Open mike 02/09/2011

115 comments on “Open mike 02/09/2011 ”

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1. happynz 1

   2 September 2011 at 6:40 am

   03:30, lurch, chikka chikka chikka, 4.9

   Good morning!

   Just another morning here in Christchurch.
   • prism 1.1

     3 September 2011 at 11:34 am

     @happynz
     Not bad enough to get out of bed for though I’m told from westside Christchurch. And it’s not likely to break anything. That’s all been done and dusted by past equakes.
     • happynz 1.1.1

       3 September 2011 at 3:47 pm

       And it’s not likely to break anything. That’s all been done and dusted by past earthquakes.

       …yeah, that’s about the size of it…
2. Pete George 2

   2 September 2011 at 7:26 am

   Something more important than politics: NARK the Non-Violent Code of Silence

   Tomorrow at the Stop Child Abuse memorial in Dunedin (12.30pm, Cenotaph, Queens Gardens) I’m going to speak about the unspoken problem – men’s non-violent code of silence.

   Non-violent men are at least as a big a part of the problem as violent men, through their complicity of silent approval.

   Cherie Kurarangi Sweeney has spoken up with the NARK campaign, and she is getting a lot of support – mostly from women.

   Non-violent men need to NARK too, more than anyone.
   • clandestino 2.1

     2 September 2011 at 7:58 am

     I hope you mean non-violent men who have someone to nark on, and not just most of us in general. I’m certainly not complicit and 111 is always one thumb away.
     • Pete George 2.1.1

       2 September 2011 at 9:50 am

       If a non-violent man has never listened to another man talking about his viiolent behaviour without speaking up about it then he is not a part of the problem.

       If non-violent men bite their lip, cringe inside and turn away in silence then they are a part of the problem.

       This can be hard to accept, it was for me, but it needs to be said.
   • Treetop 2.2

     2 September 2011 at 3:27 pm

     PG “Anger is an emotional response to discomfort.” “Stop and think before you react when angry.” I would like to see magnets sent to every home with the above comments including a free helpline number where people can be connected to the most appropriate agency.

     “Be a nark when you know of harm” or similar worded magnet would help to reinforce that narking when violence is occurring especially where children are involved is necessary to protect them from harm, would be a direction I would go in.

     Money to print political party manifestos but not to prevent child murder/manslaughter is so disgraceful.

     I believe that neglect causes abuse and abuse causes either a physical and/or a emotional/psychological injury or a fatality.

     Stress due to the cost of living or illness also plays a part as well as intergenerational abuse, but this is no excuse for violence, however some people are unable to change without intensive resources.
3. Tiger Mountain 3

   2 September 2011 at 7:53 am

   Shonkey missing in action again on Radio NZ this morning re the new Hagar book. If there were any journalists with guts the Beehive theaterette seats would all be empty for a couple of weeks while they went and did some proper research. TV equipment would be mysteriously faulty, John who? editors would say until the PM shows some due respect and deigns to appear more regularly for open media discussion rather than either managed “spout and run” or not fronting at all.
   • Blue 3.1

     2 September 2011 at 9:04 am

     NZ’s media think that John Key is there to be fawned over, not questioned.

     As long as his PR staff keep them well-supplied with fluffy stories and photos, they’re not too fussed over him ducking any serious issues. Serious issues are boring, don’t ya know – much better to have a big pic of Key with a dog/child/famous person wearing his signature cheesy grin.

     It sells better than actually having to do something called ‘journalism’.
     • Banter 3.1.1

       2 September 2011 at 9:35 am

       You mean like this :

       http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/election-poll/5551633/PM-trusted-to-babysit-the-children
       • aerobubble 3.1.1.1

         2 September 2011 at 11:04 am

         John Key is a class clown.
       • William Joyce 3.1.1.2

         2 September 2011 at 11:34 am

         What a load of bollocks! You have to despair about the state of the MSM.
         Why would you expend time and money to ask voters this sort of question?
         It perpetuates the “personality over policy” evil that is undermining our democracy.
         Makes me want to pull the covers over my head with a torch, a good book and a nice bourbon.
         *sigh*
         • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.2.1

           2 September 2011 at 12:42 pm

           Why would you expend time and money to ask voters this sort of question?
           It perpetuates the “personality over policy” evil that is undermining our democracy.

           You answered your own question.
       • McFlock 3.1.1.3

         2 September 2011 at 12:58 pm

         oh my god – and the contextual “headlines” menu on the right brings up “John Key a Hit with Female Voters” from July. The man is the sexiest, most sensitive, and most trustworthy politician in NZ, according to the supposedly impartial pollsters. Better than a Big Brother, because you’re allowed to date him!
           
            
         Fairfax are becoming the new Pravda.
       • Ianupnorth 3.1.1.4

         2 September 2011 at 3:06 pm

         First class shit! I’d rather have Uncle Hone, even though my kids are pakeha – at least they would learn something from him.
     • AAMC 3.1.2

       2 September 2011 at 11:44 am

       I thought the “I’d be a bit disappointed if one of my ministers was caught vomiting” was the hight of class and leadership. I was surprised that made it through, probably appeals nicely to his good old bloke voter base…
4. uke 4

   2 September 2011 at 8:02 am

    
   Top US Corporations paid CEOs more than they paid in taxes
    

   Corporate excess and tax dodging is a time-honored tradition in America. Indeed, it is a matter of public record that many of the largest corporations pay no taxes at all. The IPS report, however, comes at time when budget deficits at the federal and state level have been exploited to implement massive cuts in social services and worker pay, all on the grounds that there is simply “no money.”
   The IPS found that the 25 CEOS who were paid more than their companies paid in taxes took home on average $16.7 million a piece. This is 50 percent more than the average CEO compensation for S&P 500 companies, of $10.8 million. These 25 companies received a tax rebate of, on average, $304 million.
   Verizon CEO Ivan Seidenberg was compensated to the tune of $18.1 million in 2010, even as the company received a $705 million tax refund. “In effect,” according to the report, “every Verizon phone customer paid more in federal telephone excise taxes than Verizon paid in federal income taxes.”
    
   • Herodotus 4.1

     2 September 2011 at 8:51 am

     the same was applicable to Banking bonuses after the bailouts
     http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHURVoSUqpho
     http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2867946/As-RBS-dishes-out-13bn-in-bonuses-we-ask-whether-they-deserve-it.html
     We are all serfs working for a few elite, and most are unawarem of this
     So who did the stimulus packages 1,2 (and most probably 3) as well as the bailouts in the US, EU and most other countries assist excl Iceland ???
     http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America:_Freedom_to_Fascism
5. Bored 5

   2 September 2011 at 8:06 am

   Friday is a great day to plan what to do with the well earned time off. I will be looking at the fruits of spring this weekend out around the hills searching out suitable places to seed guerilla style. Here in NZ we need never go short of food but it does behove us to look for non market based methods of replenishment, because lest we forget we have hungry children en masse in our poorer communities. The dollar based food and goods distribution has failed them.

   What if the dollar and market were to fail you? How would you feed and warm yourself? Better get thinking because the scenario is entirely plausible. Those great military planners the German Bundswer (the same people responsible for Blitzkreig and Tiger tanks) have this to say on the chances of this event….

   http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-08-30/complete-english-translation-german-military-analysis-peak-oil-now-available

   Be prepared.
   • uke 5.1

     2 September 2011 at 8:21 am

     Out of interest, what are you planning to plant?
      
     PS. You may already know, but there are also lots of wild foods growing in town belts and forest margins.
     • Jim Nald 5.1.1

       2 September 2011 at 11:37 am

       is that for real ??
       maybe we should get city councils to approve planting them on a wide scale.
       with another term of this lot in power, the fuschsias will be enthusiastically feasted on.
       we could keep this lot in power and look forward to being truly fuchsiased.
       • AAMC 5.1.1.1

         2 September 2011 at 12:16 pm

         That new foo bill, linked here recently, don’t have it with me on my phone, would suggest councils may not be that supportive of us growing much food on their land. Get in the way of monsanto’s profits.
       • uke 5.1.1.2

         2 September 2011 at 12:16 pm

         In our household we get most of our leafy greens in the form of wild radish, wild turnip, puha, and chickweed.
          
         IMO I think at least 50% of NZ sports fields should be converted into garden allotments. Unfortunately, in Wellington we have several councillors who are dead-set on astroturfing all the sports fields. Can’t grow cabbages on plastic astroturf.
         • Gareth 5.1.1.2.1

           2 September 2011 at 6:28 pm

           You’d be better off growing out the hutt anyways, the place was awash with market gardens for years, I’ve got over a metre of silt loam at my place in Taita. I can grow anything even had edible strawberries against the house on the north side over winter….
           • uke 5.1.1.2.1.1

             2 September 2011 at 9:11 pm

             Yeah we have been thinking about moving to Otaki (friends tell us they have never found the bottom of the topsoil yet), but the Hutt could be the go from what you’re saying…
             • Gareth …

               3 September 2011 at 5:19 am

               Otaki is better, cheaper housing and a warmer climate give you more range…. But on the flat in Naenae, Taita & Pomare is certainly the best area south of Horowhenua…
     • Bored 5.1.2

       2 September 2011 at 6:42 pm

       Great link thanks Uke, find most of those mentioned but thats a bonus for people who dont know whats what. I will be planting the JB spuds, jerusalem artichokes, and some carrots. Got broad beans in the garden, plus beet and celery. Cold frame has the zuchinnis, tomatoes and spring brassicas going plus some amaranth. Gonna direct seed spring onions, beetroot and radish…got to keep the girls (hens) off. Runner beans to plant October.

       In a city garden there is no reason you cant grow allyour greens but you cant expect to feed yourself a lot more, so you will always be buying carbs and protein from the shop, damn it.
       • uke 5.1.2.1

         2 September 2011 at 9:13 pm

         Whoah – the vege garden king! You’re inspiring me to go and turn over some of those fallow patches and do some planting tomorrow.
   • AAMC 5.2

     2 September 2011 at 12:06 pm

     I do find it hard to understand why every school, particularly every decile one school doesn’t have a dozen fruit trees on it’s grounds. Or, I noticed as I drove past a recently upgraded state housing complex, whole bunch of new planting, nothing that produces food.

     What you planting Bored? And what sort of places, how do you avoid council sprays and mowers?
     • marsman 5.2.1

       2 September 2011 at 12:45 pm

       Fruit trees at schools. Great idea! Even a vegetable and herb garden, teaching basic survival skills.
       • AAMC 5.2.1.1

         2 September 2011 at 1:06 pm

         Or even simply picking an apple at luck time cause mum didn’t put one in your lunch box
         • Jim Nald 5.2.1.1.1

           2 September 2011 at 1:34 pm

           If I were back at school today, with the foresight of a wiser, more experienced and knowledgeable head and the aim of being prepared for the future, I would want to have some valuable life skills imparted like being taught home science (eg how to cook, and especially to make the most of my budget) and garden science (eg how to grow food in the garden).

           Btw, there were (still are?) feijoa trees at the school which my nephew went to. There was a feijoa tree or maybe more near the rector’s house. I used to pick him up after school to find him sucking feijoa and drenched with them (too sour for me but lotsa Vit C!). This was at Southwell Boys (Hamilton) … I think his mum spent a bit to have him schooled there!
           • AAMC 5.2.1.1.1.1

             2 September 2011 at 2:54 pm

             There’s a fijoa tree at my sons school, it just that he kept gettin in trouble for eating them. Go figure..

             But there should be enough to go round the school, and as you say, they could then take them into the kitchen and turn them into things.

             There is a garden to table initiative in some schools, but fruit am nut orchards in every school I reckon, given the already available space.

             They probably wouldn’t want the kids climbing the trees. And wouldn’t want to deprive the local Woolworth o ita profits.
             • hellonearthis …

               2 September 2011 at 3:06 pm

               Totally, they should remove imported trees and plant natives or food bearing trees.
               I went to a small school (40 kids total) and the Fijoa was awesome when it was in season.
               • Jim Nald …

                 2 September 2011 at 5:17 pm

                 Hahmmm, with the current lot in power, there are lotsa nuts and fruit in Cabinet.
                 But the advice is to avoid going near them, let alone touch them.
                 • Gareth …

                   2 September 2011 at 6:37 pm

                   I’m in the landscaping trade, You’ll be pleased to know that in the last two new schools I’ve landscaped have had orchards consisting of apples, pears, plums, peaches, lemons, apricots and grapes and the local body in Upper Hutt have planted numerous nut trees.

                   That said near my place in Taita there are around a dozen peach trees planted in the railway land, last year I collected @ 20kg from them for bottling, the remaining fruit rotted on the trees.

                   Trouble is the skill of preserving foods when they are cheap and plentiful is dying fast. I pickle cauliflower cabbage broccili carrott pepper as well as bottle fruit. It’s not hard and it makes a difference when you’re feeling the pinch. How we get people back into this I don’t know.
                 • davidc …

                   2 September 2011 at 6:43 pm

                   Eating a school feijoa is its own punishment! god those things are disgusting!
                   • Bored …

                     2 September 2011 at 6:46 pm

                     We need a Friday gardening column……..
     • Bored 5.2.2

       2 September 2011 at 6:45 pm

       Off site pumpkins go well in water courses / gullies, spud peelings seem to grow anywhere, toatoes like hot spots with good moisture, pretty much every extra seedling can find a home. Whoever picks them good luck, well spotted.
       • Gareth 5.2.2.1

         2 September 2011 at 7:01 pm

         Trouble is those that need them most don’t spot them… Hell there are lots of people the that don’t know what a potato plant looks like…

         I hate to say it but there really is no excuse not to be able to supplement your diet with homegrown vege, You need bugger all room and if you’ve got lawn you could have a years worth of spuds instead.
         My grandparents were much worse off than most people now but they grew there own food, same goes with my family in law in eastern Europe, they eat well on wages of less than 400nzd per month by growing and preserving there own food.

         People here have become to dependant on the super market to get there food.
         • Vicky32 5.2.2.1.1

           2 September 2011 at 7:14 pm

           I hate to say it but there really is no excuse not to be able to supplement your diet with homegrown vege, You need bugger all room and if you’ve got lawn you could have a years worth of spuds instead.

           You seem a wee bit judgemental, there Gareth. My ‘excuses’ are an uncooperative landlord who believes that anything other than lawn is untidy and therefore a breach of the tenancy agreement – and the fact that I am 154 cm tall, 43 kg in weight, and have a disability/disease that means that digging and planting are beyond me. I’d love a garden – have you got someone who’ll create it for me for free? If the answer’s no, then don’t judge everyone by your own abilities.
           • Gareth 5.2.2.1.1.1

             3 September 2011 at 5:11 am

             There are several excellent books available about no dig gardens available, or it’s amazing what you can grow in a bucket on your porch,
             It’s a common misconseption that gardening requires alot of digging and is too much hard work,
             Whilst you may not be able to have an A1 show vege patch, if you can put a seed in the ground you can grow veges.
             It’s amzing how much food you can get off a cherry tomato or Zucchini growing in a pot, certainly enough to make a difference.
             If you,re in the Hutt valley I would be more than happy to supply some old planter bags full of recycled potting mix.
             • Bored …

               3 September 2011 at 8:09 am

               Good work and kind offer Gareth. Nice to see people like yourself and Uke getting practical and helpful. Lifts the level and spirits. Vicky see if you can get some assistance to get things growing because the upkeep is easy.
             • Vicky32 …

               4 September 2011 at 12:53 am

               If you,re in the Hutt valley I would be more than happy to supply some old planter bags full of recycled potting mix.

               I wish I was in the Hutt Valley for so many reasons, Gareth… and thank you so much for the advice! My late father had a wonderful vege garden, and in defiance of the Rotorua council he even kept chickens.. That was in the 1960s and we lived in the CBD! (He was an early survivalist and our neighbours thought he was a nutbar.. The apple doesn’t fall far etc, hey?)
6. kriswgtn 6

   2 September 2011 at 8:59 am

   hhahahah enjoy

   http://i.imgur.com/CZhIH.png
7. William Joyce 7

   2 September 2011 at 9:01 am

   I was thinking of buying my mother a mobility scooter but I think I will put a bid in for one of the Ministerial BMW’s that are up for tender.
   I think she will appreciate the heated seat.
    
   Anyone else thinking of putting a bid in? You’ve got until 4 pm today.
   BTW – are these the “asset sales” that will reduce our government debt? Perhaps I only need to buy 49% of a BMW. Perhaps we can create consortia of people from Otara, Manurewa or Canon’s Creek who can each buy less than the 10% cap and together 49% means that they could timeshare a car.
    
   A sort of community bemmer that is big enough to get the extended family into and go for day trips to Karori or Remmers to see how the other half lives (did I say other half – I mean 1%).
   It could be a called “The Road Trip of Aspiration” for those from a single parent state house who want to grow up to be rich by fucking with other peoples economy and jobs by speculating on their currency. (all to the tune of “I want to be a gangster bankster”
   • Jim Nald 7.1

     2 September 2011 at 11:33 am

     … other half lives – you mean Oz? (oh, aspirationally 99% there soon)
   • prism 7.2

     2 September 2011 at 1:27 pm

     @William Joyce I think some of the BMWs have back massagers too. Or is that the newer ones? Mother would probably like that touch of luxury.

     The idea of setting up groups of investors, if run to rules with treasurers who don’t abscond with the dosh, would be a good way for those ordinary mums and dads to amass enough money to share in the profitable investments that at present just float above their reach. Throw up a rope with a grappling hook on it and haul these financial opportunities down so we can get a hand on them I reckon.
     • Colonial Viper 7.2.1

       3 September 2011 at 8:09 am

       Community investors need to start up (or take over) local businesses and make them democratic enterprises. The workers become the owners, and profits made yearly are controlled by the workers. This is how communities start controlling their destinies, taking power back from distant board rooms.
       • prism 7.2.1.1

         3 September 2011 at 8:41 am

         @Colonial Viper – This sounds good but can be hard to do in practice. I spent a considerable time talking to a bloke last night about community initiatives, swopping my own experiences also. He had been in on the start of a group community project, which is still operating successfully, and had to leave before it started because he couldn’t bear the interminable discussions. And these will happen throughout the life of the business whenever there is a new idea. Once started, many of those involved will cling like limpets to the same model, carried out in the same way, despite obvious signs of diminishing use and returns. So there needs to be good, reliable, informed leadership with consultation with the community but to leave it to the community to run it, is like that saying “When it’s everybody’s responsibility, it’s ends up nobody’s’.

         So a good management committee and a practical manager need to be in place with a mission wide enough to make necessary decisions and have them respected and followed by the others.
         And some might have to be excluded from working in the shop if they won’t follow the controls and systems. It won’t work as a viable business unless there are sanctions and the need to have these must be realised, though the use would be rare.

         There are many who go for a great ideal or dream and who can’t concentrate on fitting them into the practical needs. In the end if the operation fails, largely as a result of them, they are sad because their dream didn’t work never considering any contribution on their own part, but they lack the commitment to make it work – to find a better way of doing business and to flourish.
         • joe90 7.2.1.1.1

           3 September 2011 at 9:07 am

           Sigh…apathetic sheeples organise, nah. Trotter points to just how redundant the people have become in the political process when he notes how between 1984 and 1990 Labour party membership went from 85,000 to less than 10,000.
         • Colonial Viper 7.2.1.1.2

           4 September 2011 at 10:49 pm

           and had to leave before it started because he couldn’t bear the interminable discussions. And these will happen throughout the life of the business whenever there is a new idea. Once started, many of those involved will cling like limpets to the same model, carried out in the same way, despite obvious signs of diminishing use and returns. So there needs to be good, reliable, informed leadership with consultation with the community but to leave it to the community to run it, is like that saying “When it’s everybody’s responsibility, it’s ends up nobody’s’

           These kinds of organisations can be extremely quick and rapid moving ones. A CEO and senior management team is voted in by the workers on an annual basis, from amongst their own membership. These senior management powers have significant executive powers to conduct business according to priorities and policies set annually by the shareholders (who also happen to be workers themselves).

           Any extraordinary events or changes in direction would need to be put to the shareholders, perhaps via an elected Board of Directors (some of whom will also be ordinary workers).

           In other words, a democratically run and owned workplace is not about daily committee meetings where everyone has an equal say, it is about getting a job done to goals and priorities agreed to say once or twice a year, and where management is accountable to the owners (i.e. the workers) for their performance perhaps monthly.
8. Afewknwothetruth 8

   2 September 2011 at 9:04 am

   ‘since the September 11 attacks’

   That should read ‘since the September 11 controlled demolition of three buildings (at a profit) to provide a false flag pretext for invasions of states vital to US companies, such as Halliburton, in the control of global oil supplies’.

   NZ has been part of a global empire which achieves its goals via lies, manipulation and violence since the first British government was established here. Nothing has changed in over 160 years.

   [lprent: too far off topic. Moved to OpenMike ]
   • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 8.1

     2 September 2011 at 9:07 am

     Fuck you are a dick.
   • nadis 8.2

     2 September 2011 at 9:50 am

     “September 11 controlled demolition”

     Comments like this are why returning mental health patients to the community rather than institutionalizing them is a bad idea.
     • travellerev 8.2.1

       2 September 2011 at 11:53 am

       Oi Gormy and N,

       You’ll feel right at home here !!!
       • The Voice of Reason 8.2.1.1

         2 September 2011 at 12:16 pm

         Thanks for the link, Ev, it’s a pretty kewl site. I particularly like how the blogroll is divided into ‘conspiracy theorists’ and ‘voices of reason’! And no, before anyone asks, it has nothing to do with me, first time I’ve heard of it.
         • travellerev 8.2.1.1.1

           3 September 2011 at 11:15 am

           LOL, Have you seen the voices of reason links? Either their non existent or they have exactly the same style as the Nutjobnz site. But I agree it fits your emitonal rather than factual debating style.
     • johnm 8.2.2

       2 September 2011 at 11:59 am

       Hi nadis
       That a controlled demolition happened is supported by many professionals in the U$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for the following reasons:
       1. Very tall buildings hit by aircraft in the past did not collapse despite the damage to their tops
       2. The Towers fell at the speed of “Free Fall” something that only happens with controlled demolition and they fell neatly into their base levels!!!
       3. Traces of explosive material have been detected in the rubble.
       4.WTC7 was not hit yet collapsed in the exact manner of a controlled demolition.

       The above is not to say they were not hit by airliners.

       AFKTT is backed in his conclusions by Richard Gage who heads a large body of professionals who looked into this historic event.

       AFKTT is not a dick or a mentally disturbed person although seeing the realities of our f*cked up World could lead to mental disturbance!
       • The Voice of Reason 8.2.2.1

         2 September 2011 at 12:25 pm

         1. So what?
         2. No, they didn’t.
         3. No, they haven’t.
         4. WTC7 was hit. By a falling building.
          
         Righto, are we all ready for another 200 comment, evidence free circle jerk from the tinfoil hat brigade?
         • Tiger Mountain 8.2.2.1.1

           2 September 2011 at 1:04 pm

           This won’t be the last mention of 911 TVOR, I am not a major supporter of the ‘controlled collapse’ theories or of the official “just accept what happened” school, and am happy to leave it to those with more scientific expertise and ultimately time to argue the toss. But there is enough element of doubt there to keep a free thinker interested.

           It is just hard to believe that the amount of fuel on the airplanes had enough oomph to cause that type of damage in that particular way to three, count’em, buildings. It will be interesting to see if the international meeting comes up with any new leads.

           The biggest stretch is the why, but who would have thought a lot of things would have been done by the USA ruling class in relation to the way they interfere with both the US and other sovereign states-Chile 1973, Cuba-bay of pigs (beard drop out powder in Fidels boots, and all heh), JFK assassination, Iran, Iraq,Vietnam, China, USSR etc. you surely know the roll call.

           International capital has operated beyond borders for many years, why should capital’s political representatives have genuine loyalty to a nation state beyond convenient tactical reasons. It is partly the point of Hagar’s book from the extracts I have read.
         • Andrew Scobie 8.2.2.1.2

           2 September 2011 at 1:21 pm

           oh god not again. think ill stay on the sidelines for this one.
           • mickysavage 8.2.2.1.2.1

             2 September 2011 at 1:41 pm

             lprent maybe we should have a weekly post like Weekend social where the actual events of 9/11 can be debated in depth.
              
             I acknowledge many passionate views on the subject and admit I have not had the time or headspace to thing about the issues but the subject tends to contaminate a lot of threads …
              
             • lprent …

               2 September 2011 at 2:21 pm

               Monthly possibly (weekly seems rather too much)? Entering comments disables after a month…

               But I’d prefer that it just confined itself to OpenMike. In the absence of new information I literally can’t see what else there is to argue about. We just seem to have people going over the same material without any resolution (which is why I can’t be bothered arguing about it).

               I’ve already looked at the available data and links for alternate explanations several times and find them unconvincing. It reminds me of the other “old chestnuts” (as Lyn puts it) of the net. Like if there were lunar landings, or who was the better captain of the Enterprise (as I was reminded about last night).

               Unfortunately in this post it is kind of on-topic (even though I think it is a fatuous sidetrack) because it bears on why we have troops in Afghanistan. But I’m sure that there will be some comment threads in here that I will bump as delving outside the post.
               • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell …

                 2 September 2011 at 4:32 pm

                 Go to Ev’s site if you want to discuss nothing but 911 and depleted uranium and the international banking conspiracy. Since Ev thinks everything in the world comes back to these three issues, that is all that is there.

                 And she could do with the traffic.
                 • travellerev …

                   3 September 2011 at 9:55 am

                   Actually while everybody is welcome of course to inform themselves with the info on my site I am very happy with the traffic as I seem to attract about 30 new readers on average a day according to my stat counter.
               • McFlock …

                 2 September 2011 at 5:03 pm

                 Kirk, obviously.
                  
                 1: He created a cannon out of bamboo and diamonds;
                 2: He wasn’t afraid of taking inter-species cooperation to the next level;
                 3: He hated hippies and nazis with the same intensity;
                 4: anything that offered unfettered fun, peace and joy to his crew was identified as a threat to civilisation that should be immediately destroyed, unless it could prove otherwise pretty damned quickly.
                 • marty mars …

                   3 September 2011 at 10:37 am

                   Kirk for me too – anyone but picard.
           • Colonial Viper 8.2.2.1.2.2

             3 September 2011 at 8:12 am

             Yeah might be time to move on from the Twin Towers and move on to the deliberate demolition of the US Dollar. And deliberate demolition of economic sovereignty in the Eurozone.
       • clandestino 8.2.2.2

         2 September 2011 at 12:39 pm

         Hey nutbarsnz.blogspot.com! Nutbar infestation detected, loss of logic and reason at Threat Level amber!
       • Andrew Scobie 8.2.2.3

         2 September 2011 at 1:32 pm

         Sorry lprent, i know its off topic and this will be my only post on the matter:

         I have actually been waiting for someone to bring up the WTC vs Empire state building (presumed) line. This is a response that i sent to a person i know that asked the same question on FB. I’m just going to paste it all:

         “a number of factors explain why the Empire State Building suffered relatively minor damage while the twin towers were catastrophically destroyed. First, the energy of impact sustained by the buildings differed by orders of magnitude. The B-25 that struck the Empire State Building weighed approximately 21,500 lb (9,760 kg) and was traveling around 200 mph (320 km/h). The kinetic energy it created in the collision was about 30 million ft-lb (40 million Joules).

         The twin towers of the World Trade Center, by comparison, were struck by Boeing 767 airliners traveling over twice as fast and weighing nearly 15 times as much as a B-25. The energy of impact for the two planes ranged from 2 billion ft-lb (2.6 billion Joules) to 3 billion ft-lb (4.1 billion Joules), some 60 to 100 times greater than that absorbed by the Empire State Building. This estimate is also conservative since it does not account for the energy released by the exploding jet fuel, which greatly exceeded the energy released by the much smaller B-25 fuel supply as well. The greater kinetic energy allowed the 767 aircraft to penetrate much further into the twin towers than the B-25 was able to do at the Empire State Building. Most of the B-25 impact was absorbed by the building’s exterior wall leaving very little to damage the interior structure. The 767 impacts, however, not only produced gaping holes in the WTC exterior but also destroyed much of the structural core at the center of each tower.”
9. thejackal 9

   2 September 2011 at 11:20 am

   The National Business Review’s Biased Reporting

   Last Friday I blogged about the National Business Reviews article on Hone Harawira that was inaccurate and misquoted what the Mana party leader had said. Unfortunately similar cases of incorrect reporting are not isolated. The main stream media is awash with inaccuracies, discrimination and subterfuge that discourages proper debate and ensures the public is not properly informed…
   • ianmac 9.1

     2 September 2011 at 2:40 pm

     Not wanting to give Brash airtime but he said that Labour’s canning the Youth Employment Pay caused 13,000 growth in unemployment. What? Why doesn’t anyone challenge that?
     “Dr Brash. Please give us the data for your assertion.”
     Nah. Who cares.
     • McFlock 9.1.1

       2 September 2011 at 2:53 pm

       yeah, tories have brought that up here, too. I believe it’s a rough estimate of a figure Eric Crampton came to. The thing being that if we’re talking 13,000 youth unemployed jobs, then the youth unemployment rate (according to the 13,000 out of 39,000 current youth unemployed) would not have changed significantly as we entered our economic malaise (15% – 18%, as opposed to 15% – 27%), which seems a bit unlikely.

       Haven’t read Cramptoin’s paper, but I find the c3% increase in youth unemployment estimate suspiciously close to a naive “overall unemployment rose c3%, therefore youth unemplyment would rise c3%”. In reality, overall unemployment doubles, so you’d expect youth unemployment to roughly double, if you were doing a simple naive comparison.
        
       The problem is that it’s a retarded assertion that immediately moves the debate into “minimum wages increase unemployment” – even if you win without getting bogged down in calculus, you’re back where you started with “so what are you going to do about youth unemployment?”
       Better to just say “bullshit – move on”.
10. Puddleglum 10

    2 September 2011 at 12:30 pm

    It’s so good to see that the heroes of freedom in Libya (France and the UK) are not backward in coming forward when it comes to a little bit of ‘compensation‘ for their efforts.
11. Lanthanide 11

    2 September 2011 at 12:43 pm

    Surprised no one’s posted about this puff piece yet:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/polls/election-poll/5551633/PM-trusted-to-babysit-the-children

    That little yellow sliver on 0.9 is Don Brash.
    • Puddleglum 11.1

      2 September 2011 at 12:58 pm

      Banter also mentioned the link above.

      The most interesting/revealing/worrying aspect of the poll was that 57.6% would look to Key for financial advice and 5% to Bill English. That 5% is less than for Goff (7.5%). Don Brash is favoured by 4.5%.

      Oddly, in part of the text they claim that Brash is ‘third’ in this category behind English and Key. That is, Goff’s ranking at no. 2 on this dimension is ignored. Quite a telling ‘Freudian slip’.
    • marsman 11.2

      2 September 2011 at 1:01 pm

      The Dom-Post has the big photo of Mr. Sincerity along with the bullshit re the ‘poll’. Just below the photo is a piece by the editor about their new ‘charter of independence and commitment to the highest professional standards.(!!!) Meanwhile the editorial is a patronising smear job on Labour and dog-whistle doubt-casting on The Greens. Wonder if Crosby Textor write these editorials, no wait isn’t Mr Impartial himself, that Hollow Man Richard Long back from Vietnam?
12. joe90 12

    2 September 2011 at 12:48 pm

    Slate: “Never-Wrong” Pundit Predicts 2012 Win for Obama.

    History is on President Obama’s side as the 2012 elections approach.

    And by “history” we mean Allan Lichtman, an American University professor who has gone 7-for-7 at predicting presidential elections since he developed his candidate-picking system roughly two decades ago.

    Lichtman says that based on the 13 criteria he has used to correctly forecast every presidential election since Ronald Reagan’s re-election victory in 1984, Team Obama can rest easy. “Even if I am being conservative, I don’t see how Obama can lose,” Lichtman told US News
13. thejackal 13

    2 September 2011 at 1:29 pm

    Asshole of the Week Award – David May

    As a taxpaying New Zealander who has money invested into the Superannuation fund, I am disgusted at my hard earned dollars funding despicable companies that cause untold death and mayhem around the world…
14. uke 14

    2 September 2011 at 2:34 pm

     
    Welcome to David Cameron’s police state:
     
    30, 000 arrests planned – London neighbourhoods terrorized by police raids
     

    One month after major disturbances were provoked by the August 4 police killing of Mark Duggan in north London, the Metropolitan Police in the capital are intensifying raids on working class communities.
     
    Entire neighbourhoods have been sealed off, with riot police smashing down doors and dragging people away. So far this has resulted in over 2,000 arrests in London alone, averaging approximately 100 a day since the riots began. The media, tipped off in advance, has filmed the build-up, the actual raids and the spectacle of youth being thrown into police vans.
     
    A police source told the Sunday Times that the police are hunting 30,000 people they say were involved in the disturbances. Nationally, 40,000 hours of CCTV footage will be examined and senior police officers are expecting the investigation to last for years.
     
    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      3 September 2011 at 8:15 am

      Out of those 30,000 potential arrests, how many are aimed at the City of London Bankster looters who made of with billions of pounds?

      Oh, none. Just the chavs down the road who nicked 10 quids worth of alcohol. Figures.
15. hellonearthis 15

    2 September 2011 at 2:45 pm

    I hear National are selling off the old BMW’s http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/mnr/mnr-20110901-0858-governments_cast-off_bmws_up_for_sale_this_week-048.mp3

    But wait a 2nd, didn’t John Key list on of the reasons for getting the new BMW’s was because NZ didn’t have enough Limos to cater to the demand of the RWC and the expected numbers of international diplomats.

    Looks like another Key lie.
16. Vicky32 16

    2 September 2011 at 3:13 pm

    Bookmarking
17. The Voice of Reason 17

    2 September 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Still less than what they would have got if they were brown and wearing balaclavas, but it’s a good result anyway.
18. Dave Kennedy 18

    2 September 2011 at 3:42 pm

    Federated Farmers are suggesting that scientists are conspiring to present false information regarding river quality to ensure themselves of future employment.

    http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2011/09/federated-farmers-discredit-waituna.html
    • ianmac 18.1

      2 September 2011 at 4:20 pm

      It seems to be well established pattern by the National Government/ Federated Farmers Dave.
      Denial.
      Rubbish the messenger.
      Ignore the science.
      Key leads by example.
19. thejackal 19

    2 September 2011 at 4:58 pm

    Friday Fun With Photos #14

    Don Cheadle is obviously the best person to play Captain Planet in the movie version of the popular cartoon, hopefully they make his character a nicer guy…
20. davidc 20

    2 September 2011 at 6:50 pm

    Any gossip around the campfire on DPF’s blog that the LP is gonna put something BIG out on Sunday?

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/09/labours_biggest_bribe_ever.html
    • thejackal 20.1

      2 September 2011 at 6:57 pm

      Journalist Katie Bradford just tweeted that Labour completely denies the assertion made in the DF’s blog. Labour has no plans to release EQ policy in CHCH this Friday, on the anniversary of the quake.

      Looks like Farrar’s bullshit holds about as much water as Slater’s recent claim Labour MP’s are ringing him up all the time. What a couple of douche bags!
21. davidc 21

    2 September 2011 at 7:01 pm

    ok but DPF said something would come out on Sunday not this Friday (today or next week?) like Bradford denied..

    so …. ?
    • kriswgtn 21.1

      2 September 2011 at 7:31 pm

      so wot??

      who cares

      hes a fatass liar
      • Ianupnorth 21.1.1

        2 September 2011 at 7:52 pm

        Where’s the like button? Well said Kris!

        I started to read the DPF tripe, but had to quit as it was simply repulsive!
22. McFlock 22

    2 September 2011 at 7:24 pm

    To a certain degree Farrar is just pretending to be a clairvoyant: by keeping it vague all he’s really saying is that there could well be a major policy announcement in the lead-in to an election (wow), on a Sunday (a common occurrence to try and nab slow news days not packed with market reports, and good for the major papers) in September as the first quake anniversary approaches when the govt is taking flak for doing nothing about accommodation prices in the city. . .

    It’s a punt – if he’s right he says he’s got inside knowledge, if he’s wrong then he says LP read his prediction and chickened out from such blatant bribery. And he conveniently ignores the latest govt business bribe, say tax laws.
     
    Frankly, a land swap isn’t a bad idea, and I think was mentioned in the chch interview Brownlee did where he was bollocked by homeowners. I believe Key was at a thing there earlier in the day, but strangely had to leave before encountering any of the peasantry face to face…
    • davidc 22.1

      2 September 2011 at 8:09 pm

      Well its going to be interesting on Sunday to see if anything happens.

      I wonder however about the purposefully incorret denial from Katie Bradford.

      But I love a good concpiracy.

      Have a good Friday evening.
    • lprent 22.2

      2 September 2011 at 11:39 pm

      … believe Key was at a thing there earlier in the day, but strangely had to leave before encountering any of the peasantry face to face…

      What is strange about that? He is always a bit gutless in dealing with people with more on their mind than mindless idolatry.
23. Ianupnorth 23

    2 September 2011 at 7:53 pm

    Saw this on a mates page
    http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/09/25-giant-corporations-paid-their-ceos-more-uncle-sam

    What follows is a list of 25 mega corporations that paid one guy—their CEO—more money than what they spent on their entire federal tax bills last year. The same companies averaged $1.9 billion each in profits—money that was earned, in many cases, by cutting thousands of American jobs.

    Sounds ever so familiar, dairy farmers, etc….
24. William Joyce 24

    2 September 2011 at 8:08 pm

    On the subject of the banks, ceo bonuses, Bank of America etc…

    U.S. Is Set to Sue a Dozen Big Banks Over Mortgages
    The federal agency that oversees the mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is set to file suits against more than a dozen big banks, accusing them of misrepresenting the quality of mortgage securities they assembled and sold at the height of the housing bubble, and seeking billions of dollars in compensation.
    The Federal Housing Finance Agency suits, which are expected to be filed in the coming days in federal court, are aimed at Bank of America, JPMorgan Chase, Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank, among others, according to three individuals briefed on the matter.
    

    
    
    NYTimes Link
    • William Joyce 24.1

      2 September 2011 at 8:41 pm

      A further thought…

      And last month, the insurance giant American International Group filed a $10 billion suit against Bank of America, accusing the bank and its Countrywide Financial and Merrill Lynch units of misrepresenting the quality of mortgages that backed the securities A.I.G. bought.

       
      I know where they can recover some $50 million from a prominent NZdr and a property in Hawaii they slap a court order on.
      Image, an impoverished John Key claiming welfare because of “life style choices”.
      • travellerev 24.1.1

        3 September 2011 at 9:10 am

        Where did you find this quote?
        • Jim Nald 24.1.1.1

          3 September 2011 at 9:26 am

          New York Times, 1 Sep 2011
          Here?
          http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/02/business/us-is-set-to-sue-dozen-big-banks-over-mortgages.html
          • travellerev 24.1.1.1.1

            3 September 2011 at 10:00 am

            Cheers
          • travellerev 24.1.1.1.2

            3 September 2011 at 11:18 am

            Gold!
25. Brett Dale 25

    2 September 2011 at 8:37 pm

    Some of the posts questioning that 9/11 was a terrorist attack, is pretty pathetic. You must have a real chip on your shoulder about the USA to think like that.
    • Colonial Viper 25.1

      3 September 2011 at 8:17 am

      15% of the US population on food stamps. And a real underemployment rate of roughly 25%. Is that more to your liking?
    • travellerev 25.2

      3 September 2011 at 10:51 am

      Au contraire dear Brett,

      It is love for the American, Iraqi, Pashtun victims and all those American, English, Canadian, Dutch and New Zealand  soldiers (the Americans now have more soldiers dying of suicide than dying in battle) who are trying to do the right thing that makes me keep on doing what I’m doing.

      It is love for the brave American first responders who are still dying as the result of those attacks (and not invited to the commemoration of the events when they behaved like heroes) and the citizens of New York the majority of whom want a new and independent investigation.

      It is for  Kristen Breitweiser, Patty Casazza, Lorie Van Auken, and Mindy Kleinberg and Bob Mcgilvaine who lost husbands and sons on that day ansd never got answers to their questions that I will keep on braving riducule and trolling for just so I can get the truth out and and maybe one day we will get a new and independent investigation and justice for the victims
26. prism 26

    2 September 2011 at 11:56 pm

    A name to remember – Polly Higgins. A smart woman who speaks sense with an idea for turning us all from our present collision course. Something concrete to get our teeth into and good for counteracting that ‘But what can we do’ feeling. Book link – http://www.eradicatingecocide.com
    • Jim Nald 26.1

      3 September 2011 at 12:11 am

      Agree. Polly will be giving two more talks – in Auckland on Sunday and Monday.
      Would be good for someone to do a write-up about her work re ‘ecocide’.
      Google her and I have also made a comment previously:

      http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01092011/#comment-370409

      Sunday 4th September 1- 9pm, Auckland
      Eradicating Ecocide
      Earthsong, 457 Swanson Road, Ranui, Waitakere, Auckland
      Please email Helen McNeil, bagend (at) clear.net.nz to book a place ($20 includes dinner)

      Monday 5th September, 7 – 9pm, Auckland University
      Ecocide, the missing 5th Crime Against Peace (Facebook), Auckland
      Lecture Theatre 260-098, Owen Glenn Building, The University of Auckland, New Zealand

      See:
      http://permaculture.org.au/2011/08/18/polly-higgins-speaking-tour-australia-new-zealand-eradicating-ecocide-laws-and-governance-to-prevent-the-destruction-of-our-planet/
      • prism 26.1.1

        3 September 2011 at 9:49 am

        @Jim Nald
        Query – The time for Polly’s Auckland meeting wouldn’t be 1 to 9 pm would it? She would be worn out being on tap for all afternoon and evening. And people turning up at the wrong time wouldn’t be happy.

        I’m guessing that you mean 7 to 9 pm. Though perhaps it’s 1 to 3 or 4 pm, though 1 pm is a bad time being straight after normal lunchtime. I would think in a big city where people have to drive for at least half-hour it would be too early a start. Could you check and confirm on this, thanks.
        • prism 26.1.1.1

          3 September 2011 at 11:31 am

          @JimNald
          I’ve looked up info and it does seem that 1-9pm (if you book for dinner) is the time. It’s a lovely trip to I think the Waitakeres to an eco-village so well worth a visit and to meet this very experienced, good speaker on ways to move our laws to serve our present and future needs to conserve our place and the rest of the world.
        • Jim Nald 26.1.1.2

          3 September 2011 at 11:38 am

          Yo Bro!

          Looks like it will be 7 – 9 pm for Polly’s Monday talk.
          That’s what I can tell from googling (again) and found this:
          http://sustahood.com/eradicating-ecocide-advocate-polly-higgins-speaking-in-australia/2090/?319c1000

          The earlier details were copied from the permaculture.org.au … and you know what our Aussie cossies are like … prolly something they consumed the evening before … or while typing. Haha.
          Oh ok, more seriously, maybe the details were originally handwritten and 1 was misread as 7 and then typed as such.

          I did wonder when I copied and pasted .. but I thought – let’s see if anyone is interested enough and asks 😉

          Have fun. Polly is cool (or ‘hot’ depending on the slang one prefers). “Ecocide” may sound a bit zany or quirky .. but she is anything but that. Polly has real legal – commercial and civil litigation experience – and she is a smart, practical and strategic person. She has a positive, optimistic, generous, cheery and inspirational attitude. Her ideas and words reflect the good sense of where she is coming from – her mind.

          Give her a hug from me. Say it is from the invisible keyboard hands that have been busy drawing attention to her talks about the important issues. And we should get her back for a longer visit.

          Declaration of interest: No commission. Polly’s proposal, research and her qualities stand on their own merits.
          • prism 26.1.1.2.1

            3 September 2011 at 11:52 am

            @Jim Nald – I was talking about Sunday’s times and have worked out why they are 1 to 9 pm – perhaps she can relax and talk to visitors at the eco-village before the dinner in the evening. She seems to have reserves of energy beyond the norm so perhaps she doesn’t need as much time off as others would. I think to her talking to people about her ideas and spreading the word and enthusiasm is not hard work.
          • Jim Nald 26.1.1.2.2

            3 September 2011 at 11:52 am

            argh. .. i meant to say Sunday.
            will check the Sunday starting time via another way.
            • Jim Nald 26.1.1.2.2.1

              3 September 2011 at 11:57 am

              I’ll confirm the starting time when I get a text back. If I don’t hear back in the next couple of hours, I will make a few phone calls to ask.
              • Jim Nald …

                3 September 2011 at 12:16 pm

                Ok, all signs that I can pick up are pointing that there was no mistake.
                I take my comment back about our Aussie cousins. Looks like permaculture is correct.

                Confirming the following and Google tells me the phone number for the contact person for the Sunday event, ie Helen McNeil, is (09) 832 8181:

                Sunday 4th September 1- 9pm, Auckland
                Eradicating Ecocide
                Earthsong, 457 Swanson Road, Ranui, Waitakere, Auckland
                Please email Helen McNeil, bagend (at) clear.net.nz to book a place ($20 includes dinner)

                Have fun at Polly’s talks.

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