Open mike 13/10/2023

66 comments on “Open mike 13/10/2023 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   13 October 2023 at 7:01 am

   As they cantered round the final bend into the home straight Hipkins felt fine. Do the mongrel! Lux's advice in the Green Room had been spot on. Vital to maintain a semblance of competition to fool the punters!

   Suddenly his nag stumbled, then collapsed as Hipkins leapt clear. He grabbed the reins again. "Get up horsy, you can do it, not far now." Sadly the beast closed its eyes. "No! No sleep now!" Hipkins desperately lifted its earflap and shrieked into its earhole. "There Is No Alternative! Maggie told us, Ruth told us, Helen obeyed, Jacinda obeyed, I must obey!"

   Lux ambled over. "Actually, old chap, mine doesn't seem keen on finishing either." He adroitly gave it an affectionate rub behind the ears. "Doing the mongrel seemed to work for you, eh? I could only goggle in admiration. And that nice tea-lady they used for moderator didn't even ask us about co-governance! Such a fun run, let's go get a beer. I'll tell my team we can make you ambassador to Israel. They clearly need you to do the mongrel at them!"
2. Ad 2

   13 October 2023 at 7:34 am

   Smash it team.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   13 October 2023 at 8:18 am

   South Ak sleepers awake! https://www.politik.co.nz/it-has-come-down-to-south-auckland/

   Hipkins began yesterday at the Waatea Marae in Mangere, the urban Marae founded by the father and mother of Maori Development Minister Willie Jackson, who is now its chair.

   In a strong speech, he decried racism in New Zealand and in the campaign. “I think that by Maori for Maori solutions work,” he said. “National used to believe that as well. “In this election, I’ve talked about how disappointing it’s been for National, Act and New Zealand First to use race as a wedge to divide the country. “It’s a strategy that seeks to make New Zealanders believe if one part of our society is getting something, then maybe others are missing out due to the special privileges narrative followed by the one law for all slogan.”

   Narrative + slogan usually works on mainstreamers. A push-button formula. Primal fear of stealing by the privileged points to the traditional power structure of the establishment.

   Simulating an aggrieved stance works too, via emotional resonance. Best not to mention your own commitment to propping that system up. Honesty is not the best policy!

   Also important to distract voters lest they focus on the privileged pakeha along with the privileged Maori. Folks have an implacable tendency to get real at times, so keep it up with the smoke & mirrors act!
   • mickysavage 3.1

     13 October 2023 at 8:25 am

     "Primal fear of stealing by the privileged points to the traditional power structure of the establishment."

     You mean like taking $2 billion off the poorest and giving it to wealthy landlords? But that is the reality of what National is proposing. This is not some feigned attempt to fool people this is what will happen if National gets its way.
     • Dennis Frank 3.1.1

       13 October 2023 at 8:56 am

       So it seems, indeed. Sufficient reason to motivate residual voters? Maybe, we'll soon see. Fear ought not to be discounted, no matter how cynically it is used to trigger folks into action…
       • Drowsy M. Kram 3.1.1.1

         13 October 2023 at 10:11 am

         NAct's kick 'em ["bottom feeders"] while their down and bleed 'em til they're dry style of 'governance' seems Right – Willux et al. can't help helping themselves.

         Get Our Country Unearned Income Streams Back on Track

         Two billion from beneficiaries would only be the beginning, but you can't blame them really – just doing what comes naturally.

         Three great forces rule the world: stupidity, fear and greed. – Einstein

         The Side Eye’s Two New Zealands: The Table
         
       • Patricia Bremner 3.1.1.2

         13 October 2023 at 11:52 am

         Your framing is what is cynical Dennis. Taking any money from the disabled and beneficiaries to give it to multi owner landlords is amoral.

         To inform people of what could be lost is not fearmongering, it is showing the rights twisted vision, and disregard of WEAG.

         Giving hope has been Chippy's way. "I am in it for you" and "We have your back" Just how does the left refute the awful misery of austerity without saying what could accrue?

         To hear Luxon say he wants everyone working, when they plan to sack Government workers is really cynical. Unemployment has always been their lever. They want people fighting for a job and too busy to engage in politics.

         The gains people have now could so easily be lost again. Mobilising the poor and marginalised to use their vote to protect their current rights is much harder than convincing the comfortable to vote.

         When you consider the huge sums thrown at the Election by the right, they should be streets ahead, the fact that they are not shows the grass roots of the left still believe in community over money. They are rallying.
         • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.2.1

           13 October 2023 at 12:18 pm

           Not cynical Patricia, realistic. It's how the other third of the nation tends to see it – the flaws of both left & right being evident to them or felt by them. Complicity in the problematic system is Labour's achilles heel…
           • Patricia Bremner 3.1.1.2.1.1

             13 October 2023 at 2:15 pm

             "Sees it" Sees what… "Theft is ok?" You might be correct but for all our sakes, caring NZers will come out in force and the third will get carried along.
             • Dennis Frank …

               13 October 2023 at 3:31 pm

               Did you know that the Moon entered Libra a couple of hours ago? Anyone with a clue will instantly, upon receipt of this news, realise that the election will likely have a balanced outcome. An archetype in nature does that Libra thing every lunation. Silly old duffers in science failed to learn about qualia in passing time – they got stuck on measurement & grew old in terminal boredom in consequence…
               • Barfly …

                 13 October 2023 at 3:41 pm

                 Defending National punching down and talking astrology

                 FFS
                 • Dennis Frank …

                   13 October 2023 at 3:53 pm

                   I wondered who'd be first cab off the rank! Well done. But no, not defending the Nats – I've never done that in my entire six decades of experiencing them!
                 • Drowsy M. Kram …

                   13 October 2023 at 4:23 pm

                   Every silly old duffer should have at least one hobby – I know I do!
     • Tricledrown 3.1.2

       13 October 2023 at 9:03 am

       $1 million plus to each of the wealthiest landlords in the country coming from beneficiaries. Hipkins slammed Luxon on several of the major points so much so that it made Luxon uncomfortable throughout the debate.Hipkins had done his homework .Priceless to see Luxon looking totally gobsmacked.Hipk8ns chimed in with the moderate saying to Luxon just answer the question and in one instance when Luxon was spinning a load of BS. Hipkins jumped in and said that is No.Luxon was rattled constantly. Chippy looked good throughout and sent real stingers in retort to Luxon when he tried to corner chippy!
4. Sanctuary 4

   13 October 2023 at 9:58 am

   On the radio this morning electoral commission CEO Karl Le Quesne blithely noted the final result of the election won't be known until the 3rd of November, almost three weeks after polling day tomorrow. This guy has also overseen the fiasco of sending out voting packs long after voting opened and poor communication around voting places for tomorrow.

   The electoral commission has been well funded under this government. A three week wait for the final result is to my mind completely unacceptable, as has been the delays and communications issues. The perception of the legitimacy result – not to mention the final make of parliament – means the results need to be known by the middle of next week.

   Somehow, we now have a culture where mediocrity in leadership and a lack of accountability from senior managers for poor organisational performance in both the public and private sector is routine, and firing senior managers and CEOs for poor outcomes is regarded as beyond the pale. From the disasterous census, to the board of NZ Rugby to the heads of our CCOs to the electoral commission, we've got an apparently untouchable strata of useless senior leadership who simply are not held accountable.

   We are badly in need of an Admiral Byng moment somewhere "pour encourager les autres".
   • Dennis Frank 4.1

     13 October 2023 at 10:05 am

     Somehow, we now have a culture where mediocrity in leadership and a lack of accountability from senior managers for poor organisational performance in both the public and private sector is routine

     That's due to people voting Nat/Lab for too long. Such behaviour embeds drivel.
   • alwyn 4.2

     13 October 2023 at 10:33 am

     The delay in sending out the voting packs is certainly in the 'wtf!' category. I have been told, by somebody who was involved in running past elections, that the time to get out the final results is essentially caused by all the actions that are required by the Electoral Act 1993 and all the checks they are required to make and the time required to get the special votes back to the correct places to be counted.
   • adam 4.3

     13 October 2023 at 11:33 am

     Let me add – There being not enough voting papers in Glen Eden was a disaster. Heard rumors other early voting places had same problems. The turning away of voters at some polling booths – for a multitude of reasons, but not having a easy vote card is the main one.

     I got my voting pack Monday.

     If the head of the electoral Commission is not fired after this election, then I worry for future elections.
     • gsays 4.3.1

       13 October 2023 at 12:05 pm

       It may be different in the province's but I voted last week without the card.

       Gave my name and just had to confirm my address. Also Hipkins had said on the radio, don't need easy-vote card nor I.D. to vote.
       • adam 4.3.1.1

         13 October 2023 at 9:30 pm

         Good to hear you had no problems.

         Issues up here in the not so far north.
   • Matiri 4.4

     13 October 2023 at 11:40 am

     It takes 3 weeks for all the special votes to be counted – overseas voting, voting outside your electorate, telephone voting for those with disabilities, late enrolments etc.

     This is normal and happens every election.
     • Craig H 4.4.1

       13 October 2023 at 1:49 pm

       And recounts can be requested up to 3 working days after the initial declaration, and the District Court has 3 working days after that to actually oversee the recount.
5. weka 5

   13 October 2023 at 10:33 am

   Headsup on what is likely to be happening on The Standard tomorrow (election day)

   This is what we did in 2020. Probably similar this year (Election day rules post, and Open Mike), but will wait to hear what Lprent plans.

   https://thestandard.org.nz/election-day-rules-2020/

   Please read this years rules once they are up if you intend to comment between midnight tonight and 7pm tomorrow.
6. SPC 6

   13 October 2023 at 10:39 am

   I remember the editorial of 2005 by the Herald.

   Anyone got any quotes from this … ?

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/editorial-election-2023-and-climate-change-the-uncomfortable-truth/XIITF7QXGJDVFNBSQZ3GY4ZRMM/
7. alwyn 7

   13 October 2023 at 10:53 am

   I cannot resist. I am determined to document my pick for the final result. On 3 November the number of seats for each party. is going to be.

   National 48, ACT 12. Total 60

   Labour 34, Greens 14, TPM 4. Total 52

   NZF 8.

   This does not include Port Waikato which will end up going to National. What is Winston going to do? I expect him to settle a deal to offer Confidence and Supply to National ACT and to accept an arrangement that NZF will either vote with the Government or abstain on all legislation provided they make Winston the Minister of Foreign Affairs and give a couple of other Ministerial grade jobs (for the pay and perks) to other NZF MPs with these jobs being outside Cabinet.

   I am sure Winston will be able to persuade the members of his congregation to accept this as offering the country a stable Government with his wise advice keeping things under control blah, blah, blah

   Then he will be able to wine and dine around the world as he drifts of into the distance.

   Labour's 34 MPs will include 30 electorate seats. I think that Prime, Rurawhe, Little, Parker, McAnulty and Andersen will be left in the cold with Jackson being the last cab off the rank.
   • Dennis Frank 7.1

     13 October 2023 at 11:10 am

     Where's the dead-cat bounce in that scenario? Mustn't rule out Shane either. If Lux makes him minister of regional governance for a re-run, provinces could be impressed. Would be a test of competence for him…
     • alwyn 7.1.1

       13 October 2023 at 12:05 pm

       I would expect Shane to be one of the other two NZF MPs to get Ministerial jobs that I mentioned in "couple of other Ministerial grade jobs". He is number 2 on the list after all.

       I was emphasizing what Winston would have to get to satisfy him as, even at his age and after a couple of evictions from Parliament, you can still regard New Zealand First as being Winston First. He really is a cat with 9 lives and what he says is what NZF does. The rest of them really don't matter that much.

       What were you thinking of when you say "regional Governance"? Local Government and Regional Development perhaps?
       • Dennis Frank 7.1.1.1

         13 October 2023 at 12:22 pm

         What were you thinking of when you say "regional Governance"? Local Government and Regional Development perhaps?

         Yeah. It's a view I acquired in the Greens 30 years ago, so I suspect googling bioregionalism would fill it in for you. I reckon Shane can do better than just be a clown, so Lux ought to give him a go. That interview he did recently revealed hidden depth beneath the clown veneer..
   • Ed1 7.2

     13 October 2023 at 11:20 am

     Port Waikato may be more interesting than many expected. Will Bayley take his own advice and now indicate that if he will resign if he gets a list place, and not stand at the by-election? – or have I mixed up two different stories?

     https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/national-mp-in-key-seat-didnt-disclose-big-shareholding
   • James Simpson 7.3

     13 October 2023 at 3:47 pm

     My prediction is Nact failing by 1 so your number with Nat giving 1 to Labour.

     I predict a National NZF minority government with Winston as DP and Foreign Minister.

     ACT will get two ministers outside of government in consideration for abstaining.
8. SPC 8

   13 October 2023 at 11:03 am

   Shall I compare the election as a chance to appeal to our better angels, rather than to take a calculated risk on the dark side (a discredited economic policy continued by a bald eagle supported by two wings that do not want to go in the same direction).

   I have not come to praise those who use their platform to do more harm than good, but to raise serious questions about the lack of substance and intellect behind their advice.

   It is well known that the decision over 30 years to go with low wages, no CGT or estate tax led to an economy based around property asset accumulation and this is what has led to relative economic failure and inequality. There is nothing in the National programme that changes any of this.

   Not do the platitudes about that from one of the support partners indicate any policy, nor proposal to do anything about it. In fact choosing National meant it was a low priority.

   Labour had that policy – directing investors to new builds (mortgage deductability against rent income only available there). And Greens had the 3% rent increase cap for existing property to do the same in a way that helped people with their living costs – so children of their families could afford to stay in school and focus on their education and onto apprenticeships.

   A nation without CGT or estate taxes for 30 years has had a massive shortfall in funding for its infrastructure, a wealth tax is the best short term way to resolve this (it restores the balance).

   In once again advocating against a sustainable society based on a sustainable economy based on a sustainable environment – and an entire life of voting otherwise, .. one giant thumbs down … meh … mate. As for a Maori choosing that course with Seymour and Peters … HRC/WT/UNDRIP/Treaty referendum "favour to Maori" as per the way to 2040 … while Oz does its white veto on One Voice.

   Ian and Karl du Fresne in a tree kissing old mans beard.
   • Dennis Frank 8.1

     13 October 2023 at 11:18 am

     once again advocating against a sustainable society based on a sustainable economy based on a sustainable environment

     Neither neolib leader actually did that though. Vital that they seem part of the solution whilst operating as part of the problem!

     The sucker theory of politics is so antiquated (19th century) that folks have forgotten the nature of the sham. Left = progress, right = status quo. So leftists must produce progress to seem credible. Such a pain in the arse, that. So simulating it sufficiently to manufacture consent via a large number of suckers becomes political strategy.
     • SPC 8.1.1

       13 October 2023 at 11:19 am

       It was a reply to an opine by Ian Taylor in Stuff, I refuse to link to it.
     • Patricia Bremner 8.1.2

       13 October 2023 at 5:20 pm

       Suckers Bottom Feeders Fools… take your pick, but don't act surprised if the outcome is not what some hope.

       They have poured anxious dollars into the result, oiling the waters, hoping resentments have been fanned and false trails followed while they sing songs on the blue bus.

       The red tide dances to the voting stations, this election hangs on about 45000 votes still.
       • Dennis Frank 8.1.2.1

         13 October 2023 at 5:33 pm

         You're not wrong – I often have that jaundiced view myself as a subjective feeling response to what is going on. I do have an overlap with the view from the left that comes to the fore on stuff like personal values, ethos. I just don't see a red tide anywhere but if one shows up I'll happily acknowledge it.
   • mikesh 8.2

     13 October 2023 at 11:52 am

     directing investors to new builds (mortgage deductability against rent income only available there)

     Interest deductibility is probably only justified in the case of productive economic activity, basically because productive activity is something we would wish to encourage. It should not apply to rental income, apart from new builds, which is extractive rather than productive. A nation without CGT or estate taxes for 30 years has had a massive shortfall in funding for its infrastructure, a wealth tax is the best short term way to resolve this (it restores the balance).

     A nation without CGT or estate taxes for 30 years has had a massive shortfall in funding for its infrastructure, a wealth tax is the best short term way to resolve this (it restores the balance).

     We also used to have land taxes, though there was a threshold, Land taxes were repealed, I think, by the fourth Labour government.
     • SPC 8.2.1

       13 October 2023 at 12:17 pm

       The Labour government elected in 1984 moved away from taxes on capital in all forms, and in 1990 Parliament passed the Land Tax Abolition Act (1990), ending New Zealand's history of central government taxing land.

       Douglas back in 1983 said he preferred an assets tax to a CGT as part of his reform plan – he did everything else (top rate 66 to 33% and GST etc) Palmer was PM and Caygill Minister of Finance when land tax was abolished.
9. Dennis Frank 9

   13 October 2023 at 11:47 am

   Soap was a fab sitcom, mid-'70s…

   Formed at the 2020 election, Mitchell, who is a Wellington-based artist and designer, says Soap took influence from the personality politics surrounding Jacinda Ardern and the massive figure she was on the world stage.

   “I wanted to do an absurd version of that and just see what I could get away with and how people would respond.” Initially based in Dunedin, Mitchell has brought Soap to Wellington and is attempting this election to provide what she calls an alternative perspective on the current political landscape. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300987156/who-is-the-new-zealand-soap-party-and-why-cant-they-be-voted-for

   Half art-piece, half political satire, Mitchell says Soap is about putting showbiz into politics. “It's about political pop culture rather than politics itself. I am looking at the party as a brand and the idea of people buying into the brand.” Given Mitchell’s art background, it becomes impossible then to separate the art from the politics with Soap, despite the fact they have around 50 registered members, billboards, and a campaign manager.

   Labour has no labourers as candidates, so authenticity is irrelevant and political brands work regardless of being devoid of substance. Soap washes cleaner though – a bonus.
10. SPC 10

    13 October 2023 at 12:40 pm

    New Zealand and Australia in the world at this point.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-67076216

    And after One Voice fails in Oz and if we have Seymour and Peters in government – dissing UNDRIP etc.

    What then?
    • Muttonbird 10.1

      13 October 2023 at 12:55 pm

      Sorry to be sneery but Australia really is a backward basket case of a country.
      • SPC 10.1.1

        13 October 2023 at 1:03 pm

        Except for its wage rates.

        FPA Industry Awards

        Tick
11. SPC 11

    13 October 2023 at 1:01 pm

    Well Being and Party Policy

    Researchers in the UK and Australia have found renting a home could make you age faster than owning it.

    The research published in the Journal of Epidemiology & Community Health has found a stark difference between the biological aging of owner-occupants and tenants.

    So the decline in home ownership has consequences of a nation. So help into ownership is right.

    In fact, the findings suggest the impact of renting, as opposed to owner occupancy, is nearly double that of being out of work versus having paid employment. It was also 50 percent greater than having been a former smoker as opposed to never having smoked.

    Biological ageing was defined as cultivated damage to the body's tissues and cells, irrespective of actual aging.

    "Living in social housing, however, with its lower cost and greater security of tenure, was no different than outright ownership in terms of its association with biological ageing once additional housing variables were included."

    And social housing rather than rental market dependent is also good.

    In New Zealand, the Green Party has been campaigning on its Pledge to Renters policy which includes limiting how much landlords can increase rent and establishing a Rental Warrant of Fitness.

    Tick

    Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has said his party won't consider rent controls.

    0.A 3% rent increase cap per annum funded by windfall profits tax on banks and supermarkets might have won you the election mate. Rent inflation was 7.8% last year and its expected again. So that cap would have reduced costs by $20 plus a week in the past year and again next year.

    Meanwhile, the National Party said if elected it would reverse Labour's removal of no-cause terminations and the provisions which see fixed-term tenancies roll into periodic tenancies in most cases.

    X

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2023/10/new-study-finds-shocking-link-between-renting-and-aging.html
    • Rolling-on-Gravel 11.1

      13 October 2023 at 5:43 pm

      I certainly have very grey hairs…
12. Patricia Bremner 12

    13 October 2023 at 1:09 pm

    "Labour has no Labourer candidates", well last I looked National is far from a farming lobby!! It courts small and medium busnesses.. Vape Stores!!

    Funny, said to me 65 years ago "You can't be a teacher! Your father is a miner!!"

    Now it is "You can't be real Labour, you don't labour" Cloth cap syndrome.

    Geez Dennis whatever next. Luxon isn't authentic and it shows. He has worked for entities that needed Govt money. So he wants to distribute more of it to landlords.
    • Dennis Frank 12.1

      13 October 2023 at 1:34 pm

      Snake oil, true to the National brand. If you became a teacher despite that prejudice, good for you! My father told me I was weird & stupid often enough to make me believe it, then years later I entered college & the state system measured my IQ @ 135.

      I had taken my father's measure by then anyway. We elder sons of staunch Nat elder sons tend to be a stroppy tribe! Vape stores seem a blight on society so I have to remind myself I believe in free enterprise & ought not to be so intolerant…
      • Drowsy M. Kram 12.1.1

        13 October 2023 at 2:06 pm

        We both know the state system doesn't always get it right Maybe Luxon's IQ was measured privately – apparently he too has "enormous intellectual capability".

        So what if Lux has squandered his talents – everyone should have at least one hobby.
        • Dennis Frank 12.1.1.1

          13 October 2023 at 2:12 pm

          His mother was a psychotherapist and his father was a sales executive for Johnson & Johnson.

          What a combination! I hope his mother's influence prevailed. If he inherited her talent he'd suss out his colleagues easily. Sales psych is more mechanistic.
        • Barfly 12.1.1.2

          13 October 2023 at 3:48 pm

          "everyone should have at least one hobby."

          Punching down seems to be a pastime he enjoys.
        • Patricia Bremner 12.1.1.3

          13 October 2023 at 5:29 pm

          just so. I suggest painting by dots. It would suit him.
13. Dennis Frank 13

    13 October 2023 at 4:18 pm

    Winston played the moonbat:

    At a September gathering in Remuera, Peters told voters: "Carbon dioxide is 0.04 percent of the Earth's atmosphere and of that 0.04 percent, human effect is 3 percent." NIWA principal climate scientist Dr Sam Dean told RNZ humans are responsible for 33 percent of the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere these days.

    Peters also told the crowd New Zealand was a low-emitting country and tried to link tsunamis to climate change. "We are 0.17 percent of the emissions in this world and China and India and the United States and Russia are not listening … The biggest tsunami the world ever had was 1968 in recent times. We've only been keeping stats for the last 100 years, but you've got all these people out there saying these are unique circumstances and they haven't got the scientific evidence to prove that."

    Dean said Aotearoa was actually a dirty polluter – and tsunamis had nothing to do with climate change. "Proportionately on a per person basis, our emissions are very high and we produce more than our fair share of the pollution that is currently in the planet. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/500094/election-2023-bizarre-moments-on-the-campaign-trail

    Everyone, of course, has a right to be in alt-reality at any time. It would be helpful, though, if he put up a sign to inform everyone about which world he is in at any particular point of time. Like that No sign of his.
    • Drowsy M. Kram 13.1

      13 October 2023 at 4:28 pm

      Silly old duffer Winston – negligible understanding of the science – sign of the times
      • Dennis Frank 13.1.1

        13 October 2023 at 4:38 pm

        Indeed. Rather sad. Or – just possibly – rat cunning! All he needs to do is head off confidently into the wild blue yonder & the wingnut/moonbat 5% of the electorate will follow him as if he were the Pied Piper…

        And you know what? 5 + 8 = 13 and that means Fibonacci! A triad thereof…

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_sequence
14. Dennis Frank 14

    13 October 2023 at 4:33 pm

    Curwen Ares Rolinson does an insider spill! https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/10/13/on-nz-firsts-impending-return-to-parliament-both-in-the-mirror-through-the-looking-glass/

    he invoked that well-known fable of the man, the boy, and the donkey.

    in 2011 – it was, indeed, a voice for a severality of sectors of Kiwi society who felt they’d been marginalized via the rather radical socioeconomic ‘experimentation’ which had been foisted upon us for the preceding then-twenty seven years of onrushing Neoliberalism. Hence, you understand, why it was significantly so antipathic toward National.

    I contemplated opening this piece with that famous dictum of Marx – that “Hegel remarks somewhere that all great world-historic facts and personages appear, so to speak, twice. He forgot to add: the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce.”

    He then does a short detour thro Dostoevsky before this:

    General Koechlin-Schwartz reportedly remarked to Patton that the poorer the quality of infantry, the more it needed artillery … and that the American infantry needed all the artillery they could get . NZF’s big-spend bombardment should seem to be covering for just such a gap.

    Ah, the military analyst view of Winston. Could be an opening into the msm for him as soon as Winston takes control of the two sprats.
    • Roy Cartland 14.1

      13 October 2023 at 5:05 pm

      Phew, well done for reading through all that lot, Dennis. I couldn't make it. At least he's now got his eccentric punctuation use under control.
      • Dennis Frank 14.1.1

        13 October 2023 at 5:15 pm

        He's one disillusioned follower, eh Roy! No doubt likely to be an ascerbic commentator on the meandering fortunes of Winston henceforth. I would probably have to google it for relevance, but perapatetic comes to mind.

        A journo ought to ask Winston if he's been on a quest during his political career – since there's an element of mythos in his mix and that has an historical link with charisma. There's no doubt his resurrection has a profound meaning for us and MMP but I'll wait for the results to coalesce before venturing into that.
15. SPC 15

    13 October 2023 at 5:14 pm

    Former prime minister Scott Morrison has called for Australia to deepen its relationship with Taiwan by overhauling its long-standing “One China” policy and allowing the self-governing territory to participate in key international forums such as the Quadrilateral security dialogue.

    Taiwan wants to join TPP and (for the OZ PM to talk to Xi Jinping because he decides everything that happens, including policy on Taiwan). ScoMo wants them to affiliate to QUAD.

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/morrison-calls-for-one-china-policy-overhaul-in-taiwan-speech-20231011-p5ebic.html
    • Dennis Frank 15.1

      13 October 2023 at 5:18 pm

      Damn right too! One China bullshit has gone on too long already. Get real, the Han! Ethnic supremacy ain't a goer in the 21st century! Free Tibet!
      • SPC 15.1.1

        13 October 2023 at 5:30 pm

        Our own Pentecostal (they believe in an end time rapture while the rest of us die in end time judgment), Christopher Luxon, is going to tell the Indians he wants a FTA in 100 days or so, or something.

        MacArthur went to the Yalu and then fled and asked for POTUS to use nukes, Harry (no I am not a librarian like Dewey) Truman said time to retire, no return to the Yalu for you.

        The days of Manifest Destiny, when POTUS James Polk of the year of the first advent 1844, told Mexico that he wanted a sea port on the Pacific Coast … . Then their fleet allowed the Nationalists to flee to Taiwan in 1949.

        The new world advent cult and the altar of heaven on earth in the forbidden city in diplomatic dance, my advice is to keep the born again out of adult discussions.
        • Dennis Frank 15.1.1.1

          13 October 2023 at 5:41 pm

          born again

          A quaint notion. I like the regenerative thing, just not the dross they string around it. People reinvent themselves in the new age – when by affirmation or catharsis, I'm inclined to acknowledge merit thereby. Gaia loves a trier.

          That's more like adopting & wearing a new self. Why an adult would revert to babyhood seems rather irrational. For head-patting?
          • SPC 15.1.1.1.1

            13 October 2023 at 5:52 pm

            It's rooted in the idea of being adopted as God's favourites, thus a tendency to division against and lordship over others.
            • Dennis Frank 15.1.1.1.1.1

              13 October 2023 at 6:07 pm

              Yep, the old testament thing, God willed the Israelites be captured & taken to Babylon then later on a few generations he willed Cyrus to free them when he conquered the metropolis so they went home rejoicing they were once again the chosen people. Then he unchose them again a couple of centuries later, sent the Macedonians in to take control of the promised land.

              Later still he restored Jewish autonomy. Later still he sent the Romans in. Such an inconstant deity! No wonder the followers got so paranoid.
              • SPC …

                13 October 2023 at 6:21 pm

                It's worse – they expect to rule the world for a thousand years after the rest of us are judged, thus their concept of prosperity religion (having or to have imperial coin).

                If I was use the bible to judge them (and or the USA in which they arose) I would refer them to the story of Job.

                Of course we here have no CGT or estate tax (the only one in the OECD of this sort) and rich people pretend to come here because it is a safe refuge (“actually” to profit from the lack of CGT).

                Here judgment would be a wealth tax on Luxon’s property wealth.
                • Dennis Frank …

                  13 October 2023 at 7:05 pm

                  Indeed, yet in principle, generally, judgment ought to be suspended!
16. Mike the Lefty 16

    13 October 2023 at 7:04 pm

    I expect that there will still be billboards from conspiracy theorists like Democracy NZ and Loyal NZ on the sides of the streets when we get up tomorrow morning.

    See if I'm wrong.

    Those nutters think rules don't apply to them.
    • Incognito 16.1

      13 October 2023 at 7:10 pm

      If you do see any, you’ll have to bite your tongue here.
    • Anne 16.2

      13 October 2023 at 7:59 pm

      Take photos of them and send to Electoral Office.

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