GCSB Bill scaring off investors

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1. Descendant Of Sssmith 1

   4 July 2013 at 7:34 am

   It’s quite simple to resolve isn’t.

   No data is to be collected on any NZ citizen except upon the issue of a legitimate warrant from a judge.

   The GCSB cannot collect any data on NZ citizens within NZ.

   The police must use their own resources to collect data on NZ citizens.

   No foreign agency, whether private or government is permitted to collect data on NZ citizens without a New Zealand issued warrant.

   No data collected outside a warrant can be permissible in a court of law.
   • Watching 1.1

     4 July 2013 at 10:14 am

     DOS, I agree with your resolution but on your point 4:

     “No foreign agency, whether private or government is permitted to collect data on NZ citizens without a New Zealand issued warrant”

     If a NZ citizen choose to travel overseas, enter personal data into global apps like Facebook, joins & communicates with overseas organisations like anything from a medical to a lobby group, use web based emails account like hotmail, access NZ web sites that are hosted overseas (which I think The Standard could be), uses communications cell or skype networks etc I don’t thinks a foreign agency needs to ask or even can be stopped collecting data especially if the data is held in their country & operating under their laws.

     Also there nothing to stop a foreign agency accessing low level free information like the White Pages data for cross referencing.

     As a matter of interest where is the white pages servers?
     • Descendant Of Sssmith 1.1.1

       4 July 2013 at 10:23 am

       Can’t see any reason why under international agreements the collection of individual information on global systems can’t take into account individual countries privacy requirements.

       It’s only programming.
       • Watching 1.1.1.1

         4 July 2013 at 10:42 am

         If China or US or X says no – what next.

         Its not a programming issue (which as you state is a straight forward solution), but rather accepting those countries are not going to change their laws regarding foreigners.

         The point I was trying to make that this data is not NZ base data but data that is held in the US that allows them (under their laws to track foreigners).

         To them a NZ’er is just another foreigner. Just ask anyone on this blog who has just transited through a US airport
         • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1.1

           4 July 2013 at 10:48 am

           NZ is a “second party” intelligence partner of the US. That gives us, in theory, significant benefits as an ally of the USA.
           • Watching 1.1.1.1.1.1

             4 July 2013 at 11:17 am

             CV what does “NZ is a “second party” intelligence partner of the US” mean?
             • Colonial Viper …

               4 July 2013 at 12:05 pm

               Equal in status alongside Canada, Australia, UK. Ahead of all other NATO countries. Germany and France are “third party” partners, for instance. There is only one country ranked “first party” intelligence cooperation status: the US itself.
               • Rogue Trooper …

                 4 July 2013 at 1:24 pm

                 and that is why there is the defiance and urgency of the Nats to further cement intelligence alliance with the rest of the members; particularly in relationship to the Geographical location of New Zealand.
       • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.2

         4 July 2013 at 10:46 am

         If you look at what has happened in Europe over the last 36 hours with countries like Spain, France, Italy, Portugal initially expressing outrage that they are being spied on by the USA and UK (and not just their governments being spied on, but also their ordinary citizens and businesses).

         That outrage going immediately to those same countries banning Morales government jet from refuelling or flying over their airspace, on US suspicions that Snowden was hidden onboard. This forced the Bolivian air force jet carrying the leader of a South American country to turn around and make an unplanned landing in Austria, as it was running out of fuel.

         No more crony, subservient, satellite state behaviour could be found. Its like the old days when Moscow would say jump and Budapest would say how high, sir.

         Take away message: international laws, conventions and treaties will be abrogated at will.
         • Populuxe1 1.1.1.2.1

           4 July 2013 at 2:20 pm

           Again, this would be the France whose Secret Service were despatched to little ol’ New Zealand (not sure if we were a second party intelligence pardner of the US in those days) to blow up the Rainbow Warrior in one of our ports? The Italian SISMI which has been implicated in everything from the yellowcake forgery to the Imam Rapito affair? Everyone is at it all of the time. Everyone is dirty.
           • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.2.1.1

             4 July 2013 at 3:11 pm

             You’re an idiot.

             EDIT oh I guess I better add something else to this

             it’s a shame you don’t see the true issue here (as opposed to whining about “they’re all the same”), and have not even addressed a single aspect of the events of which I wrote about.

             Essentially these governments and their politicians no longer serve their citizens; they in fact have next to no sovereign independence left in their decision making.

             Now you may enjoy being a little whiny but ultimately subservient apparatchik, but I’d prefer to see movement towards a nice healthy democracy instead.
             • Populuxe1 …

               4 July 2013 at 5:03 pm

               Yes but you seem to be under the impression that it was ever different. The state has always conducted surveilance on its citizens. Governments and politicians have never served their citizens – they have always managed them. When they don’t manage their citizens, you end up with Somalia. Gosh you old fogeys are hung up on your utopian ideals. And yet in the same breath you’d probably self-righteously screech that the need for freedom should not outweigh the need for fairness.
               What exactly do you want? Are you some kind of krypto-libertarian?
               • Colonial Viper …

                 4 July 2013 at 5:04 pm

                 yeah. whatever. I never noticed a panopticon surveillance state before but now I have. Little toady apparatchik.
                 • Populuxe1 …

                   4 July 2013 at 5:48 pm

                   Yup. You’ve been living on the grid since birth – birth certificate and hospital records. School records. Your first bank account. Any power or phone account in your name. Any lease you sign. Tax returns. Credit rating. Police record. The whole shebang. Why are you suddenly getting worked up about it now?
               • Colonial Viper …

                 4 July 2013 at 5:16 pm

                 Also, lets get away from this idea that “spying on citizens” is what is happening. This is not a couple of guys sitting outside your house in a car checking when you arrive and leave.

                 What is actually happening is a surveillance state apparatus where without exception all your electronic and voice communications are intercepted, permanently stored on global databases for access at any future time, for any use deemed fit, anywhere in the world.
                 • Populuxe1 …

                   4 July 2013 at 5:44 pm

                   Yes. It’s called the internet.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 4 July 2013 at 5:18 pm

                 Further you remember when the Google cars came around and they were found to have matched physical addresses and geographical location information against local wifi/IP addresses and other virtual data?

                 That reference table is crucial in being able to accurately relate the virtual signals captured, to whereabouts in real physical space.
                 • Populuxe1 …

                   4 July 2013 at 5:45 pm

                   Resulting in an incredibly useful resource that most of us probably use several times a week.
2. One Anonymous Knucklehead 2

   4 July 2013 at 7:50 am

   I think there’s a typo in that last sentence. “Responsible”?

   How incompetent is this government? How much more international ridicule and contempt will they bring upon New Zealand?
   • Wyndham 2.1

     4 July 2013 at 8:05 am

     Somebody needs to ask Key what his government’s response to this threat is. He needs to have an answer, it is completely responsible to proceed without one.

     Irresponsible ?
   • r0b 2.2

     4 July 2013 at 9:01 am

     Ooops – fixed – ta
3. Alanz 3

   4 July 2013 at 8:47 am

   “GCSB Bill scaring off investors”

   Yes, this has been raised by my IT mates. The GCSB Bill is generating real issues of concern over the security of commercially sensitive information, valuable business data and intellectual property.
   • Descendant Of Sssmith 3.1

     4 July 2013 at 9:12 am

     It seems a little odd that that bill is causing concern considering the Snowden revelations – which really just confirmed what many people thought anyway.

     I’d be more sympathetic to private enterprise concerns if they didn’t monitor what I do and sell my name and phone number and address and online shopping habits, etched to others.

     If they track, use and sell my private information then there’s no reason why others shouldn’t track, sell and use theirs.

     Their concern seems to only be in their own self interest.
     • Sable 3.1.1

       4 July 2013 at 9:29 am

       Yes how odd people don’t want officials they elected and then pay for every day they go to work spying on them. What are we thinking, after all this is a tin pot democracy at best and we are lucky we are not all placed in shackles.

       And yes, businesses do sell private information but they are subject to oversight by government and bound by legal statute. So who is has oversight for Keys and co should they collect our data? Oh, that’s right, NO-ONE!!!!!!
       • Descendant Of Sssmith 3.1.1.1

         4 July 2013 at 9:37 am

         Government collection is open to legal restrictions and oversight as well.

         The private sector is less open to oversight than you profess.

         Try and find out who your information has been sold to by say the yellow pages.

         Try and find out how those pricks ringing my wife during the day and at night to sell her all sorts of crap and schemes got her unlisted phone number or cell phone number.

         Try and find out how your online shopping Information is actually used and shared with.

         My point wasn’t that one is better or different to the other it was no one should collect information on me without my permission or a warrant.

         Private or government.
         • Watching 3.1.1.1.1

           4 July 2013 at 10:31 am

           DOS. to answer your question “got her unlisted phone number or cell phone number.”

           This is easy your wife has entered her cell phone into a site somewhere.

           Also (although never have seen it used in NZ) but if you have say 500-1000 cell numbers (like a sport club official – that football club database has a lot of unlisted numbers), and those who have 1000 plus Facebook friends can sell that list.
         • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.1.2

           4 July 2013 at 2:40 pm

           Try and find out how those pricks ringing my wife during the day and at night to sell her all sorts of crap and schemes got her unlisted phone number or cell phone number.

           Sequential dialers have been in use since the 1980s at least.
     • Rogue Trooper 3.1.2

       4 July 2013 at 1:29 pm

       from listening to RNZ;
       “New Zealand will be operating in a state of suspicion, equal to, or worse, than what is seen in the United States.”- Vikram Kumar.
       “meta-data can determine your hobbies, your friends, your politics, etc”.- Tech Liberty New Zealand.
4. Sable 4

   4 July 2013 at 9:16 am

   The king of clowns stumbles yet again. I had wondered if this might not be an obvious outcome of this kind of draconian policy so this comes as no real surprise. Who is going to extensively use phones and the internet to communicate with friends if they think some creepy little government snoop is listening in on their conversation. What about a woman for example, who is talking to a friend about her pregnancy problems, does she want some turd eavesdropping on a very personal conversation?

   I think the only winners in this scenario are the cafes, although slimy Keys and co will probably start bugging those too.
   • Rogue Trooper 4.1

     4 July 2013 at 1:31 pm

     he he, Cafe’s Rock (and wifi) 🙂
5. Sable 5

   4 July 2013 at 9:23 am

   Oh and on the subject of telecommunications what does this mean for cloud computing. Will anyone want to use a NZ supplier or any supplier with a presence in New Zealand after this debacle? The reality is Keys is BAD FOR BUSINESS. No firm is going to consider placing even day to day correspondence on the cloud if they think it is subject to observation by an unwarranted third party who is not bound by contractual obligation. I know for a fact that cloud firms avoid countries such as the US and Singapore for this reason.

   We are going to become a technological back water under this fool but then maybe that’s what he wants. An ignorant populace of uninformed drones that he can flog off to foreign firms looking for cheap labour.
   • Draco T Bastard 5.1

     4 July 2013 at 2:44 pm

     We are going to become a technological back water under this fool but then maybe that’s what he wants. An ignorant populace of uninformed drones that he can flog off to foreign firms looking for cheap labour.

     There’s got to be a reason for why National keep fucking up our education system and saying that we’re only good enough to farm.
6. Maggie May 6

   4 July 2013 at 10:24 am

   John Key has probably lined up the same spy agencies who do the spying in USA to come down here and take over the country. No worries mate

   one world order.
   • Colonial Viper 6.1

     4 July 2013 at 10:36 am

     NZ has been “2nd Party” intelligence partners with the US for a very long time. This relationship is far closer than say that between Germany and the US or France and the US. It gives NZ many privileges, but also entails many costs and expectations.
7. karol 7

   4 July 2013 at 11:34 am

   Does anyone know if there’s a full record of the submissions to the GCSB hearings available online eg a video of the hearings yesterday?

   there’s a couple of things I’m interested to look at: e.g. there was one business submission where the guy talked about a need to separate oversight of foreign invasions of, or spying on local businesses, from the surveillance spying on foreign threats to the country.

   ie to separate commercial protections from state/national security.
   • One Anonymous Knucklehead 7.1

     4 July 2013 at 12:57 pm

     Here you go Karol. Scoop to the rescue 🙂

     PS: Koziarski Kumar and Beagle 😀
     • karol 7.1.1

       4 July 2013 at 1:02 pm

       Excellent. Thank-you. I was looking for something like that on Scoop earlier and couldn’t find it.
     • Rogue Trooper 7.1.2

       4 July 2013 at 1:38 pm

       “empty vessel in the prime ministerial suit”. Excellent!
8. Populuxe1 8

   4 July 2013 at 1:08 pm

   How richly ironic given that Google has been filtering and using our big data for years.
   • weka 8.1

     4 July 2013 at 1:11 pm

     You really don’t understand what is at stake here, do you.
     • Populuxe1 8.1.1

       4 July 2013 at 1:18 pm

       Oh I do, I just enjoy the irony. Here is one of the world’s largest internet companies which has been through various means from tracking cookies and Boolean search algorythms to heaven knows what else to first filter through our web searches, then emails, then Youtube searches, and now all the documents saved in the cloud, to track all our interests and eccentricities, which they have shamelssly sold to advertisers everywhere, and now they are tuttutting the Nats for basically wanting to do the same thing. I am against anybody doing that, but if you can’t see the irony you must be exceptionally dull.
       • weka 8.1.1.1

         4 July 2013 at 1:24 pm

         You probably agreed with Key then, that what he is proposing to do is the same as Megaupload outsourcing. I’m not the one who is dull witted, mate.

         “and now they are tuttutting the Nats for basically wanting to do the same thing”

         But it’s not the same thing. And the fact that you won’t tell the difference is not dull, just disingenuous. Or maybe you are really thick and can’t tell the difference between a private organisation that is still subject to the laws of the land, and a government that is basically saying it is above the law.
         • Populuxe1 8.1.1.1.1

           4 July 2013 at 1:43 pm

           No I didn’t, but I think you might be the thick one. Since when has ANY billion dollar global corporation seen itself confined by the laws of the land (or indeed, which land)? That is so cute. We have know way at all of knowing what Google does with all that metadata, so don’t be so naive. That’s why something like this is very scary http://www.google.com/enterprise/apps/government/
           Both are or want to be filtering metadata to determine interests and associations without our knowledge or consent – that is exactly the same, hence the irony, but by all means continue to flog a dead horse.
           Also, why has Kim Dotcom suddenly become your best buddy? He’s probably as scummy as Key. My enemy’s enemy is only my friend up until they decide to invade my borders while I’m destracted by my other enemy.
           • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.1.1.1

             4 July 2013 at 2:51 pm

             I’m with Pop1 on this. In fact, I think I prefer the government having access to all the data that Google gets than Google. At least the government can be held to account whereas multi-national corporations? Well, how much tax did Google pay in NZ last year? The reality is that we can’t, and don’t, hold multi-national corporations to account.
             • felix …

               4 July 2013 at 2:57 pm

               Yeah I agree in principle.

               However the new piece of the puzzle is the confirmation that our governments are actively working with google and facebook.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 4 July 2013 at 3:06 pm

                 The imbalance between the power of citizens and the power of governments is getting way out of whack.

                 A system where the government knows everything you are doing as a citizen and when you are doing it, but where you know fuck all as a citizen of what your government is doing as an institution, is extraordarily dangerous to democracy.

                 n fact, I think I prefer the government having access to all the data that Google gets than Google.

                 This is naive in the extreme. Who the fuck cares if google has that information because they are actually relatively powerless; in the US what happened was that the IRS got hold of that information and then started using their governmental powers to target political activists. That’s when you worry. The intersection of corporate information gathering and governmental coercion.

                 here’s a real life example for everyone here who doesnt want to think ahead. Lets have the government create a law enabling WINZ to access all the txt messages and email accounts of beneficiaries. This information, it is said, is necessary to correctly determine if someone is in a relationship, if they are living where they say they are living, if they are really estranged from their parents etc.

                 What say you guys? Good system, right?
                 • Pascal's bookie …

                   4 July 2013 at 3:10 pm

                   That was a beat up about the IRS actually. Stems from their electoral financing law. Groups registered under a certain tax code shouldn’t be campaigning. It was suspected that many were in fact campaigning, so the IRS targeted groups registered under that code which had explicitly political names, like Tea party, or Occupy. Turns out some of the groups were rorting the system, and used the fact they were investigate to claim to was a witchhunt.

                   far as I’m concerned, fuckers should have paid their taxes.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     4 July 2013 at 3:16 pm

                     LOL

                     it’s time you caught up on what this is actually about

                     http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/24/irs-progressive-groups_n_3492679.html

                     I’d be interested to hear your conclusions.
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     4 July 2013 at 4:07 pm

                     That’s seems pretty close to what I said doesn’t it?

                     What do think it says?
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     4 July 2013 at 5:00 pm

                     PB – think it says that activist and political groups who challenge the status quo hierarchy, regardless of which side of the political spectrum they are on – have been targeted.

                     Historically, this is a very bad sign.
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     4 July 2013 at 6:35 pm

                     CV, they were targeted by the IRS looking for people who were not paying their taxes. Should the IRS not investigate tax evasion? Or should it just not investigate politically named groups for tax evasion?
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   4 July 2013 at 4:22 pm

                   The imbalance between the power of citizens and the power of governments is getting way out of whack.

                   Correct, which is why we need a more open government.

                   Who the fuck cares if google has that information because they are actually relatively powerless;

                   And National govern for the rich and powerful, i.e, Google. To suggest that Google is powerless is the naive position.

                   Lets have the government create a law enabling WINZ to access all the txt messages and email accounts of beneficiaries.

                   The correct position there is to have welfare that isn’t determined by peoples relationships. We could call it a Universal Income.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     4 July 2013 at 4:44 pm

                     A totalitarian surveillance state is the real fear Draco, not National shovelling more money towards its cronies. In a toss up between the two, we’d be lucky if we got to choose the latter.
                 • Populuxe1 …

                   4 July 2013 at 5:09 pm

                   “Who the fuck cares if google has that information because they are actually relatively powerless…”

                   Riiiiight – and Hollywood was relatively powerless when our employment and copyright laws all got chnaged.
             • Watching …

               4 July 2013 at 3:12 pm

               Draco T Bastard – one of your best responses.

               One of the differences is that corporations are using this data in our daily life – every day. They know too much personal data at the micro level – for instance http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/

               Whereas I expect spooks only become interest in individual data if a flag is found
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 4 July 2013 at 4:30 pm

                 Whereas I expect spooks only become interest in individual data if a flag is found

                 That’s the way I figure it as well and laws and procedures can be put in place to ensure that’s the way it stays.
                 • McFlock …

                   4 July 2013 at 4:40 pm

                   Whereas I expect spooks only become interest in individual data if a flag is found

                   and doctors are only interested in the xrays of their own patients…
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     4 July 2013 at 5:22 pm

                     I didn’t say that the procedures were perfect and considering how many cases actually go through the DHBs what we’re looking at there is seems fairly minimal. As it says in the article:

                     But most confidentiality breaches were low-level and resulted in verbal and written warnings, she said.

                     “These are the ones who find out that a friend’s in hospital so they look up the record to see what ward they’re in, or they’ve heard their friend has had a baby, so they look up the health record to find out the sex.

                     “We put this in the ‘How could you be so dumb’ category.

                     “We basically give them a lecture, make them take the privacy training and leave it at that.”
                 • Populuxe1 …

                   4 July 2013 at 5:11 pm

                   And (at least I hope) governments are going to contain that information and confine it to specific contexts. God knows what Google might do with it.
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     4 July 2013 at 5:35 pm

                     The reason they are storing the data is because they want to be able to search it as contexts arise. The system presupposes changing contexts. Otherwise they’d only collect context specific material.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 4 July 2013 at 4:47 pm

                 Whereas I expect spooks only become interest in individual data if a flag is found

                 All you guys are just frustrating the hell out of me.

                 This is not the experience with Police database systems its not the case with the current GCSB system, both of which have been demonstrated in court to have been accessed or used inappropriately, why the honest-to-god-frak would you believe that “the spooks” are going to be a more saintly grade of human being?

                 Unbelievable.
                 • Pascal's bookie …

                   4 July 2013 at 5:22 pm

                   IKR.

                   It’s better if the state collects all the data because they’ll only ever look for bad guys and rules can be put in place and the definition of bad guys will stay the same forever and ever amen.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     4 July 2013 at 5:31 pm

                     yeah, that’s worked really well both in NZ and overseas.
                 • weka …

                   4 July 2013 at 5:39 pm

                   “Unbelievable”

                   +1

                   eg we already know that activists are targeted, why is that not going to become more so as govt surveillance increases?

                   eg look at the complete fuck up that the Tuhoe raids were. You think that ‘data’ can’t be misconstrued or fitted to look a certain way? You think that they won’t go looking to make the pieces fit the theory?
                   • Populuxe1 …

                     4 July 2013 at 6:18 pm

                     Of course, had the government been monitoring Greenpeace more closely in 1985, they might have picked up their infiltration by French Secret Service agents and the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior prevented. The fact of the matter is that activist groups are the perfect vehicle for foreign agents to infiltrate.
                   • weka …

                     4 July 2013 at 6:37 pm

                     Are you completely thick? That’s not why the govt spies on activists.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   4 July 2013 at 6:54 pm

                   This is not the experience with Police database systems its not the case with the current GCSB system, both of which have been demonstrated in court to have been accessed or used inappropriately

                   Yep, they have, this doesn’t prove that we don’t need the database, only that better systems need to be put in place to prevent inappropriate access.

                   Yes, we need the database because crime does happen and the statistics that are generated from other data also helps us immeasurably.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     4 July 2013 at 7:07 pm

                     Oh fuck off Draco you are fucking dreaming. Seriously, these ideas you have are amongst the absolutely most dangerous and corrosive to NZ democracy on the entire fucking Standard, and that includes all the idiot RWNJ proposals.

                     Wait until the next Sir Robert Muldoon gets in or the next Sid Holland, or a sociopathic version of John Key, with their hand picked intelligence chiefs and then give him access to your beautiful little surveillance and citizen activities recording tool.

                     Stupid.
           • Pascal's bookie 8.1.1.1.1.2

             4 July 2013 at 3:06 pm

             What might google be doing with all the metadata Pop?

             You’re sounding a bit like muzza here, all hints of secret things that people should be aware of if they weren’t so naive etc.

             So call me naive. fair enough. Educate me about the scale of the threat google poses.

             I have the usual knowledge about police states so I know about the threats of that states pose. Are they the same?
             • Draco T Bastard …

               4 July 2013 at 4:28 pm

               Well, it comes down to who runs the police states and usually it’s the people with wealth and power such as Google.

               “Fascism should really be called Corporatism as it is the merging of government and business.”

               Which is what we’re seeing as more and more government services are carried out by private businesses.
             • Populuxe1 …

               4 July 2013 at 5:17 pm

               A government is likely to keep that information to itself – it is only motivated by threats to itself. A corporation’s only motivation is profit – they could sell your data to anyone including everything from debt collectors to organised criminals.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 4 July 2013 at 5:30 pm

                 Somewhat impractical distinctions, I fear. For instance, in the US, corporate officers and government officers move between their positions as heads of banks and the White House staff in a never ending game of musical chairs.

                 And in NZ, we have seen plenty of politicians spend their time in Parliament, setting up their lifestyle and career outside of Parliament.
               • Pascal's bookie …

                 4 July 2013 at 5:31 pm

                 Any evidence that companies sell credit card #s to criminal gangs?

                 That would seem to be a fairly easy thing to do, and yet they don’t, as far as I’m aware. Any idea why, or whether those reasons would be transferable to metadata?

                 ‘Threats to itself’, is a pretty broad category too, I’ll note in passing.
                 • Populuxe1 …

                   4 July 2013 at 5:55 pm

                   I doubt they would sell credit card data, but what if you were in witness protection and a company sold contextual data that could be used to locate you to a shell company that was a front for whoever was looking for you? Or perhaps that data could be used to formulate increasingly convincing confidence scams.
                   • Pascal's bookie …

                     4 July 2013 at 6:31 pm

                     Why wouldn’t they sell credit card numbers?

                     Ready buyers that’s for sure.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     4 July 2013 at 6:56 pm

                     Well, they have bee knowingly working with the crims to launder money so what’s to say that they haven’t?
                 • weka …

                   4 July 2013 at 5:57 pm

                   
                   Any evidence that companies sell credit card #s to criminal gangs?

                   That would seem to be a fairly easy thing to do, and yet they don’t, as far as I’m aware. Any idea why, or whether those reasons would be transferable to metadata?

                   That’s what I meant when I said that corporations are still bound by the laws of the land. If google sold it’s data illegally, and was found out, do you think nothing would come of it?

                   I’m not doubting that google is very powerful, and I was one of the people that spoke out about privacy concerns when they first bought in gmail etc (to which I was told, if you’ve got nothing to hide you having nothing to fear, and, what could possibly go wrong?). But govts taking themselves beyond the law is a whole other order of badness.

                   My other question:

                   What does google have about me that I don’t know?

                   What do the five eyes have about me that I don’t know?

                   And what does the govt have about me that google doesn’t?

                   Does google have access to the details my ISP holds about me? Does it have access to my medical records? My records at WINZ? Does it have recordings of my phone calls? Does it know who my neighbours are? My friends? Does it know which political party I belong to? Does it know what I really think about the Tuhoe raids, the TPPA, whether I marched against the Tour, whether I’ll be at x protest next week?

                   Is google going to put a bug in my living room, bedroom, phone because my flatemate/best friend is a member of an animal rights or peace activist organisation. Or knows Tame Iti. Or KDC?

                   As I said, I spoke out early about the potential problems of what google would become, and I think google can become alot worse than it is now. But it pales in comparison to what the NZ govt is becoming and the impacts that will have on our lives.

                   “At least the government can be held to account whereas multi-national corporations?”

                   Really? How’s that working out with the current lot?
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     4 July 2013 at 7:00 pm

                     Does it know who my neighbours are?

                     Probably.

                     Really? How’s that working out with the current lot?

                     Yep, we have some work to do but they will be gone next election and we can persuade the next government to put in laws that prevent the dictatorial ways of this government. I’ve even suggested the shape of such a law.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 4 July 2013 at 5:33 pm

                 A government is likely to keep that information to itself – it is only motivated by threats to itself.

                 The US diplomatic cables released by wikileaks should have shattered the last remnants of this illusion. The US gov actively aids US corporations on commercial matters, up to and including economic espionage.
                 • Populuxe1 …

                   4 July 2013 at 5:56 pm

                   Because those commercial matters are to the benefit of the state and therefore the analogy still holds.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     4 July 2013 at 7:10 pm

                     Well in that case, I agree with everything that you say – there is no clear bright line between state activities and private sector activities any longer, in fact quite the opposite is true.
           • weka 8.1.1.1.1.3

             4 July 2013 at 6:01 pm

             “Also, why has Kim Dotcom suddenly become your best buddy? He’s probably as scummy as Key. My enemy’s enemy is only my friend up until they decide to invade my borders while I’m destracted by my other enemy.”

             Where have I ever said that KDC is my best buddy? Or anything about his moral, ethics, motivations, trustworthiness?
   • Huginn 8.2

     4 July 2013 at 4:21 pm

     Google does not aspire to enforce a monopoly on the application of legitimate violence.
     • Populuxe1 8.2.1

       4 July 2013 at 5:19 pm

       No, but it might sell your data to people who aspire to enforce a monopoly of the application of illigitemate violence.
       • Pascal's bookie 8.2.1.1

         4 July 2013 at 6:41 pm

         I wonder still, why nothing like this has happened as far as we know.

         Or rather, I wonder if you might have any ideas about that.
9. Dv 9

   4 July 2013 at 1:17 pm

   Sort of Ironic too that Key and Banks went to extremes (including raids on the media) to keep thier teatapes secret too.
   • Populuxe1 9.1

     4 July 2013 at 1:19 pm

     Very much so – but all politicians are hypocrites – it’s just a matter of degree
10. Rogue Trooper 10

    4 July 2013 at 1:44 pm

    from what I gathered from Dotcom on Campbell Live:
    -“US committing mass surveillance on the world”
    -“and other Five-eyes partners”
    -Five years of PRISM data was, and can be sought when background ‘enquiries’ are carried out.
    -Regarding Edward Snowden – “I don’t know him personally, and that’s all I have to say about that” 😉
    -US are in breach of 1/3 of UN charters they’re signed to.
    “Gonna try to do my best to influence politics”…in this country. – Kim Dotcom

    Irony: “they cal me (Dotcom) a pirate”.
11. Rogue Trooper 11

    4 July 2013 at 1:45 pm

    meanwhile, Corrections are overhauling how they handle confidential information data-base. hmmmm
    What does it all mean…
12. captain hook 12

    4 July 2013 at 1:54 pm

    what I really want to know is this. where are the million new Aucklanders coming from.
    I was taught at UNI that cities dont reproduce themselves.
    growth only comes form immigration be it rural or international. so what are they going to do if they materialise.
    and dont fret.
    If sky can make a buck peddling their tripe to Kiwis then all other multinationals who can see a profit in our wunnerful lill country will be here come what may.
    • lprent 12.1

      4 July 2013 at 2:22 pm

      Probably from the same place where the last million came from – immigration from within NZ (the regions tend to produce a surplus of kids that mostly migrate here before or after their OE), and from outside.

      When I was born in 1959 there was something like 420k people in Auckland (the census in 1961 was about 450k), in other words just a bit bigger than Wellington now. One of my parents was an immigrant from the King Country and the other was a local. Which since Auckland had nearly doubled in population since they were born 20 years earlier was mildly odd.

      But nothing much changes in the political process with Auckland….

      People were finding the rate of growth in Auckland remarkable even in 1961. Public transport at the time was in disarray because some idiot minister in the National government of the time had literally torn out the public transport rails because he wanted to build motorways. So Steven Joyce is following in a long tradition of stupidity and the National party is following it’s long tradition of having stupid ministers and fucking up Auckland.
      • Colonial Viper 12.1.1

        4 July 2013 at 3:01 pm

        They seem to vote in a lot of National MPs however.
        • Rogue Trooper 12.1.1.1

          4 July 2013 at 3:08 pm

          Oh, and wonder why that might be…let us ponder it for, like, never. 😀
          • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.1.1

            4 July 2013 at 3:33 pm

            Labour is just misunderstood; if only the electorate *knew* how good Labour is, it would hardly ever get voted out.

            I’m not sure if anyone has considered why a political party which sees itself as representing the views and interests of the vast majority of “ordinary NZers” struggles to climb over 32% in polls.

            Unless of course, it doesn’t really actually represent the views and interests of the vast majority of ordinary NZers and they’ve over the decades, cottoned on to it.
      • karol 12.1.2

        4 July 2013 at 4:17 pm

        Ah, yes. I was born in Auckland about a decade earlier. My mother was from Auckland, my father from the country, but he came to Auckland for work.

        I recall the building of the motorway through Greenlane – it was a massive project at the time.

        Prior to that, only some families had cars, and those that did, only had one. I grew up cycling, walking and using buses. Roads weren’t that busy.

        Of my generation in my Auckland-born extended family, the minority are still living in Auckland. Others are elsewhere in NZ or overseas.
13. Adrian 13

    4 July 2013 at 2:19 pm

    What does DotCom know? Probably anything he bloody well likes, he has access to huge computing power and appears to have some very, very clever buggers working for and with him. What’s the bet he knows everything ( or almost ) the GCSB does and certainly as much as the incompetent SIS ?
    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      4 July 2013 at 2:55 pm

      What’s the bet he knows everything ( or almost ) the GCSB does and certainly as much as the incompetent SIS ?

      That’s one bet I won’t be taking. He probably even uses the data better.
14. Adrian 14

    4 July 2013 at 3:03 pm

    So if Key says he knows that KDC doesn’t know what he says he knows you wouldn’t bet on Key knowing more than bugger all, and that Key may well be shitting his pants or just weeing them a bit has got me whistling through the day happy in my work.
15. yeshe 15

    4 July 2013 at 3:20 pm

    oh, so mean Key-wee ?? that’s really funny … whistle while you work, whistle while you work … 🙂
16. yeshe 16

    4 July 2013 at 3:24 pm

    or maybe he can do a piggy Muldoon and run Key-wee-wee all the way home ?
17. aerobubble 17

    4 July 2013 at 3:46 pm

    Key faces off DotCom, how has it come to this! Obama facing off Snowdon? Cameran facing off Assange. If only there was more distance between the oversight of these agencies and those they oversee! But that would mean the likes of Dunne and Banks would not get to sit over the intelligence services, can you imagine that, Hone one seat puts him on the intelligence committee!!! Else cries of racism and what makes Banks and Dunne so respectable, given Banks in up before the court and Dunne has been thrown off the committee. The joke here people is the shallow excuse for oversight of this most secret of endeavors, that now sees Key facing down DotCom.
    • Anne 17.1

      4 July 2013 at 5:07 pm

      Key faces off DotCom, how has it come to this! Obama facing off Snowdon? Cameran facing off Assange.

      Made the same point to some family members today. KDC’s smiling response to Campbell’s question “whether KDC had been in touch with Snowden” was intriguing. It really is becoming a truly fascinating international affair!

Links to post

1. The Daily Blog Watch Thursday 4 July « The Daily Blog: posted on 5 July 2013 at 12:16 pm

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