About last night’s debate

42 comments on “About last night’s debate ”

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1. PsyclingLeft.Always 1

   13 October 2023 at 8:38 am

   Luxon : Taylor..Swift ? $60 grocery bill? He is not only condescending and patronising..but fake as fuck.

   I think that was shown in graphic display last night. Seems many also thought so too.

   Lets not have shambolic fakes NAct. Cmon the Left !
   • alwyn 1.1

     13 October 2023 at 8:56 am

     Out of curiosity, what part of his answer to the question about how much he personally spent on groceries did you not understand?

     He said what he spent and explained how limited were the things he was buying. Breakfasts essentially when he was in Wellington on his own. A very precise answer to the question asked.

     Still, if you are one of those people who seem to think Hipkin's hysterical hyperbole was "winning a debate" it is perhaps not surprising you neither understood the question or the answer.

     As far as the public are concerned there have been about 20,000 people who have voted on the Herald Poll and 70% say Luxon won and 30% pick Hipkins.
     • Peter 1.1.1

       13 October 2023 at 9:05 am

       "As far as the public are concerned there have been about 20,000 people who have voted on the Herald Poll and 70% say Luxon won and 30% pick Hipkins."

       I reckon if there was a poll on Mike Hoskings' radio show with 15,000 voting I'd say about 98% would say Luxon won and 2% would say Hipkins won. What do you reckon?
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.2

       13 October 2023 at 9:06 am

       Lol. $60 was what he said. Weasel out of it all you like. Must piss you Natfans off …All that money spent. And Luxon looking..so very shaky. Its all slipping.. away.
       • alwyn 1.1.2.1

         13 October 2023 at 10:16 am

         You still don't understand do you?

         He answered $60 because that was the correct answer to the question he was asked.

         But you don't actually care do you?
         • riffer 1.1.2.1.1

           13 October 2023 at 10:35 am

           Even if the $60 was God's honest truth, the point remains, that to the average voter it came across as though Christopher Luxon has very little in common with them. That is damaging.
           • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.2.1.1.1

             13 October 2023 at 11:55 am

             Yep. He has about as much in common with the common man, as his similarly fake Deputy… Real icecream n DVD's Willis.
         • SapphireGem 1.1.2.1.2

           13 October 2023 at 10:36 am

           LOL he answered to the letter of the question but not the spirit of it. You're being deliberately obtuse and pernickity, and you know it.
           • dv 1.1.2.1.2.1

             13 October 2023 at 12:50 pm

             No No
             $60 pw means there is NO cost of living crisis,
         • Muttonbird 1.1.2.1.3

           13 October 2023 at 12:27 pm

           I didn't see it, but would have thought he could have both been truthful (if that is what he spends and he's not lying to appeal frugal), and used the opportunity to quote the average household spend (thereby appearing in touch with average and low income earners), than say how much it has increase and what they are going to do about it (which appears to revolve around selling a whole lot of NZ to foreign speculators).

           But he didn't do that, because he's shit.
         • bwaghorn 1.1.2.1.4

           13 October 2023 at 1:52 pm

           I guess the wife buys the rest , just like her 2 teslas,
     • observer 1.1.3

       13 October 2023 at 9:36 am

       Not a poll. If you genuinely don't know how to rig online spam, I don't want to spoil your innocence.

       More like the 2005 election when the worm experiment was repeated (after 2002 delivered Dunne).

       The moderator introduced Tariana Turia and the worm went down before she had even started speaking. Yes, really.

       The Herald non-poll would have had the same result if Luxon had eaten a dolphin live on stage.
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.3.1

         13 October 2023 at 9:45 am

         The Herald non-poll would have had the same result if Luxon had eaten a dolphin live on stage.

         lol. Factor in the poor buggers $60 grocery bill…chance of a free dolphin ? No probs.
     • Anne 1.1.4

       13 October 2023 at 9:59 am

       … "there have been about 20,000 people who have voted on the Herald Poll and 70% say Luxon won and 30% pick Hipkins."

       Yeah. the Nat. bush telegraph network was in full swing last night. 🙂
     • Sanctuary 1.1.5

       13 October 2023 at 10:07 am

       The Herald is largely read by Pakeha boomers who spend their whole fucking time whinging that their privilege isn't being affirmed enough.
     • mikesh 1.1.6

       13 October 2023 at 10:13 am

       The question was obviously asked to see if the two leaders were "out of touch" with food prices faced by ordinary people. Luxon's answer suggests that, from his own experience, he was not in a position to be aware of those pressures. Hipkins may have cottoned on to the purpose of the question and given an exaggerated answer. Luxon's followup, ie that he had met many who were struggling with food prices, was probably a platitude.
       • bwaghorn 1.1.6.1

         13 October 2023 at 1:55 pm

         I'm picking chippie was including money the ex spends ,I'm guessing he pays child support, being a decent sort of fulla
     • lprent 1.1.7

       13 October 2023 at 12:11 pm

       As far as the public are concerned there have been about 20,000 people who have voted on the Herald Poll and 70% say Luxon won and 30% pick Hipkins.

       You do realise that those online polls are completely useless. They are incredibly easy to spoof and come with whatever result you want – from the user side.

       But the first problem is even knowing that the online poll is even running at all. It isn’t the ‘public’, it is the audience of those publications who read, watch or listen to the come-ons to participate. Most of those who’d respond will be those who are already living decades in the past.

       In the case of NZ Herald, it is a very very select conservative audience. Their audience seems to have diminished to whoever is willing to pay for reading vaporous rubbish and reprints of article from overseas publications (which I usually have already read in my online subscriptions).

       I haven't read the Herald online or in paper for quite a few years now. Hard to even find links to it on this site anymore. Or anywhere else that I see.

       Same problem with TV as well. Except there it is who is willing to put up with the ridiculous numbers of ads. Which I haven't done since 2012. So I watch these debates from youtube streams later or in the following days. Radio? The ads drive people off that as well. I listen to RNZ because it doesn't have ads on their public stations.

       Basically it is only the out of touch conservatives who'd ever see the come-ons for the online polls.

       Plus of course it is ridiculously easy to vote on online polls thousands of times and hour if you can do some really basic coding tricks. Kiddie-coding for the tech-phobic conservatives.
       • Dennis Frank 1.1.7.1

         13 October 2023 at 12:31 pm

         Makes sense to me. Balkanisation of the msm since the millennium has been a real eye-opener for me – I usually see stuff coming but not that!

         So we got us enclaves, humans in groups all co-generating group minds which then proceed to mistake their consensus for reality. As if postmodernism wasn't bad enough! We need a viable commons for social coherence.

         I want Aotearoa to have a tuned-in & switched on media operating on a commons basis. I trust neither the left nor the right to supply that suitably, but we could yoke the buggers together & lash them with a horse-whip until they co-create it, I suppose, at the risk of seeming somewhat non-pc.
         • lprent 1.1.7.1.1

           13 October 2023 at 1:34 pm

           The funny thing is that I'm inundated with good quality info, and media.

           My usual morning scan and read on the phone currently includes abc.com.au (free), RNZ site (free), NYT (sub), Washington Post (sub), BBC world (free), Economist daily (sub), Stuff (monthly donation), Guardian (occassional donation), Wikipedia random (donation), Politik (sub), google chrome Discover (free) giving a AI curated look at science, tech, politics … This is reading while I am waking up, having coffee and cereal.

           The most expensive by far is the The Economist at >$400/year – also the most useful. The NYT and WP are less than $100/year. Each time I go to unsubscribe from those two fro budget reasons we get an offer we can't refuse.

           The most expensive one locally is politik at ~130 /year in which Richard Harmon goes around the political meetings I don't have time to do. I also donate a bit more (~$25/month) to Stuff for having accessible local news.

           IMHO The most useful after The Economist is Google Discover.

           It gives a useful mix of really good quality links, often on material that I wouldn't look for normally. Especially in the science and tech areas. Like nutty hardware hackers at hackaday. But also this crazed journo from Forbes who is into military hardware. I usually pull a page of reads in from them several times a day.

           The weekend read is bit deeper as I usually have a more time. That is when I read the Economist weekly, scan tech and science online journals, and dig into random topics. Or just play with code. Or read …
           • Dennis Frank 1.1.7.1.1.1

             13 October 2023 at 1:53 pm

             You clearly have a good info scanning system there! More enterprising than mine, definitely. I'm more lackadaisical, with eclectic inclinations in various directions usually with a deep trajectory of learning.

             I have a visceral disinclination to online stuff due to aversion to trivia but still venture there at times due to curiosity about anything interesting that may be happening. The next big trend in globalism, for instance. AI.

             Gordon Campbell links us to the original version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Mornin%27_Comin%27_Down

             The minor chart hit in '69 that shifted me out every time I heard it was by Ray Stevens, altho Johnny Cash went to #1 on the US country chart with his version which I haven't checked out. The RS version is still magic from either iPod @ home or CD compilation, USB in motorhome or SD card in my Outlander but I doubt I'll be in the mood for it this sunday. Sombre!

             Surreal is more likely. I'm still inclined to expect a hung parliament simply because one of my oracles suggested it…
       • alwyn 1.1.7.2

         13 October 2023 at 1:49 pm

         Perhaps you should just do it if it is so easy.

         Wind the Hipkin's count up to 100,000 and how everyone how easy it is. It will no doubt make a few people on the left happy.
         • bwaghorn 1.1.7.2.1

           13 October 2023 at 1:57 pm

           The left tend to shy away from pretty legal behavior!!
2. Tricledrown 2

   13 October 2023 at 8:48 am

   Chippy owned Lying lizard eyed Luxon.Luxon looked like a stunned mullet.Luxon waffled on with no substance.Chippy hammered Luxon in 9 out 10 the only time Luxon looked good was after the debate in summing up.Luxon tried to land some hits on Chippy but ended up looking absolutely gobsmacked.Luxon didn't answer one question straight he was trying to spin his way through most questions and looked terrible he got owned.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   13 October 2023 at 9:11 am

   Seemed a charade to me, Lux doing the used-car salesman schtick & the chipster frothing at the mouth. It's not as if TVNZ tried to make the show credible & relevant, as the bland-out framing was very evident.

   Conspiracy theorists will have noted the careful elimination of co-governance to frame the election as merely about prudent neolib conformism. We can rest assured that the establishment hasn't got a clue about the shit hitting the fan in our world…
4. Dennis Frank 4

   13 October 2023 at 9:24 am

   Another thing: Richard Harman believes

   Getting the usually reluctant beneficiary non-voters to go and vote is now Labour’s only path to power.

   https://www.politik.co.nz/it-has-come-down-to-south-auckland/

   If so, Labour is challenged to do what hasn't been done before & make history. Can't see it happening, but technically possible. The problem is that habitual non-voters have no investment in democracy whatsoever. Neither left nor right have ever given them reason to believe that it's in their interests to participate…
   • Ad 4.1

     13 October 2023 at 11:28 am

     Labour's turnout capacity is excellent thanks.

     Maybe pull the rod out of your own eye.

     It's the Greens that need to wonder if their 12% average is going to translate to 12% of vote turnout.

     Chloe doesn't have the marijuana issue this time, and Wellington Central's public servants will be packing themselves and know it won't be the Greens that will save them.
     • Dennis Frank 4.1.1

       13 October 2023 at 11:36 am

       Labour's turnout capacity

       We'll see the reality tomorrow night. Whether the coverage includes non-voter stats is moot – probably not till the finals get declared. I predict no change to the political group who usually can't be bothered…
5. observer 5

   13 October 2023 at 9:43 am

   Hipkins did well, Luxon was exposed yet again (and far too late).

   But I don't agree that the Uffindell line was a good one. In every debate the basic question for leaders is "What do you want the headline to be?". There is only room for one or two, and far more voters see clips than watch whole debates.

   Luxon being both out of touch and dishonest was the headline Labour wanted. They got it. No need to offer a distraction instead. Nobody is voting for any party because of Uffindell.
   • Dennis Frank 5.1

     13 October 2023 at 9:51 am

     To go full Trump, Lux needs an entire team of bed-leg whackers, not just one. No need for paranoia if he wins. He's a teddy bear.
   • mikesh 5.2

     13 October 2023 at 10:25 am

     I didn't think that the "bed leg" comment was called for either. But to be fair on Hipkins it was response to Luxon's comments criticising the Labour Party's handling of miscreants from Labour camp.
     • aj 5.2.1

       13 October 2023 at 10:43 am

       Luxon brought up the behaviour of Labour MP's and opened himself up completely to the bed leg response. You could see by the expression on Luxon's his face it was a gut punch.

       Let's not just focus on the bed leg incident, don't forget his behaviour to a female flatmate was so bad that her father can to Dunedin to support her moving from that flat she shared with Uffindel. Totally correct response by Hipkins.

       The right treat politics like a blood sport. About time they got the full serve back.
6. Dennis Frank 6

   13 October 2023 at 9:47 am

   Newsroom co-editor view:

   Neither of the two Chrises is a political heavyweight. Blows are landed but there is not much power behind them. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/mark-jennings-another-scrappy-indecisive-contest

   Cunliffe summed up the situation best when he said “the numbers don’t lie, at the moment we have a really high number of undecided voters, and we have a record low Labour plus National vote, it is sitting around 63 or 64 percent, and that’s says neither of these two leaders is truly, truly connecting.

   Yeah it's that three-way split once again, in the public mind. Binary partisans must be traumatised by this. So unfair for human nature to reveal their delusions!
   • mikesh 6.1

     13 October 2023 at 10:50 am

     When the question of Ruth Richardson and the "mother of all budgets" was raised by Hipkins, Luxon replied that it it was ridiculous that he should raise a something that happened thirty years ago. However Hipkins failed to mention the sale of the BNZ to overseas interests about the same time, and for which Richardson, as minister of finance, was probably responsible. He might have pointed out a parallel between that and National's policy of allowing the sale of expensive properties to overseas interests, simply to finance tax cuts. No doubt NAB was laughing all the way to bank, albeit that they themselves were the bank in question, and no doubt overseas investors who buy our properties would be doing the same.
     • Dennis Frank 6.1.1

       13 October 2023 at 11:05 am

       Whilst the BNZ was created by act of parliament, it is likely to have originated in private ownership: https://www.bnzheritage.co.nz/archives/story/founding-of-the-bank-of-new-zealand

       Origin myths are usually extremely powerful collective motivators! Murk, however, usually gets applied to disguise private wealth operations leaching off the body politic. Note the lack of ownership on the origin page!!
7. Ffloyd 7

   13 October 2023 at 9:51 am

   In response to Alwyn.

   The Herald Poll says Luxon won the debate.

   I’m shocked!

   The Herald?

   Really? That’s too funny.

   Alwyn, do you think that Luxor’s quip that “the only thing positive about Chris Hipkin is Covid” was acceptable. You do realise that Covid can be potentially fatal and has been in thousands of cases. To use a persons illness/state of health as a political weapon is a no no. Totally below the belt and your old mum would be ashamed of you.

   And he did not win the debate. He looked like a guppy that had flipped out of its tank.

   Also, to gain any credibility he needs to learn to answer questions. Modelling himself on Key is doing him no favours.
   He will be bad for our country. No moral compass.
   Labour for the win!!!!! I see Red,I see Red, I see Red.

   And ‘up the Abs!!!!! let’s win it for NZ/Aotearoa.
8. PsyclingLeft.Always 8

   13 October 2023 at 9:56 am

   Actually…..Something about someone that uses it…so frequently. Doesnt ring true.

   Once again, Luxon said "actually" incredibly frequently. Like the first and second debate, it was by far his most used word, said 52 times. At one point, he even said it three times in a single sentence: "We're going to make sure that we actually get a deal in India that actually starts trade and actually gets moving of capital and people and innovation."

   And….noticeable . Luxon didnt actually

   Luxon didn't let the NZ First leader's name pass his lips a single time.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2023/500061/the-three-new-attack-lines-chris-hipkins-had-on-repeat-in-the-final-leaders-debate

   Yeah. A touchy subject for the NAct "team" !
   • AB 8.1

     13 October 2023 at 10:43 am

     "actually"

     Sometimes just a harmless filler word. Also commonly used to claim superior knowledge, judgment and the right to be in charge. Often experienced in business settings by workers in discussions with managers. Evidence of a predisposition towards hierarchy, grandiosity and unjustified self-confidence. Can become habitual and unavoidable in spoken language, but should be rigorously policed in anything one writes.
   • Mike the Lefty 8.2

     13 October 2023 at 7:15 pm

     Luxon must have written on his hand:

     Do NOT mention Winston Peters!
9. Muttonbird 9

   13 October 2023 at 11:52 am

   Farrar crying hard about this which is confirmation Hipkins nailed it and Luxon bombed.
10. Mike the Lefty 10

    13 October 2023 at 7:09 pm

    I guess it is crass to suggest that Hipkins might have won the battle, but lost the war, but that is how I think at the moment. I have done my own calculations on how I think it will pan out tomorrow and it doesn't look too flash for Labour or the left bloc.

    My only comfort is that I'm usually wrong.
11. Poldark 11

    13 October 2023 at 7:26 pm

    At 9pm tomorrow night Winnie's phone rings "Kia ora Winnie its Chippy here, our plan has worked you've managed to soak up all the cookers and sunk the right. Do you want Foreign Affairs or Broadcasting?"

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