National’s firearms forums – what could go wrong?

Written By: - Date published: 7:56 am, October 10th, 2018 - 125 comments
Categories: activism, democracy under attack, national, same old national, us politics, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags:

National seem to be determined to transform itself from a large party into a smaller party such are the issues it is focussing on.

First it was Tahrs.  Kiwis’ god given right to hunt these imported beasts was going to be taken away.  Or so the gun tooting hunting brigade thought.  And it did not seem to matter that all that was happening was that an excessive number of them were being culled because they were wrecking sensitive conservation areas.

The latest is guns.  National seems to think that there is a NRA type audience out there just waiting to get involved in politics and behind a party that will protect their constitutional right to bear arms.  Oops wrong country.

Which really makes you wonder what genius came up with their latest campaign.

A firearms forum? What will they be discussing?

https://twitter.com/AndrewRiddell1/status/1049604653694955520

That is about the most rational reason I can think of for the meetings, all 30 of them.

As far as I am aware gun laws are pretty settled and there is no clamour for major change.

I had hoped we were going to avoid the worst excesses of the US culture wars.  Looks like National wants to embrace them.

125 comments on “National’s firearms forums – what could go wrong? ”

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  1. Booker 1
    10 October 2018 at 7:58 am

    We all knew National looked to the Republican Party for inspiration, and Key was on a mission to turn NZ into another US state, but seriously, gun forums?!

  2. mac1 2
    10 October 2018 at 8:21 am

    Local National MP here is offering a public meeting with Scott Simpson, MP for Coromandel, National spokesperson on workplace relations and safety, on the subject of “upcoming changes to labour laws and the impact it’ll have on you.”

    Is National conducting a nation-wide campaign aimed at its perceived voter-friendly constituencies?

    Earlier advertising was directed at employers especially, so I don’t think the workers’ side of this issue will be paramount.

    That gives a clue as to where National’s priorities lie.

    I wouldn’t trust, for example, Simon Bridges’ tears over the $5 bn tax surplus as being taken from ‘hard-working workers’ and should have been returned as a further tax cut.

    That $5 bn by the way would nicely pay for the Greens’ idea to increase beneficiary income by 20% which they finally costed at $1.5 bn. It would also afford a greater superannuation for which Grey Power has been advocating, and teacher salary increases.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.1
      10 October 2018 at 11:33 am

      “That $5 bn by the way would nicely pay for the Greens’ idea to increase beneficiary income by 20% which they finally costed at $1.5 bn.”

      That would be a great use of increased spend – an instant cut in poverty rates.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1
        10 October 2018 at 12:13 pm

        Only until the rich-pricks raised prices to capture all that extra money for themselves and that really wouldn’t take them long.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury 2.1.1.1
          11 October 2018 at 1:14 pm

          About a month. Good on them too. It’s their tax dollars as well. God forbid it gets shared around a little

          • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.1.1
            11 October 2018 at 2:46 pm

            Actually, taxes belong to the government.

            The real problem is that a bunch of bludgers (The rich-pricks) have such control over other people through their ownership.

      • Dukeofurl 2.1.2
        10 October 2018 at 1:53 pm

        That $5 bn ?
        The year it covered ended back in July. So very little has labour spending from this years budget. I would say its spent all ready in this upcoming year for announcede budget measures and the financial surprises national left behind ( M Bovis, holiday pay mis calculation. kiwifruit PSA… etc etc)
        Even the last financial year was an extra $700 mill for the increased number of superannuates, this year will be another $700 mill again.

        The Greens extra $1.5 mill for beneficiaries ?, that only 2 years of super from population based increase.

    • Matthew Whitehead 2.2
      10 October 2018 at 6:48 pm

      Not sure what you mean by “finally costed.” Actually the policy has been costed for a while before Marama spoke on it. I love Marama lots, but she did fail to memorize the costs, which despite being a frankly stupid question, it should have been an obviously expected one, too.

      • mac1 2.2.1
        10 October 2018 at 6:56 pm

        Matthew, that is the first I’ve heard that Marama had a costing that she could not remember. The clearing up media remarks from James Shaw did not as as far as I remember mention the costing having been completed.

        All good.

        I hope that the idea of a 20% increase for beneficiaries gets some traction from this government. It would be a Christmas bonus for them even better than the first Labour government’s Christmas bonus.

        • Tuppence Shrewsbury 2.2.1.1
          11 October 2018 at 1:18 pm

          Imagine, petrol hits $3 a litre the same year taxes get raised on it and then beneficiaries only get a 20% pay bump but not teachers or nurses.

          • mac1 2.2.1.1.1
            11 October 2018 at 4:33 pm

            Tuppence, it’s not an ‘either/or’ scenario.

            It could an ‘and/and’.

            The Green initiative would cost $1.5bn. Leaves a bit over to do other socially useful work.

            Secondly, the main driver of the rise in fuel predicted to go to $3/l is the fuel company cartel, not government taxation.

            Teachers and nurses all deserve pay increases. Did I see you fulminating against the National government’s refusal to countenance wage increases to the point where teachers stopped entering into futile negotiations with them; instead, they waited for a socially progressive and reforming government that they would be sympathetic.

            The only trouble with that strategy is that it conflicted with a series of demands left after nine long years of uncaring and lackadaisical government.

            But you know all that, Tuppence.

  3. John Chapman 3
    10 October 2018 at 8:31 am

    Currently there are around 200,000 licenced gun owners in New Zealand of that number around 11,000 follow the feral Kiwi Gun Blog which spouts the ‘they are coming to take our guns line.’ Anyone following the recent anti 1080 campaign won’t have missed some of the violent outpourings from the online hunting fraternity. So there is a heady brew of conspiracy not only to take our guns but carpet bomb the country with 1080 and kill all our game. Why would National want to tap into this? Probably to get there before Winston. But also to make it a wedge issue that will polarise sections of urban and rural New Zealand. The violent misogyny exhibited against Eugenie Sage by sections of the hunting fraternity will be costly in terms of the social licence hunters currently enjoy once urban NZ realises just how feral some of them are and that’s the point at which National are positioning themselves.

    • mickysavage 3.1
      10 October 2018 at 8:41 am

      Do you think there is a net benefit from this John? I can’t see it myself but I am ensconced in an urban liberal bubble.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1.1
        10 October 2018 at 11:38 am

        I’m a regular firearms user and wouldn’t have a bar of those kinds of nutters – and this is the first time I have ever heard of that blog.

        But I live in the heart of anti-1080 country, and there is the odd crazy one about. Not sure they will swing an election though.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1.2
        10 October 2018 at 11:48 am

        It would be interesting to understand the overlap between firearms users / right-wing nutters. There is an overlap, but it is a long way from a universal one.

        National’s move makes you wonder if they have already done some research on this. Or maybe it is just wishful thinking based on USA experience. My experience is that USA gun thinking, and NZ gun thinking, is generally very different. USA has much of of this stupid macho association.

      • John Chapman 3.1.3
        10 October 2018 at 12:01 pm

        Now that Dunne is no longer here the hunting and shooting vote is up for grabs so there are advantages to denying Winston that particular slice of right wing voters that he can potentially add to his tally of the disaffected he courts pre election. There are some changes in our legislation that are badly needed. No one saw Gun City and their heavy marketing to sell more guns particularly military style assaults rifles like the AR 15 and AK 47 derivatives coming. There is clearly a leakage from legitimately held semi autos to those whose purpose in owning one is not to hunt deer. That and the fact that you can legally purchase large capacity magazines but not use them them means that there are some tooled up dudes out there who are not interested in bringing home some deer for the whanau. The Police Association want them banned. If that were to happen it would be interesting to see where National falls on the issue. With Just over 3000 already in private hands you can already hear the howls of outrage. A better way to deal with the issue would be to change the category licence under which they can be held from A to E then they would have to show a reason to own and secure storage which is regularly checked by the police. The same goes for the large capacity mags. They have their place in pest control, deer and goat culling and those that do it in the main already have the necessary licence. I almost forgot our old friend Cameron Slater and the part he’s playing in all of this. Durning the recent anti 1080 campaign he emerged all over some of the hunting FB pages camo’d up with his semi. Cameron loves guns and camo. I’d say his fingerprints are all over this.

    • Dukeofurl 3.2
      10 October 2018 at 8:54 am

      The Kiwi Gun blog page on Facebook , just says it has 2k likes !

      Saying 11,000 ‘follow’ the wordpress site , likely is a boast of 10x

    • Mike 3.3
      12 October 2018 at 4:39 pm

      Hi John. The feral Kiwi Gun Blog here. Actually we are more about campaigning for safer communities.

      New Zealand has very low gun crime. This has remained consistently low – over decades – despite significant population increases.

      We know that literally 99% of the nation’s firearm offences are committed by those without a firearm license.

      The main source of the problem is recidivism.

      ONE offender has 46 separate firearm convictions. Over fifty have been convicted of threatening Police with a firearm more than once. One offender has nine convictions for this. Another has nine separate convictions for possessing an illegal firearm.

      Our worst gun theft was perpetrated by an offender serving a non-custodial sentence for their LAST firearm crime. Fully 9% of our gang members have been charged with five or more firearm offenses.

      We believe that this needs to change. Because…. we are not insane.

  4. Sanctuary 4
    10 October 2018 at 8:32 am

    The infectious disease of US fascism appears intent on claiming another victim.

    Actually, I see Farrar today is peddling a “guest article” of a pile of steaming horseshit from some sort of zero % support Christian conservative outfit.

    Giving oxygen to fundy political parties, trying to agitate the rural gun crazies… You almost suspect the Nat’s are flying balloons trying to whip up support for some sort of fringe loony party they can then send off one of their right wing MPs to lead so they have someone to go into coalition with now ACT is all over.

    • tc 4.1
      10 October 2018 at 9:33 am

      That’s a possibility. Cori Bernardi across the ditch did similar on the Christian angle after being returned as a liberal. Unsure if that’s possible under MMP here however.

      Guns is straight from the republican playbook so let’s see how the msm play this overt ploy to whip out the rhetoric and grab the stage.

      So what’s the next theme after god n guns I wonder.

    • the other pat 4.2
      10 October 2018 at 10:10 am

      of course they are….the N.Z branch of the U.S republican party!!!

  5. cleangreen 5
    10 October 2018 at 8:34 am

    “Do you feel lucky; – well do ya punk”

    That is a perfect example of ‘over the top’ arrogance Judith Collins wants to pervey.

    Typical though isn’t it micky?

    Especially when you place jane Kelsey’s noble efforts to hold a hui about the problems in the current CPTTP trade agreement now. .

    Jane wrote this on Daily Blog today; “We need to grasp the nettle and build momentum for something that is genuinely new and works for us all. -“the goal of our hui in Auckland on 19-20 October – Join us at the hui on What an Alternative and Progressive Trade Strategy Should Look Like online at; itsourfuture.org.nz/hui-2018

    What a wonderful lady Jane is compared to the gun totting Judith Collins.

    On 23 January 2018, negotiations were concluded on the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP).

    The new revisions in the (CPTPP) that David Parker proposed still leave the new (CPTPP) agreement still as a very shaky deal.

    The new replacement for TPPA (CPTPP) still does not protect our country from any costly disputes that powerful corporations will ultimately throw at us;

    NZ taxpayers cannot afford the legal costs.

    Nor can we suffer further erosion and damage to our own sovereign right to govern in the best interests of our citizens.

    Under (CPTPP) we can no longer ensure that our right to health. wealth and wellbeing are fully protected in the future

    Now that is a more noble issue than gun control right?

    • Michelle 5.1
      10 October 2018 at 9:08 am

      yes Cleangreen Jane Kelsey has all NZers best interest at heart Judith doesnt have one ( a heart that is )

  6. Incognito 6
    10 October 2018 at 8:42 am

    Reminds me of those ‘free seminars’ promising to offer or teach you something useful and then you come away with a new bed + duvet, but wait there’s more, new pillows as well, for a ridiculous amount of money. The NFF is a sales pitch bordering on a con and all completely legal so BAU for National. I do wonder what revving music they play at those meetings; Ennio Morricone would be my choice.

  7. Dukeofurl 7
    10 October 2018 at 8:46 am

    I wouldnt let Chris Bishop any where near a gun. You wouldnt want it taking out ‘someone’…by accident of course.

    As well they are using Bishop to reach out to gun owners …hes a total latte loving inner city liberal ( for national). And the Hunters would pick up on that. he lists his hobbies as competitive debating after all.

    • Incognito 7.1
      10 October 2018 at 8:52 am

      Competitive debating is just like a gunfight at the choral with only one man left standing after a short & sharp shootout, with all his buddies killed and no friends left. Yup, perfect hobby for a Nat MP.

  8. miravox 8
    10 October 2018 at 8:54 am

    With the demise of United Future, Outdoor Recreation NZ is looking for a new home. National is probably obliging.

    The Nats will have to give something back on conservation and 1080. And of course they’ll have nothing to say about gun shows and guns in the hands of people who go nowhere near hunting animals.

  9. Incognito 9
    10 October 2018 at 8:55 am

    I see from the photos in this post that they’re really targeting a Taylor Swift audience 😉

  10. Heather Tanguay 10
    10 October 2018 at 9:08 am

    Another stab in the dark to try and whip up support for a dying party. They are desperate to find something to become relevant again,
    I would like people to be thinking about the millions of plastic bottles of drinking water leaving our shores everyday.
    With the dire predictions for the future climate, this practise should stop, It is irresponsible to be producing so many plastic bottles and giving our drinking water away.
    David Parker needs to be answering questions about the China Free Trade Agreement and our drinking water.

  11. Ad 11
    10 October 2018 at 9:16 am

    Hard to see many votes shifting out of Waitaki, Clutha-Southland, Invercargill, Kaikoura, or even West Coast-Tasman seats with this move.

    They are European males over 40 so they’re locked and loaded for National.

  12. Cinny 12
    10 October 2018 at 9:52 am

    Awesome….not. Every second weekend Miss 13 has to put up with her dad bitching and spewing lies and mistruths about the government. The tahr, the petrol, the 1080, next time it will be the guns. He even told Miss 11 that Jacinda is going to kill all the puppies, kittens and birds with 1080

    Miss 13 is so over his complaining (only reason he hates the government is because I hate national).

    Last weekend she asked him what good had national done, he was left speechless, couldn’t name one thing.

    He then asked what good things have labour done, she reeled off a list of things important to her (Miss 13 is more educated re politics than her father).

    Then he changed the conversation telling her the country is going to be full of Asians by 2030 so he is moving to Alaska.

    I’ve suggested that next time he complains about the government that Miss 13 points out she is only 13 and he should take his worries to his local MP (nick smith).

    He is an example of the typical European male over 40 locked and loaded for national.

    Personally I thought our guns laws were pretty good, national looking for problems where there aren’t any.

  13. adam 13
    10 October 2018 at 10:32 am

    Just in case you thought it was hard to obtain a rifle in NZ – here a short video explaining how to get a gun licence. Have friends who are eminently sensible to give you a character reference, seems to be the main one which could cause concern for national supporters. Obtaining guns in NZ is and always has been very easy.

    • UncookedSelachimorpha 13.1
      10 October 2018 at 11:44 am

      “Obtaining guns in NZ is and always has been very easy.”

      Not that easy. I have just gone through my licence renewal – it is a fairly thorough check that would weed out a lot of problem people. And that is for someone who has already had their licence for 25+ years, not a new applicant.

      Our checks would certainly weed out a great many of the people who have guns in the USA, who shouldn’t.

      Although I am sure illegal guns can be obtained in NZ – still much less available than in the USA, where almost anyone can go buy one from the local hardware store.

  14. Sacha 14
    10 October 2018 at 10:36 am

    Where did the hunting fraternity’s votes go after United Future was their home for at least one election?

    Are the Nats perhaps trying to nudge Winston First’s vote below the 5% threshold, even at some reputational cost?

  15. Exkiwiforces 15
    10 October 2018 at 11:41 am

    Good god the No Mates Party must be getting desperate, if they are going after the so called “gun vote”.

    NZ has one of the best Firearms Act in the world, but only problem is that the police and the law courts don’t fully inforce the act to the fullest degree and most of not all firearms license holders in NZ know damm well that owning a firearm/s is a privilege in NZ not a god having right as in the States.

    • Dukeofurl 15.1
      10 October 2018 at 11:50 am

      Its a fallacy that the US Constitution has a god given right to Guns – which is fed by the Gun lobby.
      A few states have very strong anti gun laws, and guns are regulated in all sorts of ways. The most you could say from the constitution, as the Supreme court put it, is a
      right to a gun in home.

      From Heller case decision
      ” It also stated that the right to bear arms is not unlimited and that guns and gun ownership would continue to be regulated.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

  16. Michelle 16
    10 October 2018 at 12:43 pm

    Well well we can see where the gnats priorities lie holding a gun forum.

  17. Gabby 17
    10 October 2018 at 12:47 pm

    Wonder if there’s a bolthole billionaire behind it.

  18. mary_a 18
    10 October 2018 at 1:37 pm

    Realising it’s going down the gurgler at a great rate of knots, I’d say Natz in desperation has begun campaigning for the next election, by attempting to drum up support from society’s irresponsible, as well along with its red neck base.

    Without doubt, it’s obvious what section of NZ society Natz is aiming to appeal to! God help us!

    Pity Natz doesn’t concentrate its energies addressing the crisis of impoverishment and homelessness, as well as the crippling failure of the Mental health system, both of which it contributed to during its recent nine year tenure!

  19. Robert Guyton 19
    10 October 2018 at 1:43 pm

    The National Party is using the same “capture the hunting fraternity” strategy used by UnitedFuture. UF have done very well as a result…hang on…!

    • greywarshark 19.1
      10 October 2018 at 1:51 pm

      Or is it appealing to the NRA typology. Or ‘rapture the .unting paternity’ who spend all their time looking down at their feet, with no conciousness of what, why and who is around them. They just shoot themselves in the foot, and spoil the world for the rest of us.

  20. R.P Mcmurphy 20
    10 October 2018 at 2:03 pm

    if everyone has a gun then the police will be given the okay to fire at will! nifty eh?

  21. chris73 21
    10 October 2018 at 2:28 pm

    Does the Green Party still want to: ‘Make private ownership of fully functional semi-automatic weapons illegal.’

    Because if they do then there’d be more than a few people who’d oppose this

    • Ed 21.1
      10 October 2018 at 2:29 pm

      Move to the U.S.A. and enjoy living in a country saturated by gun culture.

      • chris73 21.1.1
        10 October 2018 at 2:36 pm

        Maybe you should move to North Korea and enjoy living in a country that has very strictly controlled gun control laws and has no issue with taking away peoples privileges

        • Ed 21.1.1.1
          10 October 2018 at 2:41 pm

          Semiautomatic weapons have no place in a civilised society.
          People who support their use need close monitoring.

          Here are countries round the world’s policies on semiautomatic guns.
          I’m happy to see my thoughts are shared by Germany . You seem to share the view of the Ukrainian government.

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation

          • chris73 21.1.1.1.1
            10 October 2018 at 2:47 pm

            “Semiautomatic weapons have no place in a civilised society.”

            Says you and who are you to decide?

            “People who support their use need close monitoring.”

            People have died being on vegan diets so I propose that every vegan in NZ should be closely monitored to ensure they’re eating properly

            “I’m happy to see my thoughts are shared by Germany .”

            Your thoughts are also shared by North Korea

            Before you start throwing stats around around you might want to check the homicide rates of Germany v NZ

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

            • Ed 21.1.1.1.1.1
              10 October 2018 at 2:50 pm

              Look at the list of civilised countries above who agree with me.
              I see you’re up to insults already. Clearly you have no argument.
              Dull.
              Dull.
              Dull.

              • chris73 …
                10 October 2018 at 3:08 pm

                You listed Germany and the difference in gun deaths between Germany and NZ is…NZ 1.07 per 100 000 and Germany 1.01 per 100 000

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

                I’d suggest there are a lot better ways to bring the gun deaths down then straight out banning MSSAs

                For instance possession of an illegal firearm sentencing should be imprisonment of at least five years and selling a firearm to an unlicensed person should be as above and so forth

                • You_Fool …
                  11 October 2018 at 12:33 pm

                  Nice to know that you don’t care for about 500 people per year (difference in germany’s rate and NZ’s rate on a population of 5mill)

                  • chris73 …
                    11 October 2018 at 12:48 pm

                    From yesterday:

                    //www.health.govt.nz/our-work/populations/maori-health/tatau-kahukura-maori-health-statistics/nga-mana-hauora-tutohu-health-status-indicators/major-causes-death

                    On the major causes of death in NZ I can’t find anything to do with firearms, maybe you can find it for me

                    Since cause of death in NZ by firearm is very low it would mean that cause of death by semi auto would be even lower

                    Wouldn’t it make more sense, and save more people, if the major causes were concentrated on first instead of something really minor like death by semi auto

                    Or don’t you care about kiwis dying?

            • veutoviper 21.1.1.1.1.2
              10 October 2018 at 2:52 pm

              “People have died being on vegan diet.”

              Exactly and usually from B12 deficiency. The old treatment for this which gave another 6 months of life was chopped raw liver three times a day – ed would love it.

              • Ed …
                10 October 2018 at 3:00 pm

                You guys seem really threatened by people who adopt a plant based diet.
                You are too terrified to research the topic thoroughly.
                You just make puerile barbs.

                Animal agriculture should be stopped.

                It is terribly cruel.
                It is destroying our planet.
                And it is bad for our health.

              • chris73 …
                10 October 2018 at 3:57 pm

                I’ll be honest and say raw liver isn’t high on my list of food options 🙂

                • veutoviper …
                  10 October 2018 at 4:49 pm

                  Nor mine – although I have had it.

                  Cooked chopped liver (aka liver pate) is of course a very traditional Ashkenasi Jewish recipe. I am part Jew so have had it many times and in many forms. I like the introduction to this recipe, LOL – the recipe itself is a bit bland.
                  https://www.myjewishlearning.com/recipe/chopped-liver/

                  And WOW! At the bottom of the page in that link is another link- to a vegan recipe for ‘chopped liver’ using mushrooms and miso! ROFL.

                  https://www.myjewishlearning.com/the-nosher/vegan-chopped-liver-recipe-with-mushrooms-and-miso/

                  • alwyn …
                    10 October 2018 at 6:28 pm

                    ” I am part Jew “.
                    I am curious. Being a Jew is to have a religion surely. It is not a race.
                    I would have thought that you could say that you were a Jew or not a Jew but not that you are “part Jew”.
                    At best you could say that you had some Jewish forbears but that isn’t the same thing.
                    Can you satisfy my curiosity as to whet the phrase is meant to be saying?

                    • Gabby …
                      10 October 2018 at 6:53 pm

                      Are you a yanker going back wally? You’re into the race thing aren’t you.

                    • alwyn …
                      10 October 2018 at 7:08 pm

                      Well Gobby, you maintain your unique status.
                      I have never seen a remark by you that was worth reading. You have a 100% perfect record of making totally stupid comments.

                    • Gabby …
                      10 October 2018 at 7:14 pm

                      Are you a fuckwitted yanker going back wally? Your comments are leading the race to the bottom by quite a margin. How’s the taxpayer’s tit tasting?

                    • alwyn …
                      10 October 2018 at 7:21 pm

                      Gobby.
                      I guess that just adds one more to you unrivalled record of totally stupid remarks.
                      Surely you can manage just a single one that makes some sense?

                    • Gabby …
                      10 October 2018 at 7:37 pm

                      Guessing wally? Apply some academic rigour dammit.

              • Robert Guyton …
                10 October 2018 at 4:04 pm

                People have died from being on a bowel carcinogen meat diet.

                • chris73 …
                  10 October 2018 at 4:14 pm

                  In that case we better monitor them as well 🙂

                  To be fair I was just trying to point out just how dumb Eds argument is, I don’t think vegans, meat eaters or semi auto owners need monitoring

                  Well maybe Ed does but hes a special case

                • veutoviper …
                  10 October 2018 at 4:33 pm

                  I agree, Robert, that people have died from eating too much meat etc, etc. There are a lot of things that are bad for our health. Live is not black or white, or absolute as Ed seems to see everything.

                  I am not anti-vegan or vegetarianism at all* – and I have actually been meaning to post the links above on here re B12 because there is a lot of misinformation out there on the Internet re B12 and plant sources. The UK Vegan Society is considered to be highly credible in their information on this.

                  * In fact here is a link to one of my comments in a conversation that Marty Mars and I had on Monday on this which you may enjoy. LOL.

                  https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-08-10-2018/#comment-1532934

                  I follow a lot of your good work, Robert, so keep it going; and I also enjoy your ‘contributions’ at a certain blog down your way!

                  • Robert Guyton …
                    10 October 2018 at 5:38 pm

                    Thanks, veutoviper and thanks for the B12 information; that’s very interesting. Processed/adulterated/preserved meat (salami, sausage etc.) seem to be the killers. The WHO says “zero”; that such meat products shouldn’t be in the food pyramid at all.
                    I try to inject some levity and oxygen into that certain blog, but it’s full of “dead zones” where reception is poor or non-existent and they rarely thank me for my efforts 🙂

    • joe90 21.2
      10 October 2018 at 2:36 pm

      They’re not the only ones who want man killers outlawed.

      New Zealand Police Association president Chris Cahill says this isn’t good enough.

      “The Minister is too cognisant of a small group of gun lobbyists, of which the influence on him is out of proportion to the actual views of firearm owners.”

      Cahill says there’s a clash between the police view, the ministerial view, the “vocal and aggressive” gun lobbyists, and the need to enforce an outdated Arms Act.

      “MSSAs are not needed, these things are designed to kill people. I don’t know of any Olympic event where they shoot AR15s.

      “A strong discussion needs to be had over the needs for MSSAs to be available in New Zealand, and if so, who actually needs them.”

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105882611/The-battle-over-semi-automatics-police-frustrated-by-the-law-firearm-owners-frustrated-by-police?cid=app-android

      • chris73 21.2.1
        10 October 2018 at 2:44 pm

        Here is one of the problems

        This is a MSSA:

        https://www.guncity.com/223-ranger-ar-15-m4-16-barrel-e-cat-244144

        and this is an a-cat:

        https://www.guncity.com/223-bushmaster-16-xm15-327550

        Second problem is how many firearms deaths are attributed to MSSAs in comparison to others, I don’t know but I wouldn’t mind betting they’d be behind shot gun and rifle deaths

        • joe90 21.2.1.1
          10 October 2018 at 2:53 pm

          There is no problem.

          SA rifles are designed for one thing only, to kill people. Ban them.

          • chris73 21.2.1.1.1
            10 October 2018 at 2:59 pm

            Well thats a silly statement, I mean theres this:

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_BAR

            this:

            https://www.benelliusa.com/waterfowl-shotguns

            and this is so much fun:

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_10/22

            • Ed 21.2.1.1.1.1
              10 October 2018 at 3:02 pm

              As I said, people like you should be closely monitored.
              Guns are fun.
              Yuk!

              • chris73 …
                10 October 2018 at 3:09 pm

                Target shooting with a .22 semi auto is good, cheap fun. You should try it, even with your diet you should be handle the recoil.

                But why don’t you try having a word with Natalie Rooney (you know won silver at the Olympics) about how much fun shooting can be

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Rooney

                • Ed …
                  10 October 2018 at 3:18 pm

                  I agree with joe.
                  Ban semiautomatic guns.

                • Exkiwiforces …
                  10 October 2018 at 3:18 pm

                  I think you are wasting your time on Ed and the four principles that are required for shooting. He reminds me of an old Troop Cdr I once had, who thought that cricket was a barbaric game and that rugby was good to for the mind and soul as it’s good for leadership development etc etc.

                  • chris73 …
                    10 October 2018 at 3:38 pm

                    I’m not against gun control but I just think that banning something isn’t always the answer.

                    Increase penalties absolutely, maybe look at the laws surrounding MSSAs and how they can be easily made cat a available but prohibition doesn’t work and should always be a last resort not a first response

                    • Exkiwiforces …
                      10 October 2018 at 4:08 pm

                      NZ has some of the world best Firearms Laws and gun control laws. but my beef is both police and the law courts don’t uphold the full force of the Firearms Act when there has been breaches of the Firearms Act.

                      For example the shenanigans with the Tripple Family over the yrs, crims using firearms and licensed firearms holders who have breached the by failing to secure their firearms, not surrender their firearms once they no longer have a need for one or worst the police failing to go round to a license holder to seize his or hers firearms if they have had their license suspended like want happen in Hastings some yrs back.

                      The Tahr issue a couple of weeks ago was a non a event because the dickheads couldn’t, didn’t or want to enforce law at the time of only having 10k Tahr in the Southern Alps not double or triple amount. Now the No Mates Party is trying to make an issue out of the NZ Firearms Act, for what for? This is a non event at someone or persons from the No Mates Party desperately trying to stay in the news or in a job atm.

                    • chris73 …
                      10 October 2018 at 4:11 pm

                      “police and the law courts don’t uphold the full force of the Firearms Act when there has been breaches of the Firearms Act.”

                      Yeah I think thats where the problem is as well

      • Exkiwiforces 21.2.2
        10 October 2018 at 2:59 pm

        There is Competition shooting aka Service Rifle Match Shooting 100m to 500m plus depending on the cal used which involved’s a number shooting disciplines and shooting positions. Theses competitions are open to both men and women with a numbers of classes and sub classes from Combine Services, Ex Combine Services, Non Combine Services (People without a Military or Police background), Cadets and Non Cadets.

  22. Gosman 22
    10 October 2018 at 3:53 pm

    Again this is evidence of National attempting to outflank NZ First. I think the strategy is to try and weaken the coalition cohesion by targeting the right wing supporters of NZ First with the eye to spook Winston. It may or may not work but it is a viable political strategy.

  23. Robert Guyton 23
    10 October 2018 at 5:32 pm

    “The National Party is doing some work around the penalties for criminal use of firearms particularly by gangs.

    We want to make it harder for gangs to get firearms and easier to hold them to account when they do. This makes our communities safer and that’s a real focus for the National Party. However we must always work to find the right balance, and we will be very careful not to impinge on the rights of legitimate firearms users.

    As part of these efforts Alastair Scott has been exploring ideas to look at raising the penalties for possessing and using sawn off rifles and shotguns. The feedback coming through from legitimate firearm users and the various associations has been very clear and very helpful and will be reflected in any legislative proposal.

    We will listen and we will address your concerns. The current proposal is an idea and has not been discussed by the National caucus yet, nor has any bill been entered in the Parliamentary ballot. The draft that Alistair has circuited for feedback will need to be changed to focus more on penalties instead of a permitting system before we consider it further. We will make sure we get the balance right and we will make sure legitimate users aren’t adversely affected.

    Our Police spokesperson is very keen to engage with licenced firearm owners. Later in the year along with local National MPs he will be holding a series of “National Firearms Forums” where licenced firearms owners will have the opportunity to meet with him and in some cases our Justice spokesperson Mark Mitchell. The forums will be a great opportunity for licenced firearm owners shape our policy going into 2020. The sessions will primarily be held in the evening to allow people to attend after work and will be held in as many parts of the country as feasibly possible.

    Hon Todd McClay MP
    MP for Rotorua”
    WO

    • woodart 23.1
      10 October 2018 at 6:19 pm

      I cant believe how stupid this is. sawn off rifles and shotguns=gang member. unmodified semi-auto=law abiding good guy. how foolish is that misconnect.

    • Graeme 23.2
      10 October 2018 at 6:54 pm

      “The draft that Alistair has circuited for feedback will need to be changed to focus more on penalties instead of a permitting system before we consider it further.”

      What does Mr McClay mean by a “permitting system”? Is this a euphemism for registration of all firearms, which is really what is needed. Whatever it was, it didn’t fit the narrative.

      The firearms regime we’ve got is pretty got for regulating the licensed, generally law abiding, users. However, police and society have no idea where a firearm came from and went to, or even how many firearms there are. There’s a lot of opposition to registration from the gun lobby but it’s like people who object to water meters, you have to ask why don’t they want it / them?

      • Gabby 23.2.1
        10 October 2018 at 7:00 pm

        It’s almost as if they have a nice wee business flogging off firearms and reporting them ‘stolen’. Maybe Todge McLazy wants to help out some mates.

        • Graeme 23.2.1.1
          10 October 2018 at 8:28 pm

          Dollars to donuts someone is making a wee bit out of the current system. All the firearms in un-licensed hands have to come from somewhere, and it’s seems that there’s more than is being stolen, including those that are *stolen*

          But there’s no way of knowing where firearms are. There’s a requirement for a seller to sight a firearms license, but no requirement for the sale to be recorded.

  24. patricia bremner 24
    10 October 2018 at 5:52 pm

    Not many women at that meeting I notice. They may lose votes.. just saying.

  25. Ed 25
    10 October 2018 at 7:23 pm

    New Zealand.
    A country full of cowboys.
    Very few regulations.
    And no teeth to regulate the few rules that do exist.

    “New Zealand’s only large-scale American style feedlot has been “technically non-compliant” for three months but is yet to be fined or prosecuted.”

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018666250/massive-nz-feedlot-non-compliant-for-months

  26. Chris T 26
    11 October 2018 at 9:05 am

    There is a certain irony in people slagging off Dunne about guns, when his Labour party replacement spent years demanding all cops should carry pistols on their hips.

  27. Pete 27
    11 October 2018 at 12:10 pm

    Maybe it’s being used as a model for their upcoming series, organised and run by Chris Bishop, about tobacco use in New Zealand.

  28. R.P Mcmurphy 28
    12 October 2018 at 10:45 pm

    has bishop shot soymon in the foot yet?

  29. Philj 29
    13 October 2018 at 11:09 am

    National gets its mojo, and some policy from the USA. Not entirely silly.

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