Passing the buck on Gaza

22 comments on “Passing the buck on Gaza ”

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1. SPC 1

   26 October 2023 at 7:19 am

   A UN statement was made in consultation with the National Party by New Zealand's Permanent Representative to the UN Carolyn Schwalger.

   "New Zealand joins calls for a humanitarian pause to provide neutral, impartial, and independent humanitarian organisations an opportunity to provide assistance and protection to those in Gaza who desperately need it"

   Schwalger also called for the establishment of designated safe areas that are "strictly off limits as targets, or for military use, and also call for humanitarian corridors to ensure the vital assistance reaches where it is most needed".

   She said New Zealand expected both Israel and Hamas to act in accordance with international law, and that Israel needed to provide basic needs for civilians in Gaza.

   "These legal obligations cannot be dispensed with in times of conflict. New Zealand urges all parties, including Israel and Egypt, to rapidly facilitate access for the delivery of urgent humanitarian assistance to civilians in Gaza, through the Rafah border crossing. The volume of aid arriving in Gaza must significantly increase from recent levels."

   This was done to support others making the same call (at the UN) for international aid and secure supply routes and safe passage for civilians.

   In a separate statement to press, Prime Minister Chris Hipkins reiterated these comments, saying all parties must follow international law and "demonstrate basic humanity".

   "We are appalled by Hamas's brutality, their targeting of civilians, and the taking of hostages, which are in clear violations of international law. We call for the immediate and unconditional release of all hostages."

   This presumably in support of those nations that have citizens held as hostages.

   The Foreign Minister said

   Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta said it was "intolerable to see civilians continue to suffer disproportionately as innocent victims of this conflict".

   Presumably the part objected to is here

   "New Zealand supports the right of Israel to defend itself against Hamas's terrorist attacks, but the way it does so matters. It must abide by international law, exercise restraint, and prioritise the protection of civilians. Ultimately there is no military solution that will bring about a just and lasting peace for Israelis and Palestinians."

   because there was no statement objecting to "self defence" (bombing is a prelude to on the ground invasion), just the means used.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/10/israel-hamas-conflict-new-zealand-calls-for-humanitarian-pause-in-gaza-chris-hipkins-says-all-parties-must-demonstrate-basic-humanity.html

   Bombing campaigns on cities, the preferred method of the west, have never been the road to peace; instead they have meant loss of innocent lives in the millions, furious and long-lasting resentment, homelessness and mass migration.

   There has certainly been a lot by Russia in Chechnya, Syria and Ukraine. And terrorist bombings (including suicide bombers) have been practiced for decades in the ME. And there was a lot by the West against Islamic State "militants" in both northern Iraq and North Eastern Syria (cleaning up the mess caused by the earlier regime change).

   Israel will not bomb Hamas into submission, and the prospect of wider conflagration is seriously frightening.

   That is not the intent – they want Hamas out and replaced as governing agency there. Peace is better than war, but appeasement (of Iran) does not guarantee peace – which is why Saudi Arabia was prepared to buy American security, by doing a deal with Israel (despite the nature of its current government).
   • lprent 1.1

     26 October 2023 at 8:22 am

     because there was no statement objecting to "self defence" (bombing is a prelude to on the ground invasion), just the means used.

     Based on the current results and regardless of any possible inaccuracies in numbers, what is going on in Gaza with the 'prelude' it is hard to see see any military value against Hamas. There have been at least 5000 civilian fatalities, and probably about 60,000 people injured as a result of the 'prelude' bombardment.

     To me and probably to most observers looks like a very indiscriminate attack against unarmed civilians with a deliberate intent of displacement. It has been noticeable that I haven't seen a single credible military observer outside of the IDF commenting favourably on the military value of 'prelude' bombardment.

     That is not the intent – they want Hamas out and replaced as governing agency there.

     It is impossible to see a scenario of how the current campaign is designed to achieve that. Previous bombing campaigns just drove the Hamas structure underground. There has been a notable lack of detail about how this campaign has done anything apart from creating a great urban landscape for insurgent warfare. No images of bunker busters caving in tunnels.

     This just looks like a collective punishment for Gaza residents voting Hamas into power 17 years ago in the last election.

     Basically your arguments make as much military sense as the IDF's proclamations about their strategy – none at all. Unless of course the intent is to just keep killing civilians whilst staying away from getting shot at.

     Peace is better than war, but appeasement (of Iran) does not guarantee peace, – which is why Saudi Arabia was prepared to buy American security, by doing a deal with Israel…

     The problem with this bit of sanctimonious bullshit is that Saudi Arabia sits directly across a relatively gulf from Iran. Whereas Gaza is about 1100km from the nearest Iranian border.

     The only reason that there isn't peace in Gaza is because the idiot citizens of Israel and its governments haven't dealt with the internal problems of the areas that they occupy or have blockaded for generations.

     Your thinking is just as lazy as that of Israelis. Why exactly haven’t they dealt with helping the displaced Palestinians since 1995 to not want to be susceptible to being involved with fanatic groups like Hamas. It appears from the outside to be that it was easier to placate the fanatics like the settlement nut bars and religious fanatics inside Israel instead – that is after all how Likud keeps getting into government.
     • SPC 1.1.1

       26 October 2023 at 8:53 am

       My reply was made to inform people as to the detail of our (apparently bi-partisan – National and Labour) diplomatic response.

       Your thinking is just as lazy as that of Israelis.

       I presume that is what passes for a "collective" dismissal of other … . Accusing people of being lazy in their thinking, is as risible as talking about tax cuts for hardworking New Zealanders – it is of that ilk.

       Given the only opine I offered was this

       That is not the intent – they want Hamas out and replaced as governing agency there.

       Peace is better than war, but appeasement (of Iran) does not guarantee peace – which is why Saudi Arabia was prepared to buy American security, by doing a deal with Israel (despite the nature of its current government).

       most of your response was a manufacturing of a strawman. So it's a bit pointless for me to respond to any of it – given your current predilection to look for someone to fight on the issue.

       The international community should get directly involved in enforcing a solution

       Like in the Ukraine and Kashmir (contested between Pakistan and India and now direct Indian rule to manage the local Moslem majority) or West Papua? Or in nations where the indigenous people ask for their UN recognised rights?

       The opportunity for the international community to get involved will come soon enough. The Israelis want either the UN or the PA to run Gaza (which will require a rebuild).
     • lprent 1.1.2

       26 October 2023 at 9:16 am

       Just to give a point to how stupid the current Israeli government is being at present.

       1. Their avowed intent is remove Hamas from power in Gaza.
       2. They do so not to occupy it in the longer term, but to withdraw and close the border completely – in violation of their international obligations as occupier and their insistence of maintaining a blockade of air, seas, and even land routes.
       3. Presumably if Israel is not going to murder all of the residents of Gaza, there will be some form of government required for Gaza.
       4. Currently the only realistic alternative would be the Palestinian Authority (PA) who purportedly govern the West Bank.
       5. At present the Israeli government is also withholding the taxes that they collect on behalf of the PA, to the PA.
       6. Which means that the PA will not be able to pay their own security staff, releasing a large number of well armed and trained young staff of military potential probably with weapons into the West Bank with more of a grudge against both the Israeli government and PA.

       This article from The Economist says it all "Can the Palestinian Authority control Gaza if Hamas is ousted? It may be lucky to keep control of the West Bank by the end of this war"

       As israeli troops prepare to invade Gaza, one question keeps coming up: who should take control of it after they have rooted out Hamas—if, indeed, they are able to do so? Many, especially Israel’s allies, are looking to the Palestinian Authority (pa), which was thrown out of Gaza by Hamas almost two years after Israel withdrew its troops and dismantled its settlements there in 2005. But the pa seems to be in no position to take charge of the coastal enclave. In fact there are no guarantees that by the end of this war it will even be in control of Ramallah, the de facto capital city of the West Bank.

       Partly because it has been unable to protect Palestinian civilians on the West Bank from attacks by Israeli settlers or halt the expansion of Israeli settlements, the pa has lost control of security in swathes of the West Bank to militant groups such as Kata’ib Jenin and the Lions’ Den in Nablus in recent years. The slaughter of 1,400 Israelis by Hamas on October 7th, Israel’s subsequent bombardment of Hamas in Gaza, and a sharp increase in attacks by settlers have all pushed it into an even more precarious position.

       What has been noticeable in these attacks is that either the IDF has lost control of its soldiers in the West Bank or that IDF is complicit in some kind of ethnic cleaning policy. Most of the reported examples have IDF soldiers either standing aside as armed settlers unlawfully attack unarmed civilians to push them off land, or the soldiers actually assist.

       As the war in Gaza goes on, along with the flow of pictures coming out of the enclave that show civilians killed by Israel’s bombing, Hamas’s popularity appears to be increasing, while the pa’s seems to be plummeting. When news broke of an explosion at Gaza’s Ahli Arab hospital, furious crowds thronged into the streets of the West Bank. Their anger was not, however, directed at Israel, which most Palestinians believe bombed the hospital. (A more likely explanation for the blast, according to independent analysts and Western intelligence agencies, is that it was caused by a misfired rocket launched from Gaza by Islamic Jihad, another Palestinian militant group.) Instead anger was directed at the pa. Hundreds marched on Mr Abbas’s presidential compound in Ramallah. In an echo of the protests that rocked Arab countries and toppled governments in 2011, many chanted: “The people want the fall of the president.”

       The pa’s legitimacy crisis is being intensified by a financial one. Although the pa has not been able to evolve into an independent Palestinian state, many Palestinians accept it simply as a source of salaries and public-sector work. Yet it seems it may not be able to provide even these. In the next few weeks the pa is scheduled to pay public-sector salaries, including the wages of 34,000 members of the Palestinian Security Forces. But it can afford to pay less than 50% of this month’s wage bill, according to one senior pa official, who added that, even before the current war in Gaza, Israel was withholding customs revenues which it is obliged to hand over. This cash crunch is likely to become more acute as a result of the war because Israel has closed its borders to the thousands of West Bank Palestinians who usually work in Israel and pay income taxes to the pa.

       Members of pa’s security forces are already accused by friends and family of being proxies for Israel’s occupation of the West Bank. In many cases, the only thing that keeps them from leaving their posts is their monthly pay-cheque. The pa has weathered previous financial storms and paid salaries late, or been unable to pay them in full, in the past. But the latest projected pay cut is far larger. If it goes ahead, tens of thousands of young men in the pa’s police and national security forces may not show up to work. Some would be ripe recruits for other armed groups in the West Bank including Hamas and Islamist Jihad, the group that may have been responsible for the hospital blast in Gaza. In any case, it is hard to see how unpopular and unpaid security forces will stand their ground if Palestinians try to sack the presidential palace. “The Palestinian public is reaching a boiling point and an explosion against the authority,” says Amjad Bashqar, a Hamas official in Nablus. “The only thing delaying it is our focus on the resistance [against Israel]”.

       What are those complete fuckwits in the Israeli 'war cabinet' thinking? If they are thinking at all.

       It sounds like they are deliberately trying to make sure that the Fatah who run the PA get replaced by groups who are more extreme than Hamas. That both Gaza and the West Bank will be uncontrollable without considerable indiscriminate targeting of civilians.

       I can't see that they have any interest in 'peace'.
2. lprent 2

   26 October 2023 at 7:53 am

   Agreed.

   Quite simply Israel and the international community generally have screwed up badly since 1990s about the Palestine. Once Israel's military and diplomatic borders were reasonably secure, then there was simply no remaining excuse not to deal with the displaced results of previous ethnic cleansing.

   Either the two state solution should have been implemented properly with clear boundaries and absolutely no Israeli settlement in Gaza and the West Bank, or the state of Israel should have formally annexed the occupied territories and made full citizens of the Palestinians and their diaspora.

   Either solution would have been hard for the citizens of Israel who were wedded to the concept of Jewish religious / ethnic state. But it would have been less of an security and economic risk than running their current occupations, border issues against irregulars, regular bombing campaigns against civilians in Gaza, fostering fanatics and the risk of a massacre as happened a few weeks ago.

   The reason and responsibility for the Hamas raid can primarily be laid directly at the feet of Likud and Benjamin Netanyahu. As a person and as a party since before 1995 and the assassination of Rabin, they have deliberately used the plight and danger from the continued stateless dispossession of Palestinians as a wedge issue in Israeli politics. In particular with their support of seizures of the remaining West Bank land that was meant to form the basis of a two state solution.

   The short-sighted citizens of Israel, who kept voting for the Likud policy of having no resolution of this fundamental problem in the Palestine, carry much of the blame for the inevitable massacre of their fellow citizens. So do the nations like the US, UK, Aussie, us, and others for allowing this idiotic state of affairs to continue.

   Killing the civilians and their homes in Gaza (as the IDF is currently doing with aircraft, missiles and artillery), arresting and imprisoning West Bank children, or starving the population of Gaza in over-sized concentration camp / ghetto does absolutely nothing to reduce the probability of future massacres on either side.

   The international community should get directly involved in enforcing a solution for the Palestine. It caused the problem with the unfortunate experiment of the UN decisions of 1948 and subsequent dithering. It isn't getting any better. It is likely to get a lot worse as Israel's citizens vote for more of their governments solutions that they are currently applying – apartheid, collective punishment, the use of concentration camps, ghettos, and a quite apparent tendency to viewing their subjected Palestinian (and Arab citizens) as being sub-humans.

   To me it is really starting to get hard see the differences between Israeli and Nazi regimes. Their current attack on Gaza looks it was learnt from the Nazi attack on the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943. All it lacks is a Treblinka and the "final solution" – but I am sure that Likud and the religous right in Israel have ideas in that direction.
   • Tiger Mountain 2.1

     26 October 2023 at 8:07 am

     Eloquently, and humanely put lprent.

     Someone surely in the international community has to attempt to breach the Gaza blockade and deliver fuel at least to get hospitals and desalination running again. ICU patients and babies in incubators are dying. No pain relief, no bandages, no chance of surgery for injured now–simply horrific.

     How much more blood does the Israeli State and Military want? Rare is the day that I agree 100% with lprent, but today is that day!
     • lprent 2.1.1

       26 October 2023 at 10:30 am

       Someone surely in the international community has to attempt to breach the Gaza blockade and deliver fuel at least to get hospitals and desalination running again.

       There is no realistic way to do that unless the US Navy gets involved in holding off the continued airspace violations from IDF air force and missiles, and probably the missiles launched from Gaza at Israel.

       Plus it'd need to issues warnings to or attacks Israeli navy operations in Gaza waters maintaining their decades old sea blockade.

       No-one else in the region has the technical capability to prevent assured destruction of aircraft and sinking or capture of vessels.

       The IDF has been attacked around the southern roads since Hamas launched their attack, and increasingly more since. Which is a bit weird logically since they issued orders to Gaza civilians to move to the south, and then started to increase their bombardment in that region. I haven't seen any particular IDF explanation (or excuse) for that strategic decision.

       Egypt has (rightly) been constraining the trucks from going through the border unless the road is passable and that the Israeli's aren't in the process of bombarding south Gaza. They also inspect all cargo going in either at the Rafah crossing for weapons as they have done for at least a decade with an agreement with Israel after they pulled out of Gaza. The alternative would be that Israel would close the roads by bombardment.

       Currently they are also checking for fuel as well which is logical as many weapons can be made with any fuel. The problem is that the fuel is also needed for water pumps and desalination, power generation, and especially for hospitals. When the fuel inside Gaza is exhausted then the supply operation gets a lot more complex and larger because water will have to be trucked in.

       The 54 trucks that have gone through so far have been explained as being a trial with the Red Crescent to test procedures. The numbers are meant to increase, however so far there appears to be no signs that is happening.

       If you read the Israeli online propaganda 'news', they report Israeli spokes person assurances that there is plenty of food and water in (presumably) southern Gaza. Which is not what is being reported by anyone in Gaza that I can see from social media, aid agencies or credible social media accounts.

       It sounds like the massive Israeli ordered population shift from north to south Gaza has left south Gaza as extremely limited on both food and water. The UN estimates that at least a 100 trucks a day are required. Currently the trucks seem to be averaging less than 10 a day. Which means that any existing food and water stocks are getting depleted rapidly even when you don't consider the supply chain disruptions from the IDF attempting to hit Hamas position in the south and causing destruction and casualties over wider areas.
       • Belladonna 2.1.1.1

         26 October 2023 at 10:53 am

         There is no realistic way to do that unless the US Navy gets involved in holding off the continued airspace violations from IDF air force and missiles, and probably the missiles launched from Gaza at Israel.

         I believe that there is zero chance of the US militarily intervening in Gaza.

         There is just no win for them in this. And their military policy has been to disengage from the Middle East. They've also got very tired of being the world's policemen, while gaining opprobrium from the Western liberal elites for doing so.

         The exception would be to retrieve American hostages. A limited goal, involving intelligence operations to pinpoint hostages, and marine forces on the ground to extract them.
         • SPC 2.1.1.1.1

           26 October 2023 at 11:25 am

           Over half of the hostages in Gaza are foreigners.
           • Belladonna 2.1.1.1.1.1

             26 October 2023 at 12:23 pm

             I'd only seen around 20 or so Americans reported

             https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/what-do-we-now-about-hamas-hostages-2023-10-19/

             US only care about American hostages. I mean, they'd rescue others if they were in the same compound, but wouldn't go looking for them. They might act on behalf of their alliance buddies (especially UK and Australia) – if they were officially requested to do so. Still a pinpoint security operation, rather than a military intervention.

             ATM, the US have tasked 2 carrier groups to the Middle East – but mostly as a deterrent (ensuring other countries don't take the opportunity to expand the war).
             They've also moved (or are in the process of moving) 3 marine carriers – which are equipped for air or amphibious landings – into easy 'on call' positions.

             I'd say this is in preparation for intelligence on the location of hostages – ready for a limited-objective retrieval operation.

             https://abcnews.go.com/International/us-militarys-moves-including-2000-marines-play-israel/story?id=104047399

             While they might hope for a diplomatically negotiated release of hostages – they’re preparing for this to fall over.
   • Dennis Frank 2.2

     26 October 2023 at 9:12 am

     “The international community should get directly involved in enforcing a solution for the Palestine.”

     Yeah, but how? A peace conference would be a novel way of proceeding, inasmuch as it has been a unused method for so long. Everyone defaults to Biden when the UN chief seems incapable, yet his support of Israel makes him unable to triangulate credibly. Peacemaking is an art so why would anyone expect establishment leaders to demonstrate competence?

     Zionism presumes the right of dispossessed ethnicity, yet implementation denied that right to the Palestinians, so either that right isn't recognised in international law or such law is unenforceable. Peaceful co-existence requires mutually-recognised habitation rights for both Israelis and Palestinians – regardless of boundaries.

     So a peace conference would have to include international law experts as advisors, and identify a consensual basis upon which to proceed, and articulate that in its final agreement as a proposal for UN adoption. Indigenous rights advocates seem worth including but I would direct them to create a generic formulation first. General principles are usually required to clarify complexity.

     Alexander the Great whacked the Gordian Knot, and complex situations do require a similar decisive cut through.
     • Belladonna 2.2.1

       26 October 2023 at 10:46 am

       Peaceful co-existence requires mutually-recognised habitation rights for both Israelis and Palestinians – regardless of boundaries.

       And there's the rub. At least one side (arguably both sides) does not regard the other as having habitation rights.

       Until you can shift that – I don't see any peace process involving a two state solution having a chance of working.

       It doesn't matter how many international lawyers and experts are involved, if the people on the ground don't agree with them.

       BTW I really don't think that you're recommending Alexander's solution to problems (invade everyone, kill off the local leadership, die young and leave a legacy of civil war)
       • lprent 2.2.1.1

         26 October 2023 at 11:18 am

         Until you can shift that – I don't see any peace process involving a two state solution having a chance of working.

         Yep. That is why I think that the two-state solution just isn't viable. No-one will accept it – especially on the side with most of the weapons – Israel. The settler movement and religious orientated think that they own it by right of previous occupation about 2000 years ago. Which is simply insane.

         By comparison the Palestinian insurgency is way more rational regardless how much it upsets the Israeli government who seem to be intent on the bully philosophy of ‘we won, you lost, could you please stop fighting’ that seems to guide their continual violations of any peace settlements.

         Make it a single state with a more rational political system like MMP. Put an occupation force in (thankless duty) to control all of the nut bars and to control the internal security forces. Let them work it out for a couple of decades via the courts and politics, and see if that works out in civilising the place.

         Looking back, there was less of an issue when the British occupied the place back in the 1940s. Maybe that will stop this pissant region continuously disrupting the rest of the world with conflicts that keep overflowing their borders.
         • Belladonna 2.2.1.1.1

           26 October 2023 at 12:00 pm

           Put an occupation force in (thankless duty) to control all of the nut bars and to control the internal security forces.

           Heaven's yes – a truly thankless task. I'm assuming you're thinking of forces under the UN Peacekeeping mandate.

           I seriously doubt that any of the major players are going to sign up for it. Especially when both sides (Israel during the British administration, and Hamas now) have an extensive history of attacking what they see as occupying forces.
           • lprent 2.2.1.1.1.1

             26 October 2023 at 12:18 pm

             Especially when both sides (Israel during the British administration, and Hamas now) have an extensive history of attacking what they see as occupying forces.

             Palestinians (or Arabs) as they were referred to at the time, also made a sport of attacking the British occupation from the time of the mandate. They just did it less often and as flamboyantly than the Irgun et al.

             the UN Peacekeeping mandate.

             Peacekeeping with a full mandate to defend, a full load out of weapons and munitions, right to pursue, and right to imprison. More akin to the British occupation in the troubles but with less of a partisan bias. In other words with means to force peace.

             Attacking an occupation is, in my view, a more healthy activity than the bickering and inept strategies that both sides have been using for the last 70 odd years. But mostly it would be preferable to both sides spreading their stupid conflict all over the damn place. Besides getting shot at when provoked by an occupation force armed to the teeth will be a healthy for both sides. They may even find a common cause.
             • Belladonna …

               26 October 2023 at 12:27 pm

               Tough on the common cause being shot at. I doubt there would be many volunteers.

               I’m also less-than-confident that the UN would be able to get those elements written into the peacekeeping force mandate. Too many states would be worried that it could be deployed against them.
               • lprent …

                 26 October 2023 at 8:56 pm

                 Yeah. The alternative is to have Israel continue working towards whatever their final solution is – which is likely to be whatever the settlers want. Those people are really bat shit crazy.

                 Meanwhile have Hamas (or whatever replaces them and the Fatah) keep doing attacks. Meanwhile Palestinian kids throw rocks and get imprisoned for years to provide the shock troops for a later cycle.

                 Been watching it for most of my life. In a lot of ways a more humane solution to remove the dispute is probably to kick everyone out into a diaspora and seed the whole area with long-life radioactive dust.

                 Be tough on the people who are actually religious and understand and read their religious philosophy. But they can visit in radiation proof suits.
3. SPC 3

   26 October 2023 at 10:09 am

   Russia and China vetoed on Wednesday a U.S.-drafted U.N. Security Council resolution on the war between Israel and Palestinian militants Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

   The draft aimed to address a worsening humanitarian crisis in Gaza, calling for pauses the violence to allow aid access. The United Arab Emirates also voted no, while 10 members voted in favor and two abstained.

   https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-china-veto-us-push-un-action-israel-gaza-2023-10-25/
   • lprent 3.1

     26 October 2023 at 11:06 am

     Interesting that you to quote just one of the resolutions. So very very selective and hypocritical of you.

     https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/25/what-to-know-about-un-draft-resolutions-on-the-israel-hamas-war-so-far

     The Russians put one up on the 16th. The UK, US, France and Jaapn voted against. The resolution did not name or condemn Hamas.

     Brazilians put up one on 18th. It passed but the the US vetoed – reason was that the resolution did not mention Israel’s right of self-defence.

     The US resolution was not for a ceasefire, just for a pause. Which I suspect that was the main reason that got vetoed.

     Interestingly it calls for a inherent right for self-defence. Which is kind of weird. Gaza is probably still legally held by Israel by its effective occupation of Gaza. Gaza isn't technically part of any recognised state – the status of Palestine being rather ambiguous, and the status of Gaza being even more ambiguous.

     Israel is legally claiming that occupation right when it maintains a effective air, sea and land control of all imports and exports of the Gaza strip.

     In effect the US resolution was claiming a right of self-defence by Israel against part of the area that Israel also claims to effectively occupies and controls. It is a logically flawed concept.

     A second resolution was put up by the Russians which

     Russian draft #UNSC resolution on #Gaza and #Israel is quite cunningly designed to look like a compromise text (adapting paras from Brazil and U.S. drafts) while including one word "ceasefire" that the U.S. has explicitly rejected.

     It didn't get enough votes to pass, but would have been vetoed anyway because the US and UK (both security council members) both voted against.
     • SPC 3.1.1

       26 October 2023 at 11:20 am

       So very very selective and hypocritical of you.

       It was the one related to our own diplomatic position, which is called being on thread topic.

       At least you are being consistent, making personal attacks against others on this topic.
       • lprent 3.1.1.1

         26 October 2023 at 11:37 am

         I always make personal attacks on bad behaviour. It was meant as a educational barb. I find that there is way less repeated behaviour when the objection to it is personal.

         You'll no doubt be aware that I really have a irritated thing about selective quoting. It also applies to selective linking on wider topic. That is because it is a such a dumbarse classic misinformation tactic. I get irritated when I have to dig into the net to write a clear and substantive counter comment.

         I also have a habit of writing pretty exhaustive comments that clearly distinguish between my opinions, what I think of are facts (and why), and links and quotes that illustrate why.

         I'm also used to people whining like a child that they are victim when they are called out . Also people who avoid actually dealing with the substance of my long replies by playing the victim. I tend to view that as a symptom of someone who is too lazy to argue their point, or who simply doesn't have a valid point.

         I guess that is you huh?
         • SPC 3.1.1.1.1

           26 October 2023 at 12:47 pm

           Na, I'd say our bad behaviour radars are not in sync …and I am fine with mine.

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