Fire at Will coming to your workplace

33 comments on “Fire at Will coming to your workplace ”

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1. Tiger Mountain 1

   24 November 2010 at 10:53 am

   Two positive angles of this ‘fire at will’ law are that it will assist union recruitment and it also applies to national voters–enjoy your medicine tory swine!
2. M 2

   24 November 2010 at 10:57 am

   Wow Eddie, what a fabulous piece and I’m in total agreement with the fire at will being nothing more than a convenient cloak with which bad employers can hide their incompetence in not using due process.

   Worker entitlements is any area that is very much open for abuse and I’m glad I’m up with the play because many times an employer I’ve worked for have tried to play fast and loose with worker entitlements re payment of sick leave etc and I’ve got on the phone to the DOL or printed stuff off from the website to show I’m correct in what I’m saying. I’ve always followed up any such evidence by asking them, “Are you asking me to break the law?” to which the silence is deafening and the worker gets their due. I hate to think of all the abuse that is going on out there at the moment without this proposed assault on workers’ rights.

   Most employers encounter problems because they let certain behaviours go on too long before addressing them and then explode one day whereas had they followed the correct procedure they’d have a leg to stand on – I have no sympathy for them.
   • burt 2.1

     24 November 2010 at 11:03 am

     I’m in total agreement with the fire at will being nothing more than a convenient cloak with which bad employers can hide their incompetence in not using due process.

     Funny, I thought the govt of the day decided what due process was not the unions. Oh well…
     • Bright Red 2.1.1

       24 November 2010 at 11:11 am

       due process is laid out in the Employment Relations Act.

       This new law prevents workers with Fire at Will clauses from accessing it.
3. Jim Nald 3

   24 November 2010 at 11:03 am

   Has key given up closing the gap with australia and is now ambitiously closing the gap with china??
4. millsy 4

   24 November 2010 at 11:04 am

   All workers are now expendable.

   Frankly if an employer feels that they can only hire somone if they can get rid of them if things ‘dont work out’ (whatever that means), then we really need to take a long hard look at ourselves.
   • pollywog 4.1

     24 November 2010 at 11:33 am

     i saw a freeview 7 doco this week on tea workers in sri lanka and kenya where they are only employed for 3 months at a time to avoid employers paying full time worker benefits if employed for longer.

     consequently they get fired after 2-3months then hired again with some being employed in this manner for the last 10 yrs or so.

     is that where this is going or is that already going on here with the likes of ‘the hobbit’ fiasco and the contractors vs employees thing ?
   • prism 4.2

     24 November 2010 at 11:51 am

     millsy – I hear that the current phrase (euphemism) for employers sacking someone is “You’re not the right fit for us”. Frankly I think that the pollies and employers have plugged into the generation-think that finds competitive reality shows to be good entertainment, with everyone voting at each session as to who should be dropped from the group. I always thought that was an ugly model and now it has become reality reality.
     • Vicky32 4.2.1

       24 November 2010 at 6:13 pm

       I wish I knew what ‘not the right fit’ actually means! (It’s the phrase used when I am turned down for jobs, and it’s so vague it drives me round the bend…) If it’s used when firing people, it’s even less use!
       Deb
5. Bill 5

   24 November 2010 at 11:23 am

   “Will you be brave enough to join a union?”

   This is where unions have to get off their arses. Currently, most unions are structured in such a fashion that it’s not really feasible to unionise small workplaces. The ERA doesn’t bloody well help either with it’s emphasis on time consuming mediations etc chewing up time that organisers could otherwise spend organising.

   My point. If no union signs off on a collective agreement containing a ‘fire at will’ clause, then there would be a massive incentive for a new employee to join the union straight off the bat. But like I say. Unions have to find ways to be effective in workplaces they have previously by-passed as being too difficult and too small.

   ‘Fire at Will’ could be the best thing that happened to unionism and by extension workers in general, in this country for a long time.
   • burt 5.1

     24 November 2010 at 11:29 am

     So you are saying the unions should decide which laws they follow and include in their collective agreement. Will end in tears…..
     • Bright Red 5.1.1

       24 November 2010 at 11:43 am

       Um. burt. Fire at Will wasn’t complusory. Unions are free to make no Fire at Will a condition of their collective bargaining if they choose.

       Of course, individual workers rarely bargain over their individual contracts, and the boss can impose Fire at Will on them
       • felix 5.1.1.1

         24 November 2010 at 12:54 pm

         burt, like a good little ACToid, is looking ahead to the final solution.

         Not yet, burt. Soon, but not yet.
         • Shamy 5.1.1.1.1

           24 November 2010 at 1:02 pm

           Hows that whole Union protesting against the employment law changes thing going Felix?

           Not exactly getting much public support or momentum are we!

           Conclusion – real NZ’ers support changes or at worse (best) are indifferent
           • felix 5.1.1.1.1.1

             24 November 2010 at 1:16 pm

             Why are you asking me? I don’t speak for any union – I’m not even currently a member of one.

             I’m yet to speak to a worker who agrees with you though. I guess I just don’t meet any real NZers out here in fantasy land.
     • Bill 5.1.2

       24 November 2010 at 11:51 am

       No burt. I’m suggesting that unions use their bargaining power to block any adoption of ‘Fire at Will’ clauses in the Agreements they negotiate.

       And I’m suggesting they re-organise themselves in ways that would better facilitate the unionising of smaller workplaces so that by April 1 workers coming into those workplaces have a life line.

       I’d suggest they employ organisers whose sole purpose is to unionise green sites and initiate bargaining. I’d suggest they draw up broad ranging, MECA templates now and get them in place where possible, so that new workplaces fall within the parameters of those proposed MECA’s thereby saving much time and energy that would otherwise be sent on drawing up unique Agreements for each and every workplace. Any differing conditions or terms of a newly unionised workplace could then be written is as additional schedules attached to fairly encompassing generic terms and conditions of basic MECAs.

       In business terms you might say that it’s time for the unions to speculate in order to accumulate, no?

       Oh. And I’d suggest that they work more as a single body than as a set of distinct union bodies.
       • The Voice of Reason 5.1.2.1

         24 November 2010 at 2:08 pm

         Er, Bill, all that stuffs going on as we speak.

         The CTU is looking at setting up a low cost organising centre where isolated workers/small workplaces can have access to basic union support. Most of the larger unions employ fulltime recruiters now, but for practical reasons, that’s mostly at worksites with larger work forces. And as for template MECA’s, the EPMU’s Metals MECA covers dozens of small and medium sites, so if there is a workplace wanting that sort of thing, they’ve only got ring them. It’s free to call, too. 0800186466 or epmu.org.nz for the webbed up.
         • Bill 5.1.2.1.1

           24 November 2010 at 5:00 pm

           With due respect VoR, the metals and plastics MECA only covers that or those industries only and even then, if my memory serves me correct, there can be problems getting new ‘third party’ employers covered by it…even where a majority of employees wish that to be the case.

           I envisage more of a Retail and Service MECA (say) with open third party involvement (either another union or workplace) that could cover a geographical area (say Hamilton). A couple of years ago I and some others looked at such an initiative but were stymied by an Employment Court decision at the time. I can’t remember the details and have no idea if it was challenged or if if any challenge was successful.

           As for union support for workers in small workplaces that have no CEA, the practical support is necessarily limited with regards application of Fire at Will…or any other issue for that matter.
     • Jenny 5.1.3

       25 November 2010 at 9:44 am

       Strike at will.

       Does that sound fair to you burt?
6. Tiger Mountain 6

   24 November 2010 at 11:31 am

   Indulge me Standard readers, a brief real world scenario, I have a niece, 3 years of uni, event management grad that had to give up a long standing paid retail gig to do months of unpaid ‘internship’ (aka slaving) and not only has no job but when she does get one in that precarious industry will now be subject to ‘fire at will’. Some kiwis may have eaten enough shit sandwiches to like the taste, but thankfully a lot of us have not.
   • pollywog 6.1

     24 November 2010 at 11:44 am

     …sounds like shes in for a long hard slog as a freelancer building up a flash as work history before becoming a ‘made man’ as an employee TM
     • Tiger Mountain 6.1.1

       24 November 2010 at 1:00 pm

       You’re not wrong P, my son is working for a pretty cool food catering co. in film industry over hols prior to his final uni year and has made some good contacts, not that he necessarily wants to go there. The thing with this new law is that it puts more obstacles in front of our young people just starting out.
       • The Voice of Reason 6.1.1.1

         24 November 2010 at 2:10 pm

         Last friday night in the pub, I talked with a guy who’d changed islands, uprooted his family, moved to a city where he knew noone, all at the request of his new employer. Fired on the 90th day. Not happy, not happy at all.
         • Tiger Mountain 6.1.1.1.1

           24 November 2010 at 2:24 pm

           Voice; will Burt and others recover from our daring theory meets reality exposé’s?
           • bbfloyd 6.1.1.1.1.1

             24 November 2010 at 2:53 pm

             TM.. they have to be able to admit to having a problem before the rehab can start.
           • The Voice of Reason 6.1.1.1.1.2

             24 November 2010 at 2:53 pm

             … does not compute, does not compute … self destruct mode enabled ….pfffft
             • Rob …

               24 November 2010 at 4:27 pm

               Tiger Mountain, I am not suprised your neice is having difficulty getting a role in the event management industry. Not many corporates or businesses are running major events / product releases etc. We are mainly crippled by this recession.
               • Tiger Mountain …

                 24 November 2010 at 5:13 pm

                 Not a point I really sought to make Rob, but you have nonetheless touched on the matter of “where are the jobs…”. My substantive view is about the ugly employment environment for those that do score an opportunity. Heard a lovely job name from the USA recently-‘perma-temp’. Kinda like the the All Black footballers rotational management by stress policy.
       • pollywog 6.1.1.2

         24 November 2010 at 2:31 pm

         yeah it’s a tough one eh ?…my eldest is giving up a good job with prospects in retail to make her place in the world studying down in Dunnerz for who knows how long starting next year

         she says she doesnt want to miss out on the uni thing while shes young and can always go back to retail.

         but shes damn good at selling, customer relations and has been earmarked for future management.
7. travellerev 7

   24 November 2010 at 2:51 pm

   Hi Eddy,

   It’s write not right in this case.

   Other than that I agree with your post completely. Together with the proposed changes in welfare such as limited time dole, and forced to work for the dole and you will have a tired, uncooperative hostile workforce.
   But perhaps that is needed to wake the sheeple up to the fact that our rich overlords will never ever give us anything we are not prepared to revolt over.

   With two million people loosing their benefits on the 1th of December in the US and some 10 million in the process of losing their homes in the middle of winter we can see first hand what happens if you don’t fight back.
   • Tiger Mountain 7.1

     24 November 2010 at 3:09 pm

     Hey Trav,
     have you seen the movie “The Road” with actor Viggo Mortensen etc? it is not stretching it too much for that scenario to be the USA in a few years.
     • Soony Blount 7.1.1

       24 November 2010 at 8:47 pm

       You could even try the book Tiger.

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1. The Standard: posted on 23 November 2010 at 9:36 pm

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