.

            When the wealthy invent a system that maginalizes and blames in the same breath, communities co-operate to help themselves and the government assists them to reach their goals, that is not stone age thinking however much you label it so.

            You seem to be saying 1% owning 99% of everything is ok? Especially if you and wealthy educated Maori have that privilege and the rest of us keep our place.

            • Blade 1.1.1.1.1.1
              27 March 2022 at 10:28 am

              'Oh so they are acceptable if, " they think and act as you do? Want what you do?"

              Of course that was generalisation. I was just pointing out a demographic. I'm not into this class thing that seems so rampant on the lower side of the Left, and admittedly, in the higher echelons of the Right.

              ''Anything else is "going back to the stone age.''

              Please don't be disingenuous and take things out of context.

              ''That is a very class conscience view of the world.''

              That could be perceived as such. That wasn't my intention.

              ''When the wealthy invent a system that maginalizes and blames in the same breath, communities co-operate to help themselves and the government assists them to reach their goals, that is not stone age thinking however much you label it so.''

              What can I say? That's your opinion. I think differently.

              • Incognito …
                27 March 2022 at 11:26 am

                Are we “regress[ing] to the stone age” or to “circa 1950s”, as you alleged 2 days ago?

                Who’s being out of context and disingenuous?

                • Blade …
                  27 March 2022 at 5:15 pm

                  ''Are we “regress[ing] to the stone age” or to “circa 1950s”, as you alleged 2 days ago?''

                  Let's mix things up and you can take your choice. If I remember correctly, the comment about circa 1950s, was how, in my opinion Pakeha are nowadays being treated like Maori in the 1950s – with distain.

                  Right then, a list. Yes we are:

                  When rahui MAY become a local council policy, or at least supported.

                  When anything important that is opened usually has a Maori blessing.

                  When some state school classrooms I HAVE VISITED are no different to a kura classroom…meanwhile school standards go South.

                  When the first thing you learn in some Polytech courses or hospital jobs is the ''The Treaty Of Waitangi.'' I believe this also applies to government departments, but I have no first hand knowledge of that. I do know all hospital ID's in two hospitals I know of have Maori proverbs on the back ( as of 2019) of said IDs. Why?

                  When roadworks is diverted because of a Taniwha.

                  When iron sand removal to another area is objected to because it's not considered local.

                  When MY offer of Totara seedlings was declined because my tree wasn't in the immediate area, but was in the same rohe.

                  When Maori knowledge is considered the equal of Western Science.

                  When Koha is expected for Maori at public meetings either within a marae setting or out.

                  When healthy exotic trees are removed because they aren't native.

                  When a mental health team had to sing waiata and have whare karakia before starting their shift( I witnessed this first hand). This was a public hospital. Taxpayer money being wasted.

                  When a school imposes the Maori custom of removing shoes before entering a room. In this case, a classroom. No matter the waste of time while kids put on and remove their shoes. And the mess. I know this first hand.

                  When Pakeha and even Maori are screamed at on the Marae because they have broken kawa. It's so bad now ( in some places) that I recently helped carry out a survey on why some Maori didn't attend their marae. That was the main reason.

                  I could carry on. This is mostly regressive stuff that has no place in public life in 2022. I follow certain Maori kaupapa, but I would never dream of demanding others do likewise. I also wouldn't insist on doing things the old way only because it would be considered culturally correct.

                  • RedLogix …
                    27 March 2022 at 5:24 pm

                    Back in the 80's I spent more time on a number of marae than probably 95% of all other commenters here combined. The reason why isn't important and I rarely mention it – although I did learn a great deal about that world and some important things about myself along the way.

                    But what I can assure you is that the kaumatua I had the privilege of meeting and getting to know would never condone the things you list above. There always were a segment of separatists who wanted to tear the country apart for their own purposes – but most understood at some level that the only sane future for NZ was to find a path that organically entwinned the best of both cultures.

                    • Blade …
                      27 March 2022 at 5:57 pm

                      ''But most understood at some level that the only sane future for NZ was to find a path that organically entwinned the best of both cultures.''

                      I agree 100%. All I'm doing is trying to balance the books with people who think because Maori have been wronged in the past, everything involving Maori is now beyond reproach, when patently that isn't the case. Maoridom has some serious failings that are being white washed.

                      The way I see it, most Pakeha have realised times have moved on. It won't be business as usual with all things in their favour. Maori now have a voice and must be acknowledged across the board.

                      However, I don't see Maoridom coming to the table. Education, child abuse, a work ethic, are too often hold backs for Maori. Maori know this but rather then do some hard work to overcome problems, they are demanding funding to do things their way to make things right. That doesn't always work.

                      Once Maori get their act together, race relations in NZ will improve out of sight.

                    • Incognito []
                      27 March 2022 at 7:57 pm

                      Once Maori get their act together, race relations in NZ will improve out of sight.

                      Interesting comment since race relations in NZ are clearly not only about Māori.

                      You seem to be fond of strawmen; can you only talk in extremes and absolutisms or do you have room for context and nuance?

                    • RedLogix …
                      27 March 2022 at 6:05 pm

                      What most people don't see from the inside of NZ is that every culture has already influenced each other a lot more over the past century or so than we think. In reality we are not just that separate, and people who insist on focusing on nothing but the differences are doing everyone a disservice.

                    • Blade …
                      27 March 2022 at 10:35 pm

                      ” Interesting comment since race relations in NZ are clearly not only about Māori.”

                      If you read my comment above you would have seen I believe European are already pulling their weight when it comes to improving race relations.

                      ”You seem to be fond of strawmen; can you only talk in extremes and absolutisms or do you have room for context and nuance?”

                      The examples I gave are not extremes. In fact, I could have given you many more but it would put this site at risk. Things look different when it’s laid out like I did.

                      Europeans are being told in no uncertain terms about their failings as a race. What’s wrong with holding Maori to account…without making excuses for them?

                    • Incognito []
                      28 March 2022 at 8:00 am

                      When you stick labels on people they’ll either wear them as a badge of honour, as a shield to defend themselves, or as armour to attack with. That’s a primary failure in race relations and conversations and you’re a prime example of that, in my opinion. Your predictions of regression to imaginary bygone times and pending doom give it away, as do your comments in their tone & substance. In other words, I don’t think you’re helping to improve anything at all here in Aotearoa-New Zealand.

          • Hongi Ika 1.1.1.1.2
            27 March 2022 at 11:22 am

            Seymour Guns is nothing more than a shit stirring little Ngapuhi like his cousin Winston Peters ?

            • Shanreagh 1.1.1.1.2.1
              27 March 2022 at 4:02 pm

              That's very naughty of you to use words like that about Ngapuhi. My laid back former husband, in the only display of real temper I had seen, leapt across a room to confront someone he had overheard saying 'Ngapuhi shit'. They probably thought they were OK in a bunch of Pakeha until standing face to face with a blue eyed, blond haired person who whakapapa's' back to Ngapuhi around Waitangi.

              But interesting though…are you saying that Seymour has Maori ancestry?

          • Hongi Ika 1.1.1.1.3
            27 March 2022 at 2:47 pm

            Seymour is your a typical white colonial Auckland Grammar Boy with his head so far up his arse he can not see the light of day imho.

    • Incognito 1.2
      27 March 2022 at 10:45 am

      That is terrible ‘hit piece’ with a poor transcript to boot. You fell for it hook, line & sinker and even missed your own clue! I thought your innate scepticism and critical thinking skills would be up to the easy challenge, but you ostensibly failed at this rather low bar of poor political reporting.

      • Dennis Frank 1.2.1
        27 March 2022 at 11:04 am

        smiley gosh, I wonder if this is indeed so – will have to wait & see if anyone proves capable of identifying a flaw in my reasoning

        • Incognito 1.2.1.1
          27 March 2022 at 11:11 am

          Your flaw is that you took the piece a face value and decided it was worthy of an extensive copy & pasta with some fluffy meaningless ‘commentary’ from you that could have come from the Leaders of ACT or National. The sad thing is that your idiosyncratic stubbornness prevents you from having another fresh and this time critical look at that piece and reconsider your response. It also appears that you know very little about what’s going on with OT at the moment.

          • Dennis Frank 1.2.1.1.1
            27 March 2022 at 11:45 am

            The issue seems to be political: the minister is being divisive. His othering of grizzelers seems designed to deny their validity as stakeholders. The reporter did right to report his othering by stating the facts. The public interest lies in whether Labour is being authentic in claiming to be inclusive. The minister has provided valid evidence to the contrary. It's elementary that consensus politics works via inclusion of stakeholders…

            • Incognito 1.2.1.1.1.1
              27 March 2022 at 11:49 am

              I think you missed this from the clip and from the [poor] transcript:

              "I think when people are talking about issues outside of the scope of the Bill it's personally [sic] fine to disagree with them," […] Davis says

              • Dennis Frank …
                27 March 2022 at 12:13 pm

                That's a valid point. So he thinks the hefty consensus of stakeholders who seem to feel the bill isn't likely to solve the problems are being too holistic?

                Yet if the bill is only intended to solve some of the related problems it must be poorly designed & he ought to take partial responsibility for that, eh?

                Anyway, time will tell – best to leave it for better-informed folk to engage with for now…

                • Incognito …
                  27 March 2022 at 2:10 pm

                  I take it from your comment that you have not read the Bill, all 445 pages. I wonder if that political reporter had.

                  • Dennis Frank …
                    27 March 2022 at 2:26 pm

                    Not only have I not read it, I've never read any other piece of govt legislation in its entirety either – as far as I can recall. That's due to my bias against legalese.

                    So I rely on media reports to convey essential reports of such in everyday language. In this respect I'm a typical citizen of Aotearoa, of course! But your wondering about the reporter is worth sharing. One would expect professional journalist standards to apply – but I have a sneaking suspicion they may no longer do so.

                    Not that journalistic bias is anything new, of course. So I guess we all rely on a process of crowd-sourced correction to lead us to reliable information (rather than down the garden path).

                    • Incognito …
                      27 March 2022 at 3:02 pm

                      Indeed, I’ve never managed either to read through a complete piece of NZ legislation.

                      However, it can be quite informative to look up bits & pieces, which is made easier by online searching and searchable documents.

                      I looked up the Bill as shown in the Newshub clip & piece to which you linked. It only (!) has 98 pages, not 445!?

                      https://legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2021/0094/latest/096be8ed81b651d4.pdf

                      There are 379 documents submitted, which is not necessarily 379 submissions as such; 32 are supplements.

                      https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/bills-and-laws/bills-proposed-laws/document/BILL_116701/tab/submissionsandadvice

                      Like you, I’ve read a few MSM pieces on this, but it is hard to keep up with so many other things going on at the same time. The point is that Newshub piece was poor and unbalanced reporting (although the clip was slightly better), which is why I labelled it a ‘hit piece’, which it is, quite frankly, in my opinion.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      27 March 2022 at 3:30 pm

                      poor and unbalanced reporting

                      Didn't strike me as such. Seemed to be reporting the widespread feeling amongst stakeholders that the bill isn't suitable.

                      However it's possible that other stakeholders deem the bill suitable and their views were omitted. Let's wait to see how the thing goes down. If supporters declare their disagreement with critics in the media we'll know that stakeholders are split. Time will eventually tell as to which group are right – or it could eventuate that the legislation is effective in some respects but not others (as usual).

                    • Incognito []
                      27 March 2022 at 3:51 pm

                      Didn’t strike me as such.

                      That was obvious. You did a copy & pasta with no hesitation and no analysis, i.e. an early morning dump and regurgitation of stuff you’ve found online.

                      Seemed to be reporting the widespread feeling amongst stakeholders that the bill isn’t suitable.

                      They all “hate” it, allegedly.

                      If supporters declare their disagreement with critics in the media we’ll know that stakeholders are split.

                      Split between what? Between each other? The Bill is before the Select Committee, which means it requires constructive feedback and collaborative work.

                      Time will eventually tell as to which group are right …

                      Right, wrong, they’re simplistic binaries.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      27 March 2022 at 4:16 pm

                      "To be honest I don't know what the concerns are" said the minister. This puzzles me. It was the basis for his reference to grizzles, apparently. Do you believe he ought to be informed about the submissions to the select committee?

                      If so, any idea why he isn't? Some Labour staffer not doing their job properly? I'm open to the possibility that the report was unreasonable, but still can't see why you think so…

                    • Incognito []
                      27 March 2022 at 7:50 pm

                      It shouldn’t puzzle you if you had gone to the actual interview with Davis and listened to what he’d actually said:

                      “Instead of having a commissioner we’re having a commission. There’s more people which means there are more people to look and evaluate what Oranga Tamarki is doing so it’s actually about strengthening the system. To be honest I don’t know what the concerns are. I think it’s just another thing to grizzle about,” he says.

                      https://waateanews.com/2022/02/24/childrens-commission-grizzles-fail-to-sway-davis/

                      The Newshub piece clearly portrayed it as if Davis had dismissed all submitters on very broad grounds and out of hand. This was highly misleading.

                      I don’t know how much detail Ministers should know about submissions to the SC and isn’t that the job of the SC? In any case, Carmel Sepuloni is the MP in charge of the Bill.

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      27 March 2022 at 8:19 pm

                      Thanks for that in-depth clarification – you've been quite a sleuth! I can see the situation from your pov clearly now and it seems entirely reasonable. I agree the picture painted by the reporter is a bit of a beat-up. Perhaps not deliberately misleading but due to an insufficient grasp of the process I suspect… yes

                    • Incognito []
                      27 March 2022 at 9:45 pm

                      You’re most welcome and thanks for taking it in the spirit of good debate.

              • Shanreagh …
                27 March 2022 at 3:33 pm

                Yes indeedy….report spends lots of words about all the 'shock, horror' people who disagree and fails to cue in Kelvin Davis for the reasons for his trenchant criticism of the grizzlers. I got to the end and was saying to myself 'and'…'and' with a flap of the hands as once again a journo missed the actual deep point of the issue.

                They seem to be quite content with reporting that 'so and so' and 'such and such' disagree with the Govt or a Minister, end of story. Or that a Minister or Labour MP says this, but fail to find out the point behind what the person is saying.

                • Shanreagh …
                  27 March 2022 at 3:44 pm

                  As a former PS used to preparing drafts, analysing submissions, advising Ministers, Parliamentary Counsel, it used to be a rough rule of thumb when getting legislation ready for the House that if there were equal numbers of submitters for and against the draft legislation that the legislation was basically OK. If the usual fors and againsts lined up on their usual sides then that was good too.

                  Of course we went through every submission to find the mistakes, better ideas than we had, and unforeseen errors so that the legislation was as good as it good be and worked as well as it could. Doing this we accepted that we were not the only source of good ideas.

                  So I've read and prepared a few bits of legislation and look forward to reading the link to the subs Incognito.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    27 March 2022 at 3:51 pm

                    For people interested in this Bill the submissions are excellent, the ones I have read so far. I like how technology has enabled us to read the submissions so easily.

                  • Incognito …
                    27 March 2022 at 3:55 pm

                    Maybe you could comment here on what you’ve found, in due course.

    • Foreign waka 1.3
      27 March 2022 at 11:09 am

      This is how you fudge statistics, just move the responsibility somewhere else, wipe the record and keep for blaming sessions. Everything after that are teething issues that need more money thrown at. Boy o boy, how often has this method to make the rounds before anybody cottons on.
      These numbers are compared on the international scale and of cause reviewed at the …oh yes… United Nations level. Funny that.

  2. Dennis Frank 2
    27 March 2022 at 6:48 am

    More global warming evidence:

    An ice shelf the size of New York City has collapsed in East Antarctica, an area long thought to be stable and not hit much by climate change, concerned scientists said Friday. The collapse, captured by satellite images, marked the first time in human history that the frigid region had an ice shelf collapse.

    It happened at the beginning of a freakish warm spell last week when temperatures soared more than 70 degrees (40 Celsius) warmer than normal in some spots of East Antarctica. Satellite photos show the area had been shrinking rapidly the last couple of years, and now scientists say they wonder if they have been overestimating East Antarctica’s stability and resistance to global warming that has been melting ice rapidly on the smaller western side and the vulnerable peninsula.

    The ice shelf, about 460 square miles wide (1200 square kilometers) holding in the Conger and Glenzer glaciers from the warmer water, collapsed between March 14 and 16, said ice scientist Catherine Walker of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. She said scientists have never seen this happen in this part of the continent

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/east-antarctica-ice-shelf-collapse_n_623e016fe4b030e7392efbb2

  3. Bearded Git 3
    27 March 2022 at 8:39 am

    Australia now has the 22nd most cases reported in the world at 4.2m.

    Cases in Oz dropped to 22k a day but now are back up to 52k a day since they dropped restrictions. NZ has all this to come.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    • Patricia Bremner 3.1
      27 March 2022 at 10:25 am

      Australia has declared the Pandemic over. That means "You are on your own"

      New Zealand is cautiously moving forward and removing restrictions which are now redundant, but still keeping behaviours which slow spread and manage the illness. Unlike Australia where the Governments' "covid support is over".

      • Bearded Git 3.1.1
        27 March 2022 at 1:31 pm

        I hope you are right Patricia….but there are too many idiot business people and anti vax wankers in NZ to be confident our outcome will be much better than that of Oz.

    • Barfly 3.2
      27 March 2022 at 11:35 am

      England and Scotland are surging heavily as well – Thanks Boris….

      • Drowsy M. Kram 3.2.1
        27 March 2022 at 12:58 pm

        Many Kiwis beating 'freedum' drums; BG wrote @3: "NZ has all this to come."

        Avoidable, and so sad – human exceptionalism on display.

  4. Ad 4
    27 March 2022 at 8:45 am

    Otago mana whenua suspend their partnership with Dunedin City Council due to DCC's opposition to the 3 Waters legislation.

    'Mere window dressing': Council’s projects in disarray | Otago Daily Times Online News (odt.co.nz)

    Imagine what this would do to New Zealand's local government and to New Zealand's major infrastructure programme if this kind of thing caught on. Mana whenua are critical to such work occurring, due to their statutory roles.

    Local government only likes partnership with Maori when Maori are supplicant to their power, not when it's 50-50 as the 3 Waters legislation ensures.

    Tells us clearly the power shift at stake.

    • DB Brown 4.1
      27 March 2022 at 9:14 am

      Water is THE critical resource, no matter how many bombs oil tards throw about in their desperate bid to retain relevance.

      No one body should control the element that sustains all of life. To me, three waters safeguards us, somewhat, from the corrupt and greedy who could hold the country ransom for the stuff; or give it all to their mates, or skip corners and endanger public health.

      Water is a commons. The commons, heaven forbid, is for commoners.

      A power shift is well overdue. If they've treated iwi as window dressing (and that is the MO of many) they deserve egg on their face. Having Maori on your team for PR purposes only is cultural appropriation of sorts. Window dressing. Dishonest.

      The power brokers will whine forever. 'Their' precious.

      But it is everybody's resource.

      I'm much more interested in the management of water on land than in the office, but it's about to get a lot more interesting as reprehensible types use it for a football.

      • Ad 4.1.1
        27 March 2022 at 9:46 am

        Yes I get the John Key position you hold on water.

        Unfortunately we're not in a moment of neutrality about water. We are being sucked dry by the dairy industry, by Auckland, and by electricity generators – and our entire regulatory order has consistently failed us.

        It's not everybody's resource at all. Outside of national parks our water is completely commodified.

        • DB Brown 4.1.1.1
          27 March 2022 at 9:52 am

          John Key position?

          What are you talking about?

          I've spent a long time on this site describing and linking to water management strategies to enrich production, lands and aquifers.

          John Key? Really, WTF. It seems every time I try let water under the bridge and engage with you you start with the nonsense. So fuck you, you clown.

          You can hold this debate yourself you seem to know everything.

          • Incognito 4.1.1.1.1
            27 March 2022 at 11:32 am

            If you had managed to get over the first tiny sentence (3 little small words) in Ad’s comment and instead focused on the more substantial and relevant part we could have had a useful convo.

          • Ad 4.1.1.1.2
            27 March 2022 at 12:02 pm

            It was the early view of the John Key government that no-one owns water. What they own is the infrastructure that serves it.

            It wasn't a defensible position then and it isn't now.

            • Muttonbird 4.1.1.1.2.1
              27 March 2022 at 12:15 pm

              You failed to read DB's comment properly. Nowhere did DB say no-one owns water.

              Perhaps you genuinely missed the point, but this second comment suggest you invented in order to deliver an insult.

              Now is your opportunity to retract.

              • Ad …
                27 March 2022 at 12:20 pm

                "Water is a commons. The commons, heaven forbid, is for commoners."

                If it were really a commons we would not need a price regulator. But that is what is being brought in.

                Nor would we need volumetric allocation. Which is the war that has broken out in the Otago Regional Council.

                • Muttonbird …
                  27 March 2022 at 12:30 pm

                  Great. Now, how about apologising to DB.

                  • Ad …
                    27 March 2022 at 12:40 pm

                    Pointing out that the political position was stated by the leader of the National Party for 3 terms is exactly what was needed.

                    This is not a moment for naive commentary.

                    Three Waters is under full attack, and it is the most important long term political issue we have here.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      27 March 2022 at 12:52 pm

                      Ok, you misrepresented DB's comments and continue to do so, and refuse to retract.

                      From what I can see you are arguing the same position but, typically you barged in like a bull in a china shop not even taking the time to read what DB wrote.

                      Why so hard to say, sorry, I got it wrong?

                    • Dennis Frank …
                      27 March 2022 at 12:54 pm

                      naive commentary

                      It's what tends to happen if the commentariat aren't informed. The tragedy of the commons derives from private profit defeating the common interest in the minds of stakeholders.

                      I therefore agree that the common interest must be defended and preserved by regulating the behaviour of stakeholders.

                      It would help to clarify everyone's thinking around this if the govt were to spit the dummy & explain their intention for co-governance – but I accept tomorrow will be the start of the clarification process. Consensus in the caucus has to provide a realistic basis for it.

                    • aj …
                      27 March 2022 at 4:43 pm

                      Tim Cadogan is calm and sensible, unlike many others.

                      3 Waters reforms put the Serenity Prayer to the test

                      I have a few mantras that I try to live by, one being the Serenity Prayer: "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference”.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/southland-top-stories/128163262/3-waters-reforms-put-the-serenity-prayer-to-the-test

            • Poission 4.1.1.1.2.2
              27 March 2022 at 12:19 pm

              It was the early view of the John Key government that no-one owns water

              Whose delivery of water on a rotating planet,would be a neat scientific fact.Of course if you are arguing that the sun goes around the earth,well that would construe heresy,with all its accompanying problems.

              • RedLogix …
                27 March 2022 at 12:35 pm

                It is of course impossible to allocate ownership to specific water molecules, given how they constantly migrate throughout the water cycle.

                It would for example be utterly repugnant for an entity to charge rent for the water molecules that they 'own' but now comprise a large fraction of your body. In this sense no-one can ever own water.

                Yet in its bulk forms, fresh water lakes rivers and aquifers clearly have a value that can be tied to a physical entity, a geographic location and character. And increasingly we live in a world where it is a limited resources and must be allocated in some manner.

                I am not sure just handing them over to an unelected group of individuals based on race is however the smartest approach.

                • Dennis Frank …
                  27 March 2022 at 12:59 pm

                  Treaty rights implemented to preserve water resources in perpetuity is a good idea but when it comes to profiting therefrom, the devil's in the detail. If a tribe decides to sell some on the global market, everyone else would be irritated I expect. Justification would have to be on the basis of sustainability, to reduce hostility.

            • Hongi Ika 4.1.1.1.2.3
              27 March 2022 at 11:05 pm

              Was supported by the Crown I thinks ?

    • Belladonna 4.2
      27 March 2022 at 9:41 am

      Local government don't like partnership with Maori at all; they're required to work with them under legislative requirements.

      But. For those who are antsy about co-governance with 3 waters – this is not a good look. Maori are refusing to work with the Dunedin Council over regular (non-water related) matters – from cycleways to communities libraries – because the Council has a different opinion over 3 waters.
      This looks suspiciously like blackmail. And begs the question of how they would exercise their power within 3 waters.

      • Ad 4.2.1
        27 March 2022 at 9:49 am

        Agree on your last point and it feeds into the local government elections most likely.

        But I would put a cultural strike by Maori of this nature as a limited and targeted hit to local government leadership for them to demonstrate how real they actually take their Treaty and mana whenua partnerships.

        Local government need to show results for partnership with Maori. Not words.

        • Belladonna 4.2.1.1
          27 March 2022 at 10:11 am

          But it's not really a limited and targeted hit on local government leadership. This affects actual projects and developments needed by the people of Dunedin (as I said, cycle paths to community libraries).
          If it continues and actually disrupts delivery (as it has the potential to), you can bet your bottom dollar that Council will sheet home the blame to Iwi. And attitudes against co-governance will harden.

          With local government elections looming, this looks like a miscalculation by iwi (unless they have the guarantee from the Minister that 3 Waters will go ahead, hell or high water – which they may).

          • Ad 4.2.1.1.1
            27 March 2022 at 12:36 pm

            This was coming to the local government elections anyway.

            Dunedin's Mayor Hawkins just needs a bit of breathing space and a se-set of the mana whenua relationship.

            • McFlock 4.2.1.1.1.1
              27 March 2022 at 4:10 pm

              Hawkins is already on the mana whenua side: actively opposing 3waters would piss off Green Party head office, and that would hurt his future career prospects.

              Most of his councillors think 3waters is a bad idea for the city. The compensation price for the infrastructure seems to be one sticking point, from what I gather.

              • Poission …
                27 March 2022 at 4:18 pm

                Hawkins was found wanting during the potable water problem in east Otago'

                Mr Hawkins, in particular, should neither have deflected decisions on delayed notification to residents to Public Health South nor tried to sit among the crowd during the fiery Waikouaiti meeting last month.

                His place was on the stage, as the residents made plain.

                https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/lessons-waikouaiti-water

      • pat 4.2.2
        27 March 2022 at 10:10 am

        It highlights why more transparency around the workings of 'co governance' is required….i,e, the practicalities as opposed to aspiration.

        It reminds me of the Oranga Tamariki issue….(or that of Tuhoe administration of Te Urewa.)

        OT is obviously a failing model and it is entirely possible Maori administration odf a replacement would provide better outcomes for all concerned…..IF it was resourced to their desired level…at situation that would improve many situations irrespective of administration.

        The real question is what happens when these organisations are expected to deliver without sufficient resource….as is inevitable in aggregate.

        And that means democracy is more important than ever as the entire community has to decide what gets the resources and at what level.

        • Incognito 4.2.2.1
          27 March 2022 at 11:36 am

          You make good point, thanks, and they are being addressed and picked up.

          https://www.newsroom.co.nz/self-centred-oranga-tamariki-must-devolve-resources-to-community-report

        • Ad 4.2.2.2
          27 March 2022 at 12:04 pm

          To me it is more remarkable that there are so many deep and substantive partnerships with Maori already working.

          A wise Dunedin Council will have a full discussion with the iwi about what is going wrong and how it can be righted.

          For example the iwi partnerships with Auckland Council have delivered fairly substantial stuff.

          Same with Christchurch.

          Partnership with local government is on the whole working, useful, and it is deeply necessary.

          • pat 4.2.2.2.1
            27 March 2022 at 12:27 pm

            "To me it is more remarkable that there are so many deep and substantive partnerships with Maori already working."

            What Ive been hearing publicly expressed is the opposite….the 'partnerhips' are in name only and dont deliver 'co governance'.

            • Ad 4.2.2.2.1.1
              27 March 2022 at 12:34 pm

              Depends on the outcomes that the partnership has stated it will attain.

              Agree there is a great gulf between 'partnership' and 'co-governance' in practise.

              IMHO NZTA is the leading public sector exponent of substantial partnerships with iwi. Here's a little example:

              Ngati Tama got more out of the Mt Messenger consenting process than they did out of the whole of their Treaty of Waitangi claim. Those guys had little to fight with, but boy did they do well out of this one. More land, more respect, and several thousand acres of native bush to be trapped and protected from predators in perpetuity.

              And by the way big ups to the team at Pukearuhe Marae. Mighty.

          • Belladonna 4.2.2.2.2
            27 March 2022 at 12:31 pm

            I don't see any evidence that the partnership with iwi (Ngai Tahu) isn't working in Dunedin in all of the other areas.

            https://www.teaomaori.news/dunedin-councils-new-maori-boss-develop-treaty-partnership

            The only point of difference, cited in the article, was the Council's position on 3 waters (to be fair – there’s a pretty substantive divide between the positions, there). There aren't any 'we've had a long history of problems and this is the final straw' vibes in any of the reports that I've seen.

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/128136924/mana-whenua-leave-one-sided-relationship-with-dunedin-council

      • Hongi Ika 4.2.3
        27 March 2022 at 11:08 pm

        Well that is a lack of maturity by Local Iwi, and they need to sit down and negotiate.

    • Foreign waka 4.3
      27 March 2022 at 11:31 am

      The issue is that on one hand you have the main foreign currency income for NZ – farming – and on the other the depletion of water from the water table that is dropping by pumping the ground water for export – in plastic bottles no less, how environmental is that? Coupled with that are the water feed's from glaciers that are receding at increasing speed. Now, unless any of the so called "concerned" parties can prove – and by that I mean independently prove – that they are the best guardian and not having more bottle plants going up to the benefit of the few and the detriment of the whole country. I for one will not be in favor for a change that just changes the benefactor of the game – because that is what it has become for those far removed from the everyday world. This is the seriousness of that issue that has been left unaddressed for decades on all parties, interests. Once farming is no longer viable its better to move somewhere else as NZ will become rapidly a 3rd country nation and there wont be any taxpayer left to bleed dry either.

      Who allows this to happen under the Resource Management act? Since when does NZ have to curtail their essential life essence for corporate greed? Who is benefitting from this allocation?
      “There is no central register for water-bottling companies in New Zealand, which means the total volume of water they take is unknown.” You have to wonder whether there is deep seated corruption at play.
      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/govt-challenged-over-sending-water-offshore

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/78652406/the-bottledwater-giants-who-are-taking-our-water

      • Ad 4.3.1
        27 March 2022 at 12:05 pm

        agree

      • Blazer 4.3.2
        27 March 2022 at 12:29 pm

        What's complex about a 1-2c levy a Lt on all exports of bottled water.

        The company that is mentioned bottling it in NZ ,that also owns Fiji water ,pays a levy.The Fijian govt called their bluff.

        The dairy and wine arguments are red herrings.

        The levy could be used to maintain NZ's waterways to benefit the people that live here .

        • Ad 4.3.2.1
          27 March 2022 at 12:42 pm

          It needs to be a consistent charge.

          For example metering of all water in populations over 500 people.

          That way everyone contributes to their effects and their volumetric use.

          • McFlock 4.3.2.1.1
            27 March 2022 at 4:26 pm

            How does household water metering make everyone "contribute" to their volumetric use?

            • Poission 4.3.2.1.1.1
              27 March 2022 at 4:32 pm

              When Gladstone asked Faraday of what use was electricity?,Faraday replied one day you will be able to tax it.

            • Ad 4.3.2.1.1.2
              27 March 2022 at 4:47 pm

              Do you get a monthly water bill where you are?

              The Watercare ones have a fixed and volumetric charge component.

              Similar to a phone/internet/electricity bill.

              Once these governance arrangements are set in concrete, one of the first big moves will be that everyone in any settlement greater than (say) 500 people will get metered and have a monthly water bill.

              When Watercare were allowed to do this across Auckland, average water use went down and stayed down.

              • McFlock …
                27 March 2022 at 5:27 pm

                No. It's in the rates.

                And the flipside of user pays is the number of folks trying to keep a family and household clean on reduced flow. Couple that with reduced access to primary care for the same people, and we get kids admitted to hospital because of skin infections.

                Domestic water metering should be illegal.

                • Ad …
                  27 March 2022 at 6:43 pm

                  What evidence do you have that water metering caused anything like that?

                  • McFlock …
                    27 March 2022 at 9:15 pm

                    Not water metering, its cojoined twin of user pays. And caused by itself? Nah.

                    But one of the many socioeconomic factors associated with serious skin infections is a lack of access to hot water (p182).

                    I've also sat through several presentations on health factors in NZ, and yeah qualitative data includes comments from parents describing the effects of not paying a water bill and trying to run the family with throttled back flow rates.

                    User pays for water is plain wrong.

                    • weka …
                      27 March 2022 at 10:57 pm

                      I haven't read the whole thread, but is 3 Waters going to mean user pays for domestic water, or is that Ad's idea?

                      (agree it is plain wrong).

                    • McFlock …
                      27 March 2022 at 11:35 pm

                      Not necessarily, but it means local efforts against water metering will be fighting a nationwide organisation rather than a local authority they might have some control over.

                      And it's much easier to decide to charge based on the water already being metered than it is to install meters in the first place.

              • RedLogix …
                27 March 2022 at 5:35 pm

                I think I have mentioned this before, but around 90% of the cost of delivering water to the household is in fixed capital and operating costs.

                The marginal cost of the last m3 of water delivered is around 50cents or so last I looked (which is a while ago). Metering on a volumetric basis generates a market signal disconnected from reality.

                • Ad …
                  27 March 2022 at 6:46 pm

                  The fixed charge is always important. Granted. As it is for any utility.

                  But it's pretty easy to step up the cost per volume accordingly.

                  What I've observed is good strong debate between Watercare's finance team and Auckland council on a precise stepped level of tariffs.

                  The highest average costs go to the households with swimming pools.

              • Foreign waka …
                27 March 2022 at 6:08 pm

                Ad, the mega users and I mean mega as in exactly that, is farming, water bottling facilities and the smelter in the south island. But worse, the toxic waste from Tiwai is stored closed to beaches and rivers.

                Agriculture is a prime and increasing consumer of freshwater: it accounted for 62% of total water abstractions in 2010 (FAO, 2020). Between 2002 and 2017, there has been a near doubling of New Zealand's irrigated agricultural land area (OECD, 2020c).

                https://www.stats.govt.nz/indicators/consented-freshwater-takes

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/tiwai-point-smelter-stockpiles-100000-tonnes-of-hazardous-waste-near-bluff-beach/MUJ2HKZUN4RGH27OZFPRAFJGZU/

                https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/govt-welcomes-tiwai-clean-undertakings

                NZ exports 30 billion LT water. Irrigation is the biggest fresh water user in NZ.

                In NZ the average person uses 227 litres of water per day: Toilet = 86 litres per day. Bathing and hygiene = 68 litres per day. Laundry = 36 litres per day.

                We have 5 million or thereabout people and that calculates to 1135 million or 1.135 Billion liters.

                https://www.waternz.org.nz/Attachment?Action=Download&Attachment_id=2115

                You cannot really get a full picture unless you study each section to a minute detail. Maybe this is on purpose… hmmmm

                • Ad …
                  27 March 2022 at 6:33 pm

                  Fully agree.

                  We must be due for a full post on 3 Waters.

                  • Poission …
                    27 March 2022 at 6:44 pm

                    Its a 100 years tomorrow that the Manuherikia scheme was turned on as Coates said

                    was that the people of Dunedin had not taken a much more active part in securing irrigation for Central Otago than they had done." He paid a fitting tribute to those who had done their part in the development of the district, and there is unquestionably much yet to be done. In a large measure the prosperity of Dunedin is dependent on the efforts which are made in the country that lies behind the city, and Central Otago promises a great deal in this direction. Central Otago under irrigation promises great wealth. This fact will probably be more widely appreciated by the next generation, when the proofs of the wonderful productivity of the district are more patent to all.

                    https://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/100-years-ago/new-alexandra-post-office-ornament

                    Looking forward to your economic assessment of 100 years of Irrigation.

        • Hongi Ika 4.3.2.2
          27 March 2022 at 1:18 pm

          Not difficult to set up despite all the hand wringinng.

        • Foreign waka 4.3.2.3
          27 March 2022 at 1:45 pm

          It wont, sorry.

          No levy will not re-resource depleted water. Foreign companies don't really care about your or NZ predicament. They will get what they want until its done. Corporates do not have emotions, their commitment is to share holders. We have seen it with the billions paid from taxpayer but not returned under good faith.

          Water is somewhat finite in its availability within a timeframe.

          See it like that: your community get every day a jug of water. Someone is coming along and taking a large sip, another one is coming along and get a full cup, then the idea develops that you can make money with that and another one comes taking 2 cups. Your community needs the whole jug to survive as a living thing (97% of you is water). How long will you last?

          • pat 4.3.2.3.1
            27 March 2022 at 1:49 pm

            Indeed, levies are not a solution….unless they at a level prohibitive to the action.

            • Blazer 4.3.2.3.1.1
              27 March 2022 at 2:12 pm

              Levies may not be a solution to depletion of water,but they are a useful source of revenue all,the same…atm it's a free lunch for exporters.

              Where are taxes on their profits…paid?

              • Foreign waka …
                27 March 2022 at 2:48 pm

                I personally look at sustainability. Levies do nothing towards that. The cost will just be passed on to those people overseas who buy the bottled water and via farm gate milk solids and we still end up with a desert stretching around Alexandra. A levy is nothing else as a shortsighted greedy vehicle to make more money. Its application will do nothing to avoid salination of the water table and the planning for future diminishing of glacial water.

                You need to measure NZ population vs their water need first. Then farming and its allocation. I also feel that the RMA has to go as they have abused the very name of it. And if anything can be regarded as "surplus" you can charge per liter to those bottlers what ever you like. Take it or leave it. Believe me, this "resource" allows for taking that position.

            • Foreign waka 4.3.2.3.1.2
              27 March 2022 at 2:58 pm

              Hi Pat – Councils need to review their approval to applications. To just rubberstamp all and sundry to pander to their mates or power base would not pass mustard. But we have no insight why it is allowed to take water in such astronomical amounts. Maybe at this junction 3 Waters would be an opportunity to make things more transparent and change things. But would it be so? I personally won't hold my breath as I view politicians inherently as corruptible. In all the years I have watched them not one has proved me wrong on that point.

              • pat …
                27 March 2022 at 3:21 pm

                The major problem as I see it is the complete lack of ability to quantify what is available….you cannot successfully manage something you cannot (or will not) measure.

                Hence the precautionary principle should apply and we should have erred on the side of caution, unfortunately we have thrown caution to the wind.

                • Foreign waka …
                  27 March 2022 at 4:15 pm

                  I believe you will find some useful info here:

                  https://www.stats.govt.nz/methods/new-zealand-water-accounts-update-2020

                  This is a way of measuring underground aquifer:

                  A precise approach for the detection of buried nonmetallic objects is ground-penetrating radar (GPR). It should be importance of aquifer water increased these days after decreasing the freshwater. A precise approach for the detection of buried nonmetallic objects is ground penetrating radar (GPR).

                  • pat …
                    27 March 2022 at 6:06 pm

                    It is a start….and hasnt to date impacted allocations, that is the problem. The consents, which run for decades have been allocated blind. It is easy (or at least easier) to measure surface flows and calculate variable evaporation rates, but the subterranean flows are much more difficult (and probably more important)

                    As said the precautionary principle should have been applied , and wasnt.

                    • Foreign waka …
                      27 March 2022 at 6:15 pm

                      Against vested interests and maty culture. But it is now becoming increasingly clear that issues surface more frequently. Like riverbeds permanently drying out and making certain farming areas not viable anymore.

                      There was an article just recently in stuff. It is interesting reading and heads a warning for those who only see the annual balance sheet.

                      https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2022/03/manuherekia-river-more-or-less/

                    • pat …
                      27 March 2022 at 6:30 pm

                      "Against vested interests and maty culture."…true enough, but it is a culture that has had majority support for various reasons …not least of which is a perceived necessity.

                  • Poission …
                    27 March 2022 at 6:52 pm

                    Seismic reflection is another method.In South Canterbury the offshore aquifier is 2000km^2,and some of the water may be 12000 years old.

                    https://niwa.co.nz/news/large-freshwater-find-off-canterbury-coast

          • Hongi Ika 4.3.2.3.2
            27 March 2022 at 3:29 pm

            Corporates respond to $'s and production outcomes, they don't give a stuff about the Environment, the local people or anything else for that matter, just look at Comalco and the Bluff Aluminium Smelter and we the NZ Taxpayer subsidize their production costs with cheap energy.

        • Hongi Ika 4.3.2.4
          27 March 2022 at 11:11 pm

          Very simple to implement, plus a plastic levy of say $0.05 levy on each bottle like the EPA charge in the USA, should be a Green Policy. NZ very backward IMHO ?

      • Patricia Bremner 4.3.3
        27 March 2022 at 3:40 pm

        yesOh yes, the devil is in the detail, and probably why there are no lists Foreign Waka. I think they would make interesting reading and may contain some surprises. Similar to the donation list for Parties.

        • Foreign waka 4.3.3.1
          27 March 2022 at 4:19 pm

          Ah yes. We are looking for transparency. Well, so far no one has lifted any lids as far as I know.

          • Hongi Ika 4.3.3.1.1
            27 March 2022 at 11:12 pm

            Little transparency in NZ ?

            • Foreign waka 4.3.3.1.1.1
              28 March 2022 at 8:19 pm

              The amount of investigation a person has to undertake on the issue of all things water and its management is simply astounding. It looks though that you need some serious skills to dig and find out facts. Not propaganda, facts. Now, given that after the latest news on literacy has been published, it will be surprising if 20% of people in their voting age have some sound understanding of the issue. This is not meant to be offensive but rather making aware how obfuscated the information can be.

              Part of Transparency is having the means to access information and present it in such way that an average person can understand it. If any subject is being just shown in long running legal sentences than that point is not served. Democracy needs participation of as many people as possible. Ideally everybody who has a right to vote.

              On the topic:

              "According to Moez Chakchouk, UNESCO’s Assistant Director-General for Communication and Information, access to information “is an integral part of the right to freedom of expression” and “a key enabler towards inclusive knowledge societies.” Despite this, UNESCO says that many governments “do not have national legislation on access to information as a specific expression of the law,” otherwise known as freedom of information legislation. This means that millions of people do not have the right or the ability to access public information. Further, “Even when these laws exist they are not necessarily abided by,” adds Bushra, “there can be a lot of red tape to access information in a timely manner.”

              This lack of access is particularly worrying for researchers and activists, like Bushra. Without universal, open access to data from governments or research institutions, for example, developing effective solutions to global problems is difficult"

              https://creativecommons.org/2019/09/28/access-to-information-matters/

  5. Belladonna 5
    27 March 2022 at 9:27 am

    Seems as though Goff is off to London.

    Gather he was waiting for the final OK (though still not officially confirmed, the nod has been given) before announcing he won't stand for mayor.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/phil-goff-destined-for-london-after-auckland-mayoralty-ends/RY4QJ7EGDKB2GXSDVSUHM3RT3I/?c_id=1&objectid=12513602&ref=rss

    The whispers around town, were right on the money….

    • Blade 5.1
      27 March 2022 at 9:57 am

      The Triumph Rocket won't be much use on those London streets. Unfortunately the pillion seat is hopeless, otherwise he could have given Jacinda a ride out of town.

    • Hongi Ika 5.2
      27 March 2022 at 11:13 pm

      Another cushy number for the Professional Politician ?

  6. DB Brown 6
    27 March 2022 at 10:04 am

    This site's about as left wing as the eastern side of a north facing duck.

    And you know, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.

    Good luck 'debating' between yourselves all your sad white whinging opinions about Maoris and stuff. This place is a fucking tip.

    • Dennis Frank 6.1
      27 March 2022 at 10:16 am

      I've found that time out is the best tactical response to social media that becomes distasteful. Engagement here is robust at times but one can evolve ways to deal with that. Think of it as character-building.

      Re the left, there's an entire spectrum of ways contributors exhibit that. Your way is as valid as any. My way or the highway is unlikely to be an effective attitude to proceed with. Politics evolves through diverse views and anyone who participates has to get good at reframing in the discourse process. Hang in there! smiley

    • Byd0nz 6.2
      27 March 2022 at 10:22 am

      Don’t let Ad get up your nose, that’s his style, insults his specialty he drips venom if you challenge his opinion. Whatever gave you the notion this site is left wing. There are a very few, they know who they are and good luck to them for being bothered.

      [Sounds like a veiled attack on Ad:

      Don’t let Ad get up your nose, that’s his style, insults his specialty he drips venom if you challenge his opinion.

      Where did Ad insult or drip venom on DB Brown and who challenged whom in the above threads? It seems you have it back to front, so that you can also (!) have a go at Ad and I’d suggest you don’t and stop. This is your warning – Incognito]

      • Patricia Bremner 6.2.1
        27 March 2022 at 10:48 am

        smiley Yep That is correct BydOnz. We keep on keeping on trying, sometimes with success.

      • Hongi Ika 6.2.2
        27 March 2022 at 11:38 am

        Sometimes this site is more RW than Kiwiblog however on Kiwiblog you get censored very quickly for expressing LW opinions, despite been banned on here on few occasions myself over the years the Moderators here I feel are quite lenient.

      • Incognito 6.2.3
        27 March 2022 at 11:42 am

        Mod note

      • Barfly 6.2.4
        27 March 2022 at 12:08 pm

        To Incognito

        Likening someone to John Key can be seen as a great insult – I would probably get quite pissed off if I was told "the John Key position you hold on water." . I am quite sure that Ad is more than clever enough to know that it may well prompt a visceral reaction.

      • Muttonbird 6.2.5
        27 March 2022 at 12:08 pm

        Where did Ad insult or drip venom on DB Brown?

        – Incognito

        Here.

        Yes I get the John Key position you hold on water.

        – Ad

        Deliberately provocative. To describe someone from the socially responsible left as having a John Key position is about the worst insult deliverable.

        [You’re playing moderator again even though you were warned about this again twice only 10 days ago.

        In this OM, you continue to miss the point and to accept Ad’s explanation and reasoning. In any case, a (perceived or alleged) provocative statement, especially when true, is not the same as an insult. Instead of accepting that in robust debate sometimes little toes are stepped upon you are waging a side show against Ad, again.

        You also interfered in Moderation that was not about you, initially.

        Take a week off; next ban will double in length – Incognito]

      • Hongi Ika 6.2.6
        27 March 2022 at 11:14 pm

        Ad achieved his desired result he really pissed someone off ?

        [Unlike you, Ad contributes to and generates good debate with good topics, strong arguments, strong views, and many debating points. You don’t always have to agree – I don’t – but he’s a great conversation starter. You, on the other hand, dump & spray with BS slogans that are not even fit for bumper stickers and with your poorly bleeped out insults. So, why don’t you STFU before you really piss me off – Incognito]

    • Hongi Ika 6.3
      27 March 2022 at 11:29 am

      Problem for Local Councils is that local Iwi actually care about water quality.

    • Hongi Ika 6.4
      27 March 2022 at 11:33 am

      DB B sometimes this place gets infested with morons best not to argue with STUPID PEOPLE ?

  7. Adrian Thornton 7
    27 March 2022 at 10:39 am

    Yemen's Houthi rebels target oil facilities in Saudi Arabia…..

    • RedLogix 7.1
      27 March 2022 at 11:30 am

      I like these older Caspian Report clips like this one from 2015 – they often prove remarkably prescient.

    • aj 7.2
      27 March 2022 at 4:49 pm

      It's so like Syriana – the Wasim storyline.. Great movie.

      While playing soccer, they meet a charismatic Islamic fundamentalist, the same man who received the missing Tehran missile, who eventually leads them to execute a suicide attack on a Connex-Killen tanker using the missile.

  9. AB 9
    27 March 2022 at 11:21 am

    I experienced minor palpitations this morning as Fran O'Sullivan on Q&A suggested:

    • That the tax cuts proposed by Luxon were in some respects "deceptive"
    • That public transport should be government-subsidised and 100% free
    • That community gardens should be enabled as a way of by-passing supermarkets
    • That this is "a country of duopolies and sometimes monopolies" that should be "broken"

    Why the sudden truth-telling? Is she safeguarding her reputation – trying to distinguish herself from the partisan hacks (Hosking et al) who have become so deranged by the Covid response requiring an activist state, that they've gone down the rabbit hole?

    [Link required]

  10. aom 10
    27 March 2022 at 12:55 pm

    Do we really have to put up with uncritical stuff like this: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/464063/fight-against-russia-s-ukraine-war-is-a-new-battle-for-freedom-biden.

    It is not as if Biden and the US hasn't indulged in the same shit, not so long ago even – without any consequences.

    • Dennis Frank 10.1
      27 March 2022 at 1:09 pm

      Yes. RNZ is supposed to report statements on geopolitics by US presidents. It would be a breach of their charter not to do so I expect.

      Whether RNZ ought to criticise such statements is an interesting proposition that I haven't encountered before – but perhaps you didn't mean to imply that??

      In regard to his stance – fighting autocrats – I agree that he ought to act his age. Leave that to would-be rambos. As to whether the US is being inconsistent, given their long track record of supporting autocrats, you're on solid ground. It's almost as if Biden is exhibiting a moral compass, huh? surprise

    • Macro 10.2
      27 March 2022 at 1:54 pm

      So calling Biden a hypocrite is a sound argument for ceasing Putin's war in Ukraine in your opinion.

      🙄

      • aom 10.2.1
        27 March 2022 at 8:53 pm

        Sorry Macro but it seems you are obviously well meaning but either ill-informed or very monocular. NATO have had all the tools in their hands to have stopped this before it started – years ago! Instead, they made the choice to block meaningful negotiation and to sacrifice Ukrainian (and Russian) lives in the interests of the most malign empire in history. Even now, getting billions worth of arms into the country is more important than seeking a solution through meaningful negotiation.

        Biden is a hypocrite of the highest order and should be wearing at least the same degree of opprobrium as is being laid on the Russian head of state. To turn a blind eye to this is disingenuous.

        One also has to keep in mind that the final trigger was the recognition that there was a set of accords that were to protect the lives of those in Donbass and Luhansk. That was ignored by Ukraine who chose to inflict at least the same scale of destruction on the Donbass region and proportionally forced more people to refuge in Russia.

        • Adrian Thornton 10.2.1.1
          27 March 2022 at 11:14 pm

          @aom…Well stated +1

        • SPC 10.2.1.2
          28 March 2022 at 6:52 am

          in the interests of the most malign empire in history;

          Blog comment

          History is unending dialogue between present and past

          E H Carr, Historian

          the scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behaviour in a given context.

          Dictionary definition of psychology

    • Foreign waka 10.3
      27 March 2022 at 3:07 pm

      Lets not forget who is in charge – sarc

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveforbes/2022/03/25/biden-says-us-must-lead-new-world-order-what-america-needs-if-hes-serious/?sh=

      https://youtu.be/p_UY3YDnBlE

      I have talked to relatives in Europe. A lot of information does not even make it into mainstream in the anglo saxen world. Are we once more manipulated how we see the world like it was with Iran, Irak, Afghanistan? The lingo is the same.

    • aom 10.4
      27 March 2022 at 4:59 pm

      More grist to the mill.

      (https://original.antiwar.com/andrew-p-napolitano/2022/03/25/is-putin-a-war-criminal/)

      Andrew P. Napolitano, a former judge of the Superior Court of New Jersey, is the senior judicial analyst at Fox News Channel and anchor of FreedomWatch on Fox Business Network.

  11. Reality 11
    27 March 2022 at 1:22 pm

    Must admit it was a surprise to hear Fran O'Sullivan's comments on Q&A today. She actually had some independent ideas rather than parroting the National/Act press releases. And as for the "deceptive" comment about National's tax promises. High time in depth scrutiny was cast over what they propose. And "free public transport" for Luxon's "bottom feeders". Well, well!

  12. Reality 12
    27 March 2022 at 3:04 pm

    Barfly – could well be Fran O'Sullivan has to March to the beat of the Herald's drum. Rarely are there ever any independent or alternative opinion writers.

  13. Dennis Frank 13
    27 March 2022 at 3:15 pm

    Andrea Vance on the political commentariat:

    Mainstream political reporting thrives on conflict. Protesting in dramatic and disruptive ways captures attention. There is no incentive to break out of incivility, to recalibrate politics. To be nice.

    And there is a paradox. Any culture shift – whether it be ‘political correctness’ or Ardern’s bid to restore kindness to politics – has backfired. Attempts to police behaviour or avoid offensive or inflammatory language has further fuelled the nastiness: the snowflakes hating on the boomers. The Deplorables attacking The Woke.

    On it goes – the venting and ranting, no matter how irrational or hurtful in order to ensure a “healthy” debate and the maintenance of “free speech.”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/300550492/the-culture-of-nastiness-insults-have-replaced-arguments-in-political-debate

    So the PM's exhortation to be kind to one another a few years back was appropriate yet ineffectual. Online discourse fosters disputation, and human nature warps that into abuse. Behaviour can be regulated via incentive design – yet the profit motive of private business ownership of social media defeats the viability of regulation.

    Social darwinism therefore prevails. Looks like we get group psychodynamics online as our learning curve during this phase of history…

  14. adam 14
    27 March 2022 at 4:49 pm

    Remember when Peter Thiel brought citizenship off the last Tory government? Guess what that crazy mupppet has been up to now??!?

  15. Ad 15
    27 March 2022 at 5:04 pm

    Fingers crossed for The Power of the Dog at the Oscars tomorrow.

    (4) The Power of the Dog | Official Trailer | Netflix – YouTube

    12 nominations.

    Oamaru and the Maniototo never looked so good or so severe.

    The cinematography is at least as good as Illustrious Energy.

    It's on Netflix now if you haven't seen it yet. It's even better than the book.

  16. Joe90 16
    27 March 2022 at 5:05 pm

    Translation of an article on why Russian speaking Ukrainians sympathetic to Russia are shocked by Putin's invasion.

    In Russia, they are increasingly asking themselves why those people who were considered “pro-Russian” in Ukraine before the war do not support Putin’s “special operation”?

    Why such little support even in the already Russian-controlled territories of southeastern Ukraine?

    The answers to these questions are actually obvious.

    https://eventsinukraine.substack.com/p/why-there-is-little-support-for-russia

  17. Chris 17
    27 March 2022 at 5:46 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128117640/survivors-call-for-acc-to-fairly-cover-domestic-abuse-injuries-to-teeth-prompts-minister-to-order-official-probe

    When it comes to dental work it's not just a matter of claimants requiring dates of instances an injury may have occurred. Even if April Green had been able to provide the dates, she still would've had to show the decay was caused by the injuries. ACC would simply send her to their lackey medical puppets getting them to say the decay was caused by neglect and if she'd "only have cleaned her teeth she would've been fine". Even if she'd managed this hurdle – which would've been no mean feat given ACC's vast resources always engaged to block claims – the maximum payment for dentures is about $1500. The difficulty Carmel Sepuloni will have is that the ACC regime requires a complete overhaul, which is something her colleagues have made clear they're just not interested in.

    • Hongi Ika 17.1
      27 March 2022 at 11:27 pm

      ACC is one big milking machine for the employees, I tried to get a ACC Claim for a hernia 25 years ago, they refused because I had not been to a Doctor 10 years previously when I thought I may have done it lifting 40kg cases of Watermelons. So I had to pay $3.5k to get it done privately otherwise wait 3 x months on the Benefit b4 the Public Service could look at it. Caramel Sepuloni has big blood sucking organism which needs sorting out, she needs to pull the finger out of her r***** and get on with it b4 we have another 6-9 years of National/ACT.

  18. Ad 18
    27 March 2022 at 6:29 pm

    Shoutout to al those in Taranaki who took out the entire goat population in Egmont National Park.

    Goats successfully eradicated at Taranaki national park (1news.co.nz)

    Great work.

    Excellent challenge to other DoC National Park teams to do the same.

  19. joe90 19
    27 March 2022 at 7:05 pm

    'Murica has clocked a million Covid deaths.

  20. Ad 20
    27 March 2022 at 7:06 pm

    Fresh off uniting the leaders of free and open societies against the tyrannical Putin, Biden is ready to go after the oligarchs no matter where they live, no matter who they are.

    He is set to announce a proposal to impose higher taxes on the wealthiest Americans.

    It would be part of the 2023 budget proposal, expected to be released this week.

    The so-called "Billionaire Minimum Income Tax" proposal would impose a minimum tax of 20% on households worth more than $100 million (€91 million) and work toward cutting projected budget deficits by more than $1 trillion over the next decade, according to the document.

    "This minimum tax would make sure that the wealthiest Americans no longer pay a tax rate lower than teachers and firefighters," the document said.

    Who would pay more?

    Signifying a massive reorientation of the US tax code, the proposal would impact the top 0.01% of households. In this category, half of the expected revenue would come from households worth $1 billion or more.

    So all those Russian oligarchs who think he's singling them out, well, actually he's going to tax the American ones as well. Target: Trump family, the Kochs, all the Republican funders, the entire fucking filthy evil lake of them.

    Prepare for the next Republican shit storm.

    • Dennis Frank 20.1
      27 March 2022 at 7:15 pm

      So all those Hollywood & silicon valley zillionaires who have been funding Biden's party will issue press releases declaring their support?

      That'd be cool. I hope Biden has made sure all his pork-barrel democrats are on board with this proposal. Otherwise he's heading into some extremely bad pr.

      Putting these caveats aside, sounds terrific & testifies that his work with Bernie was well done, eh?

    • Foreign waka 20.2
      27 March 2022 at 7:37 pm

      What a fantastic public relations exercise. I can see the accountants sharpen their pencils for those 700 billionaires to make sure that deductibles reduce the income so that taxes as paid right now seem to be right. Let the cream me down job begin.

    • pat 20.3
      27 March 2022 at 7:47 pm

      How many loopholes?….the sad reality is that most tax reform comes with the prerequisite loopholes that enable the required evasion.

    • Adrian Thornton 20.4
      27 March 2022 at 11:39 pm

      "Fresh off uniting the leaders of free and open societies against the tyrannical Putin, Biden is ready to go after the oligarchs no matter where they live, no matter who they are". …are you actually inferring that any country that doesn't sign up to the US/NATO War Machine is not a 'Free and open' country?

      And further…do you really believe that Biden will get that 'Billionaire Minimum Income Tax' anywhere near passed..that bumbling old idiot couldn't even get the 73 million workers on minimum wage in the USA the increase that he ran his fucking whole presidential campaign on…..come on man..seriously you should really watch this…your guy plainfaced bullshitting his way to being POTUS…with a straight face, and don't go on about Joe Manchin etc…no one buys that line.

      • SPC 20.4.1
        28 March 2022 at 7:18 am

        He sent the bill to Congress – your feigned ignorance of their political gridlock is sad.

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