Open mike 08/03/2012

95 comments on “Open mike 08/03/2012 ”

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1. phillip ure.. 1

   8 March 2012 at 7:05 am

   http://whoar.co.nz/2012/the-marijuana-diet-how-pot-enhances-my-life/

   “…Marijuana is a lovely addition to a life filled with sensual pleasures like good wine, chocolate and espresso.

   Cannabis has been a part of my life since 1968, when I turned 20.

   Although we have had long periods of not seeing one another, Ms. Mary Jane Cannabis Pot has been a good friend in my social and cultural scene for more than 40 years.

   MJ and I grew up in a generation that deemed this herb a vital staple of our daily diet – and a means of enlivening connections with our fellow man or woman.

   Despite warnings that marijuana is a gateway drug, I never found cannabis to be a gateway to anything other than enhancing social situations such as concerts or parties, or increasing pleasure in sexuality.

   And giving you a major case of the munchies…”

   phil-at-whoar.
   • Uturn 1.1

     8 March 2012 at 7:15 am

     All’s well that ends well. At least they didn’t get arrested. A good outcome. You have to consider though, that unless they were purposely making a political statement, they were pretty silly crossing the border with their stash on board. Maybe they had short term memory loss and “forgot”.
   • vto 1.2

     8 March 2012 at 9:02 am

     I had it described thus … General thought processes follow a continuous line where one thought leads to another and a train of thought develops. You can understand how you got to a particular thought and also where that thought might generally go by looking at the train.

     When stoned though, the thought process is broken at a thousand places along that train – picture if you will a train consisting of a thousand decoupled wagons sitting individually on the rails.

     The brain then randomly finds itself stuck on a particular thought wagon but because the link forwards and backwards is broken it has no idea how it got there or where it will lead, and it is this which results in paranoia as the person cannot work out how that thought came about or where it will lead. Oh noes! Although, similarly, that particular thought wagon gets analysed in considerable detail (and in isolation).

     So the stoners end up randomly thinking on individual thought wagons but cannot link anything together, which can make it impossible for others to understand them.

     The train of a thousand indivudal de-coupled thought wagons. Bit like your writing Phil. But each to their own, good on ya. What do you think of the above?
     • phillip ure.. 1.2.1

       8 March 2012 at 11:13 am

       “..What do you think of the above?..”

       it reads like a stoned/er rant…

       ..the brain as a de-coupled train..eh..?

       ..shine on you crazy diamond.!..eh..?

       ..and..btw…what’s yr poison..?..hic..!

       ..eh..?

       phil-at-whoar.
       • phillip ure.. 1.2.1.1

         8 March 2012 at 12:15 pm

         i mean..seriously..!..

         a teetotaller could maybe criticise pot-users on ‘nothing-is-best’-grounds…

         ..(and be told to pipe down on grounds of individual-choice/freedoms..)

         ..but for any alcohol user…to criticise pot-users..on any grounds..

         ..is just benchmark-setting/eye-watering hypocrisy…

         ..how can it not be..?

         ..how many people did pot kill last year..?…(i forget..must be the pot..eh..?..)

         ..what’s that you say..?..none..?

         ..and how many again did alcohol kill/disable..?

         ..you must be kidding me..!..that many..?

         ..(eh..?..hic..!..)

         phil-at-whoar.
         • vto 1.2.1.1.1

           8 March 2012 at 12:25 pm

           I don’t believe there was any criticism of pot or alcohol users in my post above, merely a description of what happens to the brain processes when in use. Alcohol effects are probably more like… jump on the train, load up the firebox, get the steam to maximum, let loose the brakes and full steam ahead no matter the obstacles ahead or wagons in tow. Bloody dangerous if you ask me. Better a whole heap of stationary decoupled wagons.
           • phillip ure.. 1.2.1.1.1.1

             8 March 2012 at 12:58 pm

             “..Better a whole heap of stationary decoupled wagons…”

             aah..!..now you are talking zen…eh..?

             ..striving to be both ‘stationary’..and ‘de-coupled’…

             ..would that we all could..eh..?

             phil-at-whoar.
             • Mark …

               8 March 2012 at 8:47 pm

               In saying that, you obviously smoked more/younger than me, because I can write proper like.
               (-: 
         • Mark 1.2.1.1.2

           8 March 2012 at 8:42 pm

           I don’t disagree totally with this Phil.. it’s not just pot, but a whole lot of mind altering/expanding substances can be used and enjoyed peacefully at the right time, in the right place..
           Personal experience has shown me however that anything with a potential for brain function alteration needs to be tightly controlled/banned for those brains that haven’t developed yet.. unfortunately it is not an arbitrary age or easily measurable.
           I love a drink, a cigarette, a good coffee or tea, and much more, and I agree that our punitive and failed “war on drugs” is a total cockup .
           I lean towards a solution involving the supply of any “drug” (based on a harm quotient) to anyone either too young to safely assimilate (or make that decision) very harshly punishable. Ditto for anyone using/affected by in a situation where judgement/co-ordination/reaction deficiencies have harmful consequences to others (work, family, driving etc)
           Tax the product, remove the gangs, educate potential users, leave happy stoners to enjoy.
2. Bored 2

   8 March 2012 at 8:18 am

   Who watched Len Brown on Campbell last night?

   How many of you were left in any doubt as to where Len sat vis a vis the POA dispute?

   How many of you voted for Len?

   How many will vote for Len again?
   • Tiger Mountain 2.1

     8 March 2012 at 8:45 am

     As I said on FB this morning Len Brown is now officially toast. Non engagement usually benefits the boss, in this case the POA union busters. Len’s appalling lack of class understanding and backbone is well and truly on public display.
   • AAMC 2.2

     8 March 2012 at 9:35 am

     It just further confirmed my declining interest and total lack of faith in our political system, as Obama has also so brilliantly brutally illustrated. They can proclaim their progressive credentials as much as they like, but once inside this dysfunctional system, they all become cogs.

     It leaves me with little hope to be honest, and increasingly depressive…
     • Morrissey 2.2.1

       8 March 2012 at 9:43 am

       Len Brown is the latest in a long line of people invested with considerable responsibility who just refuse to do their jobs: Barack Obama, Ban Ki Moon, “Sir” Geoffrey Palmer, Craig Joubert, Bryce Johns…
     • Uturn 2.2.2

       8 March 2012 at 9:45 am

       Shoot down to Pete’s post a few below, and listen. It examines the binary small governmnet/big government options; trusting others to spend/act on people’s behalf; and highights the truth that as you say, it is indeed our systems that need to change. More or less of a broken system is not the solution. Changing the person who represents a broken system is not the solution. No need to be depressed about it at all. It opens the way for real people to start making decisions based on basic values that are good them and everyone, not just a few, excluding no one, impacting their lives immediately and constructively.
     • s y d 2.2.3

       8 March 2012 at 10:36 am

       AAMC get on the train!!! choo choo, vto or phil is selling tickets, then you need not worry anymore
       • AAMC 2.2.3.1

         8 March 2012 at 12:08 pm

         Which train’s that syd?
   • Fortran 2.3

     8 March 2012 at 1:18 pm

     Brown came over as a right “dick’.
     Hope he retires at next election and lets Mike Lee stand.
     Then we will see some real backbone, not like the spineless Brown.
     Don’t know why I voted for him.
   • the pink postman 2.4

     8 March 2012 at 2:57 pm

     Not only Len Brown out of whack but also Vicky Buck .What the hell is going on?
3. Bored 3

   8 March 2012 at 8:27 am

   On another note an example of how politicians might be captured by interest groups in contradicition of their own constituencies best interests…..in this case listening to “expert” advice from their own employees.

   Hawkes Bay council officials were taken by Apache (an appropriately named fracking enterprise) to Canada to prove that all we have heard about the contamination of ground water etc by fracking is “misinformation”. I am assuming that 5 Star hotels and meals were inclusive, plus the usual sanitised tours (propaganda as pioneered byCommunist states)….how could I be so cynical?

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/marlborough-express/news/kaikoura/6532286/Fracking-information-not-always-accurate
   • Hilary 3.1

     8 March 2012 at 8:55 am

     Poor journalism – that article doesn’t actually note that their trip was paid by Apache, so is little more than PR spin.
   • thatguynz 3.2

     8 March 2012 at 9:53 am

     Sigh…  Have our local and central government officials learnt nothing from the Timberlands debacle??…
      
     Lobbying/PR is a scourge.
4. Pete 4

   8 March 2012 at 8:51 am

   This American Life: What Kind of Country?

   All across the country right now, local and state governments are finding they can’t pay their bills. Schools are losing teachers, street lights are going dark, garbage is piling up in public parks, and cops are suddenly an optional expense. This week we travel to Colorado Springs, to Trenton and to the office of Grover Norquist to ask: Is the kind of country we want? One where government gets smaller? Or should we all pay higher taxes, and keep government bigger?
   • Uturn 4.1

     8 March 2012 at 9:30 am

     Definitely worth a listen. If others don’t have the time, jump to Act Three, which sums the story up nicely and promotes further thought on small government/privatisation/government spending.
     • AAMC 4.1.1

       8 March 2012 at 2:03 pm

       Listened, it proved that ideology gets on the way of common sense…

       can’t wait for the dystopia of darken streets, potholes and barren parks so we can all save a few bucks trying to eliminate Govt, while we wait for some benevolent overlord to throw a few crumbs to keep things in his neighborhood going.
5. Hilary 5

   8 March 2012 at 9:05 am

   Happy International Women’s Day. http://www.internationalwomensday.com/
   Still a long way to go in NZ and further in many other countries before any sort of equality is reached.
   However, I suspect the Standard readership is overwhelmingly male, and don’t see IWD as relevant to them.

   [lprent: Nope.

   From the little data that we do have from the advertising side, it appears that the readership is lower for females than males (in the order of ~40% to ~60%) but not massively out of whack. There could be some bias in those numbers because of the way that they collect the data.

   However if you’d said that the commentators were still largely male then you’d have been correct from my observation (no easy way to be certain). But it is a much smaller population that the readers. It was less than a tenth of the humans that read the site when I last dug through the IP numbers for the readers and commentators.

   The number of identifiable female commentators seem to fluctuate considerably and they do seem to leave fewer comments. But I think that both are slowly climbing. ]
   • Zorr 5.1

     8 March 2012 at 9:18 am

     uhuh… and this kind of comment is meant to endear me to the idea of supporting it?

     I love my wife, I respect her and I support her. However I have no great love for the outspoken extremes of the continuing feminist movement because of comments such as yours that denigrate me as a male. What did I ever do to you other than being born with the wrong genitalia? (and yes, the irony is intended)
     • just saying 5.1.1

       8 March 2012 at 11:27 am

       …comments such as yours that denigrate me as a male…

       Whoa. Did I miss something? Has a comment been removed?

       Please explain.
       • Zorr 5.1.1.1

         8 March 2012 at 12:03 pm

         “However, I suspect the Standard readership is overwhelmingly male, and don’t see IWD as relevant to them.”

         This implies that in a predominantly male community this Hilary person automatically presumes there is no empathy for female issues.
         • McFlock 5.1.1.1.1

           8 March 2012 at 1:19 pm

           Depends on the reliability of a random comma as used on the interwebz
                 
           In general, I’d probably agree with the suspicion that even in these enlightened days an overwhelmingly male group would not prioritise IWD highly, if at all. The major difference these days is that said groups might say or do the appropriate things when reminded of e.g. who always ends up cleaning the cups after the meetings. “Empathy” is thin on the ground.
   • Kotahi Tane Huna 5.2

     8 March 2012 at 9:22 am

     The NZ events look interesting, but I don’t think much of your promotional strategy, it reminds me too much of Paul Henry.
     • Zorr 5.2.1

       8 March 2012 at 9:33 am

       I think George Orwell said it best when he said…

       “2 legs are better than 4”
     • Hilary 5.2.2

       8 March 2012 at 9:50 am

       Let me rephrase that. There are of course a lot of very good men out there (probably a majority on the left). They would have been doing the childcare while their wives were out gathering signatures for the women’s suffrage petition in the 1890s etc.

       However, while there remains significant structural and actual discrimination by society based on some ‘average white male norm’, against groups on the basis of gender,ethnicity, sexuality or disability, there is work to do. The gender battle has been going on for many millennia and in many countries doesn’t seem to be making any progress. Addressing this is a responsibility for all of us.

       International Womens Day hasn’t been mentioned in the mainstream media or the blogs that I have seen today. I suspect that this is because women are too busy doing the 24/7 grind keeping the world going, rather than having spare time or resources to contribute.

       So I am not promoting IWD or wanting your support if you are wavering. Just commenting on an observation.
       • Zorr 5.2.2.1

         8 March 2012 at 10:11 am

         And the observation is an incredibly sexist one…

         If you are looking to replace an inequal society/system with an equal one you can’t afford to be so discriminatory…
       • Vicky32 5.2.2.2

         8 March 2012 at 5:39 pm

         International Womens Day hasn’t been mentioned in the mainstream media or the blogs that I have seen today

         It has on BBC Radio! (Also amongst my friends in Italy, it’s a really big thing there.. and so the World Service concentrated on Italy in its items..)
         • rosy 5.2.2.2.1

           8 March 2012 at 6:14 pm

           Also amongst my friends in Italy, it’s a really big thing there
           It’s huge in Eastern Europe too. Seems to be something that has come out of the communist era and has been merged with the later IWD. Apparently it’s more of an appreciation day rather than a political event – official or non-official public holidays, little presents etc.
   • Te Reo Putake 5.3

     8 March 2012 at 9:42 am

     Annie Lennox has done some excellent promotional work for International Women’s Day here.
     
      
     She makes this pertinent comment:
      
     “I don’t think feminism is about the exclusion of men but their inclusion … we must face and address those issues, especially to include younger men and boys”
     • vto 5.3.1

       8 March 2012 at 9:53 am

       Yes.

       One must always bring other stakeholders on board to be successful. The alternative, their exclusion, if successful, will never last. This applies to anything.
     • js 5.3.2

       8 March 2012 at 12:24 pm

       Yes inclusion – an inclusive society would be nice. Also safe and secure for everyone. Up to everyone to work on this together, not leave it as a problem for the excluded.
   • Te Reo Putake 5.4

     8 March 2012 at 1:25 pm

     LP: Thanks for the info. From my perspective, the Standard is often a total sausage fest, whith a strongly macho element to the debates. This isn’t unusual on blogs; the loudest voices eventually stifle the quieter contributions in a way that echoes the dominance of men in wider society.
      
     I’m not excusing myself, either. I had to have a good think about how I behave here myself when I was accused of misogyny by a woman poster a year or so ago. I don’t believe it to be true, but it did give me the opportunity to think about how women contributing here might see things.
      
     So kudos to Hillary. Even if the words weren’t perfect, the sentiment is pretty close to correct. I’d be interested to know how others think the Standard could become a more inclusive site and lift those numbers to a more reflective 50/50.
     • lprent 5.4.1

       8 March 2012 at 4:03 pm

       I’d be interested to know how others think the Standard could become a more inclusive site and lift those numbers to a more reflective 50/50.

       As far as I am concerned that is easy to envisage, a lot harder to achieve. More woman authors who post more than they currently do.

       Hard enough to get authors. But it feels like what I’d envisage is the pain threshold of waxing arsehairs to get female authors doing regular posts. It is enough of a real pain recruiting authors and having them do more than a few posts, but I draw the line at the pain of waxing. Hell, I avoid facial shaving if I have a chance…
       • RedBaron 5.4.1.1

         8 March 2012 at 7:23 pm

         Um – what clues do you use to suspect a poster of being female?
         • lprent 5.4.1.1.1

           9 March 2012 at 5:04 am

           In my case I can see their email, their comment history, and I get far more email from female commentators when they need assistance. I look at the topics of interest, what they have said, and see a pattern – just as i do for everyone. There is also a difference in writing style – can’t tell you what it is, but it is distinctive when you read as many comments as I do (Irish is the master at the art of detecting personality in writing).

           It isn’t precise. But it is good enough to look at trends.
   • Te Reo Putake 5.5

     8 March 2012 at 1:27 pm

     Double posting, sorry.
   • Hilary 5.6

     9 March 2012 at 8:53 am

     Thanks for that data. It actually takes a bit of courage/confidence to participate in this site which (like many others) frequently has testosterone-fuelled and personally aggressive comments. Perhaps that is why women choose to opt out.
6. marty mars 6

   8 March 2012 at 10:28 am

   Good work Hone in putting this open letter out there so overseas investors are under no misunderstandings about what will happen in the future

   “As the leader of the MANA Movement and Member of the New Zealand House of Representatives, I wish to advise that MANA is opposed to the privatisation of state assets and will strongly argue for any shares sold to overseas investors to be returned to New Zealand hands.

   You have been warned…”

   http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1203/S00104/open-letter-to-overseas-investors.htm

   http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2012/03/fair-warning.html
   • vto 6.1

     8 March 2012 at 10:47 am

     Agreed marty mars, fight fire with fire. Go Hone!

     Btw, I recall last week some coughing and spluttering from yourself when I referred to the military machinations of Ngai Tahu. In the last week I have had cause to visit various tourist sites around the South Island, several of which had informations available regarding Maori history at the particular sites. I was quite appalled at the lack of reference to those who existed prior to Ngai Tahu’s invasions and the dominance of recent history (last 200 years i.e. Ngai Tahu) over longer history. I guess that some things never change – the victor writes the history books.
     • marty mars 6.1.1

       8 March 2012 at 11:13 am

       oh vto rest easy the histories are there for those who are able to see them. Look up mana whenua and whānui, they might give you some clue – but seriously stick to the stuff you nearly know rather than things you know nothing about – makes you less stressed and less antagonistic.

       anyway I’m off to drive tourists on farewell spit now so I’ll reply to your inevitable prodding a bit later…
       • vto 6.1.1.1

         8 March 2012 at 11:50 am

         ” the histories are there for those who are able to see them. Look up mana whenua and whānui, they might give you some clue – but seriously stick to the stuff you nearly know rather than things you know nothing about – makes you less stressed and less antagonistic.”

         Actually marty, my point was that “the histories weren’t there”. That is what I specifically looked for. That is what my comment above concerned – the particular point of histories made available at tourist sites. Do you expect people to google stuff at each place they visit? Is that what people do out on Farewell Spit?

         And please stop attacking me personally and accusing me of not knowing stuff and being antagonistic. You wouldn’t have a clue about my knowledge base. I have seen tiny little knowledge from you, just coughing, spluttering, harrumphing, etc. And where on earth is the antagonism in my post above? Nowhere. Which indicates an uncomfortable defensive reaction on your part.

         Try answering the issue and not playing the person. You make a habit of it and all it does is detract further from the points you haven’t made. In fact, whenever Maori issues get questioned those like yourself get highly defensive and abusive, just like our dear farmers whenever they get questioned about the shit in the rivers – all they do is harrumph and abuse and storm off.

         Fact: Histories at tourist sites around the South Island are excessively slanted in favour of Ngai Tahu, the victors.

         Answer: Happy to hear yours but more personal plays without substance on the issue at hand will confirm a growing suspicion re yourself.
         • marty mars 6.1.1.1.1

           8 March 2012 at 8:32 pm

           you keep raising the same point in a snide way, such as – “when I referred to the military machinations of Ngai Tahu” and “I was quite appalled at the lack of reference to those who existed prior to Ngai Tahu’s invasions and the(ir) dominance of recent history.” Those statements are ignorant – sorry if that offends you. Just who are you talking about vto? Ngāti Mamoe? Waitaha? Guess what, most Ngāi Tahu whānui, like me, whakapapa to all three iwi – that’s what it means to be part of the iwi – it’s on the front page of their website, not hard to find. Perhaps you are talking about other peoples who inhabited the island – please tell me who you are talking about. Hopefully you don’t bring up some brailsford bullshit.

           The reason behind the statements – give me that also and I will treat it with respect.
           • vto 6.1.1.1.1.1

             12 March 2012 at 9:30 am

             marty mars, this issue began when you raised yourself to some higher moral ground to look down on the european colonists and their military ways, forgetting your own past and its own military ways. The basis of the issue was hypocrisy and it was that which I was pointing out.

             As for “Brailsford bullshit”, well, that is entirely the consistent reaction to anything which challenges current orthodoxy. The victors write the history books – always have.
             • marty mars …

               12 March 2012 at 11:00 am

               so you’ve got nothing – no answers to any of my questions – you are totally delusional and a waste of time – how have I forgotton my past again LOL. If you don’t want me to flick you with a wet teatowel then don’t bait me for no reason.
               • vto …

                 12 March 2012 at 12:39 pm

                 Where was the baiting? It was you who climbed the lofty depths of confused moral high ground and forgot your own past and its military ways while at the same time deriding others for the same thing. I call that a baiting.

                 If you don’t like being questioned then don’t spout such bullshit.
                 • marty mars …

                   12 March 2012 at 11:09 pm

                   perhaps you can link to this heinous crime I can’t remember it.
               • vto …

                 12 March 2012 at 1:09 pm

                 “… and through inter-marriage and conquest these migrants merged with the resident Waitaha and took over authority of Te Waipounamu.” Ngai Tahu website.

                 LOL, this is exactly what I was referring to. A painting of history at odds with the reality. For example, why write “…through inter-marriage and conquest … took over authority” which implies inter-marriage was somehow equal at the time to conquest? I tell you why – because it makes for a better looking history when compared to writing “though military conquest the Waitaha were conquered and authority assumed by mamoe at the end of a taiaha. … ” As for inter-marriage, how long after the “conquest” was that? Or was it a result of the rape by soldiers?

                 face it marty mars, the history as written is not settled. Why else would it get raised in conversation when in certain parts of the South Island?

                 And as for your moral high ground when referencing european military escapades as compared your own, sheesh, your own website blows that one out of the water. Wake up fulla.
                 • Hateatea …

                   12 March 2012 at 5:17 pm

                   @ Vto – perhaps if you identified the particular sites where you had concerns with the interpretation, it might be possible to advise you more precisely as to where to address your complaints. Of course, where Marty lives and works has different stories as he is outside the rohe potae of Ngāi Tahu whānui.

                   I am also interested to know why you have not engaged with the information I gave you. Is your ‘fight’ specific to Marty or do you just want to carry on believing the Brailsford fairy stories?
                   • vto …

                     12 March 2012 at 6:59 pm

                     Hateatea, why would you think I place Brailsford over current history? I haven’t indicated that at all.

                     Regarding your pointers, I appreciate it. Sincerely. I don’t pick these ‘fights’ for fights sake. I have a genuine interest in these things. It is semi-amusing though how marty and I clash over these things.

                     I think I have made my point reasonably clearly above.

                     Appreciate the contact and think the conversation must be kept open – no matter how long it takes.
                 • marty mars …

                   12 March 2012 at 11:05 pm

                   “at odds with the reality” – your distorted reality vto
                   “which implies” – only in your head vto
                   “better looking history” – so you say vto

                   the knowledge is there vto of what happened in detail the fact is you aren’t ready for it and couldn’t handle it – it not yours and not for you.

                   your bigotry shows through loud and clear with your final ‘fulla’ – you show yourself.
                   • vto …

                     12 March 2012 at 11:10 pm

                     Get off the grass marty. Your post is as useless at the others, as I suggested previously. Once again you do nothing but point your points at me rather than the point. Have you got a point? Or do you just swallow everyone else’s goop?

                     And if you think the word ‘fulla’ is somehow pointing at something to do with you only then you are the one lacking reality. I’m out. Had enough.
                 • hateatea …

                   13 March 2012 at 12:29 am

                   ‘A painting of history at odds with the reality. For example, why write “…through inter-marriage and conquest … took over authority” which implies inter-marriage was somehow equal at the time to conquest? I tell you why – because it makes for a better looking history when compared to writing “though military conquest the Waitaha were conquered and authority assumed by mamoe at the end of a taiaha. … ” As for inter-marriage, how long after the “conquest” was that? Or was it a result of the rape by soldiers?’

                   Sorry, Vto, but I don’t understand why you are beating Marty up about something that he didn’t writeThere has never been any dispute, that I am personally aware of, that firstly Ngati Mamoe and later, Ngai Tahu fought to gain dominance of most of Te Wahi Pounemu. Equally, I have never personally heard anyone refute that there were many ‘rongopai’ marriages that ensured the peace and bound the strands of whakapapa together. One of the best known of these is observed at Poupoutunoa near Clinton. http://www.waitangi-tribunal.govt.nz/scripts/reports/reports/27/48D0AE4D-9734-410D-B1EE-14EB761D3F49.pdf

                   You have not been precise about the locales where you claim to have seen the offending lack of acknowledgement about other migration and settlement stories and your caginess lead both Marty and myself, independently of one another, to conclude that you may have been influenced by Barry Brailsford’s very romantic treatises on Waitaha.

                   If there is something specific to which you would like to refer, I wish you would just spit it out. I really do not like the constant jibing at Marty when neither he nor I, as far as I can tell, know of what he stands accused.

                   I am happy to engage in dialogue, I just need a clearer picture of what your real issue is with either Marty or Ngai Tahu (or both)
                   • vto …

                     13 March 2012 at 8:55 am

                     “Sorry, Vto, but I don’t understand why you are beating Marty up about something that he didn’t writeThere has never been any dispute, that I am personally aware of, that firstly Ngati Mamoe and later, Ngai Tahu fought to gain dominance of most of Te Wahi Pounemu. ”

                     I am questioning marty’s point some couple weeks ago that saw him clamber onto high moral ground and look down on the ways and means of the European as if they are / were somehow worse and more morally lacking than those of Maori at times of conquest or colonisation. His own history is the same, as you perfectly point out above. He chooses to ignore this and claim a superiority. That is what grates. An incorrect view of history and a hypocrisy. The line ‘the victor writes the history books’, so true through all of humanity, is entirely applicable.

                     That questioning by me of marty’s view then resurfaced through the example of Maori histories at tourist sites I happenned to come across some days ago, which also painted a view of their history seemingly at odds with other views. To further support this I copied just one part of Ngai Tahu’s website to indicate how the wording has been constructed to paint a more favourable picture than could otherwise have been written. He has not answered any of this except to say I am thick and no nothing. That is all he has said. Read it yourself, it is all there above and around.

                     You also say “You have not been precise about the locales where you claim to have seen the offending lack of acknowledgement about other migration and settlement stories and your caginess lead both Marty and myself, independently of one another, to conclude that you may have been influenced by Barry Brailsford’s very romantic treatises on Waitaha. If there is something specific to which you would like to refer, I wish you would just spit it out..”

                     No I haven’t been precise and I wont. The reasons for this relate to my activities in the South Island and the potential for personal exposure and its subsequent effects. You will appreciate that parts of the region are populated by few people who all know each other and live and work together. I am not putting that at jeopardy to satisfy a small example part of the wider issue I explained above.

                     You also say “I really do not like the constant jibing at Marty when neither he nor I, as far as I can tell, know of what he stands accused.”.

                     I invite you to re-read the above. Count up the personal attacks from marty and the lack of points made and evidence in support. It is marty who has on each post led the personal attack. Have a look. I am sick of it. He gets all upset everytime his understanding of the world gest questioned. Harrumphs, snorts, abuses and storms off. It is quite pathetic.

                     Marty claimed the moral high ground. I questioned it. He got all upset and has done nothing to support his claim.
                   • marty mars …

                     13 March 2012 at 11:32 am

                     “He chooses to ignore this and claim a superiority.”

                     no I don’t – please provide reference

                     “An incorrect view of history and a hypocrisy”

                     In your opinion or do you have backup for your ‘incorrect history’ story

                     “seemingly at odds with other views”

                     Which other views – come on provide your sources

                     “to paint a more favourable picture”

                     Once again in your view – favourable is subjective – my point to you is that you don’t know enough to understand the concept or content in relation to these matters, you are still looking through your blurred lense created by your own stuff.

                     You started this deliberate attack on me because you know I am part of the iwi. You added comments to my unrelated comments to bring up the point that you strongly wished to say. Yet you still waffle on scared to tell your truth. Here you go – get it out – tell me the real story.

                     “I don’t like Ngai Tahu”
                     “I don’t like maori getting special treatment”
                     “I don’t like maori not fitting in to our country” and so on…

                     Frankly, if it is actually about indigenous historial narratives and their use in creating perceptions and positioning for marginalised groups, I’ll eat my hat.
                   • marty mars …

                     13 March 2012 at 12:23 pm

                     hey vto I’ve made you famous now

                     http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2012/03/vto-and-me.html
                   • vto …

                     13 March 2012 at 1:00 pm

                     I’ve told you already marty, I’m out. Had enough and can’t have a general discussion with you without personal attacks from you.

                     I have provided examples and evidence e.g. Ngai Tahu website. Tourist sites.

                     You continue with your baseless and unsupported attacks on me personally rather than debate the issue. In addition you provide not one single piece of evidence or example or sample anywhere to support anything you have claimed about me. All you say is “you’re ignorant”.

                     And now you think I “started this because you are part of the iwi”. For fucks sake I had no idea of that and it is irrelevant. And now you say these things too ““I don’t like Ngai Tahu”
                     “I don’t like maori getting special treatment”
                     “I don’t like maori not fitting in to our country” and so on…

                     You are full of substanceless shit. Piss off
                   • marty mars …

                     13 March 2012 at 3:19 pm

                     jeepers what a sook

                     hopefully you’ll think twice before posting any more bullshit but somehow I doubt it.
                   • vto …

                     13 March 2012 at 4:32 pm

                     hollow again
     • hateatea 6.1.2

       8 March 2012 at 11:52 pm

       If the sites you visited had historical interpretation then you had the story from the perspective of the people who live locally ie the descendants of Ngai Tahu whanui. As most people don’t know how the whakapapa of Ngai Tahu is openly acknowledged as having the several strands, you may have confused the KISS principle for writing commentary for signage with suppression of other stories. It is more usual for available space to be the problem rather than a lack of knowledge of the whole history of an area.

       Historians such as Harry Evison, Atholl Anderson and Dr Te Maire Tau have all written extensively on the various migrations from north to south that have resulted in what is called Ngai Tahu today but like Marty, those who whakapapa to the iwi take great pride in the individual strands and the stories that are interwoven
     • hateatea 6.1.3

       13 March 2012 at 11:43 pm

       OK, this seems to be where it all started

       ‘Regarding theft of land – are you referring to Ngai Tahu and its military takeover and theft of the South Island and its resources such as pounamu, post European arrival?

       You later seemed to acknowledge that you had been a little over the top

       ‘As for the military takeover by Ngai Tahu – that was a tiny exaggeration to go with your exaggerated claim re theft of lands in your first post above.’

       Vto, it was more than exaggerated, it was a claim totally without foundation. Ngai Tahu had been in Te Wahi Pounemu long before the arrival of the sealers, whalers, traders and gun and while there were battles fought, describing it as a military takeover is more than a little OTT, isn’t it?
       ‘But why would it be such a shock to Ngai Tahu to learn of, or even begin to question, the warring ways to gain lands and resources which are then claimed from high moral ground under the treaty process in a subsequent century. Many parts of this period and history are quietly but forcefully shoved under the carpet. Perhaps a little more openness and honesty about what happenned then would be useful for all parties.’

       Who is shoving them under the carpet? All this and much, much more was well and truly aired during the 150 years between the beginning of the Ngai Tahu Claim and the Ngai Tahu Claims Settlement Act 
       ‘As an example, the true history of Ngai Tahu on Te Tai Poutini combined with the undercurrents of today regarding pounamu may be a good starting point.’
        
       There are many who feel that the role of their particular whanau or hapu has not been well served by the settlement process and I neither deny nor defend that. Indeed, many of them are whanaunga of mine.

       ‘I am questioning marty’s point some couple weeks ago that saw him clamber onto high moral ground and look down on the ways and means of the European as if they are / were somehow worse and more morally lacking than those of Maori at times of conquest or colonisation. His own history is the same, as you perfectly point out above. He chooses to ignore this and claim a superiority. That is what grates. An incorrect view of history and a hypocrisy. The line ‘the victor writes the history books’, so true through all of humanity, is entirely applicable.
       ‘No I haven’t been precise and I wont. The reasons for this relate to my activities in the South Island and the potential for personal exposure and its subsequent effects. You will appreciate that parts of the region are populated by few people who all know each other and live and work together. I am not putting that at jeopardy to satisfy a small example part of the wider issue I explained above’
       That questioning by me of marty’s view then resurfaced through the example of Maori histories at tourist sites I happenned to come across some days ago, which also painted a view of their history seemingly at odds with other views. To further support this I copied just one part of Ngai Tahu’s website to indicate how the wording has been constructed to paint a more favourable picture than could otherwise have been written. He has not answered any of this except to say I am thick and no nothing. That is all he has said. Read it yourself, it is all there above and around.’

       I have read it, once I tracked it all down. Mostly what I see is someone baiting and prodding (Vto) and someone who doesn’t really want to get into it (Marty) who sometimes was fairly terse in his responses to you. Forgive me if I have over simplified. The reality is that knowing our history and how it has created our particular whanau is something that is intensely personal and not one usually broadcast to the four winds 

       I understand the need for anonymity. I have a similar need and I may well be more easily identified than you. I don’t know. Nevertheless, your unwillingness to name any particular site  where you disagree with the interpretation makes it difficult to evaluate how real the issue is

       I think this matter got out of hand rather rapidly and that perhaps no one comes out of it totally without fault. I suppose that I would like to think that we can all move on from this rather than to continue to mount attacks and counter attacks everytime one of us sees the others screenname on a thread.

       That we all have our own world view is a given. It is what makes the blogosphere interesting but we needed be constantly butting heads here. There is enough of that out there in the real world without transferring it to the etherworld.

       Kia tau te rangimarie 
       • vto 6.1.3.1

         14 March 2012 at 8:21 am

         Pretty good summary there Hateatea, well done. I too want to keep these debates open and enjoy and seek out arenas to test various things.

         The problem that comes to mind from my perspective when raising these issues is that at times people do not like their seemingly solid foundations being questioned and they respond in a personal manner. That is understandable given our foible-filled character, though not particularly useful. Conversely, perhaps the issues could be raised by me in a better way.

         A similarly difficult long line of debate between marty and I occurred recently when I questioned the relevance of the structure of the Treaty of Waitangi (not its content) in today’s world. For various reasons I think it should be re-worked – but that just elicited all sorts of personal responses.

         Anyways, appreciate the thought and effort you have gone to. Last night I determined to take one of the matters above, the historical narratives at various tourist sites around the South Island, and dig deeper to evaluate the suggestions I have made re their realism or romanticism. If wrong I will admit it and change course (as I have done with other issues in the past). If not I would hope the same is offered in return. Watch this space.

         Onwards!
         • hateatea 6.1.3.1.1

           15 March 2012 at 12:28 am

           Thanks for taking the time to respond, Vto.

           I think that sometimes we are all inclined to forget that we are not receiving all the other clues we get in RL debate; body posture, facial movements, tone and pace of expression, merely flat words on a page and it can be far too easy to see aggression where none was intended.

           I look forward to further harmonious discussions
7. Jackal 7

   8 March 2012 at 10:36 am

   Richard Pearson – Asshole of the Week

   Yesterday, One News correspondent Stephen Smith reported that Ports of Auckland Chairman Richard Pearson refutes the Union claims that it was planning redundancies all along. Pearson ignores the fact that PoAL’s illegal Labour Strategy (PDF) that outlined how they would make the workers redundant has been made public…
   • Tiger Mountain 7.1

     8 March 2012 at 11:26 am

     Exactly Jackal, Pearson and the super city’s Mark Ford et al are the type of scumbags that rank right up there with Roger Douglas and Shonkey as traitors to this country.
8. lprent 8

   8 March 2012 at 12:53 pm

   Testing ajax edit.

   Lost the popup.
   • lprent 8.1

     8 March 2012 at 1:16 pm

     Test again.

     Ok – that looks like a bug
     • lprent 8.1.1

       8 March 2012 at 1:23 pm

       and again.
     • lprent 8.1.2

       8 March 2012 at 1:25 pm

       Interesting bug
9. Te Reo Putake 9

   8 March 2012 at 1:13 pm

    Pay Equity Challenge Coalition says little good news for women on International Women’s Day.
    
   Today marks the 101st International Women’s Day but according to the Pay Equity Challenge Coalition there is little good news for women workers.
    
   “The Government has shown by moving the Minister of Women’s Affairs outside of Cabinet that working women’s issues are not a priority,” says spokesperson Angela McLeod.
    
   “To add to that, the briefing to the new Minister doesn’t use the words “gender pay gap”  let alone provide effective solutions on how to reduce it.
    
   “According to the Quarterly Employment Survey figures, the gender pay gap for the final quarter last year was 13%, an increase from 12.85% in the September quarter.  This is completely unacceptable,” says Mrs McLeod. The gender gap is even bigger in some occupations and in one  public service department it reaches a high of 38%”
    
   “Members of the Coalition will be seeking a meeting with the Minister of Women’s Affairs to talk about real solutions to close the pay gap. “We think it’s important to value the work that women do and to pay them fairly.
    
   The Minister needs to understand that pay rates have to rise for women working in low paid occupations. The latest example is the Oceania residential aged care workers currently taking industrial action, who have been offered a pitiful 1% a year pay increase spread over three years. These workers are underpaid and undervalued yet take care of our respected and vulnerable elderly.    
    
   “Given that this is 2012 and is the Chinese Year of the Dragon, a year for prosperity, we’d like to see some more prosperity in the direction of the pay packets of these and other low paid working women,” Mrs McLeod adds.
    
   “A Government plan to close the gender pay gap is the news we want to hear”
    
10. stever 10

    8 March 2012 at 1:37 pm

    Great article on Ayn Rand (her birthday a few days ago) by Monbiot.

    A great quote: “[what would her disciples think] if they knew that towards the end of her life she signed on for both Medicare and social security”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/mar/05/new-right-ayn-rand-marx
11. Herodotus 11

    8 March 2012 at 3:25 pm

    An unneccessary spend of Govt money-
    Botany Downs Secondary School built 2005 – stormwater flow issues reported to MOE in 2005. Now after investigations we find out ….
    Pipes were undersized for the size of the school,poorly constructed, materials didn’t meet necessary regulatory codes, pipes installed incorrectly without adequate insulation,no concrete laid in base in stormwater holding tanks to use in irrigation of sports fields (And water leached out causing subsidence !!!), defects included sewage and sprinkle systems. And the MOE received Code of Compliance from the council. The result replacement of entire system by the MOE, with the MOE “considering” options into recovery of costs. How can this hapen !!!!! And where are those who should be accountable ???
    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      12 March 2012 at 11:22 pm

      Large numbers of NZ professionals, decision makers and tradesmen with subzero give-a-fuck factors.
12. Bored 12

    8 March 2012 at 5:02 pm

    Oh how the chickens come home to roost…..the column on “dumb arse POA management” resonates loudly, echos of ridiculous legislation by Douglas and a succession of ideologically blind fools.

    As a business person I have always thought the whole idea of “creating markets” on natural monopolies was perhaps the most stupid piece of foolishness ever. All we have done as a nation is surrender a key component of our international competitiveness to ideological folly with a very negative dollar impact upon businesses that actually do something. The only ones who benefit are the corporate big boys who have better negotiating power, the rest of business actually end up worse off.

    In a nut shell utilities (SOEs for power and transport etc) have been made to compete at cost to the rest of us. Capitaql that should have gone to productive enterprise has been captured to buy shares in these “rentier” ventures. Then you get the real stupidity….ports “competing” for the business of the likes of Maersk. How fucking stupid, it costs us all money. If they all belonged to “Waterfront NZ” SOE they might be able to plan rationally and negotiate effectively.

    Or perhaps look at the UBF roll out…..lots of smaller contractors and big private ventures clipping the ticket, us paying more either through direct costs or by tax subsidies…why the hell did we sell Telecom????? making it run better is one thing, making us pay a lot more to shareholders is entirely another. Absolute foolishness.
13. ScottGN 13

    8 March 2012 at 6:16 pm

    As someone who thought Goff was much under-appreciated as Leader of the Opposition I must say it’s great to see him getting up in The House and serving it up to the Govt day after day on the cuts to MFAT. The Govt has no idea where the leaks are going to come from next but they have a sinking feeling that they are going to keep on coming. Payback for Goff for the three years when all those half-arsed National MPs thought he was good to kick the shit out of.
    • deuto 13.1

      8 March 2012 at 9:24 pm

      I agree. Goff seems so much more relaxed/happy but is really giving it to them on this issue. Just wish the rest of Labour were doing such a good job. IMO the jury is still out re Shearer.
14. Jackal 14

    8 March 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Peter Dunne lying scum

    Today, Peter Dunne challenged people to find evidence of him saying he was against the sale of our assets prior to the last general election… challenge accepted!
    • Pete George 14.1

      8 March 2012 at 8:21 pm

      You won’t find anything of substance. Dunne has been clear and consistent, some try and nitpick but fail so they bluster.

      Here’s a direct link to the speech: http://inthehouse.co.nz/node/11829
      • phillip ure.. 14.1.1

        8 March 2012 at 8:44 pm

        so..you support yr leader..

        ..and want the assets sold..?

        phil@whoar.
        • Vicky32 14.1.1.1

          9 March 2012 at 3:16 pm

          phil@whoar.

          Just coming along to say that I heard you on Radio New Zealand two or so hours back, Phil!
          Best song ever written… Mine’s Solsbury Hill, but i like your choice…
    • ianmac 14.2

      8 March 2012 at 8:38 pm

      The consummate politician says what he thinks would go down well but with enough ambiguity to claim denial later, after an Election.
      Dunne? Definitely.
      Key? Very much so.
      • Pete George 14.2.1

        8 March 2012 at 8:52 pm

        Not at all, quite clear before and after to anyone who cares to check rather than just jump to conclusions.
        • marty mars 14.2.1.1

          8 March 2012 at 9:04 pm

          but what about now pete when the will of the people is obviously against the sales will dunne listen to the people? I hope you have his ear because surely you believe in following the will of the people and wise words are needed. Please no distracting with the election dah dee dah I know, I voted, but here and now McFlock was correct with the numbers and analysis.
        • rosy 14.2.1.2

          8 March 2012 at 9:23 pm

          “Not at all, quite clear before and after to anyone who cares to check rather than just jump to conclusions.”
          I did check.
          http://www.unitedfuture.org.nz/peter-dunne-address-to-deloitte-business

          Asset sales are on National’s agenda, but the jury is very much out on just how comfortable New Zealander’s are with this policy.
          – My take on it is that Kiwis are not very comfortable at all with it – most certainly not with anything close to open slather.
          – The many people who want John Key back in power for the next three years, want him in spite of asset sales and not because of them.
          – I sense very strongly that New Zealander’s do not want to give National a blank cheque on asset sales.

          I think that makes Ianmac correct when he says:
          “The consummate politician says what he thinks would go down well but with enough ambiguity to claim denial later, after an Election.”
    • Pete George 14.3

      8 March 2012 at 8:56 pm

      This is dishonest nonsense:

      “When you take peoples’ property against their consent, that is called theft. This Government is proposing to steal the assets from 100 per cent of New Zealanders and give it to the 1 per cent.”

      (Russell Norman)
      • Colonial Viper 14.3.1

        8 March 2012 at 9:35 pm

        well, theft is the main modus operandi of a kleptocracy.
      • KJT 14.3.2

        12 March 2012 at 11:08 am

        What else would you call it?
15. Reagan Cline 15

    8 March 2012 at 9:24 pm

    Jofhn Christiansen of Mt Albert could give his neighbour Judith Bassett a call and go search out some homeless vagrants to take home for a nice re-assuring cuppa with her and Micky. They could enjoy those nice scones (Mike’s Mum’s special recipe) and talk about Judith’s old headliner POA and how to get lead letter in the “New Zealand” Herald. Then drive them down to Hobson St and be awfully shocked on the way home with the thought of bloated human corpses in a city built on Fordism and a complete denial of the worth of a human person.
16. Morrissey 16

    8 March 2012 at 9:39 pm

    New evidence that excessive exposure to the sun can cause brain damage

    http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/new-evidence-that-excessive-exposure-to-the-sun-can-cause-brain-damage/

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