Hone in the House

Written By: - Date published: 7:30 am, December 15th, 2012 - 75 comments
Categories: class war, hone harawira, mana-party, Maori Issues, maori party, pasifika, poverty, workers' rights - Tags:

In Hone’s time as the sole MP for for the party, Mana has established a clear identity.  It as an identity strongly grounded in practice and activism.  It particularly represents low income people, whether doing paid or unpaid work, employed or on social security. Mana is envisioned as a movement for all people in Aotearoa, while aiming to provide a strong independent voice for Maori. It represents those with least power, status or wealth, providing a voice for Pasifika people and campaigning for children, especially those living in poverty. Hone’s “Feed the Kids”, Breakfast and Lunch in Schools Bill will have its first reading in February 2013.

There have been questions and predictions about what will happen to the Maori Party when Tariana Turia resigns as leader, and when she leaves parliament altogether.  There have also been some reflections on the legacy of Turia and her role in the party.  Hone ‘s journey has  been strongly intertwined with the Maori Party. Can Mana develop and establish a strong continuing parliamentary presence, or is it essentially another one-MP party?

On Thursday, Mana’s identity was strongly reflected in Hone’s Christmas adjournment speech, in which Hone Harawira said:

I am proud that MANA members have been on the front line in the battle to stop asset sales, to support the New Zealand Maori Council bid to protect Maori interests in water, to help keep our seas free of dangerous deep sea oil drilling programmes, to stand against the take-over of New Zealand sovereignty by multinational corporates, to stand alongside those fighting to keep their homes, to support worker’s demands for safe working conditions and a decent living wage, and of course to promote the notion that feeding kids in schools is not an issue of cost, but one of justice.

Mr Speaker – MANA is rightly seen as living on the hard edge of parliamentary politics, but people would be wrong to think that the protest vote is the only constituency that MANA speaks to, and I am proud to point to MANA’s election manifesto to show how much MANA is in tune with where the country wants to go.

When MANA proposed “20,000 new state houses over two years” to address the massive problem of homelessness in this country, kick-start apprenticeships and employment in the housing industry, and provide a boost to the country’s flagging economy by investing in people who spend their money here rather than on nebulous overseas stocks, our proposal met with bemused smiles from people who know better … so it was comforting to see Labour expand our “20,000 houses in 2 years” philosophy into their own “100,000 houses in 10 years”.

And many are those who scoffed at MANA’s Feed the Kids proposal last year, but a government funded food in schools programme for low decile schools is now not only widely supported within parliament (indeed, a week after I put my bill into the ballot, the leader of the Opposition put in a similar bill), it has also become one of the lead campaigns in the campaign to reduce poverty.

Hone has been on the front line, arrested while sitting in his car watching a protest against removal of state housing and its tenants from Glen Innes.  A destructive government initiative that Mana described as ethnic and social cleansing.  John Minto has also strongly represented Mana in public and on the streets.  The Mana president Annette Sykes has continued to be a background presence, as seen in this statement she posted in November.  That post is about Harawira being voted the top politician fighting for Maori rights by a Native Affairs poll.

Sue Bradford is sill associated with Mana, but seems to be more involved with her own campaign groups such as Auckland Action Against Poverty.

I am still leaning towards party voting Green, but if they seem to become too centrist, I will be looking at Mana.  I am a little wary as Mana doesn’t have a long track record on which to assess it.  I am reminded that I was very hopeful about the Maori Party when it started, although a little wary of its social conservatism.

The Mana movement is doing some great stuff on the ground. Does it have a long future in parliament with increasing numbers of MPs?

75 comments on “Hone in the House ”

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  1. fatty 1
    15 December 2012 at 8:49 am

    In Hone’s time as the sole MP for for the party, Mana has established a clear identity

    Yes…when they first formed, many political commentators were saying that Mana were split ideologically. But from what I could see Mana were far more ideologically coherent than Labour and National.
    Since biculturalism was introduced in the 1980s, Maori identity and culture has arguably strengthened, but at the same time Maori have become relatively more impoverished. So, although mixing identity and class within the same party was supposedly new (Greens have done it for years), its more logical than third ‘wayism’, or the Maori Party.
    The powers that be only allow identity politics within a neoliberal framework…have those same policies alongside demands for economic justice and the group gets labeled extremist.

    Hone says what I wish politicians would say. It’d be great for NZ if they could get more votes next election.

    • Morrissey 1.1
      15 December 2012 at 10:03 am

      Your ignorance, “fatty”, is matched only by your arrogance.

      • fatty 1.1.1
        15 December 2012 at 10:11 am

        feel free to post an argument alongside your insult

        • Morrissey 1.1.1.1
          15 December 2012 at 12:17 pm

          Sorry “fatty”. I’ve just re-read your post and realized I made a horrible mistake. I thought you were the person you were responding to.

          Please accept my most humble apologies.

          • fatty 1.1.1.1.1
            15 December 2012 at 1:21 pm

            haha, no worries at all Morrissey…I thought that may have been the case, as I’m often in agreement with your comments

    • xtasy 1.2
      16 December 2012 at 1:50 am

      fatty: Interesting this is, that you mention “biculturalism” and Maori interests having been strenghtened due to that new political approach years ago.

      That is all nice and good, but look at the agenda today, which has clearly abandoned ‘biculturalism” and replaced it with “multi-culturalism”.

      If you are serious about Maori rights and influence in this country, you better bloody well wake up.

      Divide and rule has always been the agenda of the British colonisers and “the Crown”. The political establishment saw Maori assertiveness rather as a ‘threat’, hence they only engaged in some “pay offs” and appeasement, and otherwise did all to “diversify” NZ population by allowing large scale migration from a wide range of countries. Where was Maori input in this?

      TOW settlements have largely only served an elite of Maoridom, and the rest of especially urban Maori are beggars to use some social services now offered by trusts and co-ops with the government. Is that “settlement”, compensation or empowerment?

      I dare to say NO!

      Maori have been sold out, will continue to be sold out, and they are being marginalised even more, by constructed large scale migration of people from East Asia, the UK, South Africa and so forth, to keep them “under tabs”.

      That is the true agenda of NZ governments, and you better wake up to the bloody truth. We now have people argue that ethnic origin should not be relevant, it is all about cultural choices and chosen identities. Now are people going to be ignored like the native American indians, to be “merged” into the mainstream, to abolish their rights and so forth?

      Most countries still acknowledge heritage and other rights, they certainly have started doing so in largely Indian countries in South America, like Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador. But that is all “racist” now, is it not?

      I fear that the PC brigades dominated by manipulative imperialists are too happy to apply arguments to deny rights to any person, rightly or wrongly, based on ethnicity or cultural heritage, as the “multi cultural” agenda is now the chosen divisive instrument of the capitalists and imperialists.

      If only some readers here would understand the implications!

  2. bad12 2
    15 December 2012 at 9:00 am

    Good speech Hone, as far as a vote for Mana goes in 2014 i too waver between a stronger if albeit more ‘middle class’ Green voice in the House or to cast one for Mana in the hope of seeing that Party grow,

    I am still a bit pissed at Hone for His overt support,(while still a member of the Maori Party), for the rack raising of taxes on tobacco products,

    For every one person Hone and the Maori Party managed to deter from the use of tobacco products by rack raising the taxation of them there were another 9,(a high % of them Maori), who, unable to give up the use of tobacco products because of the totally addictive nature of Nicotine were forced into a more precarious state of poverty than that prior to the tax rises,

    If there’s one thing that will kill you way quicker than the use of tobacco products it’s the poor diet suffered by those who have severely limited means of income, so the Maori Party in particular and Hone as a participant at the time didn’t seem to give a thought or care about ‘the unintended consequences’ as the Maori Party in particular sought the taxation that would pay for ‘Whanau Ora’,

    Except for Hone’s view on how to stop the next generation becoming addicted to tobacco products i usually find myself in agreement with Him but at the moment i still lean toward the Greens for 2014…

    • clashmanviper 2.1
      15 December 2012 at 9:21 am

      While I don’t neccesarily agree with the tobacco policies in this country, you can get 8 weeks of nicotine patches for $3 and spend the rest that would have normally gone on tobacco on healthier food. So…

      • bad12 2.1.1
        15 December 2012 at 9:41 am

        So, you obviously know very little about the ‘Nicotine addiction’, nictine patches work well for a while on a minority of those who have attempted to stop smoking but within 6 months most of those who have stopped either through the use of nicotine patches or other means are back smoking the stuff,

        Nicotine patches are to tobacco smokers what methadone is to heroin addicts, it’s simply a maintainence dose of the particular product of addiction,
        Prison inmates having used their 8 weeks of nicotine patches have become so desperat as to be involving themselves in the practice of soaking used patches in water and then soaking used tea leaves in the extract, drying and smoking the concoction,
        For ‘a light’ these desperados are accessing the live wires of the power supply and creating ‘spark’ by touching the positive and negative wires together at times shorting out thehpower to whole blocks of the jail,

        Such is the nature of addiction, once addicted those so afflicted remain so for life…

  3. marty mars 3
    15 December 2012 at 9:05 am

    “I am proud that MANA members have been on the front line in the battle to stop asset sales, to support the New Zealand Maori Council bid to protect Maori interests in water, to help keep our seas free of dangerous deep sea oil drilling programmes, to stand against the take-over of New Zealand sovereignty by multinational corporates, to stand alongside those fighting to keep their homes, to support worker’s demands for safe working conditions and a decent living wage, and of course to promote the notion that feeding kids in schools is not an issue of cost, but one of justice.”

    Yes that is what Mana stands for and thank goodness they do. The struggle against oppression and disadvantage takes awhile and Hone and Mana have consolidated well by sticking to the real issues that matter – like those outlined by Hone in his speech.

    Mana has enemies to the front and back and both sides but it doesn’t matter because of the strong kaupapa of the party. This is still just the start of the beginning for the Mana Movement and as fake left political parties implode and supporters of those parties realise the illusion they have been supporting, maybe then they will join or vote for Mana. Maybe… but that will take a certain amount of fronting up, so I’m not holding my breath. Too many have too much to lose to trust tangata whenua and its been that way since colonisation began so nothing new there, just a different bunch of people. Anyway what will be will be.

    True heroes of this country like John Minto, have already shown the way.

  4. OneTrackViper 4
    15 December 2012 at 9:12 am

    “MANA will promote the principle that what is good for Maori is good for Aotearoa”

    So he is focussed on maori first and then Aotearoa. Does what is “good for Aotearoa” include Pakeha or is it best for Aotearoa if Tauiwi are sent back to where they belong. Sounds like a racist manifesto to me. Or is it only defined as racism when white guys do it.

    • marty mars 4.1
      15 December 2012 at 9:28 am

      No a bit more like – if good for Māori then that is good for everyone.

    • fatty 4.2
      15 December 2012 at 9:41 am

      Sounds like a racist manifesto to me. Or is it only defined as racism when white guys do it.

      Racism is a form of violence. Just like physical violence or economic violence, racism depends on who holds power and what people do with that power. The reason you perceive Hone as racist is because you fail to account for the different levels of power held by Maori and Pakeha.
      Here’s an example (I am Pakeha)…if I was walking down the street in NZ and an old Chinese man walked past me and called me a white piece of shit, then I would probably laugh and think he is slightly deranged. But, if I was the one that called him a yellow piece of shit, then he would probably feel threatened. You may perceive his ‘white piece of shit’ statement as being racist, but their is little power behind it. However, if I was living in China and the same thing occurred, then I would feels more threatened than I do in NZ.
      Same thing happens if a frail old person tells me she will punch me in the face…I am not threatened, but if I was to tell a frail old lady I was going to punch her is the face, then the threat exists. Same statement between two people, but different levels of threat/violence exist because of the difference in physical power.
      Racism is not just words…it depends on power, access to resources, what is ‘normal’ within a given society, etc. Racism is influenced by political, economic, social and physical power (as well as many other things).
      So in summary, the answer to your question – is it only defined as racism when white guys do it? …the answer is no, not always, but in NZ today it is far easier for white people to be racist.

      • Olwyn 4.2.1
        15 December 2012 at 9:51 am

        Well said, Fatty!

        • idegus 4.2.1.1
          15 December 2012 at 10:52 am

          yep, great comment. this one goes round & round & i liked the ‘be threatened by an old lady/threaten punch old lady in face’ analogy, well said.

      • Populuxe1 4.2.2
        15 December 2012 at 1:23 pm

        You are completely ignoring that there is an economy of privilege. One notes that when Margaret Mutu was claiming Maori could not be racist because they had now power, she was ignoring the centuries of privilege and authority invested in her academic title, and her authority over any Pakeha students in her lectures. And Hone Harawera as a member of Parliament has considerably more authority and influence than does the average Pakeha on the street, so you might actually want to update your arguments to New Zealand as it is today and not as it was thirty years ago.

        • fatty 4.2.2.1
          15 December 2012 at 3:18 pm

          I agree with you, but you are wrong that I didn’t acknowledge other forms of privilege…read it properly next time, near the end of the comment I said “Racism is influenced by political, economic, social and physical power (as well as many other things).”
          Academic privilege exists, and true, all lecturers will hold privilege over their students, but in comparison to other academics, Mutu is down the list. Maori, woman, Arts – she ticks all the Other boxes.
          Yes, Hone has political privilege, and he does have more authority and influence over the average Pakeha on the street, but Hone never gets listened to seriously…so his influence is limited. Generally, Maori only hold political influence if they play the neoliberal game.

      • Brett Dale 4.2.3
        15 December 2012 at 3:05 pm

        Racism is when you judge people by their race, it doesn tdepend if they power or a bigger house or a better wage.

        The kid on facebook who commented on Clara winning NZ got talent and said “F*** pakeha bitch, she didnt deserve to win” is a racist.

        The guy who started that white supremacist group in chch is a racist.

        The guy on “Are you smarter than a fifth grader” who picked the asian kid over the african american kid for a math is racist.
        Hone is a racist for his language directed at white people.

        The act MP who made a snarky comment about a school that had of maori students is a racist.

        Racists come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and races.

        • felixviper 4.2.3.1
          15 December 2012 at 3:40 pm

          You’re defining “racism” as having the same meaning as “prejudice”.

          A lot of people get stuck on this one.

        • fatty 4.2.3.2
          15 December 2012 at 3:43 pm

          Racism is when you judge people by their race, it doesn tdepend if they power or a bigger house or a better wage.

          I think you missed the point. Not holding power does not mean that one cannot be racist, instead a lack of power will mean that an act of racism will have less impact. When a person holds privilege and/or power, then they must be more reflective of how their actions can disempower others.

      • Stephen 4.2.4
        15 December 2012 at 6:15 pm

        That was such a good analogy to illustrate power asymmetry in racism that I’m going to steal it and pass it off as my own.

      • xtasy 4.2.5
        16 December 2012 at 2:03 am

        You may go as far to call even “multi culturalism” “racist”, as it will likely be based on an understanding that an acknowlegment of “multipe” cultures means also, that there are many different “cultures”, most certainly to at least in part having “ethnic” reasons and foundations to exist.

        So multi culturalism may in itself be interpreted as being hidden racism, as it enforces the right of different “cultures”, usually based on the customs, behaviours, beliefs and values of certain differing “ethnic” groups, to assert themselves.

        That is of course a far stretched argument. But honestly why have “multi culturalism” on one hand, and then on the other criticising and denying Maori rights?

        Or are Maori as Tangata Whenua in future just “one amongst many” “cultures” that live in NZ?

        I see this whole debate going down a highly dangerous and volatile direction, as it will serve few, but the elite.

        I look at the TOW, with all its fault, I know for a fact, that most East Asian countries, whom we allow so much “equal” rights and freedom when it comes to their migrants coming here, are actually profoundly ethno centric and strongly defend their cultural, ethnic and political rights.

        NZ stands out as one of a few countries, allowing all kinds of migration, all equal rights (on the surface and “officially” at least), while most trading and migrant partners NZ deals with are much less “equal” and “tolerant”.

        To me NZ is a total “sell out place” now, and I am not convinced of fairness and so going on. Surely, if I was Maori, I would be furious, the Crown and state would be MY ENEMY number one!

  5. Dr Terry 5
    15 December 2012 at 9:28 am

    Great stuff again Karol, I am right with you! We must disregard the nasty cynicism of people in the world like OTV. Possibly Mana and Greens could unite? Not yet sure about uniting with Labour. Also, yes, Minto is a true hero of this country.

  6. vivaciousviper 6
    15 December 2012 at 10:02 am

    Years a go i thought Hone was far too radical, now i find myself admiring his qualities,
    he is a man of ‘Mana’ an apt title for a man who goes in to bat for those who would be
    discarded by labour and by the maori party.
    Hone’s speech in parliament was said with feeling and was genuine.
    My prediction for the next election is that the maori party will be gone,punishment for
    standing by and supporting a nact govt that has destroyed the hope and wellbeing of
    many nz families, the maori party could have stood by the people and bought this nact
    govt down,but prefered to keep the baubles of office,shameful.
    Good on you Hone, you and your family have a great christmas.

    • BM 6.1
      15 December 2012 at 10:29 am

      National dosen’t even need the Maori party to govern.
      They’re only there because Key wanted to be inclusive.

      • Matthew Whitehead 6.1.1
        15 December 2012 at 10:51 am

        I think you mean because he wanted to kill their Party, because hey, look at where all their credability went.

        • BM 6.1.1.1
          15 December 2012 at 11:09 am

          There wouldn’t be a chance in hell of the Maori party having any influence within a Labour lead coalition.

          The Maori faction within the Labour party wouldn’t allow it, the only way the Maori party could see any of it’s policies seeing the light of day is if they sided with National.
          As I wrote earlier,John Key didn’t need the Maori party but brought them on board because he believed they had something to offer .

          That’s why Sharples and Turia have some much respect for Key.

          • felixviper 6.1.1.1.1
            15 December 2012 at 11:17 am

            Except now the maori party is over.

            Finished.

            Done like a dinner.

            • BM 6.1.1.1.1.1
              15 December 2012 at 11:26 am

              Better to be inside the house, then outside in the dog box.
              You can achieve fuck all when you’re on the outside.

              • felixviper …
                15 December 2012 at 11:29 am

                You haven’t been paying attention mate. They’ll be lucky to even be in <i>parliament</i> after the next election.

          • ak 6.1.1.1.2
            15 December 2012 at 12:25 pm

            BM: As I wrote earlier,John Key didn’t need the Maori party but brought them on board because he believed they had something to offer .

            Utter crap. He “bought them on board” because he didn’t have a majority and ACT made it very clear on election night that it would “wag the dog” with its electorally poisonous policies whenever it liked. The MP was his essential lifeline to self preservation.

            But keep bulshitting and portaying him as a nice guy, B. The press supports you, and you never know, one day the public might forget that national only crawled out of the gutter on the back of the deliberate, balatantly racist Orewa One “one law for all” campaign.

            Sure your name isn’t BMW?

  7. Viper73 7
    15 December 2012 at 10:11 am

    The Mana party has much the same future as United Future

  8. Splooge 8
    15 December 2012 at 10:16 am

    John Minto is to the Mana party what Kimble Bent was to Ngati Ruanui, a tame pakeha, a curiosity.

    • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 8.1
      15 December 2012 at 11:23 am

      Your pseudonym Splooge – a mixture of stooge and splodge (a sticky messy sort of custard our family has at Christmas)? You’re a bit of a curiosity yourself M8.

      • Splooge 8.1.1
        15 December 2012 at 11:29 am

        not a fan of southpark eh?

        • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 8.1.1.1
          15 December 2012 at 12:00 pm

          Splooge – looked up urban dictionary on google.
          ‘When a man ejaculates a huge amount of semen all over the place’
          Not a pseudonym to have respect for. What about the person behind it. Do you have the background of effort to diss John Minto? Or do you spend all your time on sp..ge? You need to concentrate on higher, cleverer and more complex ideas if you’re going to be a useful addition to TS.

          • Splooge 8.1.1.1.1
            15 December 2012 at 9:45 pm

            Yeah, it it great when you can hold out. Imagine if you were a christian. you would splooge all over the universe

  9. Rodel 9
    15 December 2012 at 10:39 am

    I listened to Hone’s speech. A lot of heart there.
    By some error I then listened to John Banks speech (some of it). No heart at all… but certainly another part of the anatomy. Can’t believe I’m contributing to this person’s salary.

  10. kiwi_prometheus 10
    15 December 2012 at 11:12 am

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hone_Harawira#Activism

    ” in November 2009 Hawawira was asked to repay some travel costs after skipping a taxpayer-funded conference in Brussels to go sightseeing in Paris. “How many times in my lifetime am I going to get to Europe? So I thought, ‘F*** it, I’m off. I’m off to Paris’,” he said.”

    How many times in my lifetime am I going to get to Europe? Fuck, I should get a tax payer funded trip to Europe too then.

    And this guy is suppose to be “different” to the rest of them.

    “Harawira said that the former leader of Al Qaeda Osama bin Laden’s actions were those of “a man who fought for the rights, the land and the freedom of his people” and that people should not be damning him but mourn him…Harawira later explained that Māori do not speak ill of the dead “even if such a person has done bad things””

    What a nut case.

    “On 31 July 2010 Harawira told the New Zealand Herald he “wouldn’t feel comfortable” if one of his children came home with a Pākehā partner, but he asked whether “all Pākehās would be happy with their daughters coming home with a Māori boy? The answer is they wouldn’t.” He was asked, since some of his whānau have dated Pacific Islanders and he didn’t have an issue with it, “does that make him prejudiced?” He said “Probably, but how many people don’t have prejudices?””

    What a cunt.

    For gender feminists like Karol, QoT, Felix et al reverse racism is ok, because Maoris are the underdogs, so it’s ok for them to be racist.

    Meanwhile Karol and her ilk shriek “Racist! Sexist!” at anyone ( white ) who doesn’t buy into their ideological extremism.

    [Felixviper has a point – that’s a direct attack on an author. Back it up, or apologise, or take the rest of the year off. r0b]

    • felixviper 10.1
      15 December 2012 at 11:15 am

      Link or apology please.

      ps kiwi_prometheus does this shit all the fucking time and I’m getting sick of it.

      He accuses people – completely unprompted – of holding all kinds of views and NEVER backs it up.

      Can someone just ban the little fuckwit?

      • fatty 10.1.1
        15 December 2012 at 11:33 am

        yeah, KP is a troll. His statements are so simplistic and wrong that they don’t add anything to the debate, its always a wind-up.
        I can’t remember reading a KP post that was worth reading. Not only does KP show an inability to think beyond radiolive soundbites, he also appears to have an obsession with karol/QoT/felix

        • Colonial Weka 10.1.1.1
          15 December 2012 at 1:24 pm

          “I can’t remember reading a KP post that was worth reading.”
           
          Likewise. He just comes here to post hate and wind people up.

    • QoTViper 10.2
      15 December 2012 at 11:58 am

      Well it certainly isn’t sexist to use “cunt” as a perjorative.

    • Neoleftie 10.3
      15 December 2012 at 2:04 pm

      Hone has a bill regarding feeding children inPlowright decile schools, not selected by gender, race or creed but by need.
      Um what are you doing KP – nothing right righty.
      So hone is blunt a non poli poli an activist but least he is honesof with his inner beliefs opinions and actions unlike most other pollies.

    • karol 10.4
      15 December 2012 at 5:49 pm

      Thanks, r0b. I’ve been out working.
       
      It’s amazing how some people label any change to be more inclusive as “extremist”.  I actually rarely use the words “racist” or “sexist”.  Pretty sure I didn’t in the post above.  I’d rather explain what I see as the problem, if I have the time.  Certainly my post above was focused on what the Mana party are doing for all people on low incomes, whatever their ethnicity.  A high proportion of Maori and Pasifika people are on low incomes, and their voices too often get marginalised.
       
      I do not support any MP using taxpayer money for a bit of tourism.  So Hone deserved to be held to account over that.  
       
      It’s interesting that Harawira has not done things that have been picked up as controversial of late.  I recall that during last year’s TV election interviews, panels and debates, some MSM journalists or commentators said Hone behave in a quite mature and calm way.

  11. NoseViper (The Nose knows) 11
    15 December 2012 at 11:20 am

    Hone in Mana sounds like the voice of reason in NZ for developing socially useful policies that will make a difference. He just has to watch his language. People who mouth off excessively don’t give the appearance of being thoughtful in-control persons.

    And my thoughts on low language applies also to kiwi prometheus.
    A waste of his time to write such a long crazy dissertation. Why don’t you go and mow the lawn ready for Christmas or something useful. Don’t worry your little head about things you can’t understand k-p.

    I wonder if voting Green for Party and Mana for Electorate would go as a way of showing support for Mana while maintaining Greens solid base as a coming growing party which will continue to draw thinking Old Labour members who decide to no longer prop it up.

  12. NoseViper (The Nose knows) 12
    15 December 2012 at 12:03 pm

    lprent I couldn’t get a reply window just now, there was no frame for it and cursor didn’t work in the space, and had to get one by going to the end of the comment.

    And or something similar appears in the window amongst my comment when I’m in the edit window.

  13. Colonial Weka 13
    15 December 2012 at 12:26 pm

    “I am still leaning towards party voting Green, but if they seem to become too centrist, I will be looking at Mana.”
     
    Alot will depend on what is happening pre-next election. If Mana get more electorate MPs than their list vote would give them (likely), then party voting for them is a wasted vote and runs the risk of handing the govt to NACT again.

    I can see the argument for party voting Mana as a long term strategy to increase their support, but I don’t think the benefit of this outweighs the risk of NACT being in power again after the next election. Once Mana have had two or three terms under their belt, then they might want to go after the party vote.
     

    • marty mars 13.1
      15 December 2012 at 1:33 pm

      Tactical voting is not going to keep the gnats out but stategic voting will IMO. At some point a line in the sand has to be drawn and if not now, then when? Who will represent us – those who have the same beliefs or those who are less worse than the others. I think party vote Mana is a viable strategy for those who believe in the kaupapa, anything else is a waste.

      • Colonial Weka 13.1.1
        15 December 2012 at 1:40 pm

        How do you see that the Marty?
         
        If too many people who would otherwise party vote Labour or Green, instead party vote Mana, then those votes are ‘lost’ in the count, which puts NACT ahead by those votes. How would another term of NACT help Mana?

        • marty mars 13.1.1.1
          15 December 2012 at 1:58 pm

          I think a term of the gnats or labour would be similar for Mana.
          The electorate votes are needed to get over the current line but that can be achieved by Party votes too – if enough people voted for Mana – which I realise is fantasy at the moment.

          I suppose I’ve got to the point where I think voting with conviction is the easiest and most effective way to align personal and political values.

          So for me I wouldn’t like Mana to ‘let’ anyone get their votes via some tactical agreement – no one else deserves them. (To be fair I am a past voter for the Greens and I see a bright future for both parties as they work closer together into the future, so the Greens deserve strong support too).

          • Colonial Weka 13.1.1.1.1
            15 December 2012 at 2:16 pm

            “I think a term of the gnats or labour would be similar for Mana.”
             
            How about for their constituencies though? Another 3 years of NACT will be devastating. And bearing in mind it wouldn’t be Labour as the other option, it would be a Labour/Greens coalition (here’s hoping NZF are out of the mix) hopefully with Mana support or even in the coalition (although they might be better off outside the coalition).
             
            “So for me I wouldn’t like Mana to ‘let’ anyone get their votes via some tactical agreement”
             
            Maybe. I know that the Greens are going all out for the party vote, but I think they need to be smarter in their approach. I think both Mana and the Greens need to look at how to work collaboratively. No point in the Greens standing people in electorates that are important to Mana, where doing so splits the vote. Likewise, while I can understand why Mana and the Greens would see the need to maximise the party vote, I’d like us to move past the dog eat dog model and find a co-operative politics.
             
            Personally I probably support Mana policies more than GP ones, but pragmatically I will give my party vote to the party where that vote will do the most good in terms of formation of govt.

            • marty mars 13.1.1.1.1.1
              15 December 2012 at 6:01 pm

              That’s fine if you want to give your vote that way, I understand your reasons but for me, even if it is true that as you say national and Labour are different, with national being worse, they are both not good and I won’t support either of them. Where I sit they create similar outcomes but I realise everyone sits somewhere different.

      • vto 13.1.2
        15 December 2012 at 1:47 pm

        Hello mr marty. How do you reckon someone with views like mine could support Hone? Lots of stuff fits but there a couple of biggies that you and I bash heads on at times which are stumbling blocks. Just curious, because he aint off my list.

        • marty mars 13.1.2.1
          15 December 2012 at 2:05 pm

          No one is perfect, we all make mistakes and sometimes hold views and opinions that others may find distasteful. Hone is like that, as are both you and I. The Mana Party is not Hone but Hone holds the mana and the first paragragh of the speech quoted from Karol says it all really. If you believe that the things he is talking about are important then vote for the party he is leader of.

  14. the sprout 14
    15 December 2012 at 1:08 pm

    Hone is a uniquely competent and principled politician.
    I expect he will soak up quite a few Labour and Maori party votes in the next election.
    His policies are easily the most clearly and consistently leftwing of all the parties.

    • mickysavage 14.1
      15 December 2012 at 7:21 pm

      I agree TS.
       
      When he entered Parliament many thought that he would crash and burn. And although he has the odd incident where he looks out of control (don’t we all!) he has stuck to it.
       
      I heard he gave up alcohol so that he could do his job better and he is the leader of the far left.
       
      MMP would work better if Mana had more MPs.  I would happily sacrifice a number of Labour MPs so that the likes of John Minto or Annette Sykes or Joe Carolan could be there challenging our current orthodoxy.

      • the sprout 14.1.1
        16 December 2012 at 6:59 am

        MMP would work better if Mana had more MPs. I would happily sacrifice a number of Labour MPs so that the likes of John Minto or Annette Sykes or Joe Carolan could be there challenging our current orthodoxy.

        agreed

        • Mary 14.1.1.1
          16 December 2012 at 10:04 am

          “I would happily sacrifice a number of Labour MPs”

          Me too, sacrifice Labour full-stop. The sooner we realise how serious a barrier the Labour party are to anything good for “those who can’t quite cut it” the better off we’ll all be. It’s now way beyond a joke. I say sacrifice the whole Labour party right now.

  15. Tiger Mountain 15
    15 December 2012 at 1:18 pm

    Early days for Mana but looking good. The tactical position of the TTT by-election to establish a parliamentary presence was proven correct. As the Māori Party fades Mana will have a chance of more electorate MPs such as Annette Sykes. Mana has made a significant contribution to undermining identity politics.

    What a lot of people miss is the cross pollinisation of left (including marxist left) and Māori nationalist forces and the involvement of young and previously marginalized people.

    Some iwi fighters are seeing TPPA and mining etc as linked to their own struggles and Pākehā left are developing a deeper understanding of Māori politics and culture.

  16. tc 16
    15 December 2012 at 1:39 pm

    Hone and mana have a bright future but he needs to reign in Bradford who tends to run her own agenda at the lefts expense.

    Her refusal to not stand against basher was ego over outcome and stopped sepuloni taking a cabinet ministers seat.

    • Lefty 16.1
      15 December 2012 at 5:07 pm

      Hone and mana have a bright future but he needs to reign in Bradford who tends to run her own agenda at the lefts expense.

      Mana members and supporters really wanted Bradford to stand.

      They couldn’t give a shit about a Labour Party that has betrayed them consistently and they don’t regard it as part of the left any more than they regard National, NZ First or United Future as part of the left.

      So they wouldn’t have voted for Carmel even if Bradford hadn’t stood.

      Some of the Greens that voted for their candidate (they got a lot more electorate votes than Mana) might have otherwise voted Labour though so are you suggesting the Green candidate should not have stood?

      I think you know this and are running some other agenda here tc.

      ps. Its rein in not reign in.

      • tc 16.1.1
        15 December 2012 at 8:45 pm

        My agenda is simple, get rid of the NACT. Spelling issues aside all she achieved by standing in Waitakere was destabilising labours chance of taking the seat from Bennett.
        Its this hate of labour, whilst mostly justified, tends to get in the way of the big picture, getting rid of the NACT.
        Enlighten me on this other agenda I have in your view, please.

        • Lefty 16.1.1.1
          16 December 2012 at 8:23 pm

          You haven’t told me why its ok for the Greens to stand against Labour but when Mana do it they are destabalising the left.

  17. Murray Olsen 17
    15 December 2012 at 4:13 pm

    What I like most about Mana (this applies to the Greens as well, to some extent) is that you don’t just vote Mana, you become active around the issues they fight on. It has the possibility of becoming a mass-based progressive movement with parliamentary representation, which is what our country and our people need.
    On racism: in Aotearoa in 2012 it is quite possible for Maori to hold and express anti-pakeha prejudices. It is not possible for Maori to use these prejudices in a systematic way to oppress pakeha, they simply do not have access to the levers of power necessary to do this. This is sufficient for me to accept that Maori in Aotearoa cannot be racist. The worst they can be is kupapa, which is the category I would use for Tau Henare and the Maori Party.

    • Mary 17.1
      15 December 2012 at 10:07 pm

      Yes, those accusations of racism against pakeha always annoy me. It’s fairly well established that an ethnic minority cannot be racist against the ruling majority; even our human rights legislation reflects this in its reference to affirmative action policies, for example. The same principle was used by Marx when he talked about the ‘decadent bourgeoisie’ versus the ‘ascendant proletariat’.

      There’s a real problem emerging at the moment around what constitutes racism and what doesn’t. The distinction you make, Murray, is real and an important one to retain. There’s a very real risk that it’s sliding away and will be lost forever. The consequences are very grave indeed. Of course it’s been the case for a while now that the “one New Zealand” bullshit has made it very easy for the right (and unfortunately others apparently not so right) to slam any attempt to help redress wrongs suffered by Maori. The problem is that nobody is making attempts to counter the takeover of the use of the word “racism” and its meaning by going back to basic principles about what really racism is. It wouldn’t be surprising, for example, to find in the not so distant future that the provisions within the Human Rights Act that protect affirmative action programmes against claims of discrimination get the chop because allow for the “proliferation of racism”. It might sound strange and over the top but I feel that we’re heading towards a place where anything aimed to fix past wrongs will be stamped racist simply because it involves nothing but differences based on ethnicity – a common language-controlling tactic used by the right. We know that this isn’t what racism is about, but unless we do something about it it won’t be long before it becomes a reality.

  18. Saarbo 18
    15 December 2012 at 11:28 pm

    I have developed a lot of respect for Hone. He is strongly representing people on welfare while Bennett and National show how low National are prepared to go by using them into scapegoats, I just find it so repulsive that National would do this to  people when they are down and at their weakest, just revolting. 
    Hone has been staunch in his support of these vulnerable people and so has Metiria. Jacinda Aderne has been good.
    Shearer and the neighbour on the roof story that he made up has been well documented. How a Labour leader survived that I have no idea. 
    Hone has been consistent, that is why he is the most trusted MP on Native Affairs surveys. He’s doing good work.

    • Mary 18.1
      16 December 2012 at 12:30 am

      “Hone has been staunch in his support of these vulnerable people and so has Metiria. Jacinda Aderne has been good.”

      Generally speaking, very generally, you’re right. Hone’s almost always right on the mark but his weakness, apart from his alienating delivery, is a tendency to subscribe to policies rooted in poor law thinking. His analysis is accurate and strong, but sometimes his solutions are to closely aligned to the private charity model therefore let him down.

      Metiria, again, is generally on the mark, but I was disappointed with her getting sucked in by the rhetoric generated around the the transition to work grant and people moving to Australia. That was really quite surprising because Metiria’s usually way more on to it than that.

      On the other hand, Jacinda Ardern, while she at times says the right things, there just ain’t no substance there – none at all. An example is how she sparked all that stuff about the transition to work grant. She doesn’t have a clue. Anyone can say “we need to look after those who can’t manage”. Crikey, even the Paula Bennett wouldn’t disagree with that. Essentially Ardern’s no better. Labour’s track record and failure to address the damage they did during their nine year war on the poor suggests nothing will change and that given the chance it’ll be business as usual. Let’s not give Labour that chance. Snakes.

  19. JonL 19
    16 December 2012 at 11:06 pm

    Mana have got my party vote (also last election) – probably Green for electorate (unless Labour produce a rabbit out of the hat)

    They have many policies reminiscent of “old” Labour……like……help those at the bottom of the pile…policies that now seem more and more foreign to current Labour.