23 dinosaur councils refuse to sign Climate Change commitment

Written By: - Date published: 9:29 am, February 20th, 2019 - 78 comments
Categories: accountability, climate change, global warming, local government, Politics, sustainability - Tags: ,

There is this radical subversive group engaged in the undermining of the Kiwi way of life and advocating that we forgo our way of life and eat less red meat, drive more efficient cars and catch public transport more regularly.

Who is this group?

Is it Greenpeace?  The People’s republic of China?  

No it is Local Government New Zealand, a collective representing all local authorities in New Zealand.

It has drafted up the Local Government Leaders’ Climate Change Declaration.  The declaration contains this passage:

We ask that the New Zealand Government make it a priority to develop and implement an ambitious transition plan for a low carbon and resilient New Zealand. We stress the benefits of early action to moderate the costs of adaptation to our communities. We are all too aware of challenges we face shoring up infrastructure and managing insurance costs. These are serious financial considerations for councils and their communities.

To underpin this plan, we ask that a holistic economic assessment is undertaken of New Zealand’s vulnerability to the impacts of climate change and of the opportunities and benefits for responding. We believe that New Zealand has much at stake and much to gain by adopting strong leadership on climate change emission reduction targets.

It talks about the precautionary approach, kaitiakitanga, equity and justice, thinking and acting long-term, understanding, cooperation and resilience, all subversive stuff.

It is signed by comrades Dave Cull, Lianne Dalziel, Grant Smith, Ray Wallace, Phil Goff, Justin Lester and forty eight other mayors.

Strangely it does not have universal support.

Thames Coromandel Mayor and former National Party MP Sandra Goudie has expressed reservations and called the desire to save the world’s environment “politically charged”.

From Kate Gudsell at Radio New Zealand:

… mayor Sandra Goudie said she did not support it and most other councillors were cautious.

It would be irresponsible for the declaration to be signed because the council did not know what it would be committing ratepayers to, she said.

“It’s got statements which bind you to outcomes that you’ve got no idea of, so I wouldn’t sign a contract without knowing specifications.”

But she said the council was being proactive in terms of ensuring the community was protected and resilient in its vulnerable coastal areas.

Mrs Goudie refused to confirm whether she believed climate change was happening, saying she did not have an obligation to tell ratepayers what her opinion was.

Mrs Goudie said she was not obliged to reveal her stance on climate change because “I think it’s incredibly highly politically charged and driven and I don’t think that makes for a good basis for sound judgment”.

Get that?  It would be irresponsible to commit to doing something about climate change.

My interest peaked at her statement that the Council was being proactive in terms of protection and resilience.  This is the Council that granted consent to a retirement village and then put a coastal hazard inundation notation on the title warning that the village was in a potential coastal flood zone.

Denis Tegg, who has documented Thames Coromandel’s problems handling the implications of climate change, said this about the decision:

This is the appropriate response from TCDC because it helps inform prospective purchasers of units within the retirement village – including the new apartment building – that the land is subject to coastal flooding. Unfortunately, it comes too late for those retirees who have already committed their savings to buy a dwelling or unit in the last 14 years.

But from now on at least it helps the buyer beware – (provided they or their solicitor checks the title and become aware of the natural hazard notation.)  Also, the registration of the notation goes some way to protect TCDC from civil legal claims for granting a building consent for the new apartment complex on land known to be subject to a natural hazard.  (Section 392 of the Building Act 2004)

But this belated action of TCDC in registering a hazard notation on the title is of no benefit to existing holders of licenses to occupy in the Richmond Villas complex.  Since the original consent was granted in 2003 scores of retirees have made their decision to purchase a dwelling or unit without the advantage of knowing about a notation of a sea flood hazard.  Those current residents have been left high and dry – or more accurately low and potentially wet. 

There are apparently 23 authorities who have not signed up to the declaration.  I presume this dinosaur authority is one of them.

We have local government elections later this year.  I hope that as candidate’s views on what to do about climate change is the first thing that voters consider.

78 comments on “23 dinosaur councils refuse to sign Climate Change commitment ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. patricia bremner 1
    20 February 2019 at 11:02 am

    Great post Mickey. Which other councils do not want to do something about climate change? Their citizens have a right to know. As you say…. Elections are nigh. Coramandel, West Coast regional, and???

  2. Sabine 2
    20 February 2019 at 11:27 am

    would that notice be of interest to potential insurers?

    you have been warned, and thus the council despite handing out a permit will wash their hands in innocence and refute any claims levied against them, and insurers will simply refuse to issue flood insurance?

    Again, its up to the People of the Coromandels to vote for a representative body that might be more interested in foresight rather then hindsight. But if rates is all you care about, then of course you will be voting for the lowest bidder.

    • OnceWasTim 2.1
      20 February 2019 at 12:46 pm

      +1 @ Sabine
      For me, it seems a really far cry from the Coromandel of the 1970’s and 80s, although maybe not after all that ‘Class of 87’ shit. I still have some problems understanding how some of my contemporaries (peace love and goodwill to all mankind ‘types’) so readily hitched their wagon to the neo-liberal. All I can put it down to was that they were actually full of shit in the first place, and now I think about it, many, if not most came from upper-muddle class or ‘old-money backgrounds.
      I’m thinking it’s probably best to leave them all to it, and if they want to continue to shit in their own nest, then maybe it’s better to let them be buried in it

      • Sabine 2.1.1
        20 February 2019 at 1:23 pm

        well i guess we shall hear from them again when their properties flood, and the insurance says NO NO NO, and the council says TOUGH SHIT and the government says please move and be evacuated.

        In saying that there is a lot of heart break coming up in our future due to costal flooding and property destruction. Some will be rich enough to rebuild elsewhere, others will not be so lucky.

        But for a council to issue a building permit in a flood zone, to issue a notice after the fact that should be criminal. And people who bought into the scheme before the notice about floods was issued should be able to get out of the contract.

      • Pat 2.1.2
        20 February 2019 at 6:53 pm

        “I still have some problems understanding how some of my contemporaries (peace love and goodwill to all mankind ‘types’) so readily hitched their wagon to the neo-liberal.”

        two words…. Mike Williams

        • OnceWasTim 2.1.2.1
          20 February 2019 at 8:45 pm

          Well exactly @ Pat. But still – (as I said already) they really had to be full of shit in the first place if their principles can so easily have been captured. And especially for many of them, who if they had to cash up tomorrow, they’d probably realise just how indebted and impoverished they actually are and the legacy they’re leaving their chillun.

  3. marty mars 3
    20 February 2019 at 11:34 am

    These council members have shown themselves to be unfit at best and dangerous at worse. Sack them all and barr ex members from running again.

    • cleangreen 3.1
      20 February 2019 at 3:41 pm

      100% Marty Mars, with you all the way.

      Government must now hold an urgent high powered legal overreaching meeting on this ‘shabby lot of errant Councils’ now.

      As National government (Nick Smith) did in their term; – they sacked the the Canterbury regional council when they also went rogue.

      “The Environment Minister, Nick Smith, says Canterbury leaders called on the Government to intervene, saying he is offended by allegations the Government has an agenda.”

      Government need to take them over and appoint an administrative Commissioner to run them all.

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/53378/protest-in-christchurch-after-govt-sacks-regional-council
      Protest in Christchurch after Govt sacks regional council
      6:52 pm on 31 March 2010

      More than 100 people protested in Christchurch on Wednesday over the Government’s decision to sack the Canterbury regional councillors and replace them with its own commissioners.

      The protestors say it is anti-democratic and the Government is making way for large amounts of water to be taken from rivers, to irrigate the land for what they say are unsuitable uses in the Canterbury plains, such as dairy farming.

      Christine Dann organised the four protests outside the offices of National Party MPs.

      Ms Dann says the Government has thrown away democracy and is rushing the change through Parliament.

      The Environment Minister, Nick Smith, says Canterbury leaders called on the Government to intervene, saying he is offended by allegations the Government has an agenda.

    • Bewildered 3.2
      20 February 2019 at 4:27 pm

      Yep that’s democracy in action Marto and surly will not garner a negative response

  4. tc 4
    20 February 2019 at 11:53 am

    Great opportunity to flush out the owned mayor’s and councilors.

    This is about future generations that these comfy owned incumbents will be long gone from.

  5. greywarshark 5
    20 February 2019 at 11:57 am

    TRPs post on Zero Carbon Bill is required reading I think. (Perhaps Chris T and others who are coated with information-resistance teflon-spray could use this to see if the barrier could be broached).
    https://thestandard.org.nz/does-the-west-coast-regional-council-exist/

    I like TRPs caption for open-cast coal mining which is very ironic.

  6. OnceWasTim 6
    20 February 2019 at 12:29 pm

    I listened to Ms. Goudie on RNZ this morning.
    I thought FARK! – is she for real? …..but YES she was!
    Wasn’t she just the ticket!. We really do get the politicians we deserve I suppose, except I’m still not sure why she didn’t opt for a fading career on some Joolie Krusty produced reality TV show
    And we actually PAY some of these people for their ignorance!

    • Macro 6.1
      20 February 2019 at 2:30 pm

      Yep! The thing is, she is hugely good at door knocking, is personable, and gets out and about. Plus the problem with our district is that although there are a good number of green and labour minded folk (there are two retired green MPs in the Thames district) we now have one of the highest proportions of retired folk in the country and an equally high percentage of farmers. It’s pretty much a blue seat and they can parachute almost anyone in here and they would be elected.
      Just yesterday TCDC Climate Change related workshop in Thames to which the very vocal Alistair Brickell gave another rant denying climate change and sea level rise. 🙄 Fortunately there were a couple of other submitters who were more than capable of countering the ignorance. Just how much attention was given, is another matter.
      I look out my window as I type this to see a large crane constructing the 72 Apartments right next to the river mouth and the encroaching sea. A king tide even now floods almost to the main road into the town, and just behind where the Apartments are being built. How any one in their right mind would approve such a building I fail to understand.
      During the 5 jan 18 storm the waves were right over the current stop bank and flooding within centimetres of the existing villas. Only the mangroves that grow along the foreshore saved the village from worse inundation. TCDC were also responsible for a stupid Bill to Parliament that would have granted carte blanche removal of mangroves. Fortunately that Bill was heavily amended by the current Govt to allow only limited removal of mangroves – mainly in Whangamata – Sandra Goudie’s local area.

  7. veutoviper 7
    20 February 2019 at 1:12 pm

    From the Local Government NZ website:

    “The local government sector consists of:

    — 11 regional councils;

    — 61 territorial authorities – 11 are city councils and 50 are district councils; and

    — Six unitary councils – which are territorial authorities with regional council responsibilities.

    The 78 councils have about 1600 elected members…”

    http://www.lgnz.co.nz/nzs-local-government/

    I have compared the 54 councils which have signed the Declaration to date with the lists of the above 78 Councils on the website, The following is a list of the 24 Councils *that have not signed (or rather, not yet signed) the Declaration to date:

    Zone One = 5 Councils in total
    1. Far North District Council
    2. Kaipara District Council
    3. Whangarei District Council

    Zone Two = 19 Councils
    1. Hamilton City Council
    2. Opotiki District Council
    3. Otorohanga District Council
    4. Taupo District Council
    5. Thames-Coromandel District Council

    Zone Three = 17 Councils
    1. Horowhenua District Council
    2. Manawatu District Council
    3. South Taranaki District Council
    4. Stratford District Council
    5. Tararua District Council
    6. Wairoa District Council

    Zone Four = 9 councils
    All signed

    Zone Five = 18 Councils
    1. Ashburton District Council
    2. Buller District Council
    3. Hurunui District Council
    4. Mackenzie District Council
    5. Timaru District Council
    6. Waimate District Council
    7. West Coast Regional Council
    8. Westland District Council

    Zone Six = 10 Councils
    1. Queenstown-Lakes District Council
    2. Waitaki District Council

    Note that all the councils that have not signed as yet are District Councils. All Regional Councils, City Councils and Unitary Councils seem to have signed.

    If anyone wants to follow up with one or more of these unsigned councils as to why they haven’t done so, here is a link to the Local Councils NZ website page with links to all council websites:

    http://www.lgnz.co.nz/nzs-local-government/new-zealands-councils/

    • veutoviper 7.1
      20 February 2019 at 1:26 pm

      Being a pesky pedant, I meant to mention that the total number of outstanding councils who have not signed the Declaration appears to be 24 not 23 as per the title of the post – which aligns with the total of 78 councils and the total of 54 signatures on the Declaration linked to in the post.

      Here is a list of the 54 signatories from the Declaration:

      1. Mayor Dave Cull Dunedin City Council
      2. Mayor Grant Smith Palmerston North City Council
      3. Mayor Rachel Reese Nelson City Council
      4. Mayor Wayne Guppy Upper Hutt City Council
      5. Chris Laidlaw, Chair Greater Wellington Regional Council
      6. Mayor Winston Gray Kaikoura District Council
      7. Mayor Lianne Dalziel Christchurch City Council
      8. Mayor Ray Wallace Hutt City Council
      9. Mayor Steve Chadwick Rotorua Lakes Council
      10. Mayor Don Cameron Ruapehu District Council
      11. Mayor David Ayers Waimakariri District Council
      12. Mayor Bill Dalton Napier City Council
      13. Mayor Gary Tong, JP Southland District Council
      14. Mayor Andy Watson Rangitikei District Council
      15. Mayor Allan Sanson Waikato District Council
      16. Mayor Justin Lester Wellington City Council
      17. Mayor Phil Goff Auckland Council
      18. Mayor Sam Broughton Selwyn District Council
      19. Rex Graham, Chair Hawke’s Bay Regional Council
      20. Mayor Lyn Patterson Masterton District Council
      21. Stephen Woodhead, Chair Otago Regional Council
      22. Mayor Tony Bonne Whakatane District Council
      23. Mayor K (Guru) Gurunathan Kāpiti Coast District Council
      24. Mayor Bryan Cadogan Clutha District Council
      25. Mayor John Tregidga Hauraki District Council
      26. Mayor Neil Holdom New Plymouth District Council
      27. Mayor John Booth Carterton District Council
      28. Mayor Alex Walker Central Hawke’s Bay District Council
      29. Bill Shepherd, Chair Northland Regional Council
      30. Mayor Tracy Hicks Gore District Council
      31. Mayor Jenny Shattock South Waikato District Council
      32. Mayor Tim Shadbolt Invercargill City Council
      33. Mayor Brian Hanna Waitomo District Council
      34. Mayor Viv Napier South Wairarapa District Council
      35. David MacLeod, Chair Taranaki Regional Council
      36. Mayor Tim Cadogan Central Otago District Council
      37. Mayor John Leggett Marlborough District Council
      38. Mayor Hamish McDouall Whanganui District Council
      39. Acting Mayor Sandra Hazlehurst Hastings District Council
      40. Steve Lowndes, Acting Chair Environment Canterbury
      41. Doug Leeder, Chair Bay of Plenty Regional Council
      42. Alan Livingston, Chair Waikato Regional Council
      43. Mayor Greg Brownless Tauranga City Council
      44. Mayor Meng Foon Gisborne District Council
      45. Mayor Mike Tana Porirua City Council
      46. Mayor Alfred Preece Chatham Islands Council
      47. Mayor Jim Mylchreest Waipa District Council
      48. Mayor Jan Barnes Matamata-Piako District Council
      49. Mayor Garry Webber Western Bay of Plenty District Council
      50. Bruce Gordon, Chair Horizons Regional Council
      51. Nicol Horrell, Chair Environment Southland
      52. Mayor Richard Kempthorne Tasman District Council
      53. Mayor Malcolm Campbell Kawerau District Council
      54. Mayor Tony Kokshoorn Grey District Council

      And here is a list of the 78 Councils:

      Zone One
      1. Auckland Council
      2. Far North District Council
      3. Kaipara District Council
      4. Northland Regional Council
      5. Whangarei District Council

      Zone Two
      6. Bay of Plenty Regional Council
      7. Gisborne District Council
      8. Hamilton City Council
      9. Hauraki District Council
      10. Kawerau District Council
      11. Matamata-Piako District Council
      12. Opotiki District Council
      13. Otorohanga District Council
      14. South Waitomo DC
      15. Rotorua Lakes Council
      16. Taupo District Council
      17. Tauranga City Council
      18. Thames-Coromandel District Council
      19. Waikato District Council
      20. Waikato Regional Council
      21. Waipa District Council
      22. Waitomo District Council
      23. Western Bay of Plenty District Council
      24. Whakatane District Council

      Zone Three
      25. Central Hawke’s Bay District Council
      26. Hastings District Council
      27. Hawke’s Bay Regional Council
      28. Horizons Regional Council
      29. Horowhenua District Council
      30. Manawatu District Council
      31. Napier City Council
      32. New Plymouth District Council
      33. Palmerston North City Council
      34. Rangitikei District Council
      35. Ruapehu District Council
      36. South Taranaki District Council
      37. Stratford District Council
      38. Taranaki Regional Council
      39. Tararua District Council
      40. Wairoa District Council
      41. Whanganui District Council

      Zone Four
      42. Carterton District Council
      43. Greater Wellington Regional Council
      44. Hutt City Council
      45. Kapiti Coast District Council
      46. Masterton District Council
      47. Porirua City Council
      48. South Wairarapa District Council
      49. Upper Hutt City Council
      50. Wellington City Council

      Zone Five
      51. Ashburton District Council
      52. Buller District Council
      53. Chatham Islands Council
      54. Christchurch City Council
      55. Environment Canterbury
      56. Grey District Council
      57. Hurunui District Council
      58. Kaikoura District Council
      59. Mackenzie District Council
      60. Marlborough District Council
      61. Nelson City Council
      62. Selwyn District Council
      63. Tasman District Council
      64. Timaru District Council
      65. Waimakariri District Council
      66. Waimate District Council
      67. West Coast Regional Council
      68. Westland District Council

      Zone Six
      69. Central Otago District Council
      70. Clutha District Council
      71. Dunedin City Council
      72. Environment Southland
      73. Gore District Council
      74. Invercargill City Council
      75. Otago Regional Council
      76. Queenstown-Lakes District Council
      77. Southland District Council
      78. Waitaki District Council

      NOTE: There are 50 North Island Councils (Zones 1 – 4) and 27 South Island Councils (Zones 5 and 6) – PLUS the Chathams Islands Council which is included in Zone 5.

    • mickysavage 7.2
      20 February 2019 at 1:53 pm

      Thanks VV very helpful.

      • veutoviper 7.2.1
        20 February 2019 at 2:14 pm

        Sorry, I did not mean to swamp your great post, but I wondered which councils had not signed and my question went from there and developed a life of its own! LOL. But from my old work experience, I have a number of tricks to make such searches etc relatively easy and quick, so I thought I might as well share the full results.

        • patricia bremner 7.2.1.1
          20 February 2019 at 3:07 pm

          veutoviper, hello, did you see my reply to your query as to my health? xx
          Thrilled to see our Rotorua Mayor and Council have signed.

          • veutoviper 7.2.1.1.1
            20 February 2019 at 3:30 pm

            Had missed it patricia but have now replied to it so as to not be off topic here. Cheers.

    • Bearded Git 7.3
      20 February 2019 at 4:20 pm

      I will hassle QLDC

      • veutoviper 7.3.1
        20 February 2019 at 4:47 pm

        Good on you. Go well.

        Actually Zone 6 have done well at 8/10 – second behind Zone 4 (Wellington Region)

  8. RedLogix 8
    20 February 2019 at 1:13 pm

    “I think it’s incredibly highly politically charged and driven and I don’t think that makes for a good basis for sound judgment”.

    And there is the problem the left created when it implicitly linked dealing to climate change with ‘the end of capitalism’. Given that more than 95% of the population were never going to buy into that agenda we simply created a road block to action.

    • left_forward 8.1
      20 February 2019 at 2:15 pm

      Hey BlueLogics, do the maths: 54 / 78 = 69%.
      Hardly living up to your moniker.

      • RedLogix 8.1.1
        20 February 2019 at 3:23 pm

        That’s a gormless answer if ever. Are you saying that 69% of Local Govt Councils are now calling for the abolition of capitalism? Or would that be a strawman?

        • left_forward 8.1.1.1
          20 February 2019 at 3:46 pm

          If it is indeed gormless, then no less gormless than your 95% made up figure to suggest a populist alliance who believe we should take a reductionist approach to tackling climate change.

          What we are reading here is that 69% of Councils in NZ are ready to tackle climate change and are ready to accept the consequences in relation to what it will cost and how it will transform our traditional economic approaches, particularly the way we exploit our natural resources for the sole purpose of growth and profit at the expense of the environment and public good.

          Tackling climate change will require us to take an integrated approach to redesigning our human attitude to our natural world, and consider the environmental impact of all of our social and economic systems.

    • AB 8.3
      20 February 2019 at 3:07 pm

      You could equally argue that the right are creating the problem by insisting that any solution to climate change must be consistent with a predominantly capitalist economy and preservation of their existing wealth – or else it’s over their dead body.
      In fact it’s likely that the right will try to use any impending climate crisis to further entrench capitalism and make it operate even more brutally to their advantage. They do love a crisis after all.
      So don’t go blaming the left – this is going to be a vicious business and I have children to be afraid for.

      • RedLogix 8.3.1
        20 February 2019 at 3:26 pm

        The entire problem would have been solved decades ago … just as we did with ozone depletion … if radical elements on the left had not conflated the agenda with ‘the end of capitalism’. That immediately created a suspicion in the minds of a very substantial fraction of people that has been exploited by the fossil fuel doubt creation industry ever since.

        We shot ourselves in the foot.

        • Bewildered 8.3.1.1
          20 February 2019 at 4:29 pm

          Spot on and still stands today, hence the need for blue greens

        • AB 8.3.1.2
          20 February 2019 at 5:53 pm

          That is plainly ludicrous given that the economic vested interests in fossil fuels dwarfs anything similar with cfc propellants.

          • RedLogix 8.3.1.2.1
            20 February 2019 at 8:09 pm

            The left is really weak at owning it’s mistakes.

            No question vested interests would have caused trouble, but politically polarising an essentially scientific issue was their single biggest win. And we fucking handed it to them.

            • Pat 8.3.1.2.1.1
              20 February 2019 at 8:17 pm

              so for 28 years (plus) those warning about CC have been calling for the end of capitalism…..hmmmm….thats a long bow you have there

              • RedLogix …
                20 February 2019 at 10:34 pm

                Look at this thread alone … the link is clearly implicit in many people’s minds.

                • Pat …
                  20 February 2019 at 10:43 pm

                  You may (a very debatable ‘may’ id add) have a case if you had said the very recent alignment of CC mitigation and system change had an impact on perception, unfortunately you said…

                  “The entire problem would have been solved decades ago … just as we did with ozone depletion … if radical elements on the left had not conflated the agenda with ‘the end of capitalism’”

                  CC was barely recognised by the general public “decades ago”…indeed the system change that bought down a ‘radical left’ (not) government was light bulbs and showerheads

                  • RedLogix …
                    20 February 2019 at 10:53 pm

                    This is the kind of change that will make a real difference:

                    Australia’s largest coal miner Glencore has announced it will limit its future coal production capacity “broadly to current levels” in response to “the increasing risks posed by climate change”.

                    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-20/glencore-to-limit-future-coal-production-over-climate-change/10831154

                    By itself this is not enough and easily mocked, but it’s in the right direction. Just a few years ago this announcement would have been unthinkable. In another few years industry will move even more. Momentum.

                    We can faff on about ‘systems change’ and ‘integrated approaches’ all we like (and there is nothing especially wrong with that), but unless the big money end of town moves, little useful change will happen.

                    • Pat …
                      20 February 2019 at 10:57 pm

                      how many years do you think we have to cease net emissions Red?

                    • KJT …
                      20 February 2019 at 10:59 pm

                      If your idea is to wait for corporatism to do the right thing, you are going to be imitating King Canute, first.

                    • RedLogix …
                      20 February 2019 at 11:07 pm

                      At the moment it’s too slow; but in just the past few years we’ve been seeing this sort of change of direction. It’s likely to accelerate.

                      We have to hope very much that it does.

                    • Pat …
                      20 February 2019 at 11:10 pm

                      assuming you are not on your deathbed Red I suspect theres a very high probability you will see the system change you rail against….one way or the other

            • KJT 8.3.1.2.1.2
              20 February 2019 at 10:50 pm

              This is bullshit.
              Simple reality is, an economic system which hinges on infinitely expanding use of resources, was going to crash against the resource limits, at some stage.

              You can blether on about “shooting in the foot” all you like. Late stage corporate capitalism, is simply incompatible with a future for human civilisation.

              You want to be, Easter Islanders?

              • Pat …
                20 February 2019 at 10:56 pm

                it is simply one of the delay/confusion lines that is promoted to avoid action….whatever we do we musnt alter the status quo irrespective of the outcome

              • RedLogix …
                20 February 2019 at 11:05 pm

                And without ‘late stage corporate capitalism’ our economies collapse catastrophically with immediately devastating outcomes. I understand exactly what you’re saying, I would have said the same myself for years.

                But what this misses is just how immensely complex and interlocking our modern industrial economies are, how deeply linked the myriad technical components are to make it all work. And how very dependent on this infrastructure are the lives of billions. We can’t just turn it off any more, nor can it continue in the carbon burning mode that got it this far.

                This is a massive challenge, and the problem is not solved with mungbeans and chanting OM. It’s a hard science and engineering problem, it’s rapid economic transition off carbon onto renewables and a whole new industrial paradigm. We should have started on the task 20 years ago; hell even earlier Margaret Thatcher understood the problem, but the left/right political polarisation has been an utter disaster, plunging us into decades of paralysis that are only now showing signs of easing.

                And interestingly what I’m seeing is that none of this has much to do with any Green Parties around the world; it’s big business working out for itself what the reality is and looking for the next big opportunity.

                • KJT …
                  20 February 2019 at 11:08 pm

                  Or. We can carry on as we are, and the environment collapses, followed by the economy?

                  The choices are, find an alternative to exploitative capitalism, and develop an economically and environmentally sustainable society, or die!

                  • RedLogix …
                    20 February 2019 at 11:26 pm

                    My point is this; capitalism is the most powerful economic tool we have ever developed in terms of producing wealth. It’s weak at distributing that wealth effectively, and weaker still at correctly attributing costs but those flaws are best attributed to how neoliberalism led us to misuse this tool.

                    Because I agree right now in order to survive we need a radical economic and engineering transition on a massive scale, unprecedented in human history. I’m arguing we need this tool to start working better than ever before; we need to start using it smart.

                    • KJT …
                      21 February 2019 at 7:45 am

                      Was it “”capitalism” or “socialist” mass education and co operation that really kick started the modern world, as we know it?

                      You may try asking an African farmer, who was adequately and happily, sufficiently fed and housed working a few hours a day. How capitalism destroyed his world, by manufacturing scarcity, so he was forced to beg for work in city slums.

                      The “tool” is simply incapable of doing what is required, without State investment, regulation and co operation.

                    • Pat …
                      21 February 2019 at 6:08 pm

                      “Because I agree right now in order to survive we need a radical economic and engineering transition on a massive scale, unprecedented in human history.”

                      But you want a transition that is not radical….all you have posted demands incrementalism ….and sadly you have no concept of time…even sadder is you are in large company in that.

                • marty mars …
                  20 February 2019 at 11:12 pm

                  Nah red you’re on the wrong side. The attitude you expouse is the reason we are up shit creek now.

              • marty mars …
                20 February 2019 at 11:08 pm

                +1 yep just silly blaming the left. Capitalism and its greedy sick adherents have doomed humanity end of story.

                • RedLogix …
                  20 February 2019 at 11:19 pm

                  And you are typing this on a computer that is a quantum mechanical miracle that is entirely the product of the ‘greedy sick capitalism’ you denounce.

                  If you look around the room you are in, consider how every aspect of your daily life is intimately linked to this capitalism you want to destroy.

                  Maybe my profession means that I see it more clearly than most; but truly pick one single object, a glass on your table, a piece of clothing, every component of your house, and on and on expanding outward … every single item is the result of an astoundingly intricate system of production. At each step there are layers and layers of technology and systems most people have only a dim awareness of.

                  All brought to you by a capitalist system that we depend on as much as the air we breath.

                  • Pat …
                    20 February 2019 at 11:26 pm

                    “All brought to you by a capitalist system that we depend on as much as the air we breath.”

                    And therein lies the misconception….humans can survive without those systems (capitalist or not) but we cannot survive with them….as an engineer you should see the simplicity of the problem

                    • RedLogix …
                      20 February 2019 at 11:28 pm

                      Of course we can survive without industrialisation … it just won’t look anything like life as you and I know it.

                    • KJT …
                      21 February 2019 at 8:11 am

                      Who is suggesting “removing industrialization” ?

                      No one here.

                      And yes, market capitalism works, better than the known alternatives, for distribution. Though it is still flawed. When there are a lot of small suppliers and knowledgeable buyers, it works extremely well, and the rate of profit approaches zero. As it does in New Zealand, with small building firms.

                      When we get to large monopolies, corporates the shareholders/funders manipulate the market to get out much more than they invested. For this to continue, infinite growth is required.

                      “Infinite growth is not possible, in a finite world”.

                  • Pat …
                    20 February 2019 at 11:39 pm

                    the life you and i know currently know is very different from the life of the majority in the world, is very different from the life of our parents/grandparents and even very different than the life i knew as a child….things change and what we know now is a small point in time, it is not set in stone.

                    • RedLogix …
                      21 February 2019 at 12:41 am

                      Yes I’m vividly aware of that. Human life has changed dramatically in 200 years. Mostly for the better.

                      Just 200 years ago most people lived in absolute poverty, subject to disease, crippling accidents, no dentistry, little warmth in winter, poor food, no running water, sanitation, grinding hard labour and drudgery, or dangerous work at sea or at war. Slavery was still commonplace, violence was a daily threat and reality. Policing was rudimentary and the courts unreliable, laws were capriciously enforced. The lives of women were constrained by their vulnerability, pregnancy, domestic work, and care for the young and elderly.

                      Most people remained illiterate and largely ignorant of the greater possibilities of life. Education was limited and constrained to basics.

                      Industrialisation changed everything. At first slowly but now rapidly extending to all the human race. And we have no Plan B, without all this intricate technology we go backwards dramatically. Only with 7 billion mouths to feed instead of less than 1 billion.

                  • marty mars …
                    21 February 2019 at 7:22 am

                    You always go down this line. You may be bought and sold by the system but a lot of us aren’t. You love it and some of us hate it. You are privileged and some of us aren’t. Pull your head out your bum and see that people are not all like you in your ivory tower.

                    “All brought to you by a capitalist system that we depend on as much as the air we breath.” and that sentence shows why you are well off base. It is absolutely NOT TRUE not even close lol

                  • KJT …
                    21 February 2019 at 7:34 am

                    “Confusing the market with capitalism, is a common misconception by both the left and the right.”

  9. infused 9
    20 February 2019 at 2:22 pm

    Good. Councils finally work on behalf of their ratepayers.

    It’s simple. Explain the detail, or stfu.

  10. Exkiwiforces 10
    20 February 2019 at 2:28 pm

    Just wait when the insurance companies and banks start to refuse them service, when costs/ repairs going up and profits/returns go south IRT CC. Then these muppets will start screaming blue murder and expect the state to bail them as usual for their cock up.

    • Macro 10.1
      20 February 2019 at 2:41 pm

      We have already had the insurance companies here last year advising that any homes along the Thames coastline will be uninsurable in the near future.

      Much of the Thames township is also flood prone and has been since its inception in 1867 when it sprang into being with the declaration of the Thames Goldfield. Descriptions of the town in the 1870’s was that it was almost always knee deep in mud! There were at that time around 40,000 inhabitants and the town had a bigger population than Auckland.

      • Exkiwiforces 10.1.1
        20 February 2019 at 3:02 pm

        My late NZ Grandfather was born just down the rd at Te Aoha and he said Thames was always a mess after a good rain and a with King tide thrown in just to keep it interesting.

        From the sounds of it, a number of these councils who don’t want to sign for whatever their reason IRT CC are going to find themselves in the hurt locker and I hope the state ie Government and Treasury give them a bit of tough love. It may sound mean and I a heartless bastard, but these Councils and the ratepayers need to understand that the State needs to draw a line when it’s to CC weather events.

        BrisVegas and the Gold Coast (SEQ) could cop a hit this weekend with Cyclone Oma and when I living in SEQ out by RAAF Amberley, the weather boffins were saying back 04-05 that SEQ will get hit by one and it would slowly increase over the years IRT CC.

        • RedLogix 10.1.1.1
          20 February 2019 at 3:28 pm

          It looks like it will land more in the Fraser Is, Bundaberg area at this point, but yes still unpleasant. 60 knot winds in Moreton Bay should prove interesting.

        • KJT 10.1.1.2
          20 February 2019 at 6:18 pm

          I remember sandbagging down by the river, when I was at Thames high school. The whole lower town has a history of flooding.

          Never mind, the “socialists” will bail them out, when the new developments are underwater.

          • Exkiwiforces 10.1.1.2.1
            20 February 2019 at 7:12 pm

            Or the “No Mates Party” helping their mates out while at the expense of everyone else.

          • Macro 10.1.1.2.2
            20 February 2019 at 9:18 pm

            The Waikato Regional council are currently installing a massive stop bank along the town side bank of the Karangahaki river. and the council have just finished installing massive storm water drains so there is some abatement to flooding. however the town basin down by the wharf – next to where the 72 retirement apartments are currently being built – is subsiding quite rapidly.
            The seawall beside Danby Field has in the past slumped over 1.5m. Right next to the Richmond Villas. The link is an image of an Extract from Ministry of Works letter in 1980’s
            So the TCDC should have known that even discounting sea level rise from AGW, that area of Thames is going to become inundated sooner rather than later!
            I thought this comment was particularly rich.

            mayor Sandra Goudie said she did not support it and most other councillors were cautious.

            It would be irresponsible for the declaration to be signed because the council did not know what it would be committing ratepayers to, she said.

            And yet there she and the council have permitted the building of 72 Apartments in perhaps the most vulnerable location in NZ, and knowingly committed residents and future rate payers to the cost of picking up the tab of their incompetence.

    • peterlepaysan 10.2
      20 February 2019 at 9:58 pm

      There are things like tectonic plates that can have very dramatic effects, (ask Kaikoura)on the NZ land/seascape. Napier, Edgecumbe also has knowledge.

      This can also (seriously ) affect coastline property values on the eastern coast of NZ

      Insurance , banking and other extortionists notice this.

      As far as climate change is concerned any committment has to do with human activity and its effects. The climate on this planet has been very variable for many millions of years for unexplained reasons, 99.9% preindustrial.

      I think the speed of climate change has been seriouly accelerated by industrialision via petrochemicals. What we can do to slow it down is problematic. Local councils are elected to care for their local communities, not the planet.

      Having said that ratepayers, councils all live on the planet.

      Maybe the oil, coal, gas, and plastic companies should step up instead of councils and ratepayers.

      Let us tax plastic and petrochemical users.

      I drive a diesel truck and am happy to pay tax.

      I am totally pissed off with the completely unnecessary use of plastic

  11. cleangreen 11
    20 February 2019 at 3:51 pm

    If Nick Smith sacked Canterbury Regional Council and installed his Commissioner then in his time; – why doesn’t he scream here to sack those 23 Councils and install commissioners there as well?

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/53378/protest-in-christchurch-after-govt-sacks-regional-council

    • Macro 11.1
      20 February 2019 at 4:41 pm

      Because CG they are his “mates”, and the “no mates” party needs to preserve all they have right now. Anyway the agenda for Smith with ECANs was to remove a Council who were standing in the way of his farmer mates sucking the living daylights out of the aquafers.

  12. Observer Tokoroa 12
    20 February 2019 at 4:44 pm

    The Mad

    It is amazing that so many Kiwis of Public standing do not know what damage Water can do.

    We can understand the simpleton Trolls who empty the Shit Bins for Simon Whatisname and Mrs Bennett.

    After all, it is the right of Sods from the Wealthy End of Town to defecate wherever they want – and on whom they want.

    Mrs Bennett is a privilged nasty girl and an expert in revealing private and unsavoury information. It is the only thing she knows how to do. The Leopard Skin Sod.

    Rural NZ is basically a dump for the Mad. With Simon as the seriously confused Director. He’s got shags and stuffed penguins all over the place. Not to mention Night mare Dutch Cows.

  13. Molly 13
    20 February 2019 at 6:07 pm

    Direction for local government, and legislative authority for implementation for all councils could be done by the current government issuing a National Policy Statement in regard to climate change and transition implementation.

    Local governments are then required to include consideration of National Policy Statements when creating planning documents and processing of resource consents.

    No one can opt out, and our Labour led coalition can, by this statement, indicate the priority level they are giving to transition the country.

  14. Chris T 14
    20 February 2019 at 6:33 pm

    What does it actually do?

    It just looks like some document asking the govt to do what Ardern has already said they are doing.

  15. Jenny - How to get there? 15
    20 February 2019 at 8:52 pm

    Begs the question;

    Who is funnier the Thames Coromandel District Council, or Monty Python?

    Mrs Goudie refused to confirm whether she believed climate change was happening, saying she did not have an obligation to tell ratepayers what her opinion was.

    Mrs Goudie said she was not obliged to reveal her stance on climate change because “I think it’s incredibly highly politically charged and driven and I don’t think that makes for a good basis for sound judgment”.

    Goudie’s comments are so close to satire, that is hard to know which is funnier

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