Daily Review 08/12/2015

28 comments on “Daily Review 08/12/2015 ”

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1. mickysavage 1

   8 December 2015 at 6:06 pm

   The Graphic is provided by the multi talented Foxy (https://twitter.com/FoxyLustyGrover) who has kindly allowed the Standard to use her graphics.
2. BM 2

   8 December 2015 at 6:55 pm

   You guys must be stoked Collins is back.

   Good to have a “villain” to focus all that impotent rage at.
   • Stuart Munro 2.1

     8 December 2015 at 7:03 pm

     There are no shortage of villains in the Key government, but honesty, competence, and respect for the rule of law are clearly extinct.

     You rightwingers have really lost it – it didn’t use to be this unthinking endorsement of sleaze – there was once principled disagreement – now we get third rate trolls who couldn’t spell principle much less exhibit any.

     NZ weeps for barbarians like you who gibber amongst the wreck of what was once a world-leading society.
     • mike 2.1.1

       8 December 2015 at 7:21 pm

       Couldn’t have put it better myself.
   • b waghorn 2.2

     8 December 2015 at 7:31 pm

     What do you think about her return, is she really fit for office IYO?
   • Gabby 2.3

     8 December 2015 at 7:46 pm

     She certainly has the satanic eyebrows for it.
3. Anne 3

   8 December 2015 at 7:51 pm

   Came across an interesting story today. I cannot corroborate it at this point in time but I have no reason to disbelieve what I was told.

   A “gentleman” was at a function where John Key was also present. Key approached gentleman smiling and with outstretched hand. Gentleman told Key he didn’t shake hands with pathological liars. End of the contact. A short while afterwards, gentleman received a visit from the plod. Plod said they had been advised gentleman had threatened the prime-minister. Gentleman advised plod he had done nothing of the sort… just refused to shake hands with him. Gentleman is apparently now on a police watch list.

   Moral of the story: if you decline to shake hands with John Key because he is a liar, you will become a threat to society and end up on a police watch list.
   • The lost sheep 3.1

     8 December 2015 at 8:08 pm

     Old small town saying…
     ‘Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see.’
     • weka 3.1.1

       8 December 2015 at 8:26 pm

       more important than whether the story is true is whether its credible. There is probably more context (who the gentleman was, what the function was, how it was said), but on the face of it I can see this happening in NZ. That’s an indictment of Key and possibly the NZ police.
       • Anne 3.1.1.1

         8 December 2015 at 8:37 pm

         The person who told me the story had met a friend for coffee yesterday. The ‘gentleman’ in question was with the friend. Something along these lines happened and my suspicion is it was probably Key’s DPS detail who took the extra steps to:

         1) identify the gentleman.
         2) pay him a visit and try to do a spook job on him as a form of punishment?

         Anybody who doesn’t believe the NZ police are capable of behaving in such a way is living in a fools paradise.
       • The lost sheep 3.1.1.2

         8 December 2015 at 8:51 pm

         more important than whether the story is true is whether its credible.

         You being ‘willing to believe it is true’, is more important than whether it is ‘actually true’?

         Maybe that came out wrong Weka?
         • Puddleglum 3.1.1.2.1

           8 December 2015 at 9:22 pm

           Many things are credible but not true. Credibility has nothing to do with ‘willingness to believe’ at a personal level; it has to do with general believability given what else is known.

           For example, it is credible to claim that there are 25 million sheep in New Zealand, but it is not true (as of June 30, 2014 there were 29.8 million).

           The claim is credible just because it is generally known that New Zealand historically has had quite high sheep to person ratios but also quite well known that there has been a decline in the sheep industry since the early 1980s (for reasons we’re all aware of). That makes the claim of 25 million sheep seem ‘about right’ and therefore credible.

           I think weka was using the word ‘credible’ in this sense of generally believable, within the bounds of reasonable possibility given knowledge of current circumstances, etc..
           • weka 3.1.1.2.1.1

             8 December 2015 at 9:34 pm

             Thanks Puddleglum!!

             Lost sheep, I thought it was clear from the whole of my comment what I meant (that many people can see it’s believable that Key might have acted in this way). Puddleglum has now given a thorough explanation, so perhaps you could rethink this being about my credulity rather than than the credibility of the story.
             • The lost sheep …

               8 December 2015 at 9:53 pm

               I’m full of small town wisdom tonight.
               Such as….”Place your own words in the mouth of your enemy, and ask yourself; do they still sound wise?”

               So, you might say, based on the historical example PG uses to illustrate his point, that many people ‘can see it’s believable’ that there are 70 million sheep in New Zealand, as there absolutely were in 1982.

               I agree that might make the same figure today ‘credible/ generally believable’ etc to people who were ignorant of the change in population since then.

               But I disagree that makes it ‘more important’ than the ‘truth’ that there are actually 29.8 million sheep.
               Surely, the ‘truth’ is more ‘credible’ than ‘reasonable possibility’?
               • weka …

                 8 December 2015 at 10:54 pm

                 Puddleglum didn’t use the 70M example, you did. It’s an irrelevant example and a false comparison.

                 You are either being obtuse or falsely argumentative. If you want to talk about what I actually meant, feel free.
                 • The lost sheep …

                   8 December 2015 at 11:31 pm

                   I used exactly the same data reference as PG Weka, The only difference was that I referenced different time frame.

                   And it makes no difference at all to the point in contention, which is…
                   Surely, the ‘truth’ is more ‘credible’ than ‘reasonable possibility’?

                   I can give you another proposition point…
                   1.Many people find it ‘credible / entirely reasonable’ that inequality is entirely the fault of the poor.
                   2.The truth is that there are many complex factors that account for inequality, and the poor have limited control over many of them.

                   What say you Weka? If we are debating inequality, 1, is ‘more important’ than 2?
                   • weka …

                     8 December 2015 at 11:55 pm

                     If you want to make up an example to support your contention, which is nothing to do with what I said, and if you want to selectively quote me, then go argue with yourself.

                     In both my comment and Puddleglum’s we used scenarios that are based on informed ideas (Key’s influence, knowledge about sheep numbers from people who are informed). Your example isn’t.

                     I find it credible that John Key is capable of instructing or allowing his protection detail to contact the police and have them harass someone. The reason I find that credible is because I’ve been paying political attention i.e. I’m informed. I don’t find it credible that John Key eats babies for breakfast. If you can’t understand what I am saying, you should probably go away now, because it’s been explained sufficiently.
                   • weka …

                     9 December 2015 at 12:00 am

                     “What say you Weka? If we are debating inequality, 1, is ‘more important’ than 2?”

                     I’m not debating that. I’m saying that it’s reasonable to listen to the story and believe it might be true (as opposed to disbelieving it because it looks like small town gossip and rumour), and that that crediblity is more relevant than whether the story is true or not. i.e. Key is a liar and a manipulator and abuses his power. We already know this. The story illustrates it. Let it be a parable then, because it still tells a truth (even if it’s not true).

                     I wouldn’t have picked you as a pedantic literalist, so I assume you can understand what I just said.
                   • The lost sheep …

                     9 December 2015 at 12:02 am

                     The great weakness of online debate is that we are not even remotely engaged.
                     We can all walk away whenever we choose.
                     The debate is utterly meaningless.
                     We can never resolve a point in contention.
                     We can never advance to a new point of understanding.

                     In short, It’s meaningless.
                   • The lost sheep …

                     9 December 2015 at 12:15 am

                     Weka,
                     Honestly, I’ve listened very carefully to you. A while back, when you pointed out that I was just as bad as OAB when I got on my high horse, I thought about that carefully, and (largely) changed myself accordingly. Hopefully, i’ve taken a lot of the stupid crap out of my online persona since then. Funnily enough, it does have a carry over into ‘real life’, which i guess contradicts my previous post a bit!

                     But, I thank you for the wake up call.

                     That said, I still have to say that this comment is wrong…
                     Let it be a parable then, because it still tells a truth (even if it’s not true).

                     Either it is a parable/ not true, or, it is the truth.
                     The truth is real, and a parable is not.
                     It does make a huge difference. Reality is real.
   • Draco T Bastard 3.2

     8 December 2015 at 8:26 pm

     I’d suggest that if you’re anywhere near the PM and thus in danger of having him try to shake your hand you should probably wear a recording device and have it recording.
     • AmaKiwi 3.2.1

       8 December 2015 at 10:34 pm

       And if you shake his hand, count your fingers afterwards.
4. Stuart Munro 4

   8 December 2015 at 8:07 pm

   This is what passes for intellect on the right now – where once there were intellectuals like Hayeck, who remained friends with Popper, who wrote Open Society based on New Zealand, now we have dross like this…

   Crude and stupid BM, is that really the best you’ve got?
5. Rodel 5

   8 December 2015 at 8:15 pm

   No.No Stuart.He’s Great debater with real class.
   Yes.On the basis of that comment I think I’ll vote rightwing.(btw BM that’s sarc)

   late PS…. Oh No it’s disappeared.Oh well..
6. Draco T Bastard 6

   8 December 2015 at 8:33 pm

   So, the answer to my question last night is not long:

   “Syria strongly condemns the act of aggression by the US-led coalition that contradicts the UN Charter on goals and principles. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has sent letters to the UN Secretary General and the UN Security Council,” Syria’s SANA news agency quoted the country’s foreign ministry as saying.

   The US-led coalition’s airstrikes in Syria are in fact illegal, as it has never received permission from Syrian President Bashar Assad to enter the country’s airspace. In response to the UK’s decision to join the bombing campaign in Syria, Assad reiterated in an interview with the Sunday Times that the presence of Britain in Syria is unlawful as neither Damascus nor the United Nations have given London the green light to bomb Syrian territory.

   We, of course, won’t see any action against either the US, UK or the rest of them for these immoral and illegal actions.
7. Draco T Bastard 7

   8 December 2015 at 9:40 pm

   And this is an interesting take on the Turkish shoot-down of the Russian aircraft:

   Turkey is not only a highly valued U.S. and NATO ally, but also a key member of the international coalition opposing the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS). That said, adherence to the rule of law is especially important in extremely unstable situations like that in Syria today. It is not the time or place for loose interpretations that can lead to unintended consequences. The U.S. also needs to keep in mind that there are several other volatile aeronautical situations around the globe — overflights in the South China Sea being one — where U.S. interests are served by having legal restraints on the use of force meticulously observed.

   If Turkey was wrong on this one, the U.S. should say so, regardless of whatever other disputes we may have with the Russians. A friend should always tell a friend when they made a mistake. It really is that simple.
8. Draco T Bastard 8

   8 December 2015 at 10:27 pm

   Nation learns of Judith Collins’ reappointment via dead ravens on their lawn, darkening skies

   This was the case yesterday, as a majority of Kiwis reported receiving the news that Judith Collins had been reappointed to her Cabinet position as Corrections Minister, not from the usual outlets such as newspapers or television, but instead from the swirling and ever-darkening skies, dead ravens piling up on their front lawns, and an unseasonal chill wind.
   • Stuart Munro 8.1

     8 December 2015 at 11:08 pm

     There were prodigies and portents enough. We must blame ourselves for misinterpreting them.

     Lightning from a clear sky smote One Tree Hill. It rained stones. Statues bled. Priests at several temples reported sacrificial victims without hearts or livers. One victim escaped after its bowels were opened and was not recaptured. At the National Christmas do, the guest of honour turned completely around. For nine evenings running, ten black vultures circled the Beehive. Labour even nearly evicted the speaker.

     Astrologers refused readings, fearing for their lives. A mad soothsayer wandered the streets proclaiming the imminent end of the world. At the Beehive, the ivy on the outer ramparts withered and gave way to a creeper which appeared black in all but the most intense sunlight.

     But that happens every year. Fools can make an omen of anything in retrospect.

     Apologies to Glen Cook

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