Open mike 29/07/2024

52 comments on “Open mike 29/07/2024 ”

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1. lprent 1

   29 July 2024 at 8:39 am

   Had a wee problem this morning with changing a plugin. Broke the test site and the main site at the same time after changing it.

   Fixed for the moment, but the feeds are off until I fix it more permanently.
   • dv 1.1

     29 July 2024 at 8:51 am

     At least it didn't take the world out!!!
     • Tiger Mountain 1.1.1

       29 July 2024 at 9:10 am

       
   • lprent 1.2

     29 July 2024 at 10:13 am

     It appears from reading the code that the obsolete sub-plugin was not good at unhooking itself. I could have just restarted the apache/php and it would have fixed it.

     umm.. Ok – turning feeds back on (cross-fingers).
     • lprent 1.2.1

       29 July 2024 at 10:18 am

       That worked. Now the cdn and caches need to be adjusted so that I can work on the test site.

       drat – killed all of the content because updated plugin added. Manually loaded some feeds. rest will appear in about 40 minutes as they auto update.
2. gsays 2

   29 July 2024 at 8:50 am

   A lazy ask.

   I hear on the radio that 3 Pacifica MPs(?) have resigned from The Greens, citing feeling disrespected and rushing of the Tana saga.

   Can anyone provide a link that covers this plz?
   • Mac1 2.1

     29 July 2024 at 8:54 am

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/523412/three-green-party-members-quit-over-treatment-of-darleen-tana

     Not MPs but party members.
     • Matiri 2.1.1

       29 July 2024 at 9:09 am

       One of the three is married to Elizabeth Kerekere, the ex Green MP.
       • Tiger Mountain 2.1.1.1

         29 July 2024 at 9:21 am

         The tone of the reported resignation statement seemed like a media channel beat up…is there anyone that did not have love for Efeso Collins? why would his tragic death have any effect on the Pasifika group unless there was some ulterior motive…these three may be seeking payback time by the sounds of it over the “cry baby” affair.

         The Greens picked a dud in Ms Tana and they are squarely facing up to the fact as uncomfortable as it may be. All political parties make some regretful selections of candidates–Natzos, NZ Labour, NZ First, ACT and others over the years–I won’t name all the ones I know of…but some of you Standard Posters and readers probably know who recent ones are. Heh, “its still early lets go out clubbing!” as one meme featuring Sam Uffindell said.
         • weka 2.1.1.1.1

           29 July 2024 at 9:54 am

           It's really hard to tell what is going on, but I still think it's a both/and situation. The Greens also picked a dud in Kerekere, who also trashed the party as she left.

           Last night I was started to write a post about the AGM, and the expelling Tana process. Then I read about the 3 Pasifika senior members and gave up. It's too complicated and I can't rule out that the Greens (caucus, leaders, office holders) are doing bad process in part.

           I think about how James Shaw handled the issue of the two rogue MPs after Turei's speech. The man hardly every fronts as angry and he was visibly very angry when he spoke to media. But his approach was different from Swarbrick, who came out calling Tana a liar who had betrayed her and the party. There's the process of expelling MPs, and then there is how you do it. Anyone who was on Tana's side would have been rejected at that point (bearing in mind very few people had seen the report).

           It gets worse from my pov. I'm thinking about how the party dealt with the gender critical feminist members in the party when they tried to raise issues of policy around women's sex based rights. They were basically shut down, which is against GP kaupapa around communication. If the kaupapa can be broken then, why not at other times?

           There is something intrinsically problematic about what I call the liberal left's approach. It's ok to cancel people, but in that process, because it is based in an ideology of force, we lose good process and he tangata he tangata he tangata. That affects all progressive parties, but especially the Greens, because their core principles are around effective communication/appropriate decision making and making sure people are ok.

           Again, I have no idea what is going on, and that in itself is a sign something is not right. The post I wanted to write was about how to listen to what the Greens say in their own words if you want to understand them. But I'm not sure that is still true.
         • Bearded Git 2.1.1.1.2

           29 July 2024 at 10:07 am

           +100 Tiger
     • gsays 2.1.2

       29 July 2024 at 10:25 am

       Thanks Mac. Yes, in subsequent reports I've heard they are members.

       Bit of a Gordian knot for Greens leadership. These members feeling rushed and others frustrated at seemingly dragging it out.
   • Dennis Frank 2.2

     29 July 2024 at 9:10 am

     There's a report here: https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/07/29/green-party-fractures-start-to-show-over-darleen-tana-debate/

     Pasifika Greens members Marie Laufiso, Alofa Aiono, and Vasemaca Tavola resigned from the Greens on Sunday, with Laufiso reading out a letter at the AGM. The letter, published in-full on Radio Waatea, said the three members felt "culturally unsafe" in the Greens and had suffered from and witnessed actions that have "diminished, demeaned, and disempowered [their] cultural, spiritual and familial well-being".

     Around 200 party delegates will spend between now and 1 September speaking to their branches to consider the option, and any defence Tana may put up. They will then hold a Special General Meeting, with 75% of delegates required to decide to party-hop Tana before the co-leaders write to the Speaker.

     So it's all about feelings. Whilst feelings are natural, tradition has tended to focus on how widely shared they are as a gauge of political relevance, and politics is always a numbers game. Performance of minority rights can be valid in the right situation, but the cultural divide evident here requires elucidation – which we haven't had yet.
     • gsays 2.2.1

       29 July 2024 at 3:42 pm

       After reading their letter, I was left with the feeling that identity politics is paramount.

       By that I mean that they were focused on the identity of the folk involved rather than their actions.

       Thereby ignoring the victims both Tana and Kerekere made.

       Kind of a selective compassion.

       I have no comment to make on the support issue surrounding Efeso Collins passing.
       • weka 2.2.1.1

         29 July 2024 at 5:17 pm

         Perhaps consider that for Māori and Pasifika, treating one's people well holds a different cultural significance than for Pākehā.

         I mean, Swarbrick did basically use her considerable position of power to call Tana a liar and betrayer in public. It's actually quite shocking. Mana destroying. Maybe Tana deserved it, but my understanding of Māori culture is that there are ways to address people's bad actions, and that's not one of them.

         I don't see much identity politics in that letter. I see some serious issues being raised for the Greens, assuming that what they say is true. Is Swarbrick going to stand up and call them liars too?

         I don't like Kerekere, and I'm glad she is done. I think there are conflicts of interest here because one of the people resigning is EG's wife. I disagree that EK put the party's interests above her own, in that she slagged the party off as she left. But this doesn't mean that Roopu Pasifika are wrong in everything they are saying, nor that they are wrong about the treatment and how things have been handled even if EK and Tana did terrible things.

         I already had concerns over how Tana was dealt with, and this just adds to it. It also makes the leadership team look like they have consolidated power. That, or there is a serious breakdown in interpersonal relationships in the party (Kerekere's bullying, Ghahraman, Tana, Genter). Starting to look like a pattern.

         I wrote above about how the party treated gender critical feminists. Same pattern imo. I used to argue that the Greens' position and behaviour on GC issues was an anomaly, but now I am not so sure.

         I also think parliament is a very difficult place to be functional in, so I'm not even blaming the leadership or whoever. But it's possible there are ideological as well as cultural issues at play. One problem is with talking about the feelings in public elevated as a priority, is that people air their dirty laundry in public as well. All of this should have been dealt with in house.
         • weka 2.2.1.1.1

           29 July 2024 at 5:22 pm

           I do know that when Shaw's co-leadership was challenged, his response was to listen to the members, he took a position of humility. Probably some learning there for CS, but difficult being a new co-leader I think.
         • gsays 2.2.1.1.2

           29 July 2024 at 6:00 pm

           I am not at odds with what you say here and respect yr view, especially speaking as a member. I figure we have different priorities.

           Interesting point about "Perhaps consider that for Māori and Pasifika, treating one's people well holds a different cultural significance than for Pākehā", as I feel it is very important to uphold another's mana. Perhaps I picked that up from our caramel cousins. They seem to have no problem ignoring the mana of victims in these sagas (those bullied by Kerekere, Charles Simpson. Nick Scott, Santiago Palma and 'Employee A').

           My mention of identity politics was less about the established framing of IP but more from the complainants framing. Very much an individual view, no regard for the organisation.

           The complainants seem to have accrued a disparate bunch of grievances and bundled them together at their most opportune moment and at the party's least, to maximise what little leverage they have.
3. Tiger Mountain 3

   29 July 2024 at 9:08 am

   Re the Golan Heights rocket–comparing slaughter figures does not make for much of an argument for some…but…lets face it, the IDF has comprehensively pummelled Gaza, destroying the only Cancer treatment facility, schools, water and sewage infrastructure, and thousands of dwellings with a lot more than 12 children lying beneath the rubble. RNZ is favouring Israel as per usual. This Genocide has to stop or the Mid East is going up in flames too.

   https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/7/28/israels-war-on-gaza-live-11-killed-in-israeli-occupied-golan-heights?update=3077652
   • Bearded Git 3.1

     29 July 2024 at 10:14 am

     I love the way Netanyahu rushed home (after his speech had been boycotted by 100 House and 17 Senate Democrats) because of the 10 deaths in the illegally occupied Golan Heights.

     He can commit genocide, but he continues to play politics with the relatively tiny number of people suffering on the Israeli side. Doesn't he realise that his actions have cemented Israel as a pariah for generations to come?
     • Tiger Mountain 3.1.1

       29 July 2024 at 11:05 am

       Hard to answer Git, some reckon at root it is about him trying to avoid jail.

       Israel is certainly stuffed for the future, all sorts of ordinary people that I encounter as I go about life are perplexed and upset that “someone” is not getting aid to Gaza and ending the situation. Long time friends that are not overly politically are very intense on this issue, attending weekly demos and vigils and hitting social media in solidarity.
   • SPC 3.2

     29 July 2024 at 11:27 am

     Those killed were Druze, they lived there before the occupation and were not Israeli citizens (despite being offered it they remained Syria citizens).
     • Tiger Mountain 3.2.1

       29 July 2024 at 11:56 am

       Aware of that, the point being in this situation that it is the “occupied Golan Heights”.
     • Subliminal 3.2.2

       29 July 2024 at 1:14 pm

       And as Syrians under occupation in much the same way as Palestinians in the occupied territories, Syria is the country that holds their welfare at heart. We have ample proof of the genocidal treatment of indigenous people by Israel. Hezbollah is adamant that it was not their rocket/missile and Syria is taking the same line. Proof from an independent investigation will be needed. This is also the line from the head of the UN. Israel can obviously not be trusted.
       • SPC 3.2.2.1

         29 July 2024 at 2:03 pm

         Sure, we know that Hezbollah would not fire a rocket/missile at a Druze village. But we also know is that they are firing them off and the IDF are trying to shoot them. What happened and the reliability of assertions made are not known.
   • SPC 3.3

     29 July 2024 at 2:08 pm

     Elias Bou Saab

     • Hezbollah has no interest in bombing the town
     • The mediators are in constant contact with us and trying to avoid a major escalation.
     • We do not want war but the Israelis want to cover up what is happening in Gaza by escalation.
     • US envoy Amos Hochstein is well aware of the difficulty of controlling the fronts while the war on Gaza continues.
     • Lebanon is united and will be more united if Israel decides to expand its attacks.
     • Israel must realise that war is not what will bring the residents back to their towns in the north.
     • If civilian casualties occur or if Beirut and its suburbs are targeted, we will not consider this a measured and limited response.
4. Dennis Frank 4

   29 July 2024 at 9:22 am

   This is the second time the Greens have attempted to raise public consciousness of hurt feelings: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chloe-swarbrick-explains-why-three-senior-green-members-walked-out-of-agm/GOW5JABA3RBB3IE4D7VPVVJO54/

   I recall having hurt feelings at times in the Greens, but when Jeanette Fitzsimons called me stalinist I felt highly entertained. I think it was in response to my first justice policy draft as convenor of the party working group on justice (snail-mail postage to other members to ascertain consensus) when I advocated dropping recidivist violent offenders off on Auckland Island. I figured that a dose of darwinism ought to sought them out.

   So this tendency to rate feelings as a prime dimension of politics is rather novel, but it could be a sign of emotional intelligence so I won't criticise them too soon.
   • Visubversa 4.1

     29 July 2024 at 9:54 am

     Once upon a time it used to be what you could do for the Party – and for the ideals in which you believed.

     Now it seems to be what the Party can do for them, and if they don't feel rewarded enough – they flounce off in a huff.
   • weka 4.2

     29 July 2024 at 11:26 am

     To be fair, your suggestion does sound Stalinist 🙂
     • Dennis Frank 4.2.1

       29 July 2024 at 11:36 am

       I can acknowledge that this is apparent in retrospect. At the time I felt being audacious was likely to get the Greens revved up. I deliberately did the unthinkable in the hope that it would get folks thinking. It just spooked them a wee bit, I guess, since none of them ever called my bluff. I wrote rehab into the policy draft instead.
       • adam 4.2.1.1

         29 July 2024 at 11:41 am

         Boo hiss, should have gone with left populism
5. Jenny 5

   29 July 2024 at 9:28 am

   Human beings have found a brand new way to screw up the planet.

   Climate change, plastic pollution, add to these looming calamities – Dark Oxygen Depletion.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/society/350356999/scientists-find-dark-oxygen-being-produced-metals-sea-floor
   • Subliminal 5.1

     29 July 2024 at 3:08 pm

     This is certainly a quite extraordinary discovery – to the extent that it may mean a rethink on the origins of life. It had been thought that oxygen production required algae but turns out that giant oxygen producing batteries on the sea floor powered by heat from deep sea vents may have been first.

     Turns out that mining of these regions kills the ocean through destroying this delicate oxygen making geology.

     https://www.sciencealert.com/mysterious-dark-oxygen-discovered-at-bottom-of-ocean-stuns-scientists
   • SPC 5.2

     29 July 2024 at 5:27 pm

     Moratorium: Canada, New Zealand, Switzerland, Mexico, Peru, and United Kingdom. Precautionary pause: Brazil, Costa Rica, Chile, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Kingdom of Denmark, Monaco, Panama, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Vanuatu.

     https://deep-sea-conservation.org/solutions/no-deep-sea-mining/momentum-for-a-moratorium/governments-and-parliamentarians/

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/523254/campaigner-warns-world-moving-towards-pacific-for-deep-sea-minning

     https://www.greenpeace.org/aotearoa/press-release/calls-for-a-moratorium-on-deep-sea-mining-intensify-following-discovery-of-dark-oxygen-production-at-5000m-depths/
6. Dennis Frank 6

   29 July 2024 at 10:34 am

   Greens process is organic…

   Swarbrick conceded that the process was slow and joked that the protracted debate over what to do with Tana was “one of the most Green Party things in the world”. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/chloe-swarbrick-explains-why-three-senior-green-members-walked-out-of-agm/GOW5JABA3RBB3IE4D7VPVVJO54/

   I commend this stance. There's a natural alchemy in group process that characterises self-organising systems in nature. A month of reflection could be appropriate at this stage, particularly for healing across the divide. Perception of incompetence by others could feasibly be discounted if widely-felt concerns relativise them sufficiently…
7. Dennis Frank 7

   29 July 2024 at 10:44 am

   So it's the old double-standard play:

   They said Tana's "character, integrity, and mana" was being smeared, saying for them it drew "re-triggering" parallels with the party's treatment of former MP Elizabeth Kerekere (Aiono is married to Kerekere), and a perceived double standard with the co-leaders' statements about Tana compared with those they have made about Julie-Anne Genter.

   "Minimising her behaviour because an apology was given rings very hollow indeed when both wāhine Māori women MPs were silenced, not allowed to be at Parliament and left with no choice but to resign. "Why were they so hypocritically held to this mythical standard of behaviour when others are not?" Laufiso said. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/523416/green-party-fractures-start-to-show-over-darleen-tana-debate

   Is it really mythical? Merely tacit in the psyche, I reckon. As regards Genter favouritism they could have a point but I suspect this is a matter of perception prevailing over reality. However the privileges committee complaint about Genter could be mythical. No evidence that it's real has showed up as far as I can tell…
   • weka 7.1

     29 July 2024 at 11:29 am

     Looks like an issue of level of behaviour as well. Those three incidences are not the same. That doesn’t preclude issues around cultural differences though.
   • SPC 7.2

     29 July 2024 at 11:41 am

     With Genter, there is long time known quantity and after the incident in parliament (incited ignorance and incompetence at a level which requires getting used to), two people came forward with complaints.

     Both shop owners in Wellington who wanted to harangue a Green MP in a park and while buying flowers before visitjng the hospital.

     An apology indicates an awareness of the problem created for the party, something both Kerekere and Tana and a few others should think over.
   • Res Publica 7.3

     29 July 2024 at 11:46 am

     And maybe also because trying to make all three situations morally equivalent is a spurious, bullshit argument?

     Yes, Julie Anne Genter may have committed the unforgivable crime of yelling at generic white male National MP #34. And that may be subject to a privilege committee complaint.

     But Darleen Tana is either complicit, or the perpetrator of migrant exploitation (depending on how you interpret the situation) and Elizabeth Kerekere was not only useless as an MP (other than her excellent work on the gender conversion bill) but found to be a bully to boot.

     If there is a problem with the culture of the Green Party, it's that it doesn't vet its candidates thoroughly enough and lacks the will to be politically pragmatic.

     Because if there’s anything that diminishes someone’s mana and integrity, it’s being exploited by your employer.
     • bwaghorn 7.3.1

       29 July 2024 at 11:56 am

       It's sounding like a great opportunity to get rid of a bunch of identity ideological fools , no lose, plenty of time to the next election 😉
       • Res Publica 7.3.1.1

         29 July 2024 at 12:38 pm

         Intersectionality is absolutely an invaluable tool for examining the imbalances of power that exist in our society. And we should respect the experiences and input of traditionally marginalized groups (women, POC, LQBTQ+ people)

         But it's not the only tool. And isn't the raison d'être the Green Party.
         • tWig 7.3.1.1.1

           29 July 2024 at 2:39 pm

           Good comments, Res.
8. adam 8

   29 July 2024 at 11:39 am

   I wonder what more people need to understand that the Palestinian’s have had a utterly shit deal?

   https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-adv-01-00-en.pdf

   And our government snuggles up to the perpetrator and it's imperial lover.
   • SPC 8.1

     29 July 2024 at 11:43 am

     Not a fair call, we and Oz and Canada are fast followers whenever the Americans mention a cease-fire.

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/523267/israel-must-listen-luxon-albanese-trudeau-issue-joint-support-for-us-backed-ceasefire
     • adam 8.1.1

       29 July 2024 at 12:56 pm

       The ceasefire call was as shallow a word worm as you can get.

       This Tory collection of wankers, have moved us – without a mandate I might add – towards a total realignment of our foreign policy. One which has us fighting for a violent, self indulgent settler state, who are morally bankrupt.
       • Res Publica 8.1.1.1

         29 July 2024 at 1:56 pm

         a violent, self indulgent settler state

         cough cough doesn't that also somewhat accurately describe New Zealand though?
         • adam 8.1.1.1.1

           29 July 2024 at 8:36 pm

           I think so.
9. joe90 9

   29 July 2024 at 12:44 pm

   .

   
   https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/07/28/dunedin-icon-the-chills-frontman-martin-phillipps-dead-at-61/
10. Dennis Frank 10

    29 July 2024 at 12:48 pm

    Subliminal christianity can be influential via imagery:

    “The co-leaders have again inflamed and weaponised media narratives, intentionally smearing Darleen’s character, integrity and mana,” Pasifika Greens secretary Marie Laufiso said in a letter reportedly read to the party on Sunday. https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/07/29/swarbrick-rallies-green-troops-as-tana-saga-drags-on/

    Warriors in olden times didn't really use flaming swords, but the image does seem consistent with my reading of the old testament in the bible as a child. To think that women leading the Greens are doing something similar nowadays seems a bit of a stretch – but immersion in christian culture can embed it deep within. Impressions are often very influential. All very well telling people to read the room – until they ask "Which room?"
    • Barfly 10.1

      29 July 2024 at 2:41 pm

      "intentionally smearing Darleen’s character, integrity and mana,”

      IMHO she is doing that by her own actions
      • weka 10.1.1

        29 July 2024 at 5:19 pm

        ae, but maybe it's not an all or nothing. How the Greens are handling things also impacts on mana. A political party leader calling an MP a liar and betrayer is mana destroying. I've been wondering what Shaw would have done (and need to go back and look at the language he used with the rogue MPs in 2017).
        • David 10.1.1.1

          30 July 2024 at 8:08 am

          Calling abusive an person a liar does not destroy the mana of the abusive person. The abuser has done that to themselves.

          The greens unfortunately selected someone who doesn't live by their values. I seen a couple of interviews with Darlene since this issue came to light, I'm in no way convinced Darlene is the wronged person she is trying to portray herself as. If anything she is using the mana of the green party, and the mana of being Maori to hide behind, and to legitimate her unscrupulous business practices.
          • weka 10.1.1.1.1

            30 July 2024 at 9:44 am

            It's a given that one's own actions impact on one's mana.

            However I think you might has missed my point. I'm not saying that Tana didn't do wrong, I am arguing that it's possible there are problems in the Greens' internal processes and culture as well.

            In this instance, how CS handled the media side of things strikes me as being particularly Pākehā. I think there are other ways that this could have been handled that would have less fall out all round. I also acknowledge that the Greens have had a really bad run and sometimes pragmatics wins out.

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