Open Mike 28/07/2017

65 comments on “Open Mike 28/07/2017 ”

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1. Mandy Hager 1

   28 July 2017 at 6:54 am

   I wrote a longform essay on the politics of the arts and education. Here’s the link if you’re interested. It is published in this month’s North and South magazine as one of the winner’s of the D’Arcy Writer’s Grant.

   https://mandyhager.com/2017/07/18/for-arts-sake-the-politics-of-arts-and-arts-education/

   Enjoy!
   • Morrissey 1.1

     28 July 2017 at 7:13 am

     Thanks very much! Brilliant!
     • JanM 1.1.1

       28 July 2017 at 9:18 am

       + 100%
   • Robert Guyton 1.2

     28 July 2017 at 7:22 am

     “I love Aristotle’s belief that to know oneself is the beginning of all wisdom . . . and that educating the mind without the heart is no education at all. I like to think he viewed ‘heart’ as the philosophical, spiritual and moral values that should drive us — compassion, generosity, kindness, fairness — and the need to gain command over our animal instincts: jealousy, hatred, anger, and the most corrosive of all: unrestrained greed. I see the arts[7] as integral to Aristotle’s world view. They provide the crucial expression of our personal and cultural values and our identity. Robert Hughes, the late Australian art critic, said the art he most liked dealt with the questions why am I here and what am I doing? I believe this is the question all artists, all people, must consider to find personal fulfilment.”

     Wonderful work, Mandy and on the button. I liked this passage especially. I’m not sure though, that jealousy, hatred, anger and unrestrained greed are animal instincts. They seem all too human to me. But yes, gaining control over those is the call.
   • Cinny 1.3

     28 July 2017 at 7:23 am

     Thanks Mandy, and well done you, will be sure to have a read, looks like a fascinating essay.
   • lprent 1.4

     28 July 2017 at 8:39 am

     It is a great essay Mandy. I particularly liked the linking to the intellectual suppressions in the middle ages of Europe.
   • Ad 1.5

     28 July 2017 at 8:43 am

     It’s a good read.

     I disagreed with lots of it. But it was substantive stuff to disagree with.

     – Comparing criticism of Mike Joy to the silencing of Abelard and the burning of his books – via Lenin, Pol Pot and Hitler – was pretty out there.

     – Reminding us that Socratic dialogue is superior, and then telling us it’s under threat due to a decline in teacher training, sounded pretty OLD. After all, the internet and the blogosphere has provided an explosion of democratised Socratic contest in ideas all over the joint. Maybe it’s teaching – an incredibly conservative profession – that needs to change, rather than expecting the dialogical world to revolve around them.

     – Fair enough to have a crack at John Key about folding in order to get The Hobbit. On the other hand, we sucked it up and have a tourism industry that competes quite well against the entire dairy industry, in no small part because of the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit deals.

     – Clutch your pearls at commercialisation as you might, most of the great works of art in the world over the past 2 millennia were commissioned directly by patrons, who were either oligarchs, royals, or Popes. It’s the nonvelists who have the real superiority crown over their heads. My advice to any artist or writer if you want to save enough to buy a house: figure out who your client is and work from there.

     – Why you think academics should not have their ideas contested hard is beyond me. Jane Kelsey plays a long game and was 100% vindicated at every point on the TPPA. I think she can live comfortably within that contest.

     – And the below is not a ringing endorsement for the art of Simon Denny:

     “I’d like to end with a plea to re-evaluate our core values; to use the riches of creative thinking, in all its varied and radical manifestations, to extract ourselves from this overarching economic mindset in search of something more equitable, sustainable and universally fulfilling. This is a plea to think with the heart, to shed the strictures of ideology and, instead, seek out our compassionate side for the betterment of all; to vote for the ‘politics of love’[75] and generosity, not divisiveness and hate. There is no need for winners and losers in the expression of our ‘humanness’; what we desperately need right now is a return to more creative, critical thinking that can transcend the mess and horrors manufactured by our animal greed.”

     Denny’s art is about as compassionate and lovely and generous as a fly’s eye. If you can figure out which side of politics Simon Denny is on, then you’ve probably figured out where all the hackers sit in liberating the world from whatever.

     – Finally, It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on how the skills-based pedagogy that we have had since the mid 1980s stacks with a Socratic contesting of ideas. One could make the case that we generate cohorts that prefer towards adaptability. Generalists are what this country need because our local economy is too narrow for too much specialistation. Just maybe Socrates – that 2,500 year old Greek –
     isn’t what we need. Just maybe we could teach the Greeks something – who knows?
     • Draco T Bastard 1.5.1

       28 July 2017 at 1:25 pm

       Clutch your pearls at commercialisation as you might, most of the great works of art in the world over the past 2 millennia were commissioned directly by patrons, who were either oligarchs, royals, or Popes.
       Who got the wealth to do so from the people.

       If we removed the people at the top we could probably support more artists and get more fantastic art.
       • Ad 1.5.1.1

         28 July 2017 at 1:56 pm

         That’s quite some alternative human history you want to run there.

         Have a go at Arnold Hauser’s Marxist art history theories if you are in to that kind of thing.
         • Draco T Bastard 1.5.1.1.1

           28 July 2017 at 2:20 pm

           That’s quite some alternative human history you want to run there.

           What alternative history?

           You simply cannot have rich people without them getting the wealth from everyone else. So those art patrons supported those artists with wealth from the poor.
           • Ad 1.5.1.1.1.1

             28 July 2017 at 10:34 pm

             “If you removed people at the top” from art patronage you would have mid-brow craft.

             Your point about artists essentially being parasitical on the poor through the rich is good solid Marxist art history.
             • Draco T Bastard …

               28 July 2017 at 10:40 pm

               “If you removed people at the top” from art patronage you would have mid-brow craft.

               Are you purposefully misreading what I said?

               It was fairly obvious that I meant removing the patrons who are a wealth drain. The artists aren’t parasites – the rich are.
               • Ad …

                 28 July 2017 at 10:47 pm

                 No you were just unclear.
                 I understand you now. You are saying if the rich were removed from society that would enable more art.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   28 July 2017 at 10:49 pm

                   Yes.
                   • Ad …

                     28 July 2017 at 10:52 pm

                     The one really big example of the rich being removed from society was the Soviet Union. Art and artists didn’t do so well there. In fact they were persecuted, tortured, and jailed.

                     Nor China. Or Cuba. Or any state in which the rich were removed.

                     I’m struggling to find an example where your point is true.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     29 July 2017 at 1:29 am

                     The one really big example of the rich being removed from society was the Soviet Union.

                     The problem with that example is that an oppressive hierarchy was left in its place rather than an actual community. In other words, the rich stayed in place.

                     And it seems that art thrived in Cuba:

                     Whether they yearn to be sculptors, or dancers, or visual or performing artists, young people are rigorously trained for 11 years at the art or music schools in Cuba … all at government expense. Dance troupes, musicians, and painters are some of the best in the world.

                     Moreover, the government funds culture centers in each of its 19 provinces. These centers promote free concerts, nurture local talent, and insure cultural activities are available to everyone. Cuba has over 265 museums “spread across the country, focusing on history, the Revolution, music, natural science, colonial and ornamental art, weapons, cars, religion, tobacco, rum and sugar.”

                     Occasionally a Cuban artist was discovered and a New York galley exhibited their work but often without the artist, because they could not get a visa to attend. Or, as it were under an exception to the rules, researchers or authorized tour groups would be permitted to visit the country and discovered an artist whose work was then purchased by some third country, a circuitous route to the U.S.

                     That certainly hasn’t popped up since the death of Castro.
   • halfcrown 1.6

     28 July 2017 at 9:05 am

     I just have had a quick skip over will read in depth later. Just brilliant.
   • gsays 1.7

     28 July 2017 at 10:40 am

     Thanks Mandy, a great read.
     Keep up the good work.
     • James Thrace 1.7.1

       28 July 2017 at 2:51 pm

       How did you go with your employment matter gsays? Was it you that was discussing a new contract after your 90 days?
       • gsays 1.7.1.1

         29 July 2017 at 12:25 am

         Hi James,
         I got a ‘performance review’ as stipulated in in initial contract, after many reminders. I was first on the list due to my squeaky wheel approach.

         I am waiting for the boss to get back to me in respect to wage increase/new contract.
         Been 3weeks now.
         Have asked for the living wage which seems to be a high bar as far as the paymaster is concerned.

         Fingers crossed.
   • rhinocrates 1.8

     28 July 2017 at 5:24 pm

     Thank you very much for that.

     I recently had the luck to meet Ruth Gotlieb, a former Wellington City Councillor, and thank her for fighting so hard to defend the city libraries from the philistines like Parkin and Blumsky who saw everything as either profitable or useless. ‘They’re the cornerstone of civilisation,’ she said. Indeed!

     And as my favourite writer said:

     Civilization is in a race between education and catastrophe. Let us learn the truth and spread it as far and wide as our circumstances allow. For the truth is the greatest weapon we have. ― H.G. Wells
     • rhinocrates 1.8.1

       28 July 2017 at 5:47 pm

       Hmm, I remember reading in R. D. Laing’s The Politics of Experience something similar to this that you quote from Ursula LeGuin:

       words are events, they do things, change things

       Thoughts are real as they have consequences, to paraphrase him. Therefore to control the thoughts that are possible by what language and facts are available to us, to alter the value of thoughts that are had…
     • rhinocrates 1.8.2

       28 July 2017 at 5:52 pm

       OK, I’m continuing a close reading and picking out points of note, I hope people don’t mind.

       On the discussion of Eleanor Catton, one of her harshest and most misogynistic (calling her a ‘whore’, trying to excuse it with ‘Oops, I mean Hua’) is that oaf Sean Plunkett, now The Opportunities Party’s ‘Director Media and Communications.’ If Gareth Morgan’s hatred of cats wasn’t enough…

       Brian Edwards proved that he’s not entirely overcome by the influence of Michelle Boag on The Panel:

       On this, Brian Edwards said in his piece on this subject:

       ‘More insidious . . . is the implication in all of this that if the state has assisted you in your endeavours and contributed to your success, you forfeit the right to publicly criticise the country, its people, policies or leadership. Loss of freedom of speech is apparently the interest you have to pay on your debt to New Zealand.’
     • rhinocrates 1.8.3

       28 July 2017 at 6:00 pm

       I’m quite a fan of Robert Hughes and his Culture of Complaint should be required reading to anyone thinking that campaigns for censorship of the arts should be practised if it’s for a ‘good cause’ because it plays right into the hands of the authoritarian right. The chapter ‘Art and the Therapeutic Fallacy’ is apposite – art must challenge, not comfort.
       • Morrissey 1.8.3.1

         29 July 2017 at 10:50 am

         Sadly, rhinocrates, Hughes’s book instantly became a cultural weapon for the extreme right wing. Hughes pours scorn and heaps ridicule on black culture, and on black academics. Hughes was really just another Clive James—a privileged, pampered, smart-sounding Sydneysider who deliberately set himself up as something exotic, and different. The late Christopher Hitchens built a career doing something similar.
     • rhinocrates 1.8.4

       28 July 2017 at 6:09 pm

       Continuing my running commentary:

       It beggars belief, then, why the government thought it wise to dis-incentivise post-graduate education by removing any funding or student loan options to those who wish to further pursue their area of expertise or who are over 50 years of age. It simply makes no sense. You cannot claim on the one-hand that you want skilled practitioners, while on the other you steal away the opportunities to upskill.

       Absolutely. Joyce is a prime example of the ‘penny wise, pound foolish’ mentality of utilitarian education. Innovation comes from imagination, not mundane ‘skill.’ The skilled are always followers, the imaginative are leaders.

       I don’t see much hope for Labour’s education policy with a moron like Shitkins as spokesthing for that portfolio, alas.
       • rhinocrates 1.8.4.1

         28 July 2017 at 6:24 pm

         Even worse, perhaps, is how this winner/loser narrative is used to blame the victim (i.e. the unemployed are all on drugs; the shortness of a woman’s dress invites abuse; the homeless choose to live on the streets) and the resultant change in a society manifests as a distinct lessening of empathy and compassion.

         Cheers to Meteria Turei. A damned smart and principled move by her. Billshit and Bennett have fiddled the system and blamed the victims for years, and now the debate’s been opened to actually include the real Kiwi attitude of compassion once more.

         Hosking’s got his Ferrari (or is it a Lamborghini – I forget) and his tiny little mind is so small, it thinks that a bloody lump of metal is some sort of fulfilment. I used to have nightmares thinking that I’d get something like that and ask myself, ‘is that all there is to life, this thing?

         You want to talk about patriotism, you want to talk about real Kiwi values? Then talk about giving the poorest a fair go!
       • rhinocrates 1.8.4.2

         28 July 2017 at 6:52 pm

         I’ve heard ‘Prostetnic Vogon Joyce’ along with ‘Dildo Baggins.’ Ha!
     • rhinocrates 1.8.5

       28 July 2017 at 6:14 pm

       Several other academics I have spoken with confirm that they are now required to sign gagging clauses that prevent them from criticising current government policy, as do many public servants. When we hear of this happening in Trump’s America (i.e. the gagging of their EPA), we are horrified at this insult to truth, freedom and free speech, yet where is the outrage when it happens here? Many argue it comes on top of a long history in NZ of pouring scorn on public intellectuals. Acclaimed journalist and author Bruce Jesson once wrote:

       Anti-intellectualism runs deep in NZ society and we are losing the few forums of discussion that we used to have. Current affairs television has been reduced to entertainment. The Listener, which was once a journal of intellectual quality, has been reduced to a TV viewer’s magazine. Talkback radio caters for bigots. The universities don’t fulfil a critical function in NZ society.

       And this is the key to it, for me. As H.G. Wells said, we are in a race between eduction and catastrophe. Idiots like Nick Smith who think that we can clean up our waterways by redefining filthy as clean (and his cretinous cheerleaders like Wayne Mapp) are a genuine danger, because the bar the way to solutions.

       Trump is targeting the press and academia, pushing scientists out of government bodies. Key thought that he could shop around for different versions of reality that suited him (I wonder if he ever read any Philip K Dick… nah, he doesn’t read).

       We need more scientists politically engaged along with artists.
       • rhinocrates 1.8.5.1

         28 July 2017 at 6:21 pm

         Our government makes it plain that it is only interested in ‘vocational’ courses, not those that might breed a new generation of free thinkers. And while it’s possible that some humanities departments are suffering drops in student numbers, this is hardly surprising given young people must now weigh up pursuit of knowledge for passion’s sake against outrageously high student loans.

         Exactly. Penny wise and pound foolish. The skilled make good followers, those taught to be imaginative lead. Otherwise, you’re condemning New Zealand’s industry to an ever-descending spiral of imitation. It’ll never get ahead without teaching imagination.
     • rhinocrates 1.8.6

       28 July 2017 at 6:17 pm

       Louise Nicholas exposed police internal discipline inadequacies which continue to be a problem.

       Oh yeah, Labour, thanks for putting up that rapist-supporting scumbag as your Ohariu candidate. If I lived a mile to the west, I’d actually vote for Dunne! (as is, Robertson? No way)
       • rhinocrates 1.8.6.1

         28 July 2017 at 6:42 pm

         I mean, seriously, what the fuck were you thinking? O’Connor and Jackson? Not enough rapists voting Labour? Quick, we need someone who’ll advocate for them!
     • rhinocrates 1.8.7

       28 July 2017 at 6:32 pm

       This is the true nature of a social democracy — the system most New Zealanders support when push comes to shove. Freedom of speech, and the rooting out of corruption, are fundamental principles we should not have to constantly fight for; they should be our bottom line.

       The informed critique of government and society. This is the ethos of the old socialist push of speakers going back to John Ruskin, William Morris and before was to reach out to the people as a whole and to teach them that the arts and that imagination could make change for the better.

       Actoid Rodney Hyde (how appropriate – a Hyde without a Dr Jekyll) once said that the purpose of an ‘economy’ – not a civilisation, a word he had forgotten, was to allow people ‘to buy stuff.’ We are more than consumers!
     • rhinocrates 1.8.8

       28 July 2017 at 6:35 pm

       Community education of all kinds should be immediately revived, funded and encouraged… Concerted work also needs to be undertaken to entrench ethics, civics and values education across all sectors of society, and to encourage our young people to take an active role in improving the world in which they live.

       Compare this with the Orangegropenfuhrer’s now-infamous speech to the Boy Scouts. It was utterly contrary to Scout ethics of service and was all about self-interest and resentment. Vulgarity is not merely aesthetically offensive, it is detrimental to society.
     • rhinocrates 1.8.9

       28 July 2017 at 6:40 pm

       Conclusion:

       Aristotle taught that business or toil is merely utilitarian; it may be necessary but does not enrich or ennoble a human life. The aim of art is to represent not the outward appearance of things, but their inward significance, and this, not the external manner and detail, is true reality. How about we end the cycle that sees the injustices wrought in Heloise’s world repeated in our own? We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future.

       This is not just a platitude. If you go back to the merely utilitarian, then remember ‘penny wise and pound foolish.’ The utilitarian argument fails on its own terms. It does not bring a greater good in the long run. It condemns us to being followers, always lagging behind the innovation of others, condemning us, like the workers of Weta, to being ‘Mexicans with cellphones.’ as one studio executive put it.

       On the terms of civilisation and humanity, it is completely and always abhorrent.

       Thank you Mandy Hager, that is a fine essay and it must be read.

       My apologies for a long series of comments, but this is an important essay and if people can’t take the time to read all of it, they need to see the parts that are relevant to Standard readers.
2. Morrissey 2

   28 July 2017 at 6:59 am

   The power of popular protest

   Even one of the harshest, most oppressive regimes on the planet has been proven helpless against concerted peaceful popular protest…..

   https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/27/israel-removes-further-security-measures-from-al-aqsa-compound
3. Ed 3

   28 July 2017 at 7:03 am

   Looks like our government is failing to abide by Article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights – which it signed up to.

   ‘Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
   Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.’
   • Draco T Bastard 3.1

     28 July 2017 at 1:28 pm

     The only way to maintain rich people is to steal from everyone else.
   • Red 3.2

     28 July 2017 at 3:45 pm

     Nz do a pretty good job here Ed compared to most of the world so what’s your point
4. Cinny 4

   28 July 2017 at 7:38 am

   Good journalism from Newsroom this morning re Ministry of Health funding.

   “The DHB funding blunder will not go away, with fresh details raising questions about a rogue Ministry and when exactly the Government knew something was wrong. Shane Cowlishaw reports.”

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/07/27/40171/funding-blunder-docs-reveal-rogue-ministry
   • tc 4.1

     28 July 2017 at 1:54 pm

     The henchmen can’t even agree over the size of the cuts, deary me.

     Nationals appointed beancounters, ex PWC’ers and associated club members. The fresh face of gutting our health system.

     I see the CFO’s freshly on board after helping the kiwirail stripping along with an ex education ministry head kicker.

     No wonder it’s described as abrasive with Coleman being called ‘lazy’ by one DHB member, understatement IMO.
   • miravox 4.2

     28 July 2017 at 6:31 pm

     It looks like this one has a long way to run. The upside is that operational funding for some DHBs funding is unexpectedly albeit temporarily increased… if the CEO can manage to ‘fix’ it for the DHBs left short, and without reducing funding next year for the DHBs with the windfall. Still to be seen how the DHBs will manage this mess.

     It will be very interesting to get more background on how this error was made.

     As an aside I’ve noticed a couple of instances with service sectors being reframed as ‘industries’ e.g. illustration in this article calling the health sector the health industry, and after the grenfell disaster in UK, the fire services sector (emergency services, inspectors etc) being referred to by minster as ‘the fire industry’. I’m not sure where they’re going with this, but i think it’s a deliberate reframing from a vocational/service concept to a business imagery.
5. Nic the NZer 5

   28 July 2017 at 8:07 am

   http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=36534

   Progressive economist speaking in Wellington today. There is a live stream.
   • The Chairman 5.1

     28 July 2017 at 9:00 pm

     It’s also available on demand (just press the play button in the link below).
     https://vstream.victoria.ac.nz/ess/echo/presentation/6dc7bf0a-fa14-47b5-8bc9-3798fe6cd280
6. Ad 6

   28 July 2017 at 10:43 am

   If Macron made an offer to be PM of New Zealand I’d take it.
   I think the last time an NZ PM was this good with the media, it was Seddon himself:

   http://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-pr-press-7-magic-moments/

   The pictures are really something.
7. Penny Bright 7

   28 July 2017 at 1:11 pm

   GARETH MORGAN BITES LIKE A WHITE POINTER SHARK!

   Friday 28 July 2017

   “Penny you are so into personality politics it’s sick.

   What matters is policy nothing else.

   You need to get focussed on that if you want to be anything more than idiot wind in this thread.

   Try starting by telling us just one policy that you want and why – just one.

   Then at least we can see you have some content and what it is.”

   Gareth Morgan was responding to this post I made on his TOP Facebook page:

   “In my view – you’re being conned.

   The real reason, IMO, for Gareth Morgan’s TOP is to keep this National-led Government in power, and to do that, help undermine Winston Peters and NZ First.

   Not the first time that’s been attempted.

   Remember 2014 and another millionaire, Colin Craig and his Conservative Party?

   IMO – very similar in terms of what their political purpose was – to help reduce votes for NZ First.”

   MY RESPONSE TO GARETH MORGAN 28 July 2017:

   [deleted]
   _____________________________

   Which political parties in NZ
   have such an ACTION PLAN?

   What I would like to see is AS MANY political parties/ groups / organisations and individuals ‘pick up the ball’ here and ‘help themselves’ to as many of these ‘demands’ as possible – so we get AS MANY people as possible calling for genuine transparency and accountability in New Zealand.

   “Where the people lead – the politicians will follow …”

   Politically – we need to CLEAN our country up!

   On the NZ anti- corruption front – this ACTION PLAN gives a clear path forward.

   Please folks – all I ask you to do is read carefully and consider these ACTION PLAN points, and if you agree – please SHARE?

   THANKS!

   Penny 🙂

   [have deleted some of the too long cut and paste. How about putting a link in so people can see for themselves? – weka]
8. Andre 8

   28 July 2017 at 1:20 pm

   When Spicy bailed, didn’t you just wonder what anyone could do to top him? Wonder no more, The Mooch brings a whole new level of WTF to WhiteHouse communications.

   http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/344215-scaramucci-priebus-is-a-paranoid-schizophrenic-will-be-asked-to

   Anyone remember back to the good old days of, oh, seven months ago, when this was still such way OTT satire that it was still funny?
9. Ad 9

   28 July 2017 at 1:54 pm

   Lessons in how to ‘manage upward’, from the Pentagon to the current U.S. President:

   “The Department of Defense is awaiting formal guidance from the White House as a follow-up to the Commander-In-Chief’s announcement on military service by transgender personnel. We will provide detailed guidance to the Department in the near future for how this policy change will be implemented. The Department will continue to focus on our mission of defending our nation and on-going operations against our foes, while ensuring all servicemembers are treated with respect.”
10. alwyn 10

    28 July 2017 at 2:00 pm

    If anyone still is under the delusion that Labour or Green politicians can provide sensible, affordable Government try reading about this disaster.
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/95158475/island-bay-cycleway-solutions-to-cost-ratepayers-up-to-77m-and-remove-57-car-parks

    This was part of the stupid cycle project pushed by our last (Green) Mayor and the current (Labour) Mayor and his deputy.
    They managed to make one of the widest, safest roads in Wellington into a disaster zone. Millions and millions of ratepayers dollars put into a crazy scheme to appeal to a couple of dozen cyclists a day. That is on a fine calm day. Today there would be none. Now they want to throw more millions at it, rather than just remove the mess they made and go back to the situation we had before they went quite insane.
    I went a couple of times to have a look at whether it was used. There were a few cyclists on the road in an hour or so’s observation, most of whom ignored the cycle lanes and rode on the (now much narrower) traffic lanes. Buses have to stop as the roadway that was left after this fiasco are not wide enough for them to pass.

    Eagle, the deputy Mayor, is running for the Labour Party in the Rongotai electorate.in Wellington. I rather hope he wins. He will do a great deal less harm in a back bench seat in the Opposition than he does on the Wellington Council.
    • McFlock 10.1

      28 July 2017 at 2:12 pm

      lol I love how the stuff link multiplies the cost by a factor of 11.

      It’ll cost <$7mil, not 77.

      All that aside, I suspect that wgtn, like dunedin, is looking at cycleways and improvements because people were seriously injured or died. I have a lot of issues with cyclists (especially mixing with pedestrians), but I don't have a problem with going overboard on wide cycle lanes. Too many people got squished.
      • alwyn 10.1.1

        28 July 2017 at 3:27 pm

        I hadn’t noticed the “77” error in the link.
        I went back and read the article and at first I couldn’t see what you were talking about. Quite funny really. I can’t really believe it was deliberate though. The Dompost people don’t have that much imagination.

        In terms of accidents this part of Island Bay road had had NO reported cycling accidents in the 10 years or so before they put in the new arrangement. They have had a number of accidents since. The problem is that the cycle lane winds along close to, and in some places ON the footpath. It also weaves around the bus shelters and close to the parking, as you can see in the photos. I believe it is the danger of riding on the lane that leads the cyclists to go back to the safer road.
        Imagine trying to put a child in your car. You have to do it from the cycle lane. Then you either get hit by a cyclist or hit one when you open the door.

        By the way did you read the comments attached to the article on the Dompost site? There is the odd enthusiast among the scores of those opposed.
        Most people think it is dreadful and want to know why the bloody council can’t just admit it and scrap the silly thing.
    • Gabby 10.2

      28 July 2017 at 2:13 pm

      Let me guess – the cyclists prefer to use the road anyway.
    • DoublePlusGood 10.3

      28 July 2017 at 2:49 pm

      Frankly, it’s an excellent idea to have a cycle lane through to Island Bay – they just signed off on a poor design. People in Wellington shouldn’t be hating on the councillors, they should be hating on whoever designed the stupid design of it.
      • Chris 10.3.1

        28 July 2017 at 7:05 pm

        They should have left it as is

        It didn’t need a cycleway
11. McFlock 11

    28 July 2017 at 2:11 pm

    [crap, stuffed up reply]
12. RedLogix 12

    28 July 2017 at 6:05 pm

    Another poor mis-understood Muslim:

    A Sydney-based Islamic leader is claiming Australian women need Muslim men to “fertilise them” because of recent reports that sperm counts in western males are dropping drastically.

    Halal Certification Authority boss Mohamed El-Mouelhy said Australian women would “need us to fertilise them and keep them surrounded by Muslim babies”.

    Mr El-Mouelhy suggests the white race could become extinct within 40 years if Australia is left to the “bigots” he believes should “commit suicide”.

    “Your men are a dying breed, Australian women need us to fertilise them and keep them surrounded by Muslim babies while beer swilling, cigarette smoking, drug injecting can only dream of what Muslim men are capable of.”

    “Muslims have a duty to make your women happy.”

    “Because you are declining, better go choose a plot for yourself at your local cemetery.”

    “If you can’t afford it, commit suicide. It is a cheaper alternative for bigots.”

    The controversial comments were posted to Mr El-Mouelhy’s Facebook page.

    http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/australian-women-need-muslims-to-fertilise-them-islamic-leader/ar-AAoWRwl?li=AAavLaF&ocid=ientp
    • RedLogix 12.1

      28 July 2017 at 6:32 pm

      Just to be clear … I’m assuming this is some kind of windup. 🙂
      • Gabby 12.1.1

        28 July 2017 at 8:09 pm

        Somebody who didn’t get Mr M’s sensa yuma might complain about the incitement to suicide. Of course that might be self-deprecation.
13. RedLogix 13

    28 July 2017 at 6:11 pm

    The Coalition holds a one-seat majority in the House of Representatives which bans anyone who is a “citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or a citizen of a foreign power”.

    http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/citizenship-crisis-grows-to-engulf-over-20-mps/ar-AAoW4wv?ocid=ientp

    Now all I’m waiting for is for someone to point out that because all Australian’s are automatically entitled to NZ citizenship, therefore maybe none of them are really eligible to stand for the Senate. 🙂
    • McFlock 13.1

      28 July 2017 at 6:44 pm

      that last bit about automatic entitlement isn’t true, is it? A wind-up?
      • RedLogix 13.1.1

        28 July 2017 at 7:02 pm

        Well if you read some of the commentary on this it may well be defendable if no action has been taken to ‘activate’ the right to NZ citizenship.

        But the funny thing is the way the Constitutional clause is written this is not at all clear.

        Deeply ironic in light of the way the Senate has been denying kiwis access to citizenship in Aus.
        • McFlock 13.1.1.1

          28 July 2017 at 7:06 pm

          It was the entitlement of aussies to be new zealanders that I was surprised at.

          Methinks one country views our special relationship as more special than the otherdoes…
14. Andrea 14

    28 July 2017 at 8:14 pm

    ‘Lazy Kiwis who don’t want to work in agriculture’

    Once upon a time you could build a career or a livelihood. Work one or two jobs and build up enough equity to get onto your own farm.

    Now? Agri-business is starting to kill the dream.

    Same with the in-town jobs. Doesn’t matter how hard you work, or how many hours. How loyal – it doesn’t seem to show up in the pay packet, training opportunities or career advancement.

    But hey! I forgot. It’s only the top echelons who need financial encouragement to perform. Threats and warning stories work best on the shrinking mass of workers.

    Just do enough. There’s not much point in trying to do better.
15. The Real Matthew 15

    28 July 2017 at 8:35 pm

    “Pākehā, learn from Māori and Pacifica peoples about how to share land and housing, we don’t have to completely reinvent the wheel.”

    The term Pakeha is a racist term and is derogatory to New Zealanders. If everyone on this website could stop using it the world would be a better place.

    The statement is also incorrect. New Zealanders already have more than adequate ability to structure shared land ownership. For instance trust law has been shaped over centuries and existed well before Maori made it to New Zealand shores. A Trust would be a good mechanism to govern shared ownership. Alternatively a Partnership could be arranged.

    No need to “learn” from any other ethnicity. We simply need to utilise the mechanisms we already have.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
    
16. Sumsuch 16

    29 July 2017 at 3:09 am

    Sorry, I haven’t been following daily utterances, which I think is a strength. Stephen Mills as the representative of the Left on RNZ’s Left and Right back and forth on Monday morning is as vile as the Hilary Clinton he supported against Sanders. Listen to his last input. He is almost as involved in the rich and strong as her. The Left is always about revolution, he responds to that as an entirely unexpected, and ear-waxical, surprise. Mike Williams at least has individual integrity for his right-wingism.

    The Left is about revolution, is about heart. When Catherine Ryan can find someone less like herself to involve my heart again she will have found a representative of the Left.

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