Daily review 19/02/2020

Written By: - Date published: 5:30 pm, February 19th, 2020 - 64 comments
Categories: Daily review - Tags:

Daily review is also your post.

This provides Standardistas the opportunity to review events of the day.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Don’t forget to be kind to each other …

64 comments on “Daily review 19/02/2020 ”

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  1. Rosemary McDonald 1
    19 February 2020 at 5:39 pm

    Leilani Farha.

    Anyone?

    Damns our housing crisis as a human rights issue.

    'Successive governments have created a perfect storm…'

    Simon Wilson's article in the Herald, as well as The Guardian and Newshub.

    Hang me for not linking …but a bit difficult from phone parked up with the other Bus dwellers

      • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1
        19 February 2020 at 6:22 pm

        Thanks Alice Tectonite.

        Struck us as weird that Farha sees Newzild's lack of accessible housing as an issue…as the issue.

        It is simply par for the course.

      • Chris T 1.2.1
        19 February 2020 at 7:02 pm

        I actually don't mind Ng. Meet him a few times, but I think he missed the bit where the renters are normally renting because they can't afford to buy a house, so his fluffy renters buying the house is a bit scewwiff

        • weka 1.2.1.1
          19 February 2020 at 7:24 pm

          Everyone is a renter before they buy their first house. People don't emerge into adulthood fully formed as house buyers.

          The Greens have a rent to buy scheme in the works

          https://www.odt.co.nz/news/politics/greens-push-rent-buy-schemes

        • Muttonbird 1.2.1.2
          19 February 2020 at 7:28 pm

          Only because the houses are unavailable, TMAB.

          If an increased number of amateur investors exited the market because they couldn't be bothered to provide a warm, dry house to rent there would certainly be an increased number of houses available for young families. This of course would see house prices stabilise and become more affordable.

          • Chris T 1.2.1.2.1
            19 February 2020 at 7:33 pm

            Do you you mind clarifying what you mean by tmab?

            To make a….

            • Muttonbird 1.2.1.2.1.1
              19 February 2020 at 7:35 pm

              Sure.

              Don’t worry. You are still anonymous. Just slightly less anonymous than before.

              [I don’t know what is going on here, but it is in no way acceptable to break someone’s pseudonym on TS. Chris T isn’t anonymous, he’s pseudonymous. I suggest you read the Gosman Hypocrisy Ruling in the site Policy. If you have a genuine concern about someone’s pseudonym, then grab the attention of a moderator. – weka]

              • Chris T …
                19 February 2020 at 7:39 pm

                Fantastic

                You are delusional and to be avoided

              • weka …
                20 February 2020 at 4:43 pm

                Mod note for you Muttonbird, you're in premod until I see an acknowledgement you have read the note and the Policy and agree to abide by the site rules.

              • weka …
                21 February 2020 at 7:25 pm

                Ok, well your reply just read like you think you know better than a moderator, so I've put those two comments and your other comments into Spam and left you in premod until this gets sorted out. Basically we're in wasting moderator time now, and I'm sick of chasing round after regulars who should know better. If you don't understand a moderation, ask for clarification, I'm always happy to explain. But there is no good reason why any of us giving our time here should engage in an argument about moderation.

                The points about other people's commenting styles can be made in more direct ways within the site's rules. Or as I said, flag a passing mod.

                • Muttonbird …
                  21 February 2020 at 7:47 pm

                  I thought I did bring attention to posting style last time but as you admitted you don't always read replies to your own demands so commenters don't know where they stand.

                  It’s particularly relevant at this point in time because there is increasing awareness of right wing attack strategy of which deliberate dumbing down is a part. I have a lot of interest and a lot to say about it. Honestly, how can they claim to be interested in better education for people when the communicate in sloppy and false memes?

                  Still not sure how I broke the Gosman rule other than using the word "anonymous" instead of "pseudo-anonymous" but if it gets my posts uncensored then yes, I have re-read the rules and I will adhere to them in the future.

                  Thank you!

                  • weka …
                    21 February 2020 at 8:59 pm

                    I know you're trying here MB, and I really wish I didn't have to be spending time on this, but your first paragraph needs a link so I know what you are referring to. I generally look at the replies list when I am on TS and read what people say to me, so I don't know what you mean. Please clarify. I'll respond to the rest of your comment and the other when we've got this sorted.

                    • weka …
                      21 February 2020 at 9:00 pm

                      Specifically "but as you admitted you don't always read replies to your own demands"

                    • Muttonbird …
                      21 February 2020 at 9:08 pm

                      Please don't patronise me, weka.

                      The reference was around a previous clash where I said had replied to one of your requests and you said, "you lost track of time". This seemed to mean it wasn't important to you.

                    • weka []
                      22 February 2020 at 10:09 am

                      Well you would be wrong about my priorities MB. I’m putting you onto the blacklist in the meantime, just to keep the comments moderation list clear. I will come back to this later, because I don’t want to spend my Sat morning chasing around after this. Reminder (to everyone) that in the end moderation comes down to shortening my time being sucked up. All people have to do is acknowledge the first moderation request and we can move on. Pick a fight with a moderator and this is what happens instead. It’s not personal to you MB, there’s been a run of this lately. If regulars aren’t going to respect moderation maybe I should just go back to banning instead of trying to sort things out.

                  • weka …
                    23 February 2020 at 2:33 pm

                    Muttonbird, you said (comment copied from Trash because I can't move it to the front end),

                    Um. So basically I have been banned but you decline to give me any information on how long or why.

                    You've also not called it a ban but a blacklist. Could you please explain to the commenters what the difference is.

                    Sure. You're not banned. If you were banned I would have said so and told you the length of time. You're still in premod, but I have used the blacklist tool in the back end to manage this because it's less work for me. This means that the system sends all your comments to trash (before they were being held in the Pending queue and I was pushing them to Spam until we sorted the moderation issue out).

                    The reason you are in premod is because I moderated some comments of yours (about anonymity) and you chose to litigate that and now we're in a process of sorting all the things out that have arisen from that. Part of that is because the last time I moderated you, you also argued about it, so to limit the amount of time I have to spend on moderating you in the future it's better to get it all sorted once and for all now.

                    I've been busy and my attention is elsewhere and my priority on TS is finishing a draft post that's been sitting there for a week. None of that is personal to you, you're just the regular who happened to coincide with me running out of patience.

                    So, I will get back to this, I don't know when but I'm unlikely to let it drag on for days and days. I want you and I to come to an understanding on where the boundaries are for moderation so neither of us have to go through this in the future. Or next time I just issue a ban and sort it out that way. My preference is for the former because you've been here a long time and your comments fit with the site except sometimes when you overstep the bounds like this one (your original comment, and how you've handle moderation).

                    In other words, I'm putting time in here so that you don't get banned. There's an opportunity to get on board with that. It's election year and once things heat up with that I won't have this degree of leeway for sorting things out.

                  • weka …
                    23 February 2020 at 2:54 pm

                    Here's the final moderation.

                    1. it's not ok to criticise people for anonymity, nor to try and connect up people's different IDs between here and elsewhere on the internet. On TS anonymity isn't allowed, pseudonimity is. Trying to break someone's pseudonomity will get serious moderator attention.

                    2. You have a history of abusive comments that have nothing to do with politics, and this needs to stop.

                    3. Next time you get moderated by me, if you argue about it, I will just ban in order to limit my time being used up. Asking for clarification is ok by me, taking pot shots at the moderator or moderation is not. How other moderators deal with moderating you is up to them, but I have made my notes and links in the back end if other mods want to refer to that.

                    I will assume you have read and understood these three points unless you ask for clarification, including the understanding that they will form the basis of moderation going forward.

                    The Gosman Hypocrisy Ruling basically says if you call someone using a pseudonym 'anonymous', while using a pseudonym, then you will be banned. As above and stated in the Policy, there are good reasons for understanding the difference between those two things.

                  • weka …
                    23 February 2020 at 5:52 pm

                    You,

                    1a. I didn't criticise anonymity – just let that commenter know we were co-commenters once before elsewhere. The anonymous/pseudo-anonymous differentiation is lost on me, and I suspect others.

                    1b. "Connecting people's different IDs". New rule and the forum rules need to be updated. How are commenters supposed to know this?

                    2. Accepted and I will adjust.

                    3. This is an issue but I will be the one to adjust because I must in order to keep my commenting privilege.

                    Otherwise, thank you for giving up your Sunday to address this and I look forward to the post you are working on.

                    Muttonbird.

                    1a. I told you in the original moderation I didn't know what was going on (still don't), but pointed you to the Policy and pointed out that there were problems with what you were doing.

                    Pseudonymity and anonymity are two different things. Anonymity is when the comment has no handle attached to it so two anonymous comments could be from the same person or two different people and there is no way to know. Think about that with a 200 comment post and what might happen. This is why anonymous comments aren't allowed on site. They're open to abuse and they make conversations confusing. Blogspot blogging platform used to allow anonymous comments (don't know if it still does, and it was an admin chosen setting) and it was really hard to follow complex conversations.

                    Pseudonymity is when people choose a pseudonym, like weka or Muttonbird, and use it consistently. Some people use that pseudonym across the internet (I use weka on twitter and FB for instance). Some people like to use different handles in different places, for lots of reasons, some quite legitimate. The continuity means that conversations are easy to follow, we get to know people and this creates a better political debate culture. It's also means it's harder for people to troll or flame.

                    Breaking Pseudonymity, either by directly doxxing someone (publishing their real life name or details online), or by sharing information so that different IDs can be linked up, is not ok because you have absolutely no way to know the person's reasons. This is a big issue for some people online eg feminists in political spaces who get threatened online and in RL when someone doxxes them. Or someone works in a job which would be at risk if their political views were known (and again, it's not usually possible to see the risk). This is why I take it very seriously.

                    1b. When I first moderated, all you had to do was ask for clarification instead of arguing about it. Not all moderators will explain things, but most will if asked politely. A lot of moderation comes from individual moderators making judgements in the moment based on a range of things to do with the safety of the site and the wellbeing of the community. Listening to what they say as they say things makes things clearer.

                    2. Thank-you, that will be appreciated.

                    3. Yep, that's pretty much what it boils down to.

                    • RedLogix …
                      23 February 2020 at 5:57 pm

                      Finding the middle ground between ignoring bad behaviour and flat out banning isn't easy. It's time and energy consuming, and prone to not having the desired outcome.

                      Still can I sincerely say I fully support what you are trying to do. Best wishes.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      23 February 2020 at 7:38 pm

                      Thanks for the detailed info, weka.

                      My reading of 'anonymous' is that that personal details are unknown. I didn't think my original series of comments violated that but if you say there is a risk to commenters here if their handle from elsewhere is known, I accept that.

                    • Incognito []
                      23 February 2020 at 10:11 pm

                      I’ll add a personal note or observation rather.

                      For reasons weka outlined, we don’t condone people using different user handles (AKA pseudonyms) here. You suspected that this was the case with two commenters and asked us to look into this. I did and found not a hint of this being the case. FYI, I’m particularly allergic to sockpuppetry, bordering on going anaphylactic, and I always keep an eye on this behaviour but it is easily missed too. I think that your judgement and behaviour were clouded by your opinion of and attitude towards those alleged sockpuppets. IMO, it’s perfectly ok to flag suspected sockpuppets but then let Moderators deal with it and accept their decision as they can see and do a lot more behind the scenes than you can.

                • Muttonbird …
                  21 February 2020 at 8:34 pm

                  There's a lot of cross over between the forum I mentioned, by the way. Three or four commenters here are active there on the 574 page NZ Politics Thread

                  I'm not one for linking other forums but I think it has value in the context of this argument. The Standard is referenced there quite a lot. Some here may find it childish (a lot of it is!) but there’s significant commentary about NZ Politics from domestic and largely ex-pat communities.

                  We don't post in a bubble and commenters' history, while considered sacrosanct here for some reason, is fair game as far as I'm concerned.

                  How do you build up knowledge and experience of and about a person without referencing previous behaviour?

                  We do it in real life…

                  • Chris T …
                    23 February 2020 at 3:11 pm

                    Not being funny, but you seem a tad obsessed.

                    [FFS! One Moderator is working hard to douse this fire and you come along with your typical wind-up act to flare it up again. Banned for a week – Incognito]

                    • Incognito …
                      23 February 2020 at 3:30 pm

                      See my Moderator note @ 3:11 PM.

                    • Incognito …
                      23 February 2020 at 4:00 pm

                      Comment received from Chris T after he was banned:

                      I haven't fucking done anything

                      You’re fucking fool for saying that. You’re a spray & walk away wind-up troll and you need to learn to shut the fuck up and especially not fuck with Moderators about moderation. I’m fucked off by your moronic behaviour and add another fucking week to your ban for fucking good measure. So, fuck off for a fortnight!

    • gsays 1.3
      19 February 2020 at 7:06 pm

      Hi Anne, I see one of the other posts is the Green Party saying:

      "“It’s clear that Parliament is incapable of meaningful reforms to itself, as some political parties have a vested interest in the status quo,”

      Even though I saw it was about party funding I immediately thought of the landlord class.

      Squatters rights might shake things up.

      • Anne 1.3.1
        19 February 2020 at 7:36 pm

        Thanks for the heads up gsays. I've not been around much today.

        Note the statement from the Greens says… some political parties have a vested interest in the status quo.

        Lets be crystal clear, they are: National and ACT.

        While it looks like the NZ First Foundation may have dabbled in the behaviour to some extent, it will be nothing compared to the conduct of National and ACT over many years. There is no evidence that Labour and the Greens indulged in such arrangements.

        The LP pledge card fiasco manufactured by the Nats had none of this subterfuge attached to it. It had been approved by Parliamentary Services – a fact the Nat complicit media of the time conveniently glossed over.

    • Molly 1.4
      20 February 2020 at 12:32 pm

      My friend's family were political refugees from Pinochet, but in recent years have returned to visit extended family in Chile.

      Chilean housing policy history – not without problems but interesting to read, particularly in relation to housing activists operating before Pinochet's rule.

      They assessed whether the pobladores had the right kind of family, were good workers, and acted in solidarity with their neighbors. They also investigated whether pobladores were “homeless” (sin casa). In the Chilean case, being homeless did not mean living on the street but rather that one was either living in substandard housing, renting a temporary residence, or staying in the home of extended family members or fictive kin.

      Those who seized land sought the housing benefits they believed they were entitled to as citizens. Housing activists justified the seizures as an attempt to overcome a contradictory shortcoming of citizenship, which had made many Chileans “homeless”. At the same time, the seizures also expanded the boundaries of permissible activism.

  2. AB 2
    19 February 2020 at 6:11 pm

    Adolph Reed on his concern that the left doesn't appreciate what it is up against. The interview as a whole meanders a bit – but this piece is interesting.

  3. Andre 3
    19 February 2020 at 6:19 pm

    Heh. Some intrepid researcher delved through the archives to determine the exact moment Bernie turned into a 78 year old.

    https://slate.com/human-interest/2020/02/when-did-bernie-turn-78-investigation.html

    Spoiler: it was sometime in 1987.

  4. Climaction 4
    19 February 2020 at 7:00 pm

    Everyone’s really giving it their all linking the opposition to the Chinese.

    good to see the left trudge down the same path UK labour did on their way to electoral defeat. Denying it’s racist all the way, because it’s true apparently that the cccp gave donation to National and not Labour and Chinese people buy houses.

    have fun hugging the corpse that is Winston first all the way to the opposition benches again

  5. alwyn 5
    19 February 2020 at 7:15 pm

    I imagine that we can expect some sackings at Middlemore Hospital.

    They have, in effect, called the PM a liar with her claims that sewage was running down the walls at the Hospital. How Dare They!

    'There was "no sewage spilling into the building" and leaks were "immediately repaired", CMDHB's spokeswoman said.'

    This is the second time that they have had to correct the erroneous statements by Government MPs. They have already pointed out the falsity of such statements back in 2019 apparently.

    Edit. Sorry, didn’t add link to story.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12310024

    • Ian 5.1
      19 February 2020 at 8:01 pm

      The PM is repeating a lie. A bit rich to call her a liar. When are you lefties going to start putting the boot into dairy farmers again. Starting to feel ignored down on the farm. Can't wait for the tax cuts next year.

      • millsy 5.1.1
        19 February 2020 at 9:48 pm

        So how much extra money are you getting from poisoning our rivers?

        You know they let people put what they like in the rivers in places like Somalia? I bet their rivers are basically open sewers. That is what a country with no regulations has.

      • Louis 5.1.2
        20 February 2020 at 4:26 pm

        @Ian The PM neither lied nor repeated a lie. Please refer to 5.2

    • Louis 5.2
      20 February 2020 at 4:24 pm

      @alwyn

      The PM didnt lie.

      Read your linked article, despite the headline, Middlemore officials admit to sewage leaks, also take note of all the repair work that was mentioned.

      "Raw sewage has been leaking into the walls of Middlemore Hospital's Scott building, on top of all the other problems with its buildings"

      "Counties-Manukau DHB acting chief executive Dr Gloria Johnson told Morning Report today"

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/353602/sewage-leaking-into-middlemore-building-s-walls

      "The busiest emergency department in the country had to close a procedure room for a week after sewage leaked through the ceiling"

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/115311750/sewage-coming-through-the-ceiling-closed-room-in-middlemore-hospitals-emergency-department

      "Middlemore Hospital knew about extensive leaks, rot and mould at its main building two years before it says it did"

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/356501/middlemore-problems-highlighted-in-2010-report

      "Health Minister David Clark said all the stories about sewage had originated from the DHB"

      "DHB acting chief executive Gloria Johnson declined to be interviewed but confirmed to RNZ on March 28 that there had been sewage leaks and said she believed other buildings at Middlemore could be affected"

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12036681

      • McFlock 5.2.1
        20 February 2020 at 4:36 pm

        There was no sewage leaking down walls, just through the ceiling. Therefore the PM is lying. [headdesk]

      • alwyn 5.2.2
        20 February 2020 at 8:08 pm

        A very brief reply. I never actually said the PM lied. It was the DHB which certainly implied it.

        However. The first story you link to quotes the then acting, now long departed CEO. It was a story from March 2018. Did you notice the date? The CoL Health Minister grabbed the story, embroidered it and then spun it as being part of his spiel that National were Evil. Ms Ardern is continuing to tell the tale, as recently as last week in fact.

        The DHB concerned denied that anything like what he claimed had happened and that the claims were vastly exaggerated. They did this in 2019. Ms Ardern took no notice and simply spun the story again last week. The DHB have repeated the fact that the original story was rubbish. I doubt if the current CoL will take any notice of course. Truth is irrelevant.

        They are quite used to continuing to spread rubbish stories after they have been shown to be false of course. Remember how the outgoing Head of Treasury claimed to have had their system hacked? What actually happened of course was vastly simpler. His staff had put the material on-line in such a way that the general public, using Treasury supplied tools, could see what was in the Budget. Robertson continued the tale of the "hack" long after the way the provision of the data to the Public was demonstrated. He knew that the "hack" had never happened but sticking to the truth wasn't of overriding importance.

        • Louis 5.2.2.1
          21 February 2020 at 12:35 am

          @ alwayn

          The one here spreading rubbish is you and you did imply that "government mps" that no doubt includes the PM are lying in your final paragraph prior to "edit" and you have completely missed the point where the spokesperson admits that there were sewage leaks.

          The PM and her govt were told by the DHB. You trying to spin it to suit doesnt alter those facts.

  6. Muttonbird 6
    19 February 2020 at 7:19 pm

    Caption contest:

    A picture is worth 100050 words.

  7. A 7
    19 February 2020 at 11:18 pm

    Probably nobody will see my comment here as it is late on Wednesday night and I have only just caught this article

    At a daily news briefing on Wednesday, a spokesman for China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs said the credentials would be revoked in retaliation for a headline for an essay that ran in The Journal’s editorial pages earlier this month. The headline read, “China Is the Real Sick Man of Asia.”

    Chinese officials have “demanded that The Wall Street Journal recognize the seriousness of the error, openly and formally apologize, and investigate and punish those responsible, while retaining the need to take further measures against the newspaper,” Geng Shuang, the ministry spokesman, said in a transcript provided by the Chinese government.

    “The Chinese people do not welcome media that publish racist statements and smear China with malicious attacks,” he added.

    Further down the article was a development that feels a bit off (to me anyway…but wth would I know about who/how rules are applied to journalists…)

    It also comes less than one day after American officials in Washington said they would treat five government-controlled Chinese news organizations — Xinhua, CGTN, China Radio, China Daily and People’s Daily — as foreign government functionaries, subject to similar rules as diplomats stationed in the United States.

  8. pat 8
    20 February 2020 at 6:28 am

    “We knew fossil fuel extraction – including fracking – was a major part of global methane emissions, but this impressive study suggests it is a far bigger culprit in human-induced climate change than we had ever thought,” he said.

    “If correct, gas, coal and oil extraction and distribution around the world are responsible for almost half of all human-induced methane emissions. Add to that all the carbon dioxide that is then emitted when the fossil fuels are burned, and you need look no further for the seat of the climate emergency fire.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/feb/19/oil-gas-industry-far-worse-climate-impact-than-thought-fossil-fuels-methane

    • Robert Guyton 8.1
      20 February 2020 at 4:38 pm

      Thanks Pat.

    • RedLogix 8.2
      20 February 2020 at 4:49 pm

      And given that solar PV installations currently depend on co-located natural gas plants to fill in for the evening peak loads … this is the unspoken Archilles Heel of many so called 'renewable' sources. Without mass scale fuel/energy storage both wind and solar are not really as carbon zero as their advocates like to pretend:

      A recent study published in the scientific journal Environmental Research Letters found that natural-gas use has grown so quickly that emissions from gas over the past six years have surpassed the decline in emissions resulting from a reduced use of coal. The study found that fossil fuel emissions grew at a slower rate in 2019 than in previous years but did not account for methane emissions from fossil fuel production and shipping.

      https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/natural-gas-bridge-nearing-end

      • McFlock 8.2.1
        20 February 2020 at 4:57 pm

        Which is part of the teething issues of a new technology, not an endemic problem. Solutions are appearing, from Musks aussie battery to hydro stations using surplus power to pump water back into the upper reservoir.

        • RedLogix 8.2.1.1
          20 February 2020 at 5:13 pm

          All these are good things, another is the global HVDC supergrid that I've spoken to before.

          Incidentally I worked at a mine site that was seriously planning a wind generator combined with energy storage in an unused drift (Cavern Energy Storage) which looked extremely promising. … but only made sense if you already had a decent sized non-leaky hole to start with.

          What does irk me a bit is when PV/Wind advocates chirp on about how cheap their source of energy has become, without factoring in the storage and grid costs that need to be incurred to make it all work reliably.

          • McFlock 8.2.1.1.1
            20 February 2020 at 10:18 pm

            Fair call on advocates for alternative (or any) tech – "support" tends to become "blinkered idolatry".

            Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong, sometimes they're just outright lying (ISTR the wonderfully named "T Boone Pickens" advocating for fracking in the continental US as a means of energy self-sufficiency. He wasa publicising a book, and it was one of the few interviews done by Jon Stewart that made me feel outright dirty. He said he'd never heard of any problems with fracking, ever, and it went unchallenged).

            • RedLogix 8.2.1.1.1.1
              20 February 2020 at 10:45 pm

              Which is part of the teething issues of a new technology, not an endemic problem. Solutions are appearing,

              Without wanting to run a 'gotcha' moment, can I say this is pretty much the same argument I was running for the new generations of MSR fission generators a few weeks back.

              Like all new tech has it's blinkered zealots, but that's the nature of innovation, much of it is going to prove a dead-end but there is really only one way to find out.

              • McFlock …
                20 February 2020 at 11:07 pm

                lol I was trying to avoid doing the gotcha thing in the opposite direction, too.

                The worst case scenario for wind farm hazards being understated is dead birds and a hum. Worst case for MSR hazard understatement is a spontaneous twenty-mile-radius bird sanctuary.

    • pat 8.3
      20 February 2020 at 6:04 pm

      Unsurprisingly the tangental foray into solar and wind generation ignores the fact that methane form non biological sources is higher than previously thought suggesting the impact of biologic methane is less…but never mind it is all moot in any case as there is no will (political or otherwise) to actually do anything about it.

      and you're welcome Robert , for all the good it will do.