Open mike 04/02/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:52 am, February 4th, 2014 - 333 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

 

openmike

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

333 comments on “Open mike 04/02/2014 ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. One Anonymous Knucklehead 1
    4 February 2014 at 7:09 am

    Toothless poodle. No doubt Chinese and Swiss banks will be obeying US orders too /sarc.

    • Flip 1.1
      4 February 2014 at 7:53 am

      I was wondering where tax is paid by multi-national companies? It seems to me it should be in the country where the income was earned. Is that the case? Or is it in the country where the company is registered? That would be wrong.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 1.1.1
        4 February 2014 at 8:09 am

        It probably depends very much on local tax law.

      • KJT 1.1.2
        4 February 2014 at 10:08 am

        Generally supposed to be where income is earned.

        But multinationals have almost unlimited opportunities to hide it.

        The simplest is the branch, in the country with the lowest taxes, charging the branch in higher tax countries for services, such as “intellectual property use”, rendered.

        Then there is the double Irish switch with a Balkan ballet.

        Shipping companies have been doing it forever.

        All legal of course.

        • McFlock 1.1.2.1
          4 February 2014 at 12:49 pm

          personally I quite liked the sound of a “Dutch sandwich” until I discovered it was a tax dodge 🙂

      • Rodel 1.1.3
        4 February 2014 at 1:33 pm

        Flip
        Ask Richard Branson..

      • aerobubble 1.1.4
        4 February 2014 at 4:29 pm

        Where is the income earned? Where the user is, the advertizement is, the server is?

    • Colonial Viper 1.2
      4 February 2014 at 9:01 am

      Given all the real opportunities which they let pass to collect serious taxes from multibillion dollar corporates, I view this as partly about US surveillance attempts to have “total information awareness” about everyone and everything across the globe.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 1.2.1
        4 February 2014 at 9:05 am

        Yeah I assume they’re doing it anyway but they need to do it overtly for some reason.

      • Tracey 1.2.2
        4 February 2014 at 4:39 pm

        Bill English says more tax is lost by people buying online than by multi nationals… and he wants to save mum and dad from the evil of it all.

    • alwyn 1.3
      4 February 2014 at 7:02 pm

      What will happen in New Zealand if the banks cannot legally pass on this information to the US Government is that they will close all bank accounts held by people who are required to complete a US tax return, and refuse to open new ones.
      That is all US citizens and anyone who holds a US Green Card (giving you the right to work there).

      The problem is that if the banks do not conform to the US Government rules they are essentially prevented from doing any business at all in the US. All the major banks need to be able to do business there, even though they don’t have any branchs, in order to be able to provide support for their business customers.
      Note the bit in the item below about the 30% penalty on all the bank’s business in the US.

      http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/09/27/american-expats/1594695/

  2. Skinny 2
    4 February 2014 at 7:20 am

    The final state power asset about to be sold. As a customer I receive a letter, GE tell me is good news they are offering a 2 year fixed contract. Reading further they state their will be a wee rise, the calculation is confusing to workout. Will be contacting them today to get clarification on the formula.

     Reading the ‘Terms and Conditions’ which is also appears deliberately vague, they reserve the right to change prices ‘if an error’ in pricing is discovered.

    Either way my power is set to go up as a result of Nationals fire sale. Anyone else have issues with their offer etc?

    • srylands 2.1
      4 February 2014 at 7:36 am

      “Either way my power is set to go up as a result of Nationals fire sale.”

      How is that?

      • framu 2.1.1
        4 February 2014 at 8:15 am

        are you saying that the shareholders dividend demands wont have an effect?

        fucks sake – your own ideology points to price increases to satisfy investor demand

        but you do know this – your just playing your silly little games

        • Skinny 2.1.1.1
          4 February 2014 at 8:26 am

          Shrillands know full well prices will rise, however I will be sending GE a letter for them to please inform me the sale date so I can switch to another power supply company. May open an account with the 1st over valued power company sold, those investors were tucked in by Keys hyped up snake oil. Actually if all those people opposed to asset sales with a GE account done the same, the arse would drop further out of the sale price.

        • Naki Man 2.1.1.2
          4 February 2014 at 9:29 pm

          Are you being deliberately stupid or just lying. The government is still the major share holder.
          Nothing has changed there. Pretty obvious you have never owned and know fuck all about business.

          • McFlock 2.1.1.2.1
            4 February 2014 at 9:36 pm

            dipshit, read the companies act. As soon as there’s more than one shareholder the directors need to act in the interests of the company (i.e. profits) rather than in the interests of the shareholders (i.e. cold NZers).

            Up until the sale, the government could have issued a direction to the board to act in a manner that might not be the commercial best decision, but would serve the purposes of the shareholder (the company). That was out with share one.

    • Rosie 2.2
      4 February 2014 at 9:01 am

      Am a Genesis customer too but haven’t received a letter such as yours as yet Skinny.

      I think that given two thirds of the country voted NO to asset sales in the referendum the time is ripe for massive protest the length and breadth of the country. We must continue to fight back, indeed it is critical in election year for rowdy protest to demonstrate to the Nat Govt that their days are numbered and thy better start packing their bags.

      Heard on the news this am that Key is saying that the election will occur in the second half of the year. A November election could clash with the G20 summit. From that I took that he was hinting it may be earlier than November. There’s been rumours it could happen early and the second half of the year is July onwards so anyone interested in booting out this govt needs to be alert to the importance of timely action……..

      • veutoviper 2.2.1
        4 February 2014 at 10:00 am

        I am also a Genesis customer at present but have not received a letter yet.

        I was previously a Mercury customer but was determined to ditch them when the MRP partial sale went ahead. Conveniently on that very day, Genesis came knocking on the door with a very good one year deal. Much as I have lower power prices with them than with previous providers, I am again determined to leave them when the one year deal ends if the Genesis sale goes ahead as now seems likely. So the search for another provider is about to start.

        Re Key playing with words etc on the date of the general election, his comments so far have not changed my opinion that he will go early – mid July to early Oct at the very latest – as per my previous comments on Open Mike on 7 January, eg http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07012014/#comment-754462

        • Rosie 2.2.1.1
          4 February 2014 at 11:28 am

          Ah yes veutoviper. Thanks for the link. I do recall reading your well considered analysis and prediction and was greatly interested. I just forgot about the nuts and bolts of it, as well as the G20 summit, until Key mentioned it this morning.

          (As the time draws nearer I will be collating my soundtrack to my “Dance On Key’s Grave” party. It goes beyond dancing on Key’s grave of course but he represents the last almost five and a half years of indifference, contempt and betrayal of the NZ public))

          Are Labour and The Greens prepared for the possibility of an early election? Are they primed and ready, not allowing themselves to be caught in the headlights? And still no word on who the Labour candidate for Ohariu is! Dunne must vacate the seat, on this, his 30th year of holding it.

          • greywarbler 2.2.1.1.1
            4 February 2014 at 12:21 pm

            Rosie
            In all the dictionaries, thesaurusi, lists of adjectives, synonnyms, and antonyms you picked up the perfect three and put them down here, to describe Jokeyhen and the NACTs heavy metal band, so awesomely showing off their punk culture under the new Johnny Rotten with – indifference, contempt and betrayal of the NZ public

        • Olwyn 2.2.1.2
          4 February 2014 at 11:55 am

          Snap! I did just the same thing for the same reasons. And will no doubt take the same next step if Genesis goes on sale. 🙂

      • Skinny 2.2.2
        4 February 2014 at 10:54 am

        A stand is the right things to do, may i suggest you and V Viper consider joining the facebook group Genesis Customers Revolt

        Maybe enough consumers can join together and play their supply and demand game i.e bulk consumer power to get a better rate.

        • Rosie 2.2.2.1
          4 February 2014 at 11:40 am

          Hi Skinny, thanks for the heads up on the Genesis Customer Revolt. I’m not on facebook but I’m there sure there will be many Genesis customers who are, and who would be more comfortable getting involved in such a campaign than being on the street. I wish it every success.

          A social media campaign combined with street protest would be disruptive to the smooth running of the Nats PR spin in an election year, especially with the referendum results being relatively fresh. I feel a placard coming on:

          “67% said NO to asset sales. When we say NO we mean NO” (Last sentence can be a chant followed by a rhyming “Hey Hey Ho Ho, John Key must GO!”)

    • David H 2.3
      4 February 2014 at 2:48 pm

      Well I will see if I can find a NZ owned company at a cheap rate. But no letter from Genesis either.

    • aerobubble 2.4
      4 February 2014 at 4:33 pm

      Me too. My thoughts is that its election time, and Lab-Green means to alter the energy industry so 2 year contracts may make life more interesting. Also its hard to work out how much the rebate will be, if the line rate goes up (and then down since its locked in), its hard to fathom whether its a good thing or not. Little point since its swings and roundabouts, and then a cliff when Labour wins.

  3. amirite 3
    4 February 2014 at 7:25 am

    Who does Jon Key Ill think he is? Oh, I know who. The Dearest Leader who has a ‘moral’ mandate to form a government as the largest party. The deluded douche thinks it’s still FPP, not MMP.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=140635

    • srylands 3.1
      4 February 2014 at 7:43 am

      “The deluded douche thinks it’s still FPP, not MMP.”

      I seriously doubt that.

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 3.2
      4 February 2014 at 7:48 am

      Nice of him to affect a silver fern on black. He’s wearing the flag.

      “Why Mr. Key, I see you’ve invented your own sigil…”

    • Chooky 3.3
      4 February 2014 at 7:58 am

      i think NACT is flogging a dead horse….and the more they try plaster over the rot with fake video PR the more sham they will seem

      Cunliffe good on the radio this morning talking about the Key NACT Govt hasty selling of Genesis at below price ….a loss for New Zealanders …..but a gain for his rich 1% mates

      Winston who hates asset sales will be watching and waiting ( Our next Minister of Foreign Affairs?)

      • freedom 3.3.1
        4 February 2014 at 8:22 am

        Cunliffe was very good but when an interviewer brings up the topic of Labour having to borrow money, the response should not be a defensive one, it must be to remind listeners that National have borrowed over sixty billion dollars in only five years. Why do they consistently fail to mention this every chance they get?

        Today we hear there are calls for more money to pay for CHCH.
        National has borrowed sixty billion dollars, and rising.
        So what is National borrowing tens of billions for, if not to pay for CHCH?

        The RONZ are only 12 billion right?
        Is there a super special cycleway we don’t know about?

        If someone can clarify it all, it would be appreciated, I can’t be the only one who has this question?

    • karol 3.4
      4 February 2014 at 9:51 am

      Desperation – Team Key is going to throw everything they can at the opposition, whether it’s relevant or not.

      • KJT 3.4.1
        4 February 2014 at 10:04 am

        Yep. Be prepared for every nasty, contrived dog whistle to swing voters that National can concoct.

        And expect a string of ,every objection under the sun, muddying of the waters, distracting issues such as waving the flag, personal attacks and every other dirty trick, NACT have imported from the USA.

        Labour does need to, still, unfortunately, extract the foot from the mouth.

        Many who are not that interested in politics vote for who they perceive to be the least incompetent. That is not, Labour yet! I hope they will improve. We need a partner for the Greens in 2014.

        Highlighting that a politician is lying, is, I think, a waste of time.
        Saying that a politician is lying is, to most people, akin to saying a leopard has spots.

    • KJT 3.5
      4 February 2014 at 10:14 am

      No. The largest “minority” does not have an automatic right to form the Government.

      They didn’t, even under FPP.

  4. phillip ure 4
    4 February 2014 at 7:26 am

    i understand tvone viewers are upset by footage of a nz farm worker..on a nz farm in chile..

    ..smashing in the brains of an (unwanted/uneconomic) calf with a sledgehammer..

    ..those ‘upset’ need to open their eyes..

    ..and see similar/worse cruelties all around them..

    ..every minute of every day..

    ..all done in their name..

    ..and all just to feed their (cannibal-like) addictions to animal flesh and fat..

    (do you have any idea how gross it looks..?..that chewing on the limbs of dead animals..?..when you haven’t done it for a long time..?..’cannibal’ is understating it..)

    ..if yr fucken eating them..

    ..spare me yr handwringing/crocodile-tears over this calf..

    ..eh..?

    ..’want bacon with that..?..some cheese..?’

    phillip ure..

    • Tracey 4.1
      4 February 2014 at 7:55 am

      Are you vegan?

    • Ad 4.2
      4 February 2014 at 8:01 am

      What reasons do you prefer for not eating meat?

      • phillip ure 4.2.1
        4 February 2014 at 8:14 am

        @ ad..

        ..it causes cancer..

        ..the production of it trashes the environment..

        ..but mostly..

        ..the unbelievable/gross cruelties done to (my eyes) beautiful ‘alive’ creatures..

        ..each and every minute of every day..

        ..and these cruelties all done out of sight of the addicts who eat them..

        ..and you know what..?..many of those addicts would weep..(especially children..)..

        ..if they saw what was done in their names/to feed their (easily-kickable) addictions..

        ..i have more..if you need it..

        ..phillip ure..

        • phillip ure 4.2.1.1
          4 February 2014 at 8:58 am

          @ ad..

          ..and on a personal-wellbeing/health-level..

          ..you feel much better..and look better..

          ..if you aren’t stuffing gobs of animal-fat/flesh down yr throat..

          ..and a plant-based/vegan diet..is the only ‘diet’ that works..

          ..eat a healthy(!) plant/fruit-based/vegan-diet..

          ..do some light exercise..

          ..and just watch all that pre-consumed fat fall off yr body…

          ..and watch it stay off..

          ..but a major reason..is a selfish one..

          ..’cos just ‘feeling better’..is pretty good/cool..

          ..the reasons ‘for not eating meat’..are multifold..

          ..in fact..aside from that fat/flesh addiction-sustaining/maintenance..

          ..hard to think of a reason to eat it..

          ..eh..?

          ..phillip ure

      • Chooky 4.2.2
        4 February 2014 at 8:18 am

        lol…where have you been Ad?

        phillip….where is the phillip ure Vegan Sausage?…you have to give people an alternative to get off their beastly carnivore addiction

        • phillip ure 4.2.2.1
          4 February 2014 at 9:01 am

          @chooky..re vegan-sausage..

          ..still waiting for that financial-backing..

          ..eh..?

          ..i have all the other ingredients..

          ..i just need the dough-ray-mee..

          ..(sorry..!..couldn’t resist..)

          ..phillip ure..

          • Chooky 4.2.2.1.1
            4 February 2014 at 4:22 pm

            phillip ure …if I win powerball some will go to the phillip ure Vegan sausage industry, pinky promise

        • Rosie 4.2.2.2
          4 February 2014 at 9:07 am

          Chooky, you know such products are on the market already and are successful sellers?

          Tonzu manufacture g.e free, palm oil free soy vegan sausages in West Auckland. They’re a good company to support as they pay the living wage to their staff. It’s decent sausie too, not all fake tasting like the other brands. In fact I had them only last night, on the BBQ!

          • weka 4.2.2.2.1
            4 February 2014 at 9:29 am

            I suggest reading up on the health problems associated with soy including endocrine disruption before recommending people replace meat with soy.

            Then there are the environmental issues, including AGW.

            • Rosie 4.2.2.2.1.1
              4 February 2014 at 9:52 am

              Hi weka. I am not an enthusiastic advocate of soy for the reasons you mention above, but I do eat the odd bit of tofu and vego sausie for variety in my pescetarian diet.

              Having worked in the wholefoods industry for 14 years previously I am well aware of the individual and environmental effects of many “health” foods. (Incidentally, I left that industry because I got sick of the the Blue-Green bullshit, with the exception of the Chalmers family who produce Tonzu, they’re down to earth socially minded people)

              I was merely informing Chooky that there are vegan sausages on the market, as Chooky and phil have been discussing the potential for launching such a product on the market.

              I was lurking in the hallway of the bad party that occurred a few weeks ago on Open Mike, so am well of the argy bargy that went on and don’t want to get drawn in to the kitchen if it’s going to kick off again.

              • phillip ure …
                4 February 2014 at 10:13 am

                i sneer @ yr tonzu vegan-sausage..

                ..my vegan-sausage is much tastier..

                ..and soy-free..!..too..!

                ..phillip ure..

                • Rosie …
                  4 February 2014 at 10:34 am

                  Quit your sneering and bring it on then bad boy!

                  Send me a packet, I’ll be in the “focus group” for your market research. Independent market research that is. I’m sure all your comrades have already tried them and given them the thumbs up 🙂

                  • phillip ure …
                    4 February 2014 at 10:43 am

                    @ rosie..

                    ..of course..at the appropriate-time..there will be (blind)-testing taste-offs..

                    ..and ‘pescetarian’..eh..?

                    ..and if there for animal welfare issues at all..

                    ..can i suggest a peek at the central nervous systems of fish..?

                    ..very similar to humans..they are….so..if you can imagine hook-in-mouth etc etc..?

                    ..(just saying..!..)

                    ..and for others to criticise soy for agw-reasons..is kinda funny..

                    ..given any agw-problems from soy come from growing that soy to feed those animals..

                    ..animals that themselves are the most agw-causing way of producing food..

                    ..eh..?..)

                    phillip ure..

                    • Rosie …
                      4 February 2014 at 12:11 pm

                      Phil, please no, I do not want to go down that road with you. I can see why miravox felt exasperated and sighed. I am in the same boat as her and feel better for introducing meat back into to my diet. I have about 2 fish meals a week, the remainder are vegan and vego. I chose fish because while I am aware of the suffering to them and the degradation to the marine environment I have less emotional attachment to our marine friends than I do to our four legged ones.

                      But look, I did go down that road. I justified my choices!

                      Remember that craic we had the day after the bad party? I talked about my appreciation of your humour and your political knowledge. This is a political site after all. I did mention something along the lines of my concern about your judgements of the dietary choices of commenters. It’s personal and crosses the line. I understand you want to educate people about the consequences of eating meat and dairy but you go about it an an antagonistic way comrade. It’s not how you get folks on side.

                      It also insults the intelligence of commenters. Many people here appear to be environmentally aware and have discussed the consequences of the dairy industry on our land and waterways, just as one example. I think it’s unwise to assume readers visiting this site are uneducated about animal welfare in factory farming.

                      But you know, both yourself and weka just did the same thing despite you both being on the opposite ends of the food choices spectrum. You both assumed I know nothing and weka suggested I do some reading. Food is something I’m well clued up on, I have to say, and it’s kind of offensive that both you and her make assumptions about my knowledge, or anyone’s else knowledge.

                      It was global food politics that brought me into the broader Left movement in the first place. I enjoy being able to ask those commenters here who have more political knowledge than me their views on events and issues and welcome their replies. I don’t enjoy being judged though or told what to do about my personal food choices, it reminds me of my authoritarian upbringing, and gets my hackles feeling bristly.

                    • phillip ure …
                      4 February 2014 at 12:36 pm

                      @ rosie..too much to unpack..

                      .save to say that in every paragraph you are incorrect/need that unpacking..

                      ..and to claim this conversation is ‘personal’..and not ‘political’..

                      ..(with the subtext that i should just shut up about this pachyderm in most ‘greenies’/progressives’ rooms..(?)..)

                      ..could not be more wrong..

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • Zorr …
                      4 February 2014 at 1:34 pm

                      Rosie… welcome to why I stopped engaging. I welcome a good discussion but this topic with phil is like willingly submitting to abuse.

                      One small thought phil – one reason against meat in your book is cancer. Yet you smoke weed. Hypocritical much?

              • weka …
                4 February 2014 at 10:15 am

                Fair enough Rosie 🙂

            • Belladonna 4.2.2.2.1.2
              4 February 2014 at 11:06 am

              Plenty of research out showing soy is a cancer preventative. Try the PCRM site for starters.
              I like Linda McCartneys sausages but look forward to buying some Ure’s vegan sausages.

            • Draco T Bastard 4.2.2.2.1.3
              4 February 2014 at 12:09 pm

              Soy Health

              Cancer

              According to the American Cancer Society, “Studies in humans have not shown harm from eating soy foods. Moderate consumption of soy foods appears safe for both breast cancer survivors and the general population, and may even lower breast cancer risk.”

              There doesn’t appear to be any research suggesting that soybean products are bad for people.

              and god knows what effect you think growing plants will have on AGW.

              • weka …
                4 February 2014 at 7:27 pm

                god and many others. Bear in mind that what I am about to write is a response to the idea of some vegans that everyone should stop eating meat.

                Soy and health –

                There are a number of issues with soy. One is that it is particularly high in ‘anti-nutrients’ (notably phytates). The other is its effect on hormonal systems.

                The statement doesn’t particularly surprise me from the American Cancer Society. Bear in mind that soy is highly political, and there is a large industry in the US with huge PR budgets. I’m not saying that the ACS is corrupt, just that they will interpret things one way. You can find others who will interpret other ways. As with the conversation below about how meat eating causes cancer, you can find research to show it does and research to show it doesn’t. Likewise soy and health. You can compre the ACS saying ‘soy hasn’t been shown to be dangerous’ to the NZ MoH saying ‘effects of soy are unknown, but there are indications of risk so we are erring on the side of caution’ (that’s for infant formula). They’re basing their statements on the same research but reaching different conclusions. IMO there are major food politics involved in that.

                http://www.health.govt.nz/publication/soy-based-infant-formula-parent-information

                http://www.theguardian.com/news/2006/jul/25/food.foodanddrink

                The most convincing thing I’ve seen to balance that is anecdotal evidence from communities where being vegetarian is normal. Reports are coming out of people eating a lot of soy and having hormonal problems that go away when the soy consumption is stopped. Anecdotal isn’t ‘proof’, but it is evidence and IMO a valuable addition to the picture. If you want the science, you can wade through all the various for and againsts and decide that way.

                Not all soy is equal. Traditional soy eating cultures eat different varieties of soy than the West does, and they eat soy in combination with different foods. Historially it was non-GE and organic too. Lots of variables, making RCTs more difficult. Myself, I think eating small amounts of soy is probably fine for many people, esp in the context of traditional diets. But replacing meat protein largely with soy protein across a whole population is likely to cause multiple problems.

                Soy and AGW (and the rest of the environment) –

                Monocropping that relies on ploughing, burn off, pesticides and artificial fertiliser (ie most soy growing) destroys the microbial life in soil that sequesters carbon. That farming releases carbon into the atmosphere. This isn’t restricted to soy obviously, but if we were to replace all meat and dairy eating in NZ with vegan diets, that would have to be a consideration.

                Food miles are the biggest part of the NZ ecological footprint, and have significant GHG emissions associated with them. By far the marjoity of soy in NZ is produced overseas and transported here.

                The question then becomes, if we could adopt best practice (sustainable farming, local food production) then would vegan be better than non-vegan. I think that depends on where you live. In NZ I think its possible to grow small amounts of meat, dairy and fish alongside lots of vegetable foods (esp tree crops) and do that sustainably and mitigate AGW. Our biggest issues here with meat and dairy production are that our farms are industrial and designed around export, and so are largely polluting and destructive to the environment. It’s very hard to compare like with like, because we’re not doing any of the right things on a large scale yet and afaik no-one has done the theoretical comparisons for this geography and climate. But I doubt that converting large swathes of land to conventional monocropped soy production would be any better than traditional NZ beef and sheep farming.

                • Zorr …
                  4 February 2014 at 9:49 pm

                  +1 weka

                  Thank you for taking the time to lay that all out there.

                • phillip ure …
                  5 February 2014 at 7:03 am

                  do you receive your income from the meat-industry..weka..?

                  ..the above is a tissue of lies/miss-information..(and defending the agw impact of/from animal-farms..vs..growing soy..who are you trying to kid..?..)

                  ..you ignore what you have already been told..about findings re cancer-prevention/soy..

                  ..you conveniently ignore the fact that the biggest amount of soy grown..

                  ..is grown to be fed to animals..on those afore-mentioned farms..

                  ..you ignore the fact of societies where soy is traditionally/widely used..

                  ..and you finish with a strawman-argument/nightmare..

                  ..arguing against blanketing nz in soy-farms..?

                  ..who suggested that..?

                  ..and i guess to be honest with the readers of yr bullshit..

                  ..you should tell them that you are that walking oxymoron..

                  ..the ‘green’-carnivore..

                  ..eh..?

                  (..’more pig-fat with that salad..?’..)

                  ..phillip ure..

                  • phillip ure …
                    5 February 2014 at 7:10 am

                    and how are you with smashing (uneconomic) calves’ brains in with hammers..?..mm..?

                    ..as a regular ‘industry-practice’..?

                    ..all done in yr name/to feed yr addictions..

                    ..you do realise that..eh..?

                    ..and how fucken ‘green’ is that..?

                    ..d’yareckon..?

                    ..these abominations..you..as a ‘green’..defend..

                    ..any way you could weave a soy-scare-story into that..?

                    ..go on..!..give it a go..!

                    ..eh…?

                    ..you are quite practised at the dark-art of defending animal concentration-camps/charnal-houses..

                    ..are you the definition of ‘a thoroughly modern green’..?

                    ..are you..?

                    ..a ‘pragmatic’-green..are we..?

                    phillip ure..

          • bad12 4.2.2.2.2
            4 February 2014 at 10:41 am

            Rosie, can these vegan sausages be found in Wellington, i aint exactly a vegan having been a meat eater all my life but in the interests of my cholesterol level have decided to go vegetarian,(lolz, for at least a year and if there is no change it’s back to yummy roasts and full cream milk),

            i have no plans on living on a diet of Lentils and Mung beans and attempting a low fat, low sugar diet is a little restricted so any ‘proven healthy’ meat substitutes and a pointer to where they can be bought from would be a help…

            • phillip ure 4.2.2.2.2.1
              4 February 2014 at 10:52 am

              here you are bad..

              more resource/recipies than you can poke a stick at..

              http://whoar.co.nz/?s=vegan+recipies

              ..see yr ‘cholestorol-problems fade to a memory..

              ..and there is gourmet-vegan thai/japanese etc etc..

              ..’boring’ ‘lentils and mung-beans’..it ain’t

              ..and bad..if you plan a ‘cheesy’-vegetarian diet..

              ..(using even more than usual..as a compensation for no meat..?..)

              ..you had may as well not bother..eh..?

              ..’cos yr cholesterol-levels won’t budge..

              ..to drop all those cholestoral/high blood pressure problems..

              ..go plant-based/vegan..

              ..then you will be cooking with gas..

              ..eh..?

              phillip ure..

              • bad12 …
                4 February 2014 at 10:58 am

                Tah much, Phillip, i have things to do and will check the recipes later…

                • phillip ure …
                  4 February 2014 at 12:12 pm

                  and i gotta tell ya..bad..

                  ..if you stick to a (healthy) plant-based diet for (yr proposed) year..

                  ..and you make it a thing of fun..

                  ..(as in finding a few killer-recipies to awe friends with..

                  ..’i can’t believe it’s vegan..!..)

                  ..not do it as a form of penance..to be got thru..

                  ..at the end of that yr you will feel like a million dollars ..(compared to now..)

                  ..yr chol-probs will be a thing of the past..

                  (and if you (or anyone else) have any questions…my contact details are @ whoar..

                  ..feel free..)

                  phillip ure..

              • Olwyn …
                4 February 2014 at 11:22 am

                Phillip, I am not a vegan and do not plan to become one, but every so often a I think of you when I am cooking a certain pasta dish. Do you know that you can use dry fried white breadcrumbs where many recipes use parmesan? I think they would go very well with angel hair pasta or vermicelli in a vegan puttanesca sauce, minus the anchovies of course, and the sauce containing plenty of olive oil, garlic and back pepper.

                • phillip ure …
                  4 February 2014 at 11:45 am

                  chrs 4 that..olwyn..

                  phillip ure..

                • greywarbler …
                  4 February 2014 at 1:13 pm

                  pjillip u
                  I glanced at your comment, saw that it was about healthy eating and thought I saw – cater pillers recipes…
                  Actually it was – finding a few killer-recipies…

                  How often do you get caterpillars sharing your veges in your vegan diet? Those big green squashy ones would put me off.

                  • MeToo …
                    4 February 2014 at 2:16 pm

                    Finding vegan recipes that are tasty and varied is as easy as using an internet search engine… just type in what ingredients you have, + recipes + vegan
                    and check out what comes up.

                    My meat-devouring teenagers eat vegan when they are living with me (they spend half their time with their Dad) and say they really really enjoy the food – that’s the test of good vegan food – non-vegans enjoy it too!

                • greywarbler …
                  4 February 2014 at 6:17 pm

                  Angel hair I recommend it. Just the thing for in a hurry food – takes 2 minutes. Just thin spaghetti but faster cooking. San Remo red packet I think.

            • Rosie 4.2.2.2.2.2
              4 February 2014 at 12:42 pm

              Hi bad12,

              I think you’re in East Wellington, from memory of our discussions about earthquakes. You can find Tonzu vego sausies at Commonsense Organics in Kilbirnie for $7.20 for a packet of 6. Kind of pricey but no more than meat sausages.

              They may also be at New World in Miramar. Interestingly, they cost more, $8 at the supermarket over this way than they do at Commonsense Organics J’ville, proving the supermarket isn’t always cheaper and could in fact be on to a rort.

              I am busy chuckling away here. You may have read the exchange phil, weka and I had above. After all that I am am having a soy fiesta, after getting my left over BBQ’ed vego sausies out of the fridge to make a sausie buttie while at the same time doing a marinade for a block of tofu for tonight’s meal. Soy Bingo! (It’s only because the tofu is expiring that I have to use it today) Soy, 3 meals in a row. Hope I cope. Some lentils and mung beans would be welcome lol!!!

              All the best for your health endeavours

              • bad12 …
                4 February 2014 at 2:25 pm

                Rosie, great, thanks for the info, will have a think about where i buy the meat-free sausages from, my thinking at the moment is that ‘No World’ might have a bigger turnover,(considering ‘gush’ ‘gush’ all the movie people shop there including a Jackson lookalike complete with shoeless feet),

                Makes one more meal on my short list, a hard think when a body has been a consumer of meat for 50 odd years,

                Lolz, the health issues get more FFFing complicated every time i go near the doctor and i now have 4 types of meds including statins for the jam tart and something for the high sugar count,(with a huge leap of faith needed to bridge the ‘trust gap’ as far as doctors go still urging me to toss the lot down the bog),

                X rays again last week, and, here was me thinking 5 minutes for a couple of shots, 22 later i probably could use a anti-radiation pill or two,(they even took an X-ray to make sure my brain was still attached to my body, Ha ha ha ha ha, i kid you not),

                Yeah i see the debate heating up above me around food and the eating of delicious fat laden animals of all descriptions,(oh God i crave a steak and egg burger),interestingly having changed the whole diet, even honey as the sweetener in my multitude of cups of tea, i Google everything eaten to check out the health benefits,

                Most of what i read takes no account of either GE or what level of pesticides the particular fruit or plant is capable of absorbing in an untraceable manner so i might be swapping the joys of possible heart disease for a future dose of poison of an entirely different nature,

                Cheers Rosie thanks for the tip on where to find the sausies…

                • Rosie …
                  4 February 2014 at 3:17 pm

                  Bloody hell bad12. It does take a leap of faith to trust the Doc’s prescriptions at times and especially given your experiences with them.

                  I gather you felt reassured to know that yes, your brain was still in fact attached to your body. But of course, we all that know that around here 🙂

                  Those X Rays. I’ve had so many I’ve wondered if I were radioactive. I understand that iodine helps support the thyroid if one has been exposed to radiation. Iodine is found in things like fish and seaweed, but then again so is high amounts of mercury, a neuro toxin (in the fish) so, comes back to your point about swapping one undesirable for another.

                  Glad you now have one new meal in your repertoire and all the best for finding many other suitable ones. Let us know what you think of the vego sausages!

                  • bad12 …
                    4 February 2014 at 4:09 pm

                    Lolz Rosie, the Doc is away till next week and as it’s mostly X-rays of stuff i have known about for a while i will happily let the suspense build to see if the grey matter still has an earth so to speak,(although them wanting that particular picture doesn’t bode too well for the one to check for neck damage which i am pretty sure wont be a pretty picture),

                    Must have a Google and see if the lump living in the swede can become separated from the corpse,(might have been a little joke to lighten up the X-rayer’s day and i am sniggering at the very idea of it),

                    Yes the vege sausages are a good one, maybe with a spaghetti and lots of tomato based sauce along with a good lashing of raw spring onion to replace the previously used cheese,

                    Will check out Phill’s link and see what ideas are there too…

                • Chooky …
                  4 February 2014 at 6:01 pm

                  bad12…i hate to say this ( i hope phillip ure is not listening)

                  but for some people a meat diet is best…and for the heart!….some people do best on a carbo diet(no meat), others on a mixed diet and still others on a meat hardly any carbo diet…dependent on blood type

                  eg. we know of a woman who had a heart condition who was advised to check out her blood type …and apparently she was of the type that needed a largely meat diet and to avoid the carbohydrates…her heart heath improved enormously on this diet…

                  ….in the end it pays to trust your instincts ( eg once eggs were a no no for hearts ….but now they are good for your heart)

                  chlorestrol can be hit with Lecithen and other natural oils, vitamins and minerals

                  ….why not check out alternative medicine ( nutritionists, natropaths, homeopaths, acupuncturists,Chinese herbalists as well as your own conventional Western medicine…then trust your instincts…if you want to get well proactively shop around and do what feels good

                  …that said if you want to eat Vegan sausages but also need iron and othe B vitamins ….try a large dollop of Black Strap Molasses ( Red Seal and cheap)….molasses is what farmers give to cattle and it is a real tonic

                  • Belladonna …
                    4 February 2014 at 6:12 pm

                    Chooky, the Blood type diet was discredited long ago. This and the low carb/Paleo diets are high in meat and dairy products which have been proven to cause cancer.
                    While the increase in fruit and veg will undoubtedly improve health short term, long term will result in cancer. The Guardian had an article recently that within something like 30 years 70% of deaths will be from cancer. For me, the bottom line is animal abuse and cruelty that eating meat is responsible for. There is no excuse for that.
                    For those concerned with their health going vegan is the only option.

                    • Chooky …
                      4 February 2014 at 6:31 pm

                      @ Belladonna

                      well i agree with you on the ethics of it …..it is horrible to eat animals( that is why i am all for phillip ure Vegan sausages)

                      ….and that theory about blood types and diet may be wrong….but it worked in that particular case…and I have to say that although I was a vegetarian for 6 months …and had tried previously sporadically over the years to be a vegetarian ……..i felt a hell of a lot better when i became a lapsed vegetarian….in the end one has to trust ones own instincts

                      ….btw…dark chocolate is supposed to be very good for blood pressure and Guiness Stout( as well as oranges) …that is my special diet

                    • McFlock …
                      4 February 2014 at 6:53 pm

                      Of course deaths from cancer will increase – pathogenic disease and accident rates will decrease due to better prevention and treatment (even without antibiotics, sterile practices and antivirals mean that we won’t go back to the survival/incidence rates of the victorian era), so that leaves cancer, heart disease and other aging problems (Alzheimers, for example). And the heart disease is becoming more treatable, too. But cancer’s so wonderfully diverse in it’s ways of fucking you up, the treatment will lag behind.

                    • bad12 …
                      4 February 2014 at 7:34 pm

                      Fucken second hand smoke, gets everyone in the end…

                    • Chooky …
                      4 February 2014 at 7:42 pm

                      @McFlock….cancer is a tricky one….i think yoga, meditation, and peanut butter and red wine for longevity is the latest…so large dollops of peanut butter

                      …also the Queen Mother swore by her Gin and tonic….and I have noticed people who drink Gin seem to live a long time ( it was invented by a Dutch doctor for the kidneys ie the juniper berry is good for kidneys)

                      …personally if i got cancer ( which i dont envisage at all)….i would be tempted to skip the chemotherapy and go to India and check out Ayurvedic medicine….then …..have a bloody good time for as long as possible( might try phillip ure’s ideas on a good time…not the Veganism ones )…..i like the philosophy of Jane Roberts ..(.channeller of the Seth books) on health…..ie we are all a lot more in control of our health and our living and dying than we realise ….and even set some of our challenges and our longevity before we are born ( ironically she had exceptionally poor physical health…but still produced amazingly interesting books imo).

                      i guess one day we will be able to load our Selves up into a new body produced by our genes( genetically modified) and gestated out of a test tube
                      ……

                    • McFlock …
                      4 February 2014 at 8:39 pm

                      steve jobs had a similar idea. oops.

                    • Chooky …
                      5 February 2014 at 10:26 am

                      @ McFlock….steve jobs may have died if he had gone with chemotherapy and conventional medicine anyway

                      ( I have seen a perfectly healthy looking person …but with cancer….die in a matter of weeks undergoing chemotherapy….it wrecked his liver….he may have died anyway but in his case i reckon chemotherapy speeded it up)

                    • McFlock …
                      5 February 2014 at 11:40 am

                      indeed.
                      But the thing about delaying actual treatment is that the longer you wait, the worse the prognosis.

                      Some doctors seem to think that if he’d started medical treatment early, he had an exceptionally good chance of beating the disease.

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      5 February 2014 at 11:53 am

                      Some doctors seem to think that if he’d started medical treatment early, he had an exceptionally good chance of beating the disease.

                      Always a race between whether the toxicity of the treatment kills you or the disease kills you. For good treatments, a lot more people will be in the latter group, not the former.

                      But plenty of people will fall into both groups.

                      Roll the dice and see.

                    • weka …
                      5 February 2014 at 12:00 pm

                      “Some doctors seem to think that if he’d started medical treatment early, he had an exceptionally good chance of beating the disease.”

                      Yes but those opinions are based on populations. There is no way to know if Jobs was going to die anyway or would have been cured (so no ‘oops’). Stats are great for public health care, but not so great with individual care. Give people access to information, support, treatments across the spectrum then let people make their own choices I reckon (or roll their own dice as CV puts it). Stop telling them are going to die (doctors and alt practioners alike) because that will affect the outcomes too.

                  • bad12 …
                    4 February 2014 at 7:11 pm

                    Chooky, think i will go with the veg diet for the year and see if the numbers drop on the blood test, apparently high enough to be both a diabetic and on the verge of major heart problems,

                    Pretty sure Molasses is loaded with sugar???, as for the vitamins a fruit/ vege diet including silver beet delivers most needed along with the iron,

                    From what i have read the white of the egg is not so good with the yolk being loaded with goodies including a massive dose of vitamin D, a square inch of cheddar cheese is also said to be loaded with D,

                    Tonights tea was a vege bake including: spuds,kumara,pumpkin,carrot,silver-beet,mushrooms,broccoli, and, topped of with some finely sliced raw spring onions,

                    If there weren’t enough vitamins and minerals in that lot then i will eat your cat…

                    • Belladonna …
                      4 February 2014 at 7:30 pm

                      bad12, if you have potential heart problems google Dr Caldwell Esselstyn and his son Rip Esselstyn for information on a vegan diet and heart disease. Caldwell Esselstyn is a respected heart surgeon in USA and his son Rip was a fireman who convinced his colleagues, especially those with dangerously high cholestrol to adapt a vegan diet. They both have good utube clips and cookbooks that I think would appeal to those wanting a filling but healthy diet. I am assuming you are a male and males seem to generally like more substantial meals than the lighter meals often preferred by females (generalising here). There is a clip on National Radio archives with an interview Kim did with Caldwell Esselstyn. You might be interested in checking this and the utube clips out. Their recipe books are in some libraries. Congrats on the lifestyle change.

                    • phillip ure …
                      4 February 2014 at 8:12 pm

                      bad..i wd second belladonnas’ recommendation on the good doctor ess…

                      ..esp. the kim hill interview..(nat-rad archives..)

                      ..and here are my esselstyn archives…

                      http://whoar.co.nz/?s=dr+esselstyn

                      phillip ure..

                    • Chooky …
                      5 February 2014 at 8:32 am

                      bad 12…lol…sounds good ….and you will not eat my cat (Valentino, otherwise known as Retard)…hope no cats go missing in your area….cat stew…rather like rabbit I would think

                    • Chooky …
                      5 February 2014 at 10:32 am

                      @bad 12…look up molasses….it is the goodness from sugar cane which is left over from white refined sugar…it isnt that sweet or sugary…more like malt

            • Belladonna 4.2.2.2.2.3
              4 February 2014 at 2:52 pm

              Personally I prefer Linda McCartney’s vegan sausages to Tonzu’s version. A family member tried some of the vegan sausages and commented that you couldnt tell the difference between the LMcC product and meat sausages – no blood and guts is a bonus.

          • Chooky 4.2.2.2.3
            4 February 2014 at 4:19 pm

            …will keep an eye out for them…. thanks!

        • Ad 4.2.2.3
          4 February 2014 at 9:20 am

          Sorry. Clearly I skipped it.
          I think I’ve been backed into a corner at a bad party.

    • QoT 4.3
      4 February 2014 at 9:42 pm

      I understand it suits your “meat-eaters are too stupid to know where meat comes from” agenda, phil, but the fact is most people can actually tell the difference between humane killing and unnecessary cruelty.

      And I fucking love bacon. It comes from delicious, delicious pigs.

      • Chooky 4.3.1
        5 February 2014 at 10:17 am

        lol…yu wont be getting my little piggy ….Martha

      • phillip ure 4.3.2
        5 February 2014 at 10:22 am

        @qot..

        ..you do like to take yr ignorances out for a regular walk/airing..

        ..don’t you..?

        ..a ‘progressive’..?..are you..?..

        ..and is that pig-fat dripping off yr chin..?

        ..and unlike you..as one who ‘knows’ but clearly cares not/little..

        ..most people don’t know/think about –

        – the pain beneath their plates..

        ..phillip ure..

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 5.1
      4 February 2014 at 7:53 am

      Reality and its liberal bias.

    • phillip ure 5.2
      4 February 2014 at 7:58 am

      @ arand..

      ..widespread poverty/inequality..hungry children..the rich getting ever richer..the poor getting ever poorer..

      ..the return of third world diseases..

      ..our rivers/waterways full of shit/pollutants..

      ..our environment pretty much trashed..

      ..and getting more trashed every day..

      ..the govt spying on all of us..letting american spooks spy all over us..

      ..selling our commonly-owned/paid-for assets..

      ..i could go on and on..

      ..and..except for those gilded-few..

      ..it all sounds pretty crap to me..

      ..for the rest of us..

      ..with more future under these scumbags..

      ..looking/promising..to be even crappier..

      ..which is all why we must throw the bastards out..

      ..phillip ure..

      • Ad 5.2.1
        4 February 2014 at 8:02 am

        And you tell that to the young people of today, and they won’t believe you.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 5.2.2
        4 February 2014 at 8:11 am

        Um Phil. Arandar linked to an article about German housing law.

        Just sayin’…

        • phillip ure 5.2.2.1
          4 February 2014 at 8:17 am

          @oan..i jumped the gun..thought a govt apology was being peddled..

          ..(tho’ i do stand by that summary..eh..?..it’ll do for now..)

          ..’just saying!..’

          phillip ure..

    • srylands 5.3
      4 February 2014 at 8:22 am

      Interesting article. We should start here:

      “A key to the story is that German municipal authorities consistently increase housing supply by releasing land for development on a regular basis.”

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 5.3.1
        4 February 2014 at 8:25 am

        Another is that they regulate house prices.

        • miravox 5.3.1.1
          4 February 2014 at 9:47 am

          And ensure the form of housing that is required is built – not McMansions because there is more profit it them.

          And the land that is released is land the council deems suitable (including brownfield sites), not some random farm that a developer has deemed a nice little earner.

      • freedom 5.3.2
        4 February 2014 at 8:36 am

        and build sensible practical functioning public transport systems to service those developments

        • phillip ure 5.3.2.1
          4 February 2014 at 9:07 am

          and have a social support system guaranteeing no poverty/third world poverty-diseases..

          ..amongst their people/citizens..

          ..looks like we won the war(s)..

          ..and lost the peace..

          ..eh..?

          ..for those who sacrificed so much/their lives..

          ..’hollow’ victories..

          ..eh..?

          phillip ure..

    • miravox 5.4
      4 February 2014 at 9:38 am

      +1 Arandar.

      I’m pretty convinced that intervention in the economy and active housing planning and rent controls (plus works councils) that have been instrumental in limiting growth in inequality and social ills since 2008 in Germany’s neighbour, where I live.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.5
      4 February 2014 at 12:18 pm

      The only real problem I have with that is this bit:

      To cap it all, ownership of a home is subject to a serious consumption tax, while landlords are encouraged by favorable tax treatment to maximize the availability of rental properties.

      Encouraging rentier behaviour is generally bad for society. I’m all for encouragement of renting but have the state own the rentals and not private landlords.

  6. AWW 6
    4 February 2014 at 7:53 am

    Idea for those of us who have difficulty finding clothes in our size (usually ladies over size 16). It’s a campaign where you leave the store without buying, but you also hand them this nifty little note/card.

    http://tangerina.co.nz/2014/01/29/the-clothes-calling-card-campaign/

  7. Tracey 7
    4 February 2014 at 7:56 am

    If john key is speaking but no one can hear him, is he still lying?

    • phillip ure 7.1
      4 February 2014 at 8:04 am

      if john key spoke the truth..

      ..would the universe shudder in shock..?

      ..key is so programmed to lie..

      ..(his latest farcical claim the greens ‘play dirty’..

      ..being laugh-out-of-the-room/fall-off-the-chair material..

      ..and definitely a shark-jump..from key..)

      ..that his dreams are all lies..

      ..his whole life is a web of lies..

      ..eh..?

      ..his money-trader past programmed him to lie..as a way of life..

      ..and to one-up/screw everyone else..when/wherever possible..

      ..he is just doing what he trained to do..

      ..phillip ure..

  8. ScottGN 8
    4 February 2014 at 8:01 am

    Apparently John Key ‘expects’ trouble at Waitangi this year, ‘It’s Waitangi after all’ he said. What he means is that he’d love nothing more than a bit race-based strife to motivate the troops in election year. What an arsehole.

    • framu 8.1
      4 February 2014 at 8:17 am

      just saw the herald headline “PM stirs racial division for political purposes” oh…. wait…. hold on

    • Ad 8.2
      4 February 2014 at 8:18 am

      He could have said what most politicians forced to go there think: that it’s a tired agit-prop formula of has-beens, crooks and blow-hards who want to enjoy embarrassing the New Zealand viewing public with a minor regional grotesque theatre, just as they have for a decade, where any dignity you might find at say ANZAC Day or even a regional Kapa Haka champs or in fact the Kaikohe demolition derby is despite the presence of every Maori and national leader you could find nowhere on anyone’s agenda, and on behalf of all of Northland’s wretched poverty, child abuse, rural squalor, unemployment, disease, undereducation, dope economy, lethargy, school suicide pacts, and of course freshly minted Treaty deals achieving nothing but brand new marae used once every three months on a reunion and nothing else, they got the best and brightest dealmakers in the country together and resolutely failed again to even attempt to put something, anything, to them that would turn Northland’s toxic sludge of anomistic gruelling sideways violence and unfocused rage into producing even the merest zephyr of hope or leadership or indeed any other positive abstract noun you could think of.

      • marty mars 8.2.1
        4 February 2014 at 8:38 am

        what’s a ‘zephyr of hope’?

        oh and imo your diatribe is well overdone (as in chocka full of cliches) but i agree about the politicians being tired has-beens, crooks and blow-hards. the thing is they want votes and so they have to pretend – thus they turn up – so hardly ‘forced’ there Ad.

      • Pasupial 8.2.2
        4 February 2014 at 9:12 am

        Ad

        I’m not sure where to start with that “toxic sludge” of a paragraph/ sentence. Waitangi day is not about; “the New Zealand viewing public”, it is a recognition of a treaty between Māori and the Crown that has been only partially fulfilled. But is also the founding document of modern Aotearoa/ NZ (if you ignore the 1835 declaration of independence, as most do).

        Your reference to; “freshly minted Treaty deals achieving nothing but brand new marae”, is in error on many levels as it ignores such a large amount of culture and history. I will just point out that “marae atea” properly refers to the open courtyard/ meeting ground which is wāhi tapu; and so a brand new marae would be rather poorly utilised as it wouldn’t yet have built up the tradition of usage as a focus for community. However, I assume that you refer to refurbishment of wharenui and that you are simply ignorant of the patterns of marae use by its associated community.

        But yes, more could be done by both Māori & Pākehā leaders to mitigate the deprivation of Northland communities.

        • Ad 8.2.2.1
          4 February 2014 at 9:25 am

          Best of luck turning what it is into what it should be.
          In my northland family farm valley, five marae, all post settlement, all new builds over $2m, nothing but gorse and dead cars.

          • marty mars 8.2.2.1.1
            4 February 2014 at 9:41 am

            What the??? Are you really sure that there is nothing but gorse and dead cars there Ad and by really sure I mean really sure because it sounds a bit dicey really – your description that is – a bit like looking from the outside and not really seeing sort of thing.

          • weka 8.2.2.1.2
            4 February 2014 at 9:45 am

            Do you mean that all the marae have been abandoned?

            edit: what marty said.

            • Ad 8.2.2.1.2.1
              4 February 2014 at 9:50 am

              No, I mean farms in my valley provided by Landcorp under Treaty of Waitangi settlement within Northland that were previously thriving businesses have reverted to gorse.

              • weka …
                4 February 2014 at 10:24 am

                Still not sure what your point is, although I have to admire how succinctly you have encapsulated the ongoing issues of colonisation in NZ within one sentence.

                Do you mean that farm businesses have more inherent value than marae?

                Or are you trying to tie the Landcorp sales/transfers to poverty in Northland?

                • Ad …
                  4 February 2014 at 10:37 am

                  Waitangi Day could be the moment, as I describe below, where people show and tell the practical difference to people’s lives that a Treaty settlement has made. It resolutely isn’t.
                  Treaty of Waitangi settlements in Northland should be once in a generation opportunities for Northland. What I have seen instead in the far north is many highly productive farms – hundreds and hundreds of acres – revert straight after settlement to gorse. A great potential for good squandered. Take any road left after Waipapa Landing and see for yourself.

                  • framu …
                    4 February 2014 at 11:08 am

                    perhaps theres more going on, with a longer time frame in mind than what you can see over the fence? Did you dig any deeper?

                    not saying your wrong – just that lots of iwi plans around settlement $ can have multigenerational time frames and span many interlinked projects, and not everything neccessarily fits a mainstream concept of productive land use

                    in short – who says any iwi has to do things they way we think they should?

                    cant remember where i heard it, but i listened to a great long form interview with tamati kruger (i think) where he explained why settlement $ take so long to bear fruit for the wider iwi, and that it doesnt fit what the business world sees as a logical business growth pathway – because its, you know, not the same thing

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 11:18 am

                      Excellent question posed there about “Who the hell am I?” etc. Here’s some evaluative matrices for the north:

                      – Number of years it takes to change a family from deprivation and going downhill to getting slightly better
                      – % change in unemployment
                      – % change in suicide
                      – % change in dental health or ‘overcrowding diseases’
                      – % change in young people who stay in the area
                      – % change in people who use drugs all day ( ie rather than for recreational use)

                      Or if you’re commercially minded: % change in the asset base, and in the distributions.

                      Shouldn’t matter what background you come from, if you or a collective you belong to get a massive opportunity, then choose a target, publish it, be held to it, be proud of it even. Simply, make a difference.

                      Not saying there aren’t success stories – there sure are and we don’t hear enough of them in the MSM. But there is sustained and chronic waste in the north. We should expect more of each other.

                  • Tracey …
                    4 February 2014 at 1:37 pm

                    Are you advocating a law telling people how they can use their land? land returned over a hundred years after being stolen or misappropriated and the economic benefits filtered elsewhere?

                  • weka …
                    4 February 2014 at 1:38 pm

                    “What I have seen instead in the far north is many highly productive farms – hundreds and hundreds of acres – revert straight after settlement to gorse. A great potential for good squandered.”

                    One of the best things that could happen in this country would be letting gorse grow on large tracts of land. Over time native forest will regenerate through the gorse (gorse acts as a nursery crop). I’ll take that over extractive, AGW-promoting, export farming alot of the time.

                    Have you considered that some Maori don’t consider industrial, British-style farming to be the epitome of land use?

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:34 pm

                      No he doesnt. Not even when its put to him. His model is the only model for land use despite it being a model that fucked over maori in the first place.

                      Feb 6 1840 was genuine… what followed including a few acts of parliament was not. Ururea raids were this century. No wonder some cry out ” what has really changed?”

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:15 pm

                      You are welcome to your gorse. More quietist retreats, amazing. Clearly that is the future you aspire to. Burn the speeches, eradicate the flunkies, and form a new agenda for Waitangi Day. Make it mean more than a picnic.

                    • weka …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:23 pm

                      I haven’t said anything about Waitangi Day. I’m still trying to understand what you meant when you said that Northland iwi were using treaty settlements to build marae then letting the land be left to gorse and rusty cars.

                      Try engaging with the actual points.

                    • McFlock …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:24 pm

                      so farming is the only valuable use of rural land, to hell with conservation and forestry reserves.

                      Lovely.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 4:08 pm

                      you wrote

                      “Key said most people enjoyed Waitangi Day, but it was “one or two” who used the media platform to push their own agendas.”

                      You gotta laugh at the irony, until you read the rest of the article. What a nasty little shit.”

                      Transference is a transparent kind of thing when you know what you are looking at

                  • RedBaronCV …
                    4 February 2014 at 8:49 pm

                    There’s forestry on a lot of the roads on the left after Waipapa landing and frankly the people of Northland are a great deal more gracious that you. Perhaps the issue is Talley’s with their shellfish beds over traditional gathering grounds and piles of holiday home owners wanting great roads for the five minutes a year that they are there.

                • McFlock …
                  4 February 2014 at 1:21 pm

                  nah, he’s saying that murrays have let farms lie fallow and become overgrown with noxious weeds, therefore they would have been better off if the land had remained stolen.

                  Or something.

                    • McFlock …
                      4 February 2014 at 1:38 pm

                      why do you give a shit what other people do with their land – assuming that they haven’t got a plan for it that doesn’t involve farming, anyway?

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:00 pm

                      I give a shit about what other people do with their land because we are in this together. What happens over on that land affects what happens on this land. In every respect, it takes a village.

                      If people think Northland is fine to let it return to gorse, and there’s no need
                      – to gain good jobs
                      – to aim for personal stewardship and drug aversion that gradually reverse depression and suicide rates
                      – achieve better public health outcomes because people have stopped lying in public about child abuse statistics
                      – better distributed dividends
                      – extra farm workers with children that reverse school closures
                      – plans for the future that reverse depopulation, roading and broadband infrastructure that decreases isolation,
                      and can keep all of that while letting Waitangi Day and its celebrations continue as they are, well, then you are simply lazy and hopeless and are consigning Northland to the wretched poverty that far too many find themselves in.

                      Stop defending the indefensible, burn your violins playing endless bleeding heart sonatas, and expect more from each other.

                    • McFlock …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:09 pm

                      just a question – could weka’s point about gorse being a transition to forest regrowth be valid?

                      In which case it would seem to be an iwi strategy to build up native forest reserves for quality of life reasons, over generations.

                      Because that would seem to address a lot of the points you raise that aren’t exclusively focused on $$, but more about identity, belonging, and self esteem.

                    • framu …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:14 pm

                      your joning dots to things that arent the same and your ignoring everything that is being said to you!

                      calm down

                      no one is excusing poverty in northland FFS! – people are just pointing out different cultures have different ways of looking at and addressing things

                    • framu …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:16 pm

                      “just a question – could weka’s point about gorse being a transition to forest regrowth be valid?”

                      yes its entirely valid, gorse provides a damn safe canopy for native seedlings to get to a height where they can withstand the impacts of animals – after a while the native plants grow above the gorse and rob it of sunlight thereby removing it

                      its a slow burner – but thats the idea

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:08 pm

                      just a question – could weka’s point about gorse being a transition to forest regrowth be valid?

                      Possibly and, in fact, seems to be the only way to eradicate gorse in NZ:

                      Gorse has been found to form a useful nursery for many species for native bush regeneration. When young, gorse bushes are very dense. As they grow older, they become ‘leggy’, and provide the ideal conditions for native seeds to germinate and grow. The native seedlings grow up through the gorse, cutting out its light and eventually replacing it. This technique is working successfully and within a short time frame at Hinewai Reserve on Banks Peninsula.

                      It could possibly be a more successful method of getting native forest back than actually going out to plant native trees.

                    • weka …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:15 pm

                      Regenerating native bush via gorse is pretty well accepted now. Hinewai on the Banks Peninsula is one exemplar (not much online about it though).

                      http://www.openspace.org.nz/Site/Managing_your_covenant/Restoration_information/revegetating_gorse.aspx

                      http://www.doc.govt.nz/publications/conservation/protecting-and-restoring-our-natural-heritage-a-practical-guide/native-ecosystems-and-their-management/

                      Ad, that list is mostly admirable. But Iwi using their settlements to build Marae isn’t what is preventing those things from being done. You seem to think that negative effects of colonisation can be fixed with money. I wish it were that simple. You also appear to be ignoring the structural issues within NZ society that prevent solutions to poverty (am pretty sure that your statement ” – better distributed dividends” didn’t apply to the Crown, local bodies, etc).

                      “I give a shit about what other people do with their land because we are in this together. What happens over on that land affects what happens on this land. In every respect, it takes a village.”

                      I have some sympathy for this. For instance, I think conventional farmers should be controlled if they can’t farm without polluting their own land, and the surrounding ecosystems. I also think that much could be done to return NZ to local economies as a way of mitigating AGW, but we would need to sanction telling people what to do with their land.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:29 pm

                      So on feb 06 2014, will you be sitting indoors all day bemoaning the wasted land in your northland family’s farm valley by maori or something else that is somehow more poignant a Waitangi Day than my intention to go to Eden park with a picnic to enjoy the time with my family and some friends (including someone who recently gained citizenshp)?

                  • Tracey …
                    4 February 2014 at 1:38 pm

                    Exactly

          • JK 8.2.2.1.3
            4 February 2014 at 4:37 pm

            Ad – at 8.2.2.1 – did your northland family have any marae before they received their settlement?

            And the other question I have is – are you talking about Far North iwi, or just northern west coast and Kaipara iwi ?

        • marty mars 8.2.2.2
          4 February 2014 at 9:36 am

          Pasupial – thank you for using macrons. Plus I agree with your analysis – good stuff.

          • Ad 8.2.2.2.1
            4 February 2014 at 9:45 am

            Guess we’ll have to wait for Waitangi Day to find out now.

            • marty mars 8.2.2.2.1.1
              4 February 2014 at 9:50 am

              How would you like the day to be Ad?

              • Ad …
                4 February 2014 at 10:09 am

                OK let’s go there.

                At minimum, when you have a meeting with most of Cabinet and Maori leadership present, have an agenda agreed with substance. You can fill in the substance. Make it worth that amount of political and billable time.

                Ideally, acknowledge the settlements completed that year. Where possible, reflect on the differences made by one or two settlements, the plans forged on their base. Form an expectation that the next settlement conference will be held right there.

                Turn up with a couple of results that reflect on the targets from last time.

                Release relevant parts of the central government budget there, every year. Bring something to the table, form an expectation about it.

                Ban all abstract nouns from ever being spoken. Maybe that’s going too far.

                For a bit of overreach: re-start the discussion about New Zealand’s constitution right there. Make it the ground upon which constitutional change is started. Chart the horizon.

                • Flip …
                  4 February 2014 at 10:32 am

                  Good thoughts.

                • marty mars …
                  4 February 2014 at 10:47 am

                  excuse my ignorance but do you see the day as a continuation of the Treaty signing (way back when) in that both parties (to that treaty) get together officially for a catch up, if so – to what point?

                  I’m not saying it isn’t an idea worth considering but for me it seems very dry – you know ‘billable time’ and whatnot. And i wonder if the ‘conversation’ would actually be two-way rather than the continuing and continuous neverending one-way conversation so beloved by politicians today and yesterday – with them doing the talking of course.

                  • Ad …
                    4 February 2014 at 10:53 am

                    Look, you asked how I would like it to be.
                    So step up yourself.

                    • marty mars …
                      4 February 2014 at 11:08 am

                      no need to go septic – just trying to suss what you’re saying out.

                      For me – unless there is true equality and tino rangatiratanga it is just a sham day for sham feelings of sham unity to placate sham politicians and sham supporters of those politicians to continue to take, take and take even more from the indigenous inhabitants of the land. How we would create an appropriate day of actions and reflection around that sentiment i’m not sure 🙂

                      I would say most if not all Iwi let their people know what their Treaty settlements have been used for and upgrading marae seems like a totally appropriate way of utilizing some of the approximate 3% recompense for the atrocities, including stealing the land, that have occurred over the years.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 1:41 pm

                      “For me – unless there is true equality and tino rangatiratanga it is just a sham day for sham feelings of sham unity to placate sham politicians and sham supporters of those politicians to continue to take, take and take even more from the indigenous inhabitants of the land. How we would create an appropriate day of actions and reflection around that sentiment i’m not sure 🙂

                      I would say most if not all Iwi let their people know what their Treaty settlements have been used for and upgrading marae seems like a totally appropriate way of utilizing some of the approximate 3% recompense for the atrocities, including stealing the land, that have occurred over the years.”

                      Thanks for writing what I am thinking, so well.

                  • Ad …
                    4 February 2014 at 11:20 am

                    Reply function below your last one has disappeared.
                    Your disappointment matches mine.

                • Tracey …
                  4 February 2014 at 1:39 pm

                  kind of a day to pretend it is all great when clearly a number don’;t think it is? Te Ururewa ring any bells… that was this century.

                  • Ad …
                    4 February 2014 at 1:43 pm

                    More like a day to present something concrete and real that will improve the lives of real people right now.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:20 pm

                      Like good friday and queens birthday?

                      Warning

                      Irony alert

                      Key said most people enjoyed Waitangi Day, but it was “one or two” who used the media platform to push their own agendas.

                      “Most people go to Waitangi to have a great time but regrettably, there are one or two people who go there to cause trouble and use the media as a way of advancing their own cause or their own issues,” he said.

                    • framu …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:21 pm

                      “it’s a tired agit-prop formula of has-beens, crooks and blow-hards who want to enjoy embarrassing the New Zealand viewing public with a minor regional grotesque theatre, just as they have for a decade”

                      did you or did you not open with this?

                      major disconnect going on

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:28 pm

                      Framu

                      +1

                      I thought maybe it was just me getting mixed messages from Ads posts.

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 4:23 pm

                      There is something about Waitangi Day at Waitangi, more specific, more peculiar, indeed more sacred to New Zealand that it makes their blood boil when its main event goes so wrong year after year. It makes their blood boil because something sacred is being trashed. Why does it always go so wrong there (for the sake of argument why wrong there and at no other celebration on that day)?

                      It goes so wrong there because it is a theatre of lies like no other.

                      I am certainly not presuming either that everything should be forgotten or everything could indeed be started again, tabula rasa, on the Treaty grounds. And let’s say, for argument’s sake, that there will always be protesters about something.

                      But we are heading for a horizon in which the settlements are done. We need to imagine that horizon for what could be. And make that the new commemoration. The old form is in my view irredeemable. Far, far bigger than the annual stirring of patriotism at ANZC Day even at its’ centenary.

                      I couldn’t think of anything worse than this being just another day off. Waitangi Day at Waitangi can regain some of its old sacral (rather than profaned) force if it aspires for people. In fact, starts with reading and building on the Treaty of Waitangi itself.

                      We really should together write a new Treaty of Waitangi there. We really should have a constitutional debate right there. Make the day mean something for every new Zealander who witnesses it. Oh sure that’s a reach. So we reach.

                      Front and centre of that debate is the wellbeing of people. In the most fundamental way, this is about how peoples settle the land. How we relate to it, take care and own and share it. In that grounding of place to people is the renewed sacred, in which the profane is cleansed with a new agreement, a new way of approaching each other.

                      That of course is not a continuance of how things are right now. It will take collective will – and shared agendas, resources, protocols – to happen. But it must. Better?

                    • McFlock …
                      4 February 2014 at 4:35 pm

                      The preambles this year seem to be going fine, despite the earnest bleats of someone who wasn’t there.

                • Tracey …
                  4 February 2014 at 2:27 pm

                  What makes you think you get to put an agenda to the p on waitangi day?

                  You are not describing a day of commemoration you are describing a political policy workshop.

                  • Ad …
                    4 February 2014 at 2:41 pm

                    I know you like things the way they are.

                    I am dissatisfied with the usual Waitangi Day, and am describing an alternative.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:44 pm

                      you want social and economic change for nothland. Good for you. BUT a day off for the nation may not be the best use of your ideas. Have you been to see the MP’s in northland and discussed it with them?

                      as for waitangi day. i am going with famnily and friends, with a picnic, tot he cricket.

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:52 pm

                      If all you can do is commemorate Waitangi Day with a picnic, then you have a duller, more quietiest disposition than any of your comments today suggested. That is the heart of a real conservative.

                      Expect more from each other. That’s not Ghandi. That’s me.

                    • framu …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:56 pm

                      it might help if you stop jumping to conclusions and actually read the replies to you

                      your accusing people of holding views they dont claim even when they have gone to some length to explain themselves

                      your now starting to throw the insults round and appear to be getting a tad frustrated when theres no need for it

                      calm down

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:21 pm

                      And so it begins, as usual…

                      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9684096/Waitangi-disgrace-in-dispute

                      Me calm down? Please.

                      What concrete action would you want to come out of this day, instead?

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:23 pm

                      “you want social and economic change for nothland. Good for you. BUT a day off for the nation may not be the best use of your ideas. Have you been to see the MP’s in northland and discussed it with them?”

                      You expect moRe from who, all of us here? BUT you wont go to waitangi to express your views, wont visit with local Mps to discuss your ideas…. but WE are holding you back?

                      You are describing a systemic political and economic change, not a different way to celebrate Feb 06. You also seem to want to compel a group of people to use their land in a particular way. If you stay on your northland family’s farm valley and bemoan Waitangi day for not being real enough, you won’t be surprised when nothing changes. Will you?

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:25 pm

                      The Pm is making political hay, but let me ask you again,

                      why do you expect concrete change emanating from Waitangi day, when you don’t from easter friday/sunday, labour day, anzac day, christmas and boxing days?

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:35 pm

                      Because I am not expecting Jesus to arrive at Waitangi Day.

                      Sadly, only John Key, and disciples who run the country.

                    • framu …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:41 pm

                      look AD – when i say calm down – it helps if you respond calmly

                      if you read the article you link to it points out that it is key making the claims of bad behaviour but “Others questioned how the prime minister could comment on an event he hadn’t seen. ”

                      half of the article refutes the very thing you are claiming it says!

                      so – calm down

                      your coming across as a blow hard of the highest order

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:58 pm

                      Ad

                      can you have another go at my questions to you immediately above at

                      3:23 and 3:25 pm

      • Tracey 8.2.3
        4 February 2014 at 1:34 pm

        Oh dear, some Maori not behaving as you wish? I wonder how calm you would be about a holiday that marked the anniversary of the theft of your family’s land and in many cases lives? The scots are still bitter about the english… and several hundreds of years have passed.

        • Ad 8.2.3.1
          4 February 2014 at 1:49 pm

          You are welcome to go to Waitangi and enjoy the same thing year after year. Off you go and love it close to your heart.
          I expect something better.

          • McFlock 8.2.3.1.1
            4 February 2014 at 2:01 pm

            I expect something better.

            pretty dances, nice speeches thanking the government very much for generational fraud, that sort of thing?

            • Ad 8.2.3.1.1.1
              4 February 2014 at 2:09 pm

              I responded to Marty Mars with a number of concrete proposals, to which MartyMars was not able to respond despite encouragement. Why don’t you have a go?

              • McFlock …
                4 February 2014 at 2:14 pm

                k then.
                same old same old. It’s honest. If people are pissed off, why shouldn’t they be allowed to express it?

                • Ad …
                  4 February 2014 at 2:16 pm

                  Shit in, shit out.
                  Year after year.

                  Start with an ideal and aim for it.
                  What ideals would you aim for on Waitangi Day, McFlock?

                  • Tracey …
                    4 February 2014 at 2:24 pm

                    Isnt it enough that some recall the theft in their past… some like the day off and some use it for point scoring.

                    Much better than easter when people pretend a guy rose from the dead.

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:32 pm

                      Nope. Not anywhere near enough. For all the reasons listed above. Shift to Kaitaia, shift your own child (or one close to you) to Kaitaia Primary. See if your views change.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:38 pm

                      Why dont you go on thursday and make the points you have spent a couple of hours making here? Be the change you want to see on waitangi day (apologies to gandhi)

                  • McFlock …
                    4 February 2014 at 2:36 pm

                    Waitangi Day’s fine.

                    The “ideal” we need to be reaching for is when historical grievances and iniquities have been addressed to the point that the anniversary of the Treaty is not viewed by some as a thin veneer plastered over the major structural problems we have in our society.

                    edit: although I’d fucking love it if the PM weren’t trying as hard as possible to invent conflict. Fucker’s looking to play the riot card.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:46 pm

                      Agree +100

                      he’s doing an orewa of sorts… it’s red-neck and ignoramus voter-gathering time by the nats.

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:47 pm

                      Vastly disagree.

                      The Crown and Maori will have an enduring relationship lasting far beyond the completion of settlements.

                      Hopefully, there will be a Waitangi Day in future which is, precisely, a policy workshop: with shared goals, shared resources and budgets, governance support where asked for, and a shared future. Boring. Not the least televisual. Shorn of faux-royals and military wank. Not exciting. Real.

                      Simply a summit with concrete goals, no blather, just the commitment to tangibly improve real lives.

                    • McFlock …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:53 pm

                      Waitangi Day is not about governance – it’s about our identity as a nation.

                      Policy engagement needs to be constant, not a single-day-of-the-year thing.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 2:59 pm

                      “Hopefully, there will be a Waitangi Day in future which is, precisely, a policy workshop: with shared goals, shared resources and budgets, governance support where asked for, and a shared future. Boring. Not the least televisual. Shorn of faux-royals and military wank. Not exciting. Real.”

                      Isnt that what parliamentarians and local interest groups are tasked with??

                    • weka …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:20 pm

                      “Key said most people enjoyed Waitangi Day, but it was “one or two” who used the media platform to push their own agendas.”

                      You gotta laugh at the irony, until you read the rest of the article. What a nasty little shit.

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:37 pm

                      If you think Waitangi Day is not about governance I recommend you read the Treaty again. It’s the whole shooting match.

                    • weka …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:39 pm

                      I found this interesting reading today, esp the history.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waitangi_Day

                    • McFlock …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:49 pm

                      If you think Waitangi Day is not about governance I recommend you read the Treaty again. It’s the whole shooting match.

                      The day is not the Treaty. There is nothing in the ToW or legislative framework that requires a single policy discussion to occur on the anniversary. You’re welcome to point out the regulation or law or treaty clause that says otherwise.

                      The day is, however, and excellent time to remember the roots of our nation – warts (i.e. betrayals, thefts and injustices) and all.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 4:05 pm

                      “If you think Waitangi Day is not about governance I recommend you read the Treaty again. It’s the whole shooting match.”

                      What is Labour Day about? Christmas Day? Easter?

                      Waitangi Day is a commemoration day, you are confusing that with the Treaty, poverty in Northland, land use and other things. It’s like you have the picture in the wrong frame, or vice versa.

              • marty mars …
                4 February 2014 at 4:33 pm

                Oh Ad – just because i haven’t responded yet doesn’t mean I can’t or won’t but after i’ve finished working…

          • Tracey 8.2.3.1.2
            4 February 2014 at 2:44 pm

            I dont go to Waitangi, do you?

            • Ad 8.2.3.1.2.1
              4 February 2014 at 2:48 pm

              Not in its current state, which is precisely my point.

              • framu …
                4 February 2014 at 3:01 pm

                but i thought you knew whats been happening there every year? You claim as such down the page.

                Could it be your forming your opinion of the day from the media?

              • Tracey …
                4 February 2014 at 3:02 pm

                Is it your point? You want every NZer to go to Waitangi on Feb 06 each year, that is your point?

                I’ve been there at different times, stood in the treaty grounds and looked across the water to the islands and so forth., Gorgeous, the heart of NZ you might say but I am confused about what message/point you are making.

                • framu …
                  4 February 2014 at 3:06 pm

                  ” I am confused about what message/point you are making.”

                  your not the only one

                  • Ad …
                    4 February 2014 at 3:28 pm

                    Try this.

                    Waitangi Day is currently an embarrassing waste of time, money, and leadership.

                    It should be rebuilt from the ground up.

                    It should be restructured to address and deliver for the many poor Maori in Northland.

                    Currently it’s a series of media set pieces where people deliberately shame each other.

                    We will not be proud of Waitangi Day until Waitangi Day reforms itself.

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:34 pm

                      And will your contribution to this change stop with your posts here?

                      here is the crux, you equate Waitangi Day with the posturing at Waitangi and are assuming the entire country reflects that? I thought your issue was with the Day, not the one event televised of the day.

                      Are you even aware of how many celebrations on marae and public places go on on Feb 06 each year in this country, without politicians doing their versions of orewa speeches and the like?

                      Waitangi day is about celebrating the coming together of different peoples to form a partnership.

                      It seems your vitriol is reserved not for one day a year per se, but the media coverage of one small part of one day of the year.

                      There are people fighting hard and working hard every day to make the very changes you speak of. Have you asked anyone in the media why they focus as the do?

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:44 pm

                      Yes, I am focussing on Waitangi Day as expressed at Waitangi.

                      Have never commented on any other celebration of the day elsewhere.

                      I don’t presume to critique any celebration other than the one attended by the Prime Minister, Governor-General, Leader of the Opposition, the major muriwhenua chiefs, and assorted poo-bah’s. And it’s relation to Maori in Northland.

                      So no, this isn’t an argument about everything and how we can change everything. It has been specific to Northland and Waitangi itself from the very beginning.

                      And no, it’s not the same as Mother’s Day, Valentine’s Day, Arbour Day, or indeed the Smith and Caughey’s Sale. It’s Waitangi Day.

                    • framu …
                      4 February 2014 at 3:49 pm

                      “It should be rebuilt from the ground up.”

                      let me guess.. in your vision of things right? because thats they way your behaving mate. Theres been plenty of reasoned discussion from many people about this – and youve dont everything possible to ignore everything beeing said and all your doing is getting pissy that no one seems to agree with you

                      a lot of what you say will find agreement with many here – but its not as black and white as you paint it

                      your being a text book example of exactly why waitangi cant progress beyond that which upsets you so – to busy pointing the finger and bitching and moaning to stop, understand and appreciate the many facets and angles that the issue and day contains

                      pretty fucking sad

                    • Tracey …
                      4 February 2014 at 4:30 pm

                      And how do you intend contributing to this change?

                    • JK …
                      4 February 2014 at 4:59 pm

                      I’m entering a bit late onto this thread – have only just come across it – so I hope Ad is still around to answer my comments.

                      I’m a bit puzzled by your comments, Ad. First about your Northland valley farm and marae, and then the reference to living in Kaitaia, and also the references to the actual Waitangi Day.

                      The reason I’m puzzled about the Northland valley farm and marae and Kaitaia is that at first I thought you were referring to one of the very small northern iwi who have had the legislation finalised on their Treaty settlements – and these are the iwi based around the Kaipara, and Dargaville and the Waipoua Forest.

                      But Kaitaia is no-where near these places.

                      I hadn’t thought any other iwi in the north had yet reached the final legislative stage of their Treaty settlements.

                      But maybe you think they have, and maybe the land which you state is now going to waste, has been “land banked” for all the other Treaty settlements still to come, but has not yet been handed across.

                      As to Waitangi Day – there IS a lot of celebration that goes on there.

                      But also there IS a great deal of reminder from Maori that Treaty Settlements are not yet complete, and that legislation continues to be passed in the NZ Parliament which undermines the rights of Maori, and all other New Zealanders, to have some part in decision-making which affects their environments – and I’m referring now directly to the Crown Minerals Act, and to the legislation which has allowed multi-nationals to come in and explore for oil, gold, etc without having to take responsibility for the damage they invariably do for the environment.

                      Until New Zealand as a whole starts treating Maori as it looks in our long-standing (since Colonial Days) Coat-of-Arms (a white person on one side of the shield, and a brown person on the other) – ie equal partners in decision-making – then I guess there will continue to be protests at Waitangi.

                    • Ad …
                      4 February 2014 at 5:51 pm

                      JK there are plenty of valleys in the far north with settlements, well beyond Dargaville and Waipoua.

                      No, the valleys I have seen have had their land returned, both from private owners who had explicit caveats about the Treaty when they bought it, and from the Crown agencies. What has been done with too many of them after settlement is a travesty. And I mean ridge after ridge.

                      In the posts I have made today, I have argued for something fundamentally refreshed at Waitangi on Waitangi Day. An event which is televisually boring, grounded into our common relationship to the land, practical, aspirational, and is of high importance and honour to everyone attending.

                      It’s planning for the everyone-is-settled moment, plans are formed for making the most of it, iwi get the support they need, and the common conversation is about addressing the devastating poverty of Northland.

                  • Ad …
                    4 February 2014 at 4:39 pm

                    I intend to contribute to this change by changing the argument, and getting people to expect more. And here is as good a place to start as any.

                    You asked me to re-answer your questions above and I have done so.

    • Tracey 8.3
      4 February 2014 at 1:33 pm

      first year he hasnt talked the possibilities down… doing an orewa speech without saying the words?

  9. Ron 9
    4 February 2014 at 8:07 am

    I note that Pundits Poll of Polls has not been updated since 2013. Someone having a long summer vacation maybe?

    • Not a PS Staffer 9.1
      4 February 2014 at 9:27 am

      Farrar likes delivering only good news to the Nats!!

      I’d say he does not want to commit a view on the status of Winston and the implications of NZF having 6 seats at the next election. He probably told the Nats that his polling showed that Winston would not get hear the 5%.

      • veutoviper 9.1.1
        4 February 2014 at 10:09 am

        As far as I am aware, the Pundit Poll of Polls has nothing to do with Farrar and Kiwiblog or Curia. It is the Pundit website’s amalgamation of poll results. I suggest Ron contacts Pundit and raises it with them.

        • Not a PS Staffer 9.1.1.1
          4 February 2014 at 1:03 pm

          veutoviper, you are right. I was thinking of Curia.
          I received my monthly Curia update yesterday and it too had the old stats

      • Tracey 9.1.2
        4 February 2014 at 1:42 pm

        do you know if he has updated his urgency analysis he did last year?

  10. Chooky 10
    4 February 2014 at 8:16 am

    To save our rivers the way we used to know them as kids …..cool sheets of clean sparkling water moving over the stones ….

    https://my.greens.org.nz/sites/all/modules/civicrm/extern/url.php?u=177360&qid=16718682

    “Do you have memories of your first trip of the summer down to the river? That first golden hot day, with the old inner tube under your arm, checking how the winter floods have cleared out the deep spot?

    These are memories that our children’s children should be able to treasure and we need strong water rules to ensure that our rivers are safe for swimming and that a trip down to the river doesn’t mean checking a website to see if it’s safe to swim today.

    If you want sparkling rivers that you can actually plunge in, not just paddle in, then make a quick submission on the Government’s proposed water standards.

    The more people who sign the stronger our voice will be so please spread the word and ask your friends and family to stand up for swimmable rivers too”…from Eugene Sage.

  11. captain hook 11
    4 February 2014 at 8:47 am

    workers of the world send me money. You have nothing to lose but your change!

  12. phil 12
    4 February 2014 at 8:59 am

    Notable that the title isn’t “Keeping it 100% Pure”. The pollution of our beautiful rivers is a tragedy and National shame. And just wait for all the Canterbury dairy cows start excreting…. oh wait, they already have faecal pollution in Darfield, just down the road from Synlait.

    • Will@Welly 12.1
      4 February 2014 at 11:39 am

      Dunsandel had a problem a few years ago, with a “strong” odour/taste in it’s well water. Most of the water in the plains is drawn from the aquifers deep down. Other countries have experienced their aquifers being depleted by too much water being drawn out, we are both drawing out too much, but polluting the land which will eventually pollute those same aquifers. We are truly living in a fool’s paradise.

      • Ad 12.1.1
        4 February 2014 at 12:06 pm

        Check out Alexandra: well over 5,000 people now, almost completely surrounded by dairy conversions. No septic system for the town, and fully fed by artesian groundwater.

        Clyde, same area, about 3,000. Same.

        Local government utterly asleep at the wheel, and fecal coliform counts expanding deeper into the subsoil, ever closer to the water wells.

        • Tracey 12.1.1.1
          4 February 2014 at 1:43 pm

          But the irrigation council has done a survey which states most kiwis understand irrigation, so everything must be ok, right?

          • Ad 12.1.1.1.1
            4 February 2014 at 2:14 pm

            It is a quandary.

            Dairy is our best chance (finally we have one after 30 years of deregulation!) to break out of the low-value agrarian economy into a higher-skill, higher-technology, higher-capital one. The next step to a version of the Nokia path, but better because we are taking longer.

            But we are not aiming for the value-add end of foods. We are not protecting our rivers. We are not protecting our land and businesses from foreign ownership.

            I hope Cunliffe’s next speech starts to chart a path through this. It is a freaking hard one to cut through.

            • weka 12.1.1.1.1.1
              4 February 2014 at 3:35 pm

              It’s not a quandry. There is no way to farm industrial, export dairy and not pollute (and it’s not just water that is being damaged). It’s just not physically possible.

              We could instead convert to local economies that provide long term jobs and ways of making a living that aren’t dependend on the ephemera of things like tourism or boom/bust industries like dairy. Local economies would also better protect and conserve the environment, including AGW mitigation.

              • Ad …
                4 February 2014 at 3:50 pm

                Well we could, but that’s not the momentum or direction the economy is taking. Dairy is here to stay and is accelerating its dominance.

              • Flip …
                5 February 2014 at 7:20 am

                Dairying is a commodity industry thus price driven. Price pressure forces exploitation and mechanisation. Not good from an environmental perspective or quality work.
                It is dependent on fossil fuels so that will force prices up demanding greater efficiency and scale over time. NZ needs to look more at a weightless economy. (one that does not depend on fossil fuels to shift people or stuff to distant markets)

                @Ad
                Agree.

            • Tracey 12.1.1.1.1.2
              4 February 2014 at 4:01 pm

              I was mocking the irrigation council. I am fundamentally opposed to irrigation for thos ein drought tending regions to convert to dairy.

              3)% of our economy depends on dairy. this govt sees that as positive, I see it as a warning. 30% is too large a dependency in an industry which is increasingly mechanised… not a true job creator.

  13. ianmac 13
    4 February 2014 at 9:07 am

    Tom Scott has an apt cartoon re the spiteful Collins and Tolley.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/cartoons/

  14. adam 14
    4 February 2014 at 9:14 am

    I wonder how much of this applies here. http://www.takepart.com/feature/2014/01/22/prison-new-mental-hospital?cmpid=tp-ptnr-upworthy My Guess, much of the same stuff happens here , just in different forms/methods. Great read very insightful, will get brain going.

    And because if it’s happening in America, how long before it happens here? LINK. http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/roadside-violation-drivers-passengers-say-police-s/nc7kd/

    Finally, what liberal, I don’t see no liberals around here. http://dissentingdemocrat.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/norman-solomon-the-state-of-phony-populism/

  15. Plan B 15
    4 February 2014 at 9:22 am

    JK talked up violent protest at Waitangi on National Radio this morning – now why would he do that I wonder. He would be orchestrating a Law and Order Issue would he? I bet he is preying to be jostled on Wednesday just in time for the news.
    I think Labour have to continue to explain why JK says what he says rather than debate the issues. My thought is that the ignore JK in Parliament works so why not run with it across the board.

    • adam 15.1
      4 February 2014 at 9:33 am

      No, Plan B Mr Key wants to set the police on Titewhai – why? Because she reminds him of everything he has done hurt all of this country. She also does a good job of making him look like a dick! He is a naughty little boy, who hates it when people show him up.

    • Ad 15.2
      4 February 2014 at 9:47 am

      Possibly because it’s happened most years for quite a while.

      • karol 15.2.1
        4 February 2014 at 10:05 am

        What happens most years is that the events at Waitangi are generally peaceful and respectful, with or without some protests. What usually happens is when there are a few scuffles or conflicts on the Lower Marae, the MSM beats it up, focusing solely on that. They tend to ignore the main part of the events which are peaceful.

        Key has set the media on a path to look for the slightest bit of conflict, and to focus mainly on that.

        Desperation -Team Key is going to throw everything at the up coming elections.

  16. xtasy 16
    4 February 2014 at 10:34 am

    So who here, of those who live in Auckland, has read the Proposed Auckland Unitary Plan that is available on-line, and which is supposed to prepare the city for a population of 2.5 million over the coming two to three decades?

    I have had a study of the 6,961 pages, or rather the parts that are important to me, which is only a fraction of the massive, complex and suffocating amount of information. This is damned important stuff, but I hear and see that only very few Aucklanders take note of the submission process, which ends on 28 February 2014. Few know anything about this plan.

    Perhaps those living in Auckland, and certainly going to be affected in future, take some time and study this stuff. Much is aspirational stuff, same like the earlier Auckland Plan was, but there are proposals for zoning, for infrastructure and other developments and changes, mostly based on population and other projections that may be somewhat exaggerated, that will affect us all, and not all is good in my view.

    http://unitaryplan.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/pages/xc.enquire/UnitaryPlanElectronicPrint.aspx

    Submissions can be made online via this page:
    http://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/EN/planspoliciesprojects/plansstrategies/unitaryplan/Pages/makeasubmission.aspx

    Maps can be viewed via this link:
    http://acmaps.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/unitaryplan/FlexViewer/index.html

    I have come to my personal conclusion, that this whole agenda by Auckland Council is not as “democratic” and inclusive as many may believe. There is behind a lot that Auckland Council does, and what their COOs do, which is ultimately not thought out and proposed by us voters, or that comes from their own intiatives, behind so much is a so-called Committee for Auckland, which is a “not for profit” organisation that is largely made up of big and not so big business, some other lobbyists, and the whos who club of Greater Auckland. See details here:

    http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz/about/staff-and-governance/
    executive-team

    http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz/about/staff-and-governance/committee-for-auckland-limited-board

    “Look also at their “Communications Manager” and her background (in corporate media)!!!)

    Also see what Trotter wrote on that Committee on TDB:
    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/01/31/falls-the-shadow-everything-you-didnt-know-about-the-committee-for-auckland/

    So for me the picture is becoming clearer, who really runs and shapes Auckland and the future in this city. It is certainly not us residents of the city!!!

    Hence I have come to the conclusion that on this, like many other things, Penny Bright is right once again, this Proposed Auckland Unitary Plan will largely favour and benefit the many PROPERTY developers and owners of the city, and few others. Increased populations may bring some efficiencies in infrastructure use, but in the long run, they create more pressures on services also, and that will include yet more need for water (from the Waikato River, I suppose), electricity, gas, land and what else there is. Parks will eventually also make room for intensive housing, I fear.

    And where is the improvement of life for those needing affordable social housing???? I see little if any clear objectives, policies and provisions for that in the PAUP for this!

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/stop-the-unitary-plan/

    Serious stuff to give some thoughts!!!

    • xtasy 16.1
      4 February 2014 at 10:50 am

      Again, I was unable to edit.

      The ‘Committee for Auckland’ is an extremely influential organisation that operates behind the scenes, so few in the public know it even exists. They are claiming to be “independent”, but look at who sits on their executive and leadership teams:

      http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz/about/staff-and-governance/executive-team

      http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz/about/staff-and-governance/committee-for-auckland-limited-board

      There are top CEOs and managers from leading construction and property businesses at the helm of this committee.

      So does anybody still think, that Mayor Len Brown is a man that is free to make choices that are good for Auckland, that are “independent” from big business, and that represents the wishes of the people?

      Suzanne McNicol is the ‘Communications Manager’ of the ‘Committee for Auckland’, and this is what her brief profile on that website says:

      “Suzanne is an experienced marketing and communications practitioner who has spent the past twenty years working in the commercial and not-for-profit sectors.”

      “She has held strategic management roles for The Radio Network, MediaWorks and Telecom. Suzanne works closely with the Committee’s Board and staff to promote its programmes and projects through public relations and direct marketing initiatives.”

      It reveals how media connections mix with business connections, and I am sure we will find the same with central government, with politicians sitting in Parliament, and their various “contacts” to top media bosses and editors, so again, NO SURPRISES to me, the media in this country has their tentacles everywhere, and it is part of the establishment and system running NZ Inc!!!

      I expect only little in a change of government, as I cannot see all this being challenged and changed, which it should be. So there is another task for activists to get stuck into!

    • karol 16.2
      4 February 2014 at 10:54 am

      Well done on looking closely at the Auckland Plan. I have looked at it only a little, and it is a massive and daunting document.

      My feeling is that the Auckland Council does support property developers as you say. But also, it has negotiated a slightly softer approach – less of the appropriation of land via continuing urban sprawl – not the more radical property developers’ dream that the NActs would like.

      Underlying everything the council does is its un-democratic structure as set up by NAct boy Hide. And yes, Penny Bright did raise an important issue of the Committee for Auckland – Trotter has got that from her.

      The real problem is the way the super-city was set up. And the only way to change that is through a change of government, along with ongoing community pressure – and hopefully, in the long run, and truly democratic council, and an elected and truly left wing council and mayor.

    • Hami Shearlie 16.3
      4 February 2014 at 11:48 am

      I agree – The mayor wants all the lowly plebs to live in little boxes in the sky but he doesn’t practice what he preaches – He lives in a huge house (with pool) on a huge lifestyle block with no neighbours peering in at him – just as well considering his “activities”! The unitary plan is for the benefit of developers, and the Council – think of all the extra rates rolling in from all those poor devils in the tiny apartments! And imagine the social problems – if they think South Auckland is bad now, wait till all those families with 5 or 6 kids are jammed into little boxes in the sky with no yard for kids to play in!! No one has asked the people of Auckland what they want – the people who are here already and have paid rates or rent for decades are not given any say about THEIR city – it’s ours, not Len’s!!

      • karol 16.3.1
        4 February 2014 at 11:56 am

        Hami. Actually, the problems with the Auckland Plan are not the increase in medium density housing.

        I would prefer that to more urban sprawl – that is a major part of the property developers’ dream that is being partially thwarted by the Auckland Plan.

        the people who are here already and have paid rates or rent for decades are not given any say about THEIR city – it’s ours, not Len’s!!

        Actually, there has been a long consultation period with Aucklanders given a lot of opportunity to have their say. I do agree there are limits to how much Aucklander will be listened to. Those with the least powerful voices are those on low incomes, struggling to find adequate housing, and who are increasingly being pushed to the fringes of the city.

        The problem is, the city isn’t Len’s particularly – Len has put in some road blocks to those with real power in Auckland City – the unelected CCOs, the Committee of Auckland, etc, as xtasy points out.

        The problem with property developers’ power is not the medium density housing in selected places. It’s to do with the way commercial developments re-malls, etc are priorotised over community facilities, and the range of infrastructure that good housing developments require.

        • xtasy 16.3.1.1
          5 February 2014 at 12:43 am

          The Proposed Auckland Unitary Plan, Part 2:

          “7.8 Affordable housing”

          “The following objectives and policies do not have legal effect until the Unitary Plan is operative.”

          “Background
          The provision of retained affordable housing will ensure wider housing choices and a more balanced social mix in new housing developments. This in turn will help to address regional objectives relating to social and
          economic wellbeing, transport and land use. It will also extend the effectiveness of scarce public resources by increasing overall housing output through partnership with the notforprofit housing sector.

          An affordable housing assessment will need to be prepared for all applications for resource consent that are required to provide a percentage of retained affordable housing. The assessment will provide the details as to how and where the required retained affordable housing will be provided within the development.

          Where required, retained affordable housing must be provided within the development. Through a resource consent, the retained affordable housing may be provided on sites in the vicinity of the development. This may include arrangements where the retained affordable housing is delivered by a separate body, such as a community housing provider.”

          “Objective
          The proportion of dwellings that are affordable to households in the intermediate housing market is increased across Auckland.”

          “Policies
          * Require a proportion of new dwellings to be retained affordable housing in new largescale residential subdivision or residential development within the RUB.
          * Provide for retained affordable housing that is similar in external design to market rate housing within the development and that is located throughout the development.”

          Own comment:
          Now, does this not sound a bit like the present Housing NZ policy, and with that the present government’s housing policy, in at least certain areas?

    • Ad 16.4
      4 February 2014 at 12:02 pm

      Where have you been? Under a rock? Firstly it’s based on the Auckland Plan, which had more submissions on it than anything Auckland has ever had.

      Secondly there has been a massive engagement plan across every mall and market and obscure group in the region imploring us all to make submissions.

      Then there are the endless quite open debates in Auckland Council – and if you wanted to make your feelings known there, every cellphone of every elected member is on the Council website.

      And finally there are the public hearings coming up – and Judge Kirkpatrick is taking all submissions right up to February 28th.

      Conspiracy is usually the cop-out for “forgot to engage”. This far down the track, the draft is set and it’s harder to dislodge proposals, but that’s what all the previous layers of engagement were on about. Code name democracy.

      ps, if you’re not invited to a group, form your own. Charge for membership if you like, and with the proceeds hire your own pr. My own personal one is the Labour Party. Surprising what kind of access you get, to all sorts of people.

      • xtasy 16.4.1
        4 February 2014 at 1:04 pm

        Ad – for much of the important parts the Proposed Auckland Unitary Plan contains heaps of “aspirational stuff”, same as the Auckland Plan, and it is all wishy washy sweet talking, generalised “objectives”, “policy” and “plans”.

        Of course much else of the PAUP is about the rules, definitions for building, developing, and the nitty-gritty stuff, and few will ever read all that.

        I read what matters to me. I argue though, with all “democratic” talk, who is actually reading the stuff? the 22 thousand submitters of feedback mid last year make up 1.5 per cent of Auckland’s population. And the voters in the last elections were 50 percent or less, most knowing damn little about details. I submitted feedback before, and I noticed, there have been few changes made from the draft.

        And going by experience with all this “planning”, in Auckland or elsewhere in NZ, when “intensification” may make sense in certain areas, there are some areas for which it is planned, where there is no plan for the infrastructure to cater for more water, electricity, road traffic, let alone train traffic. Also I do remember the “leaky home crisis”, and that was home-made, and by experience, such things tend to happen here more than in many other places. I do not believe the new rules will ensure similar things will not happen. The quick and easy buck is on too many developer’s and building professional’s minds.

        It will end up in clogged roads, even if more use buses, worse than now. And to build the train and bus networks, more decisive action is needed that what I read. But who will vote for that? We are about to get a plan enabling much intense property development, but without any assurances the money will be there for the infrastructure. Growing the population in one place is also stupid, as it is better to spread population and to bring in regional development plans that will provide for that.

        I am all for public transport and that, and it can be done in even smaller cities than Auckland as overseas examples show, there is no need to grow the population for that, as that will also increase need for yet more infrastructure. Growing economic activity by growing population is the most primitive economic policy there is, but is is “popular” in Anglo Saxon economies like the US, Canada and Australia, where space is still available, but one day, also these places will have such environmental stress coming with high and dense populations, they will have even worse destruction of the environment and resources, and a huge mess to face in future.

        Sustainability should also mean limiting population growth. Do you want to suck the Waikato River and surroundings dry when 2.5 million Aucklanders want and need yet more water?

        I am not convinced that the future of Aucklanders will improve with such a population. Costs will increase for all, despite it all.

        • Ad 16.4.1.1
          4 February 2014 at 1:29 pm

          You might want to engage over at TransportBlog.

          Those guys are really taking Council and particularly Auckland Transport to task. For example, they are neck deep in the forensic work reconciling the transport investment forecasts with their Congestion Free Network. Patrick Reynolds and Matt Lowrie are two of the main authors, and it’s pretty easy to engage there. Careful though, before you step into the ring, there’s expertise on call to burn with every debate.

          One of the core problems is that the Auckland Plan and its targets (to which every CCO is held accountable by the way) when formed were not well reconciled to the resources to do them in the Long Term Plan (ten year funding programme). This reconciliation is only beginning now.

          The debates that you are describing are very, very live right now.

          • xtasy 16.4.1.1.1
            5 February 2014 at 12:50 am

            Ad – yes, I have been on the Auckland Transport Blog and find it informative and interesting, but of course, I do not share all of the views expressed there.

            But yes, it pays to read a wide diversity of good source information. I do not completely reject the plan, I just disagree with some of the directions, with certain objectives and policies, and what presumptions they are based on.

            So I will spend some more time this month on preparing a submission, as I certainly want to have my say.

            I encourage others to do the same, especially for aspects of the plan covering their particular residential area.

  17. veutoviper 17
    4 February 2014 at 10:48 am

    And so the inciduous undermining of our domestic laws, and privacy of NZ residents, continues – together with under the radar amendment of NZ legislation to meet US interests.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9681670/Move-to-alter-privacy-laws-to-help-US

    The Government wants to override privacy laws to supply the US Government with private details about Americans living in New Zealand.

    As part of a global tax-dodging crackdown, the US is forcing banks and other financial institutions to hand over the private financial details of US “persons” and companies based overseas.

    From July this year, Kiwi banks and insurers will be required to provide US tax authorities with American customers’ contact details, bank account numbers and transaction history.

    The move is already deeply unpopular among banks and expat Americans overseas, some of whom have accused the US of “fiscal imperialism”.

    In New Zealand, it has left banks stuck between defying the US and breaking domestic privacy laws that protect all New Zealand residents, including Americans.

    But now the Government is stepping in with plans to “override” privacy laws to help banks meet the US demands and reduce costs.

    Talks between the two countries are continuing but a bill has been introduced that would sidestep privacy protections for Americans living in New Zealand.

    The bill mentioned appears to be the Taxation (Annual Rates, Employee Allowances, and Remedial Matters) Bill which was introduced on 22 November 2013 and had its first reading on 10 December. Submission to the Finance and Expenditure Committee close tomorrow, 5 February although the Committee is not due to report back to the House until 10 June 2014. Hardly an open and transparent submission process considering the Christmas/NY holiday period.

    • alwyn 17.1
      4 February 2014 at 7:27 pm

      I commented up near the top on this.
      This isn’t really our Government handing over the information to the US.
      It is to let the major banks in New Zealand do so, if they wish, without breaching New Zealand’s Privacy laws.
      The banks will be placed in a very difficult situation if they can’t give over information about anyone who is required to prepare a US tax return.
      In practice, because of the need for a bank to do business on their customer’s behalf in the US they will be forced to cancel all accounts held by US citizens or Green Card holders. If they don’t have any US customers they don’t need to worry.
      One of the Green MPs (Sage or Genter I think) is a US citizen. I wonder how she will continue to get paid?
      http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/09/27/american-expats/1594695/

  18. bad12 18
    4 February 2014 at 10:55 am

    ‘King Slippery’ has spoken thus it must be so, the Prime Minister quoted on RadioNZ National news says that He ‘might’ offer NZFirst leader Winston Peters a ‘position’ in a National Government ‘should’ National ‘need’ NZFirst after this years election,

    Absolutely dripping with condescension this statement from Slippery the Prime Minister reeks of the ‘silver spoon’, an offer from ‘on high’ to an undeserving peasant in the form of Winston Peters of a similar bauble given to the Kupapa Sharples and Co for complete compliance in the position of Lapdog to the National Government…

  19. karol 19
    4 February 2014 at 11:26 am

    So, it looks like Cuniffe and Parker will be “discussing the long term future” of some MPs with selected MPs. ie…. looking for some announcements before too long of some Labour MPs who will not be contesting the upcoming election.

    • QoT 19.1
      4 February 2014 at 9:46 pm

      Oh gods, I will sacrifice many cattle unto you if [redacted] [redacted] and [redacted] are on that list …

  20. Anne 20
    4 February 2014 at 12:08 pm

    John Key has committed himself to completing a full term as PM if National is re-elected

    And when did a little detail involving a ‘commitment’ prevent JonKey from changing his stance or telling an out-right lie.

    • karol 20.1
      4 February 2014 at 12:12 pm

      Get out clause:

      “I’d have to be sure I had the confidence of my ministers and all that sort of stuff, but if you’re asking me ‘am I committed for three years?’ Yes.”

      • Lanthanide 20.1.1
        4 February 2014 at 12:30 pm

        Well obviously it can be used as a get-out clause, but it also happens to be true.

        You can’t remain PM if your party doesn’t want you to. National has a history of chucking out their leaders and replacing them as PM.

        • alwyn 20.1.1.1
          4 February 2014 at 8:23 pm

          Labour have an even more lurid record of course.
          The dumped Lange for Palmer. After a year they dumped Palmer for Moore.
          The only National PM who went involuntarily was Bolger, dumped for Shipley.
          Both parties of course are pretty tough on leaders who don’t win the next election.

      • Northshoreguynz 20.1.2
        4 February 2014 at 1:14 pm

        I wonder at what point will Key start to look untenable? A couple of Roy Morgan’s below 40%?
        IMHO is that even if that does happen, they won’t dump him/force the resignation this close to the election. That really would be electoral suicide. But watch how quick he buggers off back to Hawaii after.

        • McFlock 20.1.2.1
          4 February 2014 at 5:58 pm

          if they think they have some policy king hits lined up, and if they think they are master assassins who can do the deed swiftly and with surprise, I’m sure one or two of his dearest colleagues will take that risk soon for a november election.

    • McFlock 20.2
      4 February 2014 at 1:29 pm

      still gonna throw his toys out of the cot and stomp off to hawaii if he loses, then?

  21. Ad 21
    4 February 2014 at 12:21 pm

    Commerce Commission has given permission for Shanghai Pengxin to buy Synlait.
    Still plenty of New Zealand involvement, but that’s a whole bunch more south Canterbury farms now in Chinese control.

    If only New Zealand farmers and local investors had taken up the original share offer, Synlait would not have had to float in the first place.

    I don’t mind if they take minority positions to build the great capital plant, but not controlling stakes.

    • Ad 21.1
      4 February 2014 at 12:31 pm

      Correction: Overseas Investment Commission.
      Apologies.

    • McFlock 21.2
      4 February 2014 at 2:16 pm

      how much do harvard university etc own, as well…

      • Ad 21.2.1
        4 February 2014 at 2:19 pm

        And here’s the hard money where your mouth is question, which I can’t answer that well:
        would you be prepared to skip out of the real estate vortex, sell your house, and use the capital to buy a New Zealand business? That’s what a shift in capital reallocation looks and feels like. Actual personal risk.

        • Colonial Viper 21.2.1.1
          4 February 2014 at 2:29 pm

          Or the soft version of it, which is to take a 2nd mortgage out on your home in order to start a new business or invest to expand in an existing one.

          • Ad 21.2.1.1.1
            4 February 2014 at 3:30 pm

            Yup. You are gutsier than most CV.

            • Colonial Viper 21.2.1.1.1.1
              4 February 2014 at 6:49 pm

              It’s a fine line between embodying entrepreneurial spirit and being a crazy bastard sitting all the way out on a limb, but that is what it takes some days 😉

    • Tracey 21.3
      4 February 2014 at 3:40 pm

      What was the remaining shareholder make-up? I understand all but 4% voted in favour, presumably cos they were promised their dividends would increase. I just wondered if it was other companies, or larger investors?

  22. The Pink Postman 22
    4 February 2014 at 3:35 pm

    What a great job Metiria Turei did on demolishing those two harridans Tolley and Collins on Campbell Live last night.
    They must be wriggling with embarrassment, Oh Boy ! didn’t she show them up for what they are a nasty pair of arrogant Tories,
    In just a few moments of fun and laughter she made mincemeat of them. I enjoyed every moment and I’m certain John Campbell did as well. I certainly hope she is on Campbell live many times.

    • karol 22.1
      4 February 2014 at 3:37 pm

      Well, apparently Collins turned down the offer to appear on Campbell Live last night because she wanted to talk about the issues and not clothes. Gotta laugh.

      • Tracey 22.1.1
        4 February 2014 at 3:44 pm

        I would except these days I am more inclined to cry

      • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 22.1.2
        4 February 2014 at 3:47 pm

        IDGI, did Collins show and get demolished or did she not show because she didn’t want to talk about clothes?

      • Tracey 22.1.3
        4 February 2014 at 3:53 pm

        I watched the clip and that comment wasn’t attributed to Collins by Campbell, did you read it elsewhere.

        This is why i love the greens and they have my vote. I paraphrase their co-leader:

        I don’t judge this government’s minister’s by what they look like but by what they do. I don’t judge them by what they wear. National party used to be compassionate a few decades ago but now they are individualistic.

    • Rosie 22.2
      4 February 2014 at 4:42 pm

      Yes Pinkie, Metiria Turei was awesome. She was completely on the level and conveyed her message with sincerity and warmth, most un politician like. Glad to see her get some MSM attention too, despite the reason behind it.I wonder sometimes if the MSM forget she is co leader of the Greens. It’s usually all about Rus.

  23. The Pink Postman 23
    4 February 2014 at 3:35 pm

    What a great job Metiria Turei did on demolishing those two harridans Tolley and Collins on Campbell Live last night.
    They must be wriggling with embarrassment, Oh Boy ! didn’t she show them up for what they are a nasty pair of arrogant Tories,
    In just a few moments of fun and laughter she made mincemeat of them. I enjoyed every moment and I’m certain John Campbell did as well. I certainly hope she is on Campbell live many times.

    • fender 23.1
      4 February 2014 at 4:45 pm

      +1

      Hope chris73 enjoyed that too, though I’m sure he’s upset Collins was too embarrassed to front up and bat for her nasty team.

      Was great to see exactly what the castle looks like, and it’s nothing like a National Party mansion that Tolley made it out to be.

  24. McFlock 24
    4 February 2014 at 3:43 pm

    Cattle still allowed in our rivers?
    self-regulation is no-regulation

  25. Draco T Bastard 25
    4 February 2014 at 3:57 pm

    Visa scam victims face deportation

    “They promised to interview them in January and they haven’t done so, and they have said that they’re simply too busy because they have so many investigations underway.”

    That would tend to indicate two things:
    1.) That the government really needs to hire a lot more people and
    2.) That these people are probably the type of people we actually want to keep here.

  26. Tracey 26
    4 February 2014 at 4:53 pm

    Labour have made a release today calling on John key to say whether or not GCSB files were deleted… Does Labour have the same information Dotcom has? I hope they have something or this will be turned on them quickly, won’t it?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1402/S00023/key-must-say-whether-gcsb-deleted-files.htm

    • McFlock 26.1
      4 February 2014 at 5:07 pm

      Don’t think so – Robertson’s not saying he has proof or anything (obviously learned from the shearer gcsb thing). Just saying that if the records were deleted as part of an “aging off” process, then the PM lied to parliament. And seeking confirmation/clarification.

      Could go either way on this one, but if the KDC claim is not substantiated then labour say “thanks for the clarification, we made no implication or accusation”, and if it goes the other way it makes key a liar (again).

  27. Tracey 27
    4 February 2014 at 5:04 pm

    another great article by gordon campbell. Especially the last aprt in relation to searching school students phones and bags…

    “Footnote: I’m not kidding about that last bit. If you want a prime example of how badly well meaning principles could be bent, look no further than yesterday’s media furore over whether the search and seizure powers of school authorities go far enough. Don’t know about you, but the rationale for breaking the existing rules offered by Secondary Schools Principals Association president Tom Parsons struck me as completely bizarre and unacceptable:

    [Parsons said] “When you seize a phone and trawl through it you may see stuff that is arguably private, but that’s nonsense to then not do it, because the reason you’re looking for the stuff is out of good intentions.” He said principals and teachers did not use search and seizure powers unless there was a reason to suspect wrongdoing. “Surely the privacy factor is a small price to pay for the greater safety of all students.” Parsons said there was no point getting “tied up in the detail” and principals needed to exercise their right to keep students safe regardless of what the guidelines said.

    Yep, that’s how we teach the young about the rule of law, and the rights of the minority, and the proper respect for personal space and private property – by violating the existing guidelines on them at will because the existing rules don’t seem stringent enough and just get in the way of you doing what you want to do. And that’s supposed to be A-OK because you’ve got good intentions? And of course, no-one in power has ever violated personal liberties without good reason, have they? And the needs of the majority (which you determine) must always prevail, right? All up, a pretty good example of why you don’t give those in authority the unfettered power to regulate the privacy of others.”

  28. chris73 28
    4 February 2014 at 5:17 pm

    http://www.travelmemo.co.nz/memos/20140204.pdf

    – theres an article on a certain cycle trail people might find interesting

    • Ad 28.1
      4 February 2014 at 6:05 pm

      The Clutha Gold and others are certainly helping spread that tourism wealth beyond Queenstown-Lakes.

      There’s another, beyond Central Otago, that starts at the Mt Cook Hermitage, helicopters you over the glacier lake, then starts you down the great artificial lakes, and then all the way down the river to Oamaru. It’s five days, but that’s easily an inch off my gut. Five days, so it’s a bigger stretch than the old Otago Rail Rail which is three. Ophir is my particular highlight of that one.

  29. Penny Bright 29
    4 February 2014 at 5:35 pm

    FYI

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz/penny-bright-filed-a-complaint-of-money-laundering-with-police-against-auckland-mayor-len-brown-4-feb-2014/

    Penny Bright filed a complaint of money laundering with Police against Auckland Mayor Len Brown 4 Feb. 2014

    February 4, 2014 | Author Penny

    MEDIA ALERT FORWARDED BY GRAHAM McCREADY:

    (Scanned documents inserted by Penny Bright.)

    Penny Bright of Auckland filed a complaint of money laundering against Mayor Len Brown this morning 4 Feb 2014.

    Confirmation from the police is attached.

    LEN BROWN Pg 1 Police Complaint stamped (1).pdf 4 February

    LEN BROWN Complaint to Police – alleged money-laundering 4 February 2014

    The complaint was entered into the Police computer system as Reference No. 140204/7459 “Engages in Money Laundering Transaction”

    LEN BROWN Police Complaint acknowledgement.pdf 4 February 2014
    The Police Officer who took the complaint is Tony Geldenhuys Customer Services Manager, Auckland Central Police Station 09 302 6741

    LEN BROWN Police Complaint Tony Geldenhuys Business card

    The complaint alleges that Brown arranged to have the gifts of rooms and room upgrades put in his wife’s name to avoid declaring them on up to 74 occasions over three years in his register of interests. Prima facie this is money laundering.

    Graham Mc Cready
    Agent for NZPPS Ltd
    ………………
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    ……………….

    Penny Bright

    • bad12 29.1
      4 February 2014 at 7:27 pm

      Excuse me for having an elongated burst of mad laughter after having read your latest Penny Bright…

  30. North 30
    4 February 2014 at 5:48 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/9684096/Key-blames-media-for-jostling-comments

    If some media people gave Key some bum info he should name them. Until then and until those named acknowledge they gave him bum info, he lied.

    Crass little fuck’s been winding himself up since the weekend for some shit to go down today.

    Pretty humiliating when you get twittered on by the Governor-General himself, the very man you’re purporting to weep for. Imagine if it was Cunliffe. Key and the rest of them’d be howling like dogs.

    • McFlock 30.1
      4 February 2014 at 6:05 pm

      Well, he’s played the bar-room declaimer for several years. Now, as his metaphorical night on the piss draws to a close, he might as well turn into the angry drunk in the corner who’s out to get a bit of aggro. It’s okay, his mates will drag him away so he can talk about how lucky the other guy was (even though the other guy was simply out for a good night before Liar McTough clocked off).

  31. karol 31
    4 February 2014 at 6:37 pm

    “Every child needs an Apple device” – heard on TV3 News.

    • Colonial Viper 31.1
      4 February 2014 at 6:42 pm

      TV3 Corporate Ad Channel

      Does every child need breakfast too, you frickin out of touch well off elitest ****’s

      • karol 31.1.1
        4 February 2014 at 6:47 pm

        Here’s the link and direct quote:

        “The Government does support technology, but they really must come into the 21st century now and see that every child really does need an Apple device,” says former NZEI president Ian Leckie.

        Would have expected better of an ex-NZEI prez.

        • Colonial Viper 31.1.1.1
          4 February 2014 at 6:52 pm

          Apple shareholders rejoice! Free advertising time with unpaid shills who apparently don’t know a **** about education.

          Hate to say it, but I find that it is often the ‘older generation’ who gets completely swept up by the hype around new technology. The kids are like ‘meh, just another derivative iDevice thing’

          Thanks for the link karol.

    • gem 31.2
      5 February 2014 at 12:43 am

      Meanwhile, on Morning Report today, the rheumatic fever throat swab clinics in Northland have not seen a reduction in the number of cases of the disease. It is possible that after the formal evaluation, this programme will be expanded from those with a sore throat, to swabbing every school-kid, which Prof Diana Lennon says will be a huge logistical exercise.
      From lead researcher Prof Lennon:
      ”We would like to think that this would be the beginning of delivery of services to a childhood group that has not had very basic services to treat and prevent … infections. This is not the level of disease you see in Melbourne, or Sydney, or San Francisco.”
      We can’t get a handle on a disease rarely seen in the USA or Australia, but we will send millions offshore ($100k for this school alone) worsening our terms of trade for little or no benefit to children’s education, when that money could be spent on housing and good food.
      Oh well, Apple’s expected to release its Iwatch soon, and it’s likely to have health sensors apparently, so inevitably some plonker will insist we issue each kid one of those too, for the good of their health.

  32. North 32
    4 February 2014 at 6:41 pm

    TV3 News – Key saying the Governor-General was “effectively” jostled. What the hell does “effectively……” mean ? Either he was jostled or he wasn’t. The Governor General himself says he wasn’t.

    First question is this: is the Governer-General lying or is John Key lying ? One of them must be. Make sense ? One of them MUST be.

    Second question: John Key, are you saying the Governor General lied ?

    • Colonial Viper 32.1
      4 February 2014 at 6:46 pm

      The GG is a former commander of the NZSAS.

      No one is jostling that man without feeling some serious push back.

      Key is a lying scumbag (long known around these parts, but the media poodles keep lapping it up at his feet).

    • ScottGN 32.2
      4 February 2014 at 7:43 pm

      Key’s office has spent the afternoon trying to haul the story back in after his comments earlier today. Inconveniently for them the GG tweeted a response to the brouhaha. They blame the media, of course, for giving him a bum steer on the situation around the GG. But it’s really just further proof that the 9th floor of the Beehive sees discord at Waitangi as their electoral friend this year.

  33. weka 33
    4 February 2014 at 7:39 pm

    Trending video on tv3 news – Turei’s interview with Campbell and a quick tour of her house. She is awesome in how she responds to the criticisms, I can’t wait to see what she will be like as part of the next govt.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Inside-Metiria-Tureis-castle/tabid/817/articleID/330842/Default.aspx

  34. Colonial Viper 34
    4 February 2014 at 8:53 pm

    “Don’t worry – be happy”

    Ridiculous United States MSM divert and distract, pretend and extend. And we think that we have it bad over here, they are a completely propagandised nation.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-03/independent-mainstream-media-does-it-again

  35. stever 35
    4 February 2014 at 11:24 pm

    “The 1% are disproportionately made up not of people who are most able, but of those who are most greedy and least concerned about the rights, feelings and welfare of other people.”

    Good article by geographer…it’s about the UK, but it all applies here too.

    http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/feb/04/education-system-polarises-people-economic-inequality

    • miravox 35.1
      5 February 2014 at 12:27 am

      Very good article. It will be important to understand how the NActs are spinning measures of inequality going into the election campaign. In the UK:

      Income inequality has now reached a new maximum and, for the first time in a century, even those just below the richest 1% are beginning to suffer, to see their disposable income drop. When you exclude the top 1%, income inequality within the rest of the population, within the 99%, is now lower than at any time since Margaret Thatcher was prime minister. Or, as put in economist-speak by the Institute for Fiscal Studies last year: “Over the past two decades … inequality among the bottom 99% has fallen: the Gini coefficient for the bottom 99% was 5% lower in 2011–12, at 0.30, than in 1991.

      The 1% really are running away with it.

      An interesting perspective on how the privatisation of education makes inequality worse.

The server will be getting hardware changes this evening starting at 10pm NZDT.
The site will be off line for some hours.