Why you should vote Labour this election

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, August 11th, 2020 - 146 comments
Categories: covid-19, economy, election 2020, grant robertson, health, jacinda ardern, jobs - Tags:

Reason 1: Prime Minister Ardern

Jacinda Ardern. We have the best crisis manager in the world, and pretty much the entire country agrees Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has done and will continue to do an astounding job. No one else comes close. We need a strong and good leader, and Labour has the best.

Reason 2: Minister of Finance Grant Robertson

Most of us still have a job because of his policy interventions. Food on the table. Shoes for the kids. That’s meant $30 billion of support and programmes that will continue to roll out for years. He’s made the scale of intervention that only Labour are practised at delivering and he’s good at it. Check the results:

  • Retail spending remains resilient even as income support numbers grow.
  • Job numbers have recovered even if not to pre-Covid levels. We’re still confident enough to spend.
  • Retail card spending has remained above 2019 levels for the past two months.
  • Supermarkets, liquor stores and pharmacies have been pumping even during the strictest Alert Levels in New Zealand. Total electronic card spending in that week was up 0.6% on the same time last year.

NZ Weekly electronic card spending for the last 2020 Quarter.

Unemployment is actually holding ok. Every single roading and construction contractor I can see across our horizon is bursting at the seams and will re-train.

As we did in the 1930s, we are going to literally re-build this country out of recession.

Ardern and Robertson are two good reasons all by themselves to vote Labour.

Reason 3: We Feel Safe

We feel safe on average because our houses feel safe. Mortgagee sales are not rising. Renters are now better protected following the recently-passed legislation. New home consents are up with a record number of consents for townhouses, flats, and units. House prices are holding up – meaning most of New Zealand’s wealth is holding up (although there’s some signs of a levelling off in sales).

Mortgage deferral requests peaked in April. Missed payments on consumer loans are actually just fine. So no, there is no September negative tsunami – though businesses are hurting.

Figure 4: Total loan exposure

Source: RBNZ

Reason 4: We Feel Gratitude and Hope

Most of us know people in Australia, and they are now a damaged and divided country. We don’t have that. We don’t have community transmission of Covid-19. Haven’t had for 100 days. Which is like being grateful for World War Z not breaking out – our new global reality.

For the first time in decades our people are begging to come home: we are going to end up from Covid-19 with fewer cheap-labour foreigners and more New Zealand citizens than we’ve ever had. Our children and grandchildren want to be here with us. Gratitude from all those returning or intending to, combined with safety, is an excellent reason to return a government.

Countries across the Pacific are begging us to reconnect. Not too many others can say that.

On top of that, there’s a real economic future too. Exports are up for the year and imports are down.

For the June 2020 year, goods exports rose 1.4%, while imports fell 4.6%, resulting in a deficit for the year ending June of $1.2 billion (Figure 3). This deficit would have been even smaller (around $800 million) were it not for the arrival of HMNZS Aotearoa. Now sure, it won’t last like this – but it’s a better place in which to face a global recession.

The world is so damaged that a future here looks believable, and necessary.

Even that maxim from Prime Minister Norman Kirk needs changing:

Basically there are four things that matter to people: they have to have somewhere to live, they have to have food to eat, they have to have clothing to wear, and they have to have something to hope for.”

In this new world-altering crisis, Labour has responded with a less individualistic and more collective approach for the times:

Someone to lead us, someone to feed us, somewhere to be safe, and gratitude in our common future.”

Ardern + Robertson + Safety + Gratitude + Hope

Labour – and it’s 90% Labour frankly over the last 3 years – have delivered like the Whittaker’s ad, “good, honest government”. It tastes good, is well packaged, is home grown, has a great range of flavours, is increasingly popular, gives its profits back locally, and only costs fractionally more than the bland alternative. That’s a strong brand.

So when you rock up to the polling booth in a few weeks, forget the sympathy votes for the coulda’s and the shoulda’s, set aside the sighing about the transformational this and the whataboutthat’s.

This is where we are, and it’s one of the very best places on earth to be.

To not put too fine a point on it, Labour stopped us from stumbling and pulls us upright and impels us: “Let’s keep moving.”

Return Labour to leadership by voting two ticks for the Labour Party.

146 comments on “Why you should vote Labour this election ”

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  1. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 1
    11 August 2020 at 7:35 am

    While I don't disagree with anything you've said, Ad, I will still be giving my party vote to the Greens – in the expectation that a Labour-Greens government will be further 'left' than just a Labour one,

    Electorate vote for Duncan Webb.

    • Bearded Git 1.1
      11 August 2020 at 9:30 am

      +1000 Veitchy

    • Enough is Enough 1.2
      11 August 2020 at 2:31 pm

      I can't for the life of me see how anyone who is real about wanting reform and the end of Roger Douglas' neo-liberal wet dream, will vote for any party other than the Greens.

      Only the Green Party is promising transformational change.

  2. Sacha 2
    11 August 2020 at 7:42 am

    It's as if the only good things the last government did were because of one party..

  3. Barfly 3
    11 August 2020 at 7:56 am

    I feel I am a natural Labour voter however I will likely be voting Green to try and help nudge Labour leftward

    • Muttonbird 3.1
      11 August 2020 at 8:10 am

      This.

      Labour's move to the centre giving room to the Greens is either a carefully orchestrated collaborative strategy, or Labour has simply caught the centrist disease of being too scared to do anything.

      • I Feel Love 3.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 8:23 am

        Pretty safe Labour electorate seat here, so will vote for her, but party vote Green, same as last time.

  4. Dennis Frank 4
    11 August 2020 at 8:08 am

    Labour's perennial problem is that it can never agree on we're we ought to head. Your tacit acknowledgment is evident in your framing: no viable pathway to the future being signalled. Managing the status quo just seems clueless and inadequate.

    • Muttonbird 4.1
      11 August 2020 at 8:11 am

      No, as a self-declared centrist, that's your problem.

      • Dennis Frank 4.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 8:24 am

        No, I'm not involved with them – never have been. I'm okay with Jacinda as PM for now. She took an imaginative approach to the coalition design, shows she can do lateral thinking. Done it once, you can do it again.

        I was referring to Labour as party and political brand. They're in dire need of comprehension of what trajectory Aotearoa ought to be on, now that neoliberalism is dead in the water…

      • mauī 4.1.2
        11 August 2020 at 9:12 am

        No, Dennis and I are both former Greens.

        • Muttonbird 4.1.2.1
          11 August 2020 at 9:46 am

          Why former?

        • Dennis Frank 4.1.2.2
          11 August 2020 at 10:09 am

          Actually I'm still a GP member, second time round, five years into that stint. But the younger generations of Greens seem to lack radical spine, so I may jump the ship at next renewal.

          The thing about centrism is that it gives you leverage on both partisan groups if you do it right. However there's more to politics than being sensible – you must provide a viable path to the future as well. So, while I acknowledge that the GP does so, I get impatient with their timidity.

          • Descendant Of Smith 4.1.2.2.1
            11 August 2020 at 5:33 pm

            "But the younger generations of Greens seem to lack radical spine"

            As do the younger unionists. The notion of going on strike and without pay is so foreign to them it isn't funny. They lie in bed with management and often are part of their group think.

    • Tricledrown 4.2
      11 August 2020 at 9:56 am

      As if any govt can remember John Key saying we will just have to muddle through the GFC.the $66 billion insurance payout plus the $20 billion govt input from the Canterbury earthquakes kept our economy at the top of the OECD.
      This setback is much worse and needs a much bigger response as is happening.

      Given the Crisis the only option is to print money,build houses do infrastructure,educate the work force.

      Plant a billion tree's ie Kiangaroa. Similar to the 1930's it worked then ,the Social Credit /Labour coalition brought our country out of the depression faster than any other country.

      • Gerald Stewart 4.2.1
        11 August 2020 at 7:23 pm

        clark and cullen in 2008 with their total mismanagement of the New Zealand economy, caused us to be one of the first, if not the first country in the world to go into recession, And you sadsacks, or should I say, Bewildered, want the good people of New Zealand to vote these children in to try and get us out of this mess that ardern, our appointed prime minister, got us into. Business Experience, Peeling spuds at a fish and chip shop, WOW, Just what we need.

        [Letting this through because I am pretty sure it is an attempt at satire to show how weird things get in rwnj land. Although I am not certain … MS]

        [lprent: Just looks like a dumb 2008 style troll to me. I’d already killed a first comment because it was just stupid (new commenters have to get a single comment approved by a moderator before they get auto-publish).

        I’d suggest keep in “approve with probation” until we see some signs that don’t indicate a solid rock head parroting antique slogans that were stupid and old when I was a kid. But I suspect that you just want him around for the comedic effect. The straight Bob Newhart of 2020. ]

        • Paddington 4.2.1.1
          11 August 2020 at 10:43 pm

          NZ was heading towards recession before the effects of the GFC hit, that is correct, but your overall characterisation of Cullen's time as Finance Minister is misleading. Cullen followed a broadly market economic approach, one that has served this country well. That produced growth, and enabled the country to continue the recution of debt to GDP that had started during the National government of the 1990's. Unfortunately Cullen lost the plot somewhat around 2005. He was too permissive when it came to the 2005 lolly scramble Clark used to buy that election (ineterst free student loans), and then failed to recognise that workers needed tax relief to soften the economic downturn in 2007. So not a total success, but not as bad as you paint it.

          • Stuart Munro 4.2.1.1.1
            11 August 2020 at 11:05 pm

            needed tax relief to soften the economic downturn

            Tax breaks are among the least effective stimulus measures, so unlikely to have been needed eh.

            • Paddington 4.2.1.1.1.1
              11 August 2020 at 11:59 pm

              And yet tax cuts were an important part of the governments successful response to the GFC.

              • Stuart Munro …
                12 August 2020 at 7:41 am

                You're referring to the Key government's response? We recovered slower than other nations because of the austerity. The tax cuts were about rewarding donors, not allowing economic recovery – for that we got uncontrolled immigration and property price inflation put on the books as "growth".

                • Paddington …
                  12 August 2020 at 1:31 pm

                  "We recovered slower than other nations because of the austerity. "

                  There was no 'austerity'. What country were you living in? NZ maintained high levels of social spending, and managed to eliminate what had been forecast as several years of deficits. That was achieved by economic growth, that was due, at least in part, to tax cuts.

                  NZ went into recession earlier (under Cullen) and came out earlier (under English) than many other countries. This isn't controversial. It isn’t necesseraily a judgement of the two policy platforms. It’s just the way it is.

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    12 August 2020 at 1:42 pm

                    There was no 'austerity'. What country were you living in?

                    Not on planet Key evidently.

                    Cuts to hospital spending, clawbacks on Christchurch earthquake claims, sell downs of public housing – these were austerity measures. But perhaps you were insulated from such things.

  5. OnceWasTim 5
    11 August 2020 at 8:14 am

    Ditto 1, 2 and 3 above. And I'll be party voting Green after a lifetime of supporting Labour. Gratitude and Hope sure. And most of your other reasons, but on the flipside, comfyness and complacency among a number of Labour politicians might not be such a good thing in a fast changing Whurl, and there's been a bit of 'do nothing' in some portfolios where things cudda shudda wudda happened. (2/3 tier beneficiaries; treatment of immigrants and exploitation of workers; Oranga Tamariki; Corrections; NZTA ….. )

    Unfortunately, Little, Woods, Hipkins, Robertson (to a degree), and of course JA can't do it all

    • tc 5.1
      11 August 2020 at 9:46 am

      Agreed. Media needs an overhaul. Radio rantland and grannys incendiary angles should carry consequences.

      Tvnz/rnz are underutilized public assets to inform and help drive the content game.

  6. Darien Fenton 6
    11 August 2020 at 8:18 am

    Theres always those who think voting Green will "nudge Labour leftwards". There's plenty of left policy from Labour and the Greens don't have a monopoly on that. I just want to see the "handbrake" removed.

    • Sacha 6.1
      11 August 2020 at 8:21 am

      The accelerator works the same way the handbrake does. The left-leaning MPs within Labour's broad church can benefit from support outside their own caucus.

  7. Stuart Munro 7
    11 August 2020 at 8:19 am

    I used to vote Labour, but they have made it very clear that they represent someone else.

  8. solkta 8
    11 August 2020 at 8:28 am

    Those sound like equally good reasons to party vote Green. You then get all that but more.

  9. Robert Guyton 9
    11 August 2020 at 8:32 am

    What's ahead can't be reliably known, imo, and therefore our leadership needs to be as nimble and imaginative as is possible. It's a big ask for any governance, but that's the measure I apply when it comes to choosing. I don't look at what is being promised, but at how creatively politicians and parties behave.
    Green.

  10. Brendan 10
    11 August 2020 at 8:48 am

    I’ve always voted Green and I see no reason to change. With swing voters pouring in from National like we haven’t seen in decades, if you are a progressive Labour voter, now is the time to strategically vote Green.

    • Bearded Git 10.1
      11 August 2020 at 9:33 am

      +1000 Brendan.

      Where is Labour's Wealth Tax to alleviate poverty and redistribute assets for a fairer society?

  11. Hunter Thompson II 11
    11 August 2020 at 8:51 am

    I consider an excellent reason to vote Labour (or Labour/Green) is to prevent Crusher and her crew from taking power and looking after their mates.

  12. Robert Guyton 12
    11 August 2020 at 8:58 am

    This:

    "The Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage today launched Te Mana o te Taiao, the Aotearoa New Zealand Biodiversity Strategy – a way forward that envisions Aotearoa New Zealand as a place where ecosystems are healthy and resilient, and people embrace the natural world."

    https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-strategy-ensure-nature-thrives

  13. anker 13
    11 August 2020 at 9:03 am

    Absolutely and 100% agree with this article. Labour all the way.

    We are in the best country to be in the world right now. And that is down to Jacinda….

    Ashleigh b gave the right advice, but likely across the world public servants gave same advice…………..Jacinda ran with it..

    Sorry, no vote from me for Greens. I want Labour to have free range to do their thing. I completely trust them. And I think Jacinda is the most competent leader we have likely seen or will ever see. Why risk her not getting in by voting for another party.

    • Bearded Git 13.1
      11 August 2020 at 9:34 am

      Remember Jacinda only became PM because of Green Party support.

      • Ad 13.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 10:04 am

        Greens enabled themselves to be taken for granted, and still do. At the coalition negotiations they were so far up Labour you could just see their sandals poking out.

        NZF got Ardern into power.

        • observer 13.1.1.1
          11 August 2020 at 10:12 am

          Of course the last sentence is correct, but why the gratuitous jabs at the Greens? They acted intelligently, in the interests of their voters and the country. They saw the coalition as a first step, and they were right. Now they want a much bigger step.

          If they had been obstructionist what would they have achieved?

          • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1.1
            11 August 2020 at 2:26 pm

            Now they want a much bigger step.

            Not a much bigger step – just another one. A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step but all the ones in between also need to be taken.

            • PaddyOT 13.1.1.1.1.1
              11 August 2020 at 2:51 pm

              Take big steps, farting around with little steps is cowardly for addressing a global mess.

              When we vote do we vote for the future we cannot see?
              How do we tell the story of something that hasn’t happened yet to motivate adopting radical change as a choice?
              Reflecting on " bouncing forward" and an inability to take a massive leap in throwing away the concepts of yesteryear. ( An Up Yours Collins on your blind, political campaign 'propoganda' and to the stagnation of ideas we all suffer from. )

              Our political parties cannot envisage the future, the long haul outcomes from radical change policies is not offered in election choices.

              " It’s almost as if we have collectively stopped believing that the future is going to happen, let alone that it could be better, in many ways, than the present…
              Alternative solutions are portrayed by media as "either impossibly impractical or a recipe for tyranny just reinforce the sense of futility"(of making giant leaps forward for the future.)
              "We have grown up bombarded with the message that there is no alternative to the crappy system that is destabilizing the planet and hoarding vast wealth at the top."

              "A Message From the Future With Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez congresswoman narrating:" Presented by The Intercept and Naomi Klein.
              https://youtu.be/d9uTH0iprVQArticle.
              https://theintercept.com/2019/04/17/green-new-deal-short-film-alexandria-ocasio-cortez/Inspired this video from JustSpeak NZ – voices of those with lived experiences in the NZ justice system.
              https://youtu.be/V9FN0-jUf_Uhttps://www.justspeak.org.nz/

              • Draco T Bastard …
                11 August 2020 at 5:24 pm

                Who said anything about little steps?

                Taking a big step has a high possibility of biting off more than you can chew.

                Yes, we need change but we still have to work with what we have which will only allow so much change at a time.

        • Dennis Frank 13.1.1.2
          11 August 2020 at 10:15 am

          Spot on. Lack of political nous is why the Greens have allowed themselves to be continually marginalised – however the election may change that.

        • Bearded Git 13.1.1.3
          11 August 2020 at 10:40 am

          Ad-have you seen the list of achievements by the Greens in this term?

          https://www.greens.org.nz/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImLHtldqR6wIVRbaWCh21tgnlEAAYASAAEgJoe_D_BwE

      • Just Is 13.1.2
        11 August 2020 at 10:09 am

        I see you fogot to mention NZF being the most influential party in the agreement, without them it wouldn't have happened.

  14. Jum 14
    11 August 2020 at 9:04 am

    No 5. Trust

    Calling out commenters and their dirty politics. It's not just the hoskings, joyces, keys and hootons spreading this swirling mass of garbage; they get so much behind the scenes support because there is so much to gain for those who don't like to share, but rather to take.

    So it's Time to throw Hoskings on the scrap heap not given 'a bone.'

    He is not up to date in his commenting or it can only be the dirty politics of mislead and undermine. It's a disgrace that the herald even allows him to regurgitate his nonsense. His information is old and was the first part of preparing to face down Covid 19. Steady ramping up to act against an unknown quantity. It was 'physical distancing' before going up to level 2. Quite different to coming back down to level 1 in a safer place in NZ.

    Muttonbird 5 is right about the PM commenting on his quote, but not to accept it but rather to call him out on his deliberate ruse to undermine her, when it was obvious they were discussing two different times, his pre-Covid 19 in March, with danger all around in NZ, hers up to date for now in NZ.

    Muttonbird 5 Open Mike

    10 August 2020 at 10:10 am

    Always good to throw Hoskings a bone every now and then, and today he got one:

    Hosking said he had watched (Ardern) on the campaign trail at the Grey Lynn farmers' market at the weekend and she hadn't been practising social distancing.

    "No, and nor do we ask anyone to continue practise social distancing because we are at level 1," she said.

    Hosking said he had seen a poster that encouraged social distancing at level 1.

    Ardern said at level 1, people had to wash hands, stay home if they were sick, and get advice from Healthline or their GP about being tested. Plus the restrictions at the border continued.

    She said she could not comment on the poster, "but we have never been encouraging social distancing at level 1".

    Now, it's fair to say none of us practice much social distancing at L1, although I do give people a wider berth than I used to, but this is a rare mistake from the PM and she should probably acknowledge it in some way.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12355032

    Reply

  15. trained ape 15
    11 August 2020 at 9:05 am

    Party vote GREEN to ensure they get over the 5% threshold. They deserve to get back into Parliament, backing Jacinda while keeping her, well, green.

  16. Red Blooded One 16
    11 August 2020 at 9:23 am

    Unless convinced otherwise, this Labour Party member in Northland plans to vote, Willow-Jean Prime for Electorate but will Party Vote Green. I want MMP to work, which means no party should govern alone, in my opinion.

  17. swordfish 17
    11 August 2020 at 9:28 am

    .
    Voted Lab 84-96, Alliance 99-02, Lab 05-14, strategically for the Greens 17.

    For the first time in my adult life I won't be setting foot in a polling booth this year. Can never bring myself to vote National (cognitive dissonance) but have zero intention of endorsing a Govt that has placed my very elderly parents – lifelong Labour voters & activists (as were my grandparents) – in an intolerable position, having to endure an extremely violent, intimidatory anti-social neighbour … with all the extreme stress & chronic sleep deprivation … for well over 2 years, with the tacit No Eviction policy, massively jeopardizing their safety, health & peace of mind. And I wonder how many other elderly people & other long-term residents in lower or mixed income suburbs have been sadistically thrown to the wolves in the same way by a group of self-interested Political Careerists who couldn’t give a flying shit.

    We feel safe on average because our houses feel safe.

    I mean …

    Labour – like the Greens – is slowly but surely transforming into an exclusive little Vanity Project for a deeply self-indulgent & narcissistic segment of Middle to Upper Middle-Class Professionals.
    .

    • Gabby 17.1
      11 August 2020 at 9:48 am

      Sounds like your local police are piss useless. No big surprise there.

    • Patricia Bremner 17.2
      11 August 2020 at 10:04 am

      That is a heartbreaking situation and the "unintended consequences of laws".

      With the right to make changes to their living accommodation, would that cover soundproofing?

      Perhaps that would be too expensive.

      Our son has a noisy neighbour who plays cultural music loudly. Son got ear pods and plays baroque music to get to sleep.

      This has helped him. He said getting sleep had helped greatly. Baroque music calms brain waves apparently.

  18. Tiger Mountain 18
    11 August 2020 at 9:29 am

    I thought ADVANTAGE was taking the piss again, like yesterdays “reefer madness” post advising a no vote in the Cannabis Referendum. But, today merely the obvious is being stated as regards who to vote for in the General Election.

    Labour Candidate Emily Henderson will get my electorate vote, and Greens the party vote–because no party, even Labour, should govern alone in an MMP system. And because the Greens need to be sure of getting back into Parliament. I have a residual suspicion that some Labour ‘tops’ are aligned with their National Counterparts, in having never truly accepted in their hearts the spirit of MMP. “one Labour to rule them all” might suit them just fine. Labour and National certainly support a neo liberal Parliamentary consensus.

    I have a large Jacinda sign at the front of my property on a prominent corner adjacent to a State Highway, thousands of vehicle movements per day. I count down the days to the return of a Labour led Govt with no NZ First, because it is indeed very good for the “many” during Covid. And in short order whether the Labour Caucus WILL die in a ditch for monetarism and the State Sector Act, and all the rest of “Roger’n’Ruth’s” toxic legacy will soon be revealed.

    • Patricia Bremner 18.1
      11 August 2020 at 10:21 am

      I also have a large Jacinda and Claire sign on our corner.

      Jacinda has announce "She will not let the economic scarring happen as has happened in past depressions"

      Those who are harking back to Ruth Richardson should be scared of Goldsmith and his 80 billion cuts!!

      • Bearded Git 18.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 10:48 am

        I attended a Labour Party candidate meeting this week-the candidate, Liam Wairepo, was excellent.

        But I have 2 reasons to vote Green:

        1. Their genuine green/environmental/climate change credentials compared with those of any other party-have a look at the Green Party site to see these.

        2. Because they are the only truly progressive party in NZ. Witness their excellent proposal for a Wealth Tax to alleviate poverty.

  19. Patricia Bremner 19
    11 August 2020 at 9:36 am

    I get that most who write here are Green voters, as I have noted and at times refuted the assertions made here about Labour.

    Jacinda has governed for all. That is what happens when a real Leader is in charge. You all complain about "The other lot looking after their mates", well Labour has not done that. She has governed for all citizens and residents.

    The important thing to me is a feeling of being in a "Team" being proud of what this Government achieved and more, HOW they achieved it. The hope for better, the communicated reasons for actions and the support of their partners in the coalition.

    The inclusive behaviour in the face of disasters, has given comfort and strength.

    The real strides in honoring the spirit of the language history and beliefs of the tangatawhenua.

    The changes in benefits allowances and laws to assist parents and children.

    The lack of Public Service and the manner of it is gradually being changed. Service is much more customer orientated, though progress slow.

    I agree with Green Policy, and see Labour and Greens as a great match.

    I want the Greens in parliament. But I also want a big enough swing to Labour to unseat some of the members in marginal seats. I want Jacinda to have a strong hand.

    So for all those reasons I will be voting Labour as will my husband and two children.

    "We don't know how lucky we are", but we are beginning to understand.

    • Descendant Of Smith 19.1
      11 August 2020 at 10:14 am

      Traditionally I'm a Labour voter but Labour has very few policies that fit in that paradigm:

      8 hour working day, 40 hour working week
      Time and a half for after hour and weekend work
      Cross employer industry wage rates
      Universal family benefit
      Higher tax on higher incomes
      Benefit rates same as NZS rates

      Jacinda has done a great job but at the moment the Greens are much closer to those things that I believe in.

    • Just Is 19.2
      11 August 2020 at 10:26 am

      Yes Patricia, some people have short memories, in 2008 Labour lost that election, not because of the great things they achieved, but because the media ascociated the then Greens policies with Labour, the anti smacking bill and the restricted shower water usage, both were seen as Labour policy and the electorate said NO, the rest is history, Key reigned for a decade.

      I don't want to see the same thing happen again.

      Greens can be voted in by their supporters, thats what democracy is.

      Labour are centrist, that's where the votes are, if you want to get elected you need policies that attract sufficient votes, otherwise, you risk having another party run the country, it's a bit of a tight rope

      • Descendant Of Smith 19.2.1
        11 August 2020 at 5:43 pm

        "the anti smacking bill "

        Seriously it wasn't an anti-smacking bill and the religious fundies who opposed it rabidly would not have voted Labour anyway.

        I don't know anyone who didn't understand what that bill was really about. You must think we are stupid to think that that was what influenced us to vote other than Labour. Even more so if you think the shower stuff was even remotely influential. Just cause National and the media put out this shit doesn't mean people believe it.

    • Draco T Bastard 19.3
      11 August 2020 at 1:07 pm

      I want the Greens in parliament. But I also want a big enough swing to Labour to unseat some of the members in marginal seats.

      If you want those then vote Green. Their policy of preferential voting will help bring it about.

      "We don't know how lucky we are", but we are beginning to understand.

      Are we though?

      Under Labour the capitalists don't get to exploit us as much as under National but is that really any better?

  20. Byd0nz 20
    11 August 2020 at 9:37 am

    i only vote to keep National out, so usually vote Labour as they are the most viable to do that. Labour was Left once upon a time, last being under Big Norm. The super scheme was very Left and insurance Co's were in danger of collapse, that is why IMO he was assasinated. How Left are folk these days. The pendulum of Politics would say Workers Revolution required.

    • Tony Veitch (not etc.) 20.1
      11 August 2020 at 11:48 am

      "that is why IMO he was assassinated."

      Norman Kirk was assassinated? Do tell.

      • Byd0nz 20.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 12:21 pm

        Many people thought that, some high in the Labour movement as well that I wont name, but David Lange made a big thing of having a public hospital check-up before visiting the US, no apple pie by the CIA for him. Funny how Douglass and Prebble had a complete change of belief after Kirk died (was killed). They switched from Left to hard Right after that. However I can only say that it is of my opinion that I agree with those that held that belief about assasination. Of all past PM's not much is spoken about Norman Kirk, why's that.

        • Anne 20.1.1.1
          12 August 2020 at 6:35 pm

          That's bullshit BydOnz.

          Norman Kirk had a serious heart problem that he successfully hid from both his family, political colleagues and the public. It caught up with him and he had a massive heart attack and died.

          Douglas and Prebble were captured by the neoliberal charlatans and I have no doubt there was an American link, but it happened 10 years after Kirk died.

  21. Andre 21
    11 August 2020 at 9:42 am

    I'm an environment-focused voter that ticked Green the last several elections, but I'm really struggling with choking down doing so again this time around, so I'll probably choke down a big dead rat and vote Labour instead.

    Only three of the top ten on the Greens list have any identifiable prior interest in the environment, the other seven appear to have other agendas that they are using Greens as a stalking horse for. That cloaked agenda thing is why I couldn't bring myself to vote Green during the noughties. Furthermore, their wealth tax proposal is such an incredibly ill-conceived proposal it really calls into question their ability to think through unintended consequences, and therefore their fitness to actually be in office.

    • Dennis Frank 21.1
      11 August 2020 at 10:27 am

      Only three of the top ten on the Greens list have any identifiable prior interest in the environment, the other seven appear to have other agendas that they are using Greens as a stalking horse for. That cloaked agenda thing is why I couldn't bring myself to vote Green during the noughties.

      I've long had a jaundiced view of that stuff, but always voted for them anyway out of tribal loyalty plus encouragement of the only sustainable option.

      Environmentalists aren't really wired to be politicians, unfortunately. So there's always a dearth of them in the candidate pool.

      Re wealth tax, I see it as alienating centrists, thus making it self-defeating, while liking the radicalism of it. I'm waiting for the missing million to vote Green because of it – which would prove me wrong and the Green leadership right!!

    • The Al1en 21.2
      11 August 2020 at 10:37 am

      Only three of the top ten on the Greens list have any identifiable prior interest in the environment

      So name the four (or more) in labours top ten who trump the greens three.

      • Andre 21.2.1
        11 August 2020 at 10:50 am

        *whooooosh*

        Reread my comment and see if you can work out what sticks in my craw even nastier than a lack of interest in the environment.

        • The Al1en 21.2.1.1
          11 August 2020 at 11:42 am

          There's no 'whoosh', as it's clear your antipathy to the greens policy of taxing the wealthy is the real reason you won't vote for them, but you did preface your post with being "an environment-focused voter" and went on to blame there being only three greens in their top ten having "any identifiable prior interest in the environment"

          If you don't want to vote green because they're more left than labour, just say so. No need to mask your decision and hide behind a nonsense statement, which you can disprove is nonsense, by doing as asked and naming those labour greens you identify more with.

      • Andre 21.3.1
        11 August 2020 at 12:27 pm

        They are cloaked by the large majority of people in the high positions on the list being focused on the issues at the end of that big long document very few people are going to read through.

        Those issues, while part of the Green "party mantra", really aren't actual green issues. But they are are being put in the shadows away from public attention by putting actual green issues at the front in the prominent position, but in fact very little of the incoming Greens' priority appears to be there on actual green issues. Unlike the last several terms.

        • solkta 21.3.1.1
          11 August 2020 at 12:36 pm

          The last eight pages of the forty seven page document are about:

          Clean energy

          Climate change

          Green cities and towns

          International trade

          Sustainable business

          Sustainable jobs

          The high-tech economy

          Transport

          Workplace rights

          The Greens have always understood that people are part of the environment. Nothing has changed. Nothing is hidden. If you don't like Green policy then fine but please don't talk bullshit about it.

          • Andre 21.3.1.1.1
            11 August 2020 at 12:45 pm

            I'm unenthused about most of the people that have been put in high list places and the aspects of Greens policies they are interested in and likely to focus on and put their energy towards, guessing from their histories. Which aren't actual green issues.

            edit: oh, and my mistake, I shouldn’t have said “at the end”, perhaps “buried away from prominent positioning” would have been better.

            • solkta 21.3.1.1.1.1
              11 August 2020 at 12:59 pm

              A party can only have one spokesperson on each policy area. The Green Caucus works as a group to advance Green policy. That caucus is accountable to the membership via the list ranking process, and the membership create the list strategically to cover all policy areas. All Green policy is available for people to read. As i say, if you no like the policy then fine..

            • Draco T Bastard 21.3.1.1.1.2
              11 August 2020 at 2:23 pm

              Can you point to, on this page, where any of the Greens policies are cloaked/buried?

              In the Greens its not the MPs that set policy but the members. Sure, I'd like to see a better way to decide and discuss those policies than the present system but nothing is perfect. The Green MPs are there to represent the will of the party to the best of their ability- not themselves. They're also there to do it effectively which is what we're really choosing when we select them.

  22. observer 22
    11 August 2020 at 9:56 am

    I don't think wagging a finger at the voters is a smart way to win support.

    I'm happy with Labour and the Greens. Fortunately, I base my voting decisions on what the government and parties are doing, not blog posts which assume a rational decision is merely "sympathy votes".

  23. Kay 23
    11 August 2020 at 10:03 am

    Nope. Labour lost my vote after 1999 when they made it quite clear they had no intention of reversing the damage done to beneficiaries by the Nats during the 90s, and indeed, proceeded to make things worse. There's been no great desire from them at all to change anything (no, $25/week and being a bit nicer doesn't cut it), so managing a pandemic well doesn't cancel that out.

    • Patricia Bremner 23.1
      11 August 2020 at 10:11 am

      So what do you believe Kay?

      • Kay 23.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 10:13 am

        Believe?

        • Patricia Bremner 23.1.1.1
          11 August 2020 at 10:25 am

          What do you believe a government should do for citizens? That should guide your vote.

          • Kay 23.1.1.1.1
            11 August 2020 at 10:41 am

            All citizens should be treated with dignity and respect, whatever their 'status'. Actually, there should be no 'status' but sadly the egalitarianism many still like to believe exists here, well…

            The people on the bottom rung in this country are also the disenfranchised, and for good reason, we haven't exactly been over run with politicians/political parties actually IN parliament shouting from the rooftops about our plight, yet alone activley doing anything about it when they've been in a position to. Greens are the closest we've ever come, but their role in the current government hasn't given them this much clout. I believe the only chance we have for even a slight improvement in our everyday existence is a Labour/Green coalition where the Green have more leverage. And perhaps if people can see there are actually politicians who represent them, it will encourage more to engage with voting in the future.

            Personally, for the first time ever I've been close to giving up voting altogether and now fully understand why some many others have. I live in a very safe Labour seat, and usually party Green and electorate labour, but this year I will probably just cast my party vote. I have other reasons right now to be beyond furious at the current Government and can't bring myself to vote for anyone connected to the main Coalition.

      • Rosemary McDonald 23.1.2
        11 August 2020 at 10:31 am

        "Belief"?

        This is not church. Not religion. Political parties are not cults. (Although that's debatable the way some adherents get all up in arms when not all bend the knee.)

        Its politics. And unfortunately it affects all of us and it is our duty to closely scrutinize ALL aspects of a government's performance before deciding whether or not we trust them for another three years.

        Kay is right. NZ Labour quite happily supported and entrenched the most diabolical doings of National in the 90s.

        "Fees free"…came close to acknowledging the obscenity that was the introduction of user pays tertiary education and the ladder puling- up that is the student loan outrage.

        Housing…the shameful debacle that was Kiwibuild and the continued trend to pretend that hosing the homeless in expensive motels is a fix.

        But the biggie is the big FU this lot gave to the recommendations of the Welfare Expert Advisory Group.

        Labour and National should team up…colour themselves purple and cease pretending they are fundamentally different.

        I won't be voting for either of them…

        • Just Is 23.1.2.1
          11 August 2020 at 10:45 am

          So Labours equally as bad as National then because they didn't make the Huge changes you wanted them to, and the only party that would have made those changes only gets less than 10% of the vote

          So which party is the most evil, the one that has demonstrated it has NZs best interests at heart and progressively works towards a fairer society or a Party that simply lies to get electeced and Deliberately makes things worse for those struggling.

          • weka 23.1.2.1.1
            11 August 2020 at 10:59 am

            that's confusing. The choice isn't Nat or Lab, it's Lab or Lab/Green.

            • Rosemary McDonald 23.1.2.1.1.1
              11 August 2020 at 11:42 am

              It's Green/Green…although I'm not sure if they're fielding a candidate in the North.

              I enjoyed an evening in the company of some of the NZ Outdoors Party, but common interests aside…I found the reaction of one candidate to my idea that a slight increase in tax would be sufficient to fund an equitable health and disability system a little sad.

              It appears that to most, the idea of raising taxes goes down like a cup of cold sick.

        • Kay 23.1.2.2
          11 August 2020 at 10:49 am

          But the biggie is the big FU this lot gave to the recommendations of the Welfare Expert Advisory Group.

          Yep

    • Just Is 23.2
      11 August 2020 at 10:31 am

      So Kay, how did 9yrs of Key go down with you then, lots of increases in beneficiaries, but zzilch increases of benefits.

      • Kay 23.2.1
        11 August 2020 at 10:46 am

        Just Is- try the 9 years of Ruthinasia as well. I've been on Invalids Benefit/Supported Living Payment an very long time now, so I'm pretty well qualified to know what's happened to us under 3 successive 3 term govt's and now the 1st term of this one, ie things have just got worse and worse. Always remember it's not just the unemployed and solo mums getting benefits. It's severely ill and disabled who are getting punished by our 'representatives', egged on by the media who do a great job of encouraging a good part of the population to support them.

      • weka 23.2.2
        11 August 2020 at 11:00 am

        That National are worse than Labour doesn't negate the harm that Labour have done to beneficiaries.

    • Peter 1 23.3
      11 August 2020 at 3:41 pm

      Could not have said it better myself.

  24. Just Is 24
    11 August 2020 at 10:37 am

    Basically, there are 2 reasons for voting.

    1) Vote for the Party you want in Parliament and running the country.

    2) Vote for the Party you want running the country so that the Party you don't want doest get the chance.

    The choices are simple.

    Splitting the vote could end up with unintended consequences

    • weka 24.1
      11 August 2020 at 11:08 am

      what unintended consequences?

      • Andre 24.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 11:18 am

        Well, in Auckland Central, vote splitting between Swarbrick and White could lead to Emma Mellow winning the seat for the Nats.

        Which would then lead to some other Nat like Harete Hipango or Paulo Garcia or Nick Smith not making it in off the list. That would be truly tragic.

  25. Pat 25
    11 August 2020 at 11:05 am

    Whomever we vote for, do we accept the fact that the outcome is democratic?

    Whatever our personal wants/desires the fact is governments follow public opinion, they are seldom leaders.

    The result will largely reflect what the majority of our fellow citizens desire and if we wish to live in a functioning (to whatever degree you believe it functions) society then there needs to be an acceptance that our personal views are not necessarily those of the majority….to do otherwise invites disfunction.

    Would suggest we are very careful what we wish for.

    • greywarshark 25.1
      11 August 2020 at 11:28 am

      Whatever our personal wants/desires the fact is governments follow public opinion, they are seldom leaders.

      That is true and yet one should ask what turns them to be leaders. They can decide to lead when there is some advantage to the Party and their financial supporters. Can't get past the truth of that when we have seen it happen with Labour in 1984 particularly.

      Democratic opinion and decision doesn't reflect deeply thought out positions taking everything into account, and wishing for a society operating effectively in its trading and distribution, with equity and equality. For most people the preceding sentence would be tl:dr.

      We saw the result of poorly informed Brits voting in Brexit, with a government that was prepared to lead all right, though it was only an indicative vote with a teeny, tiny majority. Was it within the margin of error etc?

      If something is said to be democratic that doesn't mean that it is pure, good and unsullied. The mind must be present at all times, checking and questioning when it is something important to numbers of people.

    • Draco T Bastard 25.2
      11 August 2020 at 12:59 pm

      Whatever our personal wants/desires the fact is governments follow public opinion, they are seldom leaders.

      And they won't follow when public opinion doesn't suit them – as we've seen time and time again.

      Democracy and capitalism are contrary to one another.

      • Pat 25.2.1
        11 August 2020 at 1:45 pm

        If you accept that elections in NZ are not corrupt or fixed and that the votes cast are allocated as they fall then the facility to remove those politicians/parties that behave so exists…whether a majority make use of that facility is the critical factor.

        Do you possit that if 60% of the population voted for say the Greens that policy would not change considerably?

        The onus is on the electorate

        • Draco T Bastard 25.2.1.1
          11 August 2020 at 1:51 pm

          The onus is on the electorate

          Is it?

          I don't see the electorate being able to vote on policies. I do see it stated in law that MPs aren't actually beholden to vote how the electorate wants, that they must vote their own conscience.

          And then there’s the idea that an electorate candidate can win with less than 50% of the electorate voting for them.

          Which, of course, makes a mockery of the idea of representation.

          • Pat 25.2.1.1.1
            11 August 2020 at 2:00 pm

            If the policies you desire are not available in existing platforms there is nothing to stop the formation of one that makes them available…as evidenced by many examples including ACT, Mana, Internet, New Labour, Social Credit, Conservative etc.

            To claim the offerings are limited is bollocks…the offerings are as limited as our imagination…the difficultly faced is that of support.

            And that is democracy

            • Draco T Bastard 25.2.1.1.1.1
              11 August 2020 at 2:12 pm

              I seem to recall National selling off state assets despite the electorate being against it. I also haven't seen those assets returned to state ownership despite the change in government.

              Which indicates that the electorate don't have a say.

              This is about the US but I'm pretty sure its not that much different in NZ.

              • Pat …
                11 August 2020 at 2:27 pm

                Yes a poll showed the majority of NZers were opposed to the sale of state assets….but not so opposed that in the round they continued to support the government.

                The electorate had their say and a majority decided they wernt upset enough to do anything about it…the onus is on the electorate.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  11 August 2020 at 2:38 pm

                  The electorate supported the government on somethings but not others. Despite knowing that the electorate was against the sale the government still went ahead with it.

                  Despite knowing that the populace supported buying the assets back the new government didn't do so.

                  The government quite often doesn't do what the nation wants and a change in government doesn't change that.

                  • Pat …
                    11 August 2020 at 5:14 pm

                    so your complaint is the electorate didnt vote the gov out DESPITE the fact they had the ability and opportunity….

                    again, thats democracy

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      11 August 2020 at 5:21 pm

                      No. My complaint is that the new government didn't do what the people wanted despite the previous government (who went against the wishes of the people) being voted out.

                      As I say – we don't actually get a choice.

                  • Pat …
                    11 August 2020 at 5:45 pm

                    im pretty sure there was nothing about reversing asset sales in the coalition agreement but you can always start a party with a policy to re nationalise all the previously owned state assets…I may even vote for it but you cannot claim that the opportunity to do so does not exist.

                    Being pissed off with how the majority vote is one thing but it dosnt equal what you claim..democracy (in NZ) exists…alongside apathy

  26. Byd0nz 26
    11 August 2020 at 11:40 am

    Democracy under money systems, regardless of Political parties is a myth.

    True Democracy will come in some future time when the young people realise that we need to protect our common mother earth for human habitation. This Realisation culture will do away with money systems and work for the benefit of all with all their needs catered for by being human and participating in true life. A World without Money.Meantime we will carry on with the myth and most will live in poverty.

    • Pat 26.1
      11 August 2020 at 12:10 pm

      Largely agree, however would suggest the lesser of evils argument applies….history (and current events) clearly show the outcomes of failed states…and as always it is the poor that fare the worst.

      Compare the life realities of the poor in NZ and those in failing states and ask yourself where you would rather be?

    • Draco T Bastard 26.2
      11 August 2020 at 12:55 pm

      Especially when those monetary systems are owned and controlled by the private banks.

  27. Devo 27
    11 August 2020 at 12:52 pm

    No thanks. Labour have made it clear they are targeting the centre this election, and I want a left wing party in government so I three ticks green for me

    The beauty of MMP and coalitions is I can give my party vote to the Greens, and still get PM Ardern and Finance Minister Robertson

    Can't bring myself to vote for my local labour MP Greg O'Connor so I will likely just throw my vote away on the Green candidate

  28. Draco T Bastard 28
    11 August 2020 at 12:54 pm

    Reason 2: Minister of Finance Grant Robertson

    Actually, he's the reason why I won't be voting Labour as he holds on to the failed economic paradigm that is neo-liberalism.

    • roblogic 28.1
      11 August 2020 at 2:39 pm

      Yep I am still waiting for a Labour leader to stand up and publicly apologise for Lab 84 and its betrayal of the working class. And we still have Labour's mutant offspring ACT creeping around the halls of power and making the most disgusting and outright punitive policies against low income Kiwis.

      https://twitter.com/nealejones/status/1292903123879510016?s=20

      • Incognito 28.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 4:34 pm

        Yep I am still waiting for a Labour leader to stand up and publicly apologise for Lab 84 and its betrayal of the working class.

        In that case, there’s a special slogan for you: Let’s Move On!

        In 1984, Jacinda Ardern was aged 4.

    • AB 29.1
      11 August 2020 at 3:29 pm

      Always has been. It's why her colleagues were willing to give her the leadership only at such an inopportune moment.

  30. roblogic 30
    11 August 2020 at 1:21 pm

    TPPA. Housing crisis. Child poverty. GDP, housing bubble, education reliant on unsustainable immigration. CGT failed. Kiwibuild stuck in neutral. Renters routinely exploited. No rent controls.

    Labour & Grant Robertson haven't repudiated Rogernomics. Incremental gains are not good enough. There is a yawning gulf between rich and poor, and it’s not acceptable in a wealthy liberal democracy like NZ.

    Not forgetting climate change of course. How exactly are we going to meet our lofty carbon neutral goal?

  31. CoralSea 31
    11 August 2020 at 1:42 pm

    Greens all the way for me. If you want to know why there’s no CGT have a look at all the property MP’s own, out today, it’s disgusting. They own multiple houses while desperate kiwis are homeless, Their treatment of immigrants has been appalling and must stop immediately. The class of immigrant wishing to come to NZ (they’ve already been turned down by USA, UK, Australia) has proved itself very low, the benefits to our country are negligible and they’re taking our much needed jobs. Immigrants are being mistreated in every way imaginable and it would be proper to freeze all immigration immediately for their own safety. After years of priding ourselves on workers’ rights, we now welcome slavers. Not only that, we aid and abet them in importing their slaves as essential labour. It really is shameful but instead of dealing with it, the govt will allow more slaves to be imported. Kiwis used to milk their own cows and wipe their own parents’ asses, I’m sure we can again.

  32. Red 32
    11 August 2020 at 3:16 pm

    4 reason not to vote labour, albeit not necessary disagreeing with points raised above , but it’s not enough

    feelz doesn’t put food on the table or build and economy

    Jacinda as Sir John Key indicated doesn’t do economy, and it will be the economy stupid wether we prosper as a nation and overcome Covid

    A first term failure in every major policy around delivery, thus great in disasters but a disaster in delivery

    Labour has no plan for Covid if a vaccine is not forthcoming, likewise struggle to reconcile health and economic outcomes

    Saying all of that National have yet really to offer a bolder alternative with meat, beyond trust us, but are unlikely to make things worst as socialism ( especially if greens have a strong influence ) tends to do

    • Draco T Bastard 32.1
      11 August 2020 at 3:31 pm

      Jacinda as Sir John Key indicated doesn’t do economy

      Neither does John Key. As one of my uni economic course teachers told us at the end of one of the first classes in econ 101 – we now knew more about the economy than JK. JKs MBA didn't cover economics and nothing he'd done since had either.

      And then, of course, this is why we have specialists. A single person can't know everything. This is also why a democracy works better than dictatorships.

      A first term failure in every major policy around delivery,

      That is, of course, an outright lie.

      Labour has no plan for Covid if a vaccine is not forthcoming

      Yeah, they actually do. And then there's this point:

      Plans are nothing, planning is everything.

      Part of National's problem is that they stick to their limited plans no matter what.

      Saying all of that National have yet really to offer a bolder alternative with meat, beyond trust us, but are unlikely to make things worst as socialism ( especially if greens have a strong influence ) tends to do

      Completely, totally and utterly wrong as proven by history and research. Capitalism is what destroys communities and society and when the brown stuff hits the whirly thing it has been socialism that has saved the day. Every time and its what's saving us again now with the pandemic.

      • Stuart Munro 32.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 3:36 pm

        Eisenhower may be quoting von Moltke – No plan of battle survives contact with the enemy – he nevertheless thought planning very worthwhile.

      • Red 32.1.2
        11 August 2020 at 3:39 pm

        I will just comment on your last point as the your other points we simply have differing subjective opinions

        Of course collective response to a pandemic or like emergency is the right thing to do, to then use that as justification for socialism is contrary to evidence, history and logic

        [This is the third and last time I fix an error in your e-mail address. Next time you’ll cop an instant ban. Please be more careful when you submit a comment, thanks – Incognito]

    • Patricia Bremner 32.2
      11 August 2020 at 9:09 pm

      Red, You should call yourself Blue

  33. mosa 33
    11 August 2020 at 4:32 pm

    Labours lack of policy is a concern but you can read between the lines.

    The Greens have a excellent policy mix and need support to re enter parliament.

    Party vote Green.

    • Red 33.1
      11 August 2020 at 4:40 pm

      I feel their policy mix ( tax, redistribution, wealth destruction, identity politics etc) would destroy the economic engine, social fabric and incentives that sustain and grow this great county Of course that is simply my opinion, others may differ

      • Draco T Bastard 33.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 5:17 pm

        You beliefs are contrary to the facts.

        • Red 33.1.1.1
          11 August 2020 at 6:27 pm

          Das Kapital may suggest as such in regards to the blabbering of who history tell us was quite an odious individual, however history and reality tells us something different. But hey Draco you always have the refuge of we will do it right next time

          • Draco T Bastard 33.1.1.1.1
            11 August 2020 at 7:07 pm

            No, as I point out above, history and science proves your beliefs wrong.

            You just don't want to believe that and so you continue to deny reality.

            • In Vino 33.1.1.1.1.1
              11 August 2020 at 8:05 pm

              I am unimpressed by you, Red. Your preposterous claim to know what Das Kapital, history and reality tell us informs me that you are an ignorant right-wing bigot who actually does not know much about history at all.

              People who know a lot of history don't indulge in such bullshit. They are much more unpretentious in justifying a point of view.

              Click to Edit – 9 minutes and 15 seconds

          • solkta 33.1.1.1.2
            11 August 2020 at 8:04 pm

            It is hard to tell from your poor writing skills, but it seems like you are suggesting that Marx was an odious individual? On what basis do you make that claim?

  34. millsy 34
    11 August 2020 at 7:42 pm

    There are 3 reasons to vote Labour:

    National, ACT and New Conservative.

    If they get in power, they will impose a world of misery on all New Zealanders, especially those on lower incomes.

  35. Red 35
    11 August 2020 at 8:21 pm

    The Greens are quite dangerous, labour and national are both social democratic parties. One a bit more to the left than the other. Both understand and are more than aware you need markets and prices to effectively allocate resources in a complex modern economy, they both understand property rights underpin this. We’re they differ is at the margins at best Our happy friends the greens actually believe they and a few of their friends can allocates resources and make those millions of decisions on scarcity, demand and supply though central planning better than the market . This is irrespective of the failure of every centrally planned economy in the 20th century, and even now with Venezuela, North Korea, Christ even China saw the light The likes of Draco will tell you it not the horse or central planning been the issue but the jockey ( ie we can do it better ), but unfortunately it’s not the jockey but the horse which is a nag

    • solkta 35.1
      11 August 2020 at 8:26 pm

      Could you please supply evidence of where the Greens have said that they wish to shift to a "centrally planned economy".

      • Draco T Bastard 35.1.1
        11 August 2020 at 8:41 pm

        Perhaps it was their policies to support business? After all, businesses are centrally planned.

        • Red 35.1.1.1
          11 August 2020 at 8:51 pm

          May have over egged The greens a bit Draco but still a lot of we know best in that manifesto, on top of a crazy tax policy

          [“overegging” is a euphemism for making all kinds of unsubstantiated and often factually wrong statements, which have in common a very strong anti-Left lean (surprise!) and waste of our time. It’s obvious that you don’t give a hoot. In other words, you’re simply trolling here in the same way as you did in the past. We know what happened then. This is your first warning to clean up your act; my fuse is much shorter with the election just around the corner – Incognito]

          • solkta 35.1.1.1.1
            11 August 2020 at 8:57 pm

            I think it's called talking out your arse.

          • Draco T Bastard 35.1.1.1.2
            11 August 2020 at 9:05 pm

            Compared to you, they do know best.

            BTW, both me and the Greens are about democracy because we know we don't know everything and that the more varied the input of a decision the better the decision will be.

            I'm in favour of a well regulated market system. Regulation defines the market and ensures that the pricing system works.

            I happen to against capitalism and its 2000+ year old ownership systems because they result in inequality, poverty and a misallocation of resources.

            And China really has seen the light of capitalism. They're getting rid of any sort of democracy that they may have had and I'm pretty sure private business will follow suit. After all, there's nothing more capitalist than a monopoly (Really, why else would we need laws against them in a capitalist state?).

          • Incognito 35.1.1.1.3
            11 August 2020 at 9:28 pm

            See my Moderation note @ 8:51 PM.

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